Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Are we partly to blame?
83 Comments: Now this is bound to cause arguments but it is my observations from Saturday. I went to the game after waiting 12 years for QPR ? my best mate's team ? to play us.
I do not get to lots of home games but did notice, as did my first-timer mate, that the atmosphere was dead! Before the game outside, not one song! Only once did the crowd even show a glimse of atmosphere during the game. We only really sang when Arteta came on.
My point is I know they have to give us something to sing about but my feeling is, had we been rocking from the start, it would have got them going!
"Is this a library?" from the away fans ? that really annoyed me.
Get behind them Wednesday night... make it loud, and we will see a result!
Rob Lyons, Posted 23/08/2011 at 11:15:38
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You're spot on Rob! Normally on the walk up to the ground, there is such a buzz, especially for the first home game of the season. The atmosphere in the pubs was tepid ? almost like a back to work on a Monday morning in January after the Xmas holidays... It's become a chore more than a pleasure. It is very worrying!
You know what? You're right. the fact that I don't scream like a loon even though there is no entertainment value is the reason why Cahill misses from two yards and that our players never move into space or take a fecking eternity to take a throw in.
feck off
feck off
Should be renamed Gloom-dison Park.
Yes, it was our fans' fault that Moyes picked that ridiculous starting eleven...
I would also blame his schoolboy substitutions on the lack of singing..
How about this for a revolutionary idea... the piss poor football was down to the piss poor coaching, management and tactics.
We have a manager who can't even put his best eleven players, for that game, on the field at the same time..
The man never learns.
I would also blame his schoolboy substitutions on the lack of singing..
How about this for a revolutionary idea... the piss poor football was down to the piss poor coaching, management and tactics.
We have a manager who can't even put his best eleven players, for that game, on the field at the same time..
The man never learns.
By having the same manager and his rigid tactics for 10 years is starting to have a widespread boredom cover the whole crowd, we know what's coming next.
Sorry but the atmosphere should be generated by the performance.
When you have the players going through the motions then the reaction from the crowd is likely to be the same.
Personally I just cannot understand how after nearly 10 years at Everton Moyes doesnt know how to get the team to get the crowd going. Its simple, if the team show some passion then the crowd get behind them.
Goodison is an intimidating place when the fans are given something to get behind. All the players need to do is play with energy and 'get stuck in', simple as that. Look at how the atmosphere changed in the Man City game last season because of Rodwell's foul on De Jong and Kompany's subsequent reaction. Yes it was a foul by Rodwell but once Kompany dared to confront Rodwell then there was only one villain and that was the City player.
Think of Neville's challenge on Ronaldo, exactly the same scenario. think of the feeing of injustice at the Chelsea game last season...
Moyes should send his team out at home and just tell them to play with some vigour and if things go flat he should have someone in the team pick an argument with one opf their players. He doesnt do this - he sends the team out to play pedestrian stand off football which will never get Goodison rocking.
God I'm depressed !!!!!!!!!
When you have the players going through the motions then the reaction from the crowd is likely to be the same.
Personally I just cannot understand how after nearly 10 years at Everton Moyes doesnt know how to get the team to get the crowd going. Its simple, if the team show some passion then the crowd get behind them.
Goodison is an intimidating place when the fans are given something to get behind. All the players need to do is play with energy and 'get stuck in', simple as that. Look at how the atmosphere changed in the Man City game last season because of Rodwell's foul on De Jong and Kompany's subsequent reaction. Yes it was a foul by Rodwell but once Kompany dared to confront Rodwell then there was only one villain and that was the City player.
Think of Neville's challenge on Ronaldo, exactly the same scenario. think of the feeing of injustice at the Chelsea game last season...
Moyes should send his team out at home and just tell them to play with some vigour and if things go flat he should have someone in the team pick an argument with one opf their players. He doesnt do this - he sends the team out to play pedestrian stand off football which will never get Goodison rocking.
God I'm depressed !!!!!!!!!
You're way off there Rob, we've had many fantastic atmospheres at Goodison down the years but the performances and general lack of entertainment, spark, vitality and passion of recent times, (not to mention quality) is having an overall dulling effect to the senses.
Old Trafford is like a graveyard at times, but it doesn't seem to affect their players.
Sometimes it is awful, at the Fulham home game last season they had about 10 fans and they were losing and their team was playing shit and they still out sung us. People used to always say how good the fans at Goodison were but I haven't heard that for a long time. Newcastle have had it worse than us, they got relegated for fuck's sake but their fans still get called some of the best in the world. Saying that, when our backs are against the wall and we're getting fucked over by the ref etc, Goodison is still by far and away the best place to be!
Kunal (2) - 'Gloom-dison Park'!?
Sorry but that strained, heavy-handed NON-play on words would even get you banned from bluekipper.
(maybe YOU should be renamed - 'Kin'ell!')
Sorry but that strained, heavy-handed NON-play on words would even get you banned from bluekipper.
(maybe YOU should be renamed - 'Kin'ell!')
I think it's the style of our football that causes us to be so downbeat. It's so laboured and lacklustre. Too many of our players stand around, but half the people on here applaud that probably because if they run around giving a damn and working their socks off they get called headless chickens! Half of Man United's players must be headless chickens then, especially that Welbeck after last night's performance!
Rob, GP has been dead for a few years now. Opinions as to why will no doubt pop up in this thread, but the same applies at most other EPL stadiums ? quiet home support put down by the vocal away support.
Fuck it ? Moyes and that wank defensive footy is enough to shut up anybody. We need a winger or a forward who can actually dribble (with the ball), someone who can take the defense on and get GP roaring.
Fuck it ? Moyes and that wank defensive footy is enough to shut up anybody. We need a winger or a forward who can actually dribble (with the ball), someone who can take the defense on and get GP roaring.
We need something to look forward to. A new player would be nice. At the moment we have all had enough of watching the same players year after year. The only thing the fans have to talk about at the moment is the Blue Union & Kenwright. Inevitably the conversation ends with, "We've got no money, no new players, no future etc.' And then it's time to drink up and go to the ground.
The club (and team) needs to help the fans a bit...
#9
Thank you for making me laugh with your winger/forward comment. Laughs have been few and far between here lately.
Thank you for making me laugh with your winger/forward comment. Laughs have been few and far between here lately.
Others can maybe debate the percieved decline of vocal energy post the arrival of all-seater stadia,corporate schmoozing, SKY TV, the rising expense to the average fan etc,but Evertonian support (at HOME) can often be characterised as angry,maudlin, anxious and often downright LAZY. The point of Rob's (valid) question is to ask if we get the performances we deserve. Goodison Park is in the main NOT the forbidding citadel that intimidates opponents as often as we would like it to. The volume gets turned up on Derby day,and predictably (like supporters of ANY club where they play) when Man.Utd rock up .
Both these clubs are of course used to the big atmosphere,so it's effectiveness is not always successful, With smaller teams,or phsycologically-weaker opposition,it could have a profound affect. As a supporter,there is no obligation for you to utter a peep,but in my view,if Evertonians put a little more into it,we COULD affect the game favourably.
This is a pertinent topic that has intrigued me for some time. To that end,and because (like Russ Abbott) I crave more of an atmosphere, I changed my season card from the Park End,to the fabled Lower Gwladys Street-to be nearer to the singers. Not only was it cheaper,but it IS a better buzz. But I wish it was bouncing EVERY week. From the start. The Kop intimidates visiting sides often. The Street End does so occasionally.I strongly believe we SHOULD at least TRY to help our boys more.
Both these clubs are of course used to the big atmosphere,so it's effectiveness is not always successful, With smaller teams,or phsycologically-weaker opposition,it could have a profound affect. As a supporter,there is no obligation for you to utter a peep,but in my view,if Evertonians put a little more into it,we COULD affect the game favourably.
This is a pertinent topic that has intrigued me for some time. To that end,and because (like Russ Abbott) I crave more of an atmosphere, I changed my season card from the Park End,to the fabled Lower Gwladys Street-to be nearer to the singers. Not only was it cheaper,but it IS a better buzz. But I wish it was bouncing EVERY week. From the start. The Kop intimidates visiting sides often. The Street End does so occasionally.I strongly believe we SHOULD at least TRY to help our boys more.
That disgraceful performance and attitude of the players on Saturday made me think of an incident which sums up this crop of players.
In the Villarreal game, with Coleman scythed down in a dreadful tackle which has put him out for months, what was the reaction from the Everton players?
Fuck all, nothing! Letting an opposing player do that to one of our players at Goodison. Total apathy. Where's the fire, the passion, the commitment?
After the Murdoch Empire deciding once again on the choice of government, and the corrupt Fifa organization deciding on the Qatar World Cup, at last some dodgy (possibly dressed in red underwear) so-called Evertonians decided to break our moral code of conduct and get in bed with the low-down tactics of our hated media. The media over paid, over-dressed and with (this post) occasionally used for their original purpose, to speak for a reason rather than shameful tactics...
I am fed up with 11 on a footy pitch putting on a Royal Blue Jersey and talking crap with a football. We have the Best Everton team in years on that pitch and they need to start winning games. The thing is we win and Moyes is the Greatest upcoming manager in the world (ambitious and all that bollocks). We Lose and Kenwright and the club are in Dire straights (It could be worse ? we could be Status Quo?)
My point is fuck the media and the chairman, manager, Coaches! I want to see those players, playing for Everton!!!!! Negativity and disagreement from the supporters at times only gives those not performing excuses.
I would say one thing and one thing only its time start making the PEOPLE HAPPY Lets have a Great season lads. I for One am Getting more frustrated with YOU rather than anyone else. (Except possibly Murdoch s Empire)
ps: It's not about money or rumor or gossip its about winning (With money yeah you do that more often but fuck selling ya soul, Let's just have the points)
Eugene #7 Ok, ok, I was just being sarcastic :)
My point is that noise can boost the team, by the sounds of some of these comments some of you have decided we are already going to play badly so won't sing! How can you not sing outside or before a game when we have not even seen if the players turn up and play, that noise while warming up and coming out will make them up for it more than not.
Besides all this it makes it even more boring to watch when away fans slag you off the whole way throuh and we sit in glum silence,
Besides all this it makes it even more boring to watch when away fans slag you off the whole way throuh and we sit in glum silence,
When any one of our players show the slightest amount of passion the fans are all over it and Goodison get's going. You can count the amount of time this has happened on the fingers of a leper.
The fact is for at least half of every season were served up lucky draws or defeats to sides we should wipe the floor with.
For at least 3 seasons we havent had a chance to look forward to seeing an exciting new player runout.
Our manager has barring one season(last) talked down our chances of doing anything significant for the whole of pre-season and the majority of the fans think were in dire straits and about to go under.
I can't wait to see Goodison rocking and loads of Evertonains in full voice, sadly there hasn't been much to shout about for quite some time.
The fact is for at least half of every season were served up lucky draws or defeats to sides we should wipe the floor with.
For at least 3 seasons we havent had a chance to look forward to seeing an exciting new player runout.
Our manager has barring one season(last) talked down our chances of doing anything significant for the whole of pre-season and the majority of the fans think were in dire straits and about to go under.
I can't wait to see Goodison rocking and loads of Evertonains in full voice, sadly there hasn't been much to shout about for quite some time.
PS away fans always make the most noise, including ours.
There's a notice on the message board for anyone who wants a bit more singing than normal to congregate by getting their Sheff U tickets in the Lower Gwladys Street within NN to PP 098-102.
I thought the atmosphere was pretty good until we walked out and started playing {if playing is the right word} about three seconds in and the first of what seemed like millions of easy passes goes astray, Beckford decides very early on that he's not going to challenge for anything in the air, but we keep pumping it up there anyway, Moyes deciding we're going to defend a 1-0 deficit......need I go on? what the fuck do we have to sing about?
Some of the sarcastic & childish remarks on here do not suprise me, as they merely reflect the weak justification exibited by the consumer fan.
By definition, a supporter is someone who voluntarily ENCOURAGES that which he/she supports. Rather than sitting there glowering at the team, and taking stick from visiting Wool fans, why don't they take a leaf out of Everton's travelling hordes?
Or is it that away support naturally (on a jolly) generate more noise as standard?
However, one depressing theme originating from this thread is that Evertonians can point to instances where The Bearpit HAS aided our players, and influenced the result. The fact that they are statistically few and far between actually vindicates Rob's poser, and rubbishes those who dissent.
By definition, a supporter is someone who voluntarily ENCOURAGES that which he/she supports. Rather than sitting there glowering at the team, and taking stick from visiting Wool fans, why don't they take a leaf out of Everton's travelling hordes?
Or is it that away support naturally (on a jolly) generate more noise as standard?
However, one depressing theme originating from this thread is that Evertonians can point to instances where The Bearpit HAS aided our players, and influenced the result. The fact that they are statistically few and far between actually vindicates Rob's poser, and rubbishes those who dissent.
Rob, i do agree with you to a certain extent, but it is very difficult for the fans to get pumped up when there is virtually nothing to get excited about on the pitch.
All it takes is to see someone winning a couple of 50-50's, someone going on a mazy dribble, just a bit of urgency all over the park would do it. The problem is, there is/was none of that on show half the time ? and particularly on Saturday!
Derek (19),
That's only 15 seats!
That's only 15 seats!
Kevin Hudson, do you actually know what you are talking about? I have been watching the Blues for 47 years, so I believe I do not qualify as a consumer fan.
The noise level is usually generated by an exciting episode during a game; unfortunately nothing exciting happened. A supporter can only encourage a team so much before depression sets in or they fall asleep. ,P. And as for dissent, after all the money I have spent over the years, again I believe I qualify to show dissent after the feeble game I watched.
I know. That's more than enough if you get the right fans in there. That 15 can get those nearby singing, who in turn can get the rest singing and so on.
From a QPR supporters perspective (yes, I am the "best mate" that Rob was talking about), I thought that we were largely outplayed on Saturday.
Even though we won (albeit with a weaker squad....a number of our players had the delhi belly...), the void in ability was clear to see. We couldnt cross the ball or attack down the wings. I even lost count of how many times we passed the ball to death in the middle of the field then had to pass the ball backward to Paddy Kenny.
I think I was the one who made the comment that all fo the noise was coming from the QPR supporters (usually the case with away fans), but the atmosphere from the Toffees was appaling.
You lot moan that you ain't got money, and the pundits say that Everton are limited cos the infrastructure.....but who would want to come and play in a cemetry?! The main reason why Newcastle always attract players even if they are in the wrong end of the season.
Catch you lot in March for the return game at Loftus Road.....and we will hwo you how to rock the party!!!!!
YOU R'sssss!!!!
Even though we won (albeit with a weaker squad....a number of our players had the delhi belly...), the void in ability was clear to see. We couldnt cross the ball or attack down the wings. I even lost count of how many times we passed the ball to death in the middle of the field then had to pass the ball backward to Paddy Kenny.
I think I was the one who made the comment that all fo the noise was coming from the QPR supporters (usually the case with away fans), but the atmosphere from the Toffees was appaling.
You lot moan that you ain't got money, and the pundits say that Everton are limited cos the infrastructure.....but who would want to come and play in a cemetry?! The main reason why Newcastle always attract players even if they are in the wrong end of the season.
Catch you lot in March for the return game at Loftus Road.....and we will hwo you how to rock the party!!!!!
YOU R'sssss!!!!
Qpr got to enjoy it while they can only one year of top flight football and we would part every week swell regardless of the score or performance
Qpr got to enjoy it while they can only one year of top flight football and we would part every week swell regardless of the score or performance
"However, one depressing theme originating from this thread is that Evertonians can point to instances where The Bearpit HAS aided our players, and influenced the result. "
----------------------------
No they can't.
I'd like you to try - TRY - and prove that the amount of noise at a game 'HAS' ever affected the outcome of a game of football...
You can try and surmise... you can even theorise... but you WILL NOT, by any stretch of logic, be able to PROVE that noise from fans 'influenced the result'...
Suggesting otherwise is an affront to empiricism, logic and the fact that you cannot re-run time and repeat the experiment with different parameters.
If you're going to call people 'childish', then try not to base your poorly framed argument on a non-sequitur. That's a good boy...
----------------------------
No they can't.
I'd like you to try - TRY - and prove that the amount of noise at a game 'HAS' ever affected the outcome of a game of football...
You can try and surmise... you can even theorise... but you WILL NOT, by any stretch of logic, be able to PROVE that noise from fans 'influenced the result'...
Suggesting otherwise is an affront to empiricism, logic and the fact that you cannot re-run time and repeat the experiment with different parameters.
If you're going to call people 'childish', then try not to base your poorly framed argument on a non-sequitur. That's a good boy...
"However, one depressing theme originating from this thread is that Evertonians can point to instances where The Bearpit HAS aided our players, and influenced the result. "
----------------------------
No they can't.
I'd like you to try - TRY - and prove that the amount of noise at a game 'HAS' ever affected the outcome of a game of football...
You can try and surmise...you can even theorise...but you WILL NOT, by any stretch of logic - be able to PROVE that noise from fans 'influenced the result'...
Suggesting otherwise is an affront to empiricism, logic and the fact that you cannot re-run time and repeat the experiment with different parameters.
----------------------------
No they can't.
I'd like you to try - TRY - and prove that the amount of noise at a game 'HAS' ever affected the outcome of a game of football...
You can try and surmise...you can even theorise...but you WILL NOT, by any stretch of logic - be able to PROVE that noise from fans 'influenced the result'...
Suggesting otherwise is an affront to empiricism, logic and the fact that you cannot re-run time and repeat the experiment with different parameters.
As many people will know, I'm quite an advocate for fans getting behind the team, but even I can understand why fans weren't singing. QPR fans weren't even that loud compared to the likes of West Ham, Villa and Chelsea in the cup at our place. I'd say occasion, alcohol and whats going on the pitch plays a huge part.
For example I went to all 3 games against Chelsea in the 2008-09 season: the first game at GP both fans were very loud and it ended in a 0-0 draw; the 2nd game at Stamford Bridge was 0-0 and again both fans were pretty loud because it was and even game; at the FA Cup final on the other hand our fans were unbelieveable and their support was pathetic. The reason I believe for this is Chelsea fans had already been to 3 major finals in the last seasons; we'd waited 14 years.
When the team coach arrived, there were 5,000 Everton fans greeting it and 0 Chelsea fans for theirs. Even after the game, we outsung them. Take last season for example our fans were pitiful in the first game at GP and their 2900 fans easily outsung us. But when we went to the replay we had 6000 fans all urging the team on to victory and we outsung them.
It's simple - it's because we're Everton.
Stoke is raucous because every week they win the Champions League - that's what being in the Prem feels to them - Pompey were the same.
Being the 4th most decorated club in English football who have been in the top division the longest it's small beer to us - unless you're kenwright or Moyes - they think it's winning the CL, twats.
Stoke is raucous because every week they win the Champions League - that's what being in the Prem feels to them - Pompey were the same.
Being the 4th most decorated club in English football who have been in the top division the longest it's small beer to us - unless you're kenwright or Moyes - they think it's winning the CL, twats.
Rob, maybe the regular song that gets addressed to opposition "You only sing when your winning" may apply in our case to "To if your playing well"
Wait till the gates drop to 20000 a game then Billy Liar will finally have succeeded in destroying the club.
None of the uusal pre-game Everton songs were played in the run up to Z-Cars, instead it was rock music played pretty loud - I wondered if this was because the club were expecting "sack the board" chants.
Once Z-Cars had finished the players were warmly greeted and a bit of singing went on for about 5-10mins. After that it was pretty much silent. I myself felt that unless there was an injustice the crowd stayed quiet last season.
The quality of football on show was atrocious on Saturday. From the 50th to 95th minute we never looked like getting back in the game.
Once Z-Cars had finished the players were warmly greeted and a bit of singing went on for about 5-10mins. After that it was pretty much silent. I myself felt that unless there was an injustice the crowd stayed quiet last season.
The quality of football on show was atrocious on Saturday. From the 50th to 95th minute we never looked like getting back in the game.
Yes we could get behind the team more and create a better atmosphere. The off the pitch troubles though are creating such a negativity its really hard to get motivated at the moment.
It seems like Bamber Gascoigne's back on the case..(27)
"You will NOT,by any stretch of logic-be able to PROVE that noise from fans influenced the result."
Sure..
"An affront to empiricism," you say?
What a balloon.
"You will NOT,by any stretch of logic-be able to PROVE that noise from fans influenced the result."
Sure..
"An affront to empiricism," you say?
What a balloon.
Best Fans home and Away - Portsmouth, whatever division they are playing in.
Goodison Park has been dead for a while now but it is becoming increasingly embarrassing as pointed out in the original post.
When we are on top of things it is better but we/most/some/ a few/all.. think we are too big a club to get excited about playing anyone except the current big 6. The team are expected to beat everyone else with no help from us. I think that's wrong.
The team has to help to get the old atmosphere back and a good start would be to start scoring some effing goals!
Goodison Park has been dead for a while now but it is becoming increasingly embarrassing as pointed out in the original post.
When we are on top of things it is better but we/most/some/ a few/all.. think we are too big a club to get excited about playing anyone except the current big 6. The team are expected to beat everyone else with no help from us. I think that's wrong.
The team has to help to get the old atmosphere back and a good start would be to start scoring some effing goals!
I live in the USA just outside of Philadelphia. Philly fans have a reputation of getting quite boisterous. We have 5 major sports teams (baseball, hockey, football (american), basketball, and football) all of those teams have a massive statistical advantage at home. Opposing teams are scared to death to come to Philly and they're not comfortable here at all.
It's not about cheering on Everton as much as it is about making making the other team want to crap their pants. If, on Wednesday, Sheffield comes to Goodison and looks up at the sight of 40,000 psychos singing at the top of their lungs, they're going to be scared and Everton will have an advantage.
It's not about cheering on Everton as much as it is about making making the other team want to crap their pants. If, on Wednesday, Sheffield comes to Goodison and looks up at the sight of 40,000 psychos singing at the top of their lungs, they're going to be scared and Everton will have an advantage.
To clarify that last post. I'm not saying to threaten physical harm in any way. Just intimidate them into not playing well.
The reality of the situation is Evertonians respond to good football and adversity.
One or the other comes along and it's the Bear Pit. Sadly we've only really see adversity these past few seasons, with fleeting glimpses of football.
Thats nothing to be embarrassed about.
Singing your head off for a throw on the half way line's a bit pantomime TBH.
One or the other comes along and it's the Bear Pit. Sadly we've only really see adversity these past few seasons, with fleeting glimpses of football.
Thats nothing to be embarrassed about.
Singing your head off for a throw on the half way line's a bit pantomime TBH.
Disagree, give us something to cheer about and we'll cheer. A couple of seasons ago the football was great, and the old ground was rockin' when we beat man U, Citteh , chelsea and even Sunderland. It's practically impossible to get excited these days
Kevin Hudson#21
Couldnt agree more.
Couldnt agree more.
First game of the season and we should have been up for it. The crowd was as big a disappointment as the players. The whole club and fanbase has a glum feeling about it at the moment. We need some spark. Who knows where that will come from though.
Rochdale beating QPR 1 nil. Sums it up hey? Wonder if the QPR fans are shouting their head off. Its all about the players and their attitude- then the fans will respond. If I was paid the fortune some of these players are then I would run thru a brick wall. Name a player on Saturday who would have done that.
I despair where it will all end
I despair where it will all end
The atmosphere at Goodison can be intimidating and raucous at times but something is obviously needed to light the fuse. The fact that the crowd is in such close proximity to the pitch means the opposition can hear all the vitriolic abuse and cunt-calling (hello Mr Carragher) coming their way.
At the start of every game, the fans are right behind the team but it usually only takes about 5 mins for everyone to release that they are set to be subjected to the same old shit once again. If the players are subdued and passionless then this obviously sets the tone.
As for non-stop singing, scarf waving and such like? It's never really been a feature at Goodison during my time going the game and I never really understand how singing equals 'atmosphere' but, then again, I'm a miserable, moaning twat and I act accordingly!
At the start of every game, the fans are right behind the team but it usually only takes about 5 mins for everyone to release that they are set to be subjected to the same old shit once again. If the players are subdued and passionless then this obviously sets the tone.
As for non-stop singing, scarf waving and such like? It's never really been a feature at Goodison during my time going the game and I never really understand how singing equals 'atmosphere' but, then again, I'm a miserable, moaning twat and I act accordingly!
John Daley,
"If the players are subdued and passionless then this obviously sets the tone."
Do you not think by equal measure,that if the fans are subdued and passionless,then this too sets a (negative) tone?
Two-way street?
"If the players are subdued and passionless then this obviously sets the tone."
Do you not think by equal measure,that if the fans are subdued and passionless,then this too sets a (negative) tone?
Two-way street?
I was disappointed with the atmosphere on Saturday. The pubs, forums etc have been buzzing with the recent developments, and I was expecting a lively and hostile reaction from the supporters.
And WTF, only a strangled boooo when Kenwright appeared on the big screen, and I even missed that opportunity.
I wish I had the bollocks to get up off my arse and start a chant, but I'm a shithouse, who takes solace in the fact no one around me is singing and keep reminding myself that the old chap behind me doesn't like me standing up and obstructing his view.
Maybe next game
And WTF, only a strangled boooo when Kenwright appeared on the big screen, and I even missed that opportunity.
I wish I had the bollocks to get up off my arse and start a chant, but I'm a shithouse, who takes solace in the fact no one around me is singing and keep reminding myself that the old chap behind me doesn't like me standing up and obstructing his view.
Maybe next game
Editor's Note: Shaun posted this as a fresh mailbag item... it's like he hasn't seen this thread but here is where it belongs:
I'm 22 years old and I have had a season ticket since I was 7; I've managed to scrape the penny jar to see my beloved Everton again this season.
I'm 22 years old and I have had a season ticket since I was 7; I've managed to scrape the penny jar to see my beloved Everton again this season.
Without stating the obvious, I know the lack of transfers and the general obscurity of our club's finances is getting everyone down (hence why I thought I was sitting was sitting in a library on a few occasions on Saturday) but surely a bit of singing and less negativity will rub off onto the players on the pitch? Although Moyes comments about us struggling to reach the top 10 probably didn?t help.
For the first time last weekend after the QPR game, I watched the Everton v Bayern Munich Cup Winners Cup game. The reason I have never watched it is that I have always wanted to watch Everton win a major cup in person (and not live in the past), just like my father has on several occasions with my uncle and my grandfather. The closest I have got to this is the FA Cup Final in 2009 (aside from 1995 when I don?t even know where I was at the time). So I thought to myself, looks like this will never happen; I might as well watch the game.
What I noticed from that game is that the atmosphere was electric; I haven?t come across an atmosphere like that at any Everton game but it always seems that when the fans do get behind the players they give it a go, probably my most recent memory a home game when the fans actually sang throughout and gave it their all is when Dan Gosling scored the goal against Liverpool, and that day we were the underdogs in my opinion. The only time I have noticed that the atmosphere has not worked in our favour is against Villarreal, but that was more than likely because of them being superior to us.
Surely a bit of atmosphere at the game would benefit a little, Saturday afternoons seem more of a chore to our fans. Does no-one enjoy singing for their club any more?
What I want to know is why has the atmosphere changed so drastically? Is it due to the lack of success or the instability?
Welcome to Goodison Park. We go to games and until we get the first goal we sit on tenterhooks. Then we roar and shout and scream in jubilation until the next time the opposition get good possession and then its back to tenterhooks until we score again or the final whistle. We live and breath whats out on the pitch, every kick every tackle and every nailbiting attack from the opposition. So to be honest if the atmosphere wasn't up to much you can bet that the football wasn't either.
Des Kenny,
"Do I know what I'm talking about?"
Do you know what it is you're reading?
Perhaps my premise was lost on you. I'm simply encouraging fellow Blues to GET BEHIND the team more.
That's all.
I've seen the atmosphere depreciate over the 29 years I've been a season ticket holder, and suggested reasons why that could be.
When I referred to the "consumer fan," I'm simply citing a certain type of mentality. Older hands like yourself are NOT implicated in this culture,and I would have thought that fairly obvious..
Eg: "Where were you when you were shit?" A frequent taunt to the modern Chelsea fan.
You go on: "A supporter can only support so much before depression sets in,or they fall asleep."
Depression?!
Dude, If a football match DEPRESSES you or makes you FALL ASLEEP,all I can say is you must either sit in the Bullens,(!) or you need to see your GP. Then stop going.
You picked up on my use of the word "dissent," and misconstrued it.. I was referring to those who dissent to Rob's original argument, NOT supporters barracking players. Go back and re-read before jumping in.
"Do I know what I'm talking about?"
Do you know what it is you're reading?
Perhaps my premise was lost on you. I'm simply encouraging fellow Blues to GET BEHIND the team more.
That's all.
I've seen the atmosphere depreciate over the 29 years I've been a season ticket holder, and suggested reasons why that could be.
When I referred to the "consumer fan," I'm simply citing a certain type of mentality. Older hands like yourself are NOT implicated in this culture,and I would have thought that fairly obvious..
Eg: "Where were you when you were shit?" A frequent taunt to the modern Chelsea fan.
You go on: "A supporter can only support so much before depression sets in,or they fall asleep."
Depression?!
Dude, If a football match DEPRESSES you or makes you FALL ASLEEP,all I can say is you must either sit in the Bullens,(!) or you need to see your GP. Then stop going.
You picked up on my use of the word "dissent," and misconstrued it.. I was referring to those who dissent to Rob's original argument, NOT supporters barracking players. Go back and re-read before jumping in.
Ciaran Mcglone,
It appears that my earlier rebuttal to you is slightly out of sync, Ie: It was NOT directed at poster 27. This is down to the fact that your submission has to be VETTED before publication,(!) and hence appeared (with additional carping) later on.
My comments were fairly straight forward. I'm encouraging fellow Blues to get behind the team more. It is NOT an argument-just a simple appeal.
It is YOU who WANTS to argue.
You want to debate something which, by your own admission, is a purely theoretical, perception issue. Fine. So why go all Seven Of Nine on me,getting all logical and prissy? Citing "affrontery," intuiting Francis Bacon's "empiricism,",claiming "non-sequiturs," and talking about "parameters,"had me wondering if we were still talking about Everton,or living in the Age Of Reason..
Despite your pedancy,however, there was one gaping & self-defeating line where you informed me that we cannot travel back through time. Now I know that Dr Michio Kaku believes that whilst theoretically it IS possible,it isn't happening any time (!) soon.
Which means that whilst I cannot PROVE that Evertonians helped the team defeat Bayern Munich in 85',even though I was there & remember what it was like, YOU cannot prove that we didn't help!
Thereby making the argument you seek totally redundant.
It is subjective perception based on experience,I have rarely heard a footballer interviewed after a rousing win in front of a boisterous crowd, NOT acknowledge the support.,so unless they're all liars,I'll take my Gwladys Street seat perception over your Ulster armchair,any day.
It appears that my earlier rebuttal to you is slightly out of sync, Ie: It was NOT directed at poster 27. This is down to the fact that your submission has to be VETTED before publication,(!) and hence appeared (with additional carping) later on.
My comments were fairly straight forward. I'm encouraging fellow Blues to get behind the team more. It is NOT an argument-just a simple appeal.
It is YOU who WANTS to argue.
You want to debate something which, by your own admission, is a purely theoretical, perception issue. Fine. So why go all Seven Of Nine on me,getting all logical and prissy? Citing "affrontery," intuiting Francis Bacon's "empiricism,",claiming "non-sequiturs," and talking about "parameters,"had me wondering if we were still talking about Everton,or living in the Age Of Reason..
Despite your pedancy,however, there was one gaping & self-defeating line where you informed me that we cannot travel back through time. Now I know that Dr Michio Kaku believes that whilst theoretically it IS possible,it isn't happening any time (!) soon.
Which means that whilst I cannot PROVE that Evertonians helped the team defeat Bayern Munich in 85',even though I was there & remember what it was like, YOU cannot prove that we didn't help!
Thereby making the argument you seek totally redundant.
It is subjective perception based on experience,I have rarely heard a footballer interviewed after a rousing win in front of a boisterous crowd, NOT acknowledge the support.,so unless they're all liars,I'll take my Gwladys Street seat perception over your Ulster armchair,any day.
Kevin you seem to have confused verbosity with a good argument. I've been going to Goodison for 4 decades and the fans will always respond to whats on show or if the match is of consequence. Marry that to whats going on at the club and has been for the last decade and you get an apathy thats tangible.
Like most things in life there is no simple one component answer its usually a case of cumulative actions having consequences. My view on the lack of volume at Goodison is that the football on show is dire, it has been for a while and this has been the proverbial straw to break the camel's back. How often now do the fans get louder if Everton score having been quiet as a church mouse beforehand then quieten again when the opposition builds up a serious threat to equalising? It's even worse when the opposition scores first as at most I suspect Moyes will then play for an "amazing draw" if he can and if we get a draw you here relief and I leave the ground feeling thoroughly pissed off and robbed of entertainment and that my team and manager has let me down.
Like most things in life there is no simple one component answer its usually a case of cumulative actions having consequences. My view on the lack of volume at Goodison is that the football on show is dire, it has been for a while and this has been the proverbial straw to break the camel's back. How often now do the fans get louder if Everton score having been quiet as a church mouse beforehand then quieten again when the opposition builds up a serious threat to equalising? It's even worse when the opposition scores first as at most I suspect Moyes will then play for an "amazing draw" if he can and if we get a draw you here relief and I leave the ground feeling thoroughly pissed off and robbed of entertainment and that my team and manager has let me down.
Gavin,
I'm fully aware of the fluctuations of a given football match,and the knock-on affect on atmosphere. I'm saying that perhaps we could try harder as supporters,even to lift the team, if the football is dire,or they're struggling,rather than simply sitting there waiting to be entertained. Hardly a revolutionary idea I would have thought.
The original poster (Rob) was inviting us to look at ourselves, I just happened to agree with him,believing we could do more to motivate the players.
I'm fully aware of the fluctuations of a given football match,and the knock-on affect on atmosphere. I'm saying that perhaps we could try harder as supporters,even to lift the team, if the football is dire,or they're struggling,rather than simply sitting there waiting to be entertained. Hardly a revolutionary idea I would have thought.
The original poster (Rob) was inviting us to look at ourselves, I just happened to agree with him,believing we could do more to motivate the players.
Kevin the argument has been made before and failed, unfortunately the post is fundamentally flawed as its aimed solely at the visitors to this website. Even if you could get a groundswell of opinion here and every single match going member to line up and say lets do it, the cumulative effect would be negligible on a match day as the majority of fans dont use this website.
Human nature would imply even getting an agreement amongst the fraternity of TW would be nigh on impossible. You can sway certain opinions in people but you'll be hard pushed to change ingrained nature.
Human nature would imply even getting an agreement amongst the fraternity of TW would be nigh on impossible. You can sway certain opinions in people but you'll be hard pushed to change ingrained nature.
Correction to post 55:
I stated that I've been a season ticket holder for 29 years. In fact it's NINE years. It was, however, my brother's 29th birthday yesterday, hence that number was on my brain!!
Again, to those who dissagree with my belief that increased vocal support helps players, and that we should do more to help, fine... just an idea. I'm not asking you all to join me on the Mothership..!!
I stated that I've been a season ticket holder for 29 years. In fact it's NINE years. It was, however, my brother's 29th birthday yesterday, hence that number was on my brain!!
Again, to those who dissagree with my belief that increased vocal support helps players, and that we should do more to help, fine... just an idea. I'm not asking you all to join me on the Mothership..!!
"and influenced the result. "
---------------------------
Seems rather straight forward to me Mr Hudson... although I appreciate you've since moved away from this rather stupid argument.
Read Stephen Kenny's post at #45. He gets it right. You got it wrong.
---------------------------
Seems rather straight forward to me Mr Hudson... although I appreciate you've since moved away from this rather stupid argument.
Read Stephen Kenny's post at #45. He gets it right. You got it wrong.
Yes it was the fans fault we lost and not the prima donnas on 75 grand a week who can't kick a ball over a wall or in some cases to a team mate. Idiot!!!!!!!!
Shit football equals shit atmosphere.
Shit effort and commitment to the cause equals shit atmosphere.
Throw us a few scraps and you may see a bit of an atmosphere returning.
Shit effort and commitment to the cause equals shit atmosphere.
Throw us a few scraps and you may see a bit of an atmosphere returning.
Short version (??)
Zombie Football gives you Zombie Fans (??)
Zombie Football gives you Zombie Fans (??)
Regarding the atmosphere during the QPR game on Saturday.
I found myself pondering, is it possible to ride around on the back of a giraffe, given that it resembles a long-necked horse - or would its legs be too feeble?
Hope this is not off topic.
I found myself pondering, is it possible to ride around on the back of a giraffe, given that it resembles a long-necked horse - or would its legs be too feeble?
Hope this is not off topic.
The up side of Everton playing so badly is reading all the comments on this site, such passion for A GREAT FOOTBALL CLUB. The only way change will take place is to stay away.
Ciaran McGlone
Dave Hickson once said that hearing the Gwladys Street sing his name made him feel ten feet tall.
Football is a game where confidence can make or break a player in a game.
I would expect that Sports psychologists could back that up with some sort of evidence, would you accept that without me having to look at the books in the library and analysing their methods?
Therefore, I would like to put that forward as an argument that singing can affect the outcome of a match, it is a game that is often defined by moments of inspiration or bravery.
Dave Hickson once said that hearing the Gwladys Street sing his name made him feel ten feet tall.
Football is a game where confidence can make or break a player in a game.
I would expect that Sports psychologists could back that up with some sort of evidence, would you accept that without me having to look at the books in the library and analysing their methods?
Therefore, I would like to put that forward as an argument that singing can affect the outcome of a match, it is a game that is often defined by moments of inspiration or bravery.
Ciaran McGlone
Dave Hickson once said that hearing the Gwladys Street sing his name made him feel ten feet tall.
Football is a game where confidence can make or break a player in a game.
I would expect that Sports psychologists could back that up with some sort of evidence, would you accept that without me having to look at the books in the library and analysing their methods?
Therefore, I would like to put that forward as an argument that singing can affect the outcome of a match, it is a game that is often defined by moments of inspiration or bravery.
Dave Hickson once said that hearing the Gwladys Street sing his name made him feel ten feet tall.
Football is a game where confidence can make or break a player in a game.
I would expect that Sports psychologists could back that up with some sort of evidence, would you accept that without me having to look at the books in the library and analysing their methods?
Therefore, I would like to put that forward as an argument that singing can affect the outcome of a match, it is a game that is often defined by moments of inspiration or bravery.
Derek, I can see where you are coming from, but no amount of singing what have made a difference to Cahill inexplicably heading wide from 2 yards. That wasn't because it was quiet, it was because he had a stinker of a game all match.
Derek you could also point out that theres no reciprocation from the pitch, not one of the players looked into the crowd demanding we got up for them and they've done that in the past. The players against QPR with very few exceptions looked like they simply couldn't be arsed. We pay good money to watch that and then get a piss poor not even half hearted display and you'll get the morgue, I said on an earlier post after the game itself that its a bloody good job the cushions have gone as you wouldn't have seen the pitch for them.
Still waters run deep.
Ciaran what a load of nonsense considering and your name suggests your Irish Catholic. As you will know, music has played a huge part in Irish culture and got people through the miserable times in life. What about all the civil rights marches that happened in NI in the 60s and 70s that lifited peoples spirits?
Also NI and ROI have great home records yet shit away records... to me, that's to do with their excellent home support. Take a look at when Manchester United went to Galatasray in 1993 and lost effectively due to the fact they intimidated United. Look at Fiorentina at home ? what an atmosphere if you were there you'd agree that it helped the team. Look at Celtics record in the Champions League at Parkhead it's amazing.
Never have I felt so much pride at Evertonian performance at Wembley. You can't argue that the fans' support gave the players a huge lift. Our fans were amazing at Wembley in the 2 games and it was a real source of pride to me. Hearing Evertonian voices still ringing out after the match.
Derek,
I am taking issue with Mr Hudson's daft suggestion that the level of noise on its own 'HAS', I repeat ? HAS ? affected the outcome of a game of football.
He is stating that as a matter of fact. It simply isn't ? otherwise we'd win every Goodison Derby 10-0.
I have no problem with the idea that the crowd can have a influence on players ? and an influence that is part of a highly complex set of factors that can affect the outcome of any given game. But that's not what Mr Hudson was stating... his original position is quite clear, no matter how much he swerves.
I am taking issue with Mr Hudson's daft suggestion that the level of noise on its own 'HAS', I repeat ? HAS ? affected the outcome of a game of football.
He is stating that as a matter of fact. It simply isn't ? otherwise we'd win every Goodison Derby 10-0.
I have no problem with the idea that the crowd can have a influence on players ? and an influence that is part of a highly complex set of factors that can affect the outcome of any given game. But that's not what Mr Hudson was stating... his original position is quite clear, no matter how much he swerves.
Ciaran,
So you basically came back to tell me that my theory is "stupid."
Despite already conceding that since time travel hasn't been invented,both of our differing slants are IMPOSSIBLE to verify.
Smart move. It begs an obvious question.. Why bother in the first place?
Was it just so you could sign off with a creepy,and laptop-warrior like "that's a good boy?" Would you talk that way to my face, considering you've never met me?
Were you attempting to mask a petty desire to argue a philosophical impasse to such trivial detail,that you deliberately employed such sophisticated language to disguise a needless irritation with perspective?
Like The Viz's "Mr Logic."
Couple of polite,yet hopefully pertinent questions:
Do you NOT believe that the Goodison crowd has EVER helped the players perform better? NEVER influenced a result?
Then I ask you: Why be a supporter at all?! Why visit ToffeeWeb if you don't support Everton? What IS a supporter?
Do you treat EFC with the indifference you would a movie,and not particularly care about the outcome? Have you ever visited Goodison Park,and were you entirely mute the whole time? Did you sing,cheer,appeal,exhort? If so,why, if not to effect change?
Doesn't have to be scientific-it's only football.
So you basically came back to tell me that my theory is "stupid."
Despite already conceding that since time travel hasn't been invented,both of our differing slants are IMPOSSIBLE to verify.
Smart move. It begs an obvious question.. Why bother in the first place?
Was it just so you could sign off with a creepy,and laptop-warrior like "that's a good boy?" Would you talk that way to my face, considering you've never met me?
Were you attempting to mask a petty desire to argue a philosophical impasse to such trivial detail,that you deliberately employed such sophisticated language to disguise a needless irritation with perspective?
Like The Viz's "Mr Logic."
Couple of polite,yet hopefully pertinent questions:
Do you NOT believe that the Goodison crowd has EVER helped the players perform better? NEVER influenced a result?
Then I ask you: Why be a supporter at all?! Why visit ToffeeWeb if you don't support Everton? What IS a supporter?
Do you treat EFC with the indifference you would a movie,and not particularly care about the outcome? Have you ever visited Goodison Park,and were you entirely mute the whole time? Did you sing,cheer,appeal,exhort? If so,why, if not to effect change?
Doesn't have to be scientific-it's only football.
The crowd may not have a bearing on the outcome or result.
It has been proven however, the crowd does have an impact on the ref's decisions for free kicks & bookings etc. Especially in the larger stadiums.
It has been proven however, the crowd does have an impact on the ref's decisions for free kicks & bookings etc. Especially in the larger stadiums.
Mark Wayman @39
"None of the usual pre-game Everton songs were played in the run up to Z-Cars, instead it was rock music played pretty loud ? I wondered if this was because the club were expecting 'Sack the board' chants."
We wondered something similar. The music is often too loud, especially for an old fart like me who prefers to discuss the forthcoming match, but Saturday was ridiculous. You would have been deafened if you had ears of cloth and the only reason we could think of was to drown out any hint of rebellion from the crowd.
For years different players and managers have declared that the fans getting behind the team helps them to raise their game so it's pretty obvious that it will have an effect on the result, despite what some posters are trying to say on here. Two quotes from Kendall ? one about the Gwladys St sucking the ball in and the occasion when he opened the dressing room window so the team could hear the Blues fans singing and declared that "There's your team talk" ? prove, to me anyway, that the atmosphere must have an effect on the players.
"None of the usual pre-game Everton songs were played in the run up to Z-Cars, instead it was rock music played pretty loud ? I wondered if this was because the club were expecting 'Sack the board' chants."
We wondered something similar. The music is often too loud, especially for an old fart like me who prefers to discuss the forthcoming match, but Saturday was ridiculous. You would have been deafened if you had ears of cloth and the only reason we could think of was to drown out any hint of rebellion from the crowd.
For years different players and managers have declared that the fans getting behind the team helps them to raise their game so it's pretty obvious that it will have an effect on the result, despite what some posters are trying to say on here. Two quotes from Kendall ? one about the Gwladys St sucking the ball in and the occasion when he opened the dressing room window so the team could hear the Blues fans singing and declared that "There's your team talk" ? prove, to me anyway, that the atmosphere must have an effect on the players.
Stop bullshitting Ciaran,
I did NOT use the phrase: " Noise...ON IT'S OWN," has influenced matches.
You made that part up yourself.
I have no problem with the idea that the crowd can have an influence on players."
That is BASICALLY all I meant. Surely you could extrapolate that?
Instead my semantics came in for forensic & microscopic scrutiny. Unclench. Breathe.
I did NOT use the phrase: " Noise...ON IT'S OWN," has influenced matches.
You made that part up yourself.
I have no problem with the idea that the crowd can have an influence on players."
That is BASICALLY all I meant. Surely you could extrapolate that?
Instead my semantics came in for forensic & microscopic scrutiny. Unclench. Breathe.
Kevin,
You appear to be employing a rather typically daft tactic. I don't have a slant to either prove or disprove. You stated a fact. I called it as bollocks.
That will not change whether you Google some irrelevant clap trap of time travel or not.
And yes, I do reserve a degree of condescension for those who talk shite ? whether they're in front of me, or not. So yes, I probably would say that to your face.
Chris Butler, You're missing the point ? in a big way.
You appear to be employing a rather typically daft tactic. I don't have a slant to either prove or disprove. You stated a fact. I called it as bollocks.
That will not change whether you Google some irrelevant clap trap of time travel or not.
And yes, I do reserve a degree of condescension for those who talk shite ? whether they're in front of me, or not. So yes, I probably would say that to your face.
Chris Butler, You're missing the point ? in a big way.
Derek Turnbull, & Ray Roche - spot on.
Football can generate a whole range of unscientific,but none the less tangible emotions, feelings,perceptions,beliefs & even superstitions. May not be FACTUAL,but we're not exactly searching for the cure for cancer here. "Yer man," there wants CSI Goodison..!!
Kendall opening the dressing room window-hearing the noise of the crows,and saying "There's your team talk."- wonderful! Sums it up.
Out for a few sherbets,and then to support the Blue Boys at the Old Lady..COYB!!
Football can generate a whole range of unscientific,but none the less tangible emotions, feelings,perceptions,beliefs & even superstitions. May not be FACTUAL,but we're not exactly searching for the cure for cancer here. "Yer man," there wants CSI Goodison..!!
Kendall opening the dressing room window-hearing the noise of the crows,and saying "There's your team talk."- wonderful! Sums it up.
Out for a few sherbets,and then to support the Blue Boys at the Old Lady..COYB!!
Kevin...it was the noise of the "crowd".
The noise wasn't big black birds that shit on yer washing.
And I don't mean Naomi Cambpell.
The noise wasn't big black birds that shit on yer washing.
And I don't mean Naomi Cambpell.
Repetitive nit-picking.
I said: The Bearpit has aided our players,and influenced the result."
You said: "I have no problem with the idea that the crowd can have an influence on the players."
These comments are distinct,but not a MILLION miles away from each other. For instance,the crowd can have an influence on the players-but this may not influence the result.
On the other hand,theoretically it could. Could it be factually proved? No.
I said: The Bearpit has aided our players,and influenced the result."
You said: "I have no problem with the idea that the crowd can have an influence on the players."
These comments are distinct,but not a MILLION miles away from each other. For instance,the crowd can have an influence on the players-but this may not influence the result.
On the other hand,theoretically it could. Could it be factually proved? No.
..So it seems your mountain-out-of-a-molehill fixation on the fact I did not add a caveat: "My belief," pernickety.
You POUNCED on this
And insisted upon dragging it out.
I never once asked you for agreement, I patiently outlined my perspective,but since you deliberately ignored both this,AND the questions asked of you,there's no point in challenging your literal & snippy interpretation of my own mind, continue to rise to your bait, or your attempt to overplay & misquote me.
If we were driving at the Grand Unified Theory, I would understand your dedication to minutae. You KNOW this is trivial crap. Done.
Work on your game more.
You POUNCED on this
And insisted upon dragging it out.
I never once asked you for agreement, I patiently outlined my perspective,but since you deliberately ignored both this,AND the questions asked of you,there's no point in challenging your literal & snippy interpretation of my own mind, continue to rise to your bait, or your attempt to overplay & misquote me.
If we were driving at the Grand Unified Theory, I would understand your dedication to minutae. You KNOW this is trivial crap. Done.
Work on your game more.
Booooooozinga.
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