Neville ponders Everton future

As they say in Oz, 'On yer' Phil, you old bastard.

You missed out the word 'bike.'

Personally, I`d say `Thank you and goodnight` — but then, I`ve never been one of his greatest admirers.

If Moyes goes, which is looking more likely by the day, you can see these dopes appointing most of this team as a replacement, a recipe for disaster. We need a respected manager with new ideas — ex-players with no managerial experience won't work.

If we are prepared to spend the equivalent of Moyes's salary, we can attract a top class manager.

Not sure about Jags having the armband. He's a fantastic centre back who gives everything and leads by example but he is also a very nice bloke. Too nice and too forgiving. However, he will get the job because the only alternative is a walking sicknote. The "Roy K" of our midfield,Darren Gibson. Watching him tear into a terrified Leighton Baines after our hero had made an almighty defensive cock-up was very reminiscent of one of the greatest captains I have ever seen. Probably has the same accent too.

What I would like to know is how many posters on here would be happy with Neville or Ferguson as manager.

Kevin, I'm with you all the way on this. Excellent post.

I want Moyes to leave at the end of the season; also, because I've always thought Neville is a shit footballer and is holding back the younger players, I'm hoping there will be no contract extension. He's hinting to it... now he just has to do it – the decent thing, that is!

Reading Pip's quotes was honestly like a game of tennis. One line I'm saying "Good stuff, Skip. Truly super stuff." The next lines is more like, "For fuck's sake, you are oblivious to your own short comings!" Then back again.

I guess all things being equal, the stats really do support his inclusion in the team. The question is, are we winning despite his presence, or because of it? I'd support him for another year if he was playing RB only.

If he ever becomes manager, he would need to be a bit more ruthless and inspirational than what he is as a player.

Positives: he has worked under two of the best mangers in the world.

Negatives: he is Phillip Neville for fuck sake!

Jags for Captain, that would be step forward.

Yes, he makes bad decisions here and there, as all managers do, but you must have amnesia or would you really prefer Walter Smith, Mike Walker et al? Liverpool have shite managers year after year and the fans still love them and yet we have a great manager that Evertonians resent, maybe some of our fans got more of a kick out of avoiding relegation each year than narrowly missing out on Europe.

As for this thread, give Neville another year for cover in MF and RB but make Jags captain.

Working and playing exclusively under SAF and Moysie (albeit with different degrees of success) and given his professionalism, personal demeanour, reputation, media awareness and having already achieved the pre-requisite coaching badge contribute to him being a shoo-in.

Dont get confused with whether you agree with him currently playing in midfield or right-back. He is a class act.

Also, why do we have some lads on here who always feel they have to come out with the 'Walter Smith, Mike Walker' shite?

Good football teams don't consist of 11 Messis; someone has to lead and someone has to do the dirty work. Fortunately we have a manager that recognises this and that's why we enjoy the moderate success that we despite our very very limited finances.

Generally the best mangers find work in either England, Spain or Italy and, in a world where managers get no time, Moyes has worked wonders, been here for over a decade and elevated us 10 places in the league with no financial backing.

Not sure what your definition of a great manager is but that meets mine.

SAF is a great manager but when you can spunk $24M on Van Persie pre-season it makes it that little bit easier doesn't it?

Referencing Smith, Walker etc isn't shite because some Evertonians are so braindead they can't seem to recall where we were before Moyes came in.

Not a single one of us is prepared to press the button for PJN (though someone will now after this post).

Choice phrase of 2013 so far? "If I had a drop in form..." (PJN)

In an ideal world, sideways Phil would not be in an Everton starting eleven.

It's not just that Moyes took over a shitty team from a shitty manager — he has spent pretty much nothing and we are 10 (ish) places above after 10 seasons. I think that Moyes's own record is pretty good.

Whether he needs to win his spurs at a lower league level is another issue. How many footballing 'greats' succeeded in management? How many caps did Mourinho win?

Not sure why you're hanging onto the Walter Smith point as that was only a small comparison that I used and if that's the whole purpose of your post then its a bit boring. Maybe Smith wasn't a shitty manager for Rangers but he finished 14th, 13th, 16th, 16th in 4 league seasons with us.

I love it when people say about playing bad football as if it's somehow a reflection of the manager. Given the relative resources, if Stoke tried to play like Arsenal each week they would unlikely still be in the Premier League. We managed to finish 4th with a minus goal difference but it was a great season.

If your sole purpose of supporting Everton is to be entertained, you should've given up long ago.

My overriding point is that Moyes has done a great job and has to be up there with the very best in the league – why you nitpick the peripheral comments is beyond me. So I looked into it a bit further and if this article is correct then up until recently Moyes had a net spend of £1.39mil a season. If you think that's spending money, given that squad's age and players depreciate, then you're on a different planet or you're just pedantic to the extreme.

http://www.ftbpro.com/posts/the.unsilent.minority/73194/david-moyes-wonders-on-a-shoestring-merely-a-cliche

I know Pip has impressive stats for his whole Everton career, but I thought it had been much more even this season.

That is still not what you would call a bad record but it does suggest his influence on the pitch is on the wane, which he pretty much alludes to in the OP.

This is telling. If you're asking yourself this then there's a birdie in the back of your mind telling you your starting to struggle, AND your motivation isn't where it needs to be. He's done.

If it were: mentally I'm fine, I've just got to be sure I'm physically up to it (ie Mark Webber) then that's fair enough.

In last season's 4 - 4 game against Man Utd, he was instrumental in the two last goals, especially his piercing ball through to Fellaini for the equaliser was class. I think he is past his best now and should concentrate on his coaching career and, you never know he might just pop up again at Goodison.

I love this "If he could have spent £24M on Van Persie" bullshit. The apologists continue to use this type of comment without entertaining the idea that some managers get to spend that money BECAUSE they're good managers. In the last six years Chelsea have had how many managers? Nearly half a league's worth. Man City have had four. Newcastle, three. Even the big Italian clubs have young, unknown managers now. How many of these big jobs has Moyes been asked to have a crack at?

The net spend is a crock too, because we have actually managed to sell quite a few players at a good profit. "Oh, our net spend is lower than Stoke's", but how many players have Stoke sold for £27M?

Pip would be a terrible spokesman for our club. It's bad enough when he gets on tele for the occasional post-match talkie.

People who try to claim that money and net spend have no correlation to success are either in denial or plain ignorant. It's not everything of course and no-one is saying it is. But it is undeniably a huge part of it as witnessed by the fact that only non mega rich team to get into the top 4 in the last 8 or so years was David Moyes's Everton.

After success in his native Scotland, Smith's retirement lasted a month as he took the manager's job at Premier League club Everton in June 1998. Smith replaced Howard Kendall after his third spell as Everton manager, having only avoided relegation in 1998 due to their superior goal difference over Bolton Wanderers.

Initially Smith was linked with the manager's job at Sheffield Wednesday, but false promises made to him by the Everton chairman of massive transfer funds and unlimited ambition lured Smith to Goodison Park. Smith spent money on players only to discover that it was money the club did not have. When Duncan Ferguson was sold behind Smith’s back, he was tempted to quit. The remainder of his time at Everton revolved around selling the club's top players to balance the books.

In my opinion, he did the best he could having been lied to and left with no money or choice.

http://www.toffeeweb.com/fans/interviews/ws-int.asp

Hughes paid £24 million for Lescott.

Whatever his skill level, he has never given less than 100% every time he has played for us, in a way that every 'fan' of this club claims they would.

He goes and watches his boyhood team, but when they play us, his kids are wearing Everton kits (not just at Goodison, either).

Any player is fair game for reasonable criticism as far as I'm concerned, and he is clearly struggling for a yard at the moment, but he doesn't pick himself at CM. It seems, however, that some Evertonians can't wait to make him the scapegoat for anything.

Whether he becomes the next manager or not, sadly is up to that buffoon in the Directors Box. If he was given the job, one thing that can be guaranteed is he will give it 100%

Time to move into coaching.

Roman, the point here is that Moyes has bought and sold very well; take out the Rooney sale and our net spend is £3M a year.

Or are you now using the fact that Moyes has bought a player for £5M and sold him to City for £24M against him - that's ridiculous as that just emphasises how he has created his own budget. When you factor in that squads age and most top flight careers last about 10 years, Moyes has effectively spent £3M a year to keep us running and in doing so has taken us between 8-12 places higher in the league.

Love the expletives and the rant you've made and the sarcastic (but not funny) comment about managers but you don't come across too intelligent.

Net spend over last 5 years (as of July 2012) - notice Stoke is £12M a year and ours is a neagtive spend of just over £2M a year – no Rooney factor here either.

1. Man City £382,150,000

2. Chelsea £190,700,000

3. Stoke City £60,075,000

4. Aston Villa £53,550,000

5. QPR £35,650,000

6. Man Utd £34,150,000

7. Liverpool £26,800,000

8. Fulham £23,600,000

9. West Brom £15,915,000

10. Sunderland £11,850,000

11. West Ham £8,100,000

12. Norwich £6,950,000

13. Swansea £6,570,000

14. Tottenham £5,590,000

15. Wigan -£2,750,000

16. Southampton -£3,150,000

17. Everton -£10,815,000

18. Reading -£21,250,000

19. Arsenal -£21,280,000

20. Newcastle -£43,400,000

The point about Moyes is that he inherited a squad with very few sellable players and despite being given little money by the board (as evidenced by our comparitvely low net spend) took us up the table from relegation candidates to (increasingly unlikely) CL hopefuls. That is why he is held in such high esteem by most people including the neutrals. Don't really see how people can dispute this.

Moyes has achieved relative success under a stable regime and has been allowed to build a squad of internationals on big wages. Whilst of course being paid handsomely himself. Hardly the 'rag tag Sunday League outfit' stuff some people like to peddle.

Everton are still one of the biggest clubs in this country and I will be surprised if Moyes sees a bigger job. My opinion of course.

I also believe the salary and security would attract good quality candidates for the manager's job should Moyes leave. However, I'm sure we will still read all the 'we would only get the likes of Peter Reid, Dave Jones or Gary Megson' shit all over again.

He has a good eye for a player, but he also has no idea how to handle players that aren't completely submissive to his dictation. The best managers in football get the best out of players that are both disciplined or complete basket cases. While Moyes is here we will always punch up around where we are now, but I seriously can't see us winning anything.

In my opinion, putting the Neviller in after Moyes goes will be a step backward, and possibly one of the worst things that could happen.

In terms of Moyes, I see what you're saying. Personally I would say he is a very good manager but maybe not a 'great' one. I suspect that Moyes can only really be judged when he is at a club that enables him to compete more financially with the big guns. Clearly that won't be with us.

Ian Campbell, referring to some Evertonians (those who differ from your views?) as "braindead" makes Roman's "rant" seem quite tame.

Chris Corn, perfect post. The team that people seem to think Moyes is burdened with is made up of players that the same people claim are the most underrated players in the league - Osman, Hibbo etc - and class players like Jags and Baines who both play for England. Fellaini who is apparently one of the best in the league. I wish I had the same problems as Moyes.

Basically Moyes has in your words 'burdened himself' with a really good team on no money yet the fact he hasn't won something is used against him.

How can Moyes be expected to win anything if he cannot retain our best players and he always has to sell before he can buy. If Moyes had a decent amount of money to spend our squad would likely be reinforced by Lescott and Arteta plus we would have Rooney up front. Players like those would then attract better players to our squad also - a virtuous cycle. 'Great' managers like Ferguson etc have money to spend each year plus they generally get to retain their best players.

Comparing Moyes success to these so called 'great managers' is a pointless process.

It may be the Lidl Rioja, but the second paragraph is a thing of beauty. Simple, razor sharp. Like Richard Dawkins in a keyboard flutter, shows the idea of religion to be complete hog.

Neville could take off to Old Trafford and be groomed for the SAF role? I can't see SAF leaving any time soon, probably be wearing a wooden overcoat when he does actually go.

A win today at Old Trafford seems unlikely but stranger thinks have happened and we are due a win there anyway.

Moyes knows how the finances at this club work - he's been here 11 years. If he knows he has to sell a player to bring a few more in, then it's about getting business done early. Lescott was a massive loss, but the way it was handled did more damage than losing him as a player ever did. This summer, if Fellaini talks of leaving in May-June, then we cannot afford to have in handing in a transfer request in the last week of the summer. Sell early, and do some research.

Your post #724 suggested that Moyes wasn't given money to spend money because he isn't a good enough manager and you also took issue with the point about successful managers having £24mil being a reason for their success.

My points are;
Net spend is significant in judging Moyes, you have disputed this.
Your point #787 doesn't make sense – quote the price of the squad and not the net, if Moyes makes £17-19mil on Lescott and he can spend some of this then he has increased the price of his squad not Blue Bill or anyone else. This is only a positive.
Point #804 – culture vs great manager... how did you come to that conclusion seems like a load of waffle to me unless you're involved in the day-to-day action and part of this 'culture' that you speak of.

Difference between us is that, in judging Moyes, I've looked at it from a subjective perspective – spend and places gained whereas you have looked at cultures that you are not part of, youth players that we don't have, and an assumption that with money Moyes would be no better than Mark Hughes.

Hmmmm.

I see a lot of posts extolling Moyes virtues, citing net spend and the Walker / Walter years. These are red herrings. The budget is what it is, and Moyes has been here long enough to understand and work within the confines of it. The Walker / Walter years are about as relevant to now as the Gordon Lee years to be honest.

There seems to be a growing belief that Moyes has taken us as far as he can, and it's not an argument thats easy to defeat. I guess we're torn between the "be grateful for what we've got" brigade and those who are deluded enough to think that our club motto might actually still mean something.

When you see a guy like Laudrup come along and in three quarters of a season do what Moyes hasn't in 11 years, then you can expect some derision. Laudrup has taken his team to Highbury and come away with three points. And Laudrup is on course for a trophy. Oh, and his team even manages to play some quite eye-pleasing fitba – on a shoestring no less!
To clarify – Moyes is NOT Everton, he will not be here forever, and change is just that – change. The new gaffer may be the next Laudrup; he may be the next Walker. Do most of us want to see the club take a chance and try and find a new man who can take us further?

It's hard to escape the belief that Moyes is the Scottish Curbishley. He brings stability and structure and absolutely zero chance of taking the next step. What do Everton fans want? The chance of something better – or worse – or more of the same old?

Phil, if it's good enough for him it's good enough for you.

There are so many downfalls to Moyes (our strikers seem to be stripped of confidence, no youth coming through - btw is there anything more exciting than an academy product doing well in blue?-, rolling over to the sky 4 etc.)

There is an "old boys" club feel to Everton now that I don't like. None of our coaches were dynamic, inventive players in their day. All were work horse center halves with little to no guile or vision. it worries me to the core that these types of players have infiltrated our coaching ranks and now have a stranglehold on the style of which we play...

Neville I'm afraid, fits right into this profile. I for one pray that we go in a different direction with our next managerial hire. Lets think outside the box and find a manager that'll have a proper go at some of the big boys!!