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If Moyes had millions

By Andy Crooks :  13/06/2011 :  Comments (205) :
I have been critical of David Moyes but I am not blind to his many qualities. During his tenure there has been some truly dreadful football at times, However I have been in Goodison Park and witnessed some scintillating stuff. Inconsistency has been a problem but the reasons for it are for another debate.

He has improved average players and has brought in players from lower clubs and made them better.Jagielka, Cahill, Baines and perhaps Beckford are examples. He has for most of the time been a good motivator and has mostly aquited himself with dignity. He has turned out sides capable of matching and beating the best and in the eyes of many he is the best we can hope for.

There are faults; in my view he has underachieved during the last two years. He is stubborn to a fault. His loyalty to some players was once admirable but now ,seems to me, to be misguided. Whatever one thinks of him there can be little doubt that lack of money makes judgement of him difficult.

How would he be rated with money to spend? What if by some miracle this summer he suddenly had unlimited funds? Would we play consistent beautiful football? Would we be in the Champions League in two years? I'm not sure.

Loads of money brings a different set of problems. He has signed players with something to prove. Players who are grateful to move to a bigger club. Players with a sense of owing him something. Big money buys, at least a lot of the time, players with a sense of entitlement. Often, they have proven themselves and are there for the pay day. They need a different style of management. Alex Ferguson is probably the last of the old school. A manager who inspires loyalty and fear. The day of the sergeant major is nearly over.

Moyes's handling of Rooney was fraught with problems. It seems likely that there were problems with Yakubu. How would he handle the real superstars? Those who have been winners and feel that he is not their equal?

At present, he has the admiration of his chairman (he'll never be sacked) The respect of the media , his peers and many, many Evertonians. He has one of the least pressurised jobs in the premier league. With money this could be gone. It takes a certain type. Mark Hughes, widely regarded, was not the type for City. I believe Moyes may well be similar. He's a good manager but, to me, will never be a great one. If we had big money this summer would you trust it to Moyes?

Reader Comments

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David Crowe
1   Posted 13/06/2011 at 19:49:22

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I'd trust him with money, personally, as he's so thorough in his research on players. I've heard countless times how much effort he puts into the job of finding players and making sure they're right for the squad in terms of attitude and personality so I'd trust him as much as anyone really.

Can't think of any manager who's known for being consistent when spending big money anyway. Mistakes will always be made, it's part of the game.
David Hallwood
2   Posted 13/06/2011 at 20:15:10

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Moyes is critisized IMO wrongly for transfers that haven?t worked out, and whenever the subject is raised, Koldrup will be mentioned. But give me a manager that hasn?t made mistakes? SAF the most successful manager in British football, Djemba Djemba anyone? Or Veron how about Kleberson and that?s only for starters. All transfers are a gamble, the player has got to get used to a new club, different systems, training and sometimes different language and culture.

Take David Bentley for instance; 2-3 seasons ago tipped as the man to replace Beckham on England?s right hand side getting rave reviews playing for Blackburn, then this London boy got a dream move to Spurs and sank without a trace. Nobody but nobody could?ve predicted that and sometimes people are too hard on the manager and/or the player because sometimes transfers don?t work out because??well they don?t work out.

So back to Moyes, yes I?d trust him with millions because he?s proved adept in the transfer market and his successes far outweigh the flops.
Joe McMahon
3   Posted 13/06/2011 at 20:29:17

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While he stays at Everton he will never have millions, this is like fantasising about winning the lottery or having sex with Dita Von Tease...it ain't gonna happen.

First of all "Boys Pen Bullshiter Bill" has to sell something thats not actually for sale.
Andy Crooks
4   Posted 13/06/2011 at 20:45:08

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David, I highlighted the good signings Moyes has made. Koldrup was a mistake that was dealt with decisively and correctly. I was trying to focus on what I fear might be Moyes's difficulty in dealing with star players.
Richard Watts
5   Posted 13/06/2011 at 20:53:42

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Let's judge how Moyes would spend big money by looking at the times he has spent, well, big money:

Andy Johnson - £8.6 million. A decent buy who was unlucky with injuries and we recouped some money for. Not bad.

Yakubu - £11.25M. Looked great until hit by serious injury. Unlucky.


Bilyaletdinov - £8.9 million. Has never really looked up to it. A miss.

Fellaini - £15m. A top price for a top player. Again unlucky with injury but is a star when fit.

So one bad buy and three decent buys marred by some terrible luck. That beats most managers' record. How would we feel if we'd paid £10m for Jeffers or £22m for Lescott?
Ian Tunstead
6   Posted 13/06/2011 at 21:03:17

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As David says Andy, Moyes is just as much interested in the attitude and personality of the player as he is with their ability and skill, that is why i dont believe he would have too many problems with star players.

I think if Moyes had money he would bring in more young talented players like Falliani who still have a bit to proove without the ego and eventually bring some success to the club by developing them, by which time Moyes would have the credibility and respect to go for the bigger "stars" if he wanted.
Stephen Kenny
7   Posted 13/06/2011 at 21:48:46

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IMO Moyes is second only to Wenger with money to spend early in the market.

His record of improving players could be worth a fortune for a club like us, it's certainly the only sustainable way for us to generate income.

Sadly he refuses to see the bigger picture and refuses to move players on at the peak of their value, something you can't really blame a genuinely ambitious man for.

Some of his character traits are the ones that make him a good manager, but there's others that hold him back from being a great one. Everton will need a great manager to win things in this country with the way the league is.

Guessing how he'd get on with a bit of money or with big names is pointless because were never going to be in a position to find out!
Trevor Mackie
8   Posted 13/06/2011 at 22:12:42

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I think he'd struggle with big names because they tend to be strong characters - a trait notably absent in his teams.
David Crowe
9   Posted 13/06/2011 at 22:39:26

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I get that Andy, I'm just saying when you hear about previously celebrated managers such as Sven signing players having only watched a couple of tapes of them, you've got to be thankful for what we've got in Moyes. He's not soft and good managers know it. That's why Redknapp watches Moyes's every move waiting price us out of our top targets at every opportunity.
Trevor Lynes
10   Posted 13/06/2011 at 22:42:55

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I read the article with interest...my only real problem is with the mention of both Baines and Jags coming from 'lesser' clubs and being improvede....both of these players were academy players at EFC and were released...they were actually developed elsewhere and then we BOUGHT them back, which is a criticism I made some time ago...
Dick Fearon
11   Posted 13/06/2011 at 22:37:20

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Andy C, there's nothing my wife enjoys more yet I hate with a passion is mooching around Op shops. Like it or lump it poor old Davy is a bit of a moocher. The difference between my better half and Davy is that she does it for fun while he has no other option and that is a cross he has to bear for as long as he is at Everton.
Richard W @ 5, I beg to differ on the Yak. Long before that injury he was cak and it was a growing thought he was angling for a transfer. Thats when Moyes should have got rid of him.
Trevo M @ 8, I would replace your words,'be strong characters' with,' heads as big as Birkenhead'.
David Mathieson
12   Posted 14/06/2011 at 00:25:20

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I wonder how Moyes would do at Chelsea? There is a job going, big money, top four club; it ticks all the boxes for Moyes to ?progress? The only problem being they seem to not be interested in the best pound for pound manager in the Universe.

I would be interested to see how Moyes would do at a club with a large amount of Money to spend on transfers and or wages like Chelsea or Arsenal but I doubt we will ever find out.
Roman Sidey
13   Posted 14/06/2011 at 00:45:21

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Only read the title, here is my finish to the sentence fragment:

... he's waste it.
Brendan O'Doherty
14   Posted 14/06/2011 at 02:18:54

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.... he'd be a very rich man.

BTW Andy, nice to see a mellowing of your view of DM from last autumn. Just to remind you,at that time he was a man you "only have utter contempt for."

Decent and balanced post, keep it up.

I won't be answering your question as it's completely hypothetical; there is nothing to be gained by speculating on what the answer might be.





James Flynn
15   Posted 14/06/2011 at 02:08:59

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Dave (12) - Because O'MafiaOvich expects managers to genuflect to him. After all, he bounced the "Chosen One" and Hiddink saved a season (left's be fair - the ref fucked Chelsea against Barca), yet still hasn't signed on.

Moyes is out of the "hard men" school. Signing up with Caponeovich? Seeing is believing.

Moyes would be great for Chelsea same for ManU, ManCity, etc. Same as he is with us.

So let's keep him. He's re-built the team these last 2 years. And still kept us right outside the Top 4. Next year for EFC moving up is in play.
Matt Traynor
16   Posted 14/06/2011 at 03:22:03

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Many considerations....
Managers with money, not used to spending it. Where do they shop? Woy of the Wedshite spent some big bucks on dross when he was there for 5 mins, but as others point out, many managers used to spending big make bad signings. I think when Moyes has spent big (by our standards), he's been generally good.

Dealing with "Star" players? Depends on your definition, but I think you mean dealing with Primadona's who think they're Maradona's?

Personally, I couldn't stand to have many if any of those at our club. So Moyes wouldn't last 5 mins at Man City with some of the "stars" they have? Good on him.

One of the things that is fairly unique amongst EPL clubs now is how close Everton is to its fanbase. Not just in terms of work done in the community, but in participation of senior players, the manager, and directors in events - a lot organised by the fans, for the fans.

I think that is something that players have to buy into when they sign for us. There might be one or two who don't, and it's their choice, but I hope that aspect of our club never changes.
James Flynn
17   Posted 14/06/2011 at 03:00:54

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Hallwood (2) - Well-said and thank you.

Here we have the guy with the least to do the most and so many want him gone.

Moyes would have the same success put in SAF, Mourinho, etc shoes. Where I'd like to see if they would do as well in his EFC shoes.

He's re-built the Club these last 2 years. Let's see what happens next season. Up we go, finally, I say.
Gavin Ramejkis
18   Posted 14/06/2011 at 07:37:05

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A poignant question to ask would be if Moyes had millions would he still stick to a 4-5-1 at all costs just with more expensive versions of the utility players he has a hard on for now and would his tactics remain to substitute like for like just with more expensive versions or would he finallly consider other formations and game changing substitutions?
Steve Pugh
19   Posted 14/06/2011 at 08:49:10

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If Moyes had millions he would be able to have cover for every position and therefore wouldn't be forced to buy utility players as he is now.
Eric Myles
20   Posted 14/06/2011 at 09:03:50

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Richard #5, they are only 'big money' signings for Everton and relatively unheard of players before they signed for us except for The Yak.

They are not what you would call primadonna's with ego's to match their salaries and transfer fees like at City, or Chelsea.
Tommy Coleman
21   Posted 14/06/2011 at 09:36:00

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He's had money to spend, breaking our transfer record 3 times.

Overall he's spent £150m but still won nothing.
Dave Wilson
22   Posted 14/06/2011 at 09:25:28

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"A good Manager but, to me he will never be a great one"

There are no "Great" managers any more Andy.

The uneven playing field created by the restructuring of the league and the obscene amount of money sloshing around amongst the chosen few has cast a shadow over the achievments of them all - "what if Moyes/woy/ Martinez had money ? " is about as redundant a question as "what if Jose/ Mancini / Fergie didnt ?"

Nobody has made more disasterous signings than SAF - David #2 barely scratches the surface and try keeping a straight face when you look at the transfer dealings.of a host of Chelsea managers.

Any manager - even Mancini - will eventually succeed if he`s given enough funds and enough time.

Many people will point to Moyes`s record against the big clubs in the early days and use it as a stick to beat him, but Moyes Inherited that squad, he has had to be patient, without funds his current squad has taken him 7/8 years to assemble. ALL of the clubs who finished above us STILL have more expensive talented squads . . . but they all struggle to beat us. That would suggest/prove Moyes is a superior tatician to their managers.

SAF had his tactical nous cruelly exposed TWICE at Wembley this season . . but it doesnt matter, he`ll simply buy more players and will probably win the league next season and be proclaimed an all time great.

Would having money to spend on top class strikers improve Moyes`s chances of finding the consistancy to actually challenge over a hole season ? . . . Is that even contestable ?
Dave Wilson
23   Posted 14/06/2011 at 10:11:17

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Tommy

150 Million ? did your hero Kenwright tell you that ?

Derek Thomas
24   Posted 14/06/2011 at 09:34:10

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I'd rather trust Moyes with 50mill than BB
Andy Crooks
25   Posted 14/06/2011 at 11:30:16

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Brendan, I tend to mellow close season, get slighyly optimistic by August, then get angry again in Autumn. My comments last Autumn were made from frustration and anger. Yes, I have mellowed. To me the great thing about this site is hearing views contrary to your own and now and again taking them on board. Dave Wilson made the point that Kenwright couldn't be trusted to replace Moyes. I don't entirely agree but it's a fair point..
Dave I fear that Moyes's personality would make dealing with star players a problem.
Matt I agree with you about prima donnas but unfortunately they are now part of the game and have to be managed.
Daniel A Johnson
26   Posted 14/06/2011 at 12:22:05

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HERE'S THE PROBLEM.

I'd trust Moys to spend the money wisely BUT I wouldn't trust him to use the players/squad properly.

The season just gone Moyes fucked up his tactics and team selections enough times to make me think he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing. Thats with the same group of players hes had for over 5yrs.

God help us if he blew £150M ? I think Moyes's brain might melt.
Mike Allison
27   Posted 14/06/2011 at 13:01:26

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Its a very good OP and an interesting question. The answer is basically yes, I would trust Moyes with money.

I agree that there is a difference in skills between managers with little money, looking for bargains and hungry players, and those superstar managers who have to manage the big wages and the big egos.

However, I disagree with the assumption you then make, which is that if we had money, we would be signing big, proven stars who feel they're better than Moyes. I don't want to be Man City and spend £100M in one summer, and overpay wages horrendously to the point where you know they are only there for the money. Having money can still mean we buy young, up and coming players, maybe from France, Belgium or Holland, or perhaps from other English clubs, either Premier League or not, but they will be young up and coming players who weren't available to us with no money. Fellaini is a prime example of this type of player in my opinion.

I think if he had money, Moyes would look to make a couple of Fellaini-type (young, hungry, not yet proven but obviously quality) signings, as well as the obvious extra centre back, not blow it all trying to sign Kaka and Ronaldo on £500k a week, which frankly, I think looks embarrassing for Man City when it becomes clear some players simply won't play for them for any amount of money.
Tommy Coleman
28   Posted 14/06/2011 at 16:00:10

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Dave - You know I don't like Bullshit Bill.

I hold my hands, £150m was a guess, It's actually around £120m.

http://www.toffeeweb.com/players/transfers.asp

It's not 100% accurate though, for example it doesn't include loan fees or the Pienaar transfer for example.

£120m is more than enough to build a side that is capable of winning a trophy. That's £30m less than Arsenal over the same period.
Do you think if Moyes had the extra £30m he'd be able to produce a team like Arsenal ? Of course not.
Mark Stone
29   Posted 14/06/2011 at 16:44:30

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More than just a little nieve, that argument Tommy.
Brian Waring
30   Posted 14/06/2011 at 16:43:43

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David ( #2 ) If Moyes takes all the plaudits for the good buys he has made, then surely he should take criticism for the bad ones?

Dennis Stevens
31   Posted 14/06/2011 at 17:17:25

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Moyes does have millions - we pay him a few more every year!
Dave Wilson
32   Posted 14/06/2011 at 16:57:51

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Tommy

your argument is more than a little naive, its actually makes for painful reading.

Moyes has never had the luxury of being able to pay top dollar, like Wenger.
When Wenger was able to pay top stars like Henry, Petite, Vierra,Bergkemp etc to come to Arsenal, Moyes was struggling to pay the likes of Osman and Hibbo.

Wenger has never had to sell his top stars in order to buy cheap replacements, Moyes on the other hand has pulled in nearly as much as he has spent.
Try looking at it logiocally lad, it would only need the sale of Jack Rodwell to put Moyese`s net spend into the black. W
Dave Wilson
33   Posted 14/06/2011 at 17:27:50

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Wenger has spent more on Fabrigas`s wages in the past i8 months than Moyes has had to bring in players.

I get really sickened by posts that claim Moyes has had money.

It sends a very clear message to Kenwright that its ok to give the Everton Manger less than every other manager in the prem.

I have said it before and I will say it again : The people who want to score cheap, weak arsed points against Moyes by claiming our chairman backs him are quite simply betraying every match going Evertonian who stumps up a fortune only for the chairman to be told he is doing a fine job backing his manager.
Dave Wilson
34   Posted 14/06/2011 at 17:37:32

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Andy

It isnt long ago that you were pleading for Moyes to "for gods sake go" and telling everyone we were in a relegation dogfight, your faux praise fools nobody.

Moyes`s players have repeatedly said they will run through a brick wall for him, so why dream up such ridiculous claims against him ?

I mean he`s hardly likely to sign a knobhead like Baloteli is he ?

back up your claim - actually lets take it to the other extreme : name a manager who has had less trouble with his players than Moyes
Ian Tunstead
35   Posted 14/06/2011 at 17:46:39

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Yes Tommy an that's why there are growing numbers of Arsenal fans who are sick of Wenger because he too hasnt won a trophy for a good few years, since the majority of his old gaurd defence retired that was already put in place before he arrived. He has struggled ever since to get his defence right. Moyes had to build his team from scratch, only Ossie and Hibbo withstanding

£120m is nothing in comparrison to what some of the other teams in the prem have spent over the same period.
Andy Crooks
36   Posted 14/06/2011 at 18:04:47

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Dave , my praise of Moyes is genuine. Of course my fundamental belief hasn't changed but it doesn't make me blind to his qualities. I certainly wouldn't be heartbroken if he were to change his mind and go to somewhere like Villa, though.
David Moyes doesn't have too much trouble for exactly the reasons I stated in my post. Many of his players have a sense of gratitude rather than entitlement. He has buily a loyal squad. I think that Wenger and Ferguson do pretty well with their players and they have included some prima donnas.
Dave Wilson
37   Posted 14/06/2011 at 18:15:33

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Ferguson

Fell out with Stam, Forlan, VNR, Beckham. Tevez, Ronaldo to name just a few, all world class players he couldnt handle, he did however have the sheer dumb luck of having a crop of very talented youngsters who were and still are eternally grateful to be there.

When Rooney told him he was off in January he was telling the world that Man U could not win the title without him.

Fergie responded with superb man management skills . . . by dropping his kecks bending over and agreeing to pay Rooney anything he wanted, he was agreeing with him - man management doesnt half come easy to those who pay 200k a week.


Wenger has pissed just about everyone connected with Arsenal, thats why the fanbase is up in arms and half of his playing staff are threatening to leave, perhaps they realise that depite the incredible advantages he enjoys, he hasnt managed to win a single thing without George Grahams back four.


And whats happened to Fabrigas, and Arshavin ? they seem to have gone the same way as Cole - shite

Perhaps one of Moyes`s closest observers will come on and tell us Wenger has "coached all the talent from them"
Gavin Ramejkis
38   Posted 14/06/2011 at 19:12:36

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Steve #19, Moyes has bought utility players all through his time at the club even when he had money to spend
Dave Wilson
39   Posted 14/06/2011 at 19:26:17

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name them
David Hallwood
40   Posted 14/06/2011 at 19:19:58

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Brian Waring#30, no argument from me with that one, however that wasn't the question Andy asked, he said would you trust Moyes with millions and IMO he's been a lot more success percentage-wise with his transfers than a lot than most managers, and as another poster pointed out has probably been more hamstrung by not being able to pay top dollar than buying poor quality players.
Ian Tunstead
41   Posted 14/06/2011 at 19:46:49

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I dont agree Gavin, but its good management to bring in players who can play in diffrent positions especially with having to manage such a small squad.

I suppose Giggs and Rooney are utility players because they have played in more than one position for Man U.
Stephen Kenny
42   Posted 14/06/2011 at 20:03:42

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IMO transfers and transfer dealings are the one definite area you are not going to find a stick to beat David Moyes with.
Tommy Coleman
43   Posted 14/06/2011 at 20:16:55

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Dave, how about this logic, Moyes has a £12m loss in player purchases/sales, in the same period Wenger has made £4m profit.
Wenger took over a team who were finishing around 7th and built a superb football team that won leagues and cups. Moyes will never achieve what Wenger has, ever.

You and Ian T are totally deluded if you both think Moyes is a better manager than Wenger, which is what you are both impying and it's embarrassing for you both to even think it.

This is the best job Moyes will ever have, none of the bigger teams will employ him and you must ask yourself this question, if he's so good why have no big team gone for him. After Everton he'll go to Celtic, still without a trophy and we will still be having the same arguments untill he does go. Of course he'll win things with Celtic but so could a monkey.
Gavin Ramejkis
44   Posted 14/06/2011 at 20:27:07

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Dave #39 was that to me?

Ian #41 my response was to Steve's notion that Moyes has only bought utility players through not having transfer funds and my response was no he has done so during right through his tenure

Yobo - 2002 (original loan signed FT 2003) tried in midfield, failed reverted to centre half
McFadden - 2003 played in midfield, winger and striker
Cahill - 2004 played in various positions, central mid, striker, winger
Arteta - 2005 played as winger and central midfield (defensive and attacking)
Neville - 2005 played as right back and defensive midfielder
Lescott - 2006 played left back and centre half
Jagielka - 2007 played defensive mid and centre half, fortunately kept at centre half as same result as experiment with Yobo
Gosling - 2008 defender played as winger
Fellaini - 2008 played as defensive mid, attacking mid and striker
Bilyaletdinov - 2009 played as winger both sides and on rare occasion central mid
Heitinga - 2009 played as centre half but predominantly as defensive mid

to name the obvious ones

Stephen #42 I'm not looking to berate the kudos in having players to cover multiple roles if you haven't a pot to piss in but Moyes has bought players and used them all over the park since he has been here
David Thomas
45   Posted 14/06/2011 at 20:51:40

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Gavin,

Could you name me a manager who has not bought players who can play in a number of positions and has subsequently played them in a number of different positions?

What would your view on Ferguson be? Has he always brought utility players throughout his tenure?

Roy Keane has played in central midfield and once or twice he has played in central defence.

Wayne Rooney has played in midfield on the wing and up front

Ronaldo has played on the wing and up front

Heinze has played central defence and left back

Valencia has played at full back and on either wing

David May played full back and in central defence

McClair played midfield and up front

I think these arguements against Moyes are becoming so weak that it is only enforcing the belief of people that think he is doing a good job that they are 100% correct.
Gavin Ramejkis
46   Posted 14/06/2011 at 21:19:36

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David you've missed my point which was in response to the OP, my poignant question would be would Moyes still shop for utility players and stick to his tried and tested 4-5-1 even if he had money to spend or would he change his tune of 4-5-1 given more money to spend and would he continue to make like for like changes or make game changing and formation changing subs instead if he had money to buy, it wasn't a stick it was a question as an extension of the original article premise. Him getting money is extremely unlikely so it's all theoretical anyway.

My viewpoint on Ferguson is that he has been pound for pound the best manager in football for over fifteen years, his bad signings haven't caused major problems as the football he works for had the foresight to build it as a business and not old boy's club and took advantage of the money out there to be made, don't forget Dave we were at that top table when the Premier started, look at us now.
Gavin Ramejkis
47   Posted 14/06/2011 at 21:26:23

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should read football club he works for
Andy Crooks
48   Posted 14/06/2011 at 23:18:11

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Dave, I'm not going to say you are a great fan of David Moyes but you do defend him stoutly. How do you rate him? If Kenwright was gone and funds were in place would he be your first choice?
Ian Tunstead
49   Posted 14/06/2011 at 23:02:12

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Exactly Tommy, Wenger took over a side finishing around 7th were as Moyes took over a side finishing closer to 17th. I?m not saying Moyes is a better manager than Wenger, and even if he isn?t that is no disgrace to Moyes, but the fact is Wenger isn?t exactly winning much lately is he because as you point out there are other teams out spending him every year in the same way teams are out spending Everton each year which is why it is unlikely Everton will win a trophy who ever is in charge unless more money is given to the manager to bring in quality players.
David Mathieson
50   Posted 14/06/2011 at 23:36:48

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Dave Wilson 37#
I am afraid you have a habit of making things up ?he hasnt managed to win a single thing without George Grahams back four? The only team to manage an invincible season was Wenger?s, do tell me how many George Graham signings were in that squad?! One maybe, maximum certainly zero of George?s back four!
Tommy Coleman
51   Posted 14/06/2011 at 23:37:20

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Ok Ian, Moyes has had a "7th place team" for a few years now, did you think he will go on to reach the successes of Wenger ? Or even go on to win a trophy ? How long will you give him ? Or is 7th as good as it gets ?
Next time just say "yes, Wenger is better" rather than argue Moyes' case against him because there is no comparison. And that is my point in naming someone like Wenger, fans like yourself and Dave Wilson would have us think that no one could do a better job than Moyes, that we can't do better. We can do better and I believe Moyes has had his chance, we are now slowly beginning to go backwards with him.
John Daley
52   Posted 14/06/2011 at 23:54:22

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"Moyes`s players have repeatedly said they will run through a brick wall for him"

Who said that then? Lying bastards. They can't even run through the opposition defence for him
Ian Tunstead
53   Posted 15/06/2011 at 00:00:53

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It is a different proposition now Tommy to when Wenger first arrived as he is beginning to find out. The millions spent by Chelsea and Man City along with the usual millions spent by Man U will more than likely cement the 3 top positions for themselves and they will likely dominate the cup competitions as Man U and Chelsea have been doing and now Man City winning their first of many to come.

The top teams tend to stay the top as they have a strangle hold on the CL money and the players and sponsors that it attracts. If Moyes can take 4th place ahead of Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs and qualify for the CL then yes it might then be possible for Moyes to achieve the same kind of success as Wenger, but this would take a great season from Everton and poor season from the rest.

As for winning a trophy, Moyes has the same chance of winning a trophy as Birmingham, it is possible but it is unlikely. I would give Moyes as long as it takes because there is nobody out there would be willing to take the Everton job that could do a better job than Moyes. Realistically 7th is as good as it gets.

As for the Wenger debate, all you have to do is listen to phone ins of Arsenal fans and a large portion of them come out with the same nonsense to criticise Wenger. There will always be fans like yourself whatever the team who are deluded into thinking we can compete with other teams consistently who spend more on transfers and wages and can offer CL football.
Spragg Johnson
54   Posted 15/06/2011 at 01:31:34

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7th is one better than last season ? we'll win the league in 5 years at this rate!

Injuries and other bad luck have hindered things (if Beckford's perfectly good goals vs Wigan and Villa had been allowed we'd have 4 more points level with the Shite) ...

People ? it could be worse: I live in Christchurch, New Zealand ... we've had four major earthquakes in 8 months, the city is in ruins and our local team (Crusaders Rugby) cannot play at home at all.

So, as Eric Idle sang, "Always look on the bright side of life ... dee dum, dee dum de dum de dum de dum!"

Come on you Toffees!!
James Flynn
55   Posted 15/06/2011 at 01:58:43

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JD (53) - Behave
James Flynn
56   Posted 15/06/2011 at 02:04:08

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Dave (45) - Good one. The difference with those teams is predators we don't have.

Excellent post.
James Flynn
57   Posted 15/06/2011 at 02:25:54

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Dave (37) - Fantastic post. And you forgot VanNistelrooy (in his prime no less).

Fucking failure Moyes is. Hahahahah.
Roman Sidey
58   Posted 15/06/2011 at 02:37:48

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Right. I read the original story now after getting back from work - no disrespect earlier, Andy, I was just in a rush to catch the tram to work. Good article, pointing out both sides of Moyes' coin.

My opinion of the man in charge at Everton is no secret, so it won't come as a surprise that I don't think Moyes would win the league if he had double what Man City are spending these days.

I think people need to stop using money as the main excuse as to why we can't crack that top 4 or even win a cup. Once those players are on the field, no matter how much money they cost or get paid, the pitch, the goal, the ball, the 18 yard box is the same size for them as it is for a bloke getting double the money. And let's face it; if these guys are on anything over 15k a week, they're in the "overpaid for what they produce in society" bracket.

Has anyone seen what Rayo Vallecano have done in Spain? They just got promoted to La Liga, and half their club have not been paid in half a season! Money isn't everything, especially in sport.

My last bone to pick with people defending Moyes to the hilt about his transfers (some good some bad, in my opinion) is Fellaini. Yes, he is a good player. Yes, he is still very young. Does anyone seriously believe, though, that he is, or was ever worth being our record signing?
Dave Wilson
59   Posted 15/06/2011 at 05:32:00

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Tommy #43

Try to see the difference lad, Arsenal and Everton operate in two different worlds.

Arsenals wage is about 65m A YEAR more than Evertons. this means they can attract people like Van Percie and Fabrigas, from the word go for practically nothing.

Wenger was able to sell players like Pettite, Vierra, Anelka, Overmas, Toure for around 100m after paying around 10m for them because when the were going on the cheap he was able to offer top dollar wages to attract them in the first place.

Nobody is comparing Wengers job to Moyes`s (except you) because its like comparing apples to Oranges.

Wenger has the funds available to him to sign and pay the wages of any player on the planet . . . Meanwhile Moyes scratches his chin wondering whether to take a chance on Bothroyd.

The biggest irony of all is : while the Arsenal fans are up in arms because Wenger wont spend the money made available to him by his board - which by the way is costing them trophies - . .you are warmly applauding our board for providing our manager with a pittence.

When you people claim our board have made sufficient funds available, you accept that giving our manager nothing is ok . . You who complain about "mediocrity" are the very reason for it.

Perhaps you`d be happy if Moyes had spent around 30m for Jeffers, Wiltord, and Reyes - whats that after wages ? about 3-4m quid a goal ?
Eric Myles
60   Posted 15/06/2011 at 07:27:10

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If Moyes had millions, what a joke, Kenshite can't even scrape together 300k for a goalie!!
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Everton-Wigan-transfer-news-Moyes-struggling-find-4-5m-N-Zogbia-down-payment-must-sell-Yobo-Yakubu-raise-funds-article746955.html
David Holroyd
61   Posted 15/06/2011 at 07:28:05

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Moyes best chance was about 3 seasons ago of winning things. Its going to get a lot harder, i know Birmingham won the League Cup last season but i BELIEVE thats the last time one of us smaller teams will win anything in the forseable future.Money is king look at the turnover of Liverpool 184 mill 105 more than us , with that brings ability to buy and pay younger and better players. 7th is the best we can look forward to, better get used to it.
David Thomas
62   Posted 15/06/2011 at 08:02:00

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"He's had money to spend, breaking our transfer record 3 times"



Tommy,

So in your opinion Kenwright has supported the manager with sufficient funds during his tenure?
Mark Stone
63   Posted 15/06/2011 at 09:06:00

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Tommy, how well do you think that the Everton team Moyes inherited, compared with the Arsenal team Wenger inherited?
Dave Wilson
64   Posted 15/06/2011 at 08:30:25

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Andy

No, Moyes would not be my first choice if we were a wealthy club, but we arent, so he is.

I`m not defending Moyes stoutly, I`m arguing the points. In my opinion top players are usually no trouble at all, thats why they are top players. Of course there are one or two exceptions but its usually the players who THINK they are superstars who are problematic. Your assumption that Moyes would not be able to deal with top players is completely groundless, as is a lot of the criticism on this thread.

One guy #26 seems to think Heitinga, Bily, Distin, Coleman, Beckford, Maggie Saha have all been here five years . . . WTF is that about ?

And dont you think Gavin #44 has things a little arse about face ? He seems to think Moyes goes for utility players simply because he has demonstrated an ability - not to mention a need - to utilise the players he has bought.

And the claim made by several people that Kenwright and his board have provided sufficient funds is an insult and a betrayal to ALL Evertonians. . .do these people think if Moyes goes, the new manager will suddenly be provided with a huge transfer kitty with which to compete ?

I`m sick to death of spending a fortune watching a team that has no hope of bringing in top players because people like Tommy are prepared to give the Board a massive thumbs up with their ridiculous claims that Moyes has had sufficient funds to be competing at the top. there are clubs TWO DIVISIONS down with more to spend than the once mighty Everton FFS !



Dave Wilson
65   Posted 15/06/2011 at 09:12:53

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David #50
forgive me, my mnemory seems to be playing tricks . .only I have this image of Tony Adams scoring against us and David Seaman doing cartwheels celebrating . . just before Wenger walked onto the pitch to to show off the latest league title he had won with the defence he had inherited.

And who was it who hit RVNR in the stomach after he missed a penalty against the "invincibles" ?

Like I say My memory must be playing tricks on me . . remind me again, how much did Wenger spend on Parlour or that Dutch fella who was absolutely pivotal to everything they did ?
Tommy Coleman
66   Posted 15/06/2011 at 09:44:10

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You can't argue with deluded people who can't even admit that there are better managers than David Moyes.

Our opinions are too far apart.
Trevor Mackie
67   Posted 15/06/2011 at 10:15:48

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Tommy

Couldn't agree more, some of these people won't have a word said against Moyes - ludicrous.
Dave Wilson
68   Posted 15/06/2011 at 10:41:06

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Tommy/Trevor

I criticise Moyes more than the pair of you put together. I have never said there isnt a better manager. . . but unlike you I will never try to convince Evertonians that this board has sufficiently backed our manager . . . I know they know better than to swallow that shite anyway.

Your acceptance of the situation will ensure nothing changes . . you might want to think about that before you accuse other people of being deluded.

if Kenwright reads TW he must be creaming himself over you posts.

James Frame
69   Posted 15/06/2011 at 11:06:26

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I have never posted before but read the site a lot. It is entertaining but a bit negative. I think Mr Moyes has done a super job with bad resources. There are peple on here like the poster and many others who cannot say a good word about him. Does the editor encourage this and publis all their stuff. No offence meant Mr K it is only a query. Let us all unite behind our manager and take the club back were they belong.
James Boden
70   Posted 15/06/2011 at 11:27:24

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Dave Wilson while I can appreciate the points you are trying to make there were a few comments which make your suggestions laughable- . 'ALL of the clubs who finished above us STILL have more expensive talented squads . . . but they all struggle to beat us. That would suggest/prove Moyes is a superior tatician to their managers.

SAF had his tactical nous cruelly exposed TWICE at Wembley this season . . but it doesnt matter, he`ll simply buy more players and will probably win the league next season and be proclaimed an all time great'.

So if Moyes is tactically superior to all them managers then wouldn't that make Brian McDermott of Reading Football Club (yes Reading Football Club) superior to David Moyes when it comes to tactics because back in march 'The Moyesiah' was outfoxed by a Nationwide League team.

For the record I would like to add that I don't actually consider Mancini superior to Moyes because he hasn't done anything which I think anyone could argue is exceptional with or without money and really has had everything landed to him on a plate.
As for Wenger although he inherited a good team he made them better and to go through an entire season unbeaten is sensational.

As for Ferguson, well I can't even argue against his record right back to his Aberdeen days even if I wanted to.
James Boden
71   Posted 15/06/2011 at 11:32:50

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James Frame I should point out that the poster of this article state he had seen some tremendous football played under Moyes. If that isn't enough praise for you then that is just unfortunate but he did at least have the decency to say something good no matter how small.
David Mathieson
72   Posted 15/06/2011 at 11:24:33

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Dave 65#
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003%E2%80%9304_Arsenal_F.C._season
There is the team ^^^. It seems an ageing Keown got under my radar who played a bit part role, it also contains the most used team that season which contained none of George?s back five.

I am not denying Wenger didn't inherit good players but his invincible team was very much his own. For me Moyes did inherit some good players as well such as Gravesen & Carsley; there was also Rooney who was sold to raise Moyes 30 million, definitely gives Moyes an advantage over the team Smith inherited.
Roman Sidey
73   Posted 15/06/2011 at 11:41:58

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James, well pointed out. Some people think that those of us who don't want Moyes at Everton anymore just have something against him for no reason. Quite the opposite.

My mates used to give me shit about how much I supported Moyes even though we weren't winning anything, and now give me shit because I've changed my mind (when did changing your mind become a crime?).

My opinion of the manager changed about a season after he'd held the club to ransom for a massive contract, making hime, at the time, the highest paid Everton squad member. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't he spent the last 6-12 months off-loading some of the higher end earners at the club that haven't been performing (or in Peanuts' case have been performing)?

Seems odd that he's hold out for so much money when he knows better than anyone that the club has no money.
Dave Wilson
74   Posted 15/06/2011 at 11:51:55

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James

We are talking about Moyes team playing against the top six 24 times over the past two seasons, if you want to compare Readings one off cup result to that . . go ahead, knock yourself out. and which part of SAF having his tactical nous cruelly exposed twice at Wemebley this year di you find particularly laughable ? maybe its the way I tell em.

David

I think you`ll find MOST of Wengers success was with a defence he inherited, Keown played more than a bit part in the side you speak about and Wenger had nothing to do with Bergkamp, Cole, Parlour being at the club, In fact if memory serves me right . . wasnt Vierra already there when Arsene arrived too ?

I think you`ll also find that Wenger has never had to sell a player in order for the club to survive, but if you are happy to compare Graversen and Carsley with Cole and Berkamp thats fine by me.

Its easier to win things when you have a Genious in your ranks, could that be why Wenger hasnt won a thing since Denis the menace called it a day ?
Dave Wilson
75   Posted 15/06/2011 at 12:21:35

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You see, Roman, you are a prime example of the sort made up criticism I`m talking about

"Moyes held the club to ransom." ? WTF is that about? No he didn't, it's just made-up shite. The offer had been on the table for months and the cheeky twat was considering turning it down, probably would have done if Sir Bobby Robson hadn't put him straight.

Kenwright should have fucked him off there and then for even thinking about it... but he didn't have the balls.
Roman Sidey
76   Posted 15/06/2011 at 12:34:28

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Look, Dave, the way I read it in the media was that he kept deliberating on signing a contract because the amount wasn't enough, and he was holding out for a bigger job.

If this wasn't the case, then the issue is with the media that is made avaibable to supporters abroad.

The main point I'm making there though, is that if he's on 65k a week, but he's trying to get people off the books that are on a lot less than that, it is a bit silly don't you think. Apparently he loves Everton. If he did, maybe he'd have negotiated a smaller package for the better of the club.
James Boden
77   Posted 15/06/2011 at 13:10:17

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Dave what did United's Wembley defeats have anything to do with Everton's record against them or anyone else in the top 4 or Sky 4 whatever it is called.
Maybe you have a point about The City defeat in the Cup but Barcelona have the finest footballers on this planet and 9 times out of 10 a managers tactics will be overcome against the unbelievable quality. How you can judge Ferguson on that is beyond me.

And no the Reading result was not a one off because in the same season we were also knocked out of a cup competition by The Giants that were BRENTFORD FOOTBALL CLUB! Yes there is your genius Moyes there, the bloke who is superior to Sir Alex, Wenger or anyone else.
I don't actually have any beef with your support of Moyes to a degree because he has earnt it, that is unquestionable.

As for the Wenger arguement to an extent or rather alot he is to the detriment of Arsenal now because of his incredible stubborness. However despite that you cannot argue with a bloke who has won 2 doubles and went an entire campaign unbeaten. Also their record of 49 games unbeaten will take some beating. Also it's worth noting that not ONE of the Famous Back 5 or six if you add Bould into the equation where in the untouchables team and only Keown was even in the squad. Let's give credit where it's due for spotting the likes of Lauren and Toure from nowhere. Finally of the Wenger front he bought Anelka for 500k then sold him for 23 million just 2 years later. Who was his replacement? Thierry Henry- No more needs to be said.
Roman Sidey
78   Posted 15/06/2011 at 13:27:05

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Moyes out.
David Thomas
79   Posted 15/06/2011 at 13:18:27

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I think Dave Wilson summed it up well when he mentioned about people just making shite up.

Tommy,
When has anyone said that there is not better managers than Moyes?

Also, back to my question in post 62

Tommy,

So in your opinion Kenwright has supported the manager with sufficient funds during his tenure?
Roman Sidey
80   Posted 15/06/2011 at 13:48:43

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David, plenty of people get on here and quote the "pound for pound he's the best manager in England/Europe" tripe all the time. This suggests that, if all the managers had an equal amount of money to spend on players as they do in other countries and sports, then Moyes would be the best manager.

Now, I'm not going to support Kenwright, as I think he's a twat. However, he has given Moyes money to spend in the past - Yakubu, Fellaini spring to mind. In a very rare defense of Bill over Moyes though, it's only the last 12 months that Moyes has not been able to trade in the transfer window. Last summer he was offered x and y for Pienaar and Yakubu, and declined, saying the squad was the best he'd had, and the fact that we had so many injured players coming back meant he didn't need to bring in anyone.

Fast forward six months, and after fucking everything up in the first part of the season, Moyes all of a sudden doesn't have such a super squad, and has to actually sell Pienaar for x/2 and let Yakubu go on loan to a Champ team and maybe recoup another x/2 for him if terms can eventually be agreed.

Not sure where you guys buy your milk, but I really hope you don't follow Moyes' money management scheme to the finest details, because there are flaws.
Dave Wilson
81   Posted 15/06/2011 at 14:29:25

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James tbh mate I dont give a flying fuck about Arsenal or Man U, I didnt bring them into the debate. Every manager suffers embarressment in the cups - they aere one off knock outs - Beckford at OT ?

I`m more concerned about Everton, I am not defending Moyes here just tackling Made up shite on this thread.

Roman #80

A couple of challenges for you :

1) Point me in the direction of a single post - seeing as there are plenty - anywhere on TW, ON ANY THREAD, where somebody claims Moyes is the best pound for pound manager in England /Europe. Dont feel the need to find me plenty . . just the one will do

2) point me in the direction of a single report -anywhere in the world - that told you Moyes was holding the club to ransome by demanding more money.

actually there a third, but if you cant deal with the first two the third doesnt matter.

Tommy Coleman
82   Posted 15/06/2011 at 14:56:21

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David Thomas ?

1. Every time people compare Moyes to Wenger, Mourinho etc you always gets people like Dave Wilson defending Moyes to the death, just read this post for example. Instead he should just admit that they are better rather than arguing, it just looks like they are on a mission to defend Moyes no matter what and I've lost respect for their opinion because they can't admit the obvious.

2. 'sufficient' for what? To at least win something, absolutely. Another recent post on TW says that Everton are the 7th biggest spenders in the league, which sounds about right, I believe someone like Mourinho would have achieved much more in the same situation. And this is the pint I'm trying to make, Moyes isn't the alpha and omega of managers, he's had his chance, we can do better because I've had enough of this stagnation.
Dave Wilson
83   Posted 15/06/2011 at 15:22:12

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Tommy

What is it with you ? do you have to make everything up ? Let me point you in the direction of post 59. I state quite clearly I wont compare Wenger to Moyes as its like comparing apples to Oranges . . which bit dont you get ?

YOU were the only one who made the comparison, I merely dismissed your laughable claims that their transfer dealings were comparable. Try not to confuse my refuting those claims with me defending Moyes or comparing them as managers, because as I say, I DONT BELIEVE COMPARISONS CAN BE MADE. no matter how hard you try.

I`m more interested in attacking Kenwright than defending Moyes, because I know whoever our manager is will get the same sort of Budget. You on the other hand are doing a sterling job in his defence.

Take a bow

Tommy Coleman
84   Posted 15/06/2011 at 15:44:02

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Dave W, I knew you'd be the first to reply.

"I`m more interested in attacking Kenwright than defending Moyes"

Are you sure about that, look at how many times you defend Moyes.

Why can't you compare them ? Of course you can. Just look at the money Wenger has had and what he's spent it on then look at what Moyes has had and what he's spent it on. Simple.

How do you rate Moyes against these managers, who is he better than ?

Wenger; Ferguson, Mourinho, Rednapp, André Villas-Boas, Michael Laudrup, Jorge Jesus.

I'm not saying Moyes is worst than all these managers I just want to compare your opinion to mine because I think you are completely biased towards Moyes.
James Boden
85   Posted 15/06/2011 at 16:11:58

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Dave Wilson if you aren't interested in Utd then tell me why in your post number 22 did you feel the need to criticise Ferguson's management skills?
And yes I do remember Leeds winning at Old Trafford but I also remember Reading and Oldham at Goodison and Brentford and Shrewsbury away all of which have occured in the space of 9 years during which David Moyes has been manager of Everton Football Club so hardly one off.

However I do agree with you that the current problem of transfer budget would exist no matter whom is manager so long as Kenwright is at the helm.
Tommy Coleman
86   Posted 15/06/2011 at 16:22:37

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James Boden - And then he'll say how can Everton compete with Utd etc without money. He wants it both ways.

I just happened to be looking at the TW post after the Reading FA Cup defeat, there were 200 posts, all of which were critical of the team and Moyes, even Richard Dodd said he was disapointed (although annoyingly stil tried to brighten things up) but there was one lone voice out there, all by itself in the wilderness trying to defend Moyes, and even defending the critisism of the upbeat Dodd, that voice belonged to DAVE WILSON, ha ha. It completely shows his mission statement, "Moyes can do no wrong".

To me, Dave Wilson is to Moyes as Richard Dodd is to Kenwright. I have no respect for their opinions on either of them..
David Mathieson
87   Posted 15/06/2011 at 16:15:31

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Dave 74#
Firstly ?Keown played more than a bit part in the side you speak about? He Never, he was 38 and it was his last season for Arsenal, he made 15 appearances out of a possible 60 odd; with only ten or so coming in the league; is that not a bit part role? John Terry made 45 appearances this season.

?I think you`ll find MOST of Wengers success was with a defence he inherited,?
That is not true in my opinion and the facts are his invincible team was his own, unlike Moyes ie 2004/2005 4th place was mostly Smith signings. Without a doubt the three best players we have had under Moyes were all there before he came to the club: Rooney, Gravesen & Carsley.

??I think you`ll also find that Wenger has never had to sell a player in order for the club to survive?? Moyes has not had to sell to keep the club afloat utter crap; his spending overall is in the black he has had all the Money from outgoing transfers and more fact. I believe on average to the tune of + 3 million a season is Moyes? net spend.

?if you are happy to compare Graversen and Carsley with Cole and Berkamp thats fine by me.?
I didn?t: just said Moyes inherited good players and they are better than what Smith inherited, but, now that you mention it I will compare Berkamp with Rooney, Rooney hands down far better player.

??why Wenger hasnt won a thing since Denis the menace called it a day?.?
He has come close Champions league finals etc, in my opinion, it is only a matter of time before he wins some more trophies; worth noting over the last three seasons Arsenal have a negative net spend to the tune of 20 to 30 million!
O and I believe Vieira was a Wenger signing and so was there all-time top scorer Henry.
Andy Crooks
88   Posted 15/06/2011 at 17:58:21

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Dave, you are a skilled and clever debator; very skilled, actually. You leave no trail of over-praising Moyes. I have been quoted by Brendan O'Doherty as having "utter contempt" for David Moyes. No doubt I made the comment but I am embarassed enough now to withdraw it unreservedly.

Non posting readers of this site probably get a sense of poster's views and I believe that you are probably seen as strongly pro-Moyes (fair enough). I can't see how you have criticised Moyes more than Tommy and Trevor put together. When have you done this?

Some of your arguments have certainly made me reconsider my views but you seem unable to recognise the frustration of others. Your frustration is, rightly, with Kenwright. Others, accepting than Kenwright is here to stay, think the only way forward is a change of coach.

James Frame, the only encouragement I have ever received from the editor of this site has been grammatical.

Ian Tunstead
89   Posted 15/06/2011 at 18:14:58

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So Tommy, you believe that if Wenger or Mourinho had taken over Everton 9 years ago that Everton would be winning League titles?

Also lets say you get your wish and Moyes is moved on, who is this great manager out there that would take Everton on to success with the kind of money Everton have to spend? That is the real question that needs answering.
Andy Crooks
90   Posted 15/06/2011 at 18:53:18

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Ian, it's been a long time coming in this thread but, fair play to you, you've done it. Critics of Moyes must come up with an alternative... Why? Who knows who could do a better job?There is only one way to find out. Fear of the unknown is understandable but maybe it's time to confront the fear.
Roman Sidey
91   Posted 15/06/2011 at 18:35:35

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Ian!!! What the fuck?! You see what you want to see to try to attack people with a different opinion to you. Tommy said the likes of Mourinho, with the same resources as Moyes, would have done better, not win League titles.

Dave Wilson, you're copping a pasting at the moment, so I was going to leave you alone, but you were bordering on directly offensive towards me earlier, so here goes.

You are not a good debator on this topic because you are completely closed off to the idea that there are other sides to the story. You challenged me to find where ANYONE has said that Moyes is the best pound for pound manager in England. The amount you're on this site, you know as well as I do that people say it regularly. You also challenged me to find any report that Moyes was holding the club to ransom over his contract. Mate, it was 3 years ago, and web pages don't always stay up. It's also one of the first skills you learn in reading news articles that sometimes you have to connect dots yourself. If a report is saying that Moyes still hasn't come to an agreement with the club over a new contract, and he finally signs for an astronomical amount, what other conclusion do you draw? Or do you need everything spelled out for you before you believe it?

Seriously, jumping on here and telling people that they're making things up when it's their opinion or understanding of a situation is a bit rich when you're doing the same thing when comparing Moyes to Wenger - which by the way is actually more akin to comparing apples to apples, as they are in the same profession in the same league.
Roman Sidey
92   Posted 15/06/2011 at 19:01:23

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Forgot to add, the only argument pro-Moyes people EVER come up with is the financial issue. Not trying to lump all the Moyes critics in the same basket, but those of us who aren't happy with him seem a bit more able to come up with more football centred arguments.

Just sayin.
Dave Wilson
93   Posted 15/06/2011 at 18:05:21

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Tommy

In the past week on these very pages I have said if Moyes chooses to go, fuck him, it will be his loss. On these pages I have criticised him for working for radio and TV when he should be concentrating on us. Also on these pages I have hammered him for "not starting work until January"

Roll back up this thread and you will also see I have stated Kenwright should have sent him packing when he stalled over contract.

so dont come out with that crap about me thinking he can do no wrong.

I make no secret of the fact that I support the current Everton manager, Just as I supported the last one and if you read a post of mine last week you`ll know I will be supporting the next one whoever it may be. You see I grasp the fact that whoever our manager is he will not be given as much to spend as the managerswe want him to compete with and will therefore be handicapped.

I will continue to back Moyes - to the hilt - and make no excuses for it, I will be more than happy to accept criticism of him and if true and will criticise him myself. . . .but if you think I`m going to go along with some of the made up shit I`m reading on this thread you`re even more out of touch with the average Evertonian than even I thought you were.

When you are not making ridiculous comparisons to what the Arsenal board, has, can and do make available to their manager and the pittance available to ours, you are calling good and loyal Evertonians childish names, when you are not doing that you are telling us how satisfied you are with the funds made available. . . so why you feel I should be remotely interested in what you think of my opinion is beyond me.

Talking of childish name calling. I`m trying to remember the name people use on here when talking about blues who readily to accept Kenrights contribution . . Oh thats it. They call them apologists.

So Tommy, were both suitably labeled now, I`ll be the guy who rabidly supports and defends whichever poor twat has to manage for this board . . and you can be the apologist
Trevor Mackie
94   Posted 15/06/2011 at 19:25:47

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Dave Wilson

You need to stop digging, you're all over the place.

This is a direct lift from your latest missive @ 93.

"so dont come out with that crap about me thinking he can do no wrong." (re Moyes)

"I will continue to back Moyes - to the hilt - and make no excuses for it, "

You are irrational, have a cuppa and a fig roll.
Dave Wilson
95   Posted 15/06/2011 at 19:14:24

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Roman

Sorry mate the only people I`m "copping a pasting from" are the people who make up this stuff.

Andy #op : I dont think Moyes can deal with big name players - who says ? on what grounds can anybody claim that ?

Tommy #21 ; Moyes has spent 150m (later withdrawn when challenged)

Daniel#26 : Moyes has had this squad for over five years - so when did Fella, Johnny, Seamus, Distin, Bily and and Magggie get here ?

Tommy # 28 ; "I hold my hands up 150m was a guess" - nuff said

Roman #80 plenty of people come on here and claim Moyes is the pound for pound the best manager in England / Europe - so why cant you find one ?

Look at these comments Roman, they are chosen at random, so no offence intended, but if you can tell me hand on heart that these claims are merely opinion and not designed to attack the manager. . . I will come back and apologise to every person I have doubted on the entire thread on this thread.

My word on that
Dave Wilson
96   Posted 15/06/2011 at 19:51:17

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Trevor# so backing him to the hilt means you cant criticise him ? . . .dear me
And for that reason I`m out !


. . unless Roman insist that I should apologise
Jamie Tulacz
97   Posted 15/06/2011 at 19:44:39

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Dave, couldn't agree with you more on this. A few points:

1) The reason why people come up with the money argument all the time is because it is the main factor in today's Premier League. Have a look at the table, teams with lots of money at the top, teams without money at the bottom.

2) You're comparing Moyes with people like Wenger, Ferguson and Mourinho, 3 of the best managers to grace the English game over the last 20 years. Not a lot of people are going to live up to those standards.

3) No one's saying Moyes is perfect, he has his problems with defensive mindset and at the start of the season. But every manager has their faults, name me one manager who doesn't have their faults, and who doesn't make bad signings.

But he has turned us round from perennial relegation strugglers to challenging the top 6/7 with very little funds. Top 6/7 not ideal, but I don't think we can expect much more given that the big clubs have more money and can buy better players.

4) As Dave says anyone is going to struggle with the resources we have. Having more money simply means you can buy better players and can afford to make mistakes. When you have very little to spend you can't afford to make mistakes. Yes Moyes has bought some expensive players, but they've been funded on the back of selling big name players.

5) I'd challenge anyone to do much better with the resources we have. Yes we might finish a couple of places higher, but we're never going to win the league with our current financial problems- we can't compete for the best players.

6) The board is the problem and financial mismanagement going back about 20 years. Sack the board!
Tommy Coleman
98   Posted 15/06/2011 at 19:43:01

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Ian - in short, yes i believe that Wenger and Mourinho would have built Prem Champs contenders. Especially Mourinho, he won the Champs League with Porto, a side that cost a lot less than what Moyes has spent on the current Everton team. The treble with Inter was a miracle, do you think Moyesc could have done that ?
As a replacment, like Andy said, who knows unless we try, what i do know is that Moyes has hit a ceiling over the last few years and we will now start to slip downwards.

Dave W - I dont get these references to me supporting Kenwright, its another thing youve made up, got into your mind, and are refusing to let go. Every post i have ever posted about Kenwright have been nothing but critisism, he is utterly useless, i dislike him more than Moyes andv would rather see him go first if i had the choice. I cant be more damning than that. Because im saying Moyes has had money doesnt mean i want to marry Kenwright. If you say you are happy with the job Moyes has that means Kenwright did well to hire him, which in turn means you also want to marry Kenwright ! Its a silly argument youre trying to make.
Youre proving Roman's point.
Trevor Mackie
99   Posted 15/06/2011 at 20:04:01

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Dave @ 96

You've done it again! Marvellous stuff.

Please don't go off injured - there's a hat-trick in the offing.
Andy Crooks
100   Posted 15/06/2011 at 20:04:49

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Dave, my article is full of"I believe", "in my view" "he is a good manager BUT TO ME will never be a great one". Of course it's opinion. You disagree, that's your opinion. That's why we put up articles. Why don't you get your views together and write another one?
David Thomas
101   Posted 15/06/2011 at 21:06:43

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Dave Wilson,

Your wasting your time mate. I think some evertonians actually think that if we get rid of Moyes, somehow out of nowhere a faultless manager will join the club who never makes any bad subs and gets us playing Barca type football and competing for the champions league places and the championship on a regular basis when the clubs around us are spending millions of pound each summer and we are bringing in free transfers and loans.

Lets hope this mythical manager shows his face soon, because i for one would love him to take over at everton.


Dave Wilson
102   Posted 15/06/2011 at 21:04:41

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Fair enough Andy if you think there was grounds for you to make such a claim, who am I to argue ? and if you tell me you believe the other posts I mentioned in post #95 were merely opinion rather than Moyes bashing I will accept your word for it. I`m a cynical old fucker with a deep mistrust of peoples motives and I will stay the fuck out of Moyes debates in future. Apologies to those I suspected of making stuff up
Trevor Mackie
103   Posted 15/06/2011 at 21:40:06

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David Thomas @ 101

Well said, that's what every fan wants.....well balanced.......like having a chip on both shoulders.

Get a grip man, stop exaggerating the opinion of others - Wilson's just dug himself a massive hole accusing others of exactly that, bloody martyr.
Dave Wilson
104   Posted 15/06/2011 at 21:39:23

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Tommy

I`m out of Moyes threads now so you can come up with all the shite you want, you wont be challenged by me.

But you have repeatedly cliamed Kenwright has sufficiently backed his manager and in post #21 you even tried to exaggerate his spending up to 150m.

Sorry lad, I didnt make any of that up, scroll back and check.

You have the temerity to drag Richard Dodd into the argument, but never have I seen Doddy lie about Kenwrights contribution in order to make him look better.

Protest all you want lad, but its up there
Dave Wilson
105   Posted 15/06/2011 at 21:59:40

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Trevor

I dont attack individuals, I prefer to attack their points, however despite you repeated visits to this thred you still dont seem to have one.

No Martyr here lad. just somebody vowing to stick to threads that dont concern Moyes. I`ve more than done my share on those

You have a good evening
Trevor Mackie
106   Posted 15/06/2011 at 22:11:32

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Dave Wilson

You don't have an opinion, you blow with the wind and when you're exposed you go somewhere else - in this case Kenwright, safer ground - but using it to cover your rear about Moyes saying:

"come up with all the shite you want,"

fools no-one but yourself.

The point is people like me who believe in accountability have every right to air criticism of Moyes or whoever else is involved without their views being distorted, misrepresented, exaggerated or called "shite".

That clear enough for you sonny boy.

Ian Tunstead
107   Posted 16/06/2011 at 01:15:55

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Could someone please tell me why the "If Moyes had millions" article has been closed?
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
108   Posted 16/06/2011 at 10:02:26

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Lyndon perhaps felt it had run its course, Ian, but here ya go: I've reopened it for you.
Daniel A Johnson
109   Posted 16/06/2011 at 13:48:05

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I dont trust Moyes with £150 million because quite simply after having near enough the same squad for nearly 5 yrs he cant even get the best out of that.

Or even manage to start a season.

Hes a safe pair of hands nothing more nothing less.

If he was so shit hot then why aren't Chelsea or Villa making big money moves on him.

Dave Wilson
110   Posted 16/06/2011 at 14:17:49

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Trevor Mackie

I dont think anyone has distorted anyones comments, when Tommy# was challenged, he simply withdrew his claim of 150m and lowered it.
Roman couldnt find a single post to justify his accusations against the claim that "plenty"of people say Moyes is the best in Europe.
And Daniel has just changed his story to having "near enough" the same squad - maybe he thinks we dont know how many players have come in in the last five years.

You see I dont have to "distort" or "exaggaerate" these points already were

I have not been exposed, nor do I seek safer ground, I have debated and taking a whooping from some very skilled debaters over 18 months, but I didnt shirk, I`ve done my bit, said all I have to say on the subject of Moyes.

You have criticised other people in each of 5 your posts, without actually broaching the points made in the OP

Still, you will more than likely get your way where people will not want to debate Moyes and points like those I have mentioned will go unchallenged. its a pity, but its becoming pointless, one side of the house merely says what it wants and when challenge they will often resort to childish name calling. "Apologist" " Moyes nut huggers" " Moyse worshippers" are but a few of the insults these "superior Evertonins will level at anyone, who doesnt agree with them. not sure if thats an attempt to shout people down, but I know it will kill debate.
Unlike the people above, I will be happy to point you in the direction of these post- because they are numerous and DO exist.

Strangely enough I have never heard people like T Williams, D Thomas, or I Tunstead resort to childish name calling ? . . . why do you suppose that is ?

Phil Bellis
111   Posted 16/06/2011 at 17:45:47

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Dave
As you have stated, above, that you dont attack individuals, but prefer to attack their points, I feel fairly safe in raising my backside above the parapet...
my point is that I think David Moyes has been in charge of the first team playing for Everton Football Club for 9 years and, during that time, said team have been responsible for some of the all-time lows in terms of results and performances in Everton's history (and I remember the pre-Moyes 10-4)
I haven't time to delineate and exemplify all proofs to my holding this point of view but will, if required, request the services of the good people at www.couldntbearsed.com
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
112   Posted 16/06/2011 at 18:12:41

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As soon as the war of words opened up between Trevor and Dave, I very much thought it had run it's course, yes.
Andy Crooks
113   Posted 16/06/2011 at 18:23:22

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Dave, why should you withdraw from the debate? If you hadn't made your points, this thread would have been dead. Why don't you write an article calrifying your views? You have some very pertinent points to make regarding the necessity of Moyes being here as long as Kenwright is. Deciding to no longer participate on this issue is unfair to those who agree with your views.
Brendan O'Doherty
114   Posted 16/06/2011 at 19:50:29

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Wao! Fantastic read! Nearly ran out of popcorn I was enjoying it so much. Well done to all concerned.



Roman #91 "If a report is saying that Moyes still hasn't come to an agreement with the club over a new contract, and he finally signs for an astronomical amount, what other conclusion do you draw?"

At the risk of repeating this point ad infinitum, the delay over DM signing that contract was due to the legal position should new owners take over; the monetary part of the contract had already been agreed well beforehand. Therefore you DID jump to conclusions in saying that he held the club to ransom.

If you think that DM is getting paid to much that's fine, but stop perpetrating the myth that he was stalling on signing due to wanting more dough, and then using that as stick with which to beat him by blaming our slow start to that season on it.




Ian Tunstead
115   Posted 16/06/2011 at 19:51:40

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Thank you Michael.

Andy
?Critics of Moyes must come up with an alternative... Why??
Why you say! Surely you must recognise that it is a hugely important question? Haven?t you heard the saying look before you leap?

Ok Andy let?s throw caution to the wind and go out all guns blazing, lets sack Moyes and we can all pray and hope that whoever comes in is the new Mourinho, after all there is a Mourinho around every corner willing to work for teams with no money to spend. Lets ignore the lessons from the past regarding the flavour of the month managers mentioned on here on numerous occasions who all seem the get sacked or relegated with other teams usually less than a year later.

Roman,
You make very little sense,
?You see what you want to see to try to attack people with a different opinion to you? huh? what? Are people attacking my opinions as well because they see what they want to see and have a different opinion to me? I hope that makes more sense to you as it does to me.

Also, what would be the point of bringing in Mourinho if he wasn?t going to win titles? Then again I suppose it would be progression if he got us to finish 5th instead of 7th.

Tommy,
If Wenger has struggled to win anything in 6 years with Arsenal then what makes you think he could do it with Everton? As I say the game has changed, it has been ruined by Billionaires who are more interested in the money side of things than the football.

Finally so what if Mourinho might be a better manager than Moyes, but really i dont see what this has to do with anything. How is that a criticism of Moyes? As I said to Andy the chances of finding a manager in the same bracket as Mourinho is as likely as Moyes winning the league with Everton.

What I believe to be more likely is that Moyes would be replaced by one of the usual managers mentioned like McLeish, Di Matteo, Holloway or some other manager who has recently been sacked or relegated.

Stephen Kenny
116   Posted 16/06/2011 at 20:37:59

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Ian,

One thing that's clear over 9 years but especially these last two is that we are not going to win anything with Moyes in charge. One meek cup final a decade says a lot.

By reaching the Europa Final I consider Fulham to have achieved more than us in the same period.

While a change may frighten some it would need a very, very poor manager to get us relegated even with selling a few of our better players.

Maybe a change of philosophy, outlook or just demeanour would make a positive difference and at least see us play a better brand of football.

Wiining things does not just mean the Premier league, there are cups to be played for and I don't see how even the most ardent Moyes supporter can justify his performance in cups?
David Thomas
117   Posted 16/06/2011 at 20:45:45

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Trevor Mackie,

As you obviously think Moyes should not be in charge anymore, i was going to ask who you think should come in. However, i know that i would get a lot of stick from certain parties if i ask that question.

What i will ask is what are you expecting from an everton manager to achieve taking into consideration the finacial restraints they would be working under compared to those of their rivals? Would you be calling for any everton's managers head unless they are competing for the title each year and more or less guaranteed a place in the champions league each year?

If this is what you are expecting then i'm afraid whoever we may bring in is going to leave you downbeat because in my opinion i don't think there is a manager out there who is capable of matching your requirements the way our finances are at present.

If this is not what you would expect, what is your requirement?







David Thomas
118   Posted 16/06/2011 at 21:11:38

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"By reaching the Europa Final I consider Fulham to have achieved more than us in the same period."

Now comments like this for me just make this whole debate a joke.

In the time that Moyes has been at Everton, Fulham have only ever finished above us in the league once in nine sasons, they have also won nothing. Not only that but they get to a cup final and lose and it is a sign of achievement yet everton get to a final and lose and it is used as an indication that everton will never win a trophy under Moyes.
Stephen Kenny
119   Posted 16/06/2011 at 22:06:23

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David, In relative terms a European final is greater than an FA cup final. Neither of us have won fuck all so that's my reasoning.

No trophies for being best of the rest or finishing tenth.
David Thomas
120   Posted 16/06/2011 at 22:11:18

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Stephen,

Fair enough that's your opinion.

However, in my opinion i would not swap Fulham's recored since the 2002-03 season with ours in the slightest.
Roman Sidey
121   Posted 16/06/2011 at 22:13:52

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Ian, I said you read what you want to read in regard to the fact that you put another poster on the spot for saying that Mourinho and Wenger would do better than Moyes with the same squad etc, because you took that as "would win titles".

Maybe one or the other would have won the title, or won at least a cup of some discription.

Brendan, I'm from Australia, so forgive me if the reports I got about Moyes stalling didn't have the whole story. However, with a minor background in journalism, as well as knowing you need to connect the dots to form some conclusions, you also have to choose what to believe and what is untrue. The truth is, even if Moyes came out and said, "I stalled because of this or that reason," we still wouldn't definitively know the truth.

Dave, it's not that I couldn't find a post that said Moyes was "pound for pound the best manager", but that I told you it's been said so many times that I have no need to waste time going and finding one.

Let me put in words what a lot of people like me could probably relate to, and the people who so strongly oppose our point of view may use to understand why we want Moyes gone.

The first four or five years of his tenure, I was a fan. Here was a manager who was getting us wins (scrappy 1-0s at the time but who cares when you've got a mountain to climb), getting the odd good result against the shite, and bringing in players that gelled exceptionally well. It seemed like he had a five year plan that would see us enter the top four, probably at the expense of our cross town rivals.

After the fifth year though, things started to get murky, and slow starts to the season were common. Moyes was beginning to rely heavily on his proven favourites no matter what. The five year plan hadn't come off, and it seems like now it is a 'one season at a time' plan.

Until the first quarter of the season just gone, I still wasn't sure I wanted him gone. When we played WBA at home I made my decision, and when he sat and sulked at Stoke around the same time as making statements like, "We have to keep doing what we're doing and hope it works," and "Hibbo and Ossie have jobs for life as long as I'm here," I decided to that not only was he not good for us, but he's just not that good a manager.

I know you guys like him, and must have your reasons. The above is my reason for not liking him.

Attack that.
Ian Tunstead
122   Posted 16/06/2011 at 23:45:16

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Stephen
Its been quite a meek 10 years for most managers who finish outside the top 4, you might get the odd Birmingham or Portsmouth winning a cup but generally it will be Man Utd, Chlesea, Arsenal or Liverpool winning the trophies. The mangers of other teams that have won something will only win one major trophy, which says to me it?s more about the luck of the draw.

Harry Redknapp is the only exception I can think of but he had a reasonable amount of money to spend at Portsmouth and Spurs. The sad truth is we are unlikely to win anything who ever is in charge unless the manager is given the funds that can match Chelsea, Man Utd, Man City, and Liverpool.

I would also argue that the FA cup is more difficult to win than the Europa Cup because the FA Cup has CL teams in it like Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal in it.
Andy Crooks
123   Posted 17/06/2011 at 00:19:23

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Ian,
Paul Lambert, Gus Poyet or Glenn Hoddle.
David.
what would I expect from them? On the same budget as David Moyes I would expect the following:
A proper summer preparation. America doesn't work yet we are going again. Not going 4-5-1 against Wolves and Wigan etc. Not taking the lead and holding on to what we've got. Dropping players who consistantly under-perform. Giving a run in the side to expensive buys in their proper position. Putting at least a little pressure on the chairman by at the very least staying silent rather than praising him. Making pertinent and timely substitutions. That'll do.
Ian Tunstead
124   Posted 17/06/2011 at 00:15:23

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I apologise Roman

But I think you are reading what you want to read a little too.

I said ?So Tommy, you believe that if Wenger or Mourinho had taken over Everton 9 years ago that Everton would be winning League titles??

How I actually meant to put it and should have put its was;?

So Tommy, DO you believe that if Wenger or Mourinho had taken over Everton 9 years ago that Everton would be winning League titles?

But to be fair, when he says ?Ok Ian, Moyes has had a "7th place team" for a few years now, did you think he will go on to reach the successes of Wenger ??

By success it is fair to say he was talking about titles, as he states here;

?Wenger took over a team who were finishing around 7th and built a superb football team that won leagues and cups. Moyes will never achieve what Wenger has, ever.?
James Flynn
125   Posted 17/06/2011 at 00:46:27

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Moyes gets 150 million, the main complaint for TWers will be, "Whose all these johnny-come-lately EFC fans?".

Because lots of silverware will be raised continuously if Moyes is provided the funding of other clubs.

Look where he's got us without funding.
Roman Sidey
126   Posted 17/06/2011 at 02:14:57

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Fair enough Ian. The way you explained what you meant does seem a fairer comment. I don't think anyone would expect us to have won the league in the last 9 years, but to not even win a cup (that's 18 domestic cups for no success) or make it further in Europe...

What I didn't say in my big post is that I honestly believe, even though I WAS a Moyes supporter at the time, that after the 05-06 season, he should have been sacked.
Eric Myles
127   Posted 17/06/2011 at 02:04:55

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David #61, turnover means nothing if you're spending more money than you have coming in, the RS spending is funded by debt which is also much bigger than ours.
Eric Myles
128   Posted 17/06/2011 at 02:28:54

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James #77, if it was Moyes fault that we got knocked out of the FA Cup by Reading and Brentford then who's fault was it that we beat the RS and United and got to the FA Cup final?
Roman Sidey
129   Posted 17/06/2011 at 02:35:22

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Eric, just to be a pric, and add a bit of spice to that one.

We beat Liverpool thanks to van der Meyde and Gosling.

We beat United because SAF fucked up and played a weaker side than he had available.
Eric Myles
130   Posted 17/06/2011 at 02:33:34

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David #120, but I'd swap their cairman for ours (so long as he didn't bring his Michael Jackson statue with him)
Eric Myles
131   Posted 17/06/2011 at 02:46:35

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Roman, I guess we should have kept van der Man and the baby goose then.

And I seem to remember against the RS and United we had an understrength side with 5 teenagers in the side or on the bench (Gosling being one of them) due to injuries to key players (which is why vdM got a game).
Roman Sidey
132   Posted 17/06/2011 at 03:26:30

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Haha. Yeah mate. I don't fully believe what I said. I was just throwing it in there for, like I said, a bit of spice and to be a pric. I do wish we still had Gosling though and that vdM had have worked out better.
Mike Gaynes
133   Posted 17/06/2011 at 05:53:15

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Andy, congratulations. A brief post that gets 132 comments (mine doesn't count) is a stunning achievement. I don't know if there's a record for most responses, or how close you're getting to it, but you may just have triggered the best debate of all time on this board.
David Thomas
134   Posted 17/06/2011 at 09:11:28

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"After the fifth year though, things started to get murky"

After his first 5 full seasons in the next two seasons we finished 5th twice in a row. With only the Sky top 4 finishing above us.

"What I didn't say in my big post is that I honestly believe, even though I WAS a Moyes supporter at the time, that after the 05-06 season, he should have been sacked." We went on to finish 6, 5 & 5 in the next 3 seasons our highest consecutive run of placings in his time.
"Hibbo and Ossie have jobs for life as long as I'm here," I would be amazed if anyone who went to watch everton in the second half of last season for example didnt tell you that Ossie was one of if not our best player.

Andy,

Thanks for the reply. As we all know its all about were you finish the season. With this in mind i would ask yourself or Trevor - What position would you expect us to be finishing in to prevent you wanting a new manager in? Because as i said earlier if you are expecting a guaranteed place in the champions league etc i think you will be disappointed whoever is in charge gieb the current financial capabilities of us and the teams around us.
Andy Crooks
135   Posted 17/06/2011 at 10:50:48

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David, I believe that a better start last season could have taken us very close to the champions league. No one expects miracles from David Moyes and some mates believe that by just keeping us where he has he's already achieving them. I just feel that last season there was no outstanding team in the premier league. Others are now strengthening and we might have missed the boat.
Colin Southern
136   Posted 17/06/2011 at 11:19:06

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Dave, I got to hand it to you ? I've never read anyone on here so comprehensively demolish all arguments from the guys who want to get rid of Moyes or say we should be challenging the top teams with a budget of 0 pence!

Whoever said Moyes has had £120 million to spend ? talk about taking things out of context. Thats over 9 seasons and he's had to sell to raise that money. I'd like to know which other manager has had to do that.

Yes, he has his weaknesses... and don't we all... but I think his strengths far outweigh them all.
Dave Wilson
137   Posted 17/06/2011 at 10:11:26

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Roman.

I didnt mean to embarrass or offend you, I was simply trying to expose a myth.

You wont find plenty of posts where people claim Moyes is the best pound for pound manager in Europe becuase it doesnt exist, at least if it does it`ll at very best a one off.

Some of the best debates on here in the past have been about Davey Moyes.You only have to look at some of threads after we have been beaten to recognise that.

The TW editor makes no secret of the fact that he is not a fan of David Moyes`s and if he`s angry after a defeat or a poor performance his after match reports are terrific entertaiment. He will lambast Moyes, exaggerating his flaws to the absolute max and Toffeweb will light up as dozens, sometimes over a hundred will want their say.

The trouble is, not many people will nail Kenrick, thats because nearly everything he says - no matter how unfair or exaggerated it appears to Moyes supporters - will carry some truth in it.
As you know, Moyes and his supporters generally get battered on Saturday nights because the editor is far from being alone with his abilty to exaggerate without ever straying too far from the truth.

The Myth I refer to is something which in my opinion has developed on threads in which the less artful debator has taken part, these guys understand exaggeration can be a powerful way to empahsise a point, but dont recognise that without that element of truth. their posts merely come across as MUS - made up shit - Of course when they are challenged, they dont have the skills to counter, so they will accuse people who challenge their points of being "Moyes worshippers" etc etc . . Anyone who disagrees with their "MUS" has to think Moyes is the best manager the world has ever known . . .Thus creating the perception that there is an absolute deluge of post proclaiming Moyes to be a God.

The fact that I am posting to a fellow blue half way around the world, instead of compiling the report my boss is screaming for will tell you I`m an addict, what we in this country call an Anorak, a complete saddo, I go to all the games, and 99% of my friends are Evertonians. . .So trust me, if these mythical people, the "Apologist" the "Worshippers" the people who think "Moyes can do no wrong" actually existed I would know about them.

Dont waste your time looking for that post mate, if it ever existed one of the people who created this myth would have been Jumping up and down drawing everybodys attention to it. They havent, They cant.

Nobody is blind to Moyes faults Roman , nobody worships him . .and as far as I know there is not a waiting list to hug his nuts
Jon Hughes
138   Posted 17/06/2011 at 12:39:16

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If Moyes had millions...I think that he would buy about 5 or 6 really good defenders to improve our back-line, and maybe also 1 forward type player who could drop back into midfield should the need arise. If Moyes had millions really himself, and if he is a true lover of Everton, perhaps he could buy some shares off BB and really improve things!
James Frame
139   Posted 17/06/2011 at 12:52:23

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You have just made the best point in this thread, Dave Wilson. The supporters of David Moyes appear more articulate and more informed than the people who do not like him. That is just a thought.
Stephen Kenny
140   Posted 17/06/2011 at 13:59:24

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Ian,

If your happy to go with luck of the draw fair play, I'd rather someone at the club tried to make us more likely to win things.

Most of the big sides play weakened teams in the early rounds of the FA Cup and all the way through to the finalin the League Cup.

We usually get tonked by luminaries such as Oldham, Brentford, Reading, Shrewsbury etc. Moyes performance in cups we had a chance of winning has been dire IMO.

The Europa League/UEFA Cup Is IMO more difficult to win as you are going all over Europe, playing Thursday/Sunday and it's over two legs so the draw is less favourable, It also has a load of Champions League sides in it, albeit less quality ones. I think wev'e had a genuine chance of winning this also a few years ago. In typical Moyes style wqe bottled a game that really mattered, as we have done time and again.

The argument I'm trying to make is this, if we haven't won anything in the past 10 years why are going to start winning things now?
Brian Waring
141   Posted 17/06/2011 at 15:43:36

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James, the more articulate and more informed fans you talk about, a lot of them were the ones telling us that Kirkby was a good idea, when the less articulate of us, could see it for what it was, a complete sham, as proven by it being kicked out.
Brian Waring
142   Posted 17/06/2011 at 15:47:14

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Also, the point I was making, James, is because they are more articulate and well informed, doesn't mean that they are always right.
Trevor Mackie
143   Posted 17/06/2011 at 16:30:05

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When did "long and tiresome" equal "articulate and well informed?"

Tony J Williams
144   Posted 17/06/2011 at 16:59:41

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Stephen, there is an element of luck with the draw, especially with Portsmouth (2008 semi finals, they were the only Premiership side in it)

Ipswich, Plymouth, Preston, Man U, West Brom, Cardiff. One premiership team played in the 6 games.
Phil Bellis
145   Posted 17/06/2011 at 17:00:59

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I notice my point re "said team have been responsible for some of the all-time lows in terms of results and performances in Everton's history" has sneaked under the radar of the articulate and well informed...

And to add to Andy's reply to the request for requirements, I would add:

? Stop hanging on for the draw from minute 0 at Old Trafford;
? When 1 up at home, go for 2;
? Play two forwards when the opposition merits;
? Leave a man on the half-way line when defending a corner;
? Tell the man nearest the ball at a throw-in that's it's OK to take it yourself, quickly, and throw it to an unmarked team-mate, even one standing in-field;
? Tell the players to run around a bit to make space for the thrower;
? Now and again, pull off and replace under-performing players who, as some fans believe, are not obeying your calls to "move up", "attack", "shove it up `em" etc.

By the way, I like Moyesy but think he could do better with the players he's assembled, despite the shameful performance of the Board of Directors.
A proper summer preparation. America doesn't work yet we are going again. Not going 4-5-1 against Wolves and Wigan etc. Not taking the lead and holding on to what we've got. Dropping players who consistently under-perform. Giving a run in the side to expensive buys in their proper position. Putting at least a little pressure on the chairman by at the very least staying silent rather than praising him. Making pertinent and timely substitutions. That'll do.

Phil Bellis
146   Posted 17/06/2011 at 17:19:33

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Apologies for the plagiarism Andy; not got the hang of this cut and paste lark
Stephen Kenny
147   Posted 17/06/2011 at 18:00:37

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Tony,

I'd like to think it would even itself out over the course of a decade?

I.e lower league opposition draws. Funnily the only time we've done well in the cup is the time we played all Prem sides. A motivation issue perhaps?
David Thomas
148   Posted 17/06/2011 at 18:15:16

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Phil,

I presume from what you are saying that you would prefer Moyes to be replaced?

Whilst i share your frustrations with regards some of the requests you posted and have said the same thing at the match myself in the past about throw ins and Old Trafford etc, what i would ask is do you think there is a manager out there that we could realistically attract who is going to get us into a position were we can overtake the teams spending vast sums of money each season on a regular basis?

In my opinion Moyes has got us to a position were we are "the best of the rest". Obviously that is not the position i would choose for the club but when clubs like United, City, Chelsea and Lpool are all spending £20 plus million on players on a regular basis and we are bringing in free transfers and loans in my opinion i don't think it is going to matter which manager we bring in they are going to find it extremely difficult to break the monopoly that the clubs with money have. I mean i don't think it is much of a surprise that the two clubs who have moved ahead of us in the last couple of years ie Spurs and City are two clubs that have been able to spend significant amounts of money.
Brian Waring
149   Posted 17/06/2011 at 18:56:48

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David, don't you reckon that a more adventurous manager may have turned a lot of those draws into wins? And a manager who was more attack minded, may have turned those defeats against the teams below us into wins by not being negative?
Roman Sidey
150   Posted 17/06/2011 at 23:11:37

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Dave Wilson, fair craic.

Dave Thomas, if 5th is a good result and what we should be aiming for as a five year plan, fuck it, I'll stop supporting the team.

When I said Moyes should have been sacked at the end of the 05-06 season I meant it. At that point, we hadn't gone on to finish in the magnificent 6, 5, 5. We'd gone from 4th, to 11th, with a bigger, supposedly better squad, and gone out of all the cups early.

Tell me you weren't asking questions of his abilities that season.
Jamie Tulacz
151   Posted 17/06/2011 at 23:51:41

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Roman, in the 6 season before Moyes took over, our league positions were:
1996-97 15th
1997-98 17th
1998-99 14th
1999-2000 13th
2000-01 16th
2001-02 15th

Last 5 seasons with virtually no investment 6th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 7th. We'd all love to finish higher but wouldn't every club. Without investment we just can't compete for the best players and it ain't going to happen. The fact that we're disappointed with 7th this season (me included) says a lot when for the previous 10 years we were lucky to avoid relegation most of the time.

The game is all about money nowadays, sad to say, and it's virtually impossible to compete without it. Yes we can get the one off results against the big teams, but you need big money and a strong squad to compete over the whole season
Colin Southern
152   Posted 18/06/2011 at 00:09:09

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Brian I'm sure there are a whole host of adventurous managers that have done exactly what you've said and they've all ended up back in the championship or sacked.



Andy Crooks
153   Posted 18/06/2011 at 00:39:02

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Jamie , that's an interesting post. However. I'm sure you would agree that the years of improvement coincide with the years of,which for Everton. were years of reasonable investment
Roman Sidey
154   Posted 18/06/2011 at 01:41:42

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Jamie, the point is in those seasons how many managers did we have? More than one.

I didn't specify too many seasons. I said, if you go from 4th to 11th in a season with no preoccupation of any cups, and with a bigger and better squad, your manager has done something very wrong.
Ian Tunstead
155   Posted 18/06/2011 at 10:59:35

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Stephen

"The argument I'm trying to make is this, if we haven't won anything in the past 10 years why are going to start winning things now? "

I dont believe Everton or any team outside the top 5 will win anything in all honesty, unless another billioanire takes over another team. If we are lucky those 5 teams will be drawn agaisnt each other and knock each other out, or play weakend sides in the early stages and be knocked out. But i cant see one of the biggest spending clubs not winning the available trophies.
Roman Sidey
156   Posted 18/06/2011 at 12:32:16

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Fair enough Ian, but it's the supposed big 4/5/6 or however many there are above us at the time that we have proven we can compete against on our day. Look at last season, we lost what, three games to the top six.

The cups have less to do with the clubs' financial situation as the league does, as it's one off performances that count every month or so.

David Thomas
157   Posted 18/06/2011 at 12:29:26

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Roman,

"Dave Thomas, if 5th is a good result and what we should be aiming for as a five year plan, fuck it, I'll stop supporting the team."

In my opinion 5th is a good result considering the different financial restraints on us and the clubs who are usually in the top 4 places. Obviously, 5th is not the position i would want to be in. Of course like every other fan in the world i would want my team to be No 1 every year.

However, do you really believe there is a manager out there who is going to have us competing for the title and cementing our place in the champions league whilst we have a summer transfer fund of £0.00 and the teams we are attemting to compete with are spending £20 / £50 million on players?
Brian 149, Good question. To be honest i don't know, your guess is as good as mine. Maybe we could have picked up more points or maybe if we had gone a bit more attacking like a Blackpool (who a lot of people on this site were praising for their attacking play) we would have been exposed at the back and maybe lost even more points. Who knows?

I for one don't want everton to take the risk of sacking Moyes to find out, obviously yourself and a number of others do.
Eric Myles
158   Posted 19/06/2011 at 03:17:12

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Phil Bellis
159   Posted 19/06/2011 at 12:38:14

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QED, Eric
Toffeeweb equivalent of "they couldn't hit an elephant at this dist........"
Brendan McLaughlin
160   Posted 19/06/2011 at 12:46:47

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Phil #158
Hardly QED, Phil. I think that when Dave makes the arguement on Toffeeweb that you won't find many claims of this type about Moyes, it can reasonably be inferred that he actually means on Toffeeweb itself. So unless I've missed it I don't think Eric's link actually does this?
David Thomas
161   Posted 19/06/2011 at 13:34:23

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Brendan,

I think the most worrying thing about this whole thread is you have had to explain what Dave W was talking about.

Phil,

I'm pretty sure that when Roman states the below, when he says "get on here" he is talking about TW.

"David, plenty of people get on here and quote the "pound for pound he's the best manager in England/Europe" tripe all the time."

Roman Sidey
162   Posted 19/06/2011 at 15:22:51

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Once again, the only rebuttal people have to defend Moyes is the financial issue.

Let's get back to the original post, what if he had millions to spend.

His tactics would still be crap. His substitutions would still be predictable and, in the opinion of many, wrong. And, finally, he'd use a lot of the millions to pump up the contracts of his known favourites who, in all reality, have fallen short of the yard stick year after year.
Amit Vithlani
163   Posted 19/06/2011 at 16:50:15

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Do cut out the shite will you Roman.

Firstly, every manager cuts their cloth accordingly. How do you know how Moyes would or would not behave if he had huge funds to play with?

Furthermore, were we to get the mythical sheikh, there would be serious pressure on the manager, whether Moyes or anyone else, to produce entertainment and results. It happened at Man City and Chelsea.

Lastly the comparison made by Tommy Coleman between David Moyes and Arsene Wenger was so laughable it made me cry.

Moyes inherited a broken down Jalopy,struggling to pass its MOT, and had to sell the scraps from which he put together a Ford Mondeo. It comfortably passes its MOT, is a decent enough drive but not everyones cup of tea and certainly not a car to power down the fast lane.

Wenger inherits a Corvette with engine problems and after some tinkering produces a thoroughbred.

Arsenal had Wright, Bergkamp, Adams, Seaman to name but a few. Wenger added Platt, Pettit and Viera and the team won the double.

The cycle began - from there, with Champions league football - world class players were attracted and the style of play gradually began to began to change. Ask most Arsenal fans and they will tell you that it was only after Adams, Winterburn and Keown retired, and ball playing defenders such Toure, Campbell, Gallas and Cole came through, did the passing style we see today come through.

Finally, it is half baked to just take transfer fees as a means of justifying "finances". The key is wages. Arsenal have had a much bigger wage bill than Everton for the last 15 years.

Not counted in Arsenal's transfer kitty is Sol Campbell, who cost nothing but commanded £100k a week wages in 2002 - that is almost 40% higher than Everton's top earner in 2011.

Fabregas is another - had come through Everton's ranks, there is no doubt that we would have had to sell far sooner than Arsenal are having to, as there is no way we would have been able to pay him anywhere near the wages he earns at Arsenal today.
Trevor Mackie
164   Posted 19/06/2011 at 17:31:21

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Amit

On a scale zero to 10, Wenger is 9 or 10 Moyes is 5 or 6 no matter how many caveats you put in.

You throw in Wenger's signing of Petit and Viera too casually, the man's work in the transfer market is nothing short of genius, these 2 being the start.

His ego's got the better of him trying to play Barca's game in England but other than that he's the most outstanding manager after Clough.

You might find Rioch signed the non - descript Platt.
Dave Wilson
165   Posted 19/06/2011 at 19:46:47

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David/ Brendan Those who understand need no explination. . . Phil. After several failed attempts ya finally made people laff - If at first ya dont succeed . . QED Brother
Dave Wilson
166   Posted 19/06/2011 at 20:05:31

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Andy Crooks :

165 post ? Fair play to you lad

I wish our players were 1/2 as good as your Golfers. Got tomorow off and I have a bottle of Jimmy Beam to keep me company through the night .




Amit Vithlani
167   Posted 19/06/2011 at 20:28:47

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Trevor

You cannot compare Wenger and Moyes.

Financially, Everton 2002-2011 are mid sized club. We rank around 10th in terms of average gates, turnover and wage bill.

Arsenal are second or third and have been for the last 15 years.

Neither you nor anyone can say that Wenger would fare better or worse managing Everton or a club with the same financial clout.

As to the point around Platt, I doff my cap, but it re-enforces the point. Wenger only had to introduce a couple of players and Arsenal became double winners. On Viera I disagree. He was bought by Milan from Bastia and was touted as the new Rijkaard, but found himself frozen out because Serie A in those days had restrictions on the number of foreigners.

Everton were utterly shite when Moyes took over in 2002 so a comparison with Wenger / Arsenal in the mid-90's is difficult to square.
Andy Crooks
168   Posted 19/06/2011 at 21:09:38

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Dave, I don't have sky so I'm sitting here with wine and a few beers waiting for five live's coverage to start, Not quite the same, but better than nothing. Unfortunately I'm working tomorrow but I'll suffer if necesary.
I actually played against Rory's dad Gerry many years ago, a sound bloke. By all accounts Rory is a lovely unassuming bloke. Good luck tto him. By the way , Dave make a mental note notto post here after you've downed your Jim Beam. I believe the editor can recognise most alcohol induced posts and has saved me a few times. No, this current article was written sober, actually! Have a good night.
Phil Bellis
169   Posted 20/06/2011 at 09:24:17

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As long as I made YOU laugh Dave
Enjoy your day off sunshine
Ray Roche
170   Posted 20/06/2011 at 10:00:42

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The worry for me is that if Moyes has little money to spend what the hell is he doing looking (apparently) at Wes Brown for? £3m? Someone fuckers havin' a laff...
Trevor Mackie
171   Posted 20/06/2011 at 11:15:01

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Amit

"You cannot compare Wenger and Moyes."

In full agreement.
Ray Roche
172   Posted 20/06/2011 at 14:27:06

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Trevor, I wonder how Wenger would have fared had he taken over the team that Moyes did, and with as little nett cash as Moyes has had? Believe me, I am a fan of Wenger the manager,not the whingeing, myopic French oaf who throws a fit on the touchline if anyone tackles his precious,cheating charges, and i have a great respect for his type of football and also what HE has done in discovering new, young talent. But,as has been stated on here, he took over a team with a sound nucleus of players. Moyes took over a basket case heading for relegation. And lets be honest,financially,Arsenal are on a different planet to Everton, we can't scrape enough dosh together to lag our pipes, they built the Emirates...
James Frame
173   Posted 20/06/2011 at 15:20:28

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This was an interesting debate that I think the supporters of Mr Moyes have won. I think it is because they are more opnminded and reasonable and not angry. This is just aneutral view .Well done
Brian Waring
174   Posted 20/06/2011 at 16:21:11

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James ( #172 ), are you 12yrs of age? If so, I apologise, but what a silly remark to make " I think the supporters of Mr Moyes have won "
Brian Waring
175   Posted 20/06/2011 at 18:00:08

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Also James, how can it be a ' Neutral view ' When you are one of the Moyes supporters on this thread, and you agree with the pro - Moyes views here?
James Frame
176   Posted 20/06/2011 at 18:51:47

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To quote Phil.QED Brian.You have just most clearly demonstsrated my point. I am not 12 but you have no argument to make. Personnal attack is the weapon of the moyes haters. I try to be neutral as I do say but when faced with a fair argument I am making my point
Dave Wilson
177   Posted 20/06/2011 at 18:48:39

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Brian why take it out on James.

The critcism of Moyes on this thread have been very very weak

Claming the manager has had 30 million quid more than he actually has, or that he has had this squad together for 5 years are the sort of posts that do Moyes more favours than harm

When people like Trevor#170 agrees that you cant compare Moyes to Wenger, dont you wonder why he bothered with his previous post#163 where he was trying to do precisely that ?


Rather than attacking James for simply giving his honest assessment of the thread, why not counter it with something that may make him reconsider ?

Brian Waring
178   Posted 20/06/2011 at 19:17:01

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Why is it a personal attack James? Also, I never had no arguement to make, because I wasn't actually trying to make one. I just thought that your " I think the supporters of Mr Moyes have won " Sounded like something a young lad of school age may say, thats why I thought you may be one of our younger supporters.

Its funny that you go on about personal attack, then go on to call people Moyes haters.


Also James, as I say, how can yours be a neutral view, when you are one of the contributors to the thread backing Moyes?
Brian Waring
179   Posted 20/06/2011 at 19:38:04

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Dave, I wasn't attacking James, I just thought his point about the pro - Moyes supporters winning wasn't the right thing to say, along with his other " The supporters of Moyes appear more articulate and more informed than the people who do not like him " If James can give assesments like that, then why can't I think that his comment was childish?
Brian Waring
180   Posted 20/06/2011 at 19:49:35

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Also Dave, I'm sure you have said before that you hate all the ' Apologist '
etc labeling, but you don't say nothing of James' ' Moyes haters ' remark.
Dave Wilson
181   Posted 20/06/2011 at 19:47:27

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Brian

I didn't think your remark about "less articulate" being able to see Kirkby for the sham it was, as being accurate either.

1) The thread has nothing to do with Kirkby;

2) If you think the guys at KEIOC are inarticulate, you must have slept right through the Kirkby debate.

When you asked James if he was 12 years old, it was obviously a dig, why deny it? At least have the courage of your convictions.

Your posts have been pretty indicative of most of the anti-Moyes posts on this thread, you`ve posted a lot, but you have made very few points... is it any wonder James as a neutral sees things the way he does?

Like I say, Brian:

If you disagree with his assesSment of the thread, get a couple of points up there that`ll make him reconsider.
Brian Waring
182   Posted 20/06/2011 at 20:36:44

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Dave, my remark about ' Less articulate being able to see Kirkby for what it was ' was my assessment, or isen't that allowed for me?

Also, I know the thread wasn't about Kirkby, but are you saying that you have never gone off topic in a thread to make a point?

I haven't onced in this thread slagged Moyes off verbally or had a go at him.
I just made a couple of points saying that if Moyes takes all the plaudits for the good buys ( And there is a fair few ) then shouldn't he he take criticism for the bad ones? Also in response to David, I pointed out that maybe a more adventorous manager may have turned some of those draws into wins, and a more attack - minded manager may have turned those defeats against lower teams into wins by not being negative? Wouldn't the latter be considered as giving him something to think about?

Dave, if I was having a dig at James, I would have got right to the point of it.
For some reason, his " Moyes supporters winning " remark, had me thinking " My dads bigger than your dad " And now knowing he's not 12, makes his remark even worse.






By thw way, thanks for pointing out the other S in assessment.

Trevor Mackie
183   Posted 20/06/2011 at 22:51:12

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Brian Waring

You're wasting your time, I seriously believe the gent has issues.
Roman Sidey
184   Posted 20/06/2011 at 23:06:21

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Love that Michael opene this one up again at #106!!! Am so close to letting this go until people come back on and say things that are as far off the mark as they are claiming our (Moyes opposers) statements are.

Amit, you asked how I know Moyes would act if he had millions. This OP asked that exact question, and, being a forum for members to post on and comment on, I gave my opinion, and you, like many other people who cannot seem to see that Moyes' faults are getting repetitive and costly, reply with direct profanity.

However, to answer your question, I gave my opinion of how he'd handle money by referencing the one summer in his time at Everton when he has brought in wholesale changes (summer '05), and gone from manager of the year and 4th place, to 11th.

As I said earlier, his faults are getting repetitive and costly, as we saw over the winter when we dropped points to teams we really should be beating, even with no net spend, a shitty stadium (apparently), etc etc.
Andy Crooks
185   Posted 21/06/2011 at 00:18:46

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Dave. I dont believe the crticism of David Moyes on this site has been weak. To me. it has been pertinent and appropriate. I think Brian Waring has been fair in his response. You know that I deplore and never use the term" apologist". "Moyes hater" is equally unfair
I do respect your defence of some posters and understand it but you know Moyes's weaknesses and I would genuinely ask you to put up an article giving what you think is a balanced view.
Dave Wilson
186   Posted 21/06/2011 at 10:15:25

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Andy

Some of the most accurate criticism I have heard levelled at David Moyes has been on this site. but I dont believe he or his supporters will be unduly concerned about anything levelled at him on this thread.
Maybe people feel its all been said before, who knows ?

Your article asks "what if he had Millions" The fact is, this board have given him lees than any other manager in the top two flights this past 18 months, in that period they have taken more than 5m in tranfer fees, plan to sell more players and have saved a couple of million by loaning out players.

I believe even those who were Moyes`s strongest critics in the past now recognise a magician would struggle to bring success to our club.

Sure there are a few people who are determined to continue to blame Moyes, but imo they seem to be getting fewer and their criticisms seem to be getting weaker - Maybe thats what prompted James`s comments - As for name calling, I`m past caring, I just feel it really weakens an argument.

Evertonians recognise where our problems lie and until they are addressed Moyes`s situation will become even more of a no lose situation than it was before.
Read the "pound for pound" quotes . they are nearly all from non Evertonians. It seems the less money this board give him, the higher Davey boys stock rises amongst the fans of other clubs - Perverse ? fucken right it is . . but dont you agree it`s happening ?

Whether you or I think he`s any good or not, or if he could make use of a huge war chest or not is becoming immaterial. By denying him any sort of tranfer kitty this board are making him appear virtually bomb proof.

Brian

Your view that it was the inarticulate who saw Kirkby for the sham it was is not one I subscribe to, but of course your entitled to your view, just as others are entitled to disagree
Phil Bellis
187   Posted 21/06/2011 at 11:37:18

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Without attempting to make Dave W chortle and mindful of the limitations Moyesey has had to work with, including the inadequacies of the Board of directors, there are still, I feel, justified criticisms of David Moyes' performance
The footballing times we live in may, in some measure, account for this dichotomy but here are a view points to consider

Jan 2003
Defeated by lowest-placed team ever in FA Cup

May 2005
Equalled heaviest league defeat, 71 years on

Aug 2009
Heaviest home defeat for 51 years and worst opening day result in our history

Oct 2009
"The Lisbon Pussie" - worst ever European defeat

2010
Worst start to a season since 1994
Feb 2011 Bolton
"Today?s performance was as bad as I can remember since I?ve been in charge"

Throw in 3-0 at half-time to Hull, displays against Brentford, Oldham, Reading etc, not to
mention losing twice to Liverpool while having more players on the pitch
Amit Vithlani
188   Posted 21/06/2011 at 11:11:49

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Trevor

#171. Glad you Agree.

Roman

#184. Sorry for using profane langugage, lets substitute "shite" for "claptrap".

This was posed in the OP:

"How would he be rated with money to spend? What if by some miracle this summer he suddenly had unlimited funds? Would we play consistent beautiful football? Would we be in the Champions League in two years? I'm not sure."



and

"At present, he has the admiration of his chairman (he'll never be sacked) The respect of the media , his peers and many, many Evertonians. He has one of the least pressurised jobs in the premier league. With money this could be gone. It takes a certain type. Mark Hughes, widely regarded, was not the type for City. I believe Moyes may well be similar. He's a good manager but, to me, will never be a great one. If we had big money this summer would you trust it to Moyes? "


This compares to your post:





Let's get back to the original post, what if he had millions to spend.

"His tactics would still be crap. His substitutions would still be predictable and, in the opinion of many, wrong. And, finally, he'd use a lot of the millions to pump up the contracts of his known favourites who, in all reality, have fallen short of the yard stick year after year. "

The OP poses a series of thoughtful questions in a balanced manner. You replied, as is ofcourse your right, with what I think is a blinkered rant. The statement about using the millions to pump up contracts of his favourites is nothing but a load of shite, er sorry, claptrap.
Amit Vithlani
189   Posted 21/06/2011 at 11:52:35

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Phil

100% agree that there have been a series of devastating lows.

However, a balanced card would include the exhilaration of qualifying for the Champions League. The sunny day at Wembley when we made the final. 2-0 against Fiortentina - one of the best displays by the blues. The last 20 mins against Man City at home, when we showed money cant buy class. The first 20 mins away against City when Bainesy proved he is the best left back in the country by a mile.


Overall, taking the highs and the lows, the man does not deserve a statue or a stadium named after him.

But he does deserve some respect, however grudging, for the job done in undeniably challenging circumstances.
Phil Bellis
190   Posted 21/06/2011 at 12:12:45

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Amit
Moyesey does have my respect - I've spoken to him on 3 occasions and find him totally honest, aware of the Evertonian mindset and dedicated
And I've had some of the best days and nights following Everton since the 80s under his management - particularly at Goodison when there's a bear-pit atmosphere and the team and crowd are in concert
And really that's what niggles me, despite the shameful way the Board have failed to support his ambition - if only this bright young manager who swept into Goodison could be more adventurous and daring
As you exemplify, above, (apart from Wembley) just look what the team is capable of when let off the leash
Dave Wilson
191   Posted 21/06/2011 at 12:18:57

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Phil

Always happy for somebody to bring a smile to my face and you latest post certainly did that.

Moyes has been here a long long time, he is bound to have records, both good and bad and for every bad one, there`ll be a good one, records like qualifying for Europe the most times, his teams keeping the most clean sheets, getting the voted manager of the year by his peers the most times.

We`re Evertonians Phil , our history is sprinkled with some glorious moments . .but we have many painful memories, some from long before Moyes came along, dont start getting all Gwladys Knght on us.
Simply choosing to forget isnt an option
Phil Bellis
192   Posted 21/06/2011 at 12:53:15

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Aye, Dave....perspective
2 World Wars, Heysel, Rod Belfitt, Nev's broken ankle, Clive Thomas, Panathinaikos, Bracewell's floating bone, selling Bally, Clattenberg, Lampard Snr - the list goes on but we all live in hope
Stephen Kenny
193   Posted 21/06/2011 at 15:05:17

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I don't think there are many Moyes Haters in the whole of Evertonia.

Most, me included have a great deal of respect for him as a man and for what he's done for the club. That doesn't mean you have to be blind to his faults.

Most Evertonians also recognize that at times, maddeningly often with certain things, he is his own worst enemy.

He is often cautious when there is no need to be, he will repeat an obvious mistake more than once, see this season's pre-season preps and he will down play the form of certian players, see his Baines 2nd best left back comments after he comprehensively outplayed Cole all season.

Ray Roche
194   Posted 21/06/2011 at 16:40:05

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Stephen Kenny.

Stephen,"That doesn't mean you have to be blind to his faults"
Nor should we be blind to his good points. Some people are.
David Mathieson
195   Posted 21/06/2011 at 17:21:50

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James #173 "I think the supporters of Mr Moyes have won" This will be the only thing Moyes and his love-in have ever won. Chuckle Chuckle.
Ciarán McGlone
196   Posted 21/06/2011 at 23:05:34

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Dave,

When will our manager stop repeating the same mistakes?

He may have done good things for this club, but it is his repetition of basic mistakes which is the salient point in any conjecture about how he'd perform with money. Money will not change these limitations. He is simply not programmed for learning how to win. And it's a crying shame.
Dave Wilson
197   Posted 22/06/2011 at 07:07:13

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I`m not sure he will ever stop making these mistakes Ciarán.
He has his blueprint and he`ll stick to it. I cant see him suddenly becoming a guy who manages on impulse or instinct.
I`m of the firm belief that if you give any manager enough time and money they will eventually deliver. If only because he will be able to afford players like Tevez, Drogba, and dare I say it Gerrard. This sort of palyer will hide a multitude of sins commited by their managers. unfortunately Moyes doesnt have one and his mistakes will always be exposed.

This has developed into a decent thread. People defending Moyes against what they see as unfair unjust and untrue criticism are often seen as being blind to his short comings. They are not, despite my little back and forward with Phil, but I know most of the list he put up #145 is pretty near incontestable . . .probably why nobody contested it. I just think most Evertonians cut Moyes so much slack because he has such a worthless Board behind him.

I guess nobody can answer Andys oringinal Question with any degree of certainty. however nearly 200 post would suggest the question was obviously worth asking.

The real questions now are : Does TW have a haul of fame ? and if so, does getting 200 replies to an Article warrent entry into it ? :)
John Hill
198   Posted 22/06/2011 at 08:31:04

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Who? Who? would be mad enough to manage EFC, Moyes is a new breed of manager that will rule in the future, fregusion is living proof that it pays to be patient. if my memories serves me right it took him over 5 years to win a trophy and he had a lot more money than Moyes.
Aston villa have done well 3rd choice after Moyes and Martinez. they are starting to see the light.player power and agent power is about wane and managers like Moyes will be like gold.

This was a nice back door dig at Moyes. get reall the permier league cannot continue to live beyond its means.
Aston villa have realised this and so will other clubs.

This site stinks

Daniel A Johnson
199   Posted 22/06/2011 at 12:14:41

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@ 197

Final sentence

Not if its the same droan worthy pompous fuckers doing a back forth
Stephen Kenny
200   Posted 22/06/2011 at 12:55:16

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Or people with no point to make without the skills to make it!
Dave Wilson
201   Posted 22/06/2011 at 14:20:42

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Daniel #199:

I suppose your right, if the majority of the first half of the thread hadn't been spent dismissing half-baked ill-informed claims like #26, the number of post would have been drastically reduced. Theres a moral in ther somewhere.

"Same squad for 5 years" . . . dear me

Roman Sidey
202   Posted 22/06/2011 at 15:44:00

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Dave, #197 - I totally agree with you now.
Ray Roche
203   Posted 23/06/2011 at 09:36:16

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Er... no point to make... and no skills to make no point...WTF are you talking about?
Stephen Kenny
204   Posted 23/06/2011 at 21:43:25

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Ray

I don't think calling people pompous fuckers because they get involved in a debate where a person struggled to make thief own point is called for.
Ray Roche
205   Posted 23/06/2011 at 23:12:11

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Stephen, at no point have I called anyone a "pompous fucker", although it does have a good ring to it so I may well use it in the future, I merely pointed out that people should not be blind to Moyes good points.

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