The Mail Bag
I kind of knew this would happen...
Comments (54)
I knew we would get a big win today. It was well, well, overdue. We kind of all knew it was going to happen. Birmingham?s mighty 18-month unbeaten home record, to me anyway, never ever looked fearsome or daunting. Nor did it look so to David Moyes or the Everton players.
I have patiently bitten my tongue all week, and more so, all season. The season where we were supposed to push on and challenge the Sky Four. The season where we were supposed to battle the millionaire spending power of City, and the well tuned machine that is Tottenham.
I write this as a relieved Evertonian, but also as an angry one. Those who were, and maybe still are, calling for a new manager and a shake up on the training pitch, I hope are a little humbled tonight. How dare people question the attitude of the players and the coach at the helm? Are people serious about their claims that we were....are ..... in a relegation fight after six games?.....
?No, It?s ok now. We got that first big win, we?ll be ok. We?ll do the red shite next week and we can start dreaming about 6th spot again.....? No.... we did not get the win on the opening day at Blackburn that we all expected.... No... we did not get as many of the ?X? amount of points I as an armchair coach expected by this stage. But... we turned over Birmingham at St Andrews, something no team has managed for 18 months, and we should have turned over Fulham seven days ago a their home ground, again, somewhere no teams goes and just walks away with points..... and if we had taken one of the many guilt-edged chances we created we would be sitting a little more pretty in the league table....and a higher and mightier in the "i know when to sack the manager stakes" that so many of the fans seem to think they have a right to.
I will quote you directly from the Oxford English dictionary on the word fickle.... ? If you describe someone as fickle, you disapprove of them because they keep changing their mind about what they like or want?. The greatest fans in the world or the most fickle fans in the world? I ask you?
If we?d lost today, no doubt the Sunday papers would be rubbing their hands at the prospect of Owen Coyle or Martin Jol taking over at the helm at Goodison Park. One big win, renewed optimism amongst the real fans and I for one am looking forward to the Derby, a big win and ANOTHER great season under David Moyes? reign.
"But what If we?d lost today Peter...?"
Peter Laverty, Posted 02/10/2010 at 18:37:52
Comments
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
I hope you put your wages on a 'big' win as you knew it would happen.
I agree with Christopher, no need for the tone of your post.
Goon
You carry on dreaming of 6th spot. Easily pleased aren't you.
Buffoon
Whilst I am pleased that we have got the first win under our belts I am not going to get carried away. 3 wins on the bounce, then I will be a lot more positive,
----------------
I got to here and stopped reading. What a ludicrous thing fos someone to write in an article for a discussion forum.
Those who questioned the previous games are not humbled one bit. What an iditoic thing to say.
Todays result was indeed welcome - but it does not change history. It does not change the mistakes made in the previous games. It does not extinguish the validity of the criticisms levelled at those who deserved it. It does not vindicate those who 'bit their tongues' or give them any claim to a lofty position.
This happens everytime there's a bad run..the brady bunch come out of the woodwork after a win as if it's some sort of opportunity to gloat at anyone who offered any criticism. It's a position that defies any logic whatsoever.
We haven't won the league - we have won a good away game..and it wasn't a big win either.
It's a start, but that's all. It certainly isn't a reason for such self-righteous gratification. As fans, we are entitled to criticise factual events - whether you like it or not.... and your frankly childlike butchering of logic has absolutely no bearing on that.
Your opinion is as valid as Steve (Foster's) and Rob's childishly immature ripostes are not.
Everyone is entitled to their views on here without having to put up with such ridiculous insults. Time the moderators stopped such unnecessary and irritating behaviour, which ironically both devalues the author's argument and degrades what is an otherwise excellent site.
That apart, it will be fascinating to see where all those calling for Coyle, Di Matteo, Jol and even Big Joe (bless him), are later in the season.
Because things will clearly not remain as they are.
This is not a team playing without hope or prospects (as under Walter Smith's tenure). He had to go.
Instead, it's a team that still needs one or two pieces of the jigsaw putting in place.
That may well be a right winger and a striker. But I believe what we really need - whoever we may or may not bring in - is to be more ruthless.
The players have got to stand up and be counted. Crucially, they must realise that passing the ball nicely and winning lots of corners is not sufficient.
And please god, today's win gives them the belief they need ahead of facing the worst Gobshite team I have known in all my time as an Evertonian.
There's still a very long way to go and one swallow etc... but a green shoot at last.
So come on you blues.
Actually looking forward to watching MOTD tonight, even though we'll undoubtedly be on last as usual!
The most obvious is of course the traditional 'wanker', 'arsehole' etc.
However personally, I prefer this to someone trying to insult my intelligence.
Peter Laverty began his post...
"I knew we would get a big win today".
Fact: No he didn't.
He then enlightened us with the dictionary definition of 'fickle'.
Plus, he used the insulting expression 'real fans' to describe optimists, which infers those not optimistic are not real supporters.
He suggested (nb: on the strength of a win against Birmingham) that those who have questioned Moyes's tactics should feel 'humbled'
Finally, he not only feels Everton supporters have no right (nb: on an Everton supporters website!) to question anything the manager does, he actually says "How dare people"
In my opinion, he's lucky there aren't about 20 posts saying 'fuck off you self-righteous nob-head!'
What Peter is saying is simply total bollocks.
"I knew we would get a big win today" ? Bullshit! And it wasn't even a big win. It was a very nervy affair for much of the second half.
"If we had taken one of the many guilt-edged chances we created we would be sitting a little more pretty in the league table." ? this mentality is absolute bollocks and I think such posts deserve to be removed because it is pure fantasy and utterly meaningless. We have to deal with the real world as it is ? anything else is total and utter madness. Once you start saying "if this had happened instead of what did happen, then you'd all be saying something else" ? It's facile, pathetic childish fantasy nonsense.
We say what we do because we observe what we see and we react to that. Anything else that relies on some alternative scenario that did not in fact happen is completely irrelevant and should in no way be used to guide our thinking. If that makes me an absolutist, I'm fine with that. This is not a fantasy football website ? it's primarily about Everton Football club, the games they play with the players they have. Once you go down this pathway, it's a slippery slope to some unlimited world where madness lies.
"How dare people question the attitude of the players and the coach at the helm?" ? Bullshit. That is a fundamental right of fans using this website and anyone posting against the idea is posting against the website itself, and should not be provided with the airspace to post.
Calling Evertonians "fickle" is also utter and total bullshit. It's an accusation that's been annoying me increasingly for a while now: the ease with which fans are described as "fickle". "Knee-jerk" is probably another one along the same lines.
Those bandying these terms about usually like to talk in superior tones about their personal "perspective" and an innate ability to see "the bigger picture".
Here's the reality of football: it unfolds on a generally weekly basis. The game is played; the basic outcome is Win / Draw / Lose... Performance: good, bad, indifferent. Luck: present, absent...
The key point of this is change. Few teams win every week; few teams lose every week. And generally speaking, there is some degree of uncertainty about the next result: will we win, lose or draw? No-one really knows... but plenty like Peter Laverty will tell you they do.
Fans are going to respond to each game, based on the result, the performance, and how things have gone, relative to personal expectations or relative to a general feeling about how we as a team should be doing. When your team is bottom of the league, most fans are going to be upset to one degree to another; conversely, when your team is no longer bottom of the league, you're going to be a bit happier about things.
That change in mood is both entirely natural and understandable, in direct response and proportion to the change in performance and results ? rather than something to be denigrated as "fickle". Most football fans are capable of simultaneously supporting their club while realistically assessing their merits and limitations; same applies to assessing the qualities of the players and the manager, and considering the (essentially hypothetical) question: should the manager stay or go?
I say 'hypothetical' because it is not the fans who make such decisions when things go bad. In the case of Everton, that decision is likely down to Bill Kenwright... in which case, as I've said countless times over the last many years, Moyes is going nowhere and the discussion of such a possibility is thus rendered moot.
Are fans "fickle" to suggest that the manger who has taken his team to the bottom of the Premier League table has perhaps taken the club as far has he can, etc etc (see numerous other threads these last few weeks)? I would say absolutely not. Certainly on ToffeeWeb, Everton fans are both entitled and enabled to to discuss such matters ? for the simple reason that they are fans and that they thus share valid concerns about such things.
And I feel very strongly about this: those who wish to only denigrate such discussion should be banned from participating in it.
Or, more succinctly, what Eugene said!
But 1 is enough to say it's all A.O.K
Where to next then?? off to B&Q for some paper and paste for these seemingly none existant cracks then.
This quote is an example of how outsiders view our situation:
Everton, who were unfortunate not to gain that first win at Fulham last weekend, move out of the bottom three and have plenty of time to challenge for the top-six place which is their annual target.
Joe Lovejoy, Guardian.
Also:
it is the threadbare nature of Liverpool's performances that has come as a shock. Scouse traditionalists may insert a joke at this point, to the effect that as long as Everton are even lower in the table Liverpool will never feel the situation is intolerable, but no one is laughing at that one now. Everton are a strong side with a mighty team spirit and will delight their fans more often than they will displease them this season. No one is calling for David Moyes to be sacked. Everton will be all right.
Paul Wilson, Guardian.
It still doesn't address the issues that many on here have expressed, i.e. our strikers couldn't score if they were on a night out with Rooney in a brothel, that the Yak's confidence is shot, he needs to start putting away some of those chances, though his general hold-up play was ok though.
The lads were on tenterhooks for the last 25 mins and can Moyes pull off an overweight tiring striker and put on a younger one with a bit of pace to catch them on the break? No ? on comes a centre-back to play midfield, Bily given exactly 3.5 mins... same old, same old.
What you failed entirely to do was assess any of the reasons why we fared better today than in recent matches. Firstly, Fellaini was in his CORRECT position, holding midfield, secondly we had a genuine centre forward upfront, you know, one that can hold the ball up, play people in, be strong and out muscle the opposition. Third, Cahill was back as a half striker, giving much needed support to our lone centre forward. Coleman was on the right and Osman had by his standards a very very good game, you know, the one in 10 we get from him usually against very poor opposition.
Almost all of the above is what the anti Moyes brigade (and I include myself in that group), have been asking for in order to address our poor performances.
If Moyes could get Osman to play 8 good games in 10, then maybe he should be in the starting team every week. Pip was at right back, therefore unable to destroy the midfield, Arteta was in the middle, his best position.
Therefore, in summary, more players in their best positions, better performance, I've said it before, rocket science this football lark you know.
Finally, Birmingham where poor, so poor infact they made Osman look good on the wing. Bigger tests than Birmingham await, let us see where Moyes plays everyone when they are all fit again and if he can do something other than 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1.
It isn?t natural to censor your own ?bigger picture? in favour of an exclusively immediate reaction; that is, unless it?s a passionate reaction, an attempt to influence or a game of Devil?s Advocate.
It?s frustrating when intelligent criticisms of Moyes transmogrify into a diatribe without offering realistic alternatives or an acknowledgment their absence.
What is childish and immature about replying to an individual who absolutely slates the opinions of those who dared to complain about the Manager when we have been BOTTOM of the league and incapable of threatening the opposing goal in most games.
Whilst a win is very welcome it was BIRMINGHAM CITY which does not exactly make us Kings of Europe. In fact if we reach the heady heights of SIXTH as dreamed of by the author then we will not be doing much in the CL next season either.
I have no doubt we will finish in a respectable position. Respectable sums us up. Final position, acceptance of 'our place' in the pecking order and ultra conservative tactics.
I am sick and tired of us being respectable and respected as club by the likes of Ferguson and Wenger. They respect us because they do not see us as a threat, just a mediocre club doing a bit better than its budget should allow.
We do not want a pat on the head, we want their trophies and CL places. I can't see it coming this season. If everybody shared the ambition of the author then it would never come.
I remember a few years back we played Arsenal at home. We played them off the park. Stunning football, I think the best I have ever seen Tony Hibbert play. Arsenal fouled, scratched, kicked, hoofed the ball upfield, and used every dirty tactic they could to break the game up.
They won 1-4. Respectable no, winners yes.
(nb: the quote above is not mine, it's from someone I invented then quoted).
Good game. Good game.
That said, the result today was excellent, and so I am not going to take Mr Laverty to task any further (even thought he has somewhat asked for it) - and instead I am going to hope (and quietly believe) for more of the same next Sunday; perhaps that is something we can all agree on.
My brother, you will doubtless also remember, was not as enlightened and supported Leeds.
Where the hell did you come from? Don't recall you being an Evertonian. Great to hear from you.
Rob Hollis: I don't object to their reply in any way whatsoever. What I do take offence at however is the fact they can't present their case without calling the person they were responding to a childish name in the process.
It's time such things were curtailed and edited out. Unless the gentlemen concerned are still at junior school, in which case they can be excused for not knowing better.
We won!! Can I get an electronic High-Five?
Anybody?
We fucking won!
Good grief - we do tend on occasion to consume ourselves from the inside out.
So being a bit bitter about our start (or lack thereof) isn't being a negative fan or "consuming ourselves from the inside out." It's the reality of banging your head against a brick wall for the 1000th time while you watch the same ineffectual thing unfolding right in front of your eyes time and time again.
I'm damn glad we won as well but there's a pattern that needs to be broken. As Robbie Shield pointed out, we simply played people in their PROPER positions so they can effectively carry out their duties. Something we didn't do for the first 4-5 games. So a little bitterness is understandable.
Can I get a high five?
James - if the Colts start Peyton Manning at WR and lose their first 5 games, then start him at QB and win one, do Colts fans high five one another? Or do they lament the horrible decision which ruined the start to their promising season, and bitch about it all season long?
The latter.
I was there, and we deserved to win, but that is just the start. Let's brag when we get six on the bounce.
Opponents unbeaten for a year on their patch....
Limited ability to score....
Osman in for our best player....
Lawro tips us for the 'W'....
All things considered, I'll take that result, thanks.
I watched all the first half on p2p etc and we were on top from the word go, and I really enjoyed it. I couldn't get any connection for the second 45 but just watched it on football first. Birmingham came back into it a little after our opener but we contained them well I thought. The Everton players at last gave me the feeling that they completely understood the mechanics of what they were supposed to do - told to do - took it on board and to a man applied it for the whole game. We were rarely in trouble and I reckon Brum fans will be feeling exactly like we felt after the Newcastle result, the difference being they (Brum) actually lost to a (the) better side. I don't know what Bainsey is on but I would like some, excellent. Fellaini too and Cahill, that boy never gives up.
Robbie 21 - Agree it's no coincidence that every player who began the game today started in their correct position. Coleman may be the one who didn't (if we had a sided player say Donovan) but his youthful exhuberance and almost fearless directness make him a big plus. Arteta looked better too without the armband.
The Everton support behind the goal was magnificent and the numbers too, well done to all who travelled, it made good television, if only for a few seconds at a time. It's what Sky is for.
No prediction for the derby we all get nervous on those days, but I genuinely feel we are a better side than them certainly easier on the eye, just need to get that killer instinct.
ps I have taken a lot of stick in work over THAT 'Pink' kit which I have defensively called 'Dangerous Pink' another half-dozen away wins and maybe that could become official.
Fans who criticise Mr Moyes are dead naughty.
I reckon any Everton fans that call for Moyes' head are an embarrassment. If we were fans of any other club looking in after Everton had sacked Moyes due to fan pressure we would be saying how stupid and fickle Everton fans were. (That's right Kenrick - FICKLE. The reason you have heard that word a lot recently might be because it is applicable??)
I am not living in denial Moyes is not perfect but then no manager is but I think we struck gold in signing him all those years ago.
I know he can make mistakes but the man has integrity, passion and desire. He has assembled a very good squad on a shoe string and has the dressing room pretty much in his pocket.
Get off his case. He deserves each and every one of us to get behind him.
I seem to hear the comment "he has taken us as far as he can" every season and every season he takes us further. Even last year - I know we did worse in the competitions overall but injuries blah blah and by the end of the season it felt that we had come further and were a better team.
Peter - you though are as bad as the anti-Moyes brigade and have gone completely over the deep-end. One extreme to another.
Yesterdays result was the tonic we were all looking for but it was a slimline, slightly flat one rather than a full fat one with double Tanqueray - if you get my drift.
At 1-0 with ten minutes to go I said on the live feed that winning 1-0 off an OG just wasn't good enough and was chuffed we managed a goal in open play - albeit the last kick - just to draw a line under that doubt.
I put £20 on us winning 2-1 at 11-1 but hoped more than knew we were going to win. I didn't back the win as we were favourites which I thought was questionable value given BCFC's organisation, fight and home record.
We are getting there BUT we still have not sorted out how we are going to score goals - we need an injection of pace and as one poster above says to discover a ruthless streak we've never really had under Moyes - so I dont expect to see either of these things soon.
So -= shoots of recovery, yes, but yesterday was a start rather than an arrival.
A good performance and convincing win against LFC WILL be a full fat tonic with treble Tanqueray - one I look forward to drinking in a fortnights time.
I do expect us to beat Birmingham.
Whilst its great to finally get a win (last of the 92 league teams to do) The above would suggest that the same issues still stand!
Clown!
The season is already ruined barring a complete miracle (like fifteen wins on the bounce) so, no, it's not going to be "another" great season - it's going to be "another" season of mediocrity, if we're lucky.
As most people say on here, hindsight is a wonderful thing and you should have posted before the game saying that we would win. You had a one in three chance of being right.
Good win against a team that seems to have modeled itself on the way we used to be.
Also, Neville gets back, our captain, and we haven't conceded - coincidence?
Also Pienaar misses his first game and we win - coincidence? (tongue firmly in cheek)
Certainly I felt as though yesterday had been coming even if i didn't have your cyrstal ball.
Afraid i agree with the fickle comments and not sure how MK can get upset about it. Most football fans are fickle by nature of the shifting fortunes of clubs and the passion invested by their followers. I understand that, but do feel that people calling for Moyes head after 6 games are going too far.
You are somewhat right though Peter, but all this name calling and passing personal comments about each other just detracts from the agreed facts!
Most if not all of us want players in their best positions and a more attacking tactic from the manager from the start of each game. We all hope that this will turn the performances in to victories with increasing style and panache! Anyone feel differently?
Also, do you think we should sign that Roger Johnson as a striker in January? He has far more clue where the goal is than any of our players.
One Swallow doesn't make a summer but on this occasion two would be the best summer for a long time !
On that point, when we go head to head with the RS in two weeks time I hope to God we don't lower our standards to theirs like we did last time. Trying to kick shit out of each other never seems to achieve much for us as somehow they always seem to get the decisions (ref Oct '07). If we play to our potential and resist the RS temptation to lower the tone then I believe we can/will get something out of the game. The shite are getting desperate and as such will no doubt come out all guns blazin, - so keep calm, keep ya heads and keep the ball on the floor! Then we will achieve.
This is the gospel of the lord .......
I am not sure what Peter is smoking but he needs to put it down. What garbage!!
Now if we take 6 from our next two then ok maybe we are on the road to recovery but, until then, enough with the madness!
The "I told you so" tone has been prevalent in many posts of late but it's a bit early either way.
I don't know how to describe it in the second half, but it was not pretty.
Big deal we got a win. It should not be papered over by broken glasses that need replacing. We have 6 points from a realistic total of at least 12 points maybe more.
There are serious problems at Everton Football Club at present and 1 win is not going to change much of anything. We have lost so much ground that even attempting to go for champs league next year has got to be completely over now.
In which case for me this season is now over.
Everton FC should attempt to win things not get battered because we have a inferior manager. Inferior in this case means huge deficiencies. Ie Tactically retarded. Can't see and attempt to changes matches, when he does he makes things worse.
Puts subs on with less than 10 mins to go just for the sake of it?
All players out of position? He has so many deficiencies that he shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a premier league team.
The team played inspite of moyse not because of him rings true now as it did under old walter..
Most fans are behind Moyes and nearly all recognise the job he has done.
There's no point criticising people with a differing opinion as it only leads to some of the replies you have recieved.
Saturday was a good day, a deserved win and a performance similar to each away game so far.
We are not as bad as some fans think we are but also not as good either.
Moyes, i think realised a few things that needed putting right.
Coleman, Fellani etc, hard to fathom the delay as plenty of fans were pleading for these changes and consequently the doubts arise on his stewardship.
There's a hell of a lot of football knowledge and sense posted on here so it's only fair to debate if in disagreement ,conversely , rather than ridicule or deformation.
The team still owe us after being fans of a team bottom of the league for a week, beating RS is a requirement for that payback to begin, beating Birmingham for me was an about bloody time boys sort of feeling.
Things have gone tits up of late but most would be a lot more worried if we were playing gash and losing, we weren't, we were bossing games but losing due to the lack of firepower upfront..not an excuse but a cold hard fact. (apart from the dire Newcastle game)
However, the same way you get the screamers shouting for Moyes's head and proclaiming armageddon etc, the same ones are suggesting that we shouldn't celebrate too much over a win against a side no one has beaten at home for year.
We need to celebrate because it's the first time this year in the league that we have had a chance to and in the same vein as their constant doom and gloom, we see the silver lining and grasp at it whilst we can.
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment to the MailBag, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and MailBag submissions across the site.
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
1 Posted 02/10/2010 at 21:45:40
Report abuse
.