Learning from Juventus

Would be interested to know what wages these guys are on. I would guess way more than Everton can afford to pay.

In Massimiliano Allegri, Juventus have a manager of the highest quality and it shows what can be achieved if you appoint such a man, even without huge amounts of money being spent.

The jury is still out on Roberto and, if he needed to be replaced, would BK be able to find the right man? I doubt it. We can dream though.

Clarence, the free transfer aspect is a misleading point. Essentially from our perspective, free transfers fall into one of two categories. Those that would sign for us, and those that wouldnÂ’t. Pogba wouldnÂ’t. Cleverly did.

I take your point about not needing a billionaire, but to even get into a position to attract a Pogba in the future, we need to be challenging for honours. In the absence of a billionaire we need to be a money-making machine on and off the pitch and weÂ’re further away from that now than weÂ’ve ever been.

....and of course, they signed Buffon on a free.....or was he the goalie they paid 㿌.6M for?

Never mind, Clarence, weÂ’ve made a start. WeÂ’ve got Cleverley Â’on a GordonÂ’, havenÂ’t we?

Dee - wages in Italy, even for the Â’starsÂ’, are nowhere near those for the PL. Tevez & Pogba are on around 䀆k/week according to the press.

Whilst thatÂ’s more than we can afford, itÂ’s nowhere near the 𧶲k/week odd that Rooney and Falcao were on last season at Man Utd. The majority of the 1st XI at Chelsea are on well over 𧴜k/week, nevermind Man City. Baines actually earns more than Pirlo!

But thatÂ’s just the craziness of the PL and why so many players, UK or foreign, want to come and play here. Nevertheless, youÂ’d be looking a long time for any decent footballer whoÂ’d rather run out at a dilapidated GP in Liverpool than go to the current Italian Champions in their brand new stadium with yearly CL almost guaranteed.... itÂ’ll be a long long time (if ever) before weÂ’re on the same level as Juve.

They just got Khedira on a free as well and added Dybala who will be world class. They certainly recruit well.

I agree completely with this piece. Juventus have achieved more than Man City and other cash rich clubs and good on them. Success means more when itÂ’s earnt and not bought. IÂ’m all for not wasting money on inflated transfer fees but MartinezÂ’s recruitment just doesnÂ’t seem up to even MoyesÂ’s level let alone JuveÂ’s.

Not sure about this logic though. How does Juventus compare with the other Italian clubs in that respect? Not to be defeatist, but what worked for a club in a different environment, might not necessarily work for us.

Nonetheless, IÂ’m always hopeful (hopelessly so) of our chances at glory.

Juventus have way more prestige than us as a football club. They have a nice new stadium, theyÂ’re viewed by many as the biggest team (a moot point re Milan) in Italian football, and can attract big names.

Everton can’t claim any of the above so the comparison while a nice thought, doesn’t really ring true to me. Everton are an old club that used to be big in the same vain as Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa etc – I’ll bet many Villa fans think of themselves as a so-called ’big club’ much the same as we do. I know Forest fans who feel that way about their club given that they won 2 European Cups a long time ago.

Juve are way out of our league – you only have to look at the players they court and have playing for them compared to ours – Pogba, Pirlo, Tevez, Buffon, Chielini and they’re being linked with Van Persie right now – names we can only dream of at Everton. World Stars each in their own right. Who do we have that’s a big world name? Nobody? Lukaku? Baines?

It would be nice to think that you donÂ’t need pots of cash, and Juve are a good case in point, but thereÂ’s more to it than mere money. They have prestige, they have a stadium, theyÂ’re a global name albeit lagging behind the BarcelonaÂ’s and MadridÂ’s of this world, but weÂ’re nowhere near them in terms of anything at all.

I donÂ’t see what the point is.

Would Pirlo sign for us on a free (even if we offer 10% more in wages)?

DonÂ’t kid ourselves. We have a very rich history and is a Â’big clubÂ’ in that way. But we havenÂ’t done anything in the past 20 years to attract top talents to our club (especially on a free when they can choose to sign for CL clubs).

I read a stat that said the player who covers the most ground in a game for Barcelona was Neymar. The same stat went on to say that Juventus have six players in their team who cover more ground than Neymar each game.

So whilst money rules the game, we could still definitely learn off Juventus.

Those of us who are old enough to remember the team of the eighties will tell you, the key to any great team is hard work. It might even get players like Lukaku into the Champions League! Sssshhh!!!

Tony - you’re right, and that goes back to numerous posts where I’ve talked about talent & ability versus mindset. We have players with bags of ability (Barkley, Lukaku, Mirallas [Deulofeu in theory]) but each of them lacks the mindset required to be a truly top class player – workrate to go with that ability, and the mental scope to put it in minute after minute, week after week.

You watch the top players at clubs like Madrid, Barca, Juve etc and they put it in over & over again, time & again – we have players who simply do not have the same ethic and that’s what sets us & them apart.

Talent vs mindset is and has been an English problem since money took over the game. You just need to look at the likes of Rooney, Sterling and Wilshere to see that.

James. Spot on.

Juventus do not need to compete against Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City, Man Utd and Spurs just to qualify for the Champions League and the money it brings.

Chelsea and Man City never competed for the Champions League until they got themselves their billionaires.

I think we could reach The CL final with Abramovich and Martinez, but not with Kenwright and Allegri. Juve may have over-achieved to reach the CL final but IÂ’ll take the billionaire route, if offered, every time.

Given FFP rules and our global brand, or lack there of, even a trillionaire wouldnÂ’t get us into the top 4.

John #14 on recent European evidence the Italian, German and Spanish sides are all superior to teams in our League so, whilst there is some truth in what you say, I donÂ’t accept the inference that itÂ’s a lot easier for them to qualify for Champions League than it is for us.

Matt et al, I do realize that even on frees, Pirlo, Pogba likely would not come here. But the overarching point is that I think we can aim higher than the likes of McGeadey and Besic, who though while he looks good at points was still brought in straight from the Hungarian League. ThereÂ’s value to be had out there, we just need the savvy leadership to find it!

James @11 – you are absolutely right. It doesn’t matter how much a player is worth, if he thinks he is so good he doesn’t need to put any effort in, then he is doomed. That is why so many very expensive players don’t make it in the Premier League because you can’t just strut around. If you get a player on a free then they must be prepared to work their bollocks off which to be fair most do at Everton.

As a rule, the more we pay at Everton, the less we seem to get – Lukaku is the prime example as 㿈M for a big lazy lump like him is a scandal. He is so deluded into thinking he will ever play in the Champions League – for Rosenborg maybe... no-one else. Even if he was available for free, would Juventus sign him? Never in a million years.

James letÂ’s hope Martinez has a great plan to transform them. Maybe heÂ’s got us playing this way to wind the players up, make them frustrated, to make them want to change!

WouldnÂ’t next season be great if this was part of RobertoÂ’s masterplan... LET US PRAY!

Italian football has been dead for years let's face it. The Milan clubs are now an irrelevance, Roma and Napoli have spent big to try and catch up and have got nowhere near. ItÂ’s essentially a one-team league.

The Juve model of buying cheaply has worked for them, mainly because they probably have some of the finest scouts and coaching staff in the world, as well as an ultra modern stadium making them by far the richest club in Italy, even if it is a 41,000-seater or whatever it is...

We on the other hand have no money, an ageing decrepit stadium, a clueless board, and all of WiganÂ’s coaching staff and scouts. So youÂ’re probably not going to get the best players. And we have a manager who only seems to have knowledge of the Premier League or Wigan when it comes to signings.

What we need is a director of football like Juve have who can make the signings because I donÂ’t think we can trust Martinez to make the right signings.

Okay, Firstly success that they have is earnt not bought? Apart from the new ground they bought and the opposition and officials they bribed when match fixing.

Also to be fair, 7.5% of Juve is owned by Libian Arab investment group, and some 64% by the same industrialist family (the Angels family) that have been an ever-present at Juve giving them several presidents.

Also they are sponsored by Jeep who were bought by Fiat who used to be commercial partners with Juve. Hardly paupers, like...

http://www.Evertonfc.com/news/2015/06/08/Everton-named-in-top-15-most-valuable-brands-in-world-football?

Juventus are a far bigger draw for any player of any value than Everton, especially, as they have won Seria A this season and before that and before then. Everton scraped home in 11th place, with some of the worst possible football to watch at times, just behind the mighty Crystal Palace, with the mighty West Brom just behind Everton in the premier league.

Juventus are a far bigger draw for any player of any value than Everton, especially, as they have won Seria A this season and before that and before then. Everton scraped home in 11th place, with some of the worst possible football to watch at times, just behind the mighty Crystal Palace, with the mighty West Brom just behind Everton in the Premier League.

Peter #16

With few exceptions, it is the richest teams in every country that qualify each year, and the richest of the rich are the ones that get to the latter stages. Money talks (even if it donÂ’t sing and dance etc).

Perhaps we were comparable with Juve in the mid-80’s (and I would have loved to see us play them in a Champions League Final with our great team). Now – not a good comparison for me. Juventus have Fiat/Agnelli behind them and just paid €32M for some bloke from Palermo.

Sadly for us, these days a better comparison/role model for the club is Sevilla.

I donÂ’t think the poster was trying to compare us directly with Juventus. But we can learn from their recruitment model and work ethic. We have done good business getting Cleverley, because if he fails, we could still sell him for ٣ million. We also need to make sure that the likes of Garbutt are not allowed to leave on a free in future.

Small steps, but because we are not a very well run club off the pitch, we need to make sure we get the trading right on it.

Sadly Amit, I donÂ’t think you can compare us to Seville - whoÂ’ve just retained the EL and also qualify for the CL every now and then (will be there next season again).

In fact looking it up theyÂ’ve won the EL 4 times in the last 10 years! Seville also have some quality (exciting) players like Reyes, Bacca and Banega. They are light years ahead of us.

We draw a big crowd and have a loyal, mostly local, fanbase but win nothing and recently are slightly more interesting than watching paint dry.

John (25). Absolutely, it really is that simple. I can’t be arsed googling ’CL qualification for cash spent table Europe’, but I don’t have to – it’ll say (show) what your post says.

James (8) I had no idea there are more deluded supporters than our friends across the park – Notts Forest a big club (allow me a chuckle here, for a club with just a handful of years of success and numerous years spent outside the top flight).

John #14

Chelsea never competed for Champions league until they got themselves a Billionaire" ? . .Are you sure ?

Not only had they already qualified when Abramovich took over, but in the years leading up to his arrival, they were winning The league cup, The FA cup, The Cup Winners Cup. The Russian bought an already successful club with a ground situated in one of the most affluent areas of the UK. Sure his cash has bought trophies, but they were also doing very nicely before he got there . . Thats WHY he got there.

The only way Martinez would go to the Champions league final with him is if the Russian bought his ticket

Darren (#31),

Matthew Harding was hardly short of a bob or two, not necessarily a billionaire, but one of BritainÂ’s 100 richest men. Without his input, I doubt they would have got near the haul you mention.

Darren #31, Seem to remember that Chelsea were almost bankrupt before Abramovich came in and that was on the back of buying trophies in the 90s. Gullit, Zola, Hoddle et al didnÂ’t come cheap, that's why they were finally winning trophies.

Chelsea won the cup under that nice man Ken Bates, who promptly sacked Guillit and brought in Ranieri. He then sold to Abramovitch who bankrolled Ranieri, then sacked him.

I canÂ’t remember if Ranieri actually won anything, but surely people on here canÂ’t regard a cup win as success, can they?

I havenÂ’t read any of the above comments but arenÂ’t Juventus owned by the Agnelli (Fiat) family? Hardly paupers are they. They also have a magnificent stadium and fantastic shirt deals.

I get your point about being imaginative in the transfer market, Clarence, but thereÂ’s no comparison between us and the bianconeri.

Sorry, I forgot that they competed in the Champions League under Ranieri, who was sacked for Â’onlyÂ’ reaching the quarterfinal. Regardless of his money, he then made his wisest decision in appointing Mourinho.

Andrew (#12), I certainly wouldnÂ’t put Rooney alongside Sterling and Wilshere in terms of mindset or talent. In my view, Rooney at his best could have played for anyone. The other two arenÂ’t good enough.

Rooney is a spent force. Not much more of a player now than Cleverly. The lack of sharpness in his game, particularly in his twists and turns, is embarrassing.

Steve. Rooney could play in at least 4 positions in our current first team. I could possibly go to 5 if TimÂ’s having a flappy day.

In that case, Steve, we are indeed blessed.

This comparison does not hold up because the context is utterly different (as others have mentioned). We canÂ’t attract the level of players Juventus do, and do not have the capacity to pay large wages or offer Champions League Football. Italian football has been on a steady decline, and Juventus benefit from their position at the top of a depleted league in which two of the biggest historical names have fallen spectacularly from the pinnacle of the international game (The Milan teams).

Juventus also got to the top of the game previously by spending heavily on a level which we cannot match, and have never matched. The 2001-02 off season, when they spent comfortably over 𧴜million in a far cheaper market than today, demonstrates that.

Athletico are also a wonderful, and a more impressive example, of how careful spending can bring about incredible success. But again, the context is different. England is by far the most competitive of the big leagues, and the consistency of the top 4, all of whom benefit from strong finances, illustrates how difficult it is to break into that collective and benefit from the consistent European football necessary to raise a clubÂ’s profile, increase revenue and attract players of a necessary quality to enable for sustained success.

Ahh yes, Chelsea, that according to the media are a Big Club but before the Russian money arrived had won the League Title once.

Whereas that small club that continually punches above their weight (according to the media) have won it nine times...

Sorry Colin, but itÂ’s not what youÂ’ve done itÂ’s what you are now. Chelsea are a big club, can attract any players they want. We can not.

Exactly David #44.

Talking about history is pointless. It is about now, not 50 years ago. We canÂ’t even beat West Ham to sign Ayew on a free, apparently!

Some utter nonsense being spouted here.

Between the years 1996 (AFTER we had won our last Trophy) and the arrival of Abramovich; Chelsea won the FA Cup under Gullit. They won the FA Cup, The League Cup, The ECWC and the Super Cup under Vialli, they also qualified for the CL.
They finished 6th, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 6th and 4th in the league. After serious hard ship playing at a half built Stamford bridge in the 80s and 90s – Stamford Bridge was completed around about the turn of the century (if memory serves) They had built the "Chelsea Village" complete with its bars, restaurants, two hotels during the Bates era.

In short, they were already light years ahead of us before the Russian money arrived.

Chelsea were nothing compared to us. absolutely Nothing, I remember leaving after Harper's goal had more or less secured our title thinking "What a shit hole" ... but while they were taking really bold, some may say, even reckless gambles (they did indeed face bankruptcy), we were doing nothing.

In the meantime, our board ... well we all know what our board have done.

I think we have a tendency to point envious fingers at other clubs rather than ask why nobody wants us.

We are not an attractive proposition for anybody (always assuming we are for sale). While super stadiums were being developed or built all over England we were painting the bogs in the Bullens Road.

We missed the starting gun.