The Mail Bag
Move to Kirkby/Stay Where we are Vote
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Since last week, when it was announced that only season-ticket holders over the last three years and shareholders will get a vote on the ground move, I have been asking all my friends and family who I know will have a vote how they will vote when it finally comes around.
I have asked approximately 40 people and every single one of them is going to vote against going to Kirkby. A few of them said they may change their mind if the club can convince them, before the vote takes place, that it will categorically be the best thing for us to do but the majority will vote a resounding NO.
I was already of the opinion that fans will vote against Kirkby and now I am convinced. Has anybody else done similar and got different results?
Paul Clays, Posted 27/06/2007 at 13:50:09
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Alternatively, I’ve got a season ticket and know about 20 other blues with season tickets and not one of them is planning on voting against the move.
To be fair to the club, how could they conduct a vote other than to involve only season ticket holders of the last three years and shareholders.
With respect, anyone (including the redshite) could roll up and say they want a vote and corrupt the whole process. To be fair to EFC the season ticket and shareholder basis is the only way it can be done legitimately.
The only reservation I have got is what this new ground will look like. They need to give us this information before a vote. I dont want to move if we are moving to somewhere that isn’t "special", after all we are likely to be there for the next 100 years.
To be fair to the club, how could they conduct a vote other than to involve only season ticket holders of the last three years and shareholders.
With respect, anyone (including the redshite) could roll up and say they want a vote and corrupt the whole process. To be fair to EFC the season ticket and shareholder basis is the only way it can be done legitimately.
The only reservation I have got is what this new ground will look like. They need to give us this information before a vote. I dont want to move if we are moving to somewhere that isn’t "special", after all we are likely to be there for the next 100 years.
I read plenty of negatives from a noisy minority on the web but personally I don’t know anyone who is dead set against Kirkby. Questions will need to be answered and the designs will have to be up to scratch but veryone I know is generally open to it.
As long as the silence lasts, which is how it currently stands, my vote in the poll went to "remain at Goodison".
I am being asked to put my thoughts behind a project which has nothing really for me to look at.
Also, if it is true, and I have held a season ticket within 3 years, my vote will go against Kirby if that remains the same (Just read that in another letter, where is the voting rights information from?).
I am not 100% against the move no matter what, but over time, I have moved towards the "not move" arguement.
I want to see facts, figures, a design, a full report before I make a final decision. If I don’t see something to my liking I will stick with what we have.
I am being asked to put my thoughts behind a project which has nothing really for me to look at.
Also, if it is true, and I have held a season ticket within 3 years, my vote will go against Kirby if that remains the same (Just read that in another letter, where is the voting rights information from?).
I am not 100% against the move no matter what, but over time, I have moved towards the "not move" arguement.
I want to see facts, figures, a design, a full report before I make a final decision. If I don’t see something to my liking I will stick with what we have.
The problem is that we will be asked to vote on the Asbodome before we know the designs and before we have any solid information precisely because information is the enemy of the project. The club wants a mandate - and they will get it - to do whatever they want. As for being there for 100 years, don’t kid yourself. A modern stadium is designed to stand for 25 max. Then it’s off to someplace else, Maybe there’ll be a debate then about moving out of our historical roots in Kirkby.
None of my mates are voting for the move a lot simply because with the lack of information were being asked to trust Bill and I’m sorry but his record makes that a non starter personally this move has none of the pluses of kings dock I don’t wish to move out of the city and need to be shown concrete benefits but all I see are negatives
It never ceases to amaze me the difficulty some people have with the most basic of concepts. All this ’no information’ shite is exactly that. You have no information yet because the club haven’t realeased any yet. they are not asking you to vote on anything yet. If you can apply the tiniest bit of common sense and have a bit of patience I have no doubt that all will be revelaed in due course. Anyone who says otherwise is second guessing at best and more likely fuelling their own agenda. BK and KW are very obviously behind this move. Do you think for one second that they are stupid enough to believe that people would vote for such a move without seeing detailed plans? If you believe that then you need to take a long hard look at yourself and where you are going wrong.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious there David, and talking to us like idiots.
Thank God for people like you to explain everything for us, otherwise where would we be in this world?
Thank God for people like you to explain everything for us, otherwise where would we be in this world?
Sorry Steve, have you not read the posts above? Those are exactly the things that people are saying. Maybe you are right, idiots does seem a fairly accurate description unfortunately.
David Jones is spot on.
We haven’t been asked to vote yet. If the club’s hierarchy are seriously considering this move - and it’s clear that they are - does anyone seriously believe that you’ll simply be asked if you want to move based on no information ?
Come on lads. Just engage a little common sense.
We haven’t been asked to vote yet. If the club’s hierarchy are seriously considering this move - and it’s clear that they are - does anyone seriously believe that you’ll simply be asked if you want to move based on no information ?
Come on lads. Just engage a little common sense.
People are perfectly entitled to berate the whole thing on the basis of a lack of information. They are soon to be asked to undertake a vote of massive importance. The tactic of buttering up the electorate via control of the local media drip feeding the party line, without ever really revealing anything of substance is hardly conducive to promoting an informed voting process. To then suddenly spring some nice glossy images to tip the undecided their way at the last minute with no time for any substantial counter arguments is as devisive as it can be. Where’s the open debate on all the issues? The financial implications of staying/moving? Owning GP/owning or renting the Tescodome? The whole transport issue? Potential investors when all around us are being bought-out almost daily.....All we get is complete silence!! Everton have had the concept designs at their disposal for months, Wyness said as much at a sharholders forum literally months ago. The information contained in the initial consultation presentation and the quality of the presentation itself are bordering on child-like. I used to work for a major construction company, I can honestly say that I have seen better presentations for a proposed substation than this multi-million pound project.
It seems to me that there is an order to these things. There would be no point in Evertonians voting on whether or not to move only to learn later that the residents of Kirkby had rejected the development package . If they do reject it, then Knowsley and Tesco will go on to their plan B. If they (the residents)accept the proposals then EFC will produce detailed plans and the vote will take place. If the vote goes against a move (and if EFC take any notice!) Knowsley and Tesco still have their plan B and we are back to square one and are out of the Kirkby business once and for all. Once the residents have accepted the plans (assuming they do)THAT will be when the real business will start for us Evertonians.A bit of patience please!
and by the same token if the Tescodome design is also of the poorest possible quality (to match that of their presentation) that would not have a cat in hell’s chance of getting Evertonians vote would there be any point in pestering the people of kirkby? They have had the preliminary concept for months..... why haven’t they released them? Or would they rather wait to gain any impetus from a potential positive vote in Kirkby....? add further kudos and momentum to their own campaign?
David Jones, the last time there was a plebiscite on this issue it was done with zero information and there is no reason to suppose it will be done with very much more info this time. The more information they give us, the more varied to reasons for individuals to oppose it. It’s better for B&K to make this about staying or going and little else. But let me ask you this. If moving out of Liverpool is irrelevant because it’s after all only a few miles, how far would it be okay to move? Ellesmere Port? Cronton? Skem? Astmoor? Runcorn? All have Liverpool associations. How about Burtonwood? Saddleworth? Lots of land. Good motorways. Why not further? Once you are prepared to leave Liverpool, how far should it be OK to move? Where is that boundary in your view? Once we have cut a tie you say is meaningless and sentimental, where is it not permissible to go?
Peter, the simple answer is that there is no magic formula. I would judge any site or collction of sites on an individual basis. There are people who are up in arms about a 4 mile move to Kirkby but would happily go 15 miles to Speke. That is crazy to me, completely illogical. am judging kirkby on Kirkby alone and , in terms of location, I have no problem with it. If you ask me would I be OK with going accross the water to Birkenhead I would say no. That isn’t on the table though, Kirkby is. 5 miles in the other direction has nothing to do with Kirkby. I share Eileen’s view that the anti Kirkby movement will say or do pretty much anything to see this move on the rocks and that just doesn’t sit right with me. It’s very easy to make criticisms, much less so to find answers
Oh Tom, please do get a grip.....!
The Tesco design is a larger version of the Cologne Stadium! You know it and I know it.Fill the corners in and it is a cracker. A facsimile of the church spire in the north-west corner and it could even be exciting!A bit of fibreglass ’wrought iron work’ along the front of the upper tier and it could even ’smell’ like Goodison.This is our chance mate... what exactly is your alternative? Pray do tell us!
The Tesco design is a larger version of the Cologne Stadium! You know it and I know it.Fill the corners in and it is a cracker. A facsimile of the church spire in the north-west corner and it could even be exciting!A bit of fibreglass ’wrought iron work’ along the front of the upper tier and it could even ’smell’ like Goodison.This is our chance mate... what exactly is your alternative? Pray do tell us!
David, I respect your position, but Everton is a Liverpool club and it makes no sense to me to leave the city, thereby leaving the future to Liverpool FC. There are districts farther away from Kirkby but they have the advantage of being in Liverpool. That may make no sense to you, but it’s no more illogical than your position that a few miles East of Liverpool is OK but a few miles West is unacceptable. At least Birkenhead and Ellesmere Port are literally Merseyside. I have asked move supporters many times for an example of a comparable move like this working for a football club - anywhere. No-one has ever given me one.
Eileen, it’s being assessed at the moment, but I assure you, it will wipe the floor with Colognes stadium ;), and be on the current site. with the real thing in the corner. Who says you can’t have your cake and eat it? Why settle for pastiche?
To David Jones.
Strange, King’s Dock was not as quiet as this one. Indeed, it is the total lack of any reasoning or explanation from the club that yes I will complain about.
Maybe you will know "enlighten" me as to the difference between this and the King’s Dock.
And I am sorry if I lack faith in a board that has given a lot of good yes, but also its fair share of glorious White Elephants in the past too.
And why, is saying I am not happy with lack of any information from the board a bad thing? Yes a final report would not be released till the end. But I for one, think they could have released far more information than they have.
And quite frankly, I think the way the fans have been dealt with is appauling.
What the board could have released, is full reasoning behind why Goodison cannot be redeveloped, why other sites looked at before are not up to grade. These are questions raised by fans which are commonly overlooked.
This move or not to move question was always going to split the fans, but I feel the board have fallen a long way short of coming out of this with any respect.
They could have, and should have in my opinion been more open, and I am sure there are ways they could have been.
So I will wait for my information. As I said in my previous post. And make a decision based on that, but forgive me if I don’t have too much faith on that being what you seem to believe it will be.
Strange, King’s Dock was not as quiet as this one. Indeed, it is the total lack of any reasoning or explanation from the club that yes I will complain about.
Maybe you will know "enlighten" me as to the difference between this and the King’s Dock.
And I am sorry if I lack faith in a board that has given a lot of good yes, but also its fair share of glorious White Elephants in the past too.
And why, is saying I am not happy with lack of any information from the board a bad thing? Yes a final report would not be released till the end. But I for one, think they could have released far more information than they have.
And quite frankly, I think the way the fans have been dealt with is appauling.
What the board could have released, is full reasoning behind why Goodison cannot be redeveloped, why other sites looked at before are not up to grade. These are questions raised by fans which are commonly overlooked.
This move or not to move question was always going to split the fans, but I feel the board have fallen a long way short of coming out of this with any respect.
They could have, and should have in my opinion been more open, and I am sure there are ways they could have been.
So I will wait for my information. As I said in my previous post. And make a decision based on that, but forgive me if I don’t have too much faith on that being what you seem to believe it will be.
Jonesy,
I think you’ll find KEIOC are seeking answers. They’re talking to all the right people and asking Questions including the various councils and the club. How many questions have you asked, and what answers inspired your pro-kirkby stance? I agree, there is no magic formula, but there are modern trends in stadia planning and criteria for locating these. Very few out of town stadia are appearing in the US where they have been undergoing the biggest stadium rebuilding program of the past 80 years. I believe more new stadia are being built there than in the rest of the world put together, they are deserting the out of town/edge of town stadia for new downtown versions, particularly the large franchise venues. Some with no carparking facilities at all. This in the home of auto-culture. There are a few exceptions but that has been the over all trend of the past 15 years, the results and benefits have been unquestionable. Simon Inglis the world renowned stadium expert believes it could be disastrous for the club to move out of the city, and also cannot see the logic in it. In a two team city what can be the logic of leaving the centre ground to your competitor? How can a public transport defecit between Walton and Kirkby of the order of almost 10:1 be made up by a deregulated transport system? Put it another way if a city-centre site was available would you really still opt for Kirkby? So why do it now? Investors are falling out the trees at the moment, why not invest in a promising/improving team first, and wait and see? GP wont fall down, it’s massively over-engineered. In the meantime that central site might materialise, as well as the investor, and we’ll all laugh at the notion of ever considering Kirkby. Wyness said there is no option B when he was actually sitting in it.(£400K pa for that pearl of wisdom) perhaps that plan B hasn’t got a Tesco brown envelope attached.
I think you’ll find KEIOC are seeking answers. They’re talking to all the right people and asking Questions including the various councils and the club. How many questions have you asked, and what answers inspired your pro-kirkby stance? I agree, there is no magic formula, but there are modern trends in stadia planning and criteria for locating these. Very few out of town stadia are appearing in the US where they have been undergoing the biggest stadium rebuilding program of the past 80 years. I believe more new stadia are being built there than in the rest of the world put together, they are deserting the out of town/edge of town stadia for new downtown versions, particularly the large franchise venues. Some with no carparking facilities at all. This in the home of auto-culture. There are a few exceptions but that has been the over all trend of the past 15 years, the results and benefits have been unquestionable. Simon Inglis the world renowned stadium expert believes it could be disastrous for the club to move out of the city, and also cannot see the logic in it. In a two team city what can be the logic of leaving the centre ground to your competitor? How can a public transport defecit between Walton and Kirkby of the order of almost 10:1 be made up by a deregulated transport system? Put it another way if a city-centre site was available would you really still opt for Kirkby? So why do it now? Investors are falling out the trees at the moment, why not invest in a promising/improving team first, and wait and see? GP wont fall down, it’s massively over-engineered. In the meantime that central site might materialise, as well as the investor, and we’ll all laugh at the notion of ever considering Kirkby. Wyness said there is no option B when he was actually sitting in it.(£400K pa for that pearl of wisdom) perhaps that plan B hasn’t got a Tesco brown envelope attached.
Tommy, thanks for a sensible response. Just to clarify I am not actually ’pro Kirkby’ as such, i am just very tired with many of the extremely childish and narrow minded, not to mention extremely dishonest, arguments coming from the ’anti Kirkby’ movement. I would much prefer a City Centre site and I would much prefer a redeveloped Goodison. Serious questions need answering though. Where is this City Centre site? Where is the £200m or whatevre it would cost to redevelop Goodion coming from? ’What if’s and ’maybe’s don’t cut it for me i’m afraid. These stadium proposals take quite literally years. I am not going to resign us to another 10 years at Goodison in it’s current state on the strength of a ’what if’. If you and your boys can show me something tangible, viable and suitable then I will support it. What I will not do is veto Kirkby because it is over an imaginary line or on the strength of a ’what if’. I’m sure you understand that.
Dave you say the dishonesty of the views of the anti Kirby but what about all the garbage from the pro Kirby I am talking about the mythical free stadium, then theres the £50 million enabling loan that we wont have to pay back,thats an insult to any ones intelligence its either a loan or not and tesco share holders are not santa claus then theres the £30million naming rights where did this amount come from I truely wish both sides where honest and admit we all know nothing my worry is if its as good as some believe why the cloak and dagger approach sadly after the Kings dock and the fortress fiasco and the now imfamous 247 seeking investment I would look out the window to check if Bill said it was raining just give us the facts and let us decide also what percentage is the winning number 51% or 75%
What new stadium?
Nobody told me about moving out of Goodison.
There’s nothing like standing in the paddock, with me cup of bovril on a cold winters afternoon watching Alex Young, smooth as silk, out fox the opposition.
I think you’ve all lost the plot.
Move out of Goodison, we’ve just bought matching corner flags.
Bugger off, the lot of you.
Nobody told me about moving out of Goodison.
There’s nothing like standing in the paddock, with me cup of bovril on a cold winters afternoon watching Alex Young, smooth as silk, out fox the opposition.
I think you’ve all lost the plot.
Move out of Goodison, we’ve just bought matching corner flags.
Bugger off, the lot of you.
We have to face the fact that the shower from across the park are going to build a new stadium. If we stay at Goodison, I'm afraid our ground will look like a toilet in comparison. Accept the fact we have to move, and concentrate on finding the right site in the city.
Phil,
"accept the fact we have to move"
That’s a fact? Just because they’re building anew on the park doesn’t mean we should run and cower away somewhere in the sticks..... pick up the gauntlet! I’ve said before, stay close to your friends, closer still to your enemies.
Also, Dave where does £200m figure come from? You have just plucked it from thin air. The figure quoted to me by a stadium architect for plans I have produced are a fraction of that I can assure you. BTW met with the council only yesterday, and I can also assure you that there are potential sites near the centre that are being looked at too.
"accept the fact we have to move"
That’s a fact? Just because they’re building anew on the park doesn’t mean we should run and cower away somewhere in the sticks..... pick up the gauntlet! I’ve said before, stay close to your friends, closer still to your enemies.
Also, Dave where does £200m figure come from? You have just plucked it from thin air. The figure quoted to me by a stadium architect for plans I have produced are a fraction of that I can assure you. BTW met with the council only yesterday, and I can also assure you that there are potential sites near the centre that are being looked at too.
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1 Posted 27/06/2007 at 15:10:08
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