The Mail Bag
No YNWA at Goodison
Comments (89)
Just read the Echo found that the family of murdered teen have rallied Everton to play "You'll Never Walk Alone" at Goodison Park before the derby. Now with the utmost respect to his family, I believe this is a highly stupid idea and could wreck the whole point of playing it in the first place. I believe that it would just turn into a crescendo of boos and I don?t believe it?s just.
I agree that there maybe should be a minute?s applause or silence but his murder doesn?t give any justification for somebody to play YNWA at GP. Derbies have highly charged atmospheres and there?s a hell of amount of hatred and passion shown at these games. I?d struggle to keep myself contained while all of those 3,000 day trippers were singing along, I?d become slightly pissed off.
I know people will say after the Liverpool played Z-Cars for Rhys Jones but that was completely different circumstances. The two sides weren?t playing each other and it was for an 11-year-old lad who was highly popular with his red mates and Everton mates. Also we don?t sing Z-Cars and it doesn?t have any words.
I believe we should have a minute?s applause or silence but I believe playing YNWA would be like a red rag to a bull and disgrace the memory of the poor lad.
Nelaj Behajiha, Posted 12/10/2010 at 13:38:09
Comments
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
Just doesn't sit right with me this and that is meant with no disrespect to the young man's family. But you have to question why they would want it played at Goodison in the first place?
I read about the lad's murder on the icliverpool site (as an expat I occasionally look through it) and to be honest, I thought the whole way it was reported was diabolical. Every article referred to "the murder of a young reds fan" or something like that.
- Was the murder to do with his support of a team?
- I know the lad was only 18, but is that to be his lasting legacy? He supported LFC?
As Scousers, we can sometimes be accused of having chips on our shoulders, but our local media don't help sometimes.
I don't think we need any more animosity. My sympathy goes to his family, at this time.
There's no way it should happen, it will achieve nothing positive and, as mentioned above, could create extremely negative reactions.
A really strong dislike (I think the word hatred is unnecessary in the footballing context) has grown up against Liverpool that didn't seem to be there twenty or so years ago. I'd argue this is understandable given the relative treatment of the two clubs by footballing authorities, the media, and even local government. As a result of this, I think to ask Blues to swallow YNWA being played in their own ground, when the song is itself a symbol of the myth and 'aura' that has been manufactured about LFC to the detriment of Everton, is to fundamentally misunderstand what it is to be an Everton fan in 2010.
Again, I would ask why? What's the point?
Charlie, it's a family loss, if the lad was a red, and they want the reds to grieve, so be it. Not at Goodison Park.
As for "When a life is lost, football is nothing." ? WTF? Lives are lost daily... football lives on. What do you want, the entire world to stop? You have really lost all sense of proportion, fella.
They did play Z-Cars at Anfield for Rhys Jones and, let's face it, handled it very well, officials and fans alike. However, as has been rightly pointed out, the two teams weren't playing each other and what worries me is it only takes a well-oiled few hundred to behave disrespectfully and the whole thing could become completely cringeworthy and I for one would find that very difficult to deal with.
If it's deemed a worthwhile thing to do, how about a sensible compromise where EFC play YNWA before the next home game after the Derby. His parents could attend like Rhys's did at Anfield and I'm sure Goodison would then be very respectful.
Or we could play Z-Cars and dedicate it to him and his family.
All other things aside, it is a very tragic loss and I am sure every Evertonian has sympathy for the family.
Charlie, to me, Football is my life ? sad, I know... but I live for watching Everton. I can't find any reason to justify playing it other than to satisfy Liverpool fans. As one person said, surely they could play another piece of music. I believe it should get a mention but my main point is it has nothing to do with Football.
I disagree entirely with Michael Kenrick on this issue, the other lot were exemplary when they honoured young Rhys but conversely they did it in the appropriate manner which is a meaningless game, knowing that it would get the gesture it deserved rather than riling the idiotic few.
I have also received a bit of bashing on the facebook page from reds fans who think that my sensible comments show a lack of respect, that shows just how divisive this subject is and how hard it is for our club to make the right decision.
We don't like being called bitter, let's not give them any ammo!!
The lad was singing Liverpool songs with his mates before he was attacked. Now, not knowing whether he was attacked deliberately for this act it does bring up the feeling that it may have been a contributing factor. Rhys wasn't shot for wearing an Everton shirt was he? Yet we still had him honoured by their lot.
And speaking from a personal perspective I queued for hours to put a scarf down on Anfield after Hillsborough, it's the done thing to show your respect when something tragic happens, isn't it? Is anyone arguing that this young lad getting killed is anything but? COYB
And in response to Dennis Stevens, you have contradicted yourself almost immediately when you stated, "I fail to see the reason for a Liverpool supporter being given a special honour that no Evertonian would get, or expect" and then going on to say that this is just some tit-for-tat issue over the fact that Rhys Jones was honoured at their ground... pathetic.
The petition was started by an Everton fan on facebook in an attempt to show some support to his family, it is a decent gesture with a good purpose. The only time it becomes bad taste is when it could cause an ugly response from people that most would agree are idiots. We should do it for his family, just not at this derby. I just wish people could be more grown up about an issue like this.
And before anyone jumps on my back about the whys and wherefores surrounding who should be honoured at matches in this fashion, let me state that it should only happen in exceptional circumstances, which I believe the Rhys event and this both are.
I think the best response here is to let the request fall on deaf ears BEFORE the derby, and then arrange a tribute at the next home game.
Why have we/some of us become professional mourners. It's a football match and not a shrine, like lampposts you see all over this city. If you want to pay your respects then great; please do so... but let's keep football football.
No wonder people on the outside see us as a self pity city.
I guess some of these comments may offend people and I apologise. But this is a derby match. Remember the silence we had before Hillsborough ?that didn't go to plan did it. Let's avoid any upsets between the two sets of fans by avoiding being put in the situation.
Rhys was a human being, not just a football fan. His relationship to Everton/Liverpool shouldn't be the be-all, end-all of what his life was all about.
Sunday is a local derby and a football match ? nothing more, nothing less ? and it should be played and prepared as such.
Now, I'm sure that every death, indeed every life, is in it's own way exceptional, but there is a danger here that we could be heading for some kind of ritualistic playing of Z-Cars at Anfield & YNWA at Goodison Park to mark every tragic young death. Maybe that would be a good thing, but if people think so then they should make that case. You claim that the idea is a gesture of support for the lad's family, but it strikes me as ill-considered & perhaps a little maudlin.
Lastly, maybe you should choose your words a little more carefully, when you advocate that people should "be more grown up " & yet can't debate the matter without dismissing others views as "pathetic" ?very mature!
We already have to take shite week-in and week-out from a meeja that can't get up the shites arses far enough. Compared to the RS, the meeja loathe our club. Can you imagine those self-righteous sanctimonious twats on MotD? They'd run us through the wringer.
And I'll bet you we'd have the volumes of the microphones up on full belt facing the Street End.
Now that would be a first.
Good shout Howard. I'm with you on this.
COYB
A noble gesture by whoever started the facebook group, but a bad idea nonetheless.
I can't see Everton agreeing to this anyway, but then they dont really have to agree or disagree, just not comment.
Rhys's Z-Cars was due to the issue of gangs, gun crime and the innocent victims. I'm not sure on the murder stats in Liverpool... but, if every one was commemorated it would (1) lose it's meaning as a commemoration; and (2) sully Liverpool with a reputation when so much effort goes into turning it round.
Also in response to an earlier post; yes, we have to draw a line somewhere with regards to whom we honour in this manner. It would set a precedent that is both unrealistic and unmanageable and, as an earlier poster stated, could create a cliche that means these gestures lose all significance. However, if we were to do it in the next home game it would certainly be a nice mark of respect and may even help the grieving process for the family.
Dennis, I stand by my comment: you did contradict yourself, I fail to see were I contradicted myself. I believe your comments surrounding the subject are purposely divisive and that you were trying to make some kind of moralistic judgement, which, yes, I do believe is a pathetic.
If you were to read the previous articles in the Echo and take a closer inspection of some of the comments left by the lad's apparent friends, it's easy to draw a conclusion that footballing allegiances may have played a part in him being murdered.
My comments about people being more grown up about an issue like this are born out of the fact that we should know when to drop our tribalism for a second to realise we are human beings first and foremost and that, when we reach out to others, it can have a profound effect on not just ourselves but our wider communities. COYB
Bitter? dead right, pal, with a lot to be bitter about. The city of Liverpool must have the most markish, "wallow in your pseudo-Irish misery" denizens in the world. Give the lad a dignified send-off ? let all his friends mourn him as they see fit.
Bereavement is personal; grief is for loved ones, not a public event; if it was my child, Charlie, I wouldn't dream of taking my loss to the masses.
For God's sake, is nothing private any more?
I'm not the most intellectual on here but I believe life is full of compromise so maybe it could be a minute's silence/applause at the start, play it at the next home match or even at half-time... but as fans I think we should be respectful of a young life lost. My sympathy goes out the family of the lad and I hope they find some peace.
YNWA
Resist this notion, the influence of reality TV has permeated too much into society. There should at least be dignity in death.
The moment there's any danger that a mark of respect could end up descending into an insult then it should not go ahead. OK, that's not entirely true... there are times to stand up to idiots, as there are always those who want to stamp their right to oppose the wishes of others.
The timing and tribute, in this case, look likely to incite rather than unite opposing fans.
All this story does is add weight to the argument that, despite being a Tory toff, Boris was spot on. These outpourings of collective grief just make the city look a laughing stock. Tragic though this person's death is to his family and friends, why must it be made into something it's not?
The Princess Di syndrome is bizarre to me. Leave the family and friends to grieve but with all due respect please don't include me at the mercy of the self-pitying community coming together minority.
What sort of suggestion? Erm...the 'Unity Cup' (named after him) for school sides to compete in or... um... a donation on his behalf to Alder Hey or... oh I don't know.
The point being, should this facebook thing grow, we want to be in a position to say "Everton FC have already...."
I mean imagine how it would be reported if it did gain momentum, they were to suggest it tomorrow night and we were to say No (or worse, say Yes and boo throughout).
My guess - "After Z-Cars was played at Anfield, what a bunch of mean-spirited shit-bags Everton/Evertonians have shown themselves to be..."
Etc blah.
It could also ignite a potentially volatile atmosphere as no doubt some RS supporters with take great pleasure in signing that at Goodison.
I would imagine the Police would have to be consulted and would be strongly against the idea. The last thing the family needs is to have the boys memory tarnished with ugly scenes at a football match.
It's both sets of fans that would act in a disrespectful way. This lad's murder has nothing to do with football so it should be kept away from GP.
Not sure!
May be we should just be grown up about it. If they play it, respect it for the reasons it is being played.
The thing I wonder is whether this will be a problem every time a Blue or a Red fan dies/is killed.
Unfortunately, those full facts will not emerge before the weekend: the matter of James's death, and the circumstances surrounding it, are now under formal investigation so it is impossible for any of us to gain a clearer picture of this tragedy for quite some time.
That said, anyone who has spent any time in the North Liverpool/Walton area over the past five days cannot have escaped the rumours and accounts that have circulated concerning why and how James died.
It is categorically the case that every account has suggested that inter-city football rivalries played at least some part ? you only have to read the Echo's first account of the tragedy (prior to proceedings becoming active) which hint at this (though that has to be balanced with the fact that the police were eager ? frankly I'm not surprised in a derby week ? to dismiss that aspect). That hasn't or won't stop the rumours, though.
To that extent, then, James's death is not just another death. There is a specific context and, I suspect, that is what prompted the Facebook campaign.
You simply have to ask yourself as to why a Facebook campaign for Goodison to play YNWA has been mounted to mark James's death and not any others? What's so conspicuous about James's death?
In an ideal world, EFC would be in full possession of all the facts before the weekend and be able to make an informed decision on what is, after all, an extraordinary request. Unfortunately the wheels of justice don't move that fast and, for that reason and that reason only, I believe Ian Ross was bang on with his press statement yesterday by laying out the measured reasons for not playing the LFC anthem.
But make no mistake, this is a very, very delicate matter and we would all be well advised, as an Evertonian collective, to keep our counsel on this matter until the full facts emerge.
Put it these two ways:
1) Do I ever want to stand at Goodison and have to listen to that song? Emphatically No.
2) If it was to be proved that James's death was directly the result of inter-city football rivalry bordering on hatred (sic), which spiralled beyond all control and led to a group of so-called Evertonians killing a lad, would I feel it was appropriate to stand at Goodison and listen to YNWA for two minutes as a humble gesture on the part of all us on the Blue side of the park to convey our sympathies and disgust? Emphatically Yes. Would I think it mawkish, pitiful, over-sentimental? Not really no. Extenuating circumstances would clearly apply ? as they did regarding Rhys Jones.
It's unfortunate that the Goodison derby is so soon after James's death. Maybe if it was in April or so, we might have the full facts.
As stated, though, I hope I never, ever have to stand at Goodison and listen to YNWA for I trust that if the club ever played it then it would be deemed sadly appropriate.
We need to wait for the facts to emerge and respect a family's grief.
Judging by many of the comments here, a life clearly, very clearly, isn't worth a song.
May it never happen to anyone in your families.
Ban someone for reactiong (albeit stupidly) to a rivals song being forced on them at their ground. Do me a favour.
As already said so many times, grief is a private matter and a gesture by Everton FC outside of the ground is all well and good and more appropriate but to force that shitty dirge onto us fans and not to expect the idiots to boo is just crazy.
People seem to allude to the fact that just because LFC played Z-Cars we should reciprocate, as if EFC had never done anything like that before... Doesn't anyone remember the first derby after Hillsborough? YNWA was sung by all 4 sides of the stadium ? I know because I was there singing it in the Main Stand! The club should not be bullied by well intended sentiment, otherwise where does it stop?
Now, where is the thread about the FOOTBALL?
The only reason I agree with the suggestion is to protect Everton FC from an unnecessary media reaction and to save myself from overbearing, hypocritical damnations of Evertonians as a bunch of bitter bastards. It winds me up. I can't find a suitably moral or logical reason for a public grieving session anywhere on this world wide web, or for playing their shite song at Goodison Park. If some binding reasons emerge then, alright, play their song then beat their team on the pitch.
I remember the derby after Hillsborough and it?s misleading to say that all four sides of the ground were singing YNWA in unison ? many of us just simply kept our gobs shut out of respect. I recall they did a pretty good job celebrating when they beat us in the Cup Final so life does go on and people quite rightly move on from both personal and communal tragedies all the time ? because we have to.
A minute's silence would be fine and is the most appropriate way to recognise the death of someone. Greg, if there is any truth that the murder was in someway related to football rivalry, then that is dreadful and I hope they find the guilty parties, lock them up, and throw away the key.
My original comment "...a special honour that no Evertonian would get, or expect, at either Goodison Park or Anfield" has not been contradicted in any way - but do feel free to list all the Evertonians I've mentioned that would have that expectation.
Even you have refered to the circumstances relating to the death of Rhys Jones as "exceptional", hence my mentioning him as a point of reference. Unfortunately you seem unable to explain why you consider this recent murder in the same light ? merely some vague comment about "... footballing allegiances may have played a part in him being murdered" ? in other words you don't actually know.
As you seem capable of inventing a contradiction in my post that doesn't exist, I suppose you see no contradiction in your own when you think others should be "grown up" and yet you seem incapable of displaying the same in your posts. I actually find it a little "pathetic" that you feel it necessary to invent imaginary motives for other people's posts so that you can insult them.
I fail to see how playing YNWA at Goodison Park before the derby would be likely to have a positive effect on any wider community, considering how divisive the very suggestion is proving to be just on this website.
If Greg Murphy is right then this is a shocking state of affairs, and one where having a two-bit song shoved down our throats is the least of our problems.
Now I'm as bitter and twisted... in fact, I'm the most bitter and twisted Toffee you'll ever meet (and proud of it) but for a so-called Blue to denegrate what happened that night is a disgrace, and only serves to feed the RS who believe we've never offered help/friendship when called upon.
And as for them celebrating after the final, well that was football!
However, make no mistake about it, it would not go down well at Goodison and would not pass off without incident. For that reason, and that reason alone, the family should not want it to go ahead as it would be counter-productive.
Namely the continuing presence of lawyers and police relating to their many criminal and civil cases?
Id strongly object to YNWA. Not something I want to hear this Sunday.
What I do wish to hear is the jubilation of hammering that lot senseless on the pitch.
Certainly by playing YNWA, it will guarantee an already hostile environment turning into something it should never do.
Ugly will be the least of their concerns at Goodison. They should simply never play it. Find a Lennon song as mentioned above, plenty of them and perfect for the occasion celebrating his life or death whatever.
I just think the whole thing will be a massive disaster if that racket is played at Goodison.
From what I gather, there was a group of lads singing outside this party loudly and this 18-year-old lad was stabbed. There's no evidence that the lad was killed for footballing reasons so therfore I think that should be made clear. While I'm not saying it was justified, it was very different to the Rhys Jones murder and his parents didn't ask for it.
I was there as well and loads of people didn't sing, they just said fuck all. I'm neither bitter or twisted, many people sang YNWA on that night and many didn't.
Who the fuck are you to call ME a so-called Blue? What because I have the honesty to say some people including myself didn't sing YNWA that night? What does this mean ? that I felt no sympathy for those who had died? Once again, the only way some people on Merseyside assume that you can show any respect for the dead is to indulge in some kind of mawkish community ritual ? and if you don't... well, you don't really care, do you?
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment to the MailBag, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and MailBag submissions across the site.
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
1 Posted 12/10/2010 at 04:23:32
Report abuse
Now, you may or may not know, a young lad was tragically murdered recently, and there is a Facebook group set up by an Evertonian petitioning for Everton to play "You'll Never Walk Alone" on derby day. I think it is a very respectful idea and if you could get everyone you know on facebook to join the group and unite our city, it would be a great sign of respect.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Petiton-for-Everton-to-play-YNWA-in-the-derby-for-Jay-Mcvey/140747375972009