Toffeeweb - The Mail Bag - 'Being careful' could prove reckless

Mark Tanton
1 Posted 01/08/2011 at 13:38:35

That is quite worrying to look at. More worryingly, Hibbert is only 30. We could see him at right back for another 3 or 4 years. Gutted.

Dan McKie
2 Posted 01/08/2011 at 13:46:16

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That is another reason that if we have the opportunities to sell the likes of Jags and Arteta for decent money, then we need to be doing so and bringing in younger replacements and just hope we can keep that cycle going for a few years. The problem being is that nowadays you dont get Arteta's for £2 mil, Cahills for £1.5mil etc., but letting our squad age like it is doing is a dangerous game to play when we dont know when our next transfer penny is to become available.

Jay Harris
3 Posted 01/08/2011 at 13:57:17

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Even more worrying

Bill Kenwright 66.

He has to go soon.

Martin Handley
4 Posted 01/08/2011 at 14:09:18

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Andrew, I wouldn't include Tim Howard in that as keepers don't hit their prime till 30+,but yes the rest of the list is worrying.
Although you could counter that with the kids,
Rodwell 20
Velios 19
Silva 19
Coleman 22
Barklay 17
Mcalaney 19
Mustaffi 19
Duffy 21
Wallace 19
Baxter 19.
Jay just for once mate leave Bill Kenwright out of it, everybody ages you can't blame him for that!
We were on about the players.

David Chait
5 Posted 01/08/2011 at 14:23:36

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This is exactly the reason we must not be selling the young generation and replacing them an experienced proven 26 year old... we can't afford to age this team further.

Mark Tanton
6 Posted 01/08/2011 at 14:25:08

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Martin, how many of the youngsters will be able to make the transition from youth to senior Premier League players?

The percentages are low.

Andrew Earlam
7 Posted 01/08/2011 at 14:22:41

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Point taken about Howard but relying on that list of young players could eventually see us relegated.how many decent players have we churned out from the youth ranks in the past few years.could you even make a Premiership side out of all those who've made it in the last 10

Gavin Ramejkis
8 Posted 01/08/2011 at 14:25:45

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Jay, have you noticed Black Bill hides the third 6 really well, must be under the blue rinse somewhere

Andrew Earlam
9 Posted 01/08/2011 at 14:28:33

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Lets not forget all of these players are going to be past it within a couple of years of eachother.

David O'Keefe
10 Posted 01/08/2011 at 14:25:16

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Good counter, Martin, but how many will be good enough for the first team? We need some investment in that squad.

Ian McDowell
11 Posted 01/08/2011 at 14:34:05

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I hate to think where Everton might be in 5-10 years.

Anthony Hughes
12 Posted 01/08/2011 at 14:32:19

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Can we please stop calling them "the kids". Besides Barklay the rest are now men who (besides Coleman an d Rodwell who are regulars). If they're good enough then they should be playing this season, a decison that's up to Moyes. Out of that list i think we'll see more of Velios and possibly Duffy than anyone else.

Dan McKie
13 Posted 01/08/2011 at 14:37:55

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Very realistically, we will be without Distin, Neville and Saha in 2 seasons. If things stay the same, how will we replace these players? Id estimate we would be saving around £7 million a year in wages, but it won't create any funds to purchase with. Thats 3 first team regulars going for nothing. I do hope some of the kids make it, but who have we had make it recently? Rodwell....Rooney.....Hibbert/Osman? We are producing 1 every few years if that!

David Chait
14 Posted 01/08/2011 at 14:51:17

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Ian (11): in answer:
http://www.toffeeweb.com/season/11-12/comment/mailbag/18244.html

Yes the team is ageing, but Dan we don't need all of them to come through... but a couple would be good...

Andrew Earlam
15 Posted 01/08/2011 at 14:51:23

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Robert Elstone saying Everybody is ?flat to the floor' looking for improvements, looking for money, looking for players.Is not exactly reassuring as it suggests there is nothing more that can be done by them.

Gavin Ramejkis
16 Posted 01/08/2011 at 14:53:24

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Devil's advocate, if they make the grade doesn't that put them into the crosshairs for selling to keep the club afloat?

Tony McNulty
17 Posted 01/08/2011 at 14:52:25

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Assuming little changes over the next few years, I've often wondered what would happen to Bill's shares were he to join that great Boys' Pen in the sky

Jay Harris
18 Posted 01/08/2011 at 15:04:05

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Even though I cant stand the man I wouldnt wish that on him Tony but there is no doubt he IS the weakest link.

Good one Gav. Never a truer word said in jest.

The devil couldnt have done a better job of taking us backwards with the utmost deceipt and yet still have followers.

I dont fear for the older more experienced players I jus feel that the quality is inadequate and therefore the kids (OK men) will be coming in under pressure to perform instead of gradually easing them in to a pattern of play.

I am also not so worried about Distin and Howard apart from the lack of cover through injury because Goalies and centre backs use their experience to good effect and Distin still has a fair turn of pace but I fear Saha will make this his final season. I just hope it isnt an injury prone one because I really see us as lightweight in the goalscoring dept which given our inability to keep clean sheets will be pretty critical this season.

Trevor Mackie
19 Posted 01/08/2011 at 15:08:56

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Dave @ 5

"we can't afford to age this team further."

for some reason puts me in mind of

"cannot afford a mineshaft gap"

A quote from what famous film please?

A kenwright promise of a fiver to the first correct answer - no googling for at least 10 mins.

Tony McNulty
20 Posted 01/08/2011 at 15:15:25

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Neither would I Jay but our ownership structure appears to be such a mess I wonder what crap might be left behind in such an instance.

"Investment" hasn't worked so far so the alternative must be sale. However the impasse does not look likely to be broken so what happens? Presumably any shareholder's shares become subject to inheritance laws but I guess it is more complicated when you are Chairman/owner.

Gavin Ramejkis
21 Posted 01/08/2011 at 15:27:34

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Dr Strangelove, I'll take that BK fiver and say Wow, it's the first time one has been seen outside the west End

Dan McKie
22 Posted 01/08/2011 at 15:41:55

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Mark, do we even have any money for wages? I dont think we do or we would have possibly got 1 or 2 free transfers in. Barton would still require £2+ million a year, and possibly a signing on fee. £80 million in, £80 million out if the board are to believed *chuckles to himself*.

David Crowe
23 Posted 01/08/2011 at 16:22:39

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We're not an old side, half of those players are on their way out or are hopefully being replaced this summer. Howard's got years left in him. Right now we should only worry about Neville, getting the striker to go with Becks and Louis and replacing Distin next year. Shouldn't be too much of a problem

Dan McKie
24 Posted 01/08/2011 at 16:27:33

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With £0 David, its a huge problem! As for Barton, him being here would probably mean Arteta back out wide, and stunting the likes of Rodwell and Barkley.

Richard Reeves
25 Posted 01/08/2011 at 15:59:01

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A couple of my friends, a red Manc and an Arsenal supporter, claim that our academy is the envy of the Premier League. Not sure about that but it is amongst the best. I only wish more players broke through to the first team and Moyes stopped opting for his usual overly cautious team selections.

Wayne McNee
26 Posted 01/08/2011 at 16:33:13

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Yakubu.. Doggy Years! Hilarious.. He's well in his 30's. Moyes's quote of "A Nigerian 26" a couple of seasons ago says it all.

Barton on a free.. Yes please! Anyone watching him last season can see he really has come on & matured. Sell Arteta & let debt swallow that fee up, then take Jags money & actually purchase a human being with 2 legs that can play & make a difference. Sell Rodwell & do the same.

The boards not changing so it's "wheel & deal" time IMO.

Ian Tunstead
27 Posted 01/08/2011 at 16:36:31

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"Who have we had make it recently? Rodwell... Rooney... Hibbert/Osman? We are producing 1 every few years if that!"

That's a bit harsh, Dan.

It seems to me that Moyes tries to introduce around 2 youngsters a year to break into the first team. After Rooney, Clark and Hughes it was Vaughan and Anichebe. Then Rodwell and Gosling, then Baxter and Wallace, then Colemen and Gueye. Now Barkley and McAleny. With Vellios replacing Vaughan.

Peter Laing
28 Posted 01/08/2011 at 16:43:52

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Apparently Bill Kenwright is gutted, he's just found out that he has been the victim of the News of the World phone hacking scandal and they apparently topped up his pay-as-you-go phone with a £10 credit.

Martin Handley
29 Posted 01/08/2011 at 19:38:08

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Guys I understand your fears over the youngsters I listed but if you don't give 'em a go then we'll never know. I also for Gueye he's only 20. Yes they'll all be retiring within a year or two of one another, but that's in 10 years time so hopefully there'll be a new captain of the ship by then.

If we have to rely on bringing youngsters through then so be it. I remember another club 35 miles up the road who had to do that and they haven't done too badly on it have they?

ps: Sign Joey Barton asap.

David Chait
30 Posted 01/08/2011 at 20:00:41

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Dan (24) .. spot on.. posted almost an identical thought in the Barton thread...

Peter Bourke
31 Posted 02/08/2011 at 01:59:33

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I can see your point here Andrew and I agree in principal with what you are saying. I don't understand the first part of your post though...

The "be careful what you wish for" brigade, will have lots to answer for if they are anywhere to be found if action is not taken soon:

I dont know anyone who is wishing for an aging squad?? The only "Be careful" reference i have noticed in recent times is in relation to Ownership subject.

Chris Bannantyne
32 Posted 02/08/2011 at 02:56:13

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Hey, what's the go with the uncertainty over Yakubus age? I get it that he is recorded as being 28, but appears to be closer to 40... But I mean, is this just a long running joke? Does he not have a birth certificate or something??

Sounds like a job for Donald Trump.

Chris Bannantyne
33 Posted 02/08/2011 at 03:12:55

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Dont worry, just answered my own question. He doesn't have a birth certificate. Interesting.

Michael Brien
34 Posted 02/08/2011 at 07:54:00

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Interesting the comments about Yak. Didn't his wife give birth on Saturday and Yak then insisted on travelling down to be part of the squad for the friendly with Birmingham ? I think that shows a certain degree of commitment to the cause.

I am not saying the guy is the best ever Everton striker I have ever seen - but he is far from the worst. And personally I think it's about time some of you gave him a break. It seems to me that some of the worst stick/criticism/ piss taking about Everton comes from Evertonians. Try getting behind the players some of you.

The team is now too old is it ?- you would think from some of the comments that we are the only team that has over 30 year olds in the squad.

Andrew - why don't you go and put some money on Sunderland. They have been very active in the transfer market and of course that automatically means they are going to be winning trophies doesn't it ? And Blackburn and Birmingham City with their owners who promised mega million transfer budgets as did the Icelandic bloke at West Ham. The promise of glory following multi million takeovers has gone a bit sour at St. Andrews and Upton Park hasn't it ?

Garry Martin
35 Posted 02/08/2011 at 08:09:38

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At what point do we expect our major shareholders start thinking that they may soon have to start looking after their investment ??. Of course, that would mean putting their hands in their pockets, somehow, I can't see the Tottenham Hotspur fan put money into opposition , there again, it depends how much money he stands to lose by NOT !!!.
Basically we either get current internal finance or we go bust ......the ball is firmly in their court now.
I did'nt replace my season this season simply because I'm not going to support EFC while they have big money people sitting with their finger up THEIR arse !!

Ian Hawkins
36 Posted 02/08/2011 at 08:24:03

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As an alternative to the ageing team above, how about a younger team approaching or at there prime.

Howard
Coleman
Jagielka
Heitinga
Baines
Billy
Rodwell
Fellaini
Gueye
Becks
Anichebe

Up to you where you fit in Arteta, or Vellios but a lot less depressing in terms of ages and not so reliant on youth teamers breaking through imediately. Apart from Howard theres 2 different yet decent enough teams to choose from and if a couple of youngsters do break through then all well and good. Also Duffys not been mentioned and he looked almost ready to step up befor e his injury.

Just a thought but maybe not quite as doom and gloom as it sometimes seems....?

Steve Jones
37 Posted 02/08/2011 at 11:44:55

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The target for the Academy has actually doubled - its gone from one first team debut a year to two per year - quite a challenge. And we are the envy of other clubs, and we don't just buy talent age 15 or 16 for millions like some do - we nurture then through. After Barkley expect to see Wallace come good, Lundstrom is a gem, Hope a good bet up front, Browning a lightening fast right back, Bidwell and Garbutt both strong left backs / left sided players.

I would hate to lose any of them before they get a chance, they will be well known names, and I have seen them develop from a younger age.There are more beneath that as well - great legacy from Ray Hall and his team.

Andrew Earlam
38 Posted 02/08/2011 at 12:15:05

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Doesnt the target doubling have more to do with no transfer funding for the manager rather than a explosion of talented youngsters onto the scene.

Steve Jones
39 Posted 02/08/2011 at 12:23:36

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The Academy goals are obviously driven by lack of funding for the first team and its the only practical solution - but we have to work harder scouting to find them early, and then to retain and develop them.
Plus we do have an advantage as parents know they have more of an opportunity to actually come through to the first team because of this - so we can be first choice for them, and this is very well known in our scouting area.

So its actually because of lack of funds for the first team that we have strategically invested in the Academy and local scouting network and now we have top talent coming through. Long term I know, but the only way.

Andrew Earlam
40 Posted 02/08/2011 at 12:40:20

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So everything is going to be alright then.thanks Steve.

Michael Brien
41 Posted 02/08/2011 at 12:47:11

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Andrew - we can't compete with the likes of Man City etc who can pay £38M for a player and pay him £200,000 a week. I suggest that you get used to that. Some people can afford to shop at Harrods and buy their Christmas and Birthday pressies from shops like that. The great majority of us can't - but that doesn't mean that we can't shop.

Back in the 1970's we were one of the major spenders e.g. Bob Latchford, Marin Dobson. During that period I doubt whether Bill Shankly paid anything over £250,000 for a player. It didn't stop "them" being more successful. Yes times have changed - but the principles are the same. For instance we paid £60,000 for Seamus Coleman - who is now worth several million. That's the kind of thing that we have to do more of.

Michael Brien
42 Posted 02/08/2011 at 12:55:14

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Sorry that's Martin Dobson - who when we paid £300,000 for him from Burnley; I remember watching an item on "Newsnight" regarding excessive transfer fees that top clubs were paying. At that time the Liverpool squad included the likes of Ray Clemence - signed from Scunthorpe( then Div 4), Larry LIoyd from 3rd Div Bristol Rovers and somebody called Keegan .

Times have changed. Yes it's now 2011 and we have the Premier League and wall to wall TV coverage. But the principles are the same. There are more "bargains" out there like Coleman and we need to be seeking them out.

Steve Jones
43 Posted 02/08/2011 at 13:16:10

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Yes Andrew, everything will be fine, just trying to explain how it works, don't have such a closed mind and be practical.

If we couple a long term Academy strategy as I have outlined with a decent purchasing approach such as Michael has defined so well, that's our approach and it's the cap that fits us at the moment. Its reality for us.

Better to do that than complain, get frustrated or rely on a lottery windfall.

If we get a Sheikh we can scrap all that, but would that make you happy?

Andrew Earlam
44 Posted 02/08/2011 at 13:43:56

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But let's not change anything eh in case we ruin it all.

Michael Brien
45 Posted 02/08/2011 at 14:03:08

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Andrew - if we get a new owner who provides a decent transfer budget then great. However how many of these takeovers have actually worked out well for the clubs concerned ? I would reckon that most have not been good. For every Abramovic there is a Carsen Yeung and whatever the Icelandic bloke at West Ham is called. And let's not forget the events at Portsmouth - was it 4 owners in a season or 3? And of course the Indian guys at Blackburn and the so called £50M transfer budget.

Tom Bowers
46 Posted 02/08/2011 at 18:28:03

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Some players get to their best when they approach 30 and some stay conistant much longer such as keepers.
Problem is speed. Some players don't have a turn of speed to begin with and once they become thirtieish they can become a liability particularly defenders.
Not many current Everton players have great pace except maybe Beckford, Coleman and Hibbert but not pace persay as Theo Walcott.
Irrespective of this it is alarming that we have so many aging players and that is why I have intimated this close season that Moyes must look to giving his younger players more opportunities early in the season and not just as 10minute subs.

James Flynn
47 Posted 03/08/2011 at 02:22:04

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This list for Top 4 sides would indicate leadership of seasoned professionals. With us, it's doom and gloom.

I favor the Top 4 side view. We can make that last jump up this season. We already know we improve as the season goes on. One of the rare times most dont deny facts.

We need a fast start.