Branthwaite looks set to go out on loan

Maybe Burnley will take him after Mee and Tarkowski leaving. You'd think Vincent Kompany would be able to teach him a thing or two. And the Championship is still a good level to play and develop at.

Lee #1,

That's a hell of a shout!

Good idea, Lee, but I think relations between Everton and Burnley are in deep freeze right now.

I would have him any day over Holgate and Keane.

That would be a really good shout, Lee. Kompany was not just one of the best defenders and leaders of his generation, he was a football-playing centre-back comfortable on the ball. And one that scored the odd important goal or two as well.

But I think relations between us and Burnley right now are probably comparable to those between Russia and Ukraine!!!

Obviously it's down to the management but personally I'd like to see Branthwaite and young Warrington closer to the first team. I'm not saying they are ready to play every week but I'd like to see them involved in the first team set-up.

Perhaps loans might be the best thing, so I'll have to leave that to those with more knowledge and better judgement than me.

I totally agree, George. I'd prefer he stayed and that we could see Holgate go on loan forever. He's had a sensational turnaround since Frank arrived from being a totally lazy liability to becoming bang-average.

Obviously we don't see him in training but, if Lampard didn't see enough to play him in that defence last season, then he's not ready... yet.

A loan could do him the world of good. Come back with 40 games under his belt. People forget he only had a handful of starts for Carlisle under his belt before we signed him so he's very inexperienced at any level.

He has the raw ingredients – just needs some exposure to week-in & week-out football. Think about how Reece James, Mason Mount etc did after a full season in the Championship. Even Anthony Gordon – his loan was poor in terms of making an impact but he still came back a better player. Win-win.

Happy to see Branthwaite go on loan for a half-season but would hate to see him sold, as has been suggested elsewhere in the media.

I think another loan for Branthwaite is a good idea, let him make those sloppy mistakes for another team rather than us, and hope he comes back the player his potential suggest he will be.

If City are interested as the media suggests, let's have a straight swap for Zinchenko.

That would be my preference, George, that he stays and gets good training and lots of starting opportunities from Frank Lampard.

But our cockney fella has shown little to no inclination to play the young lads. Let's hope that was just an obvious conservative reaction to the dire straits we were in, and the strange belief in professional football that you must trust the older players to pull you through such trying times – a dubious theory our lot did their utmost to disprove with some utterly shocking displays that are seared into the memory.

We go into the new season with up to 5 subs out of 9 on the bench now a fully implemented part of the rules. But we have yet to see an Everton manager who has the vision and expansiveness needed to embrace the concept without putting two fucking goalkeepers on the bench!

Let's hope Frankie has given this some decent thought and, with the U23s dropping back to U21s, that he makes full use of the fringe youngsters, giving them the game-time they need to develop – not this ridiculous 2 minutes at the end of games...

I'd better stop now. The madness of last season is all flooding back and making me very angry all over again!

I think Branthwaite would be better staying and playing. He is good enough when you look at the other centre-backs in our squad and he would definitely learn from Tarkowski who organises the defence well.

By the way, Michael, didn't Branthwaite get sent against Brentford?

Doh! Of course he did – thanks, Dave!

If Mina is putting down his anchors for a free transfer next summer, and Keane is staying then it makes sense to loan out this kid.

Correctly or incorrectly, he's Franks 6th choice at the moment, and therefore unlikely to play more than half a dozen games for us. At this stage, he needs to play, week-in and week-out.

Reece Welch will come into the squad as the extra body to cover injuries and maybe cups, then he'll be loaned out the season after as (hopefully) Branthwaite comes back as a first choice to start for us.

I'd prefer to see him given a chance in pre-season. He's 6ft-5in and a left-sided centre-back, which we totally lack.

Against Brentford, he was unlucky, and Toney, who is a diver, knew what he was doing. Given game time, he could be a revelation beside Tarkowski.

Considering FFP, I would much prefer Keane and Mina getting shipped out and Branthwaite being trusted to play a few games.

Being sent out on loan sounds good in principle but, in reality, you're always the scapegoat for a few bad results and there's a very real danger of spending a year receiving sub-standard coaching at poorer facilities while warming the bench of a Championship club.

Great if it works, potentially disastrous if it doesn't.

As things stand now, Mina is going nowhere as a decent bid may be putting clubs off with his injury record. Win-win for us anyway.

A loan away for Branthwaite will do him or us no good. Still unforgivable the way Keane and Holgate let us down time and time again. Same with Godfrey – either step up or do one.

I am not averse to him going out on loan, so he's ready to be first choice the season after next.

He's got some rough edges that need ironing out with regular football at a decent level. Good on the ball, good in the air, quick and a unit.

It will be interesting to see who Frank pairs with Tarkowski. Mina looks like he will go despite being the best we have, Godfrey is quick but some of his play is really poor, whilst Holgate and Keane I think have had their chance.

My preference would be to keep Mina (if the medical team support that view) and Branthwaite, and move on Keane and Holgate. But I think it'll be the other way around.

I'm with you on this one, Gary. As a 20-year-old centre-back, he needs the kind of experience you only get from playing, and he won't get many minutes here.

Being kicked up and down on a wet November Saturday in Sheffield seems a great learning opportunity to me.

Maybe turn him into a bit of a yard dog too, which with his size could be frightening, and give us a bit of bite at the back which we have sadly needed in recent years.

Okay, he was sent off against Brentford, but he is good enough now to be in the first-team squad.

At least take him on the pre-season tour and assess him before any rash decisions.

He needs games to develop, if that's not with us this season a loan to the best club possible with guaranteed playing time will benefit us and him.

I am of the same view that I can't wait for him to be a first team regular with us. He's got he quality required, but at 19 possibly they want get a bit more maturity and core strength into him that playing regularly will bring.

Whatever they decide I see him as a major part of the club's future and a our defensive rock for the next decade.

I'm still having hyper ventilating moments and waking up in the middle of the night over last season, Micheal, so I feel that sentiment.

I agree with you, I'd like to see Branthwaite given the chance to train and play with the first-team squad at Everton. I could actually see him doing well alongside a fit and consistent Mina.

I watched the highlights of Glastonbury last night. It is never lost on me that a Manchester club has adopted a song coined by a lad from Speke as its anthem.

So if I turn the tables with a song from their most high profile celebrity supporters. Don't look back in anger, Michael!!

If Everton do decide to let Mina leave, they will need another centre-half to cover Branthwaite if he does go out on loan, as neither Holgate or Godfrey are natural centre-halves.

Yeah, good point about relations being frosty between us and Burnley but maybe we could use this as a sweetener to help build bridges?

Give them something similar to the deal we had with Barca over Geri. "If he plays X amount of games then the loan fee and wages are scrapped. You have him for free."

Something like that.

Don't Look Back In Anger?

Made me chuckle, that one, Danny. The perfect anthem for the always forgiving, never negative, always generous, never resentful Goodison faithful...

It would be a good one to put on the Kenwright thread. Perhaps we could get Don Alexander to sing it to himself. Forgive and forget! And it would all simply go away...

A mistake if we loan him out as far as I am concerned. If he needs more playing time he should get it with us.

I agree with Michael, I think he is better served staying with our first-team squad, particularly given the fact 5 substitutes are allowed next season.

Whatever happened to giving the young, most promising, players game time?

Branthwaite needs to improve some aspects of his game. He gets caught on the wrong side of his man, and doesn't seem to make enough tackles to me.

I expect Tarkowski and Holgate to be our regular pair if we play a back 4 next season. I think Lampard rates Holgate.

Keane and Godfrey provide cover.

Mina is likely to be sold.

I have very high hopes of Branthwaite. If we still had a player like Jagielka to bring him on then he might already be a first teamer – but we don't, so the loan makes sense.

Robert, I can't see Keane playing second fiddle. Although I also don't think Keane and the new lad would be a good pairing. Will be interesting to see what Frank has in mind.

At this stage of his career, Branthwaite needs to get regular game time. It's difficult to see how he would get this at the moment with the glut of centre-backs – Tarkowski, Mina, Godfrey, Holgate, Kean and Branthwaite – in the squad.

Unless Mina or any of the others were to be sold, I would let him go on loan, preferably to Burnley as a Championship side and with Kompany to learn from.

Danny, Keane may not like playing 2nd fiddle. But I don't think he's Lampard's first pick and I can't see any obvious buyers for him where he'd be first choice.

Maybe Fulham - if Silva still rates him. He might pair up with Adarabioyo. Or Bournemouth. Maybe Brighton.

So I'm guessing likeliest scenario is that he stays and competes for two CB slots (unless we play a back 3 / 5)

Michael - can we just look at the subs question which gets you so upset.

Go back to the Blackburn game in 2005-6 season. 9 minutes in and Ian Turner handles outside the area and a red card. Reserve keeper John Ruddy now has 81 minutes. What happens if at some point in those 81 minutes he gets injured? Who goes in goal?

Move forward to 2022-23 and the same thing. Ruddy gets injured and we can choose any one of 7 outfield players, of which only 4 are a possible sub, to go on the pitch.

Given the number of times we used the max 3 subs (16 in 38) last season - I can't believe having 1 extra outfield player on the bench will have an positive impact compared to the outside risk of having to play part of the match with an outfield player in goal. I know it does your head in but it is a sensible option.

What I do object to is not at least naming all 9 subs. Even putting some of the young lads on the bench - and even if they played the previous day. It will give then encouragement and a taste of the first team.

Never mind loaning out players, in just over 2 weeks we will be in the USA and so far all we have done is cancel contracts of players, be mentioned with about a dozen or more players with none brought in.
I don't know if we have to wait until the end of June to do any business but other clubs have managed to do it, or do we have to wait until a takeover is agreed, but at the moment we seem to be going with less than we finished with in May. I f we are going to bring in new players will they not need time to become used to tactics and teammates.

I really rate JArrad and believe he is very close to what we need in the first team.

At 6'55 and a decent passer of the ball all he lacks is the experience of playing in the Premiership.

I would be all for selling Keane and Mina and giving JArrad gradually more minutes in the first team especially when we play 3 at the back which I don't like but Frank seems to be determined to use.

Hi Phil,

Interesting that you need to go back as far as 2005-06 for your example where the sub goalkeeper had to come on. I think that is significant.

So I would flip it around. It is clearly such a rare occurrence in and of itself, that having a (ie, just one) dedicated goalkeeper on the bench arguably provides ample insurance cover.

Not absolute, I agree, but let's accept your logic, and let's say I agree that you don't want to be embarrassed when you have already used your one goalie sub. Hence you gotta have two on the bench, just in case. Okay.

But then... what if he goes off??? Uh-oh... better put a third keeper on the bench just in case. Better safe than sorry! And you'd still have 6 outfield players on the bench to cover 3 possible outfield subs (concussion subs notwithstanding).

So why not lose one of those 6 outfield players and put a fourth keeper on the bench... you know, just in case!!!

I'll stop there. Reductio ad absurdum, as those bloody Eyeties would have us say.

We seem to be particularly blessed in numbers (if not quality) at centre-back. Presently we have Keane, Holgate, Mina, Godfrey, Branthwaite, Tarkowski, Welch, Astley, Gibson, and John. The later 4, I think I'm correct in saying, are all older than Branthwaite and, in Lewis Gibson's case, cost more than him. (Didn't we pay Newcastle £1M rising to £5M?)

Given that all have been retained, should we not decide who is going to make it and who is not? Reece Welch seems to have caught Lampard's attention, Gibson has already been out on an injury-hit loan.

Surely we can afford to off-load at least Mina, Keane and Holgate to get decidedly average players on reasonably high wages off the books and promote from within?

I particularly would like to see Holgate go. I sit in line with the penalty spot at the Gwladys Street end of the Lower Bullens and get so frustrated watching him pass the ball behind the full-back every time we play out of defence. Funny how little things get up your nose.

He's just turning 20 tomorrow. Good, send him out. But to a club weak enough at centre-back that Jarrad has a reasonable chance to fight his way into the starting 11.

Then it's up to Jarrad so let's see how he matures and improves.

Michael, even better suggestion. We have only ever had 3 goalies subbed since that time, why put even one on the bench?

And I forgot Tim Howard got sent off in 2013-14.

Stephen (35), Lewis Gibson's contract ended in June, and he has been released by Everton, I believe.

I don't understand how so many Evertonians continue to hope that Mina will make it as a regular centre-back. I don't think he will, and actually his on-and-off presence in the team is very unsettling for the central defense.

We need a stable and consistent centre-back partnership, which we haven't had for quite a few seasons now, and that is a key reason for us leaking goals.

In my opinion, Lampard needs to decide on a centre-back partnership that is guaranteed to play at least 30 games together next season, and that alone should see us conceding fewer goals.

I would sell Mina which will help give us some room to manoeuvre with FFP and let Branthwaite stay and fight for his place.

What's all the "What if?" arguments. I remember a time when we had no substitutes. "What if?" is a discussion that can continue forever.

The point that pisses me off is that this extra substitution once again is to help the Sky favorites who normally have on their benches players that would be in our starting 11.

It seems to me that these clubs are worried because their first class athletes with all the modern conveniences, trainers, and medical people cant play for 90 minutes, and a coach who used the wrong tactics to start, wants to bring in a different style of player to change them.

The only changes that should have been made is that the extra players on the bench more than we have now, should all be youth players.

Thanks Ajay, I thought I had read somewhere that, although his contract expired on 30 June, that he had been offered new terms by Everton which he had rejected and was still in talks.

Branthwaite, 6'-5", just turned 20, strong as an ox, and can play football – what's there not to like? Especially, now there are 5 subs permitted excluding goalkeepers?

The discussion regarding the 'keeper subs reminded me that Ancelotti brought Virginia on as a sub in one match – or did I just imagine that??

Ajay, good comments. It is essential that we form a proper centre-back partnership. That is the foundation for any good side.

We haven't had that since Zouma and Keane formed a bit of a relationship (and even that was early days).

It'll be an imperfect partnership but, as long as the team structure (especially midfield) is good, then it should be okay.

So hopefully none of this chopping and changing from match to match. Lampard knows what each player offers (and what they do not). So pick 2 of 4 best suited to play the system and stick with it.

If the lad continues to develop as he has, he will be an absolute star. He's got everything required to be a top-class international centre-back.

We're very lucky to have him. Look after him, for fuck's sake.

Long-term our interests are best served by Branthwaite reaching his full potential. That goal is better served by him getting 25+ starts in a competitive league against fully matured attackers than a handful of starts or substitute appearances with us.

The absolute ideal for me would be for him to excel playing 30+ games for a good mid-table Championship team (maybe he could replace Colwill at Huddersfield?). That would help his development and prove him ready to step up to first-team starter with us.

It's obvious to me that if Frank thought the kid was ready to step in, there'd be no talk of loans, but very few 20-year-olds are ready to start at centre-back in the Premier League.

Kompany isn't the only Championship manager who could teach Jarrad the facts of life. Like him or not, old Steve Bruce knows a bit about playing that position.

One-time Blue, Gary Rowett, could show him life in The Den. Mark Robins and Dean Smith work down there too. Maybe best of all would be Boro, where Chris Wilder would be a terrific mentor for the kid.

Go get 'em, young man. Your locker will be waiting when you get back.

Dennis (42), I don't think you did imagine it, I think it was last season against Burnley when Pickford got injured then carried on for a few minutes but had to leave the field, Virginia came on and did okay and although we lost it was to the same score as he came on: 1-2.

Premier League rules state that 25-man squads must have at least 8 homegrown players. Everton have already lost Delph and Kenny, so, Everton need to keep Branthwaite without having to include further untried Under-23 homegrown players.

Personally, I find these rumours all very depressing. At present we have four first-team centre-backs who for one reason or another are all flawed, and it appears we are about to sign Tarkowski who may or not be an improvement on the existing incumbents...

Young Branthwaite, on the other hand, excites me. Yes, he is raw, but he needs game time and I hoped that would be with us. Unless young Gibson, another left-sided centre-back who has surprisingly been retained, is given some opportunities to play with the first team.

One thing is for certain, the team desperately needs a more solid defence than last season if we are to reduce the anxiety levels amongst supporters. Let's hope we see some positive comings and goings within the next few days.

Ajay #38,

The last I heard, we are in negotiations with Lewis Gibson about a new contract, I don't think he's been officially released yet.

Pre-season could be the big chance for Branthwaite to make an impact. Personally I'd keep Branthwaite in the squad and try to sell off or give away a couple of high earners like Mina and Keane.

He's obviously got the potential, so the balance is will he learn more under Frank and his coaches or is Championship level game time better?

Mike (46),

"Maybe best of all would be Boro, where Chris Wilder would be a terrific mentor for the kid."

Didn't know Wilder was managing again. I like this idea the best. Jarrad would sure know where he stands with that guy.

Ta, Dave #47. As I was typing it I wondered whether I'd dreamt it!

Steavey, I think we are okay on the homegrown rule:

Pickford
Begovic
Lonergan
Tarkowski
Holgate
Keane
Godfrey
Davies
Gray
Townsend
Iwobi
Alli
Calvert-Lewin

U23
Gordon
Branthwaite

@50

Surely that cannot be true.

Why on earth would he be offered a new deal?

On what planet does that make any sense?

I'd be very, very surprised if Silva rated Keane, Robert. He was another who ended up playing three at the back because, whatever combination he tried, he just couldn't get a partnership out of any two of them.

Branthwaite has clear potential. But he also definitely needs game time. At Blackburn he did okay, but his inexperience was evident. And the same was evident for us last season.

He needs a season playing week-in and week-out as a senior player, with the responsibility and 'need to win'. The necessity to take responsibility for and learn from mistakes.

Ideally at a club pushing for promotion, with a 'must win' feeling for every game.

If Mina is sold, we will need to sign someone else because 3 centre-backs isn't enough.

One of Keane or Holgate need to be moved on.

If he goes on loan, and the second time around, and older and wiser, you'd like to think the lad will improve his game,

But for me, Everton's injuries over many seasons now are legendary in view of the frequency of injury.

Hopefully this pre-season the whole first-team set-up, physios, coaches etc will work together to improve the all-round general fitness of the Everton team.

It will be an interesting few days to see what happens in terms of any transfers at EFC.

I don't think we are in a position to play wet-behind-the-ears centre-backs. That's not to insult the lad; I think it's too early for him to be up against world class players. Branthwaite needs as many games as he can at his stage of development, a loan is a must for me.

Mina misses too many games, I'd let him go if there are takers. While our remaining centre-backs are not the greatest in the world – the same can be said for 95% of our players; we would be top of the league if they were – better ones don't grow on trees though.

As usual, all the talk in the media is about the Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea and the other three signing top class players while there's not a peep about the rest of us, so the gulf stays the same or gets bigger.

James #51, yeah, Boro brought in Wilder last November. That could be a great situation for Branthwaite.

Best Championship manager of all for the kid would unquestionably be Steve Cooper at Forest, and playing next to Steve Cook would be like a doctoral study in positioning, but I don't know if he could win that job. That's gonna be a pretty deep club when they get done with all their signings.

In a perfect world we'd sell Mina (love the guy, but have to be realistic), which would clear the way for Branthwaite to step in and partner Tarkowski... but I think that's naive. I don't think he's ready.

He held his own against Chelsea, but looked pretty nervy on the few other occasions he played. A smart loan move could be vital for his development.

Brian @16. Funnily enough, I was only thinking the same myself about Mina. I'm a big fan but possible suitors could well be put off by his injury record.

Personally, I would sell him myself if a decent bid came in because he's no good sitting in the stand or on the bench. But it does seem to have gone quiet on him lately.

@ 56 Fran

You make an interesting point. However to flip that - you could argue that the more game time he's had, the more deficiency he's shown in his game.

This was certainly true at Blackburn where he showed no improvement at all. In fact, I followed his performances closely and they definitely dipped before the injury curtailed his spell there.

Likewise at Everton. We've seen decent early ‘one off' type performances but then when given a chance as a starter for a match ahead of other he categorically has not seized this opportunity.

Time is on his side of course. But for me, it's 18 months max and I expect to see a loan and I expect to see him make a centre-back shirt his own at age 20 in the Championship. If he fails to do this, then the writing is on the wall for me. We cannot fall into the repeated loan broken record system.

He needs to enter the close season of 2023 as a contender to start the season as our centre-back; otherwise, it's time for him to move on.

Mike, I like Branthwaite, I think he's got the makings. I'd like to see him going to a Championship club, so long as we can recall. But we'll be playing Forest in the Premier League in August.

However, I agree, Steve Cooper is smart.

Right, Pete, I forgot!

Hot Sunday afternoon brain fuzz, I guess.

No fuzz here Michael. A night looking after the grandkids then slumped watching Diana Ross torturing Glastonbury.

Tony # 55. When we had Gueye in midfield, Silva didn't have a problem with Keane and Zouma as a partnership. It only became a problem once we lost both Gueye and his replacement Gbamin.

Whether Silva rates him higher than his existing centre half options (no great shakes) or better than whatever else he can pick up I don't know.

But if Silva isn't interested it is really difficult to think who would be.

Which is why I think Keane, Godfrey, Tarkowski and Holgate will be our 4 options next season (because Mina only has 1 year on his contracts and will not be hard to sell despite injury).

Disappointing though that might be, it could work OK if we get the midfield right ahead of the centre halves. I think that is the plan.

We really do have a lot of points to discuss concerning who we want and don't want for next season.

There are players who do have too many absences through injury and Frank has to decide who will be his starting players especially on defence which needs to be a lot more stable than last season.

I like Mina but somehow I don't see him being in a starting role next season. What we have will be, Godfrey, Keane, Holgate and now Tarkowski and who starts is anyone's guess but we will have to see who will be consistent.

A healthy, still-Blue Mina is a guaranteed starter -- he's just better than anyone else we have.

If Mina is sold, I'd say it'll be Tark and Keane to start with. I'm waving off Godfrey's last season and assuming he'll step up into a starting role whenever Frank transitions his defense to a back three playing the ball out instead of lumping it.

Just like Ellis Simms, best case scenario for both the Club & Jarrad himself in the coming season IMHO: 30+ starts with a Championship Club or a Continental Club that plays in any 1 of the 3 European Competitions with his full salary absorbed by the loaning club.

Even if he can only last an average of 60 minutes in each game, that would still be 1800+ valuable minutes towards his development.

The key obstacle is to guarantee playing time amidst contingencies, most notably sacking of managers at the loaning club (see: Joao Virginia at Reading, Lewis Gibson at Wednesday) & different opinion on injuries.

Let's keep our fingers crossed on how Thelwell and his team earn their pay-cheques by negotiating favourable (& creative) terms that serve the Club & Jarrad well.

Mina being our best central defender shows how poor the others are really because he himself is hardly a dominant type and is always close to a mistake. I would say get rid of him whilst we can along with either Keane or Holgate. Maybe get rid of both if things work out in the transfer market.

We talk about loaning out Branthwaite so other managers can nurture him and yet we have Frank Lampard and his team who can do just that whilst giving him game time. Same with Godfrey. He has all the athleticism required so just needs some good coaching.

The midfield is our big issue because goals and assists are in big demand if we don't want to be going through hell again next April.

Mike (59) - Well I went and looked.

Cooper brought Forest up. And Worrel and McKenna were the CB team helped him getting there, looking at the minutes they logged.

I'll always respect Wilder for bringing that shit Sheffield team up to the Prem. But he has McNair and Fry been the CB pairing at Boro for the last 4 seasons. And didn't miss the Championship playoffs by much last season.

So, like both managers you've mentioned, but would rather another club Jarrod could have a legitimate chance at cracking the first 11. Just can't see Cooper or Wilder breaking up what they got to accommodate Everton.

Wherever he goes, the only thing to me is that he "forces" the manager to select him.

And let's stop with Yerry this or that. He's done.

Tarkowski wasn't signed for any other reason than Mina is finished at the EPL level.

Love Yerry for the same reason others do. But that quadriceps tendon injury dropped him three times this season. It's not going to heal enough to keep playing regularly.

Given that and his last contract year coming up, silly season or no, maybe stop attaching transfer fees to his name.

James #71... you're mistaken. Cook was a starter from the moment he arrived at Forest in January. He, Worrell and McKenna mostly played together in a 3-CB backline. And Forest lost only two games with Cook in the lineup from January through the May playoffs.

James #72... you're mistaken. It was Gbamin who suffered the rare and serious quadriceps tendon injury, which requires major surgery. Mina's quad injury was a muscle pull, just like Godfrey's. And Mina's other two injuries were a hamstring and a calf strain, nothing to do with the quad.

He is by no means "done" and if we sell him this summer, as seems certain, we will most definitely get a transfer fee (I will guess £10-15 million). Care to wager on it?

So what would be the point in scouring the lower divisions for young talent if the only way we have to improve them is to send them out on loan to lower league clubs, and does this mean the restructuring of the Academy will see only more talented 8 year olds oh, and the U23's becoming U21s.

Branthwaite has shown in his few appearances that he has great potential but also makes occasional novice mistakes which could and should be corrected by any decent coaching or are we supposed to wait until he realizes and corrects this himself and in the meantime sign some sort of cover from,say, a relegated club.

I have this terrible feeling that the new faces are singing the same old song but things may seem clearer if and when this season's outgoing players become known.

The lad is tall - strong - has football skills. Our Club has a small squad - weak in defence and short of the Readies. To me it seems logical to keep him at Goodison. train with the first team and with the coaches for the experience he needs, and he would be immediately available re injuries, suspensions and the odd first team start.

I just remember Silva, sitting down fuming when a simple third division ball, hit over the top of our defence, was enough for Bournemouth to score Robert. Nothing to do with Gueye, but definitely something that Zouma, would have easily dealt with imo?

If Tarakowski is a leader, then maybe all of our centrebacks, will be able to play and perform better alongside him? But it's going to be an interesting few weeks, and I think we might be able to gauge things better, this time next month?

I remember Stuart Pearce, saying how good Michael Keane was, after Everton signed him, and although I'm not sure if he's still a coach at West Ham, it's possible David Moyes, has been listening to Pearce, and might come in for Michael?

A few comments on this very interesting thread.

Michael, your comment @24 made me equally chuckle.

Guilty m'Lord. You've sussed me, although I think you already have!!

When it comes to watching Everton, especially on match day, I have nothing to offer but blind faith, emotion and optimism. It makes no sense, I can't explain it and even the Evertonian component of my family shake their heads in disbelief at me. My wife often calls me Danny aged 10. I think I've been relegated to Infant School on the back of last season and I'm on the brink of being sent to Nursery so I can start again.

Robert, you re-highlight the problem we've had with this defence of ours for some time and one that many of us have been boringly repeating ourselves with. Mind the gap. We expose our defenders because they are not comfortable playing higher and a couple of managers have realised that too. But we don't have that player in front to protect and shield them. So we revert to defending deep. I know it's opinions, but to me, that is inviting trouble.

Goalkeeper subs is an interesting subject. I'm going to start sounding old now but I'm not a fan. In this data driven age, and for those who like statistics, how often do we use them? I recall times when there was always an outfield player who was pretty handy behind the sticks if the need came. If I remember, wasn't Rooney rumoured to be a decent keeper? It would make sense as he apparently was a very good boxer, so was pretty handy with his hands I would imagine. Sorry, it seems a waste of a sub to me.

Partnerships are important, especially down the spine of the team. Centre backs. Centre Midfield. Centre Forwards. I'm off on my 80s nostalgia, but Mountfield/Watson & Ratcliffe. Reid & Bracewell. Sharp & Gray. It becomes telepathic. Supplement that with wide players and attacking full backs and you have the ingredients. Throw Kevin Sheedy in and you have ecstasy. Sorry, I had to get Sheedy in!! Better as a number 10 than the wide player he is mostly remembered for in my opinion.

But to establish partnerships, you need to stick with it and allow it to develop. Not panic every week after a poor performance and change it constantly. I appreciate it's more of a squad game now, but you still need to let things settle and have a plan.

On Mina. He is our best defender. He's not top drawer but neither are Everton, so let's be realistic. But he's the best we have and not our most experienced if you want to bring age into it. But when on the pitch, the leader. Stating the obvious, but we just can't get him on the pitch enough unfortunately.

Last point on the topic of the thread. I think Branthwaite has potential and I'll repeat, I want him to stay here next season and be part of the first team squad. We have to remember he is very young, especially for a centre back. He will make mistakes. Firstly because footballers do and also because centre backs mature later. Be patient with him and don't crucify him in his formative years.

Okay, I'm trying to avoid Michael Keane bashing, but now it's being discussed, that's the problem Tony.

The ball over the top. He watches it and reacts after the event. Only he doesn't have the recovery powers of the likes of Zouma and I would say Distin. He doesn't anticipate danger unless its directly in front of him.

I mentioned Distin, so I know some will point out the semi final and yes, that was a mistake. Anyone who has walked on the field of football knows they happen. But overall, a very good defender with good powers to recover a situation.

Michael's fault is his lack of concentration and awareness to compensate for his flaws in recovering a situation. I'm going to feel dirty saying this, but he's like a nice guy Carragher who did overcome similar flaws by being a gobby nasty shit and reading the game well. Michael is a good defender but too nice.

Fast approaching 30, I think Michael Keane is as good as we have seen and are going to see.

Mina will only play a handful of games again next season, Holgate isn't good enough, and Keane can only play in a low block because he has the turning circle of a tanker. Ideally we need another centre back in addition to Tarkowski, but Branthwaite definitely isn't ready for the PL.

But I guess we'll just hope for Mina staying fit and play him alongside the Burnley man, with Holgate and Keane filling in whenever Mina tweaks his calf just after an international break.

I'm with George mckane. He should play instead of Holgate.

Bobby,

I'm sure George would give it a go but 90 minutes is a big ask!

Allen 😂😂😂

Michael @79 - you haven't included Godfrey in your thinking here

Tony, West Ham have bought Aguerd from Rennes for big money so won't be in the market for another centre half.

I don't dispute any of the weaknesses in our centre halves including Keane. Unfortunately Tarkowski is not top drawer either.

The issue we have is that we haven't the money to revamp our defence with top class centre backs so we'll have to put up with weakness and structure the team to combat it.

Once Branthwaite really is ready and Godfrey is more mature we might have a really good pairing. But it'll take a bit of time.

Tarkowski is a stop gap. The focus now is on midfield.

I read the other day that Mina intends to stay next season on his top salary, then be a free agent next summer. He's no fool.

Robert (84) - I think West Ham might well be in for another centre-half before the season begins. Not necessarily Michael Keane, but someone. Ogbonna is coming back from a cruciate tear, Diop might be agitating to leave, leaving Dawson, Zouma and the new signing Aguerd - plus any academy graduates deemed ready (Alese?). I think they are probably one short still. If Moyes wants to pair a speedy centre-back with one that is commanding in the air then he has two or three of the speedy options, and no real cover for Dawson. Keane does fit that brief.

Happy Birthday to Jarrad Branthwaite. A promising prospect none the less, all the best to his development as a player if he goes out on loan. I trust Frank that he and his staff will make right decisions.

Branthwaite has made 37 first team club appearances in all competitions in four seasons. Included in that figure are 14 at League Two Carlisle. The player has shown potential and now needs to learn his trade with regular first team football.

Given he is unlikely to be more than a reserve in the coming season, a loan move to the Championship makes more sense than sitting on the bench with us.

I agree, John. I know it's stating the obvious, but there are 2 ways of looking at loans.

For young players to play regular competitive football, as will be the case with Branthwaite. Or trying to entice a transfer and put the player in the shop window, as was likely the case with Jonjoe Kenny.

As myself and others have mentioned, if you consider we have Patterson, Godfrey, Branthwaite and Mykolenko, we have the makings of a potentially good back line with youth on its side.

I still believe we need to complement that with experience. Mina for a season if he can somehow get over a broken toenail putting him out for 6 weeks. Keane perhaps, but most know my views on him. He should be our most experienced centre-back and therefore leader. He isn't.

I agree, midfield is the priority, and obviously the probability of having to replace Richarlison. But I wouldn't be disappointed if we signed a centre-back given my sentiment on Keane and Mina. Maybe that's what the player from Burnley is being brought in for?

Danny #89, stating the obvious but young foreign players have the advantage of playing in generally weaker leagues.

This means a promising player can rack up 50 to 100 games by age 21 / 22.

This means they gain hugely valuable experience, taking lots of responsibility as the 'talent', compared to English youngsters who are often struggling to get off the bench at the same age.

I get the impression that there's a lot of anti-loan sentiment amongst other contributors.

To me, the loan system is an opportunity to give our youngsters the same opportunity to get those 50 to 100 games under their belt at a young age.

It means they can come into the first team having toughened up and ironed out immaturity in their game age about 21 / 22 - which is about right unless you are truly exceptional like Foden, Greenwood and Saka.

I look at the development of Mason Mount as a textbook example. Having played 25 games for Chelsea U23, he went to Vitesse Arnhem and got 14 goals and 10 assists in 39 games. He then went to Derby and got 11 goals and 6 assists in 44 games.

This meant he entered the Chelsea first team as an experienced youngster - just like foreign counterparts from weaker leagues.

You can make a good case that the reserve league was better, loans allow big clubs to stockpile players etc - but at the moment they offer the best structured route to a Premier League first team.

Robert #90.

As you say, Mason Mount had an almost flawless path from youth to first team. This however is not the reality for the vast majority of young players.

In this current era, very few young players have the drive and the talent, which has to keep growing to become an elite-level player. No amount of experience and coaching can put in what's not there. All players have a peak level.

Why with all that coaching and experience did Jonjoe Kenny not become a standout player? The answer is not the same for each player; they either have it or don't. It's regognising the very few who really have it from the start.

Adequate players can be found in abundance, but to compete with the elite, loaning players to the Championship produces Championship level players.

David I agree with the observations but not the conclusion.

Championship loans gave the likes of Abraham, Mount and James the chance to develop at a standard very roughly comparable to the Portuguese, French, Belgian, Dutch league etc (barring a few really big clubs).

Personally I also like the idea of loans abroad to give exposure to more technical leagues like Netherlands. Might have been better for Gordon than a spell at Preston being bypassed by long balls.

What a loan cannot do is turn a sows ear into a silk purse. It is about giving experience to someone who is already a silk purse - too good for the u23s but blocked from first team football by older, experience players many of whom are internationals.

Kenny is an upper championship / lower Premier League level player. Not quite good enough for our first team unfortunately. No amount of coaching, loans or u23 games were going to get him to James, Trent etc standard.

David @91,

Thank you for that post. This is the ultimate truth about young players coming up through our Academy. Yet so much focus is on the management of the Academy and how useless it is because it wants to get good results and win games at Academy level, while failing to find those elite players. Or it has destroyed those developing elite-level players through bad coaching and bad management.

It's such a crime that loaning out to the Championship is seen as the correct final step on the pathway to developing elite players for the Premier League. I think the evidence shows that, in most cases, you are bang on: loaning players to the Championship produces Championship-level players.

But the myth will be perpetuated... no doubt about it.

Michael, I know you're not fond of the loan system.

Do you think Championship loans hold back players who might otherwise have become Premier League standard?

Or do you think it shows academies are generally producing Championship (or lower) standard players?

Personally I think it is the latter.

There's no right and wrong with regards to loaning, each player is different and will respond differently. The loan for game time worked for Mount, Gallagher who was at a few clubs, I think Harry Kane was on loan too early doors, Lukaku was at West Bromwich. Forest sent Brennan Johnson to lowly Lincoln City for a season for game time, there's plenty of examples.

There will be twenty times as many who don't succeed on loan, but would these same players have broken into the first team if they stayed with their u23s ? It's fair to say possibly but not likely.

A good case to debate would be Lewis Dobbin. A very promising young player with loads of potential. How would he, and our club, be best served ? Him being a sub for a year, getting 15 minutes here and there or out on loan for decent club playing 30 games and developing his game and confidence?

It's a grey area and probably only the professional staff who see him every day of the week on the training ground can make the best call for him and others.

Frank Lampard should be a good judge in this respect, if a young player is ready I think Frank will play him.

Some great observations. There is no right or wrong in the loan system. It works for some players, it doesn't for others. For me, the fact we, and a lot of other clubs, have not produced enough first team players for our own club is what needs looking at.

Robert, I always admire your articulate and factual view on football in comparison to my more scattergun one. You are very informed. I don't like to call them lesser leagues even though I do get your point.

Genuine question. Do you think the outcome is because the academy system and coaching is better in those countries rather than them being lesser leagues?

Okay, only at my own level, but I've played in Germany where they are persistent in their man marking, clever when you go English on them to get the foul and even though as equal to us physically, are way more technical and comfortable on the ball.

I've played in Italy where they are just outright dirty players off the ball who blatantly cheat, kick and pull. But again, way more technical and comfortable on the ball.

Because of the underperformance of our grass roots coaching and our academy system, other countries produce better players at scale as opposed to our ones and twos.

Linked to that and back to my loan system, you'll start me off on my B Team / Satellite Club rant!! I think that would be a great way to keep players representing Everton and playing competitive football.

We think we have a tough league. It's actually overloaded with foreign players because we don't produce enough good ones. Foreign players from those lesser leagues that make it a tough league. Not necessarily English or British players. But you're right, those leagues give them the chance to play more regular and gain experience.

Robert (90) you make a good point in your sixth paragraph down in that the loan system can toughen players up by playing with and against older players and hopefully become wiser and better players. In Branthwaite's case I think he is not far away from becoming a good steady player at Everton and if he stays he will learn quicker and become a very good English international player.

Danny, in short, its both coaching and access to first team football.

To answer your question, it's probably helpful to look at France who have have produced a very high volume of quality players consistently now for about 20 odd years.

They overhauled their coaching system and it has borne fruit. You are totally right, we are behind on this as a nation although Chelsea, City etc are catching up with their outstanding academies. Everton are very patchy at best, but then so are most academies.

In France they can also blood these youngsters into first team football age 19 ish because their League is not as competitive as ours. Ligue 1 is not as rich either so they cannot so easily go and buy cheaper foreign talent as we can. In England the ability to buy cheap foreign talent is probably a key reason for under investment in English youth. It's short sighted but that's our football culture - short termism.

And if we do, despite the coaching, produce Branthwaite quality players (ignoring for a moment that he came from Carlisle) we cannot, apparently, risk blooding them in the first team. Despite seeming the most talented CB on our books, he will make immature mistakes.

Away from France, look at DeLigt at CB for Ajax in the Champions League at 17 / 18. It's inconceivable that an English club would play a 17 / 18 year old centre back in the Champions League.

Unlike France and the Netherlands, therefore, we need to give our young talents loans at Championship level (our 2nd tier but extremely good quality compared with many top flight European leagues) or abroad otherwise they'd be sat on the bench or playing u23 games. U23 League is a really poor standard.

Leipzig have taken complete control of supply / development by using clubs in Austria.

Dominic Szoboszlai who recently did a job on England was playing first team football at 16 for Liefering in Austria before graduating to Salzburg en route to Leipzig.

He was too good at 16 for youth football. By age 21 he's had 160 odd professional games but in a very structured way - to allow him to flourish.

Anyway, obviously a subject that bothers / interests me but waffled on too long already.

In truth, I'm a little disappointed that this lad doesn't appear to be heading into the next season as a real contender for starting a decent percentage of the games.

But I guess it could heavily depend on who else we will still have on the books due to the financial situation.

Branthwaite on loan, yet, Everton fans expect an inexperienced under 21 defender to replace him in the squad that does not make any football sense.

Sometimes when you are talking a lot of sense it can seem like you're waffling Robert, but not for me mate, because I personally think your last two posts have been very informative mate.