The Mail Bag
Let's get an extra tier on the Park End
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I have just listened to the David Conn interview, and it struck a chord with me when he said we should make the most of what we've got. We could be waiting another 10 years for investment if Kenwright's search carries on the way it has been.
I remember when the Park End was built it was done so with the possibility of adding a tier, so I'm guessing that the costs for doing it can't be that high. If I pluck a figure of £2 million out of the air, then it would pay for itself within a year if it added 3,500 to the gate, all paying £30 for 20 games a season. Then again, if my auntie had bollocks she'd be my uncle...
We've got no other assets so we might as well make the most of the one that we've got...
Danny Broderick, Posted 07/02/2011 at 00:23:21
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I remember hearing stories at the time ? yes I know, dreaded rumours with no attribution to anyone in authority, but hey, it was a while back ? that there was a reason why it was single tier. It was done on the cheap and either a) the foundations weren't strong enough for a second tier or b) the steelwork was not strong enough to take a second tier.
Being anti-Kenwright I would like to blame him for the short-sighted cock up but I don't think he was in charge then!!
Being anti-Kenwright I would like to blame him for the short-sighted cock up but I don't think he was in charge then!!
Danny - if you're quoting £2 million for the Park End tier, I need an URGENT quote off you for an extension to my house please. Can you get back to me asap please?
I know other parties are footing the £9M for the work being done in the car park but won't that lock us in?
We can't afford to pull the whole Park End down and move the pitch towards Stanley Park at the moment, but won't this stop future potential owners ever being able to do it?
We can't afford to pull the whole Park End down and move the pitch towards Stanley Park at the moment, but won't this stop future potential owners ever being able to do it?
The Park End is a single-tier structure, and was not designed with expansion in mind.
Typically, even though The Football Trust picked up most of the tab, Everton elected to minimise cost so a design without expansion in mind was selected.
The decision to have commercial partners building a new structure for the medium-term behind it suggests it's not on the agenda either.
Typically, even though The Football Trust picked up most of the tab, Everton elected to minimise cost so a design without expansion in mind was selected.
The decision to have commercial partners building a new structure for the medium-term behind it suggests it's not on the agenda either.
Kenwright will never sell this club. His marketing of the club is pathetic. He can't even promote the club localy never mind overseas. They did have a good Australia tour as my buddy in Sydney said it went well down under but I don't know if the club has tried a bit more over this or just left it to Cahill being an Australian international to gain a bigger portfolio.
I did say Kenwright as he must have some input as to who the club put in charge of marketing and selling the brand all over the world. If it was a good brand, then we might get more looks our way instead of just walking past because the window display is shite.
First thing is, get new kits on sale before the summer holidays.
Second is, next time we have a cup final, try and sell t-shirts, scarfs banners or any thing as a momento and not rely on staff to point you to an independant bloke in the street who was making a fortune from the 2009 FA Cup Final.
There's two simple ways to make money.
I did say Kenwright as he must have some input as to who the club put in charge of marketing and selling the brand all over the world. If it was a good brand, then we might get more looks our way instead of just walking past because the window display is shite.
First thing is, get new kits on sale before the summer holidays.
Second is, next time we have a cup final, try and sell t-shirts, scarfs banners or any thing as a momento and not rely on staff to point you to an independant bloke in the street who was making a fortune from the 2009 FA Cup Final.
There's two simple ways to make money.
Anyone else find the idea of the Park End having a higher capacity than the Street End a bit wrong?
What the bloke (Conn?) was saying was a load of crap. On the one hand he was saying the biggest impediment to investment at Everton was the stadium. In the next breath he was saying make the most of what we have got... the stadium. Bollocks! Make the most of our only asset which is also an impediment! How the fuck do you do that and remain solvent? Or sane.
With a great deal of effort and money (which we don't have) Goodison could be made a little less of an impediment... but impediment it would remain.
The bloke clearly had no idea what he was on about and was waffling.
With a great deal of effort and money (which we don't have) Goodison could be made a little less of an impediment... but impediment it would remain.
The bloke clearly had no idea what he was on about and was waffling.
....and at one point he basically says that Goodison is a museum and not fit for the modern game and then suggests again we make the most of it.
It's a bit like saying, 'you've got six months to live... make the most of it'!
Total nonsense!
It's a bit like saying, 'you've got six months to live... make the most of it'!
Total nonsense!
If I remember rightly, Tom Hughes advised a cost of around £15 million to put another tier on the Park End and this could be done off season to minimise disruption of attendances and generate extra income.
We could then offer restricted view at a discount.
However, I am not sure if the proposed retail development will hinder this.
We could then offer restricted view at a discount.
However, I am not sure if the proposed retail development will hinder this.
Why couldnt the new building in the car park be constructed as part of the Park End to include an extra tier being built?
I don't remember Tom Hughes advocating an extra tier but I do recall a drawing of an extended Park End which would not have passed current health and safety regulations (it was like the north face of the Eiger). But it could possibly have been amended to suit.
I agree with Chris Matheson (above) I don't think the Park End was ever designed to be extended. It was just a cheap fix to improve the abhorrence that was the old Park End stand.
I agree with Chris Matheson (above) I don't think the Park End was ever designed to be extended. It was just a cheap fix to improve the abhorrence that was the old Park End stand.
There is little point in putting an extra tier on the Park End. We won't fill it. The reason for needing a new stadium isn't just to increase the attendance and therefore revenue in that way, it is needed to increase the revenue per spectator through boxes, lounges and having better commercial infrastructure within the stadium such as concourse TV etc etc.
It's about the pound spent per punter, not so much the number of punters in our case. Adding a second tier onto the Park End doesn't help that.
It's about the pound spent per punter, not so much the number of punters in our case. Adding a second tier onto the Park End doesn't help that.
James #13
You have to speculate to move the club forwards.
Sure, we might not fill it now but, if you add some reasonable corporate hospitality, it should pay for itself.
The danger of not investing in the stadium is if (and it's a big 'if') the fortunes turn around on the field, then the crowds will come. If you wait until that happens, then it's already too late to capitalise.
You have to speculate to move the club forwards.
Sure, we might not fill it now but, if you add some reasonable corporate hospitality, it should pay for itself.
The danger of not investing in the stadium is if (and it's a big 'if') the fortunes turn around on the field, then the crowds will come. If you wait until that happens, then it's already too late to capitalise.
Andy, putting an extra on Park End would put that stand up to 10,000. we might not sell out every week but there may be games that would sell out. Then people wouldn't have to sit in obstructed views.
We could get someone else to pay the £15M it would cost and then pay them back £50M on the never-never. Something similar to Finch Farm.
Seriously though, I think we should be redeveloping Goodison. I just don't think Bill is the man for the job. Do you?
Seriously though, I think we should be redeveloping Goodison. I just don't think Bill is the man for the job. Do you?
To be honest, and by honest I mean critical... Totally out of place, the Park End stand is a shoddy addition to the beautiful Goodison Park. About as aesthetically pleasing as the stands designed for Kikby.
What I'd love to see is a wrap-around of the main stand. You know, what with that billionaire Evertonian I'm hoping will buy the club.
What I'd love to see is a wrap-around of the main stand. You know, what with that billionaire Evertonian I'm hoping will buy the club.
Who is going to sit in this extra tier?
@Steve Beck, sounds great except we aren't paying anything towards the cost of the new development but I do think you may have had a good idea though.
Mike Hughes (3) ? I'll be round in the morning to give you a quote...
The £2 million figure might have been a tad optimistic ? I'll blame it on the night shift...
The £2 million figure might have been a tad optimistic ? I'll blame it on the night shift...
But if we simply added on to the existing structure, as I believe we can from when it was designed, then it wouldn't take mega bucks to do this ? certainly well under £10 million. And the figures would add up because it would be repaid certainly within a few years.
James (13) ? you say there is little point providing a new stand. Well, how many times must people call the ticket office, get a quote of £35 for an obstructed view, and decide not to bother going to the game?
I'm convinced the maths would add up for this if we do it ? the trouble is I have little faith in Kenwright to do it.
David #19 you sit in the gods in the Glwadys so why wouldn't those poor buggers with restricted views want a decent seat with a decent view? How about those sat in the Lower Bullens that might not be restricted but certainly don't provide value for money?
Andy (7) ? Personally, I'd like us to stay at Goodison after all these years of 'shall we go or not?' It's the cheaper option, it's more viable and that way we could start getting our house in order a bit while we wait for the pipe dream that a buyer has become.
So in answer to your point, I'd like to see the whole ground re-developed, but let's start with the Park End.
James @13. We would fill it because it wouldn't have restricted views. We only sell 90% of Goodison because about 10% of views are not worth the money.
I've always wondered why we don't buy and knock down the two end terraces on Dianna and Murial Street. Buy part of the school's playground and expand Bullens further out.
I've always wondered why we don't buy and knock down the two end terraces on Dianna and Murial Street. Buy part of the school's playground and expand Bullens further out.
It's a pity we can't extend it either upwards or outwards and get some big firm to put their name to it in a naming rights kinda thing. That should raise a quid or two. I would like to keep Gwladys Street as a stand name, but the other 3 can be called Tesco, Adidas and Butlins if it helps us out and keeps us where we are. What do you lot think?
I don't think the Park End was ever supposed to have an extra tier. But, if it were redeveloped, I think we would fill the extra seats. Many of our games have close-to-capacity crowds, and it is a proven and logical fact that, as long as you have the pool to draw from - and we have that pool - the bigger the ground's capacity, the bigger the attendance. On Saturday, for instance, we had 38,000, and that's very close to a full house. With more seats available, more people will try to watch a game.
How about sticking another tier on the Park End and making the Lower Bullens into boxes?
Gavin,
The point I am trying to make is that I thought the whole point of building the extra tier would be for the club to make more money. However, if it is a case of simply the existing Goodison regulars moving from one area of the ground to another, how is the club going to benefit financially?
The point I am trying to make is that I thought the whole point of building the extra tier would be for the club to make more money. However, if it is a case of simply the existing Goodison regulars moving from one area of the ground to another, how is the club going to benefit financially?
When the Park End was re-developed in 1994, the owners/chairmen (Peter Johnson I think) said 'When we are regularly getting 40,000 then we'll put an extra tier on'. There never was or has been any real intention to put a 2nd tier on. Lost opportunity ? just like the Kings Dock many years later.
Stewart Oakes (27) ? I was saying the exact same thing to my mate on Saturday. Why not build boxes where the Lower Bullens is as I reckon it only holds around 2000? We could put 20 boxes along there which would generate more money than the capacity 2000 seats at £35 a pop = £70,000 per game? Not too sure if it is feasible?
Steve Beck ? you are guilty of joined up thinking.
Stewart #26 ? I understood that was a plan at one time.
And, I was always lead to believe that the Park End redevelopment was made at one tier but with the foundations set for a second later tier as at the time it was too costly.
Better facilities, more corporate facilities paying premium rates seems to be what the club wants and subject to the short term cost being made available/afforded, it seems a good idea to me rather than moving.
A critic on here said the other day that the Main Stand was not even good enough when it was built; up in Top Balcony, it's improved... but, for a family day out at £100, I am not so sure.
Stewart #26 ? I understood that was a plan at one time.
And, I was always lead to believe that the Park End redevelopment was made at one tier but with the foundations set for a second later tier as at the time it was too costly.
Better facilities, more corporate facilities paying premium rates seems to be what the club wants and subject to the short term cost being made available/afforded, it seems a good idea to me rather than moving.
A critic on here said the other day that the Main Stand was not even good enough when it was built; up in Top Balcony, it's improved... but, for a family day out at £100, I am not so sure.
Where the fuck's the £75 million gone that was going to pay for that shit hole in Kirkby? Has it just magically fucking disappeared into thin air, or was that lying bastard Kenwright just fucking having us over again???
I've had it with these amateurish fuckers running this club. Get the fucking lot of them out now or there will be no fucking Everton left in 5 years.
More seats would be sold. I'm sure I'm not untypical but living away it costs me up to £100 to fly back to the city a weekend. This weekend, Blackpool, thought I would take my old man and girlfriend to the game. Bar the bad weather I can't justify another £100 on tickets with poor views and then transport, food, drink... and I have a decent income, so why would someone more local do the same if had kids?
Taken mates from home to the game and paid for shocking seats in the Lower Bullens. they may not sell out but look at tickets available the week before a game, all green restricted seats with little choice if you want to buy 2+ seats together.
A no brainer, would sell more and on certain games sell out or allow promotions for families to encourage a new generation of fan. Problem is we have not the leadership at the club to deliver.
David Thomas,
I disagree, I believe we could easily pull in 45 thousand if the views were half decent, Goodison only offers about 35,000 seats from which you can actually watch the game in without twisting your neck, the days when people were prepared to pay 30-odd quid to sit behind the post are gone. Give people nice facilities and a decent seat and an upper and lower Park End would sell out.
In the immediate, future the Lower Bullens could either be converted into corporate boxes, or sold to kids at a proper knock-down price.
I disagree, I believe we could easily pull in 45 thousand if the views were half decent, Goodison only offers about 35,000 seats from which you can actually watch the game in without twisting your neck, the days when people were prepared to pay 30-odd quid to sit behind the post are gone. Give people nice facilities and a decent seat and an upper and lower Park End would sell out.
In the immediate, future the Lower Bullens could either be converted into corporate boxes, or sold to kids at a proper knock-down price.
Everton is Goodison and Goodison is Everton.
We aren't going anywhere else.
So let's make as good a job of the place as we can.
What do we need?
As many unobstructed views as possible.
45k capacity...
I leave it up to the rest of you how it can be achieved.
We aren't going anywhere else.
So let's make as good a job of the place as we can.
What do we need?
As many unobstructed views as possible.
45k capacity...
I leave it up to the rest of you how it can be achieved.
David Thomas ? as Dave Wilson has said and others, we can't sell a good number of restricted views, the ones I mentioned are poor value for money but the Park End (and I know as I've got a season ticket there) is a more expensive seat than those stands and QED earn more money but giving the fans a better seat and matchday experience.
Goodison Park has options for refurb/upgrade but never had a Chairman with the will or willing to do so. If you or anyone else doubting the quality of a Leitch stadium get yourself to Glasgow and take a look at Ibrox, it can be done but needs money and willing custodians, they have the named bricks there too, just a plastercast face on a brick but extremely popular and brought income to the club.
Goodison Park has options for refurb/upgrade but never had a Chairman with the will or willing to do so. If you or anyone else doubting the quality of a Leitch stadium get yourself to Glasgow and take a look at Ibrox, it can be done but needs money and willing custodians, they have the named bricks there too, just a plastercast face on a brick but extremely popular and brought income to the club.
It reminds me of the lines in the baseball film.. "If you build it they will come"
If you don't they won't..
If you don't they won't..
Clubs like Newcastle and Villa have totally overhauled their grounds in the last 20 years despite being in cramped, boxed in locations.
Others like Spurs, West Ham and Man Utd have substantially improved what they had.
It is a total disgrace that all Everton have really done is that Meccano Park End at a cost of £2.1M (with £1.3M of that paid for by the Football Trust) and that was 17 years ago.
It was supposed to be a 10,000 seat two-tier stand (which would have given us a 44,000 capacity) and in April 1991 a picture of the intended structure linking with the Bullens Road and sweeping round was published in the Chelsea programme.
But our shortsighted Board (containing both Bill Kenwright and Sir Phillip Carter) were guilty of looking at 1993 crowds (only 13,500 at Kendall Mk 2's final match) and completely underestimating the Premier League era and sanctioned a functional and far too small structure totally out of keeping with the rest of Goodison, as Nick Entwhistle rightly says.
We could say it's never too late to start and of course it isn't, it's just going to cost a massive amount more now as construction costs, especially steel and labour, have shot up since the 90s.
I agree with David Conn. Make Goodison great again. It won't happen under BK though, sadly. Not enough cash and not enough will to do it.
Others like Spurs, West Ham and Man Utd have substantially improved what they had.
It is a total disgrace that all Everton have really done is that Meccano Park End at a cost of £2.1M (with £1.3M of that paid for by the Football Trust) and that was 17 years ago.
It was supposed to be a 10,000 seat two-tier stand (which would have given us a 44,000 capacity) and in April 1991 a picture of the intended structure linking with the Bullens Road and sweeping round was published in the Chelsea programme.
But our shortsighted Board (containing both Bill Kenwright and Sir Phillip Carter) were guilty of looking at 1993 crowds (only 13,500 at Kendall Mk 2's final match) and completely underestimating the Premier League era and sanctioned a functional and far too small structure totally out of keeping with the rest of Goodison, as Nick Entwhistle rightly says.
We could say it's never too late to start and of course it isn't, it's just going to cost a massive amount more now as construction costs, especially steel and labour, have shot up since the 90s.
I agree with David Conn. Make Goodison great again. It won't happen under BK though, sadly. Not enough cash and not enough will to do it.
Mike Hughes, I know Danny personally and I can speak from bitter experience that he has a habit of under-estimating the value of things... as I found out when I sold him a spare semi-final ticket I had in 2009!
David (#26) mentions the crowd on Saturday, which I was quite surprised to see exceeding 38,000 ? just when we'd been informed that crowds were down to at best 34,000 and the faithful were staying away in their droves as protest to (a) bad football (b) bad management (c) bad Chairman (d) all of the above. Pouring rain too....
Yet barely 32,000 v Chelsea. Yea, that was live on TV... and an extra £35... is that the difference? Hopefully somebody can explain? Perhaps those who went to the Blackpool game but not the Chelsea game?
Yet barely 32,000 v Chelsea. Yea, that was live on TV... and an extra £35... is that the difference? Hopefully somebody can explain? Perhaps those who went to the Blackpool game but not the Chelsea game?
I was informed that, in the summer PJ took over, he was fuming at our board for not building the second tier stand as was agreed before he took over, rumour has it he was close to pulling out of joining us.
Not the first time our board members have bolloxed things up is it?, Bobby Robson, Clough and Nigel Martyn springs to mind.
Inside the ground we don't even have cheese slices for the burgers at 1:15pm so no way can we put an extra tier on the Park End.
Let's give Bill a bit of credit. He painted the perimeter of the pitch blue, put up some rectangular flags outside the ground and gave us a marketing tent in the car park. Nothing but the best is good enough.
The Park End is indeed designed to accept a second tier as confirmed by a colleague who worked for the construction company who built it, Wimpey.
The whole point most people seem to miss about spending money increasing Goodison is this... Every pound you or I spend outside GP is a pound the club want to capture, so the £5 parking, Everton want, the £30 ale in the local boozer the club want, the £3 chippy dinner the club want, even the bus fares and bloody betting money! Every penny spent outside the ground is money the club is losing out on and could have if they moved to an out of town stadium like Bolton's, it's as simple as that.
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1 Posted 07/02/2011 at 14:45:15
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