Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Time for a shake-up?
44 Comments: Looks like nothing's going to change in the way of the board and management so I was thinking of ways things could change in other areas.
I?m sure many of you will probably disagree with this and say I?m playing Championship Manager or living in a dream world but I think we should use the rest of the summer to look at making things stable for next year ? if Arsenal want Jags and Arteta then sell them ? clear some players out, clear some debt off and look at rebuilding around the younger players ? Fellaini, Rodwell, Barkley ect?
First off, I?d look at selling the below players (if we have takers):-
£17mil for Jags
£8-13mil for Arteta
£3 mil Yak
£2 mil Yobo
£2/3mil Anichebe
If we sold all those we would be looking at what around £32 mil to £38 mil ? you could pay £25 mil off the debt and still leave Moyes with £7 - 13mil ? he could then look at bringing in a couple of squad/young players or a couple of loans to bulk up the squad and see us through to next summer when we could hopefully look at rebuilding fully then ? with a clear overdraft and hopefully a bit more cash left over from reduced wage bill and less interest payments on the debt.
Incoming ideas:
Onuoha
Christian Benteke striker from Standard
Daniel Sturridge (loan)
Wright Philips ? not his biggest fan but he would add some pace!
Next, as many people have stated on many posts, it?s time for a formation change ? I think with the players we would have left we should give 4-3-3 a go. We can?t do any worse then we are now... it's something I can?t ever see Moyes doing though! ? not defensive enough. - only using the players we currently have (and if the above players were sold) something like (4-2-1-3):-
Howard
Heitinga Distin
Coleman Baines
Rodwell Fellaini
Barkley/Osman
Beckford Saha Bily
Subs:-
Mucha
Nev
Cahill
Hibbert
Vellios
Duffy
Osman/Barkley
t would be easy to also switch this to 4-4-2 if needed.
Play Baines and Coleman as wing backs with either Rodwell (who Moyes said is a Central defender) or Felanni dropping back to help cover the defence (look at playing Nev in place of Rodwell or Fellani in some games too ? or if you want to protect a lead).
I?m not saying Rodwell and Fellaini should be parked in front of the centre backs but we should always have one playing deep to allow for the wingbacks to serge forward.
Barkley/Osman get a free run of the midfield ? Barkley looks like he could be so dangerous playing in the centre. You then also have two other people playing up top with Beckford ? and hopefully see some decent balls played to him. I?d love to see Billy given a proper run player further up the pitch!
And remember this is with no new signings! ? so add a couple of new people and it could really shake things up!
I know it?s never going to happen but it?s an idea I had given the situation we are in and the players we have got. I just thought I?d see what people's thoughts were on it?
[be kind ;) ]
Mat Smith, Posted 21/08/2011 at 17:35:48
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I like your ideas Mat.
I would certainly vote for you over Moyes right now.
It's good to see articles by Evertonians with imagination.
I would certainly vote for you over Moyes right now.
It's good to see articles by Evertonians with imagination.
All the comments made by the fans before and after yesterdays game is not a knee-jerk reaction. We all know what is wrong. This squad is not good enough.They have had ample opportunities but apart from a small bunch of players they cannot get it together as a team or indivuals.
We don't have any money for new blood and so we have to sell a few of those that we can get decent money for.
If that means Rodwell,Jags, Biley and Heitinga for starters then do it.
Hibbert, Anichebe and Osman would go first but nobody would pay for them.
Neville,Cahill,Arteta and Saha are all getting too old to fetch really big fees.
Distin is also too old.
In a desperate financial situation we have to find money somewhere and neither the bank nor investors are available. We need change otherwise we will be fighting relegation again.
We don't have any money for new blood and so we have to sell a few of those that we can get decent money for.
If that means Rodwell,Jags, Biley and Heitinga for starters then do it.
Hibbert, Anichebe and Osman would go first but nobody would pay for them.
Neville,Cahill,Arteta and Saha are all getting too old to fetch really big fees.
Distin is also too old.
In a desperate financial situation we have to find money somewhere and neither the bank nor investors are available. We need change otherwise we will be fighting relegation again.
We MUST keep our best players and ship out the ones who are either not worthy of an EFC place, too old or injury prone... eg: Neville, Cahill, Heitinga (the worst Dutch international I have ever seen), Bily, Saha, Hibbert, Anichebe, Beckford, Yakubu and unfortunately Distin as he has been brilliant and far better than 'Dutch and Bily' who cost far more.
All of the above are less than mediocre with the exception of Distin and the injury-prone Saha.
We are embarrassingly creating so-called legends out of very average players when they are compared to the rest of the Premier League players.
I am totally disgusted at the demise of MY team.... we are seemingly in the same financial boat as Wrexham and I want to know why???
Embezzlement is one answer...
The squad may actualy be good enough but it appears to me that over time, playing without new blood can take the edge off performance and things get stale.
I like your boldness Mat but given Kenwrights stated aim of keeping the players we have, your suggestion goes against current policy, at least as far as selling jags is concerned, which represents the bulk of your dosh.
However I would trust moyes to rebuild well and freshen things given a chance, so I support your idea. Good to read.
I like your boldness Mat but given Kenwrights stated aim of keeping the players we have, your suggestion goes against current policy, at least as far as selling jags is concerned, which represents the bulk of your dosh.
However I would trust moyes to rebuild well and freshen things given a chance, so I support your idea. Good to read.
It won't happen, as much as we are desperate for players i can't see Everton shipping out four or five players before the deadline. The likelyhood is Jags could well be sold and the majority of the funds going to the bank. I really doubt Moyes will see any of this money and that there will be no one coming in before the 31st.
Am I the only one who thinks Moyes has played his part in putting us in the position we currently find ourselves?
I understand the miracles he has performed with no investment year on year, but I feel his insistence on handing half a dozen ageing players bumper new contracts has contributed to putting us up the creek we find ourselves paddleless.
Our wage bill us over 70% of our turnover. This simply is not sustainable. We are paying too many underperforming players too much. If we were to sell 1 or 2, we would be in a much less perilous state.
Arteta is on £65k p/w, Jagielka over £30k. If we were to sell these players for a good profit (£10m-£15m for Arteta, £15m-£20m for Jagielka), we could afford to pay a huge chunk of debt off and be able to put the money saved on wages (roughly £5m a year) towards transfers.
Moyes took a change on lower league players, and on the whole, has done a fantastic job with them. Unfortunately, they have not hit the heights needed to be able to crack the top 4, and now the wages we are paying them are becoming an increasing burden on the club.
If the club were to be open and explain the reason we are doing it, short term pain long term gain. We would finish a little lower for a couple of years, but we would be in a much healthier position for it.
Rant over!
I understand the miracles he has performed with no investment year on year, but I feel his insistence on handing half a dozen ageing players bumper new contracts has contributed to putting us up the creek we find ourselves paddleless.
Our wage bill us over 70% of our turnover. This simply is not sustainable. We are paying too many underperforming players too much. If we were to sell 1 or 2, we would be in a much less perilous state.
Arteta is on £65k p/w, Jagielka over £30k. If we were to sell these players for a good profit (£10m-£15m for Arteta, £15m-£20m for Jagielka), we could afford to pay a huge chunk of debt off and be able to put the money saved on wages (roughly £5m a year) towards transfers.
Moyes took a change on lower league players, and on the whole, has done a fantastic job with them. Unfortunately, they have not hit the heights needed to be able to crack the top 4, and now the wages we are paying them are becoming an increasing burden on the club.
If the club were to be open and explain the reason we are doing it, short term pain long term gain. We would finish a little lower for a couple of years, but we would be in a much healthier position for it.
Rant over!
If we sell players to pay off part of the debt and to save on the wage bill then we couldn't afford to add Shaun Wright-Phillips. Weren't his reported weekly wages of £65,000 at Man City one of the reasons he wasn't snapped up by other clubs ? We are shopping in the bargain basement for free transfers and/or cheap wages until Kenwright quits...
The Vibrac loan shows BK has just got himself another stay of execution and will be bunker bound hoping for a non-relegation season, he doesn't give a toss as long as he can maintain control, part of me wishes the banks would close in on him to force the situation.
I couldn't agree more with this and was thinking of posting a similar thread / mailbag submission.
Some of the players fetching larger fees can go and we should sell them. It is in the best long term interest of Everton Football Club and should be done sooner rather than later. $45 million in debt is simply death for a Club our size. It is not manageable debt whatsoever.
Arteta can still fetch $10 million and Jags $12 million minimally. They need to leave and we must cash in and pay our debt down before the close of this window.
OR -
Everton Football Club can say selling and creating a slightly smaller team is suicide. They will say the squad isn't big enough and we can't let anyone go. Fine then... stand pat. Keep the wholly ineffective Arteta (last 12 months or so) and the lump it up to the left side to no one Jageilka - who was just absolutely awful yesterday. Guess what happens? We sit 7th, don't make additional monies, and start the whole fucking thing over again. If we DO sell and reduce the debt the worst case scenario is around 14th I'd say. We're NOT going down. Does that suck? Yep. But the future will get worse if we don't do something about our financial plight. You just don't put blinders on and move forward hoping for a miracle.
It's NOT FM!!! It's good business!
8 years from 7 million to the good to $45 million in debt! Forget about KD or DK or any of that! That is gross mismanagement of the highest order and ONLY Kenwright is to blame.
Sell now and get healthy. It'll hurt short term but it's the best long term medicine.
Good shout in the main Mat IMO.
Some of the players fetching larger fees can go and we should sell them. It is in the best long term interest of Everton Football Club and should be done sooner rather than later. $45 million in debt is simply death for a Club our size. It is not manageable debt whatsoever.
Arteta can still fetch $10 million and Jags $12 million minimally. They need to leave and we must cash in and pay our debt down before the close of this window.
OR -
Everton Football Club can say selling and creating a slightly smaller team is suicide. They will say the squad isn't big enough and we can't let anyone go. Fine then... stand pat. Keep the wholly ineffective Arteta (last 12 months or so) and the lump it up to the left side to no one Jageilka - who was just absolutely awful yesterday. Guess what happens? We sit 7th, don't make additional monies, and start the whole fucking thing over again. If we DO sell and reduce the debt the worst case scenario is around 14th I'd say. We're NOT going down. Does that suck? Yep. But the future will get worse if we don't do something about our financial plight. You just don't put blinders on and move forward hoping for a miracle.
It's NOT FM!!! It's good business!
8 years from 7 million to the good to $45 million in debt! Forget about KD or DK or any of that! That is gross mismanagement of the highest order and ONLY Kenwright is to blame.
Sell now and get healthy. It'll hurt short term but it's the best long term medicine.
Good shout in the main Mat IMO.
Pls note, All $$ signs should be those pesky little British Pound signs.
Some American keyboards don't have that rascally little thing.
Some American keyboards don't have that rascally little thing.
Its nice to see people agree with what i said. :)
Like someone pointed out it prob would hit us this season but i cant see us getting relegated with that squad and a few additions - and like i said Richard those player suggestions were just ideas - not who i think we should go all out to sign.
I just feel if the board/management actually put some thought into things then there could be light at the end of the tunnel - maybe one day they will listen to the fans or try something new and a bit risky.
Like someone pointed out it prob would hit us this season but i cant see us getting relegated with that squad and a few additions - and like i said Richard those player suggestions were just ideas - not who i think we should go all out to sign.
I just feel if the board/management actually put some thought into things then there could be light at the end of the tunnel - maybe one day they will listen to the fans or try something new and a bit risky.
Well said, Gavin. I truly despair at whats goin on... they (both Moyes and Kenwright are (or so it appears) unmovable. They have got themselves into such a position with the media that anything we say is frowned upon. They have and are, jointly killing us!
I feel so sick about the whole deception that the media believes or can't be arsed to report on. Even yesterday, if Man Utd had left Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez on the bench and lost to QPR, they would say (of Ferguson), that he's lost the plot! But because it's us, there's no interest... this is where they have brought us. Second-rate leaders offering second-rate advice,
I actually feel like crying... it's not Kenwright's Everton, it's not Moyes's, its' mine. And everyone of ours... leave us alone, you're killing us ? can't you see it?
Gutted.
I have known for years, like you, but is there any hope? I am now thinking its time to just grow old and forget about it.
My Everton...................Mine!
I feel so sick about the whole deception that the media believes or can't be arsed to report on. Even yesterday, if Man Utd had left Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez on the bench and lost to QPR, they would say (of Ferguson), that he's lost the plot! But because it's us, there's no interest... this is where they have brought us. Second-rate leaders offering second-rate advice,
I actually feel like crying... it's not Kenwright's Everton, it's not Moyes's, its' mine. And everyone of ours... leave us alone, you're killing us ? can't you see it?
Gutted.
I have known for years, like you, but is there any hope? I am now thinking its time to just grow old and forget about it.
My Everton...................Mine!
Couldn't agree more. We need to shake things up. The whole team has gone stale. No fight, no creativity. If the situation is that we must sell to buy then I think that needs to be done. Selling one or two might also be a wake up call to the others. We should look to get rid of some of the passengers that we have been carrying, namely heitinga, bily, Anichebe.
Fully agree with you Jimmy! Cool name by the way.:-) We need to start over again in some way and reducing the wages will be the way to go.
Jags should be sold now, 15 million is good and we should sell him if an offer came in.
We d o have cover in defence so that will not hurt us.
Moyes is the wall standing in the way of us getting rid of our debt. He is stubborn to the degree of paranoia, and I feel he should be sacked or forced to go from a fan uprise or protest.
Good start on the qpr game, think he feels the pressure and if he doesnt leave the players will continue to suffer for it. The players are scared and depressed and it shows on the field, when too many players underperforms than it is a sign of something wrong.
Think Moyes has to go in order for us to stay alive.
Jags should be sold now, 15 million is good and we should sell him if an offer came in.
We d o have cover in defence so that will not hurt us.
Moyes is the wall standing in the way of us getting rid of our debt. He is stubborn to the degree of paranoia, and I feel he should be sacked or forced to go from a fan uprise or protest.
Good start on the qpr game, think he feels the pressure and if he doesnt leave the players will continue to suffer for it. The players are scared and depressed and it shows on the field, when too many players underperforms than it is a sign of something wrong.
Think Moyes has to go in order for us to stay alive.
A football manager is supposed to give the team leadership and direction. There was very little evidence of that from Moyes on Saturday. It's time for him to face up to his responsibilities. He decides the tactics and picks the team.
Moyes seems to strut around the touchline area secure in the knowledge that he is apparently untouchable. Get real peoople - Moyes has a lot to answer for. He persisites with negative tactics. He would employ 4-5-1 if we were at home to South Liverpool in the FA Cup. Beckford struggled on Saturday - I think Bob Latchford would have struggled on Saturday - a striker needs to have good service and needs to have support. That was very much lacking on Saturday.
Cahill - well if you think 4-5-1 always suits him on Saturday he looked as if he was caught in between playing as the " support" striker or as a midfielder.
When he brought on Fellani for Beckford we had no recognised striker on the pitch - yet there was 3 on the bench. What kind of message do you think that sent to our strikers !!!
It's about time that Moyes realised that he is not above criticism.
Moyes seems to strut around the touchline area secure in the knowledge that he is apparently untouchable. Get real peoople - Moyes has a lot to answer for. He persisites with negative tactics. He would employ 4-5-1 if we were at home to South Liverpool in the FA Cup. Beckford struggled on Saturday - I think Bob Latchford would have struggled on Saturday - a striker needs to have good service and needs to have support. That was very much lacking on Saturday.
Cahill - well if you think 4-5-1 always suits him on Saturday he looked as if he was caught in between playing as the " support" striker or as a midfielder.
When he brought on Fellani for Beckford we had no recognised striker on the pitch - yet there was 3 on the bench. What kind of message do you think that sent to our strikers !!!
It's about time that Moyes realised that he is not above criticism.
That should be " persists with 4-5-1" !!!
On MOTD Moyes said we need strikers - is 3 on the bench not enough for him ?
On MOTD Moyes said we need strikers - is 3 on the bench not enough for him ?
Agree Michael, one of those he gave a new contract to yet the negative fucker throws on a holding midfielder, what does that say about those forwards left on the bench?
He says he needs three forwards, yet only plays one up front anyway.
The man gets away with murder as no one in the press has the balls to criticise him, The Daily Post is at it today blaming everything for Saturday bar the inept negative coaching, these are the same men who two weeks ago were telling us to stop being negative as this is the same squad minus Pienaar that everyone tipped to challenge the top four and Moyes himself was so confident too, yet now he tells us we will struggle to finish in the top ten, well sorry boys there are many you cannot kid, the gate on Saturday was the lowest first home game since 1992 I think and heaven knows how many will turn up on Wednesday.
He says he needs three forwards, yet only plays one up front anyway.
The man gets away with murder as no one in the press has the balls to criticise him, The Daily Post is at it today blaming everything for Saturday bar the inept negative coaching, these are the same men who two weeks ago were telling us to stop being negative as this is the same squad minus Pienaar that everyone tipped to challenge the top four and Moyes himself was so confident too, yet now he tells us we will struggle to finish in the top ten, well sorry boys there are many you cannot kid, the gate on Saturday was the lowest first home game since 1992 I think and heaven knows how many will turn up on Wednesday.
This Vibrac guy, post 8 , above - have never heard of him! When did we sign him? What position? I guess it's a loan.
I think we can all agree that a shake up is required but Jags is the only player anyones been interested in - the Beckford bid was laughable. If we assume that at least three players are needed then were going to have to pull in cash from elsewhere. No chance unfortunately.
Yes definately time for a big change after saturday's result and that includes a new manager. I think Moyes has no new ideas now so time for a more positive manager.
Sell Jagielka (Heitinga, Distin, Duffy, Rodwell can do his job). Sell Arteta (Barkley can do his job). We desperately need wingers as central midlfielders playing wide does not work. If nobody wants Yakubu then use him, he can still score goals I am sure.
Sell Jagielka (Heitinga, Distin, Duffy, Rodwell can do his job). Sell Arteta (Barkley can do his job). We desperately need wingers as central midlfielders playing wide does not work. If nobody wants Yakubu then use him, he can still score goals I am sure.
Who says the bank will let us have any money from player sales?
With Yobo pretty much gone, if we sell Jags and then lose Distin/ Johnny to injury how many people will criticise Moyes for selling Jags?
Similarly if we sell off a number of players for about £25m in order to reduce the debt and spend the next five years finishing 14th instead of seventh, thus losing approximately £5m a year in prize money howmuch better of will we be?
With Yobo pretty much gone, if we sell Jags and then lose Distin/ Johnny to injury how many people will criticise Moyes for selling Jags?
Similarly if we sell off a number of players for about £25m in order to reduce the debt and spend the next five years finishing 14th instead of seventh, thus losing approximately £5m a year in prize money howmuch better of will we be?
We dominated the QPR game and the only thing missing was the end product. Shane Long would of been perfect but we have no money so we have to find a way somehow to bring in a quality striker on loan if we can, Beckford is a good player but not good enough to score goals on a regular basis in the prem. Saha is world class but injured to often. Yakubu is a goalscorer but Moyes seems to of lost faith so we have to do something. Sell whoever we need to sell to get enough for a striker. Rodwell, Jagielka would be a shame to get rid of but not a disaster and spend some of it on a striker either on loan or permanant. Its not quite as bad as we're making out, yes losing to QPR is disgusting but we should of won that match and with a goalscorer we would of.
I will first say that I know less about finance than anyone.
Secondly, I suffer with dyscalculia (it IS real - it's doing for thick at maths what dyslexia did for thick at writing).
Anyway, I was thinking yesterday that with us having flogged everything, the banks giving us down the..er...them and our major shareholders (to use a city financial term) not prepared to give us a fucking carrot, do we have ANY leverage?
Well one thing occurred that wouldn't actually cost our shareholders anything but might help us.
They say to Barclays (or whoever) "We'll ALL keep our money in YOUR bank (ie: billions!) but only if you stop cracking the whip and fucking behave.
Type...stuff.
I WILL accept with good grace all and every response beginning (along the lines) 'You dumb twat, it doesn't work like that...'
Secondly, I suffer with dyscalculia (it IS real - it's doing for thick at maths what dyslexia did for thick at writing).
Anyway, I was thinking yesterday that with us having flogged everything, the banks giving us down the..er...them and our major shareholders (to use a city financial term) not prepared to give us a fucking carrot, do we have ANY leverage?
Well one thing occurred that wouldn't actually cost our shareholders anything but might help us.
They say to Barclays (or whoever) "We'll ALL keep our money in YOUR bank (ie: billions!) but only if you stop cracking the whip and fucking behave.
Type...stuff.
I WILL accept with good grace all and every response beginning (along the lines) 'You dumb twat, it doesn't work like that...'
How about this one then?
Sell Jagielka and buy Onouha and Wright Phillips and give the bank some?
Sell Jagielka and buy Onouha and Wright Phillips and give the bank some?
Even if (and it would be the world's biggest IF) Kenwright decided to sack Moyes we couldn't afford to pay up the remainder of his contract.. What would we be looking at 9-10 million?
The man is fucking immovable.
The man is fucking immovable.
Not sure if anyone else has already pointed this out but... even if we clear the debt this year, and reduce the big wages of players mentioned... Everton FC still won't be making money, so where does the transfer kitty come from?
Oh and £25M to clear all debts is VERY optimistic.
I agree we need a shake up, but this is a wee bit extreme, and could end up shaking us into the Championship. I'd be happy to see yak and yobo cleared out, freeing enough money in wages saved to afford one decent wide player on loan. Surely there must be room for that at the very least.
Oh and £25M to clear all debts is VERY optimistic.
I agree we need a shake up, but this is a wee bit extreme, and could end up shaking us into the Championship. I'd be happy to see yak and yobo cleared out, freeing enough money in wages saved to afford one decent wide player on loan. Surely there must be room for that at the very least.
If one looks closely enough one can see that several of our top players have been below par for quite some time.
Arteta and Jags have not been the same since their injuries last season and It remains to be seen if Fellaini will recover the form he had before his injury.
Cahill was poor after the Asian cup for Oz in January although he put himself about on Saturday he missed to gilt edged opportunities.
It would be nice if we could get by with the advancement of the youngsters but alas we need a big upturn in team effort.
Moyes will probably play a mixed team of younger players and some still wanting full match fitness against Sheffield Utd.
Seems highly unlikely there will be any incoming or outgoing players until January except maybe Yobo and Yak.
Arteta and Jags have not been the same since their injuries last season and It remains to be seen if Fellaini will recover the form he had before his injury.
Cahill was poor after the Asian cup for Oz in January although he put himself about on Saturday he missed to gilt edged opportunities.
It would be nice if we could get by with the advancement of the youngsters but alas we need a big upturn in team effort.
Moyes will probably play a mixed team of younger players and some still wanting full match fitness against Sheffield Utd.
Seems highly unlikely there will be any incoming or outgoing players until January except maybe Yobo and Yak.
Personally i would like some of the older players to move on, i honestly would keep Jags, the players i think we can still sell for a decent sum while still not unbalancing the team are:
Heitinga - £6m (if he is not playing at centre half then he should be sold.
Billy - £6m (complete disappointment, his stock back in russia should still be ok.
Arteta - £8m (not the player he was, and the highest earner per week)
Yobo - £3m (would drive him to Turkey myself if it would hurry the deal up)
Yakubu -£3m (just not in the plans)
Total of £26m, give £16m to the bank to keep them happy and give Moyes £10m to sort out a striker and a wide player.
One other point, getting sick of Moyes negative tactics now, think its all a bit stale - Mark Hughes anyone?
Heitinga - £6m (if he is not playing at centre half then he should be sold.
Billy - £6m (complete disappointment, his stock back in russia should still be ok.
Arteta - £8m (not the player he was, and the highest earner per week)
Yobo - £3m (would drive him to Turkey myself if it would hurry the deal up)
Yakubu -£3m (just not in the plans)
Total of £26m, give £16m to the bank to keep them happy and give Moyes £10m to sort out a striker and a wide player.
One other point, getting sick of Moyes negative tactics now, think its all a bit stale - Mark Hughes anyone?
Steve @ 21 -
We won't be able to keep any of the sale proceeds - get used to it. The bank will seize it so fast it will barely hit our account before it's gone.
Re the finishing of 14th and "losing out on $5 mil a year"....
How much do you think we're paying in interest on that $45 million?
At 5% (ridiculously low and it's prob more like 7 to 9% as we're clearly a risky loan) it's $2.25 mil a year. Then there's the stop gap loan of $13 million which I'd almost guarantee is hefty in interest. Oh, and then there's the additional $50 million....
We're not losing out on $5 mil a year if we finish 14th-ish.... It doesn't work that way.
But if we chase that $5 million in "prize money" we'll most certainly be in administration in the very near future b/c we can not sustain the current debt load.
We won't be able to keep any of the sale proceeds - get used to it. The bank will seize it so fast it will barely hit our account before it's gone.
Re the finishing of 14th and "losing out on $5 mil a year"....
How much do you think we're paying in interest on that $45 million?
At 5% (ridiculously low and it's prob more like 7 to 9% as we're clearly a risky loan) it's $2.25 mil a year. Then there's the stop gap loan of $13 million which I'd almost guarantee is hefty in interest. Oh, and then there's the additional $50 million....
We're not losing out on $5 mil a year if we finish 14th-ish.... It doesn't work that way.
But if we chase that $5 million in "prize money" we'll most certainly be in administration in the very near future b/c we can not sustain the current debt load.
Jamie thankyou for agreeing with my first point, it was aimed at all those people suggesting we pay off some debt and use the rest to buy players. Any players we sell will not be replaced. As for the £5m, we will still bve paying interest on the rest of the debt as the figures we will get for selling these players will not clear it, so I say we won't really be any better of financially in five years timeif we sell all of our best players now and suffer the lower placings.
Shame you didn't give an opinion on Jags issue, you seem to have your head screwed on and I would be interested to know how you think people will react.
Shame you didn't give an opinion on Jags issue, you seem to have your head screwed on and I would be interested to know how you think people will react.
When does an offer..... become too silly to turn down?
I mean look, we now know that any money we get in for selling any player is going to the bank because they have called in the debt, and if by some small bit of luck they might just let us keep some to pay Jean the tea lady for an extra slice of cake for her win bonus (if we ever get one, that is !) and there might be a bit left over for a signing or three.
So the question is: do we tell one and all to go take a running jump and nobody is going anywhere (apart from Big Vic)? Or do we grab the cash with open arms and screw them for every last penny we can get and put the trust into the 2nd XI and the youth to get us out of this mire?
I know some players are rated more than others but if an offer came in for £20M for Jags could anyone really say no???
Hang on, Steve (#31) ? please let's keep it real.
The bank(s) have NOT called in the debt. No way, no how.
The minute they do that, and it's Administration time, I would imagine.
The bank(s) have NOT called in the debt. No way, no how.
The minute they do that, and it's Administration time, I would imagine.
Rodwell is useless in midfield and apparently we can get £18m for Jags.
So ship him, put rodwell back in CB, where his athleticism, height and pace will be better used. Give 10m to the bank and spend 8m on Sturridge or another striker who will guarantee some sharpness and some goals.
Easy Peasy.
So ship him, put rodwell back in CB, where his athleticism, height and pace will be better used. Give 10m to the bank and spend 8m on Sturridge or another striker who will guarantee some sharpness and some goals.
Easy Peasy.
I believe the only viable solution to solve the whole damn mess is for Moyes to resign . This would completely devalue Everton as an investment (the whole world thinks its only Moyes keeping this club alive and competitive) and whilst I believe many other players would soon follow, it would actually clear the deadwood we have at every level - board, adminstration, players etc .
The outcome would be Everton dicing with adminstration, relegation etc but we would at least come out of it with a reasonable good chance of a sound strategy to take us forward.
The outcome would be Everton dicing with adminstration, relegation etc but we would at least come out of it with a reasonable good chance of a sound strategy to take us forward.
Poyet for me, a man who not only plays the right way but makes sure the first to the youth team play in exactly the same way
My kind of manager
My kind of manager
Michael, I never said that they had called in the debt, I said that they were not going to let us keep the money from sales, calling in the debt means we have to pay or face administration. What the bank is doing is saying that money coming into the club must go towards reducing the debt. It is the same as your bank asking you to reduce your overdraft slowly over a long(ish) period of time rather than asking you to simply "clear your overdraft in the next seven days or legal action will be taken" etc. etc.
Steve Pugh (#36) ? sorry if I caused confusion. I was referring specifically to Steve Smith's message (#31) where he uses the words "called in the debt".
I don't recall Kenwright saying that the banks want the debt to be reduced (however, I might've missed that amidst the deluded ramblings). I recall he did say they can't get any more credit, but that is not the same thing... is it?
I don't recall Kenwright saying that the banks want the debt to be reduced (however, I might've missed that amidst the deluded ramblings). I recall he did say they can't get any more credit, but that is not the same thing... is it?
Seems like the post has gone down the same route as all other posts ? ?kenwright out?, ?Moyes out?, ?sign xxx? ? the whole point of my post was to try and take a realistic look at a possible solution ? not a quick fix ? or a dream world solution ? but something realistic with what we have got. Lets face it we would all love it if Kenwright sold up and we got a rich board then they either replaced Moyes (as some want) or give him cash to spend (as others want) ? but I?m sorry I honestly can?t see it happening for a VERY long time ? Kenwright seems happy where he is and seems to think he?s the best person for the job ? so looking at alernatives was the idea
I never said £25mil would pay off the FULL debt we are in ? what I was saying is that £25mil would pay off the overdraft. Feel free to correct me if I?m wrong here (I don?t claim to know everything) but unless banks change the way they run when you get into large figures like this then the debt that?s stopping us trading is the overdraft ? the loan/loans will be taken over a period of time but the overdraft is available money ? you pay off and draw on when you want. You pay that off the banks will either reduce it/take it off you/ or leave it for you to use ? depending on how they see you as a customer ? but either way you have just saved yourself a high interest rate on the money ? then any money left over from player sales could be used on bringing in a few players ? unless you are in SERIOUS trouble ? like someone else said bordering on administration ? the banks can?t just take money off you! ? so Moyes would get a few quid to spend to strengthen without going mad.
If you look at the players that would be sold I honestly don?t think they would be missed:
Jags - you?ve got a first team squad member in Heitinga that would slot straight in ? you?re not selling someone then having to bring in an outside replacement.
Arteta ? what has he really done over the last few years? ? I would be sad to see him go but if it?s the best thing for the future of the club it needs to be done
Does anyone think selling Yak. Yobo and Anichebe would really make us finish lower in the league?
Then next summer Moyes should actually have some money to spend ? you?ve saved on bank interest, player wages and you have no overdraft to pay? YES you MAY lose money on final Prem finish position but that?s not certain ? that?s something you will never know! ? How do you know where the current squad will finish? How do you know the new squad won?t finish higher? You can only speculate on that ? but you do know for certain that you will have saved on interest and player wages!
Guess my point is at the end of the day is ? stabilise the club and build for the future around the youngsters ? I?m just trying to be realistic.
I never said £25mil would pay off the FULL debt we are in ? what I was saying is that £25mil would pay off the overdraft. Feel free to correct me if I?m wrong here (I don?t claim to know everything) but unless banks change the way they run when you get into large figures like this then the debt that?s stopping us trading is the overdraft ? the loan/loans will be taken over a period of time but the overdraft is available money ? you pay off and draw on when you want. You pay that off the banks will either reduce it/take it off you/ or leave it for you to use ? depending on how they see you as a customer ? but either way you have just saved yourself a high interest rate on the money ? then any money left over from player sales could be used on bringing in a few players ? unless you are in SERIOUS trouble ? like someone else said bordering on administration ? the banks can?t just take money off you! ? so Moyes would get a few quid to spend to strengthen without going mad.
If you look at the players that would be sold I honestly don?t think they would be missed:
Jags - you?ve got a first team squad member in Heitinga that would slot straight in ? you?re not selling someone then having to bring in an outside replacement.
Arteta ? what has he really done over the last few years? ? I would be sad to see him go but if it?s the best thing for the future of the club it needs to be done
Does anyone think selling Yak. Yobo and Anichebe would really make us finish lower in the league?
Then next summer Moyes should actually have some money to spend ? you?ve saved on bank interest, player wages and you have no overdraft to pay? YES you MAY lose money on final Prem finish position but that?s not certain ? that?s something you will never know! ? How do you know where the current squad will finish? How do you know the new squad won?t finish higher? You can only speculate on that ? but you do know for certain that you will have saved on interest and player wages!
Guess my point is at the end of the day is ? stabilise the club and build for the future around the youngsters ? I?m just trying to be realistic.
Yobo is not yet listed as a player at Fenerbahce but this article seems to add weight to the rumour http://www.nigerianbestforum.com/blog/?p=91904
Sam (33)... It might well look good on paper, but I can be sure our poor defense would become utterly shit if Rodwell replaced Jags at CB.
To be honest, Rodwell needs a rocket up his arse along with most others in our lethargic squad.
To be honest, Rodwell needs a rocket up his arse along with most others in our lethargic squad.
Steve -
I'll take a stab at the Jags thing. But frankly I'm still digesting this, and a few assumptions I made about the additional 50 million plus in liabilities was incorrect. I had assumed that sum was long-term manageable debt. Eric and Gavin on Lyndon's thread (I believe I read them correctly) indicate it is NOT long term debt but a liability listed on the ledger. They definitely know more about this than I, so I will assume that correct.
I personally, having just logged on 5 minutes ago and having read the submissions from Eric and Gavin, can not fathom how we're even still in business. I see no way out of this mess for BK either. I just don't know how he can reverse a negative 42 million AFTER applying assets (64K in assets v 93K +13K in liabilities). In short, I'm out of my league officially, but know enough to understand this is a very dire situation. BTW - I didn't take the time to look up the exact numbers, they may be off a bit.
If BK were to sell in the next year, I'd not sell Jags. The debt would be cleared at purchase by the new owners. BUT
we clearly don't seem able to count on that, and we simply have to begin debt reduction in earnest.
I'd sell Jags tomorrow if a bid for $12 million or more came knocking. No question. I'd cover with Heitinga. Rodwell, well he's supposedly a CB so I'd have him, Nev, Duffy, and even Hibbo in dire straits cover / back-up. Gulp.
I would sell 2 to 3 players of double digit value tomorrow if I could, attempt to get Everton back on some firm (shaky but not death-like) ground, and move forward.
It's clear as day we have to sell IMO. Jags, Arteta, and even Felliani could go. I'd support Moyes for doing so and in fact if the situation is as dire as I think it is, I'd be happy he did it.
Not very happy with the starting line-up mind you, but happy we'd be trying to secure our future financially. Currently, we seem to be very close to death, and I'd support player sell-offs to get us healthy.
I'd also support Beckford not playing up top alone, but that is entirely a different matter. :0)
I'll take a stab at the Jags thing. But frankly I'm still digesting this, and a few assumptions I made about the additional 50 million plus in liabilities was incorrect. I had assumed that sum was long-term manageable debt. Eric and Gavin on Lyndon's thread (I believe I read them correctly) indicate it is NOT long term debt but a liability listed on the ledger. They definitely know more about this than I, so I will assume that correct.
I personally, having just logged on 5 minutes ago and having read the submissions from Eric and Gavin, can not fathom how we're even still in business. I see no way out of this mess for BK either. I just don't know how he can reverse a negative 42 million AFTER applying assets (64K in assets v 93K +13K in liabilities). In short, I'm out of my league officially, but know enough to understand this is a very dire situation. BTW - I didn't take the time to look up the exact numbers, they may be off a bit.
If BK were to sell in the next year, I'd not sell Jags. The debt would be cleared at purchase by the new owners. BUT
we clearly don't seem able to count on that, and we simply have to begin debt reduction in earnest.
I'd sell Jags tomorrow if a bid for $12 million or more came knocking. No question. I'd cover with Heitinga. Rodwell, well he's supposedly a CB so I'd have him, Nev, Duffy, and even Hibbo in dire straits cover / back-up. Gulp.
I would sell 2 to 3 players of double digit value tomorrow if I could, attempt to get Everton back on some firm (shaky but not death-like) ground, and move forward.
It's clear as day we have to sell IMO. Jags, Arteta, and even Felliani could go. I'd support Moyes for doing so and in fact if the situation is as dire as I think it is, I'd be happy he did it.
Not very happy with the starting line-up mind you, but happy we'd be trying to secure our future financially. Currently, we seem to be very close to death, and I'd support player sell-offs to get us healthy.
I'd also support Beckford not playing up top alone, but that is entirely a different matter. :0)
Moyes is still after a winger preferably a left-winger after missing out on N'Zogbia.
I wonder what others think about Jean Beausejour (Birmingham City). He is a Chilean international with World Cup and Copa America experience. He scored at Goodison last season and by all accounts Birmingham are worse off than us and have to sell.
I like him. He has pace and could link up nicely with Baines. Not sure what the price would be but we could do a loan deal.
A Century for the Blues, and another first for Everton.
The woeful defeat against QPR on Saturday was, according to Opta, our 100th defeat at Goodison Park in the Premier League. We're the first club to achieve this. No doubt there are a few more to come this season!
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1 Posted 21/08/2011 at 20:28:50
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Well you did say it yourself.
From Moyes' comments, I think he's pretty much resolute that he won't sell anyone and keep what he has, rather than shrink the squad and lose most of the income to the banks.
We don't have a big squad, and it's unlikely we'd be replacing like-for-like quality-wise, so he'll hold what he has, and hope that the 24/7 search finally pays off.
Yes it is boring isn't it.