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Scouring the loan market, a sign of things to come?
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A fairly open question for discussion. We are currently looking to scour the market for strikers and anyone else that could turn around the season with our small squad and Pienaar more likely to leave and one of our strikers; Vaughan told he can go if anyone puts in an offer. Our players will all be another year older come the end of the season, none of the youth or new players seem anywhere near the first team.
Is anyone wondering if this is the new shape of things to come and will be now be looking to loan players for the whole season?
The current income of the club appears to be: next season's Sky money, already borrowed against to pay existing creditors; Goodison Park, with multiple mortgages on it; Bellefield, still waiting for movement on the development (we're in a global recession if you hadn't noticed so house prices not as boom as they were); and, finally, the players registrations/contracts being his only assets left.
The latter appears to be our only source of income and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise the only players you can make decent money on would be your better ones, thus weakening the squad... which would have the consequence of affecting league table results ? a spiral you'd need to stabilise surely? How would you stabilise that spiral in reduction of quality in your squad if your current youth players aren't breaking into the first team and you can only unearth so many diamonds from lower leagues???
Less and less money as Kenwright is failing as the chairman of the club and the cupboards are bare... but for the players who are needed to keep the club in the league and to compete.
- Who would loan a player to a club who is unlikely to buy them at the end of the loan unless they are kids that need game time?
- Has the lack of money finally got so bad that we literally can't afford any new players whatsoever?
- If the only assets left are players, how long before even that runs dry and then what?
I just wonder how much (financially) Bill Kenwright is beholden to Sir Phillip Green? Ever since Desperation Kirkby went pop, we haven't made a significant player purchase or has any "ringfenced" (cough, BULLSHIT, cough) money evaporated?
Gavin Ramejkis, Posted 18/12/2010 at 16:59:39
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Also, consider which players we haven?t signed as a result of loans: Senderos, Jo, Castillo, Gravesen (part II), Gardner, Jeffers!!! (Part II). Granted, people will cite Fernandes as the one that got away, but he is the exception rather than the rule.
Now, if only we?d have signed AvdM or Krøldrup on loan?
I believe Green has been monitoring the purse strings so tightly the last 18 months and Moyes doesn't like it ? which is why he is walking around in a permanent strop.
However, we might be a bit more optimistic about keeping Pienaar if the following comment was actually made by Moyes:
?I?d like to think maybe we could get Steven to stay again,? he said.
?I?ve always said to him if you want to come back and talk, then do. If he wants to stay..."
It's not a new thing either, wasn't Super Kevin Campbell brought in on loan initially...? It does have its merits in a kind of "try before you buy" way, I reckon it's the only way to do business in that respect.
We have assets we can sell which won't weaken the squad one iota as they aren't being played and they are shite when they do grace the field. I don't even have to name the culprits do I? Shit, I already have...
Oh and KPR, on another thread you told me Graeme Sharp came as an unknown from Rangers not having scored; very true ? he never did score a goal for Rangers as he never played for them, he came from Dumbarton with a record of 17 in 40.
The Man City cast-offs and Bendtner smack of desperation. They would be purely short term as there is no way we could afford them. It's a pretty depressing business being an Evertonian right now.
I've always been of the belief that our club finances are being run by absolute idiots. Add to that the marketing ? or complete lack of.
I was one of those saying this would be our year of challenging for the title. I stand by that belief at the start of the season as all the positive signs were there. If we can't believe we are ever going to win the league one day (or have a plan to do so), well what's the flaming point? I am patient. I can wait a few seasons, but I want to see progress at all levels of EFC to take our club to the heights it should be at.
We can't buy until we sell and selling in the January window to the 1st bidder might not get us the player's worth...
KPR, Duncan only played 14 games for Rangers and scored twice, he played a lot more for Dundee Utd scoring 28 goals in 77 appearances which isn't bad considering he actually started out as a centre half who progressively got pushed further and further up the pitch by consecutive coaches.
"I've always been of the belief that our club finances are being run by absolute idiots. Add to that the marketing ? or complete lack of."
I know an accountant who went for a job at Everton about 7-8 years back and she said they were still doing all their books pen and paper style at that stage. She turned down the role and ended up with a job at the FA... now that's a whole other story...
His record at Dundee wasn't bad but it seems as his career progressed the goals diminished and the injuries increased, anyway, it's a pub league so....
His strength was his strength and I feel he was a leader. He made the team give 100%. I reckon he'd have something to say in the dressing room come half-time if you had strolled around like some of ours do just now..
The number of business opportunities we have missed is criminal; the major ones for me being Capital of Culture and any marketing whatsoever of our Cup and European runs.
Did you ever meet Duncan, KPR? He is a really nice bloke but to be honest he didn't seem to have much love of football and was always more interested in his pigeons. I can sympathise as the industry I've worked in for over 20 years I despise but it pays really well, neither of my alternative choices would have such returns.
I don't think he will let Bily go, even though he should, as it will be a sign of another Krøldrup purchase, so he may persist with him. JH has to go before he knocks Moysie out in his office and I think SP may re-sign.. but don't quote me.
BTW did you or your family live in Kirkby in the early sixties? I went to school with a girl called Ramejkis ? it was spelt the same way and sticks in my mind.
Look at our attendance against Wigan, I've not seen it that empty for ages, I'm sure part of it was down to the shitty run we are on at the moment but people's finances only reach so far. Less people going to the game means less income for the club. 32,000 ish at the game, 40,000 capacity. 8000 unsold tickets at £25 ish is £200,000. Plus a few scarves, pies, pints etc maybe £250,000-£300,000 lost income. (Please dont pick apart my example, it's only a very loose approximation but it makes my point I think.)
As for our alleged loan targets:
Donovan ? I'd have him back in a flash.
Santa Cruz ? Sell some "Santa" hats but he seems more injury-prone than Saha.
Adebeyor ? bit of a cock but is strong, big, good in the air and can finish. Could do well in our 1-up-front system.
Bentley ? not fussed but could do a job.
SWP ? would add pace but final ball is worse than Cap'n Pips. (I read someone on here once say SWP stands for Shite Wing Play!)
Bendtner ? Pink boots, thinks he's Lionel Messi when he's more like Lional Blair!
Big Dunc didn't get pushed further and further up the pitch by consecutive coaches. DF only played for 1 coach at Dundee Utd and that was the indomitable Jim Mclean, he left the same year Jim stopped coaching and moved upstairs, went and signed for Jim's former Number 2 who had just been made Rangers' number 1 after Souness left ? yes, you guessed it: Walter Smith.
He actually played 21 times and scored 5 goals in all competitions (one of my best mates growing up was a Dundee Utd fan).
He was also a British transfer record at the time he went to Rangers for £4mil. (That was way back when BSkyB thought all football was worth shedloads of cash.)
Martin, I meant in his football career, Duncan started life as a centre-half and by each of his coaches he was pushed further up the pitch to become a target man, even back then hoofball was alive and well. Duncan is always remembered for his towering headers but in his days had two great feet too and was really good in defending corners.
Gavin,
Could you expand on this paragraph? Marketing of our Cup run etc ? in what way?
Fast forward almost 20 years and he?s got something right, that there has never so much money coming into the game, but what is becoming clear that unless a club has ?investment?, which in football terms means find some soft bastard with more money than sense to throw bundles of the stuff at the club with little or no chance of seeing it again, then the club is going to struggle. There are exceptions to this, ie The Arse, or Man U or even the RS that can attract gates of 70k+ (which is why the RS saddled themselves with Hicks & Gillette).
What will be interesting this transfer window is Chelsea, because if they don?t spend significant amounts of money, then we?ll all know that the financial game is up for football.
Take the current Citteh model; unfashionable club that has found someone who wants a train set, how do they attract players to the club that in pre-train set days wouldn?t touch them with a barge pole? Why of course pay the players stupid, economics-of?the-madhouse wages.
Except of course Tevez, feels that £160k (or whatever) he?s being paid is not enough; he?s homesick but just like Rooney who was willing to trade the hurt of playing in a declining clubs for fucking wads and wads of extra cash, Tevez will stay for a doubling of wages.
And the train set owners, Abramovich & Arab oil now realise that no matter how much money they throw at their new Hornby, it will never be enough.
Which brings us back to Philip Green; now our Phil is allegedly not a football person but to state the bleedin? obvious, is a successful businessman, and views the economic model that football operates as barking, and obviously wants nothing to do with it, therefore if he is holding the purse strings of the club, is he bleeding us dry or attempting to introduce some sanity into the business?
Now I?m neither pro- nor anti-Kenwright, and the 10-year football mad boy that I still am dreams of an oil sheik, Russian oligarch, international drug dealer ? any bleeding one with money to burn, coming over the hill like the 7th cavalry to rescue our season.
However, this is not the way to run a business, and any business that cannot fund itself ? especially with the levels of income that it is receiving, is in trouble... and it?s just a matter of time that football in general and Everton in particular slip off the tightrope
DJ: "Today's song has been specially selected by Toffeeweb readers to reflect Chairman Bill's economic model for the club. It's the FAB FOUR with 'I Get by
(buys) with a little help (loans) from my friends.'"
Producer: "He's doesn't have any friends left, they are all now EX-Friends or have gone off to watch Spurs."
DJ: "Right then, folks, it's back to another classic scouse melodrama for this one: 'Living on the never, never'"
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No they weren't. We didn't buy in the positions we needed to... see the 'balance' article.
I have to say that does not surprise me. The whole marketing and Everton as a brand needs root and branch reform. You get the feeling the people with the power are happy to just plod along though. The website for one is a total joke!
I remember seeing / hearing Kenwright being interviewed numerous time on Sky Sports News and on Radio during our cup run. In fact, if I remember rightly, he was interviewed on Radio 2 talking about Everton on the morning of the semi-final and the final.
However, most people on this website have attacked Kenwright for coming on TV and radio during the times when the team are doing well ie a cup run, but not during the times when the team is not performing. People can't have it both ways. You can't attack someone for not getting his face on TV and then criticise him when he does saying he only does it in the good times.
I actually felt the club sold a good level of merchandise for the cup run. The people I went to the semi final and final with were all wearing merchandise they had bought from the club shop specifically brought out in relation to our cup run, ie T-shirts, hats etc.
The whole business model of the EPL is unsustainable but as Arsenal have shown can be levelled with a good crack to break the monoculture of pitch related income, Everton simply don't have significant non game income and barely exploit game income, they have borrowed heavily on next season's income which worries me. How long before they run a cropper and have fuck all else to trade on?
It's the manner and reason of why he comes to the media and it's usually some self-proclaiming back-slapping gushing rubbish rather than to promote the club and seeking investment and or a buyer.
Are you suggesting Kenwright should contact the likes of Sky Sports / Talksport etc etc and ask if he can have a five / ten minute slot to speak to the public in order to allow him the opportunity to detail out why people should invest in everton. Is that the type of thing you mean?
Christ a modicum of media savvy would have anyone chomping at the bit if they knew they were going to be heard or seen by millions and had something to sell for the free advertising. Not once have I seen or heard him do anything remotely approaching promoting the club for investment or sale.
Sat 17 Dec 10 v Wigan (H) 0 - 0 ? 32,853 16th
Sun 20 Dec 09: Birmingham City (H) 1 - 1 ? 33,660 16th
Sun 7 Dec 08 Aston Villa (H) 2 - 3 ? 31,922 8th Sky
Sat 8 Dec 07 Fulham (H) 3 - 0 ? 32,743 7th
Sun 17 Dec 06 Chelsea (H) 2 - 3 ?Yobo 33,970 10th Sky
As for the midfield, I think giving Rodwell a lot more games will compensate for the loss of Pienaar as one of the main strengths of both players is their ability to run at defences. I think Rodwell also has enough experience at this stage to justify giving him more games anyway.
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like Moyes is ever going to give Bily the opportunity in a more central role to prove himself. With little in the way of young flair players coming through, we will still be under the added pressure of trying to find a creative player to take some of the burden off Arteta.
Tony, Green appears to be someone that BK knows and went cap in hand to, Green is savvy and looked for his payout though with the retail carrot of Kirkby which didn't come off and has since pulled back the credit line. Earl too is a Spurs fan but smacks of being a front for Green and BK to buyout Gregg and hasn't been seen since, christ Gregg probably went to more games than Earl.
We fail and get relegated and we lose the Sky money, yeah but we aren't exactly hanging in the top end of the table with the high wagers are we?
"Christ a modicum of media savvy would have anyone chomping at the bit if they knew they were going to be heard or seen by millions and had something to sell for the free advertising. Not once have I seen or heard him do anything remotely approaching promoting the club for investment or sale."
Do you mean for example by going on national TV / Radio etc numerous time stating that the club is up for sale and that the club are looking for buyers / investors etc??? If so, he has done this numerous times on Sky Sports and Radio etc.
However, you seem to suggest in your posts that the club is not actually for sale. If this is what you believe then I don't really understand why you are surprised that in your opinion he has not gone out into the public domain and tried to sell the club to people through the use of the different media outlets.
Andy Crooks, don't get me wrong ? I was impressed by Duffy, he has decent presence and ability but seemed to come off the boil in the game I watched him play after Hibbert went off alongside him at centre-half... but admit I haven't seem him play many games. If he doesn't get game time, he'll not improve either.
You said before "Not once have I seen or heard him do anything remotely approaching promoting the club for investment or sale." and "I'm talking about marketing the club and letting potential investors know its available for investment/sale."
I have stated that he has done this numerous times and you could more than likely see / hear the articles / interviews by going on Google. However, this now does not seem to be what you are actually after.
So... what exactly is it that you want Kenwright to come out and say to the media regarding Everton?
Everton... well, we've had years upon years of a lack of investment and have managed to make a mess of our own opportunities ? such as the Kings Dock project.
He has totaly failed to invest in the stadium, even now, with the proposed new development for the car park, he is failing to make the most of improving the ground.
With a little more imagination, and possibly a share rights issue, we could develop the Park End stand at the same time.
Lets be honest, it could be done, but it won't... Why?
Because he would have to dillute his shareholding, and he won't or can't. (Green, anyone?)
David and anyone else who claim the club is for sale, Google it yourself and ask what the difference between looking for investment to for sale to looking for investment ad nauseum... then the DK hearings papers make BK sound like. The trouble these days is that there is far more information available for people to look at before they make a decision on what they do and don't believe. What is it about denial that you can happily attribute to anyone that calls BK as they find him yet can't possibly think old blue rinse is in denial himself?
Is the club for sale or not? If so, what's the price and why is Green involved? If not, why not? If not what are the terms on offer for the investment? What are the conditions? ? such as BK remaining on the board in both a sale scenario and an investment one?
There are quite a few I could think of that need a break here and there, ie, Howard, Saha, Neville, but no... get at the young ones first... DM OUT NOW!!
"Is the club for sale or not? If so, what's the price and why is Green involved? If not, why not? If not what are the terms on offer for the investment? What are the conditions? ? such as BK remaining on the board in both a sale scenario and an investment one?"
I presume these are the things you want Kenwright to answer???? Would you really expect someone running a business to come and and start stating these facts to the general public? Who else in business does this?
I can understand his attitude in a way. Everybody has a horrible ignorant twat at work who everybody hates. I can imagine the frequency of ignorant twat in football being quite high...
I've said it before and I'll say it again: in 20 years time, we will be no bigger than a Burnley or a West Brom, yo-yo-ing between the top two divisions, playing in front of about 20,000 fans who bang on about "the good old days" and struggle to remember when we were a force to be reckoned with. I literally cannot envisage a different scenario.
And for those of you you say "It'l never happen, we are too big a club", that's precisely my point; it DID happen, to Wolves, West Brom, Sunderland, Stoke, Preston, Burnley, Leeds, Nottingham Forest... all huge clubs who fell from grace, and out of that lot only Sunderland arguable ever (partially) recovered.
Is the club for sale? ? YES/NO
Is Kenwright still looking for investment? ? YES/NO
Depending on the day of the week, anger levels of the supporters, if the decorators are in Aunty Billemina's house, you get a different answer.
I'd expect a company for sale to be advertised as such not change the fucking tune to suit the situation.
You have said you want Kenwright to come out and tell the media the club is up for sale. He has done this. You have asked him to come out in the media and say he is looking to bring people with more financial power into the club. He has said he is trying to do this.
Whether you or I choose to believe him or not is a different issue completely.
The simple fact is that most big/biggish companies aren't owned by one individual, whether public or private companies, but a number of shareholders, and if a person or organisation wants to buy a company they offer the shareholders x amount to but their shares. Stan Kroenke has been quietly buying Arsenal shares for the past 3 to 4 years.
In business, it doesn?t really matter whether the owners wish to sell, if someone wants to buy, they?ll make a move; witness the many hostile takeovers of companies such as Cadbury's, and although that was a listed company, there have been many examples of private, even family-owned company where one of the shareholders has broken ranks and sold their shares to the highest bidder in the teeth of fierce opposition from the other partners.
Besides, if a company/individual wanted to buy Everton, it would be all over the papers ?Russian oligarch/Sheik, eyes Everton FC? that sort of thing, they tend to put out feelers to smoke out the shareholders. The fact that no one has put in an offer leads me to believe that Everton isn?t considered attractive, either as a straight investment or a flagship loss leader for the House of Saud for example.
Our problem is that we view football through blue-tinted glasses; take off the glasses and all you can see is an ailing club with nil investment and limited scope for generating extra income.
If our great club was taken over by proper business people who wanted to make it grow then the opportunities are massive.
I've heard the arguments before about so called buyers running to the press like a spoilt brat that didn't get their way, "Oooh, bad man Bill won't sell to me, isn't he a rotter." They move on and buy something else, why would they want to see their arse in a failed attempt publicly?
How in this day and age can you seriously ask anyone to believe that, beyond Bill's Fairy Tales to get rid of Gregg, we have never been approached by a buyer? I removed the blue-tinted specs a long time ago having seen the club fall by the wayside year by year thanks to Bill.
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1 Posted 18/12/2010 at 22:06:32
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While we have a 26-year-old former breakdown mechanic who couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo that we got for free from the 3rd tier of English football! The mind boggles!