We the 'fans' are killing this club

by   |   18/07/2020  75 Comments  [Jump to last]

We create our own reality. Okay, it is true that we are not a 'fashionable' club, and for some reason most commentators, pundits and referees dislike us; however, we as 'fans' seem to eat whatever 'they' say or even help 'them' when we also turn on our own players, Bill Kenwright, Big Dunc, Sigurdsson, Tom Davies, Pickford, etc...

How on earth is it going to get better when this negative nasty atmosphere is so obvious to all and sundry?

Do we think that any successful clubs have this amount of internal club division? We, the 'fans', are killing this club; we are victims with a victim mentality. Already, Carlo isn't good enough, Bill is cursed, best players are going... Gylfi, Tom, Bernard, Kean, etc... What a surprise then when we reap what we sow.

Leeds, the Red Shite, Man Utd, Man City, even Bournemouth are 'together'. Can we please give this manager, owner, staff etc our support? Good or bad, it's what we've got.

If you class yourself as a fan, then let's support Everton. Who knows, we could become better than all the rest. The real Dogs of War spirit.

No offence intended, just saying it really is gutting. This sick mentality is contagious. 'We', are doing exactly what the haters want at the moment, in my opinion.

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Simon Harrison
1 Posted 18/07/2020 at 12:26:56
Well said, Ricky, I'm with you all the way. Except for Bill Kenwright, he might have had the best interests of the club at heart back in the day; however, I feel his continued presence is like a lodestone around this club's neck.

Regardless, your post is a great clarion call for all Blues everywhere!

Chapeau fella, chapeau!

Tony Everan
2 Posted 18/07/2020 at 16:57:57
There is a grey area between hate and fair criticism. For me there is no room for hatred but acres of space for fair criticism. For instance if a player is standing off and not tackling or not closing down as instructed it is fair to demand better.

Criticism of this nature is healthy and is born out of heartfelt desperation to make the team more competitive. If any player gets wind of any fair criticism, it should be the best incentive to prove people wrong.

Evertonians are very demanding that we are given the football fundamentals by right. Hard graft, fight and 100% commitment every time they run out of the tunnel.

Those are part of the very foundations of what the club stands for. There's no room for being passive and gaily accepting mediocrity when the basics are being ignored.

Charles Barrow
3 Posted 18/07/2020 at 19:27:25
I don't think we are over critical – some people may have a nasty character, I don't know, but overall we are passionate and that comes out in the posts. But, most of all, all fans are hyper critical!!

I live in Brighton and I can't repeat what the locals (those that support the Seagulls, not Man Utd, or the RS) say about Graham Potter. All supporters are dissatisfied if they're not winning. If you log on to any RS blogs etc they have been scathing in the past about Klopp etc. I know fans of Leeds, Man Utd, and all get hysterical occasionally if things don't go right.

Everton fans are fed up and that's fair enough. In this world, hero to zero and back again is the name of the game.

Dave Evans
4 Posted 18/07/2020 at 19:58:57
I'm all for everyone getting behind the eleven players in a blue shirt on match days. We can't do that at the moment. Yet in recent games, the team are producing some of the worst football and performances in the Premier League.

The surrender of midfield to the opposition has nothing to do with the fans. Many have been calling this out for a couple of years. Not because they are miserably negative but they want things to change. So we can win a few more games and fans, players and everyone associated with the club can be happier.

Ralph Basnett
5 Posted 18/07/2020 at 20:40:17
So, well-written piece except we really do need to get Kenwright out of this club.

He has steadied the ship and we thank him for that, but has made a lot of money as well out of the club.

He can afford to buy his own ticket and keep his involvement to renewing his season ticket and discussing football in the alehouse.

Let the new owner, who doesn't seem to be coming out strong enough, stamp his mark now before it's too late.

John Raftery
6 Posted 18/07/2020 at 00:00:04
It is the modern way to moan about everything which is less than perfect and to do so loudly and vehemently if not hysterically. One bad performance brings out the ‘worst team I have seen in 40 years’ type of comments. One chance missed in front of goal is quoted as proof a striker is totally inept. One defeat means the manager is under pressure; two proves he was never up to the job anyway.

Every poor run of form or other problem demands a scapegoat. That might be the manager, individuals among the playing staff, Bill Kenwright, the Chief Executive, the owner and so on. In early 2018 the scapegoat was Allardyce who, despite working with a squad inferior to the present one, managed to eke out enough results to take the club to an 8th place finish in the league.

Of course that wasn’t anywhere near sufficient for many of our more vocal supporters. They argued we deserved expansive attacking football played with style. So it was good riddance to Allardyce as we took a punt on Marco Silva, a manager who had yet to complete a full season in the Premier League. Surprise, surprise, he failed to deliver stylish football and results. Two years on we are about to finish 11th or lower.

Now we have Ancelotti, a ‘world class manager’ who is being given more latitude by fans than was ever granted to Allardyce. He has done what any sensible manager would do in the circumstances; make the team harder to beat and make the best of whatever attacking resources are available. By and large he has done that. For now, the vast majority of fans, but not all, are prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt in the hope he can turn things around before next season.

And therein lies our problem. There is a strong likelihood we will not see a dramatic improvement before next season starts. Indeed Carlo will be doing well if he can make a few small incremental steps in the right direction. Some fans will be happy to accept such modest progress but I fear impatience will surface if it appears we are destined for another mid-table finish, which at present seems more rather than less likely.

Have fans learned from experience over the past four years that knee jerk reactions to every setback make things worse in the long run and that now is the time for patience and making the best of what we have? That would entail acknowledging that even though our players or manager may have their limitations, they are the best we have at present and will benefit from our support rather than our abuse. We can but hope.

Derek Thomas
7 Posted 19/07/2020 at 01:15:45
I see it's happy clapper season again – each to his own I suppose.

The solution is simple, win more games get, and see on here, less criticism.

Mike Gaynes
8 Posted 19/07/2020 at 03:42:44
"Leeds, the Red Shite, Man Utd, Man City, even Bournemouth are 'together'."

Ricky, how do you know this? Do you actually read these clubs' fan sites? I do frequently read one of the five you mentioned, Man Utd, and I can tell you that the Everton fan base cannot even approach the Reds' fans for sheer visceral attack on their own players and manager when things aren't going well. It's brutal.

And in my old Sunday kickaround club in California, I saw two Man Utd supporters literally start swinging at each other pre-scrimmage in a vicious disagreement about the merits of one player or another.

I'm sure Leeds' fansites are love fests right now -- of course they would be -- but take a quick look at Bournemouth's when they go down and see if you still feel we Evertonians are all that bad.

Eric Myles
9 Posted 19/07/2020 at 04:02:15
The players must be thankful that they are playing behind closed doors so they don't hear the much deserved abuse they would be getting.
David Currie
10 Posted 19/07/2020 at 04:44:16
Ricky,

The best thing about Everton Football Club is the Fans, we are up there with any and the loyalty is fantastic.

All the away games are sold out despite our terrible away record and dreadful football over many, many years. We have not won anything since 1995 and yet we support the team in big numbers. I don't know any fans in England with more passion, I felt it the first time I went as a six-year-old. Derek @7 is correct.

Ken Kneale
11 Posted 19/07/2020 at 08:49:15
Each to their own indeed but, if any of those mentioned had given commitment to restoring Everton's (rightful) status as a football institution as the fans have over the last three arduous decades, the club would not be in the sorry state it finds itself after the mismanagement and malaise of the administrators and players being rewarded handsomely for failure and let down on a massive scale.
Martin Mason
12 Posted 19/07/2020 at 09:06:56
Well said, Ricky. I've long said that the irrational expectations and demands of some fans is a major down for the club and players. It's also amplified by the monster that Social Media has become.

I started watching Everton in the late '50s and, when players made mistakes, the typical comment was "Bad luck, son." Now it verges on screaming, spit-flecked hatred. (I don't put this label on most fans, btw.)

Anthony Murphy
13 Posted 19/07/2020 at 09:29:26
Given our lack of success for 25 years and counting, I think the fans should be applauded for their patience and loyalty. I've never seen our away support at anything less than 100%.

We turn up, week in & week out, and have sat through some turgid stuff, whilst watching our neighbours pick up silverware on a regular basis and other lesser teams take our place.

I would therefore like to advocate that we the fans are the only thing keeping this club alive – not killing it like you say

George McKane
14 Posted 19/07/2020 at 09:57:20
My normal weekly contributions on TW are about the absolute joy of going to the match. Writing on TW – poetry, music, a bit of art – the memories stirred by the actual journey.

I lived close to Goodision as a kid and youngster and still walk the same ”merry way” to the game, meeting my friends – laughing, joking, debating and disagreeing – the sheer pleasure of the ritual, the feeling of something wonderful, spiritual and beautiful...

Then all that disappeared and I/we realised that football without fans and without ”our” ritual for watching – whatever that may be – something is missing. There are certain TW contributors that I have rarely heard anything positive from – even worse, it is constant moaning and bile aimed at certain players. I personally do not comprehend doing a regular activity in any form that seems so hateful to do. And then it was taken away from us - and Joannie was right ”Don't it only go to show that you don't know what you got till it's gone – they paved paradise and put up a parking lot.”

A question – a statement – I ask on The Radio and in my other writings is: ”Is mankind ready to live in Paradise?” I am – are you. My cosmic Blue Waves are sent to you all on the Big Blue Astral; breathe them in... enjoy them. Have a Bluetiful Day – your friend, George.

George McKane
15 Posted 19/07/2020 at 10:25:34
I am sitting at my writing desk, missing the 'going' to the game... listening to Van, letting myself float out into The Mistral – and for no other reason except sheer pleasure:

"The coolness of the riverbank, and the whispering of the reeds
Daybreak is not so very far away
Enchanted and spellbound, in the silence they lingered
And rowed the boat as the light grew steadily strong
And the birds were silent, as they listened for the heavenly music
And the river played the song
The wind in the willows and the piper at the gates of dawn
The wind in the willows and the piper at the gates of dawn
The song dream happened and the cloven hoofed piper
Played in that holy ground where they felt the awe and wonder
And they all were unafraid of the great god Pan
And the wind in the willows and the piper at the gates of dawn
The wind in the willows and the piper at the gates of dawn"

Gary Willock
16 Posted 19/07/2020 at 10:46:39
Well said.

Nothing wrong with wanting us to do well, but a little perspective is always needed. This is a tough league, and when Carlo joined we where third from bottom, after multiple managers in multiple years. No amount of moaning is going to change that past, so start looking towards the future. There will be bumps. Herr Jurgen has bumps. Alex Ferguson had bumps.

In terms of players, the boo boys always have their targets. Hibbert, Osman, Barkley, and now Davies are all examples of those suffering from the bullying.

Never understood how shouting “Barkley, you are fucking shit” as he was about to take a corner was ever going to do anything but alienate the player. More likely it alienates the entire team, and then we whine that they don't break their backs for us.

By all means have an opinion that someone else should be starting, have an opinion that we need better players in certain positions, but the hatred some show has no positive outcome.

Probably a pointless post and comment though overall; many of the people showing the hatred and negativity are just going to do the same to this post. Only their opinion will matter in their heads. They pay money, so they'll treat people the way they want.

Tony Abrahams
17 Posted 19/07/2020 at 10:51:16
I've wrote before about the four young lads who used to travel everywhere around the country to watch Everton play alongside myself and my great match-partner.

These kids, my sons, my friends son and nephew, had over 60 years service between them, it will be closer to 70 now, because only two of them still travel all over the place, despite never seeing us win a trophy.

We have been a museum for a long time now, Kenwright chose the wrong words when he must have fed Farhad this line, and still the fans keep travelling.

Ask fans of any club, even people who dislike us, and without telling lies, I'd say they must all respect Everton, for it's very loyal support, especially the “travelling blue army” which must definitely be amongst the finest in the land.

I don't travel away no more, age has made me wiser, or maybe more boring? But I honestly can't justify going away to watch this current group of players, even though travelling away is one of life's great pleasures.

Blame the fans for being desperate, but thinking about it logically, maybe this desperation would ease if the players, showed that same pride, instead of exasperating us at times because they don't even look bothered.

It's easy blaming our fans, Ricky, especially if you ever listen to those condescending kopites. Evertonians have really stood the test of time, and deserve better!

Chris James
18 Posted 19/07/2020 at 11:00:10
Totally agree, Ricky. Constructive criticism and frustrated passion is one thing, but the relentless moaning and slagging of individual players and staff is corrosive. Likewise, the pressure we put on our players at Goodison after the first misplaced pass is incredible.

People pay their money and have their right to air views of course, but like you, I'd like a little more positivity.

Right now we have wealthy benefactors, a new stadium in the offing, a genuinely world-renowned manager, a decent director of football and a few players of genuine quality (I'd suggest Richarlison, Pickford, Digne and Gomes), plus some very promising youngsters (Calvert-Lewin, Holgate, Gordon, Kean).

Yes, there are too many average players that have been brought in on too large wages or just haven't worked out, but that's football, who thought Sigurdsson would become so 'meh'? Who knew Gbamin would be instantly crocked?

Yes, there's a LOT of work to be done, the last few weeks have been disappointing and our form since the restart hasn't been good enough. But there's just one week left and then we have 5-6 weeks to shake things up. I for one am looking forward to see what Carlo and Marcel can do in the summer and hoping 20-21 will see us push onward.

Tony Abrahams
19 Posted 19/07/2020 at 11:49:44
I like your posts Chris, and agree that Goodison Park must be a hard place to play at, even for the home players sometimes. But the contradiction must be that we would have surely been relegated in the past if we hadn't gained enough points at Goodison Park?

The first misplaced pass has never turned the fans; it never will. Lack of ability? We all want more, but I'd say 90% realise it's not always possible.

I've seen Everton get clapped off when they've lost; I've seen anger in the performance when we've won; but nowadays I just see frustration, because the fans are so desperate, and 'want' is slowly being replaced by 'need'.

Only one thing will change this, and that is a very, very, very committed team. A team that plays for the fans and the jersey will always be accepted by Evertonians, as Coleman quite rightly said. It's these overpriced and overpaid players who have been getting away with it for years.

It's easy blaming the crowd once it turns, but look at the last few games behind closed doors. The only way to describe this current crop, is by saying they look lost.

Mike Connolly
20 Posted 19/07/2020 at 12:03:16
Don't know about the fans getting behind the players. If it wasn't for the fans, we would be relegated or scrapping above the relegation zone.

Before the lockdown our own fans were saying, it's our fault because we get on players' backs at the game. However, since we've returned we have been playing some of the worse football we have seen for a long time, without the fans.

I said in a previous thread A united fan said to me, when it resumes Everton will struggle the most without fans at the match. He said he hated going to Goodison it was very intimidating and that's why you're very hard to beat at home.

Looking at the way it has panned out, he is right.

Dave Abrahams
21 Posted 19/07/2020 at 12:11:44
Anthony (13),

A very loud “Hear, Hear, mate!”

Andrew Keatley
22 Posted 19/07/2020 at 12:34:14
This? Again? Feels like this site is obsessed with this type of discussion/thread.

We're not all the same, and that is fine. Some fans are very direct, even relentless, in their criticism – at the game, online, in person – wherever. Others just want to send out warmth and positivity to the players and club. Both are equally fine, as is everything else in-between. Anything that constitutes abuse is obviously too far.

Please stop telling other fans how best to support the club. We do not need to homogenise, and anyone who wants to condition other supporters to fall in line with their own approach is not being very realistic about the diverse make-up of a very large number of people.

You do what you think is appropriate, and let other people do as they see fit. Shining a light on the fans, with the club and team in the current state it is, seems to me to be a red herring.

Mike Doyle
23 Posted 19/07/2020 at 12:37:10
Lot of disappointed posters on the site at present. We need to get over the massive loss of Delph for the last 2 games and look for positives.
Brent Stephens
24 Posted 19/07/2020 at 12:41:56
Yes, Anthony #13 – well said.

And, George, I miss you and your "Van". Come back again soon!

Stephen Vincent
25 Posted 19/07/2020 at 12:45:09
John #6, It's not a modern thing, the Worldwide Web just makes it feel that way.

Back in the early '80s, if ToffeeWeb had existed, the calls for Howard's head would have been long and loud. The Live Forum would have been full of complaints and nasty comments about Peter Reid and how we should never have paid Bolton so much for a useless crock.

I can even remember my father, who was Blue through and through, standing in his seat in the upper Gwladys Street Stand and screaming at Sharpie that he couldn't hit a 'cow's arse with a banjo' during a disgraceful 2-1 home defeat to Sunderland.

So there is nothing new about the abuse, it just amplified 1,000s of times. People jump on bandwagons. Before the internet, you perhaps got to vent your anger with family, friends and a few work mates. If you were really lucky, you might get on the radio or have a letter published in the Echo.

Remember the abuse Big Joe got as a 16-year-old? The absolute horrors hurled at Derek Temple. Cliff Marshall was crucified, not because he was black, but that he had the temerity to replace Latchford in a cup tie at Plymouth.

I could go on but you get the point. These guys are watched live by 40,000 people every week who earn a tiny fraction of what the guys on the pitch earn. Is it surprising, when they see complete disinterest on the pitch, that fans react in the way they do? We just want the same passion on the pitch that there is in the stands.

Darren Hind
26 Posted 19/07/2020 at 12:52:03
Ricky,

You've got this a little arse about face, lad. It's more likely that the club is killing the fans.

Evertonian's don't want much these days. I personally would settle for having a team I could be proud of. One which put a smile on neutral faces because they always know we have come to play. One which didn't cower in the face of even the weakest of opposition.

The occasional trip to Wembley and a few European nights under the Goodison Park lights would be nice, as would going to the grounds of the big boys and leaving them with the occasional bloody nose

"Irrational expectations" and "impatience" they tell me. We've waited 25 years and have spent enough to pay off the national debt.

Trust me when I tell you: There is a far greater chance of this club being the death of me.

Grant Rorrison
27 Posted 19/07/2020 at 13:10:29
Darren 26. Never had you down as a Martinez fan, Darren, but you've perfectly described his reign until Moyes's loser players (Jagielka, Howard, Distin, etc) and the negativity in the stands curtailed it prematurely. Aided and abetted by that weak man (Moshiri) we have running the club currently.
Tom Bowers
28 Posted 19/07/2020 at 13:28:32
We all want the same thing but all have different opinions about how to get it, as do all the managers we have had since the Kendall glory days, but honestly blaming the fans is ridiculous.

Things are compounded by the success of RS and we have to bite the bullet on that score but as another awful season draws to a close we all, as ever dearly hope that next season sees a turnaround.

Carlo has the credentials and, now that he sees the crap for all it's worth, he can make things happen to put things right.

That's easier said than done no matter what manager you have but he has to be brave and try to turf out the debris that is not performing on the pitch. These last few games have shown an even uglier side of the Everton demise with very little intensity shown and a lethargy that would look bad at the poor end of the Championship.

Tony Abrahams
29 Posted 19/07/2020 at 14:05:21
Grant @27, that's not how I saw it mate.

I remember losing to Sunderland with ten men, and Martinez's Everton being clapped off the pitch because they were very unlucky, and looked like the team with the extra player that day.

I remember beating QPR, the next season, and the crowd turning because the team stopped playing, started conserving energy and it was exasperating to watch.

The mantra changed, he had one eye on Europe, and his team stopped playing with any kind of intensity.

I liked Martinez, but he only had himself to blame for the way things turned, and it's been downhill for Everton ever since the Crystal Palace game, except for the end of last season, which was again spoilt by the summer's poor recruitment

Grant Rorrison
30 Posted 19/07/2020 at 14:29:10
Tony 29. The negativity I was referring to was in his 3rd season where seemingly the fans wanted him gone from the beginning, regardless of actual performances or results, both of which were not that bad for the bulk of the season. We made it to the semi-final of the League Cup and were in the top 7 or 8 of the league until the end of February. We also got the semi-final of the FA Cup. We should have won both ties and the players visibly bottled them.

Obviously he would switch attention to the Europa League as we had little chance of making the top 4 after an indifferent start and that represented our best chance of silverware and a Champions League place. The least said about Kiev, the better.

Brian Williams
31 Posted 19/07/2020 at 14:36:38
The "abuse" – if that's what it is – is no different or worse than on any other team's fansites; and yes, I regularly visit others out of curiosity, so I'm talking from first-hand experience.

The clubs mentioned as being "together" are "together" for the very obvious reason that they're either very successful, or have been recently, apart from Bournemouth of course – and their fans are "together" simply because their expectations are extremely low and they're just happy being in the Premier League... for now!

The question I'd ask is: "Are our expectations (not hopes or wishes) too high?"

Like the small print reads on investment sites: "past performance is no guarantee of future results."

Is the fact that we were successful 35 years ago reason to "expect" the same now?

Martin Mason
32 Posted 19/07/2020 at 16:25:19
The reasonable hope and aspire; the selfish expect and demand. It's a human failing – not a football fan failing. If we expect and demand, then we're following the wrong club.

1970 and 1985 make us a club with a history – that's all.

Brian Williams
33 Posted 19/07/2020 at 16:44:14
Agreed, Martin!
Kieran Kinsella
34 Posted 19/07/2020 at 16:53:12
Ricky,

Complete rubbish.

Firstly, the obvious, how is abuse and negativity affecting Sigurdsson and Co if the stadium is empty?

Secondly, on the unity front, Man Utd fans actually founded a new club. such was their internal rife after the Glazers took over.

Leeds? Unity? Have you checked in on them in the time between their Champions League semi-final appearance and yesterday? A lot of trouble, pain and anguish has been going on there for 14 years.

Also, you criticize our negative mindset to then suggest every ref and the media our against us. Really, you believe there is a societal obsession with bashing Everton, like no-one has better things to do, or better teams to conspire against? You are the one with the warped mindset if that's your view.

Lastly, Kenshite? A charlatan narcissist who started a whispering campaign to steal the club from Johnson. Big Dunc? One of our own? Wouldn't even train as a player – now, he's above reproach?

I've heard it all if you as a fan say we are the problem.

Daniel A Johnson
35 Posted 19/07/2020 at 17:14:02
Rubbish, Ricky,

It's the sitting on your arse and accepting mediocrity that has got us in this predicament over the last 20 years.

Everton FC has become a comfy place for overpaid players who like to hide. It's a holiday camp for overrated players who want to pick up big wages. We need to hold them accountable for what they produce on the pitch and the general lack of any shits given by the lot of them lately.

Mike Connolly
36 Posted 19/07/2020 at 17:14:12
Well said, Kieran.
Kieran Kinsella
37 Posted 19/07/2020 at 17:26:39
Martin Mason,

“1970 and 1985 make us a club with history – that is all.”

Wow, what a cynical dismissal of Dixie Dean et al.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

38 Posted 19/07/2020 at 17:34:50
Sorry Ricky, but from the title to the content of your post, this hasn't got an awful lot going for it.

The title alone is provocative enough. The fans are the lifeblood of the club, not its killer.

You start off by saying ‘we create our own reality', adding ‘it's true that we are not a 'fashionable' club', believing ‘most commentators, pundits and referees dislike us.'

In those words, aren't you displaying exactly the same ‘victim mentality' you go on to criticise fellow Blues as showing?

Yours is a very naïve view if, as your words imply, fans should never be critical of their own. You are also exceedingly naïve if, as you again attempt to imply, that other clubs' supporters do not display the same traits. They do.

There has never been one single player, one single manager, director of football, owner, chairman, board member or whatever at Everton that has been exempt from criticism. Not one.

Nor do you make it clear if your condemnation of fellow supporters is directed at the match-going fan, or those that comment on social media, or both.

In a match day crowd of 40,000 there will invariably be some who are naturally given to criticising. Does that make them the majority and so typical?

If your criticism is aimed at fans commenting on social media, then quite frankly, more fool you. Because any social medium platform – including TW – is not truly representative of the fan base. It is by its very nature reactionary, never more so than during a live game.

The same way regular match-goers will know the reaction of the impossible-to-please fan they have the misfortune to sit near should a particular player fail in any way, so it is here on TW.

You can predict with near 100% accuracy who will quickly badmouth the manager before, during and after the game. Who will condemn their particular player scapegoat. Who cannot post without referencing Bill Kenwright as the devil incarnate. Who will be largely mute in good times. And who will be the loudest and most disgruntled in bad times.

None of them can be considered singularly representative of the entire Everton nation.

Of course it's not helpful at the match to get on a player's back. But that is the arena professional footballers perform in. They expect hostility from opposition supporters, if not their own. But is it so loud, continued and vitriolic that players ever hear or take heed of it? Only in extremely rare cases, I would suggest. Most players say they are so concentrated on the game that they block out the crowd.

The same is true of social media. Many players say they neither read the press nor social media because those making judgement simply have no idea what they are talking about.

So no, Ricky. I think you overstate the negativity of some fans by describing their ‘sick mentality' as contagious, that impacts on players and performances, whilst clearly expressing a ‘victim's' mentality yourself.

Nor does your line ‘If you class yourself as a fan, then let's support Everton' wash with me.

What you are effectively saying and doing is elevating yourself as being a superior type of fan to anyone who doesn't conform to the way you support Everton.

You're not. You're just another punter, like the rest of us.

Mike Gaynes
39 Posted 19/07/2020 at 17:39:22
Anthony #13, Tony #19 and Andrew #22, all great posts with different perspectives. Applause, gentlemen.
Paul Hewitt
40 Posted 19/07/2020 at 17:41:53
I ain't backing a load of lazy good-for-nothing slackers. If I saw an ounce of effect, I would. But these players have given up weeks ago.
Joe McMahon
41 Posted 19/07/2020 at 17:56:24
Lots if issues here, guys. For me, I feel (IMO) too much acceptance of dross for many many years.

From fans still peddling out "at least Bill's a Blue", to the many that accepted Moyes for 11 years, and our pitiful record vs Liverpool.

Then there are those still talking regularly about the '60s and '80s; literally, those days are decades ago.

It's fair to say the club is in a huge mess, having lost ground on many teams, and finishing below Burnley (again). People put down Leicester's Premier League title as a one-off, not sure what that says about our non-existence since the FA Cup 25 years ago.

Finally, I feel our last chance went with the failure of Kings Dock. We would have been in a lot better situation now.

Andy Crooks
42 Posted 19/07/2020 at 17:58:31
Ricky, I honestly don't think I am killing the club. I think the club is being killed by the cowards and thieves who have turned up after lockdown and stolen a living from Everton.

Not one of them, not a fucking one is fit to wear the shirt. Have you watched a match? Have you seen how utterly devoid of passion they are? Do you think a single one of them gives a flying fuck?

I have watched a lot of football lately and I am embarrassed by the specimens who have turned out for Everton. They are shameless. Address your next post to them.

Joe McMahon
43 Posted 19/07/2020 at 18:07:30
Andy @42, well said; no-one can argue with that.
Jay Harris
47 Posted 19/07/2020 at 18:39:14
Ricky, I love the sentiment but I have 2 things to say: NSNO and 25 years.

I actually believe if they put a cardboard cutout of the great Sir John Moores in the boardroom he would do a better job than Kenwright.

That is honesty not vindictiveness. I am a grown man and EFC under this charlatan have brought me more embarrassment and upset than any other events in my life such is how Everton touches me.

The only changes since the "good old days" are social media and a faster pace of life.

Dissatisfaction of below par performances are out there much more now.

The only consolation for the poor dears getting criticised is they become mega millionaires no matter how badly they perform. Where else could a penniless actor get so many millions for incompetency? Where else can teenage kids get $40,000 plus a week, yes a week, for doing what we would all love to do Kick a ball around all week.

I don't feel any hatred towards them and I certainly don't condone booing anybody playing in a blue shirt – just frustration that they are representing my club and not doing a very good job of it.

Peter Gorman
50 Posted 19/07/2020 at 19:03:01
I think the fans will start giving a shit about the players when they start giving a shit about the fans.
Ken Kneale
51 Posted 19/07/2020 at 19:04:48
Jay I suspect you speak for many with such comments.

No doubt the author of this article has honestly held beleif but his views are out of touch with many and naive to most who remember when Everton had some standing in football.

The fans have been let down multiple times in recent decades and indeed, far from being the problem, are the likely reason we have stayed in the top flight, such is the passion generated.

I know not nor speculate on the author's motivation for this headline but, in my view, it is incomprehensible.

Martin Mason
53 Posted 19/07/2020 at 20:51:30
The fans let down? The fans have no right to success and that is what I mean by totally irrational expectation.

Know yer History? Then know that yer history is irrelevant unless you get points for it. The club is important for us fans but we fans become less important as time passes.

This is not the time to demand but to accept. If you demand success, then go and watch a Sky club; you may then have some right to demand.

I'm an Evertonian because I love the club, its history and its current problems. I'd love to see us do better but see the big picture of where we are in the real world and the resource restraints that limit us.

Kieran Kinsella
54 Posted 19/07/2020 at 21:25:03
Martin,

The club hype the fans up and drive their expectations with marketing to sell tickets and merchandise. I've never once seen season tickets marketed on the basis that “The history is irrelevant, the team is crap. If you don't like it, support a good club.”

When Kenwright started his campaign to ouster Johnson, we had just won the FA Cup. Kenwright never once implied that his takeover would be funded on borrowed peanuts and result in an empty cabinet.

When Moshiri came on board, he was hailed by the club as the financial clout we were missing in order to be successful. They never said he was going to come on board just to waste money and stagnate.

The club also falsely offered up promises of various failed stadium projects. They said we wouldn't sell Rooney, or Barkley. They boasted about record spends on Lukaku and Sigurdsson. All of this drives excitement and hype.

Imagine if they were hawking a big-budget war movie then played reruns of Dad's Army? People would rightly complain. Moreover, your suggestion we support another club if we want success, well what club is that? By definition, every success is history... so there is no guarantee Liverpool or Man City will win anything ever again.

Darren Hind
55 Posted 19/07/2020 at 21:53:39
Football is an unrehearsed live entertainment. Anybody who forks out 500 quid to watch a team which doesn't even try to play the game is being cheated and he or she is every bit as entitled to be critical as the guy who has paid to see a crap performance at a theatre or to watch an unfunny comedian.

Older fight fans will remember a guy called Joe Bugner. Joe was exceptionally talented. Good feet. Very very difficult to hit cleanly. He was good enough to climb into the ring with all-time greats like Ali, Frazier and Lyle. He took them all the distance.

Earnie Shavers managed to stop him but even that was down to a cut rather than a Shavers bomb; Bugner (of Hungarian origin) should have been the darling of the UK Fight scene. but the fans simply couldn't take to him.

He'd taken "Our 'enry's" title (Henry Cooper) with a dodgy points decision, but the reason he was such an unpopular boxer was, he wouldn't fight. He would cover up, smother up, tie up, but all too often, he left the fight fans feeling cheated. He was taking all these great men the distance, but he was doing it by default... He wouldn't fight them.

The Yanks despised him: "Did you guys not tell him he is supposed to throw some punches?"

For the past five years, Everton have been an easy-to-hit Joe Bugner. We have been cheating the public. we don't come to fight... we come to survive.

Actually, that's probably a little harsh on big Joe. At least he would open up and fight against lesser opponents and was capable of handing out a battering. We don't even do that.

Barry Rathbone
56 Posted 19/07/2020 at 21:54:28
From reading many clubs' fanzine/forums over years my conclusion is all fans are EXACTLY the same cliches are uttered verbatim across the Premier League.

Before Klopp started winning, he got pelters for any disappointment at Red Shite Towers; their togetherness (or lack of) is contingent on success – just like any other club.

There is a uniqueness about our fanbase stemming from our pedigree and it is the modern perception outsiders have of what we are happy with. It bears no relation to the reality. New players and managers collapse like a deck of cards once the honeymoon period subsides and this reality kicks in.

Phil Neville had his "What do they expect?" moment, Koeman was bemused by criticism of his commitment for staying on holiday. Allardyce got arsey because 8th and "saving" the club was not met with a bronze statue. Only Bobby Brown Shoes "got it" but wasn't funded as per Moshiri, so disintegrated.

I suggest Sigurdsson has suffered from it and possibly Schneiderlin – players with previous good reputations turning to mush under the reality of expectations at Everton.

It's no surprise we had Gray and Reid driving our 80s zenith – they couldn't give a shit about such matters and just got stuck in.

Nothing we can do about it is the reason we have avoided relegation despite being absolutely cack imo. Accept it as a positive. But make sure we sign players of character as well as being able to play.

Kieran Kinsella
57 Posted 19/07/2020 at 22:15:10
Barry

You’re right at it’s not just football. In Kansas City the MLS team were gods when I arrived, then the baseball team, then the NFL, before and after each was subjected to the same platitudes you read on here

Paul Hewitt
58 Posted 19/07/2020 at 23:15:09
I see Rob Halligans posts have been taken down. Very strange. Nothing he said was out of order. I would like to know why they were?.
Paul Birmingham
59 Posted 20/07/2020 at 00:22:54
There was a time, a fairly recent time, but now for me, there, long lost times, when the river ran Blue, and times were good.

The club has got to realise its place and appreciate only hard work, planning and research can build good foundations for any business and football club.

Hopefully the board will get real, and forget the past, as I am a prisoner of the past, but the club must forge a new belief and sense of being.

History is great but Everton must make new, very soon, as unless we don't, we will become, a club, locked in pergatory.

It can be done but the EFC board, must start, and start now to rebuild, and start an Everton, renniassaince, with the best prospective manager we’ve had in the chair in years.

In Carlo Ancellotti and EFC board, we trust.

Bill Gall
60 Posted 20/07/2020 at 00:56:19
The difference in today's fans from from the fans of the 50/60/70/80/90/ and even the 2000 fans, is in the earlier years you would got to the game, vent your feelings and after the game go to the pub, have a pint if we had won or lost there would be a discussion on the game, and go out Saturday night meet with friends, and sometimes you would talk about the game until your wife said, haven't you got anything else to talk about.
Today with the social media you can complain at the game, after the game, and every day and night before the next game.

I don't believe the supporters pick on players anymore than before, its just that supporters have the platform to complain from Europe to America and get answers to agree and disagree. ToffeeWeb is a prime example.

Nicholas Ryan
61 Posted 20/07/2020 at 02:03:38
If you want to improve in any walk of life, you usually do so, by observing and copying from, the best.

Unpalatable though it may be, that means Liverpool at the moment; any team that wins the EPL by 25 or so points, is clearly doing something right.

My son's rugby coach [a New Zealander] said that the All Blacks are not usually a team of mercurial geniuses [like the French]. What they do, is master the basics; they do the simple things to perfection and they do so, at breakneck speed.

Watching LFC this season, I have noticed two things; how few passes go astray and the speed at which they get from one end of the pitch to the other.

This LFC team is not a collection of Johan Cruyffs, they are a side who have mastered the basics and carry them out at speed.

We need to speed things up [fewer back passes?] and make sure that each pass goes where it is meant to.

Mastering the basics will bring confidence, confidence will breed character and determination; once these things are in place, we can move on.

The big question is; whether the current squad can deliver these [fairly modest] requirements?

I think that Ancelotti has decided the answer is mostly, No. Therefore, there might be quite a lot of activity in the coming 'window'.

There are some wrongs that need righting. Luckily, in my view, we have one of the best managers in the recent history of the game [you don't win 3 Champions Leagues by chance] and must have confidence, that he is the man who can and will, do it.

Steven Sturm
62 Posted 20/07/2020 at 02:05:50
John Raftery (6) nails it. Knee jerk reactions are not the answer. We've gone to manager of the moment and that needs to stop. Give Carlo time to sort this out. Deep rudder time.
Patrick McFarlane
63 Posted 21/07/2020 at 12:19:11
I can well understand this clarion call to the fans but, whatever way the fans choose to express their views – unless they happen to prefer another club – all of them want Everton to be successful more than virtually – and for some, literally – above anything else in their lives.

When Evertonians see that the desire, appetite, etc are lacking from their team, they will rightly be up in arms about it. The supporters usually apportion the blame for the lack of those basic elements being absent on the shoulders of the incumbent manager.

There are not so many sets of fans who are as patient as Evertonians have been for such a long period of time; they have seen too many seasons of unsatisfactory displays and results, too many seasons which have ended before the end of January, too many failed big-money signings and, in recent times, too much change for change's sake.

When Everton next produces a team that the fans know will fight tooth and nail to earn a positive result, when that team starts to display the right attitude and shows the fortitude to withstand pressure, when that team also produces good football on a regular basis, then Evertonians might display what the author of the article asks for.

To expect the fans to display uncritical views when most of the above qualities are absent is asking a lot of supporters – who are, after all, only spectators and observers and have very little direct impact on how the team performs on a regular basis.

This particular version of Everton wasn't very good in front of full-houses and this current team hasn't been any better in empty grounds, ergo the fans haven't got as much influence as some seem to believe.

However, being part of a Goodison full-house and having the whole crowd right behind the team can't come soon enough for all of us. The fans will be ready for it; it's up to the management and the team to light that particular blue touch paper.


Christine Foster
64 Posted 22/07/2020 at 08:20:40
Those of us who have been around for a few years have grown up on winning titles and cups. Most certainly the fans of those eras voiced their displeasure and satisfaction both at the ground and in the media. Today, the anonymity of the net allows fans to voice abuse to a level unseen in content or quantity.

However they have a case. I understand Martin's pragmatic view of life but to categorize expectation as selfish undermines completely the need to hope.

But having been lied too, misled and dismissed by the club, its chairman and staff in the past god knows how many years, do you really think that fans should just roll over and accept the crap both on the pitch and how the club has been run?

The facts relating to the above are well documented and the abuse of the fans has led to anger and a rift between the fans and the club we love, we may support the players (when they give everything they can, irrespective of the result) but we are far more suspect of the quality of leadership at all levels we have had to suffer for the past 25 years.

I said before, years ago in fact, that the only way to heal the rift was a clean sweep at the top and a club united with its fans and direction.

With Carlo in and Moshiri's money we have a base to build on but we have yet to deliver on the pitch, hardly surprising given the culmination of managers, purchases and sheer poor strategy.

I believe the fans do have a right to believe in their team, they have the right to expectations given they are directly or indirectly, paying fans (customers) of Everton the business. There is always a line to be drawn in the sand of justifiable frustration and anger and abuse, is there not the case that the club had added to the frustration and anger over the years too with the way it has acted in relation to its fan base?

The abuse will, in my opinion, only subside when the players are fully committed in effort if not skill, and when the broom finally sweeps the deadwood in the boardroom too.

A new era is upon us; we want to believe it can happen, we will support the players, the manager and the boardroom as one but trust takes a long time to heal.

Ste Traverse
65 Posted 22/07/2020 at 13:21:12
I can see what the OP is getting at but is obviously a happy-clapper. But if he thinks fans of other clubs are 'together' than he's clearly not visited sites of other clubs. They are just as vicious as any of ours when things aren't going well.

But overall my opinion is if you stump up cash for a season ticket then you've a right to air your views whether it's in praise or criticism. There's no point kidding yourself everything is rosey in the Goodison garden when it clearly isn't.

Tony Shelby
66 Posted 22/07/2020 at 13:35:45
My attitude to the club tends to reflect the attitude of the players on the pitch.

If there is real effort and spirit then, regardless of the result, I am 100% behind them.

When they're total and utter dog shit then I'm a tad less supportive!

Jay Woods
67 Posted 22/07/2020 at 13:35:48
He opens with, "We create our own reality". Straight off the bat, total and utter codswallop.

Moving on, unconditional backing of the club is not the same as loyalty; it's carte blanche for the club's hierarchy to foul things up as they see fit, whereas loyalty also permits stricture when things are not being run right.

Every single Evertonian who sat and applauded Kenwright that day is a partaker in the blame that is his due for what he has presided over. Some would go further and call them useful idiots (which is how the club's top brass at that time probably viewed them), of the same mindset as those who think protesting is "Kopite" (but so is winning trophies), all of whom deserve the "acceptable" level of crapness forever associated with Kenwright.

Jerome Shields
68 Posted 23/07/2020 at 09:07:11
Those that supported Everton when they where a better and challenging team, know the difference from what we see now. There are reasons and they can only be versed in terms of the obvious faults we see.

It is important to criticise highly paid professionals, because they can quite easily go along lifting their wages, never thinking of making the effort of trying to win anything. Many such players will hope that they are picked out by a Club that can win something, getting the corresponding higher wages and slice of the transfer fee.

This is prevented by high Club expectations driven by the fans and taken up by the Club Management both on and of the pitch. Everton fans have always known that Everton belonged in the high echelons of the Premier League and Europe, they have been reasonable in accepting the apparently reasonable limits that the Management have put forward for a delay in achieving this. But it has now wore thin as they realise that incompetence and a culture of being happy with their lot has been the real reason. Naturally this is unacceptable.

The fans now support any progress being made and absolutely rightly slaughter those with a perceived wrong attitude or a return to the mid-table status quo these parties seem to yearn for.

It is never the fans that kill the Club, it's the Management that can't be bothered to make the effort to produce performances to the highest standards required in any competition the Club enters.

This is the case with Everton, more so than any other Premier League side.

Paul Richards
69 Posted 23/07/2020 at 14:14:07
A fresh take on the "supporters should support" ethos that is heard from a number of fans now and again, usually after something has caused a crescendo of critical comment from the lashing tongues of ToffeeWeb.

But here's where I see a problem: To 'support' them all in the ways you request, Ricky, it means getting behind everything they do, no matter what. It means not offering up any form of analysis, skepticism or critical thinking -- unless it has a positive spin or can be passed off as being 'constructive'.

I think a lot of fans are understandably torn by this dichotomy. They know they should be supportive as you suggest... They don't want to join the legions of enemy fans, commentaters and pundits who are quick to judge and who would do us down. But they also know that what they see before them is wrong in so many ways, be it on or off the field... and they may feel duty bound to at least discuss it with like-minded and concerned fans who want to do the same.

What's better for the club? To turn a blind eye and be a "happy clapper"? Instead of a critical fan with lofty expectations? I think it's an individual choice that we have to make as fans. Although in truth, it's more a reaction than a choice, I suspect, that reflects one's own personality, values and aspirations.

The desire to understand and then make educated judgement calls on the fundamental inner workings of the club, extending to all aspects of what the club does at all levels. I see that as the way I personally am driven to express my 'support' for, fascination with, and overwhelming interest in this club. And the number of fans posting on ToffeeWeb, in response to the the vast array of information and comment they publish, while keeping a lot of the malicious kopites and the like at bay — rather than "killing this club", they are doing a brilliant job of sustaining fans like me.

Terry White
70 Posted 23/07/2020 at 16:01:54
Ralph (#5), precisely ho much money has Mr Kenwright made "out of the club"?
Michael Lynch
71 Posted 23/07/2020 at 16:25:09
This article falls into the trap of believing Everton fans are different to fans of any other club. We're not. Everyone slags off the team and management when the results and performances are shit.

The only difference between us and the fans of our rivals is that we're better looking, funnier, smarter, and don't set fire to the Royal Liver Building.

Patrick McFarlane
72 Posted 23/07/2020 at 16:29:37
Terry # 70

I would think that Ralph is referring to the sale of Bill's shares to Mr Moshiri – which even allowing for inflation must have given Mr Kenwright a tidy profit on his original investment and helped him to repay that mortgage he took out on his house in order to purchase Everton FC?

Jon Wit
73 Posted 23/07/2020 at 16:49:03
People go on the internet to vent, which is magnified by trolls, so it is pretty easy to lose perspective across football and everything else. Wind yourself up, blame it on Player X, all part of the entertainment.

The club is underachieving with the resources expended – I doubt many would disagree at this point.

Equally, with the current management team and squad, we can win matches and haven't been in freefall – not our worst period in the last 10 years.

Clive Rogers
74 Posted 23/07/2020 at 18:29:24
Terry, #70, I believe he sold his shares for about £48M to Moshiri. The four blue holdings paid £20M to Peter Johnston when they bought the club, I assume about £5M each. So to date he has made roughly £43M. Don’t forget he still has shares left, of about 4%, so there is more to come for him.
Simon Dalzell
75 Posted 26/07/2020 at 17:57:45
The biggest load of shite I've ever read. Totally the wrong way around.
Ken Kneale
76 Posted 27/07/2020 at 08:14:01
After yesterday's (seemingly now normal) abysmal performance with little effort, skill or guts, it is certainly not the fans killing this club – the players and directors have done the job already!
Tony Abrahams
77 Posted 27/07/2020 at 08:33:38
I read about Klopp a lot on these pages, he's done this, he's done that, and it got me thinking about the first thing of significance that he really did.

He slagged the fans for leaving early, and told them they needed them until the end. A late equaliser against West Brom was followed by an over the top celebration, but it began to unite the players and the fans.

The enemy is always within, and hopefully we now have an Italian to weed this out. I've watched a lot of movies and this is usually second nature to an Italian so hopefully this also happens in real life because the real life actor at Everton has never united our fans, and a football club always has to be united if it wants real success.

I can't prove how much money Kenwright made but I know we've won fuck all in 25 years, and still he gets defended. Sickening or Unbelievable? I'd say both.

Lee Brownlie
78 Posted 29/07/2020 at 04:04:42
Agree with you, but also Simon Harrison (#1) regarding Big Bill. We've grown, or are looking to grow, or, better put, really need to grow, beyond him. No problem him being around, he clearly wants to be, but he's become just another sign of outdated old times.

We just can't be plucky little mostly skint but battling Everton anymore, not even alluding to it, if we want to truly progress, plus fill and do justice to our new stadium in what we all hope will be momentous times a-coming. Fact.

Sorry Bill, no bitterness towards you (from me at least), thanks and all that for trying, even... but time to let go and allow this historic club to us really get running in this top tier race once again!!!

David Currie
79 Posted 31/07/2020 at 18:29:12
Tony 77, Excellent post and well said on Kenwright.
James Stewart
80 Posted 31/07/2020 at 18:53:37
What utter nonsense. We the fans deserve better, not the other way round.

This group of gratuitously overpaid spineless players are the only thing killing this club.

Roman Sidey
81 Posted 01/08/2020 at 08:13:43
One of the big issues in fans having the internet to give a voice is a lot of people in all industries have two major flaws:

1. They see correlation and mistake it for causation.

2. They see issues as having one cause and, therefore, one solution.

The issues at Everton are numerous. The fans are certainly not the biggest issue, but how can fans call themselves part of a club it they don't shoulder some of the responsibility around the place?

The performance on the pitch is ultimately up to the players, nobody else, but the atmosphere in which they exist is highly dependable on fans – at the game, at home, and on the internet. Do you honestly believe that players in this generation don't read the tweets and various other posts about them?

I'm not from Britain, so I don't go to matches or have the ability to rock up to Finch Farm to demand answers like a group of fans did last year. I was stoked when that happened, but wondered why it hadn't happened 10 years earlier.

When Coleman comes out with his pre-prepared quote on improving and working hard, there's too many fans responding with "Good words, Skip" and the like. When players say this type of thing, it's on the fans to hold them accountable.

I'd never begrudge fans getting nostalgic for past successes, but sometimes it is enough to make me – and I imagine others – skip the post or log off altogether. Seriously, the game and everything surrounding it has changed so much since the last time Everton won anything that comparisons are basically useless.

I've been a lot less engaged with Everton and football this season for many reasons. One of those reasons is the supporters. I saw nothing but vitriol for Romelu Lukaku for four years. He's the closest to a contemporary recognisable superstar the club has had in my lifetime – Rooney was here before he was a true superstar and Eto'o here after.

Fast-forward a few years, Lukaku is gone and some of the same people who slagged off the Belgian get their knickers in a knot when others criticise Davies or Calvert-Lewin. What kind of warped fan does that?

Then there's the home crowd. I can only judge from the sound on the TV, but it is pretty clear that a lot of games have a very ordinary atmosphere. One of the most enjoyable matches I've watched on TV was the season opener of 2008-09 against Rovers. We lost that match but the crowd seemed pumped and the players sucked on that energy. Too many other matches, you can hear a pin drop until there's a goal scored.

I'm rambling, so I'll end by saying the board, management and playing staff at Everton have performed to an unacceptable level for too long now, but that doesn't mean some fans couldn't take an introspective moment to see what they could do better too.

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