The Mail Bag
The curious case of Jack Rodwell
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I know I am going to get shot down in flames for this one but I believe we have a real gem in Jack Rodwell. The problem is he is being coached out of his natural ability.
He is a central defender that happens to play in midfield for 'his development'. I personally believe his best position is as a box-to-box midfielder who can affect both ends of the pitch. The games he has been most effective in have allowed him this freedom.
However, he is constantly asked to hold & protect and this has led to him developing an annoying habit of passing sideways (ala Vinny Sideways of old).
Come on Davey.... allow him the freedom to flourish without fear of retribution. Only then will the real Jack Rodwell stand up!
Shaun Laycock, Posted 26/05/2011 at 20:45:26
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Personally i think he is over hyped by the media and some of our fans buy into to that hype. Having seen him fail in most games this season; I would sell him to the highest bidder.
We have better centre mids at the club and we can't afford to have him on the bench if we could be getting £15million adnd above for him.
I also don't think he will ever be a good midfielder as his passing makes Didi Hamann look like Paul Scholes. In the future he will probably make it as a centre half.
No one can tell me there isnt a top player in there.
I feel like maybe too much pressure has been put on him, maybe they expect him to mature too quickly. He needs to go back to being an excited kid waiting for an opportunity, as opposed to this future legend and leader that seems to be expected of him.
I understand those who are calling for him to be sold to the highest bidder, based on his performance this season. However I honestly believe that if we flog him to manure, for example, we will live to regret it.
I believe Rodwell will end up being the valuable player that he is touted as being, I just wonder if there is too much pressure put on him at everton, or his talent is somehow being squashed out of him.
Allegedly he was not happy about his lack fo games this season, but when he finally did get a run he was one of our worst performers.
I think he will turn out a very good player but have seen nothing to suggest he will be in the Rooney class and for that he should be sold if we have to sell anyone. Fellaini is not many years older and is twice the player.
Sounds like a familiar story, especially for attack minded players at Everton.
Strikers get ruined at Everton ? Beattie, Johnson, Yakubu.
Wingers don't get a chance ? van der Meyde, Gueye
Creative central midfielders get told to defend ? Fernandes, Arteta, Osman, Rodwell
Something tells me our manager doesn't like individual creative ability.
To be honest, Neville and Heitinga have played better at defensive midfield than either of them have this season in my opinion. Rodwell is younger, a lot faster (see him rip Ashley Cole at the weekend down the flank) and has a better shot (even though we don't see enough of it).
I think he will end up as a centre-back hopefully in the Rio Ferdinand mould. Undoubtedly Ferguson will snap him up and play him in his proper position with Smalling at the back in a lot of big games and have the best English centre-back pairing of the next decade.
But right now he is a very average, sideways passing, midfielder who Everton will not miss in the slightest.
Beattie and Johnson never were Premier League strikers ? they were gambles. Yakubu got injured and AvdM was a wastrel. None of them have left Everton and given the slightest credence to your claim
Few midfield players in the Prem defend less than Ossie and Arteta and Gueye and Rodwell are still kids... there hasn't even been time to coach anything out of them.
Rodwell has all the skills, but at the moment he lacks the drive and the aggression; that's gonna have to come from within... a coach cant put it there.
I hope we can hang on to him for next season and he gets a decent run of games in the side. I've still got high hopes for him. At his current stage of development I believe he is a better player when given a little freedom to go forward. I'm sure that will change over time.
Dave Wilson ? Well said.
Both had scored around the 20 goal mark in the Prem; players have gone for meagbucks for achieving less than that.
It was an embarrassment watching Johnson chase hoof after hoof with Moyes urging him on. I felt genuinely sorry for him as he was obviously useful used in other ways.
Injuries and form may have hampered both since they left, but both were good goalscorers in their day.
I don't see how Rodwell is going to make it to the very top without a serious change in attitude.
He is far too willing to allow opponents to have time and space in dangerous areas and far too willing to choose the easy ball even when others are available. Hopefully he may just be a bit overawed in his first full season as a starter and he will grow next year but, as it stands, I haven't seen enough to refuse bids of over £12m.
That's based on the players that could get us and the cover we have for all the positions he could play.
I have a feeling that he will one day make an excellent right back. He has all the attributes to play the game in a similar way to Leighton Baines. If he finds a bit of defensive instinct, he could excel there.
Unfortunately neither of them had "their day" at Goodison often enough. Whether that was completely due to Moyes's hoofball tactics is open for debate but neither of them, Johnson or Beattie, have exactly set the world of football on fire since they left. And the Yak is doing his best to live up to his reputation of trying hard for a season and then resting on his fat, 40-year-old arse.
That said, you know SAF would turn him into a great player... which I think lends credence to the OT: Moyes can't coach him into being a great player.
Let him go... start a bidding war in Manchester... just take all the cash this time and not some stupid "we'll give ya £10m now and the rest when we can be bothered".
I also try to judge and imagine how a current player would fit in with past Everton teams ? Rodwell alongside Reid and Bracewell, for example.
£15m plus a decent player would do for me!
Last season, until that kopite grog got him, he was bordering on being the most in-form midfielder in the country over 20 or so games.
Rodwell on the other hand I could count these games of flashes of brilliance on one hand... and only once this season, at home to mighty Huddersfield, did he show that brilliance to me.
Once they get the big contract they think they've made it, they do their normal training then go and have a game of golf. Tony Hibbert still can't kick with his left foot. Even Rooney hasn't improved technically since leaving Everton.
Poor mentality.
He is, in his own mind, a central defender so naturally defensive. Here's something to chew on, maybe the coaching staff are trying to coach the defensive side out of him and push him on, however, as usual it's Moyes's fault because he hates skilfull players ? one of the most ridiculous comments in this post. But even that daft quote is soundly beaten by "Wingers don't get a chance ? Van der Meyde" ? first coffee spat at the monitor moment today, love it!
Speaking of selling, I have just jotted down my expected departures and estimated their values: Yobo £4m (was apparently meant to be £6m but the Turkish club are haggling so expect a reduction); Bily £7m; Vaugan £1.5m; Mucha £0.5m; Yak £2m; add to that Rodwell at my guess of £18m ? that equals total sales of £33m. Maybe we could enter the Scott Parker race and actually go for a decent centre forward and stop being linked with the likes of Ba and Disc Jockey Campbell.
From When he first played in the championship for Birmingham to the day he signed for Everton (1997-2006) Andy Johnson had scored 21 Prem goals... all in one season and half of them were penalties. By his own admission, the highlight of his carreer was his time at Everton.
James Beattie had scored a total of 68 goals (1996-2005) before he came to us ? 7 a season ? a lot of those were penalties too. He then found his level in the Championship with Sheff Utd, but has since found even the SPL to much, failing to score in seven outings.
Davey Moyes gambled on both on the back of the only decent seasons they have ever had; the gamble didn't come off.
So PLEASE! ? let's stop trying to rewrite history. Moyes may have been wrong to take a gamble on these glorified penalty takers, but they were never and have never been Premier League strikers.
I couldn't be bothered to go through each season saying sub here, only started this many here, was injured there.
BOTH PLAYERS have had seasons of scoring around twenty goals in the top division, both had something to offer.
Beattie scored for fun as he became a regualr at southampton and picked up from there for Sheff Utd, came back up to the prem and kept Stoke up. He then fell out with Pulis and as you rightly say has sloshed about since as age has caught up with him.
Johnson has struglled with injuries since he left, not much else to say about him, very unlucky.
I don't think it's me trying to re-write history.
Are you saying that while we had either player the team was set up to play to their strengths?
Both were and one still is a player with the quality to play Premier League football. Neither will do well playing up front on their own chasing hoofs.
Everton have relative strength in the centre-half positions and without experience, which is undoubtedly needed in this position, Rodwell, I would suggest, continues to develop.
I would guess that Alex Ferguson is watching Rodwell closely, I suspect that he may view Jack as an ideal candidate / partner for Chris Smalling. Once Ferdinand and Vidic lose their edge, a new partnership will be introduced and probably play together for 6-7 years plus.
I would guess that a centre half does not come into their own until 23/24 and peak at around 28-30; in that sense, Rodwell has time on his side and still has a way to go in his development.
Both those players were at best average Premier League strikers who maybe had a few good seasons between them. The theory that Moyes 'ruins' strikers I'm afraid has little credence. Yes he favours 4-5-1 and that must be known to those strikers before they come but that is all there is to it.
As for Rodwell... I've not seen it enough but am loathe to lose a player who may well become an England captain one day. On the other hand if we turn down £20+m and he then goes the way of Stephen Schumacher, we will feel very stupid. On balance, if we can get £15m plus a few decent young players (Welbeck and Macheda maybe) then we are doing Ok.
They both had A season ? not seasonS ? when they scraped over 20 goals, neither would have gotten anywhere near that without penalties.
If you take those single seasons out. AJ has got less than 20 Prem goals in his entire career and Beattie doesn't come out much better ? averaging 5 a season.
The fact is, without penalties, they wouldn't have even been one-season wonders. Moyes couldn't play to their strengths because the refs didn't award us enough spot kicks.
Take a proper look at their careers and please ditch this silly Moyes "fucked them up" argument.
Many Evertonians are still wondering how Moyes ever made a handsome profit on AJ. Particularly seeing as he can't get a game for Fulham a lot of the time.
Plus - he is a blue and understands the club a lot more than Fellaini.
If I had to sell one it would be Felli because he is right at the top of his value. We could get £25m for him at the moment, but if we sold Rodwell we would get about £15m tops. In two years time Fellaini wil be wroth £25m, and Rodwell will be worth £30m+
Get used to it, this is modern-day EFC.
Last season and the first half of this season, Fellaini bossed the centre of midfield in so many games and I have yet to see Rodwell do this once.
2) Start a bidding war in Manchester
3) Tell the highest bidder to go fuck themself!!
NSNO
I'd be more than happy for us to find ourselves a striker who "scraped" us 20 next season!
In most team's strikers take pens.
Henry, Van Nistelrooy and Shearer wouldn't have scored nowhere near the amount of goals through thier careers without them. The fact is they still need putting in and both players did.
IMO Johnson made most of the pens himself through persistence and hard work.
I'll ask you again, Are you saying that we played to either players' strengths while they were with us?
I'm not sure they give pens for small strikers getting outmuscled in the air 40 yards from goal.
I think strikers should take penalties and these two were pretty good at it, in the season the got over 20 they scored over 20 between them... but that cements my point. Without penalties, their records were pathetic so how could Moyes fuck up a pair of penalty takers?
And if you can't tell the difference between players like Van Nistelroy, Shearer, Henry and these two, or you didn't see all those countless one-on-ones when AJ hit it straight at the keeper, it's really no wonder you think the way you do.
And to answer your question: At this level, I don't believe either player had any particular strengths to play to; that's why their careers fell off a cliff when they left.
Beckford came from two divisions lower, he has not played anywhere near the games these two have, yet he has still scored more goals in open play than both of them put together managed... that is a good guage of their level.
Moyes didn't fuck them up, there wasn't anything to fuck up, all he did was give them the biggest opportunities of their lives... it's ridiculous to blame him because they were clearly not good enough.
Serious error of judgment there, then... for every Cahill a Krøldrup?
The problem occurred when we managed to get a 20 goal a season player he reverted to type and did fuck all after the good season. Whereas we got decent money for Meattie and AJ, we will take a hit with the Fat Yak. (Even the Championship crowds were calling him a fat bastard and they have some heifers in that league.)
Ditto.
"Serious error of judgement then" ?
So, taking a punt on what appeared to be potential whilst making a profit in the process now constitutes a "serious" error of judgement?
Sorry, but when I look at Stephen's points, then look at yours . .the words "do", "damned" and "don't" spring to mind.
Rodwell will be a great in the right blend of midfield players. We have not had a truly balanced midfield since Landon went back to The States, neither have we had the same zip down the left since Pienaar went to Spurs. Pienaar is just as good as he was but has not found a Baines on the same wavelength.
Although Arteta is a gifted and committed player, I don't think he links up particularly well with anybody. I think he is a very individual player who will very rarely lay off a pass without several touches and a good look around. I think Jack Rodwell is struggling because our midfield does not currently have the correct mix.
http://performance.fourfourtwo.com/technique/jack-rodwell-how-to-play-box-to-box
Apparently jack is conserving energy not being lazy. Also not making forward runs in the first half to confuse his opposite number in the second half when he eventually does... hmmmm. I say go out all guns blazing, Jack. If you're knackered, that's what subs are for.
Fellaini has many qualities but he'll never be in the very top bracket of defensive midfielders mainly because he hasn't got any pace, can't hit a long pass, and hasn't got a long shot. Just because my opinion of him isn't as high as some people's doesn't mean I should be accused of 'not looking' just because I don't think he's as good as Roy Keane. That's like me over-exaggerating the other way and comparing him to Jagielka in centre-mid then berating anyone who didn't agree with the absurd comparison.
I used those players to highlight how taking penalties makes every striker's record look much better, not as comparable ability, as you already know.
I certainly don't remember "countless one-on-ones" for AJ. I remember a striker who had to work his nuts off for every single chance that came his way.
I also remember thinking how few gilt-edged chances that particular side created for our strikers at that time. One thought that sticks out for me about AJ was the amount of times in any given match where he would jump for a high ball with a centre back twice his size.
I'm not saying either of the players were talking about were world beaters, I am saying that neither were helped by the way the side played at that point. Moyes is responsible for the way the side plays.
For me, this year's tournament is key. Let's see what he can do when playing against the same age group. But, regardless of that, we know we're going to have to sell to buy this Summer.
From the first game at Blackburn to Villa and so on we passed everyone to death but would end up getting hit with a sucker punch in the end. I don't know what games you where watching to blame Fellaini for this.
Arteta's form has been bad all season yet results have improved in the second half and why is that? Perhaps because both Arteta and Fellaini, two of the greatest exponents of slow sideways passing, have been replaced. They both kept the ball well early in the season undoubtedly but the results and the goals for & goals against columns show that neither of them offered much defensively or offensively.
This has clearrly been rectified late season with Osman providing offensive thrust and Neville/ Heitinga defensive solidity. Fellaini is a good player and may turn out to be a very good one. Will he be as good as Roy Keane? In my opinion, no. Is he 'twice the player' Rodwell is? From what I've seen, no.
"So, taking a punt on what appeared to be potential."
versus
"They were clearly not good enough."
You appear to be as unsure and confused about AJ's and Beattie's ability as was Moyesey.
And don't get me started on Simon Davies...
Just to spell it out: these two had shown potential at lesser clubs ? just like people like Cahill. Moyes gave them the chance to step up ? just like Cahill. Unlike Cahill, they were unable to make the leap... they were shown not to be good enough. This time, the gamble had failed, they went back to where they came from, but Moyes made a profit.
I`m not sure where you got the idea that I`m in anyway unsure about that... never been more certain in my life.
They did not show potential, they proved that they could score goals at this level playing for teams set up to play to thier strengths.
Both players were in their mid-20s when they signed for us. Neither player was a punt. There were a number of clubs in for both players who were at a similar level to us at the time.
Coleman, Gueye are punts, Rodwell is a player with potential.
Those two were their respective sides' best players in the top division of English football, albeit Palace were relegated and he tried to get them back up.
Both players had strengths to play to, Moyes chose not to, if you can't see that then it's no wonder you think the way you do.
What are Rodwell's great footballing abilities? He is not a great passer, his passes not only go sideways but 80% of the time are behind the man.
A great tackler? I have not seen it, a great clean striker of a ball? Not unless 15 yards high and wide is considered good.
Does he go past players for fun and have the crowd on the edge of its seat? Again I have not seen it.
His good points imo are he may learn to read the game well, he is athletic, young English and he does the basics ok.
The more games he plays for us the lower his price tag will become imo.
Only think about the profit before you opt for the serious error of judgement vote... and you may want to consider the fact that these two have been in the game for a combined total of about 20 years, despite all the penalties they took they still couldnt muster 100 prem goals between them ? that averages a combined 10 per season ? and they have played for over 30 managers between them... so did they all fuck them up, or was it just the fella who gave them a shot at the big time? ... or maybe they were just not good enough.
Brian
Sorry lad but your argument is the most pathetic of all, do you rally want me to list the shite, shite players who have gained a few caps for England?
The FACT is they were not good enough, I know it doesn't suit the Moyes bashing cause, but no other manager has got anything other than penalties out of the pair of them.
Beckford came from two divisions down and has scored more than the pair of them put together... perhaps that will tell you something about the standard of these "top" strikers.
Gavin's right as well Dave, sometimes you don't half come across as being up your own arse.
When we were keeping the ball in the early part of the season, we were just playing slowly in front of teams with the opponents happy to let us have it until we entered the final third. It was painfully slow with no penetration and any width being created by a fullback and a converted fullback. It's almost impossible for any players to find space in the danger areas when the opponents have plenty of time to get everybody behind the ball and organise.
It's also a little harsh to criticise Arteta who may have been poor by his own standards last season but for years before has been a fantastic player for us. I like many rate Felliani who is a very good defensive midfielder but, as vital as these kind of players are, they are easier to replace than strikers who score goals and win games and creative midfield players who also have a bigger influence on games imo.
I would like to keep both Felliani and Rodwell but don't believe it will be a huge loss if one or both were to leave for a good fee that could be spent on replacements.
If that means I don't come out with posts like #57, fall over myself to agree with every attack on Moyes even when my eyes tell me a different story, then long may it continue.
Perhaps if Moyes signed Michael Ricketts or Darious Vassel, he wouldn't have been taking a gamble... after all, they too had England caps... just like your top "international", James Beattie.
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1 Posted 27/05/2011 at 00:24:21
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