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Once Were Blues

By Cindy Cole :  25/07/2007 :  Comments (152) :

?So this is it, Everton, your number?s up! Time to pack your bags, move on, get out of here! You may have been the original team in the city, but your successors are more worthy. It was nice having you but you?re not wanted anymore, so now we?d like to bid good riddance to you. There?s plenty of farmland outside this city where you can find somewhere to stay. Be on your way now! Losers! Grazers!?

I?ve observed this stadium debate for some time, and thus far managed to maintain a distance, remain silent, steer clear. However, I can no longer contain my feelings. The awful wrenching in my guts serves as a constant reminder that there is something untoward afoot. This whole ?move? thing stinks of subterfuge and deceit. But hey! What should I expect? This is Everton, after all.

Do we have a choice? Of course we do! If you listen to Keith Wyness, it?s checkmate, no plan B. Vote Kirkby or vote for stagnation. Vote cheap bells and whistles or vote for the unknown. Vote Elastoplast or vote for the future. Might I go on? After having read Mickey Blue Eyes interview with KW it seems the pro-Kirkby propaganda machine knows no bounds. So, if we stay, our ground will be like ?the house that jack built?? ?Yes, yes, of course.? ?So there really is no alternative?? ?No, no?. Bullshit! Have we thoroughly explored all alternatives? No, of course not! Who says Scotty Road isn?t ?deliverable?? The trusty KW?

What disturbs my equanimity the most is the gullibility of those who so readily support the Kirkby move; the ostensible willingness to give in and accept defeat. There are alternatives. I?m sorry but you have clearly had the wool pulled over your eyes, and if the move to Kirkby transpires, it will be down your backs before long! What?s the hurry? GP is not going to fall down. Support will not dwindle whilst we are there, so let?s not act out of desperation. Scotty Road could yet be our salvation. A city centre site, close to Lime Street, ample parking close-by, better access for those South of the Mersey, on the tourist route, and steeped in history to boot!

And to those of you who endorse cry-baby tantrums along the lines of ?LCC don?t care about us, boo-hoo, I?m not playing with them anymore?, or similar such puerility, I say ?where?s your sense of pride? Do you really want to give up all your teddies? If you do, you won?t ever get them back?? Whether Kirkby is a mile, or half a mile, outside the city is not important. What is important, is that it IS outside. Territory is territory. Get real.

Imagine a Liverpool family conversation in 30 years time. ?Mum, why don?t any of my classmates support Everton?? ?Well love, it?s because Everton aren?t from Liverpool. They?re from the sticks. They did originate from Liverpool, apparently, and once there were many blues in the city, but that was a long time ago. Now, they?re known as ?woollies?, or ?out of towners?, and their followers are few and far between, scattered in the Northern echelons of Merseyside and the Southern regions of Lancashire. However, their numbers are known to be declining due to an identity crisis and an inability to conjure support from their old hunting-ground, the city.?

Everton is Liverpool. Not Kirkby, not Bolton, not Manchester. Liverpool is our heritage. It?s where we, as a club, evolved. It?s where we, as supporters, identify; whether we?ve lived there or not; were born there or not. It?s an integral part of our culture, our history. It?s our turf, our territory, and it?s represented on our badge. Wars have started for less! Turn your back on the city and it?ll be the only time you do.

For the best future of Everton Football Club, choose the city. It?s not Kirkby that?s the ?Capital of Culture?. C?mon Blues! Get it right!

Reader Comments

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Tony Marsh
1   Posted 27/07/2007 at 23:36:32

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John tactical voting is what the Lib Dems do when trying to nick a seat of Labour in the Midlands.Fuck the yes vote and lets put this Kirkby bollocks to bed.In all honesty none of us have got a fucking clue what we are voting for.By the way wheres my vote gone it aint dropped on my mat yet?
Steve Jones
2   Posted 28/07/2007 at 04:10:23

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Great article Cindy and puts things into perspective regarding the timescales.

I for one want to know a lot more about the so called "Bestway loop" suggestion that the LCC brought forward - what exactly is on offer? Others have said Bestway is not a small company- this is off their website ;
http://www.bestwaygroup.co.uk

Bestway is... the United Kingdom?s second largest Cash & Carry operator in terms of turnover with Group annual turnover in excess of £1.7 billion; the second largest Cement producer in Pakistan; joint owners of Pakistan?s third largest Bank; the largest overseas Pakistani investor with investments in excess of US$1.0 billion and a global workforce of over 21,000 people spread across four continents.
R Brosnan
3   Posted 28/07/2007 at 04:04:11

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There is of course an alternative and it involves dynamic leadership and vision, the type of which Kenwright has never shown in his time at the helm and never will.

Instead of a David Dein figure who can institute a sense of purpose and drive in everything the club does - which manifests itself ultimately in success on the pitch - we have the bluffer who messed up King’s Dock, NTL and whose greatest innovation was the innovation of the non-existent Fortress Sports Fund to placate fans and save his own hide. Yes, the club has stabilised under his tenure, but that’s as good as it’s going to get.

Given our present reality, Kirkby actually has a lot to recommend it and very well may be the best we can hope for with Kenwright at the helm. The sad thing is the club and fans deserves so much more.

Given the obscene money sloshing around the Premiership right now and the fact that Everton has so much potential (fan base, history, honours, ability to construct a compelling brand/narrative) I cannot see how we would fail to be attractive to an investor with pockets deep enough to revitalize us -

We may mock the United and Liverpool for their American investors but these guys are ploughing ungodly sums of money into these clubs. Which translates into performance on the pitch.

So for me, the real sense of malaise stems not from an imminent move but the fact that the guy in charge just doesn’t cut it.
bluedownunder
4   Posted 28/07/2007 at 04:13:52

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I’ve seen so much of this on here its beginnining to make me physically sick... whats with the obsession with LFC? Whether we like it or not, LFC will always be the apple of LCC’s eye, we are looked upon as ’the other team’ in l’pool, in fact a lot of people outside of l’pool don’t even know there are 2 teams here! And to describe kirkby as the sticks and the residents as woolies...what a ridiculous thing to say! Obviously all you are worried about is reds fans saying ’we are the only team in the city’ WHO CARES! they’ve been saying that since the 60’s anyway! I will say this: if we don’t move and we stay in GP ’waiting for the perfect site’, which may never turn up, meanwhile the redshite move into their shiny new Mega Stadium with a purpose built Kop and get 80,000 to every home game, spending 50 mill on players every summer while we plunder the lower divisions for bargains and frees and loans until we end up losing cahill arteta johnson etc (and probably MOYES) to other teams with more ambition, then we are destined for the championship or worse. If we wait, we also run the risk of getting a site but not being able to get the funds to put a stadium on it! Remember Kings Dock? I suspect a lot of the players at EFC who have recently signed long term contracts would expect to be in a new ground before their contracts expire, if we don’t move, I am willing to bet they will! Forget about LFC, forget waiting, lets start afresh with some real ambition for once! Unless you want to be forever in LFC’s shadow!
Andrew H
5   Posted 28/07/2007 at 05:04:39

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Got to say, I think I’m turning againts the idea of moving. This article hit me across the face and made me realize.

So crazy thought....what if an independant reliable bank set up a trust and evertonians around the world chipped in what they wanted towards new stadium fund....and the amount would rise in real time, being broadcast over the internet. I know its crazy but think about it. Say 100,000 people chipped in few hundred bob... we’d be adding up. May take time but efc could be the first club truly supported by the people. I know, I know....it was a crazy thought.
Susan
6   Posted 28/07/2007 at 05:27:27

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I have been reading the above posts. I spent the first 28 years of my life (born &bred) in UK. I knew about Everton, Liverpool, Manchester U and City, West Ham Chelsea etc etc but i must admit i didnt know that Everton were a Liverpool Club, I knew that they were a ’top’ club but not where they were based. What I’m trying to say is that it doesnt really matter where a Club is Based as long as you have a Club to support. Didn’t Arteta re-sign because he liked the way Everton were headed re: the new stadium, at this rate will all the arguing and voting going on Arteta will be well retired and i might add that he probably wont be retiring from Everton as he will be long gone. I have a team, my team lost their ’ground’ and now share it with about 4 other clubs, but who cares by doing that it meant that my team survived and i still have a club to support every week.
Get over it, get on with it and take pride in your team and your stadium wherever that may be.
another Blue
7   Posted 28/07/2007 at 06:50:36

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i agree with the Blue downunder, to a certain degree ( who cares about the Redshite) but the fact is we all want the best of everthing when it comes to supporting our footie teams. Players, facilities, stadium, which begs the questions were will it be and what will it look like.were Kirkby, Speke, Scottie Loop,. I have seen some photo’s of what appeares to be a stadium in Cologne Germany, at first sight i think yeah not bad, then i see admittadly only the artists impression of the redshites stadium and while there, is no comparision theirs looks impressive, while ours looks like a huge meccano construction or a lego construction. I am comparing ( which we have to) because we all get involved in discussions sometimes arguments in ale houses about we have more scousers support our team than you, we have more away support than you, we have a better ground than you, oh i mean used to have a better ground than you. My argument is simply this we are being pushed from our home,being re-located in a area that we don’t want ( the vote will be a massive NO ) then we are going to construct a second rate stadium ( playing second fiddle to the shite again). there is a future and we must get it right for the kids who will take pride in answering the same questions we have defended to the bitter end. we are not second best and will never settle for second best if we have to wait a bit longer then so be it.
merseysider
8   Posted 28/07/2007 at 07:39:02

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The more I read of this sort of stuff, the more it is turning me in favour of the Kirkby proposal. Liverpool is "our turf", Kirkby is "the sticks", end of argument. There’s a narrow mindedness and intolerance in this that sickens me. Trying to make out that Kirkby is some sort of poor relation, that moving there would be a sell out, a defeat and a crime.

We do have a history and a tradition in the city of Liverpool. And it’s perfectly reasonable to vote to keep that history and tradition intact. But try to understand that other people are trying to work out what’s best for Everton’s future. This means asking whether the new stadium deal will be able to generate more money and more business for the club. And asking seriously whether Kirkby will be able to support home attendances at least as high as they are now - you’ve given me an emotional argument, but you haven’t shown me that it can’t.
bluedownunder
9   Posted 28/07/2007 at 08:02:20

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to Another Blue... the stadium isn’t that important, as long as it has modern facilities and a decent capacity (50,000 sounds on the money, with room for expansion), what IS important is the people who will turn up, us, the true supporters who would watch the blues even if they played in sefton park... the whole purpose of moving is to increase our fanbase, attract future investors and TOP PLAYERS and most importantly remain competitive in the EPL. Don’t fall into the trap of LFC-watching, they will have a ’bigger and better’ stadium(structurally at least, they as supporters will always be Shite) than us no matter where we end up. The key here is to see this for what it is: a great new stadium, better than GP, for minimal outlay, in a part of l’pool (yes i for one count kirkby as a part of liverpool) that is growing fast and will keep us competitive for many years to come. Delay a move or stay where we are at our peril!
Peter Mitchell
10   Posted 28/07/2007 at 08:29:41

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I’m sorry guys, but the views expressed in this article are just as bad as the views it is ridiculing. The real situation is that there is going to be a vote on the Kirkby option. 38,000 Evertonians are going to have their say. If you, Cindy, are one of them, then you can vote. If not, like the rest of us, you can await the results with interest. The real debates and lobbying will start after that. If the vote is "no" then other sites will have to be considered (presumably within Liverpool’s boundaries). Until then, I see no point in constant hand-wringing.
BlueJord
11   Posted 28/07/2007 at 08:21:48

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I have to say, I completely agree with ’merseysider’ here. And I can’t believe that the author, Cindy Cole openly criticizes Wyness, for his pro Kirby propoganda and the lies he tells us about the state of Goodison Park. I think Wyness has done a terrific job so far by increasing the clubs income. And I dont believe he is lying when he tells us that by moving to a new stadium with incresed capacity and no restricted views, our income will increase even more. Moving stadium is obviously the next step towards us progressing financially, to help us build a stronger team.

So, maybe Wyness is exaggerating by stating the condition of Goodison Park, but not by much I bet. But Wyness and everton, have shown a lot of ambition and determination in my eyes, to move the club forward, with or without the councils help, and have come up with a great deal (which CAN be done) for a new stadium.

The only arguments I have heard against the Kirby move are surely clouded by pride. ’What disturbs my equanimity the most is the gullibility of those who so readily support the Kirkby move; the ostensible willingness to give in and accept defeat.’ Defeat? So when the RS move into their brilliant new stadium, and are bidding for the worlds best players, are competing for the league and the champions league no doubt, at least us blues can hold our heads up high and say - ’well, at least we’re still in the city.’ I can feel the pride already.
toffee rapper
12   Posted 28/07/2007 at 09:05:39

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Glad to finally see another point of view on here, not just the prevailing ’don’t trust BK/Wyness/Kirkby is woolie/BESTWAY is the best way’ etc. Maybe there is some hope for us, we don’t all just use emotive fear-mongering to get our point of view across. I for one agree wholeheartedly with bluedownunder, susan, merseysider and bluejord. Personaly i have been sickened by the way KEIOC played videos of football hooligans to the kirkby residents, what sort of tactic is that? and i suspect a lot of them have crept onto these forums to spread similar fear amonst true everton football club supporters about moving to kirkby. Hope your not one cindy!
David Flanagan
13   Posted 28/07/2007 at 09:18:30

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Why are we so obsessed with the shite....It will hand the city to them....absolute bollocks..most of their support is from glory hunting out of towners.Kikby is not ’the sticks and full of woolies’.I am not against moving to Kirkby but GP will not pass inspections within 10 years so something has to be done.We as a club have little revenue/investment to build a ground ourselves so it wont happen unless we find a mystery benefactor.
Dean
14   Posted 28/07/2007 at 09:33:43

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well said toffee rapper and the like.

I believe the vocal minority are in full swing using the obligatory mud-slinging and scare tactics. When you look at the facts, their arguments are completely irrational and they are creating a situation which doesn’t exist.

I guess we’ll have to ride it out
Peter Pridgeon
15   Posted 28/07/2007 at 09:37:06

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Lovely article Cindy in lovely English
These idiots who think it does not matter are blind and confused by glitter that is far from gold offered by Wyness and kenwright.

I hope that the CEO of Everton who has only a plan A will resign when this vote discredits the fatal move
toffee rapper
16   Posted 28/07/2007 at 09:56:37

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Thanks Dean.

A perfect example of the vocal minority you refer to is above me.

regards TR
Ralph Basnett
17   Posted 28/07/2007 at 09:27:11

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I do have a laugh readng some of the comments on our impending move to Kirkby (yes I am in favour). The deal has been on the table long enough for LCC to have reacted with an achievable site and have failed to deliver, if Bestway seen us as a good partnership they would have approached us earlier and however much we don’t like the TESCO plan its the only one on the table.

I have visited the RICOH on three occasions and can only sing its praises. We talk about lack of parking at Kirkby (cannot remember seeing a 1000 car space car park at GP), and have not had a pint inside GP or even a pee as I don’t want to miss what its all about for me and that is watching EVERTON F.C.

For all those who insist we should stay within the city boundaries to be part of the city you have to remember the city is called LIVERPOOL and not EVERTON, our club is called EVERTON and that is who I support but would rather support them in the PREM League with a stadium to boot. I have always believed the Kirkby move to be a done deal and therefore cannot do anything about it but to continue supporting my team and eagerly wait to renew my lifelong season ticket in the new ground.

Whilst I am not gifted with business acedemia one thing I will say of the grounds that have been instigated by Tescos are that they are all used for other than football hence generating extra revenue. Example being pop concerts would much prefer to use a stadium with good external access (Kirkby has this much more than the new Anfield), and would Rod Stewart, Elton John rather host a concert in a full 50,000 new Goodison or a three quarter full new Anfield? What am I talking about atmosphere and not our address?

It seems 50,000 so called supporters have an opinion on where we should moved but week n week out I only see 35,000 at GP?

Accept the move as it is inevitable, embrace it and help move the club forward with your continued support.

p.s. My wife is a season ticket holder for the darkside (redshite) and she believes asthetically our images of our new stadium is better than the futuristic bollox they are producing, and for all window cleaners out their reading this get writing to Anfield as I sure your services will be required cleaning 24/7 their glasshouse.
Peter Pridgeon
18   Posted 28/07/2007 at 09:37:06

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Lovely article Cindy in lovely English
These idiots who think it does not matter are blind and confused by glitter that is far from gold offered by Wyness and kenwright.

I hope that the CEO of Everton who has only a plan A will resign when this vote discredits the fatal move
Pblueman
19   Posted 28/07/2007 at 10:12:00

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Dear oh dear, lot of mud slingin going on around here. Facts are though that it will be more expensive to stay at GP than to invest in a new stadium. OK so we got to move Kirby or Bestway? that is the essential question. whether or not the stadium should be outside the city is complete tosh, i moved out of liverpool 15yrs ago but i still support Everton.
besides which the immediate area fanbase catchment for kirby is hugely increased than at present GP. the scotty road site is plausible but should be a backup plan if the Kirby site falls through. i’m sorry scotty road but the whole logistics of vehicle access (and safety of pedestrian) and fanbase catchment area put you a "slight" second choice. Staying at GP is not an option shes a grand old lady that IS starting to decay. last year huge amounts of money where spent on decorrosion on the metal work, she has had her day time to move on.
And as a side note if LCC wanted us so badly to stay in the city.... why did they give us absolutly no help in the Kings Dock project (which was my favorite)
norman baker
20   Posted 28/07/2007 at 10:20:30

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go for it everton,and we may have a future
bluenose
21   Posted 28/07/2007 at 10:36:25

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go for it everton, and we WILL have a future. I heard WB @ LCC on radio last week saying he couldnt release details of any proposed site (last Sat morn)due to exclusive deal with knowsley, i got Echo sat afternoon and the 3 sites were in there, even though exclusivity still in place?????? Joke! COYB. my 5 family votes for kirkby (even though it breaks my heart) COYB born not manufactured
toffee rapper
22   Posted 28/07/2007 at 11:03:33

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PETER PRIDGEON

Are you a KEIOC automated bot? Why do you keep reapeating yourself?

are you in fact...cindy?

by the way, what you say is nothing more than rhetoric
AJ EFC
23   Posted 28/07/2007 at 10:52:58

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VOTE NO 2 KIRKBY.
I’m a son of the city of Liverpool therefore i support Everton FC-the original team from the city. If Everton move to Kirkby they will no longer represent me. Tranmere are from Merseyside, do we see them as being from the city? Do we S**t. Vote No and lets go the BEST WAY forward.
Susan
24   Posted 28/07/2007 at 11:11:07

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Type or paste your comment here
Susan
25   Posted 28/07/2007 at 11:13:14

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AJ, Everyone in Liverpool knows that Everton are the original team in Liverpool but being that and knowing that does not win Premierships or anything else. Stop living in the past, the way is forward so get behind your team and support them in their proposed move, and get on the bus the four miles further you will have to travel to watch your team.
Matty
26   Posted 28/07/2007 at 11:24:43

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Amen sister. I agree with every word Cindy. It seems that you can’t tell some people though. To this spinless assortment tradition is nothing, heritage is meaningless and who cares about identity? They are quite prepared to sell 120 years down the river for an extra 10 million a year on transfers and four cheap stands on an industrial estate. Well I’m voting a big "no" and so are all true Evertonians.
Dave Thompson
27   Posted 28/07/2007 at 11:27:37

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In the bluekipper "chat" MBE has with Wyness (since no-one could call it an interview) our erstwhile CEO syas that by moving to Kirkby, our catchment area within a 45 minute drive increases from 1.3M to 4 million people.

Since Kirkby is only 5.2 miles from Goodison (not 4), and takes about 10 minutes by car, can someone in the pro-Kirkby ranks please tell what is putting off the other 2.7 million people who somehow live in a narrow band 5 miles wide from coming to support Everton now.

The only places the arbitrary 45 minute zone might embrace with any significant popluation are areas of Manchester and Lancashre that already have football teams, most of them in the Premier League. Why will they suddenly start supporting Everton.

In the meantime, loads of disenfranchised current fans will be lost. Many people go to the game from habit. It’s what they do on Saturdays. Meet the mates, have a pint before/after/both. I have been going to Goodison since 1964, and there have been times when you wonder if it would be better doing something else. Of course, I still buy my season ticket, and still hope for some silverware, but once the routine is broken, many people will simply give it up.

There are plans for 1000 car parking spaces. Thats about 4000 people. Where are all of the corporate guest, just waiting to spend their money at Everton, going to park?

Where are the new supporters going to park?

If our attendance increases to around 45,000 (the break even point to put extra money in the transfer kitty and finance the debt which will be incurred), where will the other people park?

One of the main selling points made about Kirkby is it’s proximity to the M57, but you’re not going to able to put your car anywhere!

Please, pro-Kirkby people. Think it through.

bluenose
28   Posted 28/07/2007 at 11:46:55

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in what way are we spinless matty?
mr anthony james clarke
29   Posted 28/07/2007 at 11:07:33

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TO all evertonions there is a PLAN B.dont believe wyness i think he is on tescos payroll.Remember wyness wont be here in 2yrs.kirkby will. stand firm vote NO.
Strewth
30   Posted 28/07/2007 at 10:55:58

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This is a real decisive moment in the club’s history. Cindy’s article hits on something that has nagged me about an otherwise great deal. Its the possible effect on our traditional fan base. But then I got to thinking the far biggest risk is not location but lack of success. We aren’t doing an MKDons and relocating 50+miles but a mere 4miles from GP and just over an artificial administrative boundary. The real risk to keeping and growing our support will be continued lack of success. We need to be winning things to get and keep people coming and attracting big name players NB the prospect a new stadium was a key factor in persuading Arteta to sign again. Like others I’d prefer a stadium to be within the traditional Everton neighbourhood but really is that likely ever to happen any time soon (ie within next 10/20 yrs) given our lack of funds to pay for land and the construction. Kirby gets us a stadium with little debt with a Council actively wanting to accommodate us (God help the City with leaders of the calibre of Warren Bradley!). We also have a serious partner to make it all happen - and all by 2010/11. No the move is no guarantee of success but it offers us a far better prospects of achieving it than staying put and rotting or being so in debt we are back to Walter Smith days of mend and make do and endless relegation or worse promotion scraps. We risk a disillusioned declining fan base with only our history for solace. So I’ll be voting yes.
Billy Brad
31   Posted 28/07/2007 at 11:59:42

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Waht a situation Fat Keith and Bungling Bill have put us in. There are other alternatives that look really exciting and dear I say it DELIVERABLE. They are trying everything they can to win anyone over with their lias and fabrications. Unfortunately there are idiots who will belive these clowns. The new one I have heard is from inside the club is all the literature with goodison park on for our season tickets has bee withdrew and images of Andy Johnson will appear on them. Nice try Keith, more money wasted, Keep the faith and we will win the ballot and watch fatty eat his words.
bluedownunder
32   Posted 28/07/2007 at 11:55:41

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Matty and Dave Thompson,

welcome to your future... we wait...and wait...and wait for what exactly? Oh yes a site in liverpool, home of liverpool football club... we can be their other team as we were and as we are and as we will be... in about 2020 we wiull move into our stadium, capacity 25,000 which will be ample for a 1st division side. and go the reds! playing crap and still chasing man u/arsenal/chelsea/westham(?) and all the other sugar-daddied sides in the EPL SUPER LEAGUE. but at least they are the ONLY TEAM IN THE CITY. big fucking deal. And if you both can’t work out how moving to a growth area will increase our fanbase, then you are as stupid as the twat who thought ’lets play videos of hooliganism to kirkby folk, that’ll make em want us to stay in liverpool. Twats.
david kiely
33   Posted 28/07/2007 at 11:55:01

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Well said, Cindy.

Location does matter. Identity does matter. Unfortunately, the amateur accountants that we seem to have in abundance in our support will continue to feed on the club’s propaganda with a giant spoon. They are an embarrassment.

Hopefully we get the vote that sanity demands and we stay at Goodison to plan our future from there.
Susan
34   Posted 28/07/2007 at 12:08:37

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Good on ya Billy Brad, you sound like a politician, all you are doing is dehumanising the argument ie. "Fat Keith" and "Bungling Bill". People de-humanise things when they are at a loss or dont have words to express themselves. How would you like to be called Big Bum Baggyball Brad? Not very nice is it?
Billy Brad
35   Posted 28/07/2007 at 12:30:03

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Sue am not a politician i am a born and proud scouse evertonian, who can see through shite. Its about time you started to fight fire with fire, those two bastards are killing my club and I for one will do anything it takes to keep us in the city.Miss nice girl.
Susan
36   Posted 28/07/2007 at 12:36:21

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Billy, Everton were in the Red (pardon the pun) when "Fat Keith" took over the reigns, they are now in the Black. If you are frustrated by the lack of success on the field at Everton dont look to him. "Fat Keith" could have quite easily sat on his hands and waited til the club folded, but he hasnt done that, he has negotiated a deal for the better of the Club. What if the supporters have to travel a couple of extra miles, better to travel to watch your Premier League side playing in Kirby than to stay at GP watching your Championship team playing. Think on that!
Get over it, get on with it and take pride in your team and your stadium wherever that may be.
MCB
37   Posted 28/07/2007 at 12:36:37

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Let’s face it there’s no other option to take the club forward. The club is in debt and doesn’t have the funds to re-build GP or take a deal with Bestway (who the fuck are they anyway). Kirkby IS part of Liverpool and is more Scouse than other parts of the city. We will get what will probably be one of the best stadiums in the country for buttons and will become more attractive to investors away from the RS. Vote yes for a future for the club or vote no so we can all sit back and watch the mega stadium take shape in Stanley parkwhile we lookk forward to another tear in the Championship.
Dave Thompson
38   Posted 28/07/2007 at 13:05:40

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Susan,

In what way are Everton in the black?

Debt has increased significantly, and on April 18th THIS YEAR we took out a mortgage for £14M with Barclays in Gatehead. It’s all in the records at Company House.

What the mortgage was for, no-one (outside the club) knows, including the minor shareholders.

In the period since Kenwright took over, debt at Everton has increased three fold, and now stands at around £50M by most estimates. In the figures for 2006 not yet released, we are expected to show a deficit of £8M.

When Peter Johnson did the ballot in 1997, he told us Goodison had less than 10 years. Here we are.

Can you demonstrate, in clear and thought out figures, how Everton will have a better team if we move to Kirkby?
Pablo
39   Posted 28/07/2007 at 12:57:48

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A great article by Cindy as it pulls at certain heartstrings within you.How would you feel everytime you went to the "New Analfield" the home shite started singing "You’re just a team full of wools!" I know it would grate on me as we were here first,and in my opinion should always remain in this city.

Heres another question,how would those pro-Kirkby feel about going over the water and having a ground on the Wirral? As some say,Kirkby’s only four miles away and has a L postcode.Well how far is the Wirral from EFC, plus until a few years ago had an L postcode itself?! I’m not sure those of you give that stadium about distance away would approve for a move over there me thinks. It’s our city and our club and no matter what,we should explore every avenue within L’pool and not move to the great white elephant until done so..! KEIOC
Dave Thompson
40   Posted 28/07/2007 at 13:12:05

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bluedownunder,

No, I can’t work out how moving to a "growth area" (one of the most deprived boroughs in Europe") will increase our attendance.

Please enlighten me, as you have obviously thought it through. How will moving 5.2 miles make loads more people want to watch Everton, because just assuming they will isn’t enough.
Bob Fletcher
41   Posted 28/07/2007 at 13:02:03

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Everybody keeps saying that there will be only 1000 parking spaces at Kirkby. There will be 1000 spaces in a multi storey park next to the ground and there will be other car parks as well. Look at the proposals in detail, as put forward in the brochure issued by Knowsley Council, instead of just nit picking to support your arguments.
Bentley
42   Posted 28/07/2007 at 12:53:31

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I think it’s an extremely noble gesture to get an independently adjudicated ballot of the fans, to have such a direct & unweighted question and to abide by the outcome. This coming at a time in the Premiership when some plc clubs (eg. Man U) have been taken over amidst massive fan opposition. Opposition that had no effective conduit and was pretty inconsequential.

I am, however, inherently cynical. So whilst I completely appreciate what is no doubt a very positive message to the fans of The People’s Club - that we (those voting) should decide our destiny - I’m dubious.

Who is eligible to vote?

I remember getting nervous when it slipped out that Kirkby was first being considered, and there promptly followed a hurried public statement saying that it was one of several options the board were looking at and not to read more in to the news than that - already correctly pre-empting opposition.

A few months later it is now our only viable option. So if others were considered and ruled out then please go public and tell us to better help any decision for the 38,000 to stop aspertions being cast as to how carefully the board has actually looked around.

If it is simply a case of - ’Guys, we need to move soonish, Tesco and Kirkby Council will largely subsidise this project, plus the site is cheaper as its out of the city. Realistically speaking without an investment partner(s) we won’t be able to get a stadium on our own in the city or out of it, before Goodison is utterly outmoded. So be with us on this one.’ Then I’d have a lot more respect for the board.

Posturing and spin, in the absence of the knowledge of what sites have been discounted and why is grating. "No plan B" = "I’m incompetent and/or lying to you."

IF Goodison can’t be developed, let’s move. Logical. IF sites can’t be found in the city, fine. Where have you looked and what didn’t work? How long do you estimate Goodison has before it ’won’t pass safetly certificates without uncosteffective investment’ ie how long have we got to make a decision and get into somewhere else?

Not that I’m voting, but these are the questions I’d need answers to before I’d feel comfortable if I was.
bluedownunder
43   Posted 28/07/2007 at 13:23:26

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DAVE THOMPSON

Let me explain... EFC moves to a new stadium. In a fast growing growth area of the LIVERPOOL AREA 5.2 Miles (how’s that for being pedantic?) from their former home. Local people think "a nice brand new stadium, should check it out." they do. they like what they see. they tell their friends. they like what they see. etc. this applies to people in liverpool, kirkby, speke and wigan. oh yes wigan. when they return to the championship they will leave behind supporters with a taste for premiership football. nearest club? Kirkby-based everton. need i go on? Oh and by the way, people = supporters, kirkby is growing faster people-wise than any other area, that equals MORE PEOPLE which equals MORE SUPPORTERS (potentially. Unless they are of norwegian or german heritage, they are destined to be reds regrettably). Does this answer your question? I am guessing not, mainly because its not what you want to hear...
Robbie Muldoon
44   Posted 28/07/2007 at 13:35:14

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I wish people wouldn’t reply to theses article with full blown essays in the comments section!

Great article, football is about identity. Kenwright out!
Fonsworth
45   Posted 28/07/2007 at 13:41:27

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Guilty!

Didn’t realise it was until I saw it up there!

Sorry.


KirkbyBlue
46   Posted 28/07/2007 at 13:24:26

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KEIOC turning up outside a public meeting for Kirkby residents just to show pensioners photos of football hooliganism, to illustrate what happens when you have a football stadium in your midst was really a pathetic move by KEIOC.

They are willing to travel to Kirkby to badger pensioners with this PATHETIC protest, but wouldn’t be willing to get off their sorry/negative asses to come to Kirkby to watch the football team that they profess to love!

What next from KEIOC? That they have found a football stadium inside LCC boundaries, in walking distant from Goodison, where the TRUE scouse fans can still have the important ritual of having their prematch bev in the wimslow, the oak etc, a ground so steeped in Everton history and tradition that they used to play there, a ground that will be ready for us to move into in 2010 as the present tenants will be moving into their brand spanking new stadium in Stanley Park? Anfield seems to tick all of the KEIOC boxes

nick harris
47   Posted 28/07/2007 at 13:33:50

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ive heard rumours Goodison won?t pass its safetly certificate by 2010.

the cost to everton for the kirkby move will be £15 million (after selling goodison and naming rights).

the cost of redeveloping goodison is out of our financial reach by a long long long long long way.(if money wasnt an option then i would prefer this)

its seems highly likely the cost of a site inside liverpool boundries will be much higher than the kirkby option. (meaning less money available to be spent on the team and much greater financial restraints long term.)

those who want to stay in the city want to get real , we cant afford it !

stop whining " i want this " "i want that" becouse what you want and what you can afford are completely different.

i want a bloody ferrari but its out of my league , i know that.

face facts goodison is borderline dead and we have to move. redeveloping goodison and staying in liverpool would mean lavish spending of money we havent got .
kirby is the best option.
sorry to break it to you but thats just a fact of life.

Tony Marsh
48   Posted 28/07/2007 at 13:53:06

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Well said Cindy and spot on girl.Everything you say is 100% correct.Bluedownunder.If you are down under stay there because you are a Gobshite.Whats it got to do with you anyway you will probably never have to make the horrible journey to Kirkby so wind ye neck in.
MCB
49   Posted 28/07/2007 at 14:07:28

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Tony Marsh, You are the gobshite. Just because he now lives in Oz doesn’t make him a lesser supporter. He is just as much entitled to an opinion as anyone. Your final comment sums you up. You may have to move your arse and get a bus to the new stadium. Many people have been doing this for thirty years or more, in fact two buses.
Susan
50   Posted 28/07/2007 at 14:33:24

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I have read with interest the comments on here and even posted a couple myself. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and everyone should RESPECT opinions whether they agree or not. Tony Marsh is now bringing this down to another level, you are the gobshite (how i hate that word) you should not assume anything because assumptions make an arse out of you and me! Go bluedownunder at least you make a valid point.
bluedownunder
51   Posted 28/07/2007 at 14:20:33

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1st of all thank you MCB for your support, much appreciated.

To tony marsh, I am a gobshite? Me and my 2 brothers have followed everton from when we were kids, home and away, to places like chelsea before abromovich and mourinio, notts forest when brian clough was the manager, was at the bayern munich game, the united game when we won 5-0 (the highlight of my golden years), saw trevor steven’s goal against telford, mountfield’s equaliser against ipswich etc etc. my brothers are still season ticket holders, as is my sister who has worked for EFC, i was at the arsenal game and the luton game in the League Cup and the Bolton game in the EPL when i was back in the UK last year in OCT-NOV. I have every right to an opinion, and also value other people’s opinions, unlike you, who obviously prefer character asassination. At the end of the day, I want whats best for Everton Football Club, what the hell do you want?
toffee rapper
52   Posted 28/07/2007 at 14:57:32

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Why are evertonians fighting with evertonians? This is insane! forget liverpool the club i mean, think of the future, a club with potential and not in the shadow of the liverpool Shitfactory (the new anfield) tucked away, new fan base, maybe some new owners (if i had the money id bye a club with a new stadium and suome history) and fuck the reds they are mostly foreign gobshites.
ps luv ur comments bluedownunder
Bentley
53   Posted 28/07/2007 at 15:28:58

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If Kirkby is our only opportunity for a stadium because we?re honestly too poor for ANYTHING else to be viable before Goodison is redundant then I would vote for it. Currently, I don?t feel I have enough information to draw that conclusion. The only things coming from the board (inexplicable on such an important issue) pose more questions than they answer. I can?t see how there?s enough out there to make an informed decision. Currently both arguments are using/relying on conjecture. In which case, because I?m cynical and I think the board are being selective about what they?re volunteering (some of which is clearly pissing-in-the-wind figures to hoodwink people eg. £10m pa for players), I would vote against. But I don?t have a vote though!!
Strewth
54   Posted 28/07/2007 at 15:14:51

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Its all getting very Harry Enfield on here. Admit I’d still like a closer location but the vote is upon us. So about these alternative sites - has anyone heard of any offers from site owners to donate these free to EFC (cf KBC)? Has anyone stepped forward volunteering to be a partner and actually finance the construction (cf Tesco)? Are any of these questions likely to be resolved any time soon? and meanwhile will KBC and Tesco simply twiddle their thumbs to see if we get a better offer? Lets not become the club that never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Still feel our only real option is to vote yes.
toffee rapper
55   Posted 28/07/2007 at 16:00:22

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bentley being poor or rich doesnt come into it, the facts are that EFC needs to move, more money will follow for sure, its a fact. if u doubt it why would LFC move from anfield, or arsenal from highbury? because it WORKS.
end of the day its the TEAM that matters, what they do week in week out, not where they play.
toffee rapper
56   Posted 28/07/2007 at 16:10:13

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bentley being poor or rich doesnt come into it, the facts are that EFC needs to move, more money will follow for sure, its a fact. if u doubt it why would LFC move from anfield, or arsenal from highbury? because it WORKS.
end of the day its the TEAM that matters, what they do week in week out, not where they play.
bluedownunder
57   Posted 28/07/2007 at 16:16:58

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Lyndon Lloyd, too late for what?
too late to vote for what exactly? to wait? sit on our hands? wait fot the New Anfield to be built? Please tell me too late for WHAT?
The short bad saturday
58   Posted 28/07/2007 at 16:01:12

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I dont want to get anyones back up, but Im getting a little bit fed up of all this stadium lark. While i submit that the whole topic is both relevant and on most BUT NOT ALL lips around here. I went into my local store in Stoneycroft last night and lo and behold not one word of any Stadium debate. In all seriousness, i have read all the banter, for and against and the sum product is I still cant reach a final conclusion. As with most people there are both advantages and pitfalls both staying where we are and a move north eastwards. I could list a least a dozen reasons why I would like to stay a Goodison and by the same token, list the same amount about why in the long run, it just cant happen and we are all better off taking the money and run. Despite what anyone says I will be kind of glad when we are actaully in our new ground, wherever it may be. I just hope its the right solution . I as much as the next (genuine) Evertonian want to see this club do well and propser, contine to bring out new and exciting youth players and slowly decrease the gap between ourselves and the horrible bastards across the park.What we dont need is fellow supporters turning on each other even the subject matter may well turn out to be more important when it happens even before a brick has been put in place. Lets save our animosity and distaste for the fudge packers (you know who you are).
bluedownunder
59   Posted 28/07/2007 at 16:45:18

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end of the day, i hope common sense prevails, and everton move on, if some of the comments ive read on here are an accurate guide to the ’thoughts’ of efc fans, then if we move to kirkby and leave them behind, i for one won’t miss them. fuckwits and twats to a man. pity.
Tom
60   Posted 28/07/2007 at 16:50:12

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bluedownunder - spot on.

Vote "No" and watch the club die on it’s arse and Kenwright and Wyness might as well leave as well and no-one to come in.

It’s ok though, because the Evertonians of ToffeeWeb and BlueKipper will be happy.

RIP Everton Football Club
gh
61   Posted 28/07/2007 at 16:40:18

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just because you are in a city, it dont mean you will have success

if a red says well you are from the sticks, will it hurt more than, well you have a shed of a stadium and only get 35 thousand a week at your games? Our response Well at least we are in Liverpool" who cares? I want us to do well in a nice new stadium that brings in revenue.

GP being renovated will not "find" land to put car parks and shopping outlets on. So we will loose out there.

The land in the city being offered is not free (prob 10-20 mill), and then we have to independently buy a whole new stadium, that will probably cost £150-180 million. Then we have to pay for the players wages to play in it? Alll of a sudden Kirkby looks like a steal and I feel we should deffo move.

KEIOC sound like people who own the land we park on and pay £8 for the privilege, or the chippy owners outside the ground. Real fans want progress.
toffee rapper
62   Posted 28/07/2007 at 16:54:58

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Tom, Bluedownunder, you have given me hope for the future of everton. surely you are not in the minority. if you are God bless you both and pray for our souls because we are surely destined for the championship. IMIT and GBEFC
TR
bluedownunder
63   Posted 28/07/2007 at 17:00:21

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Tom.
the thoughts ’nails’ and ’heads’ spring to mind. well done son.
toffee rapper thanks, i am quite sure i’m not in the minority, all it takes is some guts from the true Everton supporters out there, believe in your team, don’t believe the hype, the team is what we all support and the stadium doesn’t matter. If it did we would still be at Anfield.
toffee rapper
64   Posted 28/07/2007 at 17:16:53

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gh just read your post, spot on bud, the choice is clear stay and stagnate or move and become what we know we can be: the best
Tom
65   Posted 28/07/2007 at 17:19:17

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It’s 3 miles down the road. If Everton moved to Manchester, I’d still go. Why? Because they are MY TEAM and I’ll follow them to the death - either mine, or theirs, whichever happens first.
bluedownunder
66   Posted 28/07/2007 at 17:24:07

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tom, toffee, gh, shortbadsaturday, strewth, ralph basnett, merseysider, susan, bluejord, pblueman, norman baker, blueenose,
apolgies to any pro-kirkby supporters ive missed on this forum,
There is hope, let us hope the negative element is in the minority and that EFC have the chance to expand and grow... bear this in mind, most of the current players have no inkling of the history of Everton, they only know the here and now, and the thought of a new stadium would fill them with excitement and hope for the future, remember our stars (cahill, johnson, arteta peinaar etc) want to see progress. and will go where the pounds are. Chelsea anyone? Being forever in LFC’s shadow is NOT the way forward!
Ralph Basnett
67   Posted 28/07/2007 at 17:32:44

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Having said my piece previously with my bit of dribble the best I have heard so far is ’Tom’ 1719hrs today, my sentiments exactly............
Cindy Cole
68   Posted 28/07/2007 at 17:56:42

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Thanks to those of you who have commented on my article whether you agree or disagree. Perhaps, as Toffee Rapper suggested, much of what I say could be deemed as being rhetorical, but what?s wrong with that? It was intended to spur healthy debate. Besides, how could anyone who is pro-Kirkby write with such passion? Indeed, how could they write factually when so little in the way of fact has been delineated to us, the fans? Incidentally, whilst I may agree with their underlying sentiment, I have no connection with KEIOC.

I acknowledge that we need to move from Goodison (though we don?t need to panic and move immediately just because LFC are). The main point I was hoping to convey is my concern over the future support of the club should we move to Kirkby. Whilst the majority of current supporters including myself would continue to support the club wherever our location may be, it?s the generation of future support which is at stake as well as loss of identity. I want the club to progress, same as the next person, but I don?t see Kirkby as progress. If we lose our Liverpool connection then we will no longer be the same Everton that I and many others love. Judging by some of the posts here ? I guess many of you just don?t quite grasp what that means.
Tom
69   Posted 28/07/2007 at 18:10:55

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What it is about, is ensuring that the future on and off the pitch is secure.

What do you think the likes of AJ, Cahill, Lescott and Arteta will think when Evertonians vote AGAINST moving to a nice new stadium, that will make us money and help improve the team, and perhaps challenge for trophies?

They will jump ship and rightly so. Why stay at a club with no ambition?
Cindy Cole
70   Posted 28/07/2007 at 18:23:55

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Tom, I think Cahill, AJ, Arteta et al., will be more likely to jump ship if they find themselves playing in a retail park outside the historical city (which was doubtless part of the attraction for them playing for Everton in the first place), being cheered on by a nominal crowd in the ’Every Little Helps’ stand!
Dave Thompson
71   Posted 28/07/2007 at 18:24:12

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Tom,

Football is a transient game. By the time a new stadium could be built in Kirkby or anywhere else for that matter, Cahill, Arteta, Johnson and Lescott could easily be elsewhere.

We’re talking about a decision which affects the future of this club for decades.

At the end of the day, footballers will sign for the club that pays them the most money. It’s that simple.

If you think Everton will be better off in the long term by moving to a new stadium in Kirkby, then vote for it, assuming you are eligble. Don’t just think about the first couple of novelty seasons, when the crowd is likely to increase. Think about when the current crop of supporters gets older and where the new crop might come from.

The ambition of the board at Everton remains to get into a new stadium as cheaply as possible, and then sell up for as much as possible. Kirkby = Kenwright exit strategy.
MCB
72   Posted 28/07/2007 at 18:06:50

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Apology accepted bluedownunder
bluedownunder
73   Posted 28/07/2007 at 18:39:24

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My profoundest apologies go to MCB.
And my thanks.
BDU
GH
74   Posted 28/07/2007 at 18:38:08

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Cindy, do you really think arteta, cahill, howard etc really care if the flashy new stadium is in Kirkby? Its not like they will move house, the historical city 5 miles down the road will still be there. Old Traffoird aint in Manchester, Im sure Cantona really thought twice when he found that out.

The every little helps stand can be called what it likes, as long as they give us a couple of million to put towards players and wages.

Leeds Utd are still in Leeds city centre, fat lot of help that was to them. Bolton have moved to a retail park, things look much rosier there.

Fans will be fans despite location if we succeed. Have you been down south latley, there are loads of man utd and liverpool fans, half of which prob have never been to a home game, so arguing over 5 miles seems ridiculous!
Steve P
75   Posted 28/07/2007 at 18:42:53

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This is such a hard decision!<

LCC have bent over backwards to support LFC by allowing a development on a green field site and then suggest we move to the land locked Bestway site!

Then there is the dilemna that EFC could move out of the district of Everton to Kirby - outside of the LCC boundary but nearer to Goodison than Speke!

The next big question is why can Man City, Villa and Prtsmouth attract new invesment and EFC can’t??? - I still think we can (subject to Bill K) attract an investor given our current status has a top 6 club!!

So do we vote yes or No?? - At this moment in time, I will be voting No!
Tom
76   Posted 28/07/2007 at 19:31:32

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Well obviously it’s possible that Arteta and Co won’t be here come 2010/2011, but they will be gone a lot sooner if we vote NO, that I’m sure of.

Sure, It’s mostly about money these days, but mixed with that is ambition, and we won’t be showing a drop of it if we stay.
Lee Spargo
77   Posted 28/07/2007 at 19:26:19

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FAO - all those who think that the Scotland Road ’Loop’is a plausible alternative.

Sorry to piss on your chips fellas, but the site isn’t big enough. Simple as that. By way of proof, just try looking at arial shots of the ’Loop’ iteslf and the present site of GP on the same scale. Then Try and drop GP onto the ’Loop’. I’ve just done it now, and GP JUST fits - and I mean by the skin of it’s teeth. If the present footprint of the GP site isn’t big enough to redevelop without extending it further, something we all know will not happen anyway, then how can the ’Loop’ be big enough for a brand new more modern 50,000 seater?

I wont even mention the problems with access.

It’s Kirkby or nothing else for the foreseeable lads - that may change in the future, but how far will we have fallen behind by then?

Use your vote wisely.
john morgan
78   Posted 28/07/2007 at 19:38:44

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The attitude of some of my fellow evertonians is starting to turn my stomach with their hatred of all things Kirkby.
I understand the emotional argument about the city boundaries, and that’s fine. What I can’t understand is that for Forty years I considered myself scouse, but now, in the last year I’ve come to realise I’m a wool and a social pariah because I’m from Kirkby (even though I was born in Walton Hospital).
To be honest, I don’t want to associate anymore with some of the people expressing these views. And by the way, NOBODY in Manchester worries about United playing in Trafford, and I’ve never heard anybody say you’re not a Manc if you come from there. Maybe we’re just as bitter as the rest of the country thinks we are (sorry, am I allowed to say we?)
Gary P
79   Posted 28/07/2007 at 19:14:01

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Come on KBC and LCC make the city boundary loop around Kirkby again and put our minds at ease! Every1 happy :o)
Cindy Cole
80   Posted 28/07/2007 at 20:04:59

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John Morgan, apologies if I or anyone else has offended you. I do not hate Kirkby or its residents - far from it. I agree with you that ’Kirkbyites’ are mostly scousers. It’s the long-term ramifications of a depleted city fan-base and reliance upon a less than guaranteed support from further afield that is of concern.
Billy Brad
81   Posted 28/07/2007 at 20:53:16

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Can I aplaud the efforts and man hours KEIOC are putting into this campaign. I am a brother of one of the committee members and have seen the time and dedication he has
put in. Wyness and Ross have tried to discredit the group similaly other individuals and groups using the press and other methods, but they have worked on getting professional assistance and highlight the incompatance of the board and deliver viable alternatives that need exploring before we make what I feel will be death of our club.
solongliverpoolandthanksforallthefish
82   Posted 28/07/2007 at 21:50:17

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I’ll always love Everton (the club)more than I love Liverpool (the city).
They are the single thing which has stopped me relocating for years now - work down south every week for as long as I can remember.
So its simple really.
Anyone wanna buy a house in Garston, I’m off to Kirkby.
Nostradamus
83   Posted 28/07/2007 at 22:35:13

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If you take Wyness’ figures at face value - naive, I admit - Everton stand to gain atleast 25% extra attendance initially. I’m sure this is Billy’s plan to realise his investment in Everton all those years ago. Everton will be a real attractive proposition to a take-over. Massive club, great history, 45-50,000 regular fans. Less debt than your average big club with a shiny new stadium. Can’t see how we’d cost a fraction of the ludicrous figures paid for our previous landlords or other at-one-time-or-another big clubs. We’ll be beating them off with a shitty stick. Billy eventually demurs with a lovie speech about how he has left Everton in good hands, like he always said he would and hops off to buy his house back, satisfied he has returned Everton back into a competitor.
Build it and they will come...
It’s all about striking while the iron is hot. Success on the pitch at the right time will attract all the intention we can handle. This is where Moyes is key. Fuck it up and it’ll be the house of cards. So let’s get behind them, make us attractive to new money and wish Bill luck as we wave him goodbye. Then watch as we wipe the smile of those smug redshite, poor neighbours no more,...
Nurse, nurse can you get this jacket off my nose is killin’ me
mick wrende
84   Posted 29/07/2007 at 00:11:32

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Who gives a toss whether Kirkby is in Liverpool or not.
Paul M
85   Posted 29/07/2007 at 00:04:46

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Tony Marsh, you’re a little bit odd aren’t you. Keep at it toffee rapper and bluedownunder.
Paul M
86   Posted 29/07/2007 at 00:34:19

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Mr james anthony clarke

Please provide all your evidence that :

a. There is a plan B
b. Wyness is on Tesco’s payroll
c. He’ll be gone in two years.
<

Then I can consider "standing firm" with you and know you’re not indulging in WILD ARSE SCAREMONGERING. Thanks.
Strewth
87   Posted 29/07/2007 at 00:24:51

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Cindy - well done. We may be on different sides of the argument but your piece has made us think hard about the issues concerning us at the point of a massive vote in EFC’s history. If the vote is no then we stay put. I think it’ll be a missed opportunity but others will rejoice. Thats democracy for you. Whatever the outcome eternal shame on those bad mouthing Kirkby and elements within the KEIOC brigade for their tactics - will they concede to the will of the majority if its a yes vote or has gh really got their measure? We all have legitimate differing opinions on this and are fully entitled to them so shame also on those who resort to insult in an attempt to deny others their view - from either side! Like I said earlier its got very Harry Enfield’ish on here. Are we really like this!? I just hope and pray we vote the right way for our future which ever way that is.
bluedownundertoo
88   Posted 29/07/2007 at 00:54:00

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Being from Oz, I am pretty new to football, but began supporting Everton after watching my very first game. I had no idea where they were from - that didn’t worry me. What I loved though, was the passion of the supporters and the strength and committment of the team on the field. I am surrounded by redshite mates at every game I get to see ( not many over here!) but would not change clubs for love nor money. I admit the move to Kirkby is not going to affect me, but whatever the decision might be, you need to support our club, ’cause I can’t do much from over here.
Susan
89   Posted 29/07/2007 at 01:42:06

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Where I come from I support a diffeent football code to you but it is a game that is just as exciting and the suporters are just as passionate. Many of the teams have had to relocate in the past few years, 1 or 2 teams at least a 1,000 kilometres away from their original ’homeground’, they have done this to SURVIVE as footy clubs. They still have the support and might i add their support has increased. If you Evertonians are true supporters you will get behind your board and do what is right for YOUR club. My own club had to leave their ’home’ and relocate about 5 miles, we now regulary have attendances of 60,000 plus. We didnt want to move and lose our beloved Vic. Park we thought the world had come to an end, but hey, life goes on and indeed has got better. I know you are probably asking yourselves "what has she got to do with Everton" nothing i guess apart from living with an Evertonian and sitting up all hours to watch them play live on tv. I just love sport and i want to continue watching Everton in the Premier League with Cahill Arteta etc. playing for them. Cahill is now getting a reputation as a great international footballer and is close friends with Lucas Neill whose team have plenty of money to throw at the likes of Cahill.
Mike Campbell
90   Posted 29/07/2007 at 01:31:36

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I agree with Cindy and I have made my feelings known in previous commentary. To those who are pro Kirkby let me say this. Its been downhill since 89, go a head with your move and the demise will continue. You are taking the heart and history from this club,time will be the judge,hopefully I can hang around a few more years to see if I’m right.If proved wrong I will be more than happy but at this time the negative dog has the positive one by the throat.
Blue Canuck,an Evertonian since 1948
Johnnny Blue
91   Posted 29/07/2007 at 08:40:44

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The chairman, the manager, the team moves on. The fans and the stadium remain constant. The only factor that should be considered is the fans opinion. We have the opportunity to show Keith Whyness what the fans feel is best for our club (NOT HIS) Whichever way the vote goes we as the fans will have to live with the predicament of whether we voted wrong in moving away from our heritage and gorgraphical rite. Or voted wrong in not allowing the club to explore avenues of new investment.
I’m against the Kirkby move. I’m concerned by the lack of investment in the team. I don’t care about LFC. I want to win every game next season and lift a few trophies. Beating the shite along the way, will only be a bonus.
Tom Hughes
92   Posted 29/07/2007 at 09:51:44

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I ask all the pro-Kirkby blues one simple question: If you had choice between Kirkby or Scotty, which would you choose? Where would you rather be? Before you mention the costs etc, ask yourself how much is kirkby going to cost? Do you really know? If KW doesn’t know how can you? He’s contradicted himself several times on this already. Incidentally, how does this cost compare to the cost of bringing GP upto 50,000? If you don’t know, why don’t you?
So, back to my question.... Is there really any comparison between these 2 sites? The more central site is similar to the KingsDock one, do you really think the kirkby option would have beaten that? I think Kirkby would be lucky to get 5% of the vote. Therefore, don’t you think it’s premature buying into a one way ticket. We’re talking about something that is going to affect this club for generations..... let’s not take the first offer.
toffee rapper
93   Posted 29/07/2007 at 10:06:52

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Mike Campbell

A more negative post i have yet to read on here. Downhill since 89? where have you been the last few seasons? 4th in 2005 and 6th 2007 compared to fighting relegation year in and year out during the smith years. Yes i know its not where we want to be, but surely we are moving in the right direction?
Your remark that if we move the demise will continue is ridiculous, what do you suggest, stay where we are and the future is all rosy? wait for the perfect site to materialise and then what? how will we pay for it? Just take a look at what is happening in the EPL, check out players wages, transfer fees, what the clubs with money are doing. How can everton compete if we dont move and dont move soon. Or maybe you prefer to live in the past until the past is all we will have.
toffee rapper
94   Posted 29/07/2007 at 10:26:31

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tom hughes

seeing as you know so much about costs please let us all know how much scottie road will cost, how deliverable it is compared to kirkby and how you expect KW to know the cost of the kirkby move to the nearest pound? all he can do is work with projected costs and therefore cannot give exact figures. but obviously the stadium in kirkby is deliverable and thats is good enough for me.
Stand still waiting and we fall further behind the rest of the EPL until we lose our best players and also probably moyes too. I know what i would prefer.
Blue in Bolton
95   Posted 29/07/2007 at 10:02:04

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I was born in Wallasey, lived there for sixteen years, then moved to London and lived there ten years..i then spent two years living in Reading, before moving to Bolton where i have lived for the past 12 years..
My point...? In all this time i have remained a true Blue Evertonian..and this is the first time in the last few years that i have felt that Everton are waking up, seeing reality, and actually working towards an objective that shows a great deal of common sense and visionary thinking.
Stop living in the past Blues.. and if you claim to be a true supporter of Everton Football Club..try supporting them, instead of trying to shoot down everything they attempt to do.
AJ (London)
96   Posted 29/07/2007 at 10:43:30

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There is a plan "B". Its just so full of holes, put in water it’ll sink without a trace.

When the no vote comes in I wonder how the Bestway option will actually stack up?

Seems to me that stay in the city, get saddled with debt which will affect the team, or leave "our" city [didn’t know anyone owned the city actually] - and have something with minimal debt.
Dave Thompson
97   Posted 29/07/2007 at 14:40:54

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toffee rapper...

You ask how Wyness can know the exact costs and only work with projections. That?s fair enough.

How, then, can he describe this as "the deal of the century" that will give the manager "up to £10M" per season in transfer funds and leave the club "debt free"?

DO you really think someone will build a £75M stadium for £50M?
toffee rapper
98   Posted 29/07/2007 at 16:03:53

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Dave Thompson

It’s the deal of the century because it is all but paid for by tesco, with about 10 to 15 mill to be coughed up by everton...
if you really need this spelled out to you i will, but i am amazed anyone cant figure this out for themselves...
a new HIGHER CAPACITY stadium with BETTER FACILITIES will attract both MORE SUPPORTERS, especially FAMILIES and also attract MORE SPONSORS, BETTER PLAYERS and will keep our current best players, NAMING RIGHTS can be worth 25 million alone, can you tell me who would want to attach their name to a stadium over 100 years old? DO i need to go on? If I do then you might want to check out why LFC are building a new stadium, at least their supporters don’t attack each other over moving from their beloved anfield.
Dave Thompson
99   Posted 29/07/2007 at 17:42:32

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toffee rapper,

LFC are moving because thay sell out every game, and have a waiting list for season tickets of nearly 20,000.

We can’t sell out against Man Utd when we’re aiming for a UEFA place.

Can you give me an example of a team that moved ground and increased their attendance in the long term because of the stadium.

Why will we attract more sponsorship?

Football has been family friendly for some time now. What amazes me is that people think more are going to attend because they won’t have to queue up for food and drink, or it’s easier to have a pee at half time. You go to watch the team, and you can do that at Goodison!



Finally, you said Wyness doesn’t have exact figures, so how come you can quote them with such definity? The figures you mention have already been revised by Wyness at least once.

Naming rights are payable over the period of the contract, so £25M, if we got it, would probably be paid over 5 years plus. We’d have to borrow against that money to pay our part of the development, in the way the costing has been presented so far, but no projection has been made for that borrowing.
Oafgut
100   Posted 29/07/2007 at 17:18:09

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Where are all these extra fans supposed to be coming from? St Helens? Skelmersdale? The fact is that Everton will face an ultimate drop in attendances by moving to Kirkby. The issues of city-pride and heritage have played a massive role in maintaining attendances and support over the last 15 - 20 years. If a handful of obstructed views and lack of a stadium carpark have put you off going to the game during this time then, quite frankly, you are hardly the sort of fan that Everton need.

Moving to Kirkby is surrendering the city to Liverpool FC. Simple as. Talk of ’arbitrary boundaries’ is all well and good but this is not the sort of reasoned debate you will be hearing on the playgrounds of Liverpool in 10 years time when our next generation of supporters will face the choice of supporting Liverpool FC of the City Of Liverpool or Everton FC, the irrelevant bumpkins from the sticks.
GH
101   Posted 29/07/2007 at 18:11:05

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oafgut is isnt "a fact" that we will get an ultimate drop in fans if we move. Some of the garbage that is being thrown about on this forum is crazy. Nobody really knows what exactly will happen. However if we look at the majority of teams who have moved there has been a range of results. Best case scenario is prob Bolton, worst possibly Coventry. However most of these are very recent and people spouting about what will happen in a generation are speculating.

My opinion having studied sociology at university level is that people will support a team that is successful and close, in that order, how many wirral fans to EFC and the reds have, when they could support Tranmere? Answer loads, because they are more successful, location is secondary. So if we do well and we are in Kirby, we will keep our fans. If we dont, then we will loose them, simple as that. A good example, do the Man Utd fans care when the Man City fans say "well at least we are from Manchester!"? Nope they dont give a monkies, they reel off what they have won and go watch Utd against Milan in the Camps league.

The main question is how do we stay successful. Recent history states that large financial sums seem to help that cause. Only exceptions to that rule are Newcastle annd Middlesborough (spent a lot and got nowhere), us and Bolton (spent very little and qualified for europe). Newcastle and Boro have, in my opinion been badly managed, us and Bolton have been well managed.
So to conclude this comment, i feel our best chance at staying successful would be to move to a location that is still close to home that will create the biggest revenue and keep the Manager who has brought the success. Kirkby will give us the best financial footing due to Tesco and Kirby giving us a generous package. If LCC had offered it, there is no way KW would have dismissed it, its in his interests for the blues to succeed, he is a very, very intelligent man who has not fallen into this job by mistake. If the project fails, he will probably loose his job and no-one will touch him, so why would he blindly lead us there if there was the slightest chance of something better?
Tom Hughes
102   Posted 29/07/2007 at 14:39:28

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Toffee rapper....
I’d expect him to know it to within the nearest few million, wouldn’t you?.....even if only projected costs. Last week his estimates were wildly ranging £50m upto £150m back down to £75m. It’s farcical. Where’s his feasibility study for the redevelopment of GP? They didn’t even realise it could be developed upto 50,000 within the footprint. If they haven’t even done a full study how can they say it’s non-deliverable. They cannot possibly know the cost if they don’t know precisely what they would need to build. We/I shouldn’t have to be doing their work for them. According to city planners Currently involved in far bigger projects than the proposed Kirkby package, it is viable to release sufficient land to generate funding for the Bestway site, this is the most common method for doing so, and indeed forms the basis of the Kirkby option for those who still think this is a tesco giveaway. This is going on all the time in the city centre, and you will see the results on the skyline. There is no reason why similar cannot produce a stadium off Scotland Rd.
Dlynch
103   Posted 29/07/2007 at 21:16:41

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Let me try to put it this way.
To bluedownunder2 and others. Who state that they grew up in the city but no longer live there and it doesn’t matter where we play.
IT FUCKING DOES TO US WHO LIVE IN AND AROUND THE CITY!!!
Mercenary bastards, you want to sell us off for a handfull of promises that may never come to fruition.
How would you Aussies like it if they moved your’e local local footy teams.
Piss off!!! (See you’ve got me swearing now).
toffee rapper
104   Posted 29/07/2007 at 21:33:30

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dave thompson,

Why does everything have to be spelled out to you? You have dismissed everything I said explaining why everton would make more money from moving, therefore I wont repeat my self, except to say if you really can’t see why we wouldn’t get more sponsorship from a new stadium then how come every other new stadium built in the last 10 years has done precisely that? if you think staying at goodison is the way forward then you can look forward to a team minus wyness who will surely quit if we say no to kirkby, moyes next (forget HIS 5-year-plan for the blues), arteta who re-signed a 5 year deal based on the club moving to a new stadium, probably cahill and johnson and the rest will fall like dominoes. To be replaced with who? No new revenue streams on the horizon, look forward to championship-level players dave cos thats all we will be able to afford.
Its one thing to be concerned about moving, but burying ur head in the sand and thinking our future lies at goodison is both futile and a recipe for disaster.
bluedownunder
105   Posted 29/07/2007 at 22:07:11

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DLYNCH

A more half-witted post I have yet to see on here, not only highly abusive but totally wrong. For a start my family still live in liverpool and realise a move is essential, no one likes it but at least most sensible people realise it is essential for survival. How would I like it if my aussie team was moved? It has been, its old stadium demolished, and now share a stadium with several other clubs. also some teams over here have relocated to other STATES, some over 2000 miles away. So the answer is NO we don’t like it but guess what? At least we get to see our teams, they have survived and are now doing well. Sooner that than folding hey? So get your facts right, like most of the brainless Anti-Kirkby mob who have flooded all the forums on here and other sites you resort to fear-mongering, name-calling and have absolutely no facts to back youreselves up.
sean long
106   Posted 29/07/2007 at 22:31:42

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here here, and thats coming from a wooly who lives in st helens, works in knowsley and very rarely ventures into the city!!!(apart from on matchdays)the ground move is key to the club and if tesco’s would be kind enough to build a ground for us anywhere within the city boundary i’m dead sure this debate wouldnt be so raging.....so lets hope theres more clued up blues than BK and his merry board, whats our name again?
toffee rapper
107   Posted 29/07/2007 at 22:25:28

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to tom hughes:

whether the figures stack up or not in your opinion is of no concern to me, I would rather take the word of the CEO of EFC that they stack up than some fear-mongoring poster on this forum. And you say 25mill over 5 years...and thats a bad thing how? Seeing as you are so knowledgeable on contracts etc maybe you should run for CEO of everton as I am sure they would snap you up.
Tom Hughes
108   Posted 29/07/2007 at 23:25:12

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Toffee Rapper.... Stick to the points lad. If you haven’t got a valid response an "I don’t know will suffice". You obviously know very little about our multiply bankcrupt CEO, or Stadium design/planning, or the funding of major developments. You would take the word of a man who has bent the truth repeatedly. Only a few months ago it was not possible to fit 50,000 seats on the current site,(and that had been the party line for the previous decade pretty much). Then suddenly it changed to being it’s not deliverable after some prompting to show that it was. Can you tell me how Kirkby would be funded in terms of planning gain or land release or whatever, and how that compares to the other options of redevelopment of GP or the more central site? Or do you really think we’re getting a freeby? You cannot possibly know, and therefore justify your vehment and blinkered support of Kirkby without this knowledge regardless of whether or not my opinion is of concern to you. The fact is there are multi-million pound developments already in place in the city-centre that have used precisely the same process to finance them as the proposed Kirkby option. Tesco’s haven’t got the copyright on this.
toffee rapper
109   Posted 29/07/2007 at 23:52:50

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So Tom Hughes ’lad’, Where are all these alternatives you are sure are just waiting for us? Bestway? Funny how they appear from nowhere and you are prepared to stake evertons future on them, are they not also an unknown quantity? And if you are such an expert on figures, try reading Wyness’s comments again, its quite clear that the estimates are 50mill from tesco to build a stadium, everton pay the balance of the amount over the 50mill (about 25mill extra) for a stadium that will be worth 150mill by the time its finished in 2010. Is that so hard to understand?
And as for blinkered support for kirkby, If a better offer was on the table then i am sure EFC would be looking at it. The fact is there isn’t, and wishing or hoping there is won’t make it so. and please enlighten me, what do YOU know about stadium design/planning and/or funding of major developments? you are obviously know something the rest of us don’t, including the board of EFC.
GH
110   Posted 30/07/2007 at 00:33:20

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by the way tommy lad, we have been offered the land for free by Kirkby, Liverpool have already stated they cannot match that offer, hence us having to stump up millions extra just for land, that will be extra pricey, as it is in the city centre.

Plus if we re-develop GP not only will have no extra land for money-making car parks and outlets etc, we will also loose the revenue of ticket sales while the stands are being re-built approx £250000 per stand per game.
Jarrod
111   Posted 30/07/2007 at 00:41:56

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Susan, I’m assuming from your post that you’re a Collingwood supporting Melburnian? You raise the exact point that i wanted to raise.

Australian Rules has 9 (that’s right - 9!)of its 16 clubs in the one city - all bar Melbourne Football Club don’t play at their traditional home grounds, or the suburb that bares their name. Yet, we still are able to get close to 90000 to many games.

My point? If the fan is a true fan, then 5 miles down the road will not be an issue. If you support your club, then you SUPPORT you club.

Having said that, i’m not sold that we’re on the right path with the new stadium, but moving a few miles down the road is not, for mine, an issue that should decide this debate.
bluedownundertoo
112   Posted 30/07/2007 at 03:10:11

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Apologies Dlynch, it was certainly not my intention to force you to swear! I didn’t realise my nationality negated my right to contribute to this discussion. I know this is a passionate topic but I would hate to lose sight of the fact that, in reality, we are all on the same side. We all want what is best for the club. I don’t know what is best, but I don’t think yelling at each other helps.
Susan
113   Posted 30/07/2007 at 06:38:12

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Jarrod, at least someone has got the point i was trying to make. And yes i am a Colingwood supporting Melburnian, (but born and raised in UK) next Saturday i believe we will get close to 90,000 against Carlton, neither teams are playing at their traditional ’home-grounds’ but they are both playing at their home ground as they both share the same ground along with a couple of other clubs. Doesnt matter where your team plays as long as they have a ground to play on. At the end of the day any team has to sink or swim and Everton unlike my AFL team play on the world stage, they need world class facilities. I have also read that the Scotty Road sight is by no means big enough and i think Speke is farther away than the Kirby sight, (Oh but silly me i forgot Speke is in Liverpool) I have mentioned before that i have been to watch Everton at GP (travelled 12,000 miles) and i have never seen a dingier more depressing place than the area around GP, not that is since my team had to leave their homeground, and thank god we did. We have now got bigger and better sponsors, no-one wants to put their name to an old run down stadium.
Tom Hughes
114   Posted 30/07/2007 at 09:30:56

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Toffee rapper: Once again you dodged my main points and questions. FYI....I have been involved in far bigger projects than the kirkby proposal working as an engineer and design engineer for a a major construction company,and I also studied stadia design as part of my design engineering degree, I have also visted most of the world’s major stadia..... and NO, I don’t understand KW’s comments about costings at all, nor does anyone I have spoken to in my former profession.

GH. Losing revenue during redevelopment need not happen, as will be shown when the redevelopment plans are released. There are examples of clubs who have achieved similar. Also, as regards land costs and freebies, you will all be forgiven for thinking that Tesco/Knowsley own the copyright on this. You might be surprised to know that this process of releasing land to generate funds via planning gain or outside investment or whatever route of several others is the usual process for funding major construction projects speculatively. It doesn’t mean the council give something for free, as knowsley claim, it’s just a way of generating finance. The Massive redevelopment of the city centre is full of such developments, many of which dwarf the Kirkby proposal. The city centre development is an international affair, and is mushrooming all the time to the point where it is now the biggest building site in Europe. I can assure you the major players in the city planning and architecture departments are now fulltime on the Bestway proposals. Why? Because the Everton/Vauxhall/Scotty corridor is the next phase of the development of the downtown area, and the prospect of bridging the gaps caused by the mersey tunnel cutting, and connecting to Project Jenifer in Everton is the prime mover. There is no greater catalyst, Building Block or iconic development than a stadium. Therefore, the planners are excited at the prospect of emulating the many "downtown" stadium developments in the USA, who’s success have prompted the biggest stadium building boom for over 80 years. New Out of town club stadia are a rarity over there now.... so why are we doing the reverse? The amount of funds that can be generated using the same process as in Kirkby, can be several times greater in the centre as has been shown by the amount and quality of the developments there. Also, in terms of naming rights, the more high profile location on top of all the major work in one of the most famous cities in the world cannot possibly be matched by Kirkby. Not to mention it’s in Everton and we can all get there on One bus/train/ferry from ALL parts of Merseyside...... Again, NONE of this can ever be matched at Kirkby.
Dave Lynch
115   Posted 30/07/2007 at 10:10:12

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Ok. The ale has worn off and i apologise if i came across as a ranting fool.
But you see, it is important to me and many others where we play.
I don’t want the Aussie scenario of teams being shifted all over the place.
Our psyche is different. We still rightly or wrongly? Hang onto the traditional roots of our teams and i still feel that this move is wrong and that there is an underlying motive for Bk and Kw to push this move through.
NSNO.
Tom Hughes
116   Posted 30/07/2007 at 10:06:07

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Susan, I see you have omitted to mention that the Telstra Dome is in the city centre in your home city (Do you know where kirkby is?). BTW have you heard of Fenway, Wrigley field, Yankee stadium? The first 2 have stands older than any at Goodison, and have no problems getting sponsors. As Regards dingy Walton. I think you do it and its residents a great disservice. The Myriad of streets surrounding the ground are rich in character and victorian build quality. Many streets and their houses are kept immaculately. This high density population fills more than a few rows of the stadium that rises in its midst, which Kirkby’s low density cannot possibly match. There are rundown streets and houses amongst it, but why should this always be the case? the city is improving all the time. Liverpool are building in a similarly rundown area so why can’t we? As far as Bestway site..... do you really know its size? What acreage is required for a stadium? I think you’ll find it wont be a problem at this site!
GH
117   Posted 30/07/2007 at 10:35:25

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tom
the everton supporting councillor has already stated that the only way it can feasably happen in the city is for BK to stand aside and let an investor in. Why would he say this if he thought we could possibly fund the bestway loop in our current financial position?
He stated he would not give LCC land away for free in a press release. Kirkby have said we can have that land, I dont care how you package it, its still free, even if they get to generate finance from the outcome, its still free to EFC.
The Loop is a nice location I agree, but its small, I can see us making much money from parking on matchdays and concerts etc. Plus Bestway from what i have gained, basically want us to pay them to leave the area and re-locate, therefore adding another expense to what will inevitable bankrupt us. Have you seen the signings Arsenal have made this year? Do you think they will compete at their normal top 4 level? Me niether, why? All of their money went into an overpriced, in-town, stadium that the fans wanted because it was close to home. They had no partners in this venture and it has murdered them financially. I dont think the Blues could take a hit that hard and stay in the top flight. Do you?
Tom Hughes
118   Posted 30/07/2007 at 12:43:40

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He wont be giving the land to Everton for free. Nor will knowsley in the context of the planning gain arrangement. The outcome of a similar process could well be that sufficient finance will be raised, and/or planning gain realised to fund the stadium. Like I said, this is happening all over the city centre. As far as outside investors are concerned, it is true that they will be attracted by the superior high profile site. The site is tight but sufficient for a 50k stadium and is expandable since the road is in a cutting. The surrounding area is practically unpopulated nowadays, with only a few enclaves of a once massive population. (My grand father was actually born on top of the site, and all my family lived within 100 yards of it before being spread far and wide)Therefore little nuisance factor. As far as parking at Kirkby and concerts are concerned: I can’t see concerts going there with the more centrally located and larger Anfield nearer to all the city-centre’s amenities and hotels etc. I also don’t believe the proposed parking capacity is nearly big enough for an out of town site. Public transport capacity is presently something like 2-3,000 passengers per hour for Kirkby, therefore even at 4 people per car that will require 12,000 car spaces. That’s more than twice town’s capacity I think. I think only 2,000 appeared on the model.
The analogy with Arsenal only holds so much water. Firstly, the land aquisition costs and cleaning/preparation alone cost more than the Kirkby stadium. This was also a very complex structure, 3 tiers with curved profiles which greatly adds to the cost, and need not be what we’re looking at for EFC. That said, I don’t think they’ll have too many problems keeping up, and as the massive premium seating revenue increases over the years, they’ll soon be knocking lumps off their loan. Aren’t their match day takings higher than Man Utd who has 16,000 seats more? They are already being taken over!
KenDoddsDadsDogsDead
119   Posted 30/07/2007 at 12:55:12

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TR, BDU, & the like.

Imagine. Tom Hicks announces "LFC to move to Kirkby", koppites given the vote.
What do you think the response would be?
Exactly. So why the f*** should we??
Nil Satis Nisi Optimum
Susan
120   Posted 30/07/2007 at 13:13:45

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Tom Hughes
Please explain what ’Telstra Dome’ has to do with all of this?
toffee rapper
121   Posted 30/07/2007 at 13:38:28

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tom hughes

I have answered your questions, you choose not to accept them. I couldnt be any more clearer in response to funding etc. By the way, who are you exactly? I googled your name and DESIGN ENGINEER etc and guess what? nothing. SO if your such a high ranking stadium designer how come there is nothing about u online? can u supply your resume of stadiums you have designed please?
toffee rapper
122   Posted 30/07/2007 at 13:49:19

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Oh this is interesting... i googled TOM HUGHES and KEIOC and guess what? You have a vested interest in redeveloping goodison! no wonder you are on here 24/7 trying to influence the vote so you can line your own pockets! what a disgrace. Jobs for the boys or what?
toffee rapper
123   Posted 30/07/2007 at 14:19:30

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TOM HUGHES damned by your own KEIOC!

There is a "Plan B" 01/07/07


Yesterday Thomas Hughes, Tony Bennet (KEIOC), met renowned architect Trevor Skempton Dip1, RIBA to discuss Tom’s plans to re-develop Goodison and sites in and around the City. Ian Macdonald, a shareholder and part of the Everton Independent Blues supporters? club was also invited to the meeting that lasted over three hours in the City centre.

Tom’s plans are at a sight line study stage to be developed further. As with all preliminary plans the viability will be discussed and comments will be made from the Cities architects.

Care to comment Tom lad?
GH
124   Posted 30/07/2007 at 14:33:47

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Tom Bore me later, we aint gonna bankroll you. You probably are not even a fan, you have a vested interest in staying in LCC. Shame, you did seem to make sense on some parts but now we know you are only in it for yourself and the progress of your career!
Alfred lord Tennyson
125   Posted 30/07/2007 at 14:14:20

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Down the league down the league,
Down the league onward,
All in the valley of death
Rode the 500 club:
?Forward the people?s club!
Charge for the board he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the 500 Club.

?Forward the Moyes Brigade!
Even tho were dismay?d
Not tho? the young fans knew
Some one had blunder?d:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do & die,
Into the valley of death
Rode the 500 club.

Chairman to right of them,
Chief Exec to left of them,
Tesco in front of them
Volley?d & thunder?d;
Storm?d at with shot and shell
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the 500 club.

Why did their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the World wondered.

Honour the club to stay!
Honour the Moyes Brigade
Not towards Kirby way
For the 500

Say ?no? to the move!!
toffee rapper
126   Posted 30/07/2007 at 14:45:13

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alfred lord tennyson

Your crap rhyme

don’t even rhyme

hows that for a rhyme

say yes

to progress!
Susan
127   Posted 30/07/2007 at 15:12:57

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Tom Hughes

As you haven’t replied to my post i can only surmise that you are too busy negotiating your hourly rate for re-developing GP. You mentioned ’Telstra Dome’ in a previous post, this was in relation to a previous post of mine re my AFL team re-locating. Get your facts right before you put ’pen to paper’ my team did re-locate but not to ’Telstra Dome’ as Telstra Dome is not big enough to accommodate the supporters that attend regularly in huge numbers (60,000+) each week, to watch my team play. You have totally missed the point anyway. My point was that my team would have folded had they not moved. Collingwood (my team) are the equivalent of Man U but without the success, when we had to leave our home ground the supporters were devastated (i was a season ticket holder, as i still am) but they backed the board and had faith in them. My team re-located from their suburb to the other side of the city (5 miles +) other teams have had to move inter-state, we are now sharing our ’homeground’ with Melbourne F.C., Carlton F.C and Richmond F.C. FOUR teams sharing a ground, it is actually further for me to travel to watch my beloved "Pies" and i dont mean the hot ones, like you mean the hot chips, there are no pubs on the way to my teams home ground and there are certainly no chippies, but i tell you what i still go every home game, without the chips and booze, I also travel inter-state Sydney 800 kilometeres, Perth 4 hours plane flight and some in between. So in conclusion I like most Everton supporters on here want what is best for my club. Yes i do consider myself an Everton supporter, I get out of bed at 3am and 5am during the EPL season to watch Everton ’live’ on tv with my born and bred Everton supporting husband (my husband was born and bred in Liverpool, such a one-eyed Everton supporter been to games home and away and took his 2 younger brothers through the 70’s and 80’s) my husband loves Everton with a passion we were in UK last year for only 4 weeks and he went to watch his beloved Everton 3 times including the day we arrived there. I feel that I am eligible to have an opinion (as my 4 weeks holiday was structured around Everton games, it cost us $6,000 dollars to watch them if you include travel costs!). I have also been to stadia around the world, Melbourne Cricket Gound, Telstra Stadium Sydney, Telstra Dome Melbourne, Old Trafford (Man U) and been to Candlestick Park, so Tom i too have been to many World Class Stadia and let me tell you GP does not come close! With biased inputs from people like you it can only get worse. I am sure when people think it all through they will do what is best for EFC and move to Kirby. There are no other deals on the table apart from the one you are trying to manufacture for your own personal gain.
Susan
128   Posted 30/07/2007 at 15:58:32

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Tom Hughes

WHERE ARE YOU????????
GH
129   Posted 30/07/2007 at 16:00:27

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http://www.keioc.net/uploads///Files/Tom%20Hughes_1.doc.pdf

here are some of Tommy boys sketches, note the exec boxes smack bang in the middle of the stand where KW didnt want them to make others feel like the poor relations. Also note the absense of any car parks, or hospitality lounges. Also note the way he critisises the atmosphere of goodison (I thought we were the 12th man?)

There are only 20 premier league statia in the UK, imagine what kind of boost an arcitect would get if he was to design one?? hhhmmmm even if you did this for free Tom, you would still get a massive career enhancement. Unlucky mate your opinions are invalid now. see ya
Susan
130   Posted 30/07/2007 at 16:14:22

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Earth to Everton!

GH you are one of the few on here who ’gets this’ Tommy Hughes (lad) can’t even bother to reply.


Thanks for the ’link’ which i have viewed with interest and have to say this " have not seen such badly drawn designs since i was at Primary school, no actual facts to support his crappy designs, no costings I am surprised he didn’t draw stick figures in the stand". A more unprofessional presentation I have yet to see. No wonder the board of EFC said "NEXT".
Tom Hughes
131   Posted 30/07/2007 at 16:29:00

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Damned by what?
What does that mean? Firstly, I’m not a member of KEIOC, (was my name alongside the abreviation?) secondly, I am an Everton season ticket holder and shareholder, and have been a season ticket holder for over 30 years with the odd year off whilst at Sea. I have missed 3 home games since Billy Bingham was sacked other than whilst at sea. I am not a stadium designer. However, I have studied stadium design and worked in structural analysis etc. The architect you mention has been involved in stadium design and some major projects..... google his name why don’t yer?! . I am essentially a concerned Evertonian, who having studied stadium design wonders how a team in a 2team city can opt for the out of town option when most new club stadia are being relocated downtown to take full advantage of public transport hubs and networks. This has been a massive success in the US. Yet we choose the opposite at the behest of a supermarket. The logistics for Kirkby are attrocious which I can say having worked there for over 6 years. I’ve made the effort of putting a preliminary design concept together, which KEIOC, the city planners, a stadium design company wish to support... meanwhile Toffee rapper’s efforts extends to spending his time answered nothing, and saying very little. Keep up the hard work lad!
Alfred Lord Tennyson
132   Posted 30/07/2007 at 17:10:33

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Toffee Rapper - may the Wrath of the English Literary Cannon (look it up - its not a real cannon) come down on your illiterate head.
It is a comfort to know that the ill informed are amongst those leading the charge to move away.
xxxxxx
Tom Hughes
133   Posted 30/07/2007 at 16:59:28

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Susie,
I wasn’t on line before, so how could I reply..... I’ll attempt to later, but as far as your last effort..... good job I’m not sensitive isn’t it? haha
They are rough sketches for initial ideas only, what did you expect? BTW Didn’t you see the Tesco Kirkby consultation drawings, now they were real crayon stuff. The glossy images we have since seen from EFC are decent renderings only..... nothing exceptional at all. In terms of the design itself it is an off-the-shelf standard c-value led configuration, nothing more than that. It could even be just a graphics package rendering with no Technical backup at all. Although I would have expected a bit more than floodlit images. My Concept design material will be released this week (in theory). They are full CAD Engineering drawings, Cross Sections and plans, 3-D and 2-D and rendered architectural images, all fully sightline modelled. I am not chasing a contract, I already have a very well paid job with lots of time off thanks.
toffee rapper
134   Posted 30/07/2007 at 17:39:04

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Tom Hughes

welcome back! After much consultation and damage control its nice to have you back!
no doubt your buds on KEIOC have filled you in... (wish i could fill you in!) anyway you are implicated in the KEIOC, they support u to the hilt in case u didnt already know, the fact is try as u like, u have lost all credibility as an Evertonion, but rest assured the KEIOC love you to death. Regards TR

ps at least this post cant be deleted!
Susan
135   Posted 30/07/2007 at 17:49:05

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Hey Tommy boy, i feel i can address you as such as you took the liberty to call me Susie. Thanks for answering my 2nd post but you have not replied to my first post re Telstra Dome etc etc. Also please thank your fellow KEIOC colleagues for banning me from their site, and please tell them i am flattered, me, a mere female incurring their wrath and hey presto they dont like what they read so they delete me, whatever happened to one man one vote and everyone having the right to be heard, did they re-locate Everton to China?
Tom Hughes
136   Posted 30/07/2007 at 18:18:50

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TR..... it’s sunny for a change you know...... shouldn’t you be playing out.

I wondered how long it would take for you to give up your one line argument!!

Fill me in? I doubt you could fill your national insurance number in! BTW a few members of KEIOC have been home and away fans for decades...... not internet hard men for 5 mins! But cheers for the threat.
Susan
137   Posted 30/07/2007 at 18:41:02

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Hey Tommy, just looked out my window and it aint sunny here, "internet hard men for 5 mins" wot a laff. Dont assume anything cos you know what assume is dont you?????????
toffee rapper
138   Posted 30/07/2007 at 18:42:20

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TOM HUGHES

sunny? its 3 45 am sorry its not sunny its night here you total retard. KEIOC are full of dickheads like you wait till i post the entire contents of your plan to cash in on EFC staying at goodison! You fucking loser
Cindy Cole
139   Posted 30/07/2007 at 19:00:37

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Susan, might I say how reassuring it is to hear that you have been banned from KEIOC. If you persist in deriding the immediate environs around Goodison you will surely incur the wrath of the editors of this site too.

For someone who purports not to be an Evertonian, you certainly hold rather staunch views in favour of the Kirkby debacle. Furthermore, I fail to see how you could possibly compare the AFL with the EPL. After all, Collingwood?s president (Eddy Maguire) is the host of the Australian version of ?Who wants to be a Millionaire?? Could you imagine Chris Tarrant as CEO of Everton?........ ?For one hundred million pounds, Everton?s new home ground is going to be located at; A) The Loop B) Long Lane C) Walton Hall Park D) The Back Arse of Nowhere?? ?Er, I think it?s D Chris?. ?Is that your final answer?? ?Yes, D Chris?. ?Wrong! You just missed out on an opportunity to take your club into the 21st century!?
Susan
140   Posted 30/07/2007 at 19:02:45

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Wow Cindy you have done your research, Google is indeed a mighty tool, like yourself.
Susan
141   Posted 30/07/2007 at 19:07:29

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Seriously Cindy i am an evertonian, my husband is one-eyed Everton as are his brothers and his sister who reside in Liverpool and go to every home game. Eddie Maguire as you state is the host of ’millionaire’ he was also until recently the head of Channel 9 and is president of my AFL footy team. He is a selfmade millionaire + and is probably richer and more succesful than most of the directors at Everton, not that i am putting them down far from it, but please get your facts right before ’putting down’ Eddie Maguire, he has nothing to do with this until you brought up his name.
Susan
142   Posted 30/07/2007 at 19:20:07

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Also Cindy, isnt this a democratic forum where people can express their views, as far as i can see unless peoples views match yours, as you state they could incur the editors wrath, what a load of crap, i dont want to sit up until 3 am to watch everton play championship football, oh, hang on i wont have to cos they dont televise championship footy here.
Cindy Cole
143   Posted 30/07/2007 at 19:23:00

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’No worries’ Susan. I’m sure Eddie is very wealthy and good for him. (Incidentally, I wasn’t putting him down - he just led me into what I thought was a rather good pun). If, as you say, you are an Evertonian, then good for you too, and good on your husband for spreading the gospel.
GH
144   Posted 30/07/2007 at 19:26:54

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Tommy et al

If you are so intelligent maybe you can answer this. Why are the board (who have the most to win/lose in this situation)so adamant that Kirkby is the way fwd?

They have earned millions betwen them, have no doubt consulted a number of "real" experts (not people who claim a lot on a website), and they know the real financial situation of the club.

Surley they would give all well reasearched ideas a thorough going over before making a decision, wouldnt they?
Susan
145   Posted 30/07/2007 at 19:37:47

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GH good on ya, you at least are in the real world.
Tom Hughes
146   Posted 30/07/2007 at 21:59:11

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GH..... what’s this "if you’re so intelligent business?" I posed a few questions no-one has answered them yet because they can’t, and yet they feel they can vote on an issue they are not truly informed about. Which is the whole point. Responses have degenerated into the childishness and even threatening because of the lack of a valid response. I mean read the comments above......! In response to you:
Have the board earned their millions building footy stadiums, or relocating them? How many times has KW been bankcrupt..... is he just a chancer? Are these the same people who gave us the kings Dock/ntl/Fortress debacles? Where they experts or just millionaires then? You ask me if I think they have considered everything, I ask well if they did where’s their findings........ They certainly never looked at the Bestway site, why not? If these people had been doing their jobs how come this potential gem wasn’t unearthed and assessed by the club? Is this perhaps the only way that they can keep control of the club having asset stripped it to the core, and they’re really not wealthy enough to take it any further or sell at a real profit, and therefore regardless of whether the move is the best option we are being told it is the only one. I mean, we haven’t seen any comparative figures at all..... if this really is the no brainer people are saying why not complete transparency? If a full feasibility study has been done for redevelopment and all the other sites first mooted, these costs should be available for us to compare. If not they cannot say this is the only option. On top of that the whole transport issue needs clarifying, the massive shortfall in public Transport in any outer area has to be addressed, the relatively few traffic lanes that pierce the M57 into Kirkby from the main conurbation, and the fact that the vast majority will be travelling in the same direction to and from, as opposed to in all directions from GP. If we can’t get there easily it doesn’t matter if they build the San Siro for us for nothing, crowds will fall and it’ll be a massive white elephant with no easy fix

As far as experts are concerned try this fella, he knows his eggs....Simon Inglis is a world renowned expert on Stadium Architecture History and Design. He has decades of experience and has written many well known publications on the subject, with the history and development of Goodison Park featuring strongly in several of his books. He is also editor for the current edition of the "Green Guide" (Guide to safety at sports grounds). When asked today to give his opinion regarding Everton FC’s proposed move to Kirkby, despite an extremely busy workload he felt strongly enough to give this response:

"By leaving the city of Liverpool, the directors of Everton FC will forever
break the duopoly that has characterised professional football in Liverpool
since 1892.
This will not only permanently alter the character of Everton, but also of
the city as a whole.
The proximity of Goodison and Anfield is a defining part of the city’s
heritage, and a symbol of how allegiances to both clubs are rooted in
cultural factors rather than geographical ones.
If I were an Everton fan, before signing up to the Kirkby proposals I would
want to see clearly defined evidence that Goodison Park is no longer viable,
and that all possible alternative sites within the city have been studied.
If such evidence is not made publicly available then no supporter can hope
to make a properly informed judgement.
Many clubs that have relocated in recent years, such as Bolton, Derby,
Southampton and Sunderland, have not suffered from an acute loss of local
identity, simply because they have no immediate neighbours.
The case of Manchester City cannot be compared with Everton because City’s
new stadium was publicly funded. Similarly, Arsenal’s new stadium is within
the same London borough, and involved a move of less than one mile.
It is my belief that by relocating to Kirkby, the character and constituency
of Everton would undoubtedly be forever changed.
Everton fans must decide whether that is an eventuality that they embrace,
or one they dread.
Put it like this, if a similar proposal were put forward for my club, Aston
Villa, I would be extremely worried."
(Simon Inglis 23/07/2007)

Anyone who has ever read his work will know that he chooses his words carefully. The written word and stadia are his bread and butter. With this in mind I hope the full gravity of all his comments and particularly his final sentence is felt by all discerning Evertonians. He has no axe to grind and no ulterior motives..... just a completely independent opinion based on vast experience in this subject area.
Tom Hughes
147   Posted 30/07/2007 at 22:49:15

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TR.....

Is that your real name?

Congratulations on some fine inputs!

Nil Satis.... Indeed!
GH
148   Posted 30/07/2007 at 22:53:40

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OK Tom, I will assume what you have referenced is correct, I cannot be bothered to check. Fair points well made. However, I think the traffic situation to bestway is gonna be as big aa problem (city centre on a sat afternoon), There will be no partners to go in with, as we wil have to move bestway from the site, plus The cost of the stadium will be massive, all funded solely by us. It aint feasable. We are going to stagnate, with a massive outlay, lower incomes due to less parking, hospitality, functions etc

The team will ultimatley suffer, and that is after all, what we care about more than bricks and mortar.
GH
149   Posted 30/07/2007 at 23:41:35

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Oh and I have always respected the board even during the FSF issue, having been in business before I know how easy it is to be let down by people youthink you can trust. I stand by what they have done since the Johnson years, reversing a shed load of trouble that he put us in. The ship aint steady but we are in better shape now than we were then.
Tom Hughes
150   Posted 31/07/2007 at 11:53:11

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In response to GH:

"I think the traffic situation to bestway is gonna be as big aa problem"

Public transport provision for the city centre is massive, everyone can get there on a one bus, one train, (one ferry even) journey. (Very few parts of Liverpool are linked to Kirkby). Downtown is the only part of the city where that is possible. At present the city centre handles well over 100,000 passengers every rush hour,and quite often similar again at nights on the weekends. The system is designed for more twice that, which is what it was 40 years ago. The whole logistical layout of the city focuses on the city centre. In the US they are building some new stadia downtown without any car parks to encourage full utilisation of public transport, and because most city centres already have these in abundance. So, I can assure you, if there is one place that can cope with big influxes it is the downtown area. Conversely, Kirkby is choked by a few thousand industrial estate workers who live outside of kirkby, as you would expect for a small overflow town (like I said I went there for 6+ years by every mode of transport)



"There will be no partners to go in with, "

A similar finance raising strategy can be used at this far more lucrative site, its precisely what has been done for half the developments in town. Tesco, are not contributing financially to our stadium (or so THEY are saying). Get planning permission, and a design on the board, and watch the investors come knocking as they have already done at most other premiership clubs. The result will be a far more high profile stadium in a constantly growing city-centre.

"hospitality, functions etc"

You can’t tell me a city-centre stadium would not be more likely to attract all that. Far more people go out to the city-centre than will ever go to Kirkby/Speke/Huyton put together. Do you think Kirkby will be a better facility than the King’s dock would have been?

Agreed, the ship is steadier, but more so due to Moyes, agreed they were left all sorts, but some of them were there then too!
susan
151   Posted 31/07/2007 at 15:23:58

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TOM HUGHES

"the move to leave Goodison Park and relocate to Kirby was one of the main reasons i was keen to commit my long-term future to the club during the summer" Tim Cahill



Hey Tom take this to your meeting on Friday 3rd August
susan
152   Posted 31/07/2007 at 15:30:09

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addit

I meant to say your KEIOC meeting.

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