FA expected to investigate Holgate-Firmino clash

Funny how the BBC pundits who agreed it wasn't a penalty never recommended that the FA should investigate the incident as they did in the Niasse incident. Nor did they suggest that the FA should investigate Firmino...

Offended by everything but ashamed of nothing.

Horrible vile club.

Now how anyone can say that with any degree of certainty, I don't know. Maybe these expert on Twitter and the internet are all Kopite lip-readers? And maybe it was said off camera.

I expect this will all be swept under the carpet.

But seriously, we are improving and we have talent, with more drive and composure in the engine room and we could be a real threat.

Jonjoe and Mason are going to be top top defenders and they didn't cost £75m.

I personally think he said it, Holgate certainly thought so. The ref has not made the decision there and then because he knew that the media coverage of it would be massive and he will want to be 100% certain/have evidence of it happening.

It's is the 4th or 5th story on the BBC – it should be the first. I also agree that Lallana should be banned

I'd rather see Lallana charged with deception. If a panel of three need to agree, well it was unanimous last night...

I have watched the 'incident' several times, and Lallana's reaction was akin to being hit by train.

The referee I thought too was very unfair, in his issuing of Yellow Cards, which only seemed applicable if the alleged foul was committed by a Blue Shirted player.

I don't want it to sound like 'sour grapes' but I think we could have got something out of this game, had it not been for the aforementioned.

Alice band needs a ban for exaggerating contact to win the penalty and our club should be making a fuss about both incidents.

I thought the referee was generally poor last night and gave them the benefit too often. Maybe he wants to be best buddies with them, just like Twatenberg.

Effectively branding Niasse a cheat, the commission deemed the 27-year-old's body movement when he and Palace defender Scott Dann had come into contact “were simply not consistent with the amount of force exerted upon him”.

The panel added: “The nature of the contact made by Dann was minimal and would not have thrown Niasse off balance and knock him down in the way he portrayed.”

For 'Niasse' and 'Dann' substitute 'Lallana' and 'Holgate'

"Ooh, there was definitely contact!" (So what? Would you say that for a foul outside the box?)

"He's entitled to go down." (Condoning cheating.)

Slippy Steve being the worst example of the above...

Puta translates from Spanish into English as whore or bitch. Hijo de puta is son of a whore or son of a bitch – the very worst type of insult one can throw at a Spaniard. All that said, Firminho speaks Portuguese but I was just referring to your post re your translation.

Firminho is still a 'see you next Tuesday'!

I wasn't the only one to have spotted this and was worried I'd made a mistake but others on other threads saw it clearly too.

I recorded the game and watched that part several times and it's clear to me what Mason was saying to Jonjoe.

The tee-shirts are being printed as we speak.

Missed that so I knew mason had reacted to something significant (feared the worst) but puzzled by immediate allegations it was the N-word. It makes sense though as Mason was heading for at least a yellow for pushing RF never mind grabbing the refs shoulder. Madely heard the N-word and thought... "This is gonna cause a shit-storm if I'm seen to send the lad off when he's been racially abused."

That would be the lowest of the low from a scumbag club with scumbag fans... oh, wait a minute!

I totally agree with you with regard to the ref's actions. He basically shit himself and, looking at this from a totally unbiased view, Mason should probably have been sent off but the ref took no action for the very reason you suggest, IMO.

With regard to the penalty, they'll just say it's payback for Calvert-Lewin's one in the league.

I said that last night, I could see him saying to Jonjoe, "He called me a fucking nigger!"

I think it was you I said to "Thank God someone else saw it."

If Holgate told the ref he was racially abused by Firmino surely that should be in his report and action taken by the FA.

Also, as the deception by Llanana for the penalty, as this looked almost identical in the amount not contact against Niasse in the Palace game.

Did anyone else think it odd when the players were going off at half time that Milner was discussing things with the ref while covering his mouth – almost as if they were talking tactics for the second half...

We all know nothing will come of the allegations from Holgate and the penalty for the media darlings, so I can't see the club pushing matters too far.

And who was a credible witness to whatever was alleged to have been said (and there are all sorts of guesses flying around)? So no action will be taken there.

The way Holgate reacted seemed more likely something like that. Again though, I couldn't actually see what Holgate said was said to him, so simply speculating.

As for Lallana, he went down far too easily but, even if he got banned, it would be a price worth paying as they are still in the cup and we're not. They have plenty of players so losing Lallana for a couple of games is no great loss.

The only way to make clubs pay for diving is to reverse the result should the diving player's side win. The whole club has to pay and not benefit from one of their players cheating

We all get worked up watching these games but I do wonder why some "supporters" think it is acceptable to use the "c" word when referring to our own players. It's not as if it is an automatic impulse as they have to react then type it!

I can swear with the best but find abuse at this level shameful. As Matt said, what is wrong with people?

Priceless.

So something followed after that. If it was the word that Holgate said he was called to Jonjoe Kenny, then the ref will also have heard it. And should if so tell the review board.

Holgate was stupid and rash with the push into the crowd. It is as dangerous as a two-footed challenge and was a sending-off in my view. And would have let the team down.

The Firmino part needs to be dealt with accordingly, if he is guilty, and not swept under the carpet.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that he did call Holgate "filho da puta" which literally translates as "son of a whore" and is about as common an insult you'll hear in Portuguese. I could see that without a replay.

Holgate doesn't react to this. What is said after that I do not know because frankly I have not studied it back but Holgate only reacts afterwards when Firmino leans in. He may well have said something else but one thing is for sure, the relatively mild-mannered Holgate was enraged by it.

James Hughes (#10)

Utterly cretinous comment. To insinuate that racist comments are "a South American trait" is in itself a form of racism.

If Madley heard what he regards as a racist comment from Firmino to Holgate and then sent Holgate off, he'd have the world tumble around his ears. I think he went to the 4th Official, Moss, to give himself some thinking time and decided that he couldn't send Holgate off because he'd have to also take action against Firmino... so just did nothing. Cowardly, in my opinion, but we saw that last time he refereed us.

I mean looks to me you are calling LLana a puff to me in your post #33. homophobia is fine is it.
I also began that sentence with Maybe not It Is a trait. So you carry on with name calling pal. After all being called a cretin by you is a bit laughable

He says "What you on about, Holgate was holding him.."

"No, I mean Firmino diving into the stands, you bell..."

Being a fluent Portuguese speaker and following the game on a dodgy stream, I couldn't see clearly enough what Firmino said live last night.

This morning, reading of the claims of what he did say, I have searched out videos showing Firmino's angry reaction.

For me as he rushes towards Mason, he mouths the following in Portuguese:

"Caralho! Caralho! Filho de puta!" If he says anything after that, I couldn't see as his face was hidden by other players.

'Caralho' can refer to a man's penis (so in effect calling someone 'a prick!' or, more commonly, simply means 'Fuck'!

'Filho de puta' simply means 'son of a whore', or, to give it its more accurate English translation, 'son of a bitch'. Again, depending on the context and situation, it can be used as playful jousting with a mate, or really calling someone out as (the English equivalent) 'motherfucker!'

As is now the case with 'fuck' in the English language, depending on the situation and the intensity of how it is expressed, yes, it can be aggressive and insulting, but more commonly, it is used every day by all genders and ages to express mild annoyance to rage.

You bang your big toe against a table leg? "Caralho! That hurt!"

You look in the mirror and see a receding hairline? "Caralho! I'm losing my hair?"

You see Morgan Schneiderlin play another underhit sideways pass? "Caralho Schneiderlin! Filho de puta!"

Two things here:

1) Frimino for me clearly resorts to his native Portuguese in reaction to a very foolish shove into the crowd by Mason Holgate. Quite frankly, it was a completely understandable reaction to a very dangerous action by Holgate.

2) I very much doubt Mason Holgate's Portuguese extends to the above description I provide. Either he misheard or misunderstood what was actually said, or there was something said further I was unable to see.

My reading of the incident may not be a popular one, but I really don't believe Firmino has a case to answer here.

ps: Whilst not condoning Holgate's foolish shove, I have to say I did enjoy seeing the likes of Davies and Baningime getting involved and standing up for their mate, even encroaching on the playing area. We need more of that kind of bottle at Anfield.

Kenwright, Moshiri, Elstone and Allardyce can all get fucked as far as I'm concerned as they are running our club like pure ammeters. We need people who want to win and not just make money. Give me a fighting football team with aspirations of winning every game at Goodison than a powder puff team run by some gobshite whose sole intent is not to be beaten at a new stadium.

Just for the record. I have played football on the beach in Brazil and Firmino would be saying what he has probably said a thousand times in Brazil. The darker you are, then the more likely your to be called a nigger although this happens generally with the lower classes. I don't condone it at all but, being from Liverpool, I don't know how many times I have been called a scouse twat or cunt on my travels around the UK with Everton and work. It's not nice but there is plenty of give and take in this world.

It's not long ago the signs in boarding houses in the UK read 'No Irish, No Jamaicans'. It's okay to call the Irish whatever you want, or say 'Scouse Cunt' in East London; it's okay because the BBC hate them as well.

Any elementary reading of Anthropology will tell you 'racism' is a cultural construct and really is only made obsessive in countries such as ours because the middle class bores have no proper jobs to do.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/Roberto-firmino-mason-holgate--14120511

If this goes before an independent panel, then that's the end of it as they won't find Firmino guilty. Could be a different outcome for Holgate though.

The BBC MotD panel did begin to discuss this issue at half-time but were probably advised to leave the subject alone later in the show. The Lallana collapse should be punished retrospectively unless (as someone else suggested above) the FA Cup is judged differently than the Premier League. I can't think why as it is the FA panel that sat on the Niasse case.

You can clearly see Firmino saying "Puta" but that wasn't why Holgate lost it. Others must have heard it too.

That is one of the worst words in the English language. Don't trivialise it.

https://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com/2018/1/6/16856530/Roberto-firmino-mason-holgate-clash-spat-fa-investigation-incident-racial-abuse-merseyside-derby

Tell me how on earth did Eric Cantona not go to prison! How did Suarez not get kicked out of football for life! Probably something to do with the clubs they play for so hence why we will probably see Holgate charged for pushing Firmino into the stand.

I am not one of Wayne Rooney's biggest fans, and a lot of that comes down to how he left us for Man Utd, but, even though he was on big money playing and winning trophies for them, how on earth could he listen to those bastards sing "If you all hate Scousers, clap your hands" at every home game? I have zero respect for him whatsoever.

Last night's incident was nothing but it has managed to cloud over another defeat no less.

That link only shows the first part of Firmino's tirade; when Kenny blocks our view of Firmino, he says something else and it is that which makes Holgate lose his rag.

FDP meaning 'son of a bitch' when directly translated, but in the context is closer to calling him a 'fucking cunt'.

VTL meaning 'are you crazy'.

Couldn't see him say anything else. But maybe he did.

That prick from Crystal Palace deserved what he got. If I was a professional footballer I'd be in the stand every second week with what some the cowards shout from the safety of their seats.

As for your comparison between called the N-word and a scouse whatever, although I see your point, the real difference is the historic connotations attached to the N-word.

Similarly, somebody calling someone me a lanky bastard or a ginger prick isn't seen as bad as calling me an Irish dog.

Kenny's head then blocks any view of what he said next.

Those saying he said 'nigger' seems at odds with the context, as he was speaking Brazilian portuguese, so to so suddenly switch to English would be odd. But he said something that certainly riled Holgate.

Racist Brazilian portuguese words are more like 'criolo' 'preto' or 'negro + adjective', but we have no way of really knowing.

Think you may be referring to me as one of those saying he called Holgate a nigger.

Just so we're crystal clear, and not having a go honest, I said Holgate said "He just called me a nigger."

There's a difference. I was quoting what I believed Holgate said, not what Firmino allegedly said.

Holgate may be wrong, who knows, but that's what he said to Jonjoe.

Negao — Portuguese for the alleged name called. Phonetically the same.

"I'd rather see Lallana charged with deception. "

You'd rather see Lallana charged with deception as opposed to what?

What are the choices you see?

Your post mentions Holgate. What does Holgate's altercation have to do with the Lallana penalty award?

Holgate asked the ref if he heard what he was called; ref said no. Holgate was shocked.

What a suprise. The ref bottled it. The reason he did not book Holgate for the push (it's a derby, more of that needed please) is because he was trying to calm the situation.

Nothing will be done about this is my guess.

Anybody know for sure?

Not true.

"Any elementary reading of Anthropology will tell you 'racism' is a cultural construct and really is only made obsessive in countries such as ours because the middle class bores have no proper jobs to do".

Do you have a reference you can cite in evidence of the part of that concerning middle class bores?! Sounds like a very elementary reading of anthropology!

If Cantona had been in an Everton shirt that day, then he would have gone to prison... and likewise with Suarez, if he had been dressed in blue then he would have been banned for life. We are too nice and just take whatever comes our way.

As for the comparison. What comparison? Don't try to tell me that it's worse for someone to be called the N-word because of the racial context than it is to be called a Scouse, Geordie, Brummie cunt because it's generally said in a racial way. I am not one to get over-offended by it because it can be given back so no problem.

One thing is for sure – that the incident is another example of how things get blown out of proportion with TV and social media.

I have been called 'a scouse bastard' and that causes me no more than minor irritation, if that. I'm white so have never been called by the N-word but I'm more sensitive to the feelings expressed by people who are called that word. If I hear somebody else being called by the N-word, I seethe. Absolutely disgusting.

The comment you refer to is from Jim Bennings. Not me.

And what you said at #10 was "The RS have form for this, ratboy got banned for racist comments. Maybe a South American trait."

You are clearly implying racism is a South America trait. Like I said: cretinous.

I know how things work in Brazilian society as I have spent time there. I watched a game of footy on a beach one morning and some of the names being thrown about were funny to hear from team mates: ladrao (thief); negao (black man); careca (baldy); malandro (scallywag or rascal) and many more.

These were all mates, by the way, and I then thought of when a gang of us used to play years ago in Liverpool and some of the language was unprintable. I am also sure that this goes on in every society but some are less sensitive.

Call any of my black mates a scouse bastard and they would laugh. Good luck to anyone calling them a nigger...

I was implying that the western idea of 'racism' is relative to our culture. I wasn't defending or trying to minimise the appalling thing that racism is – not sure if you get my point but you could read almost any Anthropology of the 20th Century – Geertz, Bronowski etc.

In fact there is an argument (I can't remember by whom) that in an evolutionary sense the effective use of 'racism' was a means of protecting the 'group' from disease, access to hunting/gathering etc.

So, when Homo Sapiens marched out of Africa and encountered Homo Neanderthal in the Levant and then in Europe, they didn't inter breed, read the Guardian discourse, or ban the word 'Christmas' ; in fact we wiped the Neanderthals out. Was that 'racist'?

If it wasn't for a genetic fault we wouldn't have even had language approx 70,000 years ago... then Agriculture... then the State etc – and we would still be picking up berries, mushrooms and unable to call the next tribe 'twats'.

I am sure the FA will ask for the players' version were Firmino will say he never racially abused the player and Holgate will say he did. Then the FA will come out and say they can't make a decision because of the conflicting reports and no further action will be taken.

Remember the stick the other lot gave Evra when he accused Suarez of racially abusing him, but it turned out he was right. Then Liverpool, being totally insensitive, printed shirts for the players to wear in their next warm up game backing Suarez.

Seeing Klopp last week applaud Brewster for raising the subject of him being racially abused, I will be interested to hear his take, although he will toe the party line of "Firmino didn't racially abuse Holgate". But you have to wonder what else could have provoked such a reaction – certainly not being called a prick, as I am sure he has been called before.

The top clubs always seem to escape these incidents most of the time.

Me and Tony just looked at each other but we were very surprised as the lad who spoke was a pretty mild lad. I don't know if that word is common among black people talking about each other.

Your post #65 doesn't answer my question as to where is the evidence that "Any elementary reading of Anthropology will tell you 'racism'...is only made obsessive in countries such as ours because the middle class bores have no proper jobs to do".

It is common for Afro-Caribbeans to call each other 'nigger' but if you or I did it, it would be racist and our feet wouldn't touch the floor.

My mate was talking to a West Indian woman who worked with his wife; a car went past and someone shouted "Hey Nigger!" and my mate was annoyed that someone should shout that, he looked at the car and it was a West Indian who shouted it – she just laughed and waved.

This is what annoys me – we are racist if we say that but the recipients of the racism are not if they say it. Surely it has to work both ways or not at all.

I really rammed it home to my students that they couldn't use this word in English as it would cause a lot of offence to a black person and they'd more than likely end up on an altercation, or being disciplined/sacked from their job. It took a lot of persuading from me for them to realise the seriousness of using the N word.

Now, would I be racist to suggest that Azeris are more likely to use this word than an English guy? Interesting. I had a similar discussion with a Sunderland friend of mine over the Suarez incident; my Sunderland friend had spent a lot of time in Central America and Argentina. These things go beyond language and also include cultural differences.

However, after travelling a lot, you need to know what is culturally acceptable in the culture you are in. Never pat a Thai on the head, like I did in Japan when play fighting, unfortunately the guy I tapped on the head was the 9 time ex-kick boxing champion of Thailand. Fortunately, for me at least, he was a friend and took into account my possible ignorance on the matter!

It's something you would say to reprove a naughty child that has been rolling in coal dust: "te chiorny" ("you're black!")

An exception would be the term "black Americans" rendered through a hyper literal translation, and I think most educated Russians will understand what is meant, but some older ones might think it means Americans in need of a wash.

Many Russians instead tend in common speech to use the term "nyecr" to refer to black people; though it sounds off to native English speakers, it carries no stigma in the Russian language and is used in polite company.

It has no natural root in the Russian language as far as we know, and appears to be the Russified form of the archaic Iberian word.

Accordingly, you can see why Russians with a loose grasp of English might throw the word out (even in its stigmatised English form) and find themselves, through naivety, on the receiving end of censure.

One final note. In Russian, the colour blue can be rendered with one of two words: "galaboy" (which, from my understanding, applies to Napoli blue and paler) and "sinye" (which would be royal blue and everything north of it). If anyone says that you are the former, it's a slang pejorative meaning homosexual. Just so you know (in case you didn't already)!

As you say Jay, literal translations/cultural interpretations can cause a wee bit of a faux-pas, hence my Russian-speaking students initially being a bit perplexed at me saying they couldn't use their 'N' word to describe blacks as it didn't really cross over the cultural threshold too well!

When teaching Japanese the word 'chin', they would invariably raise a smile, 'chin chin' in Japanese is slang for penis! I think my brother had a similar issue teaching Greek students the word money. With his scouse vowels it interpreted to something rather rude, resulting in his teenagers having hysterics. He had a few issues when he spoke Greek accidentally calling people things he shouldn't!

I had a student in Vietnam called Thuat, but pronounced 'twat', and the cool thing was, he really was a Thuat!

Thanks for the heads up! I generally don't pat people on the head anyway, seems a bit weird; I think it was being brought up on Benny Hill!

'Outraged By Everything, Ashamed Of Nothing', go on the Everton Flags google and that flag is there, its been my desktop background for months.

We had a good go last night so we're going to break this against them next time for sure.

'A Bristol explorer' has connotations too!

Definitely too much Benny Hill when I was growing up!

These were made in 2012 or 2013.

So someone has sat on these awaiting the time to bring them to Media attention at the same time as the alleged racist incident is being investigated. Either that, or they had a good scroll through his twitter feed to find something against him.

If the FA investigation does not find evidence of racism, but a seperate investigation finds Holgate guilty of homophobia (similar to Andre Gray) then Holgate could pay a heavy price for his altercation on Friday.

I used to, and occasionally do still work for an organisation that is so politically correct it is untrue. However, I heard a lot of anti-scouse 'humour', but nothing was ever said. Selective phobias/isms are always on play and it is rather hypocritical to say the least.

That said, I also think people are looking to get offended these days!

Actually, I was more surprised the obnoxious little man agreed it wasn't a penalty.

Honestly, if it was one of our players I couldn't support him at all after that.

Holgate's reaction said it all, first I thought he been spat at but, as that wasn't the case, he must have said something.

The Mirror are already running a story quoting lip reading experts who have "found no evidence" of Firmino racially abusing Mason.

I did myself, but it does highlight the hypocrisy!

Preemptive strikes was and is my way of dealing with the all too predictable anti-scouse jokes that inevitably come your way when dealing with these people who think they are being funny and original. I will give you some, though you may have heard them all!

What do you say to a scouser in a uniform?
A big mac and fries please.

What do you call a scouser in a white shell-suit?
The bride.

What did the scouser get for Christmas?
My fuckin' bike!

Why shouldn't you run over a scouser on a bike?
It might be your bike!

Why does the Mersey run through Liverpool?
If it walked it would be mugged!

And the final all encompassing joke to also include our Irish and Scottish friends.

A Scotsman, an Irishman and a Scouser are sitting in a bar when Jesus walks in.

The Irishman buys him a Guinness, the Scotsman buys him a scotch and the Scouser buys him a Higson's bitter.

After finishing the drinks, Jesus approaches the 3 chaps. He puts his hand on the Irishman's head, says 'Bless you my child'. The Irishman jumps up and exclaims 'It's a miracle, thank you Jesus, my arthritis is cured!'

He does the same to the Scotsman. He jumps up, exclaims a miracle and shouts 'My sciatica is cured!'

As he approaches the scouser the scouser jumps up and says 'Fuckin' back off, mate, I'm on benefits!'

I usually reel these off in quick succession, thus stealing the would-be funny chaps' thunder!

Don't give up the day job etc!

The Firmino investigation will go nowhere for a range of reasons, including but not limited to lack of evidence, provocation, RS bias. As you say, Holgate may not come out of it unscathed.

Meanwhile, Lallana engages in an obvious deception which fundamentally changes the outcome of a football match. Such acts are a scourge on the game but only safe targets such as Niasse are charged. Dare I say, more of a scourge than the occasional South American half-wit with a foul mouth / twisted mind.

Did anyone see Tom Davies when their fans started screeching at the ref and Holgate – talk of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

He was actually jumping the moment he was touched or just before it possibly. He was looking for a penalty, got a penalty, conned the ref, so should be banned. Will he be!!??

It may start sounding far-fetched now, I lived in an apartment block called My-Phuc in Saigon, thus pronounced me-fuck!

Bit odd saying it to taxi drivers!

Brilliant! Hong Kong has a lot of good ones too, but being 2:20-ish in the morning, I can't think of 'em!

"Amit... I think you have answered your own question at 54 in 85. The Firmino investigation will go nowhere for a range of reasons including but not limited to lack of evidence, provocation, RS bias. As you say, Holgate may not come out of it unscathed..."

1. I did not answer my own question. Read my post again. I said Holgate might find the FA Investigation finds nothing on one hand regarding Firmino but might potentially look into his Twitter posts. Because both are serious matters – Racism and Homophobia are not tolerated at any level of society and so the FA will fully and rightfully investigate both. Where does the Lallana penalty award, which relates to the outcome of a football match as you acknowledge, fit into this?

2. You state as fact that the FA will not find against Firmino. How do you know for sure? Also, what if Holgate was genuinely racially abused but the matter is, as you imply, swept under the carpet by the FA? Should we all take it lying down?

3. Holgate indeed may not come out unscathed but he deserves punishment if he did anything homophobic. However, he would still deserve a fair hearing by the FA on the racism matter, does he not? And also they should investigate allegations of Homophobia should they not?

4. Lallana cheated of that there is no doubt. But back to your post 7, what is this "choice" between his cheating in a football match, and the potentially serious issue of one human allegedly insulting another due to the colour of his skin, or indeed the alleged homophobic tweets? I put to you that we do not know for sure if Firmino did insult Holgate – his mouth is obscured by Kenny when Holgate reacts. That will be for the FA to investigate and find the truth, which it should do in the most rigourous manner possible. I hope you agree?

5. Someone somewhere chose to either sit on the tweets allegedly made by Holgate or troll through his twitter account. This will undoubtedly scar Holgate if he is found guilty. That was the point of my post in 85. However, Holgate deserves to receive punishment if the allegations are true. The fact that the tweets are brought up so many years after being made shows us how social media can be used at specific points /incidents, but it still in my book should mean (a) Holgate gets a fair hearing on the racism matter (b) the homophobia allegations are properly investigated and any deserved punishment handed out.

At least 3 members of the video appeal panel have LFC allegiance... says it all.

Expect a retrospective red card for Holgate and a homophobic charge.
Absolute nap.

"We will never have your trophies.
We will never have your shame"

Great occasion; will we ever see the like again?

No; '95 at the De Kuip when that fuckin Reggie 2 Blinkers and Henrik Larsson scraped it but it was fun arriving back at the city train station with those Alsatian dogs just salivating at the thought of tearing a chunk off your leg and their police were loving it.

I never made the '85 but it was probably just as much fun.

The Sunday Mirror reporting that an "expert lip reader" has looked at six different clips and cannot see any evidence of racial abuse from Firmino.

Even at the time, I just couldn't understand why Holgate wasn't booked, which does lead to me believing Madley did hear racial abuse from Firmino.

Bet Holgate gets banned for both the shove and any tweets, and ABH damages paid to Firminio out of the Victims of Crime funds.

Unrelated, but I made this one up before Christmas:-

Just been sacked from work on the day we were due to finish for Christmas for profound deafness. I could gave sworn the young girl on reception said "Would you like a quick kiss under the camel's toe!"

Happy New Year all blues.

The best compliment you can get for a joke is if someone uses it, which I will!

A mate of mine was at Carisle races when a bloke asked him if he would like the winner of the last race.

He said, "No thanks pal, I've only got a small garden!"

Holgate was angry and frustrated at the bogus pen award against him. His ridiculous shove on Firmino was dangerous and could have caused a serious injury.

For that and the reaction he was very lucky not to be sent off. I was expecting and dreading it. Not to be even booked was astonishing. The ref either did him a favour die to the pen and his age, took into account the allegation of racism or shit out and left it to the FA. Take your pick.

The replay of Firmino's reaction you can clearly see him mouthing "puta" (or similar), which is "bitch", saw that first replay. Couldn't see any use of the n-word. Considering how many people were surrounding the two, it's hard to believe only Holgate heard this comment.

My take is that Holgate misheard Firmino, who seemed to be speaking in Portuguese hence his reaction. No way I believe that he was actually abused.

I guess my wider point is that cheating is a much wider problem. Not more serious or worthy of investigation. The FA have shown for years they lack the bottle to sort it.

They will however be very keen to scrutinise Holgate's social media output from when he was a boy...

Firmino used an racially offensive word to Holgate during an altercation. He knew what he was doing, a bit different from somebody, in a country where there are no black people, making an insensitive comment.

I have no insight into whether Holgate has heard correctly or not but I seem to remember the Suarez ‘defence' was that he used a word which is supposed to translate as the descriptive ‘little black man' and be, therefore, merely insulting in context rather than racist.

I'm no expert and I'm definitely not judging this situation, but is it possible that Firminho used such a word and would that just be casually insulting (angry as he was) or should it be considered racist?

I also wonder what was said between Madely and Moss (the 4th official)? Could Moss have possibly advised Madely to not use any cards so that the FA could look into it? It could have been a bit of buck-passing, but understandable in the white-hot moment where red cards could have enraged all and sundry.

We shall see in due course, but I have little faith in the governors of our game to come to a fair conclusion.

I don't think he can be retrospectively punished for the push as the ref dealt with it. I just wonder if it's possible, should Mason come to the conclusion that he was in fact mistaken, for him to withdraw the allegation of racist abuse and make a statement that would "smooth things over"?

Don't get me wrong – if Firmino did say what Mason alleged, I want to see the book thrown at him but, as I said, I fear he may not have said it or, if he did it, was miraculously not heard by the ref, who has already said he didn't hear the word used.

On the subject of cheating and corruption in the game, it's ironic that so many posts in various threads have commented negatively on Allardyce because of his financial affairs, whilst the game overall is rife with cheating in virtually every match, together with what is effectively cheating by managers like Klopp, who consistently gets in the face of match officials and then spouts such biased nonesense.

There's a term 'bringing the game into disrepute'. Well, these cheats are doing it day in, day out, and the responsible authorities do nothing about it. Because of the power of money, especially for some of the 'top-6' clubs.

Maybe they could fight it out by a shouting match. Hurling insults til the loser is eventually offended to unconsciousness. Behind closed doors of course, in a controlled environment, so no innocents are accidentally offended.

Born in Bootle, see Colin 135/Brian 136!

Beats getting aggressive or angry as then you just play up to people's stereotype of you!

You open a can of worms that no-one wants to discuss.

You are right. While the riches are on tap, integrity will forever be cast aside. We will never see the beautiful game again.

What a prick. Unbiased fair journalism is alive and kicking, I see.

I said to him, I'll support you lot in banning The Sun so long as you boycott the entire Murdoch empire including, of course, Sky. That is, provided LFC comes out publically boycotting it, and encouraging reds to not purchase Sky packages, etc.

His only response was was "Don't be ridiculous", to which I just said "Don't bother posturing to me about morals when the morals are financially convenient ones." There's always a way to shut them up.

Martin Samuel is a life long West Ham supporter, but don't let that stop your paranoia. How Holgate wasn't carded for that push was surprising to every single person who saw it.

So to make this easy. No, the media are not all biased against us and supporters of Liverpool. And no, the referee isn't a kopite, or biased against us when we play anyone else.

Speaking a lot of sense, mate. I have been saying similar things for ages, you start feeling like a bit of a conspiracy theorist with a victim complex.

In response to those bringing up the Rat Boy incident against Evra, didn't he say "negrito" which is Spanish/Argentinian Spanish for "blackie"? I have very little knowledge of Spanish, but I thought it was explained at the time that it wasn't as bad as the N-word.

Even if it is a racial slur, in my opinion, a native Spanish speaker using a Spanish slur against a native French speaker is not near as disgusting (although it is definitely disgusting) as a native Portuguese speaker using an English slur against a native English Speaker.

How much is a Sky package these days? How much is a copy of The Sun? Therefore, which consumer is the morally worse? The Sky subscriber or the Sun reader?

I wouldn't have had a problem with Niasse getting banned for diving if there had been some consistency. Was he really the only one guilty up until that point? And yes, why hasn't Lallana's dive been scrutinized?

I actually hardly ever watch games anymore that don't involve Everton. The game has been massively ruined for me. I was working in Sri Lanka earlier this year and I think Chelsea were playing Man Utd. I was in a bar having a pint and a bite to eat. I didn't stay for the second half as I got so annoyed at the histrionics, cheating, feigned injuries and my plain dislike for almost every player on the pitch!

What annoyed me as much as the players were the officials who bought into it and the commentators who didn't call it out, they even legitimise the behaviour with their comments, like this idea that it is okay to go down in the box if you feel contact. I mean really, that is okay!!!????

Because you're not the first person to read a journalist saying something about an Everton player, in this case that Holgate's blatant two handed push of Firmino at full speed over the barrier and into the stands, and immediately say “obviously a kopite”. You don't actually know anything about him, but you have no problem making a claim that he's simply a Liverpool supporter and therefore disregard anything he wrote.

So this is from an old piece he wrote about West Ham, just a snippet. Link

“West Ham lost 4-1 and it could have been 24-1. Tbilisi went on to win the tournament.

Of course, it's hard to be wholly thrilled watching your team get pulverised, so my favourite game would have to be April 14, 1976 — West Ham 3 Eintracht Frankfurt 1. Another European Cup-Winners' Cup tie, the semi-final this time, and 2-1 down from the first leg. It never stopped raining, the pitch was a bog, but Trevor Brooking floated across it, scored twice and West Ham won 3-1.

So, farewell Upton Park. There wasn't a terrace I haven't stood on — even the away end after turning up late and following a claret-and-blue scarf through the wrong turnstile when we played Aston Villa — not a stand I haven't sat in, and we did have some laughs. There used to be a bloke who had season tickets behind my dad. He used to eat apples, talk and curse the players at the same time, so he'd inadvertently spit the bits into your hair. His claim was that he had never missed a home game since the war.”

There have been other times he mentioned it, on radio interviews in the past too, but rarely. Because he is a journalist, not lobbying in favor or against one party because of his club affiliation. I often don't agree with him. But I don't disagree out of a belief he is bias and therefor I'll just not read or listen anymore.

Maybe just maybe Mr Samuel has a soft spot for them?

If it was the other way around and Mason had got gently nudged into the crowd, would he have wrote the same article?

Hmmmm, I wonder?

And in case you haven't noticed, Everton haven't been very successful for three decades either.

Or would you say it's slanted towards Holgate or the racist South American?

I was talking about this with a Man City supporter this weekend. He's obviously chuffed with City these days, but at the same time he doesn't like all the acting and cheating in the game, including that by City players. This has dented his enthusiasm, but supporting City is in his blood so to speak. So he's similarly minded to me, even though City are being very successful.

We must live in different worlds, David. Must be a Kopite me. I agree with Stan Collymore.

Yes, I fell out of love for the actual game itself some time ago. I still hang in with Everton, blame Bob Latchford and his hattrick against Palace in 1980, my first game at Goodison!

Luckily, I still have the boxing to get me enthusiastic!

The City fan I spoke to said he watches ice hockey more than football these days, because you always seem to get an exciting game. I had to agree with him.

I suspect there's as much cheating and corruption as in football, but if it's at least entertaining then that's something.

Re The Sun — isn't it time to give it a rest? I don't read it myself anyway, and I know it was bad, but the issue in question was decades ago, and all the editorial staff will have changed by now. It’s getting like some Sicilian blood feud.

Then a few lines down: "If on Tuesday morning Firmino was in hospital with a broken back..."

Next one, talking about the push: "The fact it could have ended his career or changed his life irrevocably..."

Next one: "We hardly need to speculate further about any injury."

In the next paragraph, he changes his mind and "speculates" that Firmino "could have broken his neck."

And on and on.

Clearly a one-sided article from Samuel.

I have heard a few Evertonians lament about the state of the game, but they still watch and follow Everton, me included. The last time I truly watched another club was Hull, just because Niasse was there and I was intrigued as to whether he could actually kick a ball or not!

Yes, boxing for me is corrupt, but the protagonists are everything a lot of modern day footballers aren't. Even the likes of Mayweather, who is quite unlikable, will get the thumbs up from me, why, he has substance and there isn't any play acting/cheating going on.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2006/oct/02/radio.bbc

The second was a random one I came across.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/casey-cavanagh/an-open-letter-to-people-_b_8011324.html

The second one caught my attention because the author states:

You don't get to impose your own meaning on words and use them on, or against, other people... at least not while holding the ignorant belief it will go without ridicule — that the context you're using it in is excusable. You can't reclaim something without a thorough understanding of where it came from and the problem surrounding it. And the fact that you use it so carelessly leads me to assume you don't have that thorough understanding.

And yet the homosexual community do just that by, instead of using the term 'homosexual', using the word 'gay'. 'Gay' never used to mean 'homosexual' but it's now a term that homosexuals readily use to refer to themselves. Is that not a case of homosexuals imposing their own meaning on words?

Either way, if Mason Holgate is banned for some ill-advised tweets between friends or acquaintances from when he was 15 years of age, then I despair for the existence of common sense!

In any case, it is a separate matter and a diversion from the issue that was actually raised by Holgate.

My take on the controversial events of the game is:

(1). Lallana should either have been sent off for diving, or, given that he wasn't sent off and a penalty was awarded, he should be investigated as Niasse was.

(2). Holgate should have been sent off for the push on Firmino. He was no doubt pissed off with the penalty decision, but he should have kept his head.

(3). What was said between Holgate and Firmino is between two grown men, with no dissemination more widely, and as such is irrelevant.

The controversy had its roots in (1), which is yet another example of the cheating that is ruining the game. Everything else is a diversion from that central point.

Am I being a paranoid Evertonian!?

Willheim 2nd, Hitler, European ban, Niasse banned for diving before anyone else! Peter Johnson! Graham Poll! Everton fined for opposing fans rioting etc!

Just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean you aren't being watched!

Everton are the Switzerland of the Premier League, not really accepted into the club, regularly cheated by referees and the Premier League, ridiculed by the media (Talkshit, The Sun, BBC etc).

As Joe Strummer once said: "You either become a power or you get crushed."

Holgate should have got a yellow for the push at most.

The biggest one for me though is the Lallana dive. Nobody, yet, as told me how this and Niasse's incident differs in any way.

I'm not one for the Sky 4/6/23 or whatever conspiracy theorists come up with to back-up the "exclusion" of Everton but such people are given plenty of ammunition when Lallana isn't charged.

Does anyone know who I might contact to get a reason as to why he wasn't?

It seems the way!

I prefer the Lemmy Kilmister slant on things ''Just cos you've got the power that don't mean you've got the right!''

Shane Corcoran - 169

I am one such person!