The Mail Bag
A Liverpool Apology?
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I see Dogleash is in the papers today saying how the RS deserved to be punished for the Heysel Tragedy. This in itself is quite an admission as I've not heard much along these lines before from the Red camp. However, he then goes on to say that Everton were punished too "and they were innocent". Is this the nearest we will ever get to an apology from that lot?
I have always felt that the 5-year ban was the start of the impoverishment of our Club and a root cause of the crap we now find ourselves in. They had the financial backing to get through their six years out of Europe, we did not. However, if we had been able to compete regularly at that level (which was a fair bet at that time) the last 15 years could have looked very different.
Steve Guy, Posted 17/02/2011 at 13:35:12
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Wasn´t that exactly where we were 10 years ago?
Slightly off track but on the same vein as one rule for one etc, didn't we have to play Spurs in the Carling Cup last season on a Tuesday night after playing on the previous Sunday, so how come we couldn't have played Chelsea in mid-week, or are the "big clubs" exempt for playing two games in three days?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/feb/17/kenny-dalglish-liverpool-sparta-prague
I respect his message here. Succinctly put. He is right to focus on the loss of life as the primary issue.
It's not exactly an apology but then as a player / manager back then, I am not sure it was his responsibility to apologise for the behaviour of the fans.
I do think a formal acknowledgement by the RS of the impact of Heysel / the Heysel ban on Everton, coupled with a restoration of mutual respect between the clubs (and less of the "small club" talk) would go a long way to restoring some of the pre-1985 atmosphere and mutual success.
It also would, ironically, make Everton MORE attractive to investors... ahem, buyers... because we would be seen as being part of the Merseyside heritage of football.
Bottom line is that, when Everton and the RS are arguing like spoiled children, no-one gets any ice-cream... if we work together with Liverpool to restore some civility into the relationship, then that has to cascade to the fans and ultimately, I think, makes Merseyside football more interesting, potentially more attractive financially, and perhaps makes both of us more successful in the long run. Not taking a position here on a shared stadium, but clearly it would be more tenable in such an environment.
I think it was as much the journalist took the tack of "poor Kenny missed out on Europe" and KD (rightly) said that others lost much more. Much, much more, to varying degrees.
Even Everton's lost opportunity was insignificant compared to the tragic loss of life.
Compared to loss of life nothing in football compares.
Thatcher is the daughter of a shopkeeper but from day one had ideas above her station about herself and a hatred of the working classes, ideas she repeatedly enforced whilst she cosied up to the bourgeoisie... the miner's strike being the one which I hate to this day, the most when she ordered horse-mounted police to charge unarmed miners striking to feed their families. Football was still predominantly seen as a working class sport and another easy target.
Kenny didn't choose to talk about it. He was asked about it.
What else could he have said?
They left the apology to the RS local offical newspaper (The Echo).
As much as I hate it, the man is a credit to the game and Merseyside and (slate me as much as you like) so is Carragher.
I hate that they have any affiliation to them though.
With regards to the suffering Everton encountered then lets not drop the woe is me crap. At the time of the ban there was one club primed to deal with it because they were reigning champions and had the best squad of players.
Every other club was playing catch up but, due to mis-management from top to bottom over the next few years, EVERTON FOOTBALL CLUB FUCKED IT UP. Not liverpool, not Maggie Thatcher, not UEFA. Everton.
The grace he also spoke with after the Chelsea game was also impressive. He just hates Everton. I hate him for that and that he turned into a red but credit where credits due eh?
Thatcher was also the greatest thing that ever happened to the UK working classes having overseen the largest transfer of wealth to us ever in the form of council house sales and privatisation shares. She was a true Blue of the highest order.
I just felt that there was a lack of honestly or objectivity with his derby comments, they certainly won't have helped relations on what can be a dangerous derby day atmosphere, but I'm sure it helped him shift a few more books.
By the way, I only found out recently that, during the 94-95 season, we spent more money than any other club in the Prem league. Doesn't that sound like a different world compared to now? Oh how I miss the 90's!!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article381989.ece
Barcelona fans threw a pigs head at Louis Figo on the pitch?
Leeds fans being stabbed in Turkey?
Yet neither of these and many worse didn't lead to a European wide ban, the bans of English teams was imposed from this country, ask why Scottish teams didn't face the ban?
Still garbage, I fucking doubt it. Thatcher always was and always will be a fucking pariah of the highest order single handedly destroying heavy industry and manufacturing and starting the "fuck you, I'm alright jack" society of self self self, the repercussions of which are still with us today ? bankers screwing bonuses with finance which has impacted the global economy, think you need to go and clean your moat.
Will be watching the game tonight to hopefully see an RS loss. Avoiding the karaoke though.
By the way, wonder if they'll wait for Thatcher to kick the bucket before releasing the film (just so it has a happy ending).
Any apology should start and stop with the victims families, bringing football into it just demeans it for me. It's not important.
I cannot stand the following RS:-
John Barnes, Jason McAteer, Margaret Thatcher, Robbie Fowler, Fred and Rose West, Gary Glitter, Jimmy "Shithouse" Case, Cilla "Placky Scouser" Black, that woman who lobbed the cat into a bin, Jamie Redknapp, Nick "Judas" Barmby, Ricky "Gobshite" Thomlinson, that brown-nosing twat who wrote Brookside, Ringo "No Talent" Starr, Rick Parry, Rafael Beneathus, Houllier, those paedophile nursery workers, Jimmy "Shithouse" case etc etc.
Come the great day they'll all be lined up against the wall.
Hibbert and Osman.
It also leaves a bad taste in the mouth to read the posts of people who have leapt onto their political soap-box!
However, what really sticks in the throat with the shite fans is the way they have tried to absolve themselves of any of the blame what-so-ever for that night and erased it from their history. I have many an arguement with them when they say it was "west Ham fans" or "the National Front"
They obsess about "we won it 5 times" when they should still be hanging their heads in shame for what happened that night. They don't deserve the opportunity to have ever been allowed to compete in Europe again and they should have been given a life time ban and not merely a year more than other English clubs. People talk about it being the straw that broke the camel's back with English clubs, yet 2 weeks earlier in Rotterdam we wona European trophy in a game which was watched without riot and incident.
That is what makes me sick about the shitty, badge wearing, scarf waving, false and sanctimonious "famous Kop"
It's a big step forward for someone associated with the RS to even acknowledge Heysel's big impact on Everton.
However, I still can't forgive the cunt that goal at Chelsea that robbed us of the Championship in 1985-86!
Chris Leyland, very well put.
Couldn't agree more. When the ban was announced, it was a level playing field for all English clubs. We were all banned, and we were in the best position to deal with it as Champions. The fact we have dwindled ever since is down to Everton FC, no-one else. We won the league in 87, was that down to Heysel as well? We didn't buy good enough players and have been mis-managed financially ever since. That is the truth. Apology my arse...
Everton certainly lost out, but we are where we are, primarily due to how the club has been run at Board level ? & I don't just mean the current incumbents, despite their many failings.
Well said.
How do you know you'd have grown up following a very different team? We'd have still had to replace the 85 team. Who's to say we'd have done it any better if we'd been in Europe?
Oh yeah..."We don't care what the Red Side (also known as "Shite") say, What the heck (also known as "fuck") do we care..."
I reminisce how Americans would say they knew where they were when they heard Kennedy had been shot... I remember where I was when Uefa decided to bar European Cup favourites Everton from the European Cup and the Super Cup against Juve.
I was 15. And had finally seen an Everton team that was better than Liverpool, and being compared to Barca and Juve at the the time, and to the Liverpool of the 70s.
We were robbed of our time in the sun, and perhaps becoming a global brand. We've every right to be bitter, and it's about time some contrition was shown from the other side. It's extremely overdue.
And yes, more serious grievances were present in Italy. Football was wounded, but Everton unfairly so.
Thatcher was also the greatest thing that ever happened to the UK working classes having overseen the largest transfer of wealth to us ever in the form of council house sales and privatisation shares. She was a true Blue of the highest order.
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I won't beat about the bush.
Fuck off!
Thatcher built not one of those council houses, and since they were sold off (actually bloody given away), today the working classes have no council house and no affordable homes to buy.
Oh, and real wages are lower, and but for five or ten years we've had mass unemployment since she became PM.
You talk outa your arse, lad.
You guys really need to learn your history. Thatcher rescued the UK from Labour induced IMF rescued disaster and she never destroyed any industry. All she did was stopped the taxpayer subsidising it and the inefficient mess collapsed all by itself. Pit closures had already started and were at a higher rate under the disaster of the previous Labour government.
Maggie, Maggie, Maggie. A true Blue British hero, champion of the working classes and the greatest peace time politician we have ever seen.
You need to learn the facts mate.
Unemployment over 3million
Whole communitues trapped in a cycle of joblessness
Record numbers of house repossessions
Sky high interest rates
Negative equity
Selling us shares in utility companies we already owned
Having a war to regain popularity and win an election
Killing community and society by creating a culture of selfishness and greed.
Oh and the poll tax, quite possibly the most unfair.and regressive tax ever.
And she knew fuck all about football too and wanted to introduce a membership card scheme like they had at Luton.
So stop with 'greatest peacetime politician' shite as she was a horrible, horrible woman who would be right at home on the Kop.
Too many reds in BBC sport.
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It seems to me the Beeb is a cabal of Kopites and Spurs fans.
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Martin, I need to learn my history? Here goes:
The IMF money in 1976 was never used, and was paid back after one year (the Fact of IMF loan just as big a fault of Heath's 1970-74 government as Wilson's).
The postwar consensus stopped working, and then... The most famous billboard ad in political history was one that helped Thatcher get elected: "Labour isn't working", with a picture of a dole queue: it was 1979.
Thatcher then had 11 years in power in which unemployment tripled and stayed massively above that FOR THE WHOLE OF HER TIME IN OFFICE.
The legacy of Thatcher is: deregulation, privatisation, greed and a new class ? the underclass. That has produced the largest financial breakdown since just after the First World War. It matters little who was in power at the time in the UK. It was international and based on Thatcherism.
Greed is our new god, and failing bankers get away with grand theft because of the Thatcherite philosophy governing Britain for 30 years.
The 70s showed excessive power in the unions. But her war on them has led to falling real wages for 30 years. Lack of income has been the reason (apart from greed) for record levels of personal debt.
You see, companies want to pay staff as little as possible, but need people to still buy their stuff. A conundrum Thatcher solved: destroy the unions and enter the credit card, and deregulated finance.
We are still living with the consequences, whether mass unemployment or enforced debt. (To any one unaware; govt debt in the UK is approx 59-60% of GDP ? Less than in Italy, France, Germany and especially Japan. But personal debt is a whopper. It is over 100% of GDP.
Yup personal debt is bigger than the economy. All thanks to falling wages, and lack of affordable housing following from the double whammy: no social housing left, and deregulated finance creating electronic money that did not really exist to push up asset prices (especially housing). Debt, debt, debt or homelessness.
I know my history.
The most famous billboard ad in political history was one that helped Thatcher get elected: "Labour isn't working", with a picture of a dole queue: it was 1979. (ADD here: unemployment was 1.2 million at the time...)
Thatcher then had 11 years in power in which unemployment tripled and stayed massively above that FOR THE WHOLE OF HER TIME IN OFFICE (despite changing the method of counting unemployment to make it seem lower).
I think Thatcher's been the most important politician since Churchill in terms of leaving her mark on history. I personally consider it a black mark, but can't deny that she did force a sea-change in the country.
And now, they're back.... a worrying time for parents in the north.
She was a person of the time, exactly what was needed and the only problem was that she didn't go far enough with her reforms. She shouldn't have stopped at Union baron power but carried on through the police, parliament and the judiciary.
As well as being a lifelong Evertonian I'm a Blue politically and have no regrets over that. Only conservatism can give true caring socialism.
Come on you Blues, Everton on Saturday and the conservatives next election with a big majority and a new leader. :-)
True to form with "ifs, buts and maybes", we could have then not won the league in 87, but I firmly believe it would have kept us at the higher echelons of European football ? thus when Sky came along, we would have been right up there with the likes of Man Utd.
It may seem like I am blabbering on but that's my opinion. However, facts are facts and there is no doubt we were unfairly punished for what happened at Heysel. And, regardless of whether the RS caused it, the ground was a show etc etc... you cannot escape the fact that them twats had a part to play in us missing out properly in the big time.
I lie in hope we get our time again and them fuckers get their come-uppance.
The current PM is only there by default having cosied up to another party who couldn't win power but are sycophantic and naive enough to believe they have a say in how the country will be run hence the current vote on how votes are to be counted.
Your party of choice is currently enforcing changes to Local Councils to drop Lollipop men and women who cost approximately £3000 per year yet the same councils refuse point blank to consider their leaders on over £200k a year taking a small drop in salary which would pay for several of these staff. Your "fuck you" society instantly creating a question, is the head of a council worth more than the life of a child? One answer they have suggested is that parents and local companies fund them... erm, how about"Yes, ok, but drop our increasing taxes then, as that's what they are supposed to pay for".
Thatcherism has created a global environment of shafting everyone for the sake of personal gain, Cameron's laughable Big Society a clear and present lets get you to do the work you pay for through taxes for nothing... ker-ching! ? yet not one single reform of any significance in the banking arena.
The poll tax was or should have been one of the fairest taxes ever. If you are working, why shouldn't you contribute to the public purse; you enjoy council services, why shouldn't you pay for them?
As for council chiefs taking a pay cut, I'm right with you there, Gavin and remember ? many of them are Labour!
I hate bankers bonuses as much as the next man but console myself with the thought that the recipients pay most of it back in super tax ? that's fair surely?
Back to footy. We were robbed in 1975 and at long last Dalglish has admitted as much. We can't alter things. Why can't we let it rest at that and grow up?
Bankers don't pay that tax at all. From this point on, listen to the wording used every time that arguement is trotted out to justify the bonuses. They say things like... 'the bankers are liable' or 'their taxable income is'. The people who receive these massive bonuses are experts in finance and would be derided by everyone around them and dropped by their companies if they didn't know ways out of paying this imaginary tax.
But don't believe me, read CITYBOY, it was written by a former financial expert. It blows the whistle on this myth. What surprises me is that people believe this myth, do you really think that these people, collectively, would give up the one thing they value the most?
Martin, are you out of your fucking tree? I'll tell you a little thing about that mad bitch... while the world was rejoicing over the fall of the Berlin wall and the reunification of Germany, her and Mitterand were working on Gorby to keep Germany split. Ask yourself this question, How do you think the Russians would have done that? That's right, they would have sent in the tanks to the cold-war tinderbox. Thankfully Gorby ignored her and, I'd like to think, saw her for what she is... Britian's Stalin.
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1 Posted 17/02/2011 at 15:04:13
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