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We all have been at some time incredulous at some of David Moyes's team selections and style of play. We have all recognised his favourites and bemoaned his sometime square peg ethos. We all know that we are in much better shape since we have been under Moyes's stewardship, but what I would like to raise is the assistant manager's role.
Kendall & Harvey; Clough & Shreeves... individually ? not great; together ? brilliant. What about Moyes & Round? Round has been mooted for the Boro vacancy; how has he done for us?
I for one wonder sometimes when Moyes has made a cock-up and all and sundry on here can see it yet it seems no-one can tell Moyes ? isn't that his assistant's job.
Would we be happy to see him go? Is there anyone better? What does he do for the team?
Iain Love, Posted 20/10/2010 at 22:53:51
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I saw that Alan Irvine is now manager of Sheffield Wednesday having been removed at Preston.
If you read Damned United you get a good insight into the Clough - Taylor partnership. But to be fair to Cloughie he did manage OK without Taylor when at Notts Forest after Taylor went to Derby. Taylor never managed successfully - and was more of a scout/coach type.
In the modern game the mangement teams are larger so there is less scope for a highly visible no.2 man. No idea about Round at all. Irvine was well respected as a No.2 and is making a living as a manager, but at 50 is unlikely to break into the big time now. However Irvine was a very skilful player (if somewhat ineffective) in his playing days for Everton - and that alone should give him a different perspective to Moyes. Don't know what Round's playing career amounted to.
If you read Damned United you get a good insight into the Clough - Taylor partnership. But to be fair to Cloughie he did manage OK without Taylor when at Notts Forest after Taylor went to Derby. Taylor never managed successfully - and was more of a scout/coach type.
In the modern game the mangement teams are larger so there is less scope for a highly visible no.2 man. No idea about Round at all. Irvine was well respected as a No.2 and is making a living as a manager, but at 50 is unlikely to break into the big time now. However Irvine was a very skilful player (if somewhat ineffective) in his playing days for Everton - and that alone should give him a different perspective to Moyes. Don't know what Round's playing career amounted to.
Apologise to Mr Taylor, but you obviously know what i meant.
I'm not trying to demean Round just wondering how effective he is ?
I'm not trying to demean Round just wondering how effective he is ?
The problem with the question is that unless you are there at Finch Farm and in the dug out/dressing room any point raised is just guesswork.
I am sure that if he was no use he would have been shipped out ala Baz.
I am sure that if he was no use he would have been shipped out ala Baz.
"We all have been at some time incredulous at some of David Moyes's team selections and style of play. We have all recognised his favourites and bemoaned his sometime square peg ethos."
Actually I have never. I always have been and am still amazed by what Moyes has achieved at Everton, and in particular I have never questioned team selection as holistically it works. Probably not the correct word... but what I mean by that is, whilst we might get beat now and then and be able to blame it on Osman, over the course of the season we generally over-achieve. Of course I relate to our current, not our past ? which of course counts for jack shit.
Actually I have never. I always have been and am still amazed by what Moyes has achieved at Everton, and in particular I have never questioned team selection as holistically it works. Probably not the correct word... but what I mean by that is, whilst we might get beat now and then and be able to blame it on Osman, over the course of the season we generally over-achieve. Of course I relate to our current, not our past ? which of course counts for jack shit.
The difference with the Clough/Taylor partnership was that Clough was a lunatic and Taylor acted as his carer, keeping him sane and making sure he kept taking the tablets. Hence the debacle at Leeds.
Remember who was stood next to the Wolly with the Brolly at Wembley that fateful night, yep its the "yes" man himself Round.
I have a lot of respect for Alan Irvine and I think he wasn't adequately replaced. Hearing Irvine interviewed recently for Sheffield Wednesday he really is a top bloke with a strong football oppinion.
We need a foreign coach next to Moyes someone who will get him to fucking open his eyes and engage his bloody brain and possible expose him to something different e.g. that elusive plan B.
Round has come to learn off Moyes whilst bringing nothing to the table. I agree its something that should be looked at.
I have a lot of respect for Alan Irvine and I think he wasn't adequately replaced. Hearing Irvine interviewed recently for Sheffield Wednesday he really is a top bloke with a strong football oppinion.
We need a foreign coach next to Moyes someone who will get him to fucking open his eyes and engage his bloody brain and possible expose him to something different e.g. that elusive plan B.
Round has come to learn off Moyes whilst bringing nothing to the table. I agree its something that should be looked at.
Two victories and bouncing up the table have brought the anti-Moyes/ Moyes-out rhetoric to an end, so perhaps this is the best that can be mustered for anyone who isn't capricious enough to have their beliefs swayed by six points.
I don't know Iain's views on Moyes but I get the feeling this is about right, a posting fanning the last dying embers of a once all incompassing inferno.
It's not the first time this has happend and wont be the last. As we now look to get a Euro spot, and chase down 4th many ToffeeWebbers will forget they were calling for his head and will be singing his praises once again... until next season's dodgy start have events repeating themselves.
Of course, I could be completely wrong Iain! And will take it back if you say differently.
I don't know Iain's views on Moyes but I get the feeling this is about right, a posting fanning the last dying embers of a once all incompassing inferno.
It's not the first time this has happend and wont be the last. As we now look to get a Euro spot, and chase down 4th many ToffeeWebbers will forget they were calling for his head and will be singing his praises once again... until next season's dodgy start have events repeating themselves.
Of course, I could be completely wrong Iain! And will take it back if you say differently.
There seems to have been more support for Irvine since he left than when he was with us.
That said I think he was a decent number two.
Of Round, I do not see much of what he does, but with that in mind he doesn't seem to do anymore or less than Irvine.
Round is certainly well respected as coach to be honest. His name being linked to the Middlesborough job are testiment to that.
Personally if he left I would like to see a foreign influence on our team. May be a Queiroz-type. (That's 'type' ? not necessarily him!)
That said I think he was a decent number two.
Of Round, I do not see much of what he does, but with that in mind he doesn't seem to do anymore or less than Irvine.
Round is certainly well respected as coach to be honest. His name being linked to the Middlesborough job are testiment to that.
Personally if he left I would like to see a foreign influence on our team. May be a Queiroz-type. (That's 'type' ? not necessarily him!)
Nick @ 7.
Don't think the anti-Moyes boys have gone away at all. A derby win will always please all and sundry but let's take it for what it is, they are one-off games and this was there for the taking. They were and are no better than any bottom 4 club.
Don't think the anti-Moyes boys have gone away at all. A derby win will always please all and sundry but let's take it for what it is, they are one-off games and this was there for the taking. They were and are no better than any bottom 4 club.
The acid test for me will be the Spurs game, a team in form with confidence riding high. Let's see how Davy boy sets us up to play in this one.
Totally valid article and very relevant... Moyes give us 90% of what we want but has that 10% brain freeze, i.e. unwavering support for Osman on the right, inability to change a game with decent substitutions... the list goes on. We put up with these just about without quite lurching to the side of wanting to give him the chop but a decent No 2 who doesn't love the Emperors? Pyjamas might just make the difference.
I was quiet interested in that Hake Ten Carter who was number 2 at Chelsea, apparently was involved in the Ajax youth setup and he became available just as Irvine was leaving... he would certainly have brought something extra to the table. Round to me looks like a clone; anyone remember the comical finger pointing by him after the United game, just like Moyes...
So I believe the question stands and is valid: how good is Roundy and is he what we need?
Andrew - 5 - I suggest you find out the full facts before making rash comments like that. Instead of believing everything you see in a book or a film.
There was a long history between Clough and Leeds that meant it was never going to work out ? he did ok at Derby and Forest though.
I don't hold with this Ozzie on the right business. I'm sure Moyes would love to have Donovan or Ronaldo. Ozzie has been brilliant for Everton in my opinion. He was our best player against Brum and had a right go against Liverpool when played on the left. Last year he was outstanding in the win against Man Utd at home and against Fulham away and Hull away in the League Cup. His best position is attacking centre-mid and he is the envy of a lot of clubs.
I don't accept this criticism of Moyes that he is one-dimensional. We have played kick and rush, hoofball and now mostly we are one of the best passing sides in the Premier League. Most of the time Moyes has had only 13 fit players for the last three years without playing the kids. The man has done exceptionally well within the budgetary constraints of the club.
As for Round, he is obviously a top coach. I think often these No 2 guys do not have the personality for the frontman job. They have the knowledge, they are creative and professional but the X Factor is missing. I rate our mangement team as one of the best in the Premier League. Who would I swap Moyes and Round for? A few years ago maybe Wenger and Rice; nobody now.
Who is Steve Round anyway?
I'd never herd of him till he rocked up at Goodison.
I'd never herd of him till he rocked up at Goodison.
James i think i'm right in thinking that every club he has been involved in have been relegated.
Hahaha, fabulous stat Dave!
Maybe we should send him to Anfield.....
Maybe we should send him to Anfield.....
Dave Lynch
#15
'James, I think I'm right in thinking that every club he has been involved in have been relegated'
When were Everton Relegated?
#11 'I was quiet interested in that Hake Ten Carter who was number 2 at Chelsea' ?He worked aa assistant at Chelsea an Barcelona on big bucks, is then manager of many big teams in smallerr european leagues on big bucks... sure he'd take the role as assistant at Everton.
#15
'James, I think I'm right in thinking that every club he has been involved in have been relegated'
When were Everton Relegated?
#11 'I was quiet interested in that Hake Ten Carter who was number 2 at Chelsea' ?He worked aa assistant at Chelsea an Barcelona on big bucks, is then manager of many big teams in smallerr european leagues on big bucks... sure he'd take the role as assistant at Everton.
It would be nice to think of a former striker or attack-minded coach as Moyes's number two for a change, his current and former seconds have all been too similar and defensive-minded; a blend would be a nice change. Would Moyes seek to work with someone who would contradict his set ways though?
"As for Round, he is obviously a top coach. I think often these No 2 guys do not have the personality for the frontman job. They have the knowledge, they are creative..." Kevin#13 Creative? Seriously?
It's fair enough to say that we don't know what goes on at Finch Farm, but we can look at Moyes's characteristics and evaluate his time at Everton. The best aspects carry, from premise to conclusion, Moyes's influence. What impression has Round left since he joined the party?
Gavin above is right.
It's fair enough to say that we don't know what goes on at Finch Farm, but we can look at Moyes's characteristics and evaluate his time at Everton. The best aspects carry, from premise to conclusion, Moyes's influence. What impression has Round left since he joined the party?
Gavin above is right.
Well Gavin is right apart from the fact that Irvine was a tricky winger who probably gave Moyes the small but necessary nudge to take a gamble on the likes of Cahill and Arteta.
But Christopher, DM still got his way with the defensive mindset, I'd like a winner with experience of attacking football who could stand up to Moyes and get an attacking early substitution or formation change with more than ten minutes left of a match or before we concede a goal you can see coming.
Gavin, DM will always get his way because he's the boss.
There have been quite a few No 2s who have really added to a team's fortunes but have never been able to make it as a manager, the best example being Brian Kidd.
But for all those who say we need an attack-minded second in command, I can't argue with that.
Mark (#5) "we generally over-achieve." ? I've always wondered what this meant. To me it's a term used by the media that wishes to downsize any team that has done well as opposed to their top 3/4 of whom they have a modicom of anal status.
"At the end of the day" it's 11 against 11 and at the end of the season the "league doesn't lie" (doesn't Clichey play for the Arse?!?!)
Me, I'd love to get Brian Kidd involved. The best No 2 we haven't got.
There have been quite a few No 2s who have really added to a team's fortunes but have never been able to make it as a manager, the best example being Brian Kidd.
But for all those who say we need an attack-minded second in command, I can't argue with that.
Mark (#5) "we generally over-achieve." ? I've always wondered what this meant. To me it's a term used by the media that wishes to downsize any team that has done well as opposed to their top 3/4 of whom they have a modicom of anal status.
"At the end of the day" it's 11 against 11 and at the end of the season the "league doesn't lie" (doesn't Clichey play for the Arse?!?!)
Me, I'd love to get Brian Kidd involved. The best No 2 we haven't got.
We only see the end result of what takes place at Finch Farm and the workings of Moyes mind. Everything else is a complete mystery.
During games we see Round sitting impassively in the dug out showing as much emotion as a block of wood. On that headset for all we know he could be listening Top of the Pops. Whatever it is he certainly does not tell Moyes about it. At least not as far as I can see.
The overall impression is that he is a Moyes clone so we should not expect any fresh new alternative advice to flow between them.
Gavin and Christopher, as two contributors with whom I'd generally agree with, would you not concur that ? considering the reasonable investment over the last five years ? a different, attack-minded coach might have the club in a much better position?
Old proverb:
You can lead a (attack-minded ) coach to Moyes, but you can't make him think.
And as someone said, how we are set up Vs Spurs may give us some idea that it is the real deal and not just Hobson's Choice forced on him by injuries.
You can lead a (attack-minded ) coach to Moyes, but you can't make him think.
And as someone said, how we are set up Vs Spurs may give us some idea that it is the real deal and not just Hobson's Choice forced on him by injuries.
"Two victories and bouncing up the table have brought the anti-Moyes/ Moyes-out rhetoric to an end."
Erm, nope. I still don't think he can take us much further. The Liverpool game aside (a game where we were underdogs and we could cast ourselves as the battlers - which Moyes loves), we've been disastrous all year.
I honestly think he should go at the end of the season and try something new. As for Round, it doesn't matter who is number two at Everton; Moyes is notoriously stubborn and will be defensive or not select players regardless of who sits next to him on the bench.
Erm, nope. I still don't think he can take us much further. The Liverpool game aside (a game where we were underdogs and we could cast ourselves as the battlers - which Moyes loves), we've been disastrous all year.
I honestly think he should go at the end of the season and try something new. As for Round, it doesn't matter who is number two at Everton; Moyes is notoriously stubborn and will be defensive or not select players regardless of who sits next to him on the bench.
"If you read Damned United you get a good insight into the Clough - Taylor partnership. But to be fair to Cloughie he did manage OK without Taylor when at Notts Forest after Taylor went to Derby. Taylor never managed successfully - and was more of a scout/coach type"
Except that The Damned United was pretty much entirely fictional, as conceded by the author and insisted upon by Clough's family.
As for the role of the assistant, its extremely hard to ever know what impact they're having. We could do with a 'Do I Not Like That' style documentary where they're all miked up. At least that told us that Phil Neal was little more than a gibbering simpleton capable only of repeating what Graham Taylor said or ridiculous media style soundbites ("its a bold decision boss").
Moyes strikes me as a guy who's assistant is simply there to do what he's told and share some of the workload. The fact that he managed us without one for so long is testament to that. A great assistant would disagree with and contradict his manager (in private) when necessary, giving him an alternative viewpoint. I'll bet there are very few of them around, and even fewer managers who like that type of assistant.
Except that The Damned United was pretty much entirely fictional, as conceded by the author and insisted upon by Clough's family.
As for the role of the assistant, its extremely hard to ever know what impact they're having. We could do with a 'Do I Not Like That' style documentary where they're all miked up. At least that told us that Phil Neal was little more than a gibbering simpleton capable only of repeating what Graham Taylor said or ridiculous media style soundbites ("its a bold decision boss").
Moyes strikes me as a guy who's assistant is simply there to do what he's told and share some of the workload. The fact that he managed us without one for so long is testament to that. A great assistant would disagree with and contradict his manager (in private) when necessary, giving him an alternative viewpoint. I'll bet there are very few of them around, and even fewer managers who like that type of assistant.
Jon (22), I'd say "we generally overachieve" can be straightforwardly be defined at finishing higher in the actual league table than we are in the money spent (on transfers and/or wages) table.
I'm pretty sure we do overachieve consistently on this definition, and the facts are out there and have been linked to on this website before.
I'm pretty sure we do overachieve consistently on this definition, and the facts are out there and have been linked to on this website before.
Christopher (19) - I don't know if Round is creative or not as I've never been to Finch Farm. I've seen the drills before the game on the pitch several times and there is no doubt that the training is thorough and professional. I coach a kids team with some considerable success and one of the measures of success I suppose is the attitude and demeanour of the players. I see Everton as generally a happy lot with some clear generals and leaders (Cahill, Arteta, Neville). I extrapolate from that that the training regimes must be pretty good. It is hard to keep players fresh and interested at training although the best way is often to just get them playing a game against each other. All the noise about Round seems to be that he is highly organised and professional and as for the complaints above about being a Moyes clone I see that as a good thing as we are one of the few teams attempting to play passing football in the Premiership. The irony seems to be that we are capable of outpassing some of the top four teams now but get outmuscled by the likes of Wolves and Blackburn.
Jon Cox (#22), I'm talking in financial terms. We don't have the money to compete with the top teams - in fact we don't have the money to compete with most mid table or even some recently promoted teams. So by constantly being in and around the European places, I would say we're over achieving. There's often a theory that if another manager came in we'd be better - but these other managers are spending more money than David Moyes and finishing below him. Why would they do better than him at Everton? Because of our 'history'? Bullshit.
Nick 8 - I think Moyes has done a fantastic job for us during his tenure and I would be hard pressed to name someone I would prefer in that role. That doesn't mean I think he's perfect, I do think he's tactically poor and would benifit from a strong No 2 who has strength in those areas. For example, in centre-midfield a creative player and a destroyer work well together, I'm not sure that Moyes & Round are a match made in heaven and I wondered what others thought?
I have just reread my original post and can see how some could be mislead into thinking it's about Moyes, happily not most.
Sorry just getting back to you lads. Kevin, the problem with Moyes is his lack of creativity, though. Tactically during games, he has let himself down by being too defensive. Probably his natural inclination. Round isn't Moyes clone...I wish he was..he just hasn't challenged Moyes,successfully, to change games when even the majority of fans can see than Everton are not playing to their attacking strengths. That means he is either inadequate or ineffective.
Andy, I've asked this question before. Who can Everton improve our overall lot with a clown running the club. I'm not detracting from Moyes' acheivements with that comment. Just accepting that Everton could and should be better at the moment.
Andy, I've asked this question before. Who can Everton improve our overall lot with a clown running the club. I'm not detracting from Moyes' acheivements with that comment. Just accepting that Everton could and should be better at the moment.
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1 Posted 21/10/2010 at 04:41:26
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a) What does Round bring different to the little and large partnership, well we don't actually know, but the next point
b) If it is another view point and not more of the same keep it tight and pinch one...does Moyes listen.
Most of the evidence suggests to me that no he doesn't.
So whats the point in changing.
There is a definition of 'an Intelligent man' that goes along the lines of... 'somebody who agrees with and/or thinks the same as I do'.
The green public transport mob are not going to have much to do with Jeremy Clarkson are they.