The Mail Bag
Exhaust off car
Comments (53)
Strangely the title of this post is true... and a convenient analogy for our great club.
I sit here wondering if we will sign anyone today. I have to admit though that I write this with little detailed knowledge about our finances but I do get the sense that we are broke. So what does BK and the Board do?
It seems to me the situation is very like the situation in the country as a whole. You can make cuts and then more cuts. You will then have a deficit reduced. The problem with this is you end up with no services and only the rich survive.
The alternative is you borrow and invest. But that means we have to put up with cheap players for a while longer. That is why Moyes is crucial. He is a master at that.
In our case, the investment must be the ground (Goodison or elsewhere ? doesn?t really matter). Getting mediocre loan players will probably do little to our performances and we have a team that can keep us mid-table ? probably what we can expect for a while. To improve the team, we need that new ground or a better Goodison.
Now what I don?t know is if we can do this. Can we borrow the money for the ground? Well, if we cannot, then BK cannot be criticised now for his management of the club (I know Kings Dock was a mess but this is now).
So then we have the sale option. My sense is that there are not buyers at present. Why? Well, would you??? So we have a Catch 22. New ground = investment; No investment until new ground. No loan available for new ground.
The only hope is that the current Board are liars like many say and that there is a queue of interested parties. I just think that is make-believe.
So, if I am BK ? what do I do? If there is a genius out there who knows, great. Otherwise the Supporters Trust seems the best idea I have seen for years. Then we can change from being fed up moaners to being active parts of the finance.
Ged Simpson, Posted 31/01/2011 at 10:51:30
Comments
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
Tim, I read that and all I can say is "WOW".
Anyone seen the video of Moyesie commenting on the transfer situation? He looked rather morose, as if he had just come back from his own funeral. Not a happy bunny ? are there stirrings of unease at Goodison after years of broken promises?
Couldn't agree more, Tony (3). Moyesie's centre-half stare was at its worst. I reckon Kenwright has said, "You've got enough to see you through to the end of the season, get on with it. Besides Anichebe and Coleman signing new contracts is like two new signings."
Clearly Moyes wished to freshen up the striking department and he is clearly disappointed nothing is happening whilst across the park Suarez and Andy Carroll have been courted. No wonder he considers draws at Anfield "incredible".
I reckon Moyesie is walking, it's incredible that we keep getting rid of players and not replacing them. Our squad is that small, two injuries in either defence, midfield or forward positions and we're knackerd.
Someone needs to have a word with BK, how can other clubs who I believe are less attractive than ours be getting in quality signings either on loans or on a perm contract? I feel sorry for the players.
Ged,
How new are Villa Park and Loftus Road, for example?
How new are Villa Park and Loftus Road, for example?
Moyes looking morose. Just a normal day then. He has that 'thousand yard stare' that Vietnam vets are said to have. I don't like him but if I ever seen him would I fuck tell him!
Got a bit excited then saw Evertons name pop up on the Skysports live transfer deadline day feed Skysports.com understands Everton............................................ youngster Kieran Agard on loan to Kilmarnock.
Awesome!!
Awesome!!
If Moyse is master at getting blood out a stone, then Holloway is god!!
There will be no signings and this summer there will be more sales as predicatble as clockwork. Another posting of "trying to land Eagles at Goodison", if you turn up today you'll see Billy Bullshitter with one of those gauntlets on trying to entice a seagull to land on it with a couple of tickets to Blood Brothers.
Blood Brothers - A good production that.
I say again re a solution to the shit we are in : Is " there is a genius out there who knows" .
You are missing the point, Ged. Bill Kenwright is a hapless loser as a football chairman, in 9 years or so (I cant be arsed looking it up) since he took over he has done bugger all to improve the clubs stadium or financial situation.
Its not "bad luck" or "one of those things"; sometimes the man in charge has to take the blame if things are going tits up. and BK is in charge. and things ARE going tits up.
Its not "bad luck" or "one of those things"; sometimes the man in charge has to take the blame if things are going tits up. and BK is in charge. and things ARE going tits up.
just heard on the Leicester forum..."Leicester are preparing to approach Everton with a proposal to sign out-of-favour Toffees midfielder Diniyar Bilyaletdinov on loan.".... I don't believe this for one minute but if it happens then we must be close to administration for this to happen.
We have got more chance of seeing a dodgy Eagles tribute band playing at Goodison.
Ged....if I were BK and "only want what's best for the club" then I'd state publicly that I would sell my shares for the price I paid for them plus an add-on for inflation
I would then check the buyer was "suitable" (whatever that means!) and willing to commit their savings on the market price to helping the club
Now, don''t you think that would be interesting?
I would then check the buyer was "suitable" (whatever that means!) and willing to commit their savings on the market price to helping the club
Now, don''t you think that would be interesting?
Don't get me wrong, I have had enough of BK also. But who the f*ck will take over? He is the majority share holder, so to sell his stake he would need a buyer. There are none!! He's not exactly going to say 'oh, I think it's best I resign and let my shared desolve into the club'. I know I wouldn't.
Ged.....Jesus H Christ we know that......
A bid no bid for Eagles...jesus we are fooked.
You are missing the point, Ged.
Am I Jimmy.
I ask you again - come up with a fucking answer.
It is the inability of anyone to come up with any kind of credible solution that makes me so worried about our great club.
And Andrew - yeah some of us do know that but how many are just yelling for sackings without looking beyond their very short noses ?
Am I Jimmy.
I ask you again - come up with a fucking answer.
It is the inability of anyone to come up with any kind of credible solution that makes me so worried about our great club.
And Andrew - yeah some of us do know that but how many are just yelling for sackings without looking beyond their very short noses ?
Tony McNulty 3#. Is that the one from the Telegraph?? yes I saw that and thought to myself he looks really hacked off.
Next big job ... or club with cash! he'll surely give it more than a sideways glance.
Effectively we are moving but down the table more than up and there is stuff all Moyes can do. I think he needs to break the team up and sell most of the assets in order to build a new team around Roders and Felli.
Next big job ... or club with cash! he'll surely give it more than a sideways glance.
Effectively we are moving but down the table more than up and there is stuff all Moyes can do. I think he needs to break the team up and sell most of the assets in order to build a new team around Roders and Felli.
Ged,
What do you think businesses generally do when they want to appoint a suitably experienced and qualified person to take control of their business?
A chairman doesn't have to be an unpaid figurehead, these days, professionals are allowed
One thing business people don't do is sit around the boardroom table moaning "but who could we get in to help?"
What do you think businesses generally do when they want to appoint a suitably experienced and qualified person to take control of their business?
A chairman doesn't have to be an unpaid figurehead, these days, professionals are allowed
One thing business people don't do is sit around the boardroom table moaning "but who could we get in to help?"
Ged, you posted : "Can we borrow the money for the ground? Well, if we cannot, then BK cannot be criticised now for his management of the club (I know Kings Dock was a mess but this is now)." - Where we are now is where the Kenwright's stewardship of our club has brought us. If you don't think we can now criticise his management of the club, when do you think would be appropriate - after relegation or administration? The club has borrowed enormously since Kenwright took over, but none of that money has been invested in redeveloping Goodison Park in order to increase match day revenues, consequently we are in the same position as a decade ago, but with a vastly increased debt to service.
Sadly the supporters can do very little, if anything, to arrest the decline of our once-great club. Perhaps the most effective thing to do is to send your season ticket renewal back with a note advising the club you won't renew or attend any matches whilst the current Board remain in control of the club. If enough supporters were to do so then the Board might be moved to reconsider their position.
Sadly the supporters can do very little, if anything, to arrest the decline of our once-great club. Perhaps the most effective thing to do is to send your season ticket renewal back with a note advising the club you won't renew or attend any matches whilst the current Board remain in control of the club. If enough supporters were to do so then the Board might be moved to reconsider their position.
Just saw Andy Gray in Bellfield.
I wish that was true - maybe Andy Gray could give our "strikers" a bit of coaching regarding the key attributes of a successful forward!
Maybe Dennis, but they would keep getting caught offside :)
Thomas - yeh I think it was in several place, including the Facist Gazette, as you say.
Thomas - Sorry, I don't normally disdain the rules of spelling and grammar. It was in several places, including the Fascist Gazette.
Next time I'll run my posts through the spillchock.
Next time I'll run my posts through the spillchock.
It's very simple.
The Club's turnover is around £80m.
£50m goes on players' wages and even then some greedy little God bothering midfielders say it should be more.
That leaves £30m to pay all the expenses, say £10m and pay off loans. We have had many of these loans that have been used to buy the likes of Yakubu, Fellaini etc. Repayments are probably up to £10m a year. Chuck in $3m for paying off agaents and you are left with about £7m.
Now these are very rough calculations, but clearly this is meaning we cannot go out and spend £35m on Andy Carroll ( although why any sane person would want to is another matter ). Moyes has to whhel and deal, which is waht he has been doing ever since he arrived - hence the £25m net spend over 9 years.
All that will change things is a new owner prepared to guarantee bigger loans from the Bank. All very well, but they can up and leave like Gaydamak at Pompey and leave you in the shit. The matter has been complicated, I believe, by BK wanting to stay on in some capacity, but in reality nobody who has to spend that sort of cash will want to share the throne with him.
Player wages have basically spiralled up out of control and are making purchases, not just the transfer fee, but the wages too, extremely expensive. It's a sobering thought that Arteta's wages for the next 5 years ( £75K X 52 Weeks x 5 years = £20m ) would pay for a big new double decker Park End stand.
Kenwright is far from perfect, but it's not all his fault.
The Club's turnover is around £80m.
£50m goes on players' wages and even then some greedy little God bothering midfielders say it should be more.
That leaves £30m to pay all the expenses, say £10m and pay off loans. We have had many of these loans that have been used to buy the likes of Yakubu, Fellaini etc. Repayments are probably up to £10m a year. Chuck in $3m for paying off agaents and you are left with about £7m.
Now these are very rough calculations, but clearly this is meaning we cannot go out and spend £35m on Andy Carroll ( although why any sane person would want to is another matter ). Moyes has to whhel and deal, which is waht he has been doing ever since he arrived - hence the £25m net spend over 9 years.
All that will change things is a new owner prepared to guarantee bigger loans from the Bank. All very well, but they can up and leave like Gaydamak at Pompey and leave you in the shit. The matter has been complicated, I believe, by BK wanting to stay on in some capacity, but in reality nobody who has to spend that sort of cash will want to share the throne with him.
Player wages have basically spiralled up out of control and are making purchases, not just the transfer fee, but the wages too, extremely expensive. It's a sobering thought that Arteta's wages for the next 5 years ( £75K X 52 Weeks x 5 years = £20m ) would pay for a big new double decker Park End stand.
Kenwright is far from perfect, but it's not all his fault.
A very sobering thought indeed Karl..... Jeeeez...
Nobody forced Kenwright to "buy" the club so it is his fault and it is his fault that he ropes in friends who have no interest in "soccer" to keep him afloat with false promises on new stadiums etc. He battled hard to "buy" the club in 94 and he did his best to oust Johnson as soon as the confetti hit the ground after the 95 cup win. I didn't try to buy the club because I do not have enough money to do so. Kenwright had no money either but some Vaudeville smoke and mirrors he conned enough mugs into believing that he had. Everything that has happened since then is ultimately down to him. HE ALONE IS TO BLAME.
Karl, on the one hand you say Moyes has had to wheel & deal re player trading, hence our low net spend over the years - which is quite true, & his predecessor pretty well broke even on transfer dealings. On the other hand you seem to attribute our greatly increased debts to transfer costs. To my eyes it doesn't quite stack up. Whether, as some claim, Kenwright has done a"Yank" & transferred the cost of his share purchases onto the club, I don't know - but it does seem to me there's some tens of millions of pounds worth of debt that don't seem attributable to player purchase costs.
Sorry Karl but a lot of it is Kenwrights fault.
I fully accept that we were already going downhill fast when he took over, I alsobelieve he is`nt responsible for half the things he gets blamed for.
But he knew how bad things were and he knew he didnt have the funds do do anything about it.
PJ wanted out and somebody had to take over, nobody else wanted to know - nobody serious anyway - but given that he had nothing to offer Kenright should have either stayed the fuck out, or got the fuck out years ago, he did neither and the rapid decline has if anything speeded up.
I very much doubt if he could even give the club away in its current state
I fully accept that we were already going downhill fast when he took over, I alsobelieve he is`nt responsible for half the things he gets blamed for.
But he knew how bad things were and he knew he didnt have the funds do do anything about it.
PJ wanted out and somebody had to take over, nobody else wanted to know - nobody serious anyway - but given that he had nothing to offer Kenright should have either stayed the fuck out, or got the fuck out years ago, he did neither and the rapid decline has if anything speeded up.
I very much doubt if he could even give the club away in its current state
Karl, in buying the club with make believe money he transferred a debt of £25m or so onto it, that debt has never been repaid it has just risen, so since 1999 when he tookover not a chance of clearing the debt and as explained above the lack of business plan has meant all loans have increased the debt but not brought any long term returns, as daft as self cert mortgages or borrowing money you cant pay back, eventually it'll bite you on the backside, BK has been living a champagne lifestyle with the club on lemonade income, we are now at a point were Lidl and Netto look like Harvey Nics to us
I know we all probalby never expected anyone coming in before the deadline, but isen't it depressing watching the hrs tick away.
Gavin
I`ve read your posts`s so I know you believe Kenwright has deliberately thwarted or priced out any potentila buyer in the past.
I`d be interested to know; given that our situation now seems worse than we all imagined, do you think anybody would be interested in taking over now ? even if BK settles for a modest return
I`ve read your posts`s so I know you believe Kenwright has deliberately thwarted or priced out any potentila buyer in the past.
I`d be interested to know; given that our situation now seems worse than we all imagined, do you think anybody would be interested in taking over now ? even if BK settles for a modest return
Dave. Very true, but I suspect he has been hoping that Moyes would make 'the breakthrough' with this Team and not only win something, but generate more money and more interest from potential Buyers.
He hoped DK would do the same, but Thank God he never got that one through!
Dennis. Perhaps I was a bit ambiguous with my wording, but what I meant was: Buying in expensive players like Fellaini, Yakubu, Johnson etc not only costs the fee it costs massive wages too. We have been on this slippery slope for nearly 20 years where our income wasn't enough to buy the players or pay them their inflated wages, hence umpteen loans, re-mortgages, Bear Sterns etc, etc. Even prior to this Chairman, Peteer Johnson was forced to sell Duncan Fwerguson by the Bank because the numbers simply did not add up.
Where BK and all other Premier League Chairmen have fucked it right up is by spending all the Sky riches on paying players silly money and niot spending it on keeping ticket prices down and in our case failing to improve Goodison Park.
I takes a brave man to tell sleazy agents to do one and with that in mind if a few more Clubs had done what Blackpool have done the whole thing may have been different. Unfortunately, dirty Russian criminals and obscenely rich Arabs have blown everything sky high with their limitless interference and everyone else has followed suit in this League with one or two notable exceptions.
Telling Pienaar to take it or leave it was a small step in the right direction, good player though he was. It is a joke that Everton have an income in the top 25 in Europe and yet cannot afford to buy anybody. Player wages are the root of all evil.
Kenwright's crime is being a fan and wanting the best players and trying to forget how he is going to pay for them. A sober headred businessman would have had us living within our means a long time ago, although of course you would have all sorts of Teds coming on here and saying he was trousering the cash, had no honest bone in his body and all the other nonsense.
He hoped DK would do the same, but Thank God he never got that one through!
Dennis. Perhaps I was a bit ambiguous with my wording, but what I meant was: Buying in expensive players like Fellaini, Yakubu, Johnson etc not only costs the fee it costs massive wages too. We have been on this slippery slope for nearly 20 years where our income wasn't enough to buy the players or pay them their inflated wages, hence umpteen loans, re-mortgages, Bear Sterns etc, etc. Even prior to this Chairman, Peteer Johnson was forced to sell Duncan Fwerguson by the Bank because the numbers simply did not add up.
Where BK and all other Premier League Chairmen have fucked it right up is by spending all the Sky riches on paying players silly money and niot spending it on keeping ticket prices down and in our case failing to improve Goodison Park.
I takes a brave man to tell sleazy agents to do one and with that in mind if a few more Clubs had done what Blackpool have done the whole thing may have been different. Unfortunately, dirty Russian criminals and obscenely rich Arabs have blown everything sky high with their limitless interference and everyone else has followed suit in this League with one or two notable exceptions.
Telling Pienaar to take it or leave it was a small step in the right direction, good player though he was. It is a joke that Everton have an income in the top 25 in Europe and yet cannot afford to buy anybody. Player wages are the root of all evil.
Kenwright's crime is being a fan and wanting the best players and trying to forget how he is going to pay for them. A sober headred businessman would have had us living within our means a long time ago, although of course you would have all sorts of Teds coming on here and saying he was trousering the cash, had no honest bone in his body and all the other nonsense.
The worst part of deadline day is seeing the likes of Birmingham, Villa, West Ham and even Blackpool strengthening and us going backwards in terms of player numbers.
It'salso hard watching the RS being in a position to 'waste' so much money on a striker clearly worth half the fee they are paying.
It'salso hard watching the RS being in a position to 'waste' so much money on a striker clearly worth half the fee they are paying.
Yeah, way over the odds for Carroll Anthony, probalby around £20m would be a good investment I reckon. can't deny the lad is a real talent though, and is only 20 I think. Could become a top striker.
Daniel Sturridge just joined Bolton on loan.
What the fuck makes Bolton a more attractive option than Everton and what money have they got, with their half empty stadium, that we have not ?
Absolute joke, with Mr Moyes just gave one of the most depressing interviews on Sky regarding transfers that I have ever seen.
What the fuck makes Bolton a more attractive option than Everton and what money have they got, with their half empty stadium, that we have not ?
Absolute joke, with Mr Moyes just gave one of the most depressing interviews on Sky regarding transfers that I have ever seen.
Another Cup Final appearance and the players will be heroes, Moyes a genius and Kenwright our spiritual leader.
If we sell Phil Neville tonight will the last one to leave please turn off the bloody light!
Redknapp reckons they've put a bid in for Neville... nice of him to let us know...
Just came on Sky Sports, Harry says Neville deal back on?
Thing is Larry, we may be a more attractive option, but we have actually got to go in for the player in the first place, something we haven't done.
Sturridge would have been an interesting move. Ho hum
Says it all when our "high point" of the last day of the transfer windows is RETAINING Phil Neville!!
So then, the future for our club is to develop young players, pay them relatively low wages, sell the best ones for a profit and use the money gained from their sales to slowly build up the existing stadium, and so on and so forth, until eventually we can make more money from attendance figures to spend on better players...
And hope for the best.
And hope for the best.
I take post 46 all back...its official!
Everton have confirmed the signing of Greek teenager Apostolos Vellios. The 19-year-old striker has joined from Greek side Iraklis Thessaloniki for a nominal fee. (BBC)
Everton have confirmed the signing of Greek teenager Apostolos Vellios. The 19-year-old striker has joined from Greek side Iraklis Thessaloniki for a nominal fee. (BBC)
Dave Wilson, I believe having seen so many other clubs bought and sold that any club could potentially be bought and sold. The massive hit relates to the due diligence that a potential buyer would undertake and the debt and complete lack of business on offer. The only collateral the club has is player contracts and those have been reduced yet again with a lot of players on loan in proportion to the squad size. A prospective buyer now has the added burden of having to build a squad to add to the stadium and facilities and off field income streams but the longer BK remains the worse the situation will become.
Karl, nothing ambiguous in what you say ? you seem to think all the debt is down to transfers & now also you've added on salaries. I still don't see it. Yes, Johnson sold Ferguson off to recoup some of the previous outlay, but over the near 4 years he was manager, Smith's net spend was practically zero.
Moyes's spending has been mostly funded by sales & salaries seem to be around 60-70% of income. To my mind, that still begs the question ? where has all the other debt come from? What's the money been used for?
Ged, the current board have proved beyond any reasonable doubt that they are liars. AND have even admitted that there are interested parties i buying the club (but that could be a lie). The problem is the club is not for sale!!
Dennis.
I don't have any time for the current regime, although until something better is on offer we are stuck with it.
I think the Club is a shambles off the pitch in many ways and weak management over the years has brought us to a situation where far too much is paid out to players and no income generating initiatives such as a new stand / stands / stadium are viable. A large box like structure in the car park, obscuring the view of the stadium as you drive towards it, is what we have been forced to accept. And, you can bet that most of the money it will generate will go to the others who have funded it.
Kirkby was proof of the Board's ability to say whatever suited them at the time and as a result I would never trust them again.
However, the point I am making is that despite that BK and his colleagues cannot help the ridiculous wages that are now prevalent. That is not their fault and is what has prevented any of the Sky money going on the stadium, cheaper tickets and buying players. Yesterday's events just go to prove yet again that Abramovich and the Arabs mainly have fucked our game right up. Torres is probably on £200k a week minimum and what sort of contract do you think Andy Carroll will have extorted on the back of such an enormous fee? Minimum £100k a week.
I guess we need an Accountant to look through the latest accounts when they come out later this month, but £80m income minus £50M wages minus £21M 'operating costs' & £3M agents fees leaves about £4M so as ever it's gonna be sell before you buy. It's been that way since John Moores left and when the trend reversed for a while under Johnson and we brought in Kanchelskis and Ferguson for big fees we soon found ourselves having to sell them again as we were living beyond our means.
We have deluded ourselves for 20 years. We either need a miracle or a new Board with boundless ways of generating money backed up with the financial muscle to stand as guarantors against the borrowing needed. Neither seems likely sadly.
I don't have any time for the current regime, although until something better is on offer we are stuck with it.
I think the Club is a shambles off the pitch in many ways and weak management over the years has brought us to a situation where far too much is paid out to players and no income generating initiatives such as a new stand / stands / stadium are viable. A large box like structure in the car park, obscuring the view of the stadium as you drive towards it, is what we have been forced to accept. And, you can bet that most of the money it will generate will go to the others who have funded it.
Kirkby was proof of the Board's ability to say whatever suited them at the time and as a result I would never trust them again.
However, the point I am making is that despite that BK and his colleagues cannot help the ridiculous wages that are now prevalent. That is not their fault and is what has prevented any of the Sky money going on the stadium, cheaper tickets and buying players. Yesterday's events just go to prove yet again that Abramovich and the Arabs mainly have fucked our game right up. Torres is probably on £200k a week minimum and what sort of contract do you think Andy Carroll will have extorted on the back of such an enormous fee? Minimum £100k a week.
I guess we need an Accountant to look through the latest accounts when they come out later this month, but £80m income minus £50M wages minus £21M 'operating costs' & £3M agents fees leaves about £4M so as ever it's gonna be sell before you buy. It's been that way since John Moores left and when the trend reversed for a while under Johnson and we brought in Kanchelskis and Ferguson for big fees we soon found ourselves having to sell them again as we were living beyond our means.
We have deluded ourselves for 20 years. We either need a miracle or a new Board with boundless ways of generating money backed up with the financial muscle to stand as guarantors against the borrowing needed. Neither seems likely sadly.
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment to the MailBag, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and MailBag submissions across the site.
© ToffeeWeb
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
1 Posted 31/01/2011 at 14:11:11
Report abuse
Baring those transfers going through, I heard this morning after Spurs £38.5 mil bid for Ageuro was rejected by Athletico, Blue Bill put in a £38.6 mil bid but was sadly knocked back by the Spanish club!
"You would not believe" the other players he is trying to sign this transfer window!