Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
Unlock Osman
By James Martin :: 06/12/2011
49 Comments (»Last)
Leon Osman was anonymous against Stoke. It wasn't because he's lightweight, rubbish, goes hiding, too slow or whatever else the hate brigade comes up with. It's due to a serious tactical deficiency that is costing us games and is the root of our attacking impotence.
In the last few games there's been countless times when Fellaini has picked the ball up from the defence and Osman has moved into space offering a forward pass. Fellaini never takes it, he is seen to be keeping possession by passing out wide too early to Coleman or Bilyaletdinov who are practically on top of their own full back. Osman then offers them a ball infield but they never take up that option, it's either back to the defence for a hoof up the pitch or back to Fellaini and the whole thing starts again. Lots of possession football, lots of nice passing... zero penetration, zero supply for Osman or Cahill, and the widemen barely ever being played into good positions.
The odd time we did play bilyaletdinov in further up the field we looked threatening and Baines could make a legitimate run beyond him allowing him to get the cross in. How many crosses a game do Coleman or Bilyaletdinov get into the box? (Not rubbish hopeful ones from the halfway line.) They are not bad players (okay, in Bily's case, he's not a bad crosser) yet they never get the opportunity. Our sole attacking threat comes from Baines going on solo runs to get the supply in (by which time the whole defence is back and in shape) and this leaves our defence unbalanced.
Fellaini's obsession with picking up the ball off the centre-backs then looking to make all the play himself is just negating any attacking intent we have. There is an obsession in keeping the ball around the back six, letting the other team retreat before thinking about a forward pass. Through trying to monopolise possession, Fellaini is robbing us of goalscoring threat. I like the player: strong on the ball, good in the air, and good in possession... there's just no speed of thought, it's either a monotonous pass sideways or backwards, or a forward laser blasted at Cahill or Saha with their back to goal that usually results in them coming back inside their own half to control it.
When Rodwell plays with him, it's even worse because he doesn't even offer the forward ball, he just sits in deep with Fellaini always offering the sideways pass, keeping the ball until we run out of ideas and it goes back to Jags to hoof it up or Baines to take on all 11 men.
Heitinga was actually trying to play the ball out of defence against Stoke yet, as he ran forward, Fellaini would just run straight towards him to take possession. Heitinga is good on the ball; if Fellaini made a forward run, he'd create space and take men away with him. That's why it's so easy for teams to close us down... because no-one runs beyond people, because they've got to filter back to see any of the ball. They're always receiving it facing their own goal with an opposition player right on their coat-tails. Why does Fellaini have to head every one of their goal kicks too? The centreback does this for every other club and they head it funnily enough into the central mdfield area for a battle for possession. Fellaini heads it into the area he should be standing, where instead the opposition have a two-on-one and are immediately in at our back four.
We are short of strikers but that alone doesn't explain why our forwards are pretty much anonymous in all the games we play. Saha is a good player, we know this, as is Cahill, and Vellios. They can all score, yet how many times did the last two touch the ball against Stoke? Unless we had Drogba in his prime taking down 40-yard raking balls on his head, beating two men, then lashing it in from 30 yards, who could Everton have playing up front? The problem is in the supply ? not the strikers. If they were missing chance after chance like that donkey Carroll then fine, blame them... but how many do they get a game? When was the last time Saha got played through one-on-one with the keeper, when Cahill got a header or a tap-in in the 6-yard box? It's not because they're on the decline... the supply just isn't there at the moment.
Moving to 4-4-2 would solve this if we then went Route One, get the ball up and try and keep it up there, but with the players we have we should be better than that, and if the midfield can't function as a five, how can it as a four? Perhaps it's due to a lack of confidence, people not wanting to play the more difficult ball, maybe not trusting Osman's or Cahill's touch. The point is the formation and players have worked in the past. Cahill and Saha had great goal scoring records, Bilyaletdinov didn't have any problems before he came here, Coleman was more penetrative at right back than he is at right mid. The problem lies in the shape of a ?15M lump of negativity in the heart of the midfield. Moyes's greatest failing is being unable to admit that Everton's best form was before he came and when he was injured. Admitting Fellaini's negative influence on the team would be an admittance that he wasted ?15M.
Of course its not the only problem in the team... but, for ?15M and £70k a week, we should have a midfielder that can find a forwards pass a bit quicker than he does at the moment, the rare times he even looks forward. Players like Osman and Bilyaletdinov would actually have the space to play like they have shown in the past if Fellaini would do this. The front five are all taking the blame for our poor form, but they've all got goals in them and have proven it throughout their careers, apart from when Fellaini (and recently Rodwell who seems to be emulating him rather than being the driving force of old) is playing with them.
It comes to the point where I'd rather have Neville and Osman playing centre-mid than Fellaini and Rodwell. It will get shouted down by most people but the two of them have played there in their careers and have been successful. They wouldn't set the world on fire but they know what their jobs are, we'd be better defensively and have more about us going forward. Rodwell and Fellaini are like watching paint dry, their record in the team is absolutely atrocious. Instead of buying another striker who'll just be starved in January, sell Fellaini and buy someone who can really play holding midfield by themselves... magically, the goal scoring from that we always show when Fellaini isn't in the team would come flowing back.
Reader Comments (49)
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Ian Kearney
3 Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:00:19
3 Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:00:19
Agree that Moyes should look at his tactics, but your slating of Fellani is complete drivel, if Osman was half the player Fellaini was (which is about accurate actually), he wouldnt get slated, he is lightweight, he is slow, he is weak and he is useless. The argument of play him in the centre and he will thrive has been well and truly put to bed now, so drop him and give Barkley/Gueye a chance.
Jalil Noor
4 Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:02:36
4 Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:02:36
We do not do enough off the ball running. When one of the players have the ball, most of the time the rest are stationary and waiting for a pass, allowing the opposition to mark and cover the open space. The one with the ball then has limited options whom to pass to and the ball either goes sideways or backwards to create spaces again.
Off-the-ball running doesn't necessarily mean the ball will be pased to you but it creates spaces for your teammates by pulling the opposition.
Off-the-ball running doesn't necessarily mean the ball will be pased to you but it creates spaces for your teammates by pulling the opposition.
Tony J Williams
5 Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:24:36
5 Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:24:36
Jalil, it's such a simple concept isn't it? it's how the game is supposed to be played. Pass and move.
I can't ever imagine Moyes saying, "stick with your marker lads, get in real close"
The players simply don't move and look for the pass, it's so frustrasting to watch when all it would take is a little movement.
"It's due to a serious tactical deficiency " - How is it tactics when the dozy sod with the ball won't pass it? Once more the player apologists shifts the blame to Moyes for a players failings.
There are plenty of things to leave at Moyes's doorstep but a player not picking the right pass is not one of them.
I can't ever imagine Moyes saying, "stick with your marker lads, get in real close"
The players simply don't move and look for the pass, it's so frustrasting to watch when all it would take is a little movement.
"It's due to a serious tactical deficiency " - How is it tactics when the dozy sod with the ball won't pass it? Once more the player apologists shifts the blame to Moyes for a players failings.
There are plenty of things to leave at Moyes's doorstep but a player not picking the right pass is not one of them.
Dave Lynch
6 Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:26:44
6 Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:26:44
He won't pass to him cos he knows he's shit.
Sam Hoare
7 Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:29:59
7 Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:29:59
Think this is a good piece James. Movement and picking passes through the middle definitely seems like our biggest problem.
We are so slow to get men forward that we always allow opposition defenses to reform and as we saw against Stoke it not easy to score against two banks of four and five, especially when we rely on crosses for deep.
I think Fella is a gifted player but he must move the ball forward quickly. Of course its up to other players to offer him options to do so. Rodwell is particularly bad at doing this and rarely seems to be able to find space in the middle.
I think Cahill has alot to answer for this season too. His movement has been poor and i think we would be better off playing Osman in this role (where he played in the second half of last season) as he has the touch and movement to come deep off Saha pick up the ball and then look to thread through a pass or have a shot.
On Sunday neither Cahill, Vellios or Denis were coming short at all and therefore the Stoke centre backs just stayed solid and dealt with long balls and crosses all day.
We are so slow to get men forward that we always allow opposition defenses to reform and as we saw against Stoke it not easy to score against two banks of four and five, especially when we rely on crosses for deep.
I think Fella is a gifted player but he must move the ball forward quickly. Of course its up to other players to offer him options to do so. Rodwell is particularly bad at doing this and rarely seems to be able to find space in the middle.
I think Cahill has alot to answer for this season too. His movement has been poor and i think we would be better off playing Osman in this role (where he played in the second half of last season) as he has the touch and movement to come deep off Saha pick up the ball and then look to thread through a pass or have a shot.
On Sunday neither Cahill, Vellios or Denis were coming short at all and therefore the Stoke centre backs just stayed solid and dealt with long balls and crosses all day.
Eric Myles
8 Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:40:13
8 Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:40:13
You're going to get a lot of stick James for daring to point out the obvious about Fellaini.
Tony Marsh
9 Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:57:42
9 Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:57:42
Unlock Osman... ha ha ha. This post just about sums up all that is wrong with sections of our fanbase. Osman is the luckiest player in the country... To have been a player in the top flight for so long is astounding. Only Moyes and Everton would of put up with him.
Nothing personal but Osman has no pace, can't tackle can't run with the ball, is rubbish in the air, losses possession too easily, can't stand up to a tackle. Basically too small, too slow, too weak, and not a good enough footballer ? and you want him in the engine room??? FFS, give me strength..
Nothing personal but Osman has no pace, can't tackle can't run with the ball, is rubbish in the air, losses possession too easily, can't stand up to a tackle. Basically too small, too slow, too weak, and not a good enough footballer ? and you want him in the engine room??? FFS, give me strength..
Danny Broderick
11 Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:55:12
11 Posted 07/12/2011 at 09:55:12
The balance in centre mid is clearly not right with Fellaini and Rodwell. They are too similar. I still think Fellaini is a good player though, but he needs a little terrier player alongside him, to complement what he does. Fellaini is good in possession (if a little slow at times), he wins the ball in the air and chips in with a few goals. However, he doesn't cover the ground enough, and is clumsy in the tackle. If he had Scott Parker next to him, he would look a better player, and the balance of the midfield would be so much better.
Personally, I think Osman is a good player. I think he suffers more than any other player though when we are going through a bad spell. Because the players tend to stop playing football and resort to making themselves hard to beat. Some of our best football in recent years has involved little triangles between Arteta, Pienaar, Baines and Osman. When Moyes fills the midfield with defenders (e.g. Heitinga, Neville, Coleman) or we start launching it from back to front, is it surprising we don't see much of Osman?
Personally, I think Osman is a good player. I think he suffers more than any other player though when we are going through a bad spell. Because the players tend to stop playing football and resort to making themselves hard to beat. Some of our best football in recent years has involved little triangles between Arteta, Pienaar, Baines and Osman. When Moyes fills the midfield with defenders (e.g. Heitinga, Neville, Coleman) or we start launching it from back to front, is it surprising we don't see much of Osman?
Ian Kearney
12 Posted 07/12/2011 at 10:32:37
12 Posted 07/12/2011 at 10:32:37
I'd like to add that its a fact that Fellaini covers far more ground than anyone else in our team.
Martin Mason
13 Posted 07/12/2011 at 11:50:34
13 Posted 07/12/2011 at 11:50:34
There's a lot more to soccer now than play and move which all defences can cope with. Now you have to play and move but also to get defenders out of position and you'll see even the best teams playing sideways and back to achieve this.
I completely disagree with the comments about Fellaini and some supposed negativity. He picked the ball up and went forward all through the game Sunday, he worked tirelessly and with lots of skill being an attacking threat too yet a strong defender.
The problem isn't Fellaini or Rodwell, it's our wide players who are are just too predictable and the lack of a creative central midfielder. Losing Pienaar and Arteta was a blow because at their best they gave us far better balance.
We have some good players (Heitinga was fantastic Sunday) but in reality we are 4, perhaps 5 players short of a team that could give the top 4 a real game. That we do so well with very average players like Cahill, Osman, Coleman and whoever we play on the left... although Drenthe and Guye may have some promise.
I completely disagree with the comments about Fellaini and some supposed negativity. He picked the ball up and went forward all through the game Sunday, he worked tirelessly and with lots of skill being an attacking threat too yet a strong defender.
The problem isn't Fellaini or Rodwell, it's our wide players who are are just too predictable and the lack of a creative central midfielder. Losing Pienaar and Arteta was a blow because at their best they gave us far better balance.
We have some good players (Heitinga was fantastic Sunday) but in reality we are 4, perhaps 5 players short of a team that could give the top 4 a real game. That we do so well with very average players like Cahill, Osman, Coleman and whoever we play on the left... although Drenthe and Guye may have some promise.
Jimmy Sørheim
14 Posted 07/12/2011 at 11:34:32
14 Posted 07/12/2011 at 11:34:32
Movement, off-the ball running, it is all missing. Fellaini is not the one to blame here. I was watching the same game and I too was looking for who he could pass it to.
Blame Moyes for not buying the right players then, we have this poor squad because of Moyes, he has been piss poor in his transfer dealings, giving Yakubu away for £1 million, and allowing Arteta to leave the club when in truth he should never be allowed to. Remember, this was one of the most feared scenarioes. Selling Baines, Arteta or Pienaar. Well two of them are gone and if Moyes had been even more stubborn he would have tied Pienaar down on a longer contract long before he tried to. Also he should have kept Arteta DESPITE him wanting away ? NEVER let a player rule your decisions. Moyes has done just that.
What else has to go wrong before anyone starts protesting: "Moyes Out!"
Blame Moyes for not buying the right players then, we have this poor squad because of Moyes, he has been piss poor in his transfer dealings, giving Yakubu away for £1 million, and allowing Arteta to leave the club when in truth he should never be allowed to. Remember, this was one of the most feared scenarioes. Selling Baines, Arteta or Pienaar. Well two of them are gone and if Moyes had been even more stubborn he would have tied Pienaar down on a longer contract long before he tried to. Also he should have kept Arteta DESPITE him wanting away ? NEVER let a player rule your decisions. Moyes has done just that.
What else has to go wrong before anyone starts protesting: "Moyes Out!"
Tony J Williams
15 Posted 07/12/2011 at 13:01:06
15 Posted 07/12/2011 at 13:01:06
"Blame Moyes for not buying the right players then, we have this poor squad because of Moyes, he has been piss poor in his transfer dealings, giving Yakubu away for 1 million, and allowing Arteta to leave the club when in truth he should never be allowed to. Remember, this was one of the most feared scenarioes. Selling Baines,Arteta or Pienaar. Well two of them are gone and if Moyes had been even more stubborn he would have tied Pienaar down on a longer contract long before he tried to. Also he should have kept Arteta DESPITE him wanting away, NEVER let a player rule your decicions"
Give it a rest Jimmy, stop blaming Moyes for the sale of players.
Moyes does not control contract negotiations so he could either let Pienaar go for nothing at the end of his conttract or try and get some money for him.
He did not want Lescott to go but after he handed in a transfer request and played like a twat against Arsenal, Moyes had to cave in.
Arteta handed in a transfer request and the banks wanted their money. Moyes rejected Arsenal's offer outright but it's all about player power nowadays.
I am made up Yak went, yes he is a great scorer in the box, but he was doing absolutely fuck all for us so dump him and move on.
These players haven't been replaced and whose fault is that?
Moyes gives his list of transfer targets to the board, who then go quiet and start watching a different space and probably bin the list and go off to watch the theatre or something.
It's not all Moyes's fault at all, he is part of the problem but nowhere near being the whole of it.
Give it a rest Jimmy, stop blaming Moyes for the sale of players.
Moyes does not control contract negotiations so he could either let Pienaar go for nothing at the end of his conttract or try and get some money for him.
He did not want Lescott to go but after he handed in a transfer request and played like a twat against Arsenal, Moyes had to cave in.
Arteta handed in a transfer request and the banks wanted their money. Moyes rejected Arsenal's offer outright but it's all about player power nowadays.
I am made up Yak went, yes he is a great scorer in the box, but he was doing absolutely fuck all for us so dump him and move on.
These players haven't been replaced and whose fault is that?
Moyes gives his list of transfer targets to the board, who then go quiet and start watching a different space and probably bin the list and go off to watch the theatre or something.
It's not all Moyes's fault at all, he is part of the problem but nowhere near being the whole of it.
Jalil Noor
16 Posted 07/12/2011 at 13:45:54
16 Posted 07/12/2011 at 13:45:54
I think this is Everton's tactics for every game now. Pass it to the central midfielders who then pass it to the wide men/overlapping fullbacks who then cross the ball into the penalty box.
Sometimes it works sometimes its don't - see the games against bolton and stoke.
There have been times when there was so much space between the wide men and the edge of the penalty box begging for someone to run into that space, get the ball and run into the box with the ball or to the byeline before pulling it back/crossing it but none of our players are running into that space as the attackers (players in a forward position) are waiting for the ball to be crossed in OR waiting outside the D to switch play to the other flank. And most often than not, it happens on the right side.
Sometimes it works sometimes its don't - see the games against bolton and stoke.
There have been times when there was so much space between the wide men and the edge of the penalty box begging for someone to run into that space, get the ball and run into the box with the ball or to the byeline before pulling it back/crossing it but none of our players are running into that space as the attackers (players in a forward position) are waiting for the ball to be crossed in OR waiting outside the D to switch play to the other flank. And most often than not, it happens on the right side.
Mike Rourke
17 Posted 07/12/2011 at 14:03:58
17 Posted 07/12/2011 at 14:03:58
I heard Ray Wilkins on Talksport discussing the Champions League round of fixtures.
He opined, correctly in my view, that Napoli were able to beat the domestically unbeaten Man City by "baffling them with a 3-4-3 formation"
Imagine how much Moyes (whom I continue to support) would be able to 'baffle' the opposition with a 4-4-2 ? they'd never see it coming.
(And I defo wouldn't have Osman anywhere near any of my formations.)
He opined, correctly in my view, that Napoli were able to beat the domestically unbeaten Man City by "baffling them with a 3-4-3 formation"
Imagine how much Moyes (whom I continue to support) would be able to 'baffle' the opposition with a 4-4-2 ? they'd never see it coming.
(And I defo wouldn't have Osman anywhere near any of my formations.)
Dave Lynch
18 Posted 07/12/2011 at 14:40:51
18 Posted 07/12/2011 at 14:40:51
So Tony.
You are made up the Yak has gone.
Even though you admitt he is a great "scorer in the box". Talk about contradictions, if he was doing fuck all for us doesn't that tell you that we don't get the ball into the box ?
Your defence of Moyes really does go over the top at times, he has to realise sooner or later that we cannot compete without a proven goal scorer and i personally couldn't give a flying fuck if the Yack only touched the ball 50 times a season, as long as 20 of those touches ended up in the back of the net.
Moyes never plays to a strikers strengths, he makes them adapt to their weakness and in the process unsettles them.
No i don't want him sacked (yet) either, as i have stated on here before. We won't get relegated with him so would prefer to see the season out with him.
You are made up the Yak has gone.
Even though you admitt he is a great "scorer in the box". Talk about contradictions, if he was doing fuck all for us doesn't that tell you that we don't get the ball into the box ?
Your defence of Moyes really does go over the top at times, he has to realise sooner or later that we cannot compete without a proven goal scorer and i personally couldn't give a flying fuck if the Yack only touched the ball 50 times a season, as long as 20 of those touches ended up in the back of the net.
Moyes never plays to a strikers strengths, he makes them adapt to their weakness and in the process unsettles them.
No i don't want him sacked (yet) either, as i have stated on here before. We won't get relegated with him so would prefer to see the season out with him.
Tony J Williams
19 Posted 07/12/2011 at 14:59:58
19 Posted 07/12/2011 at 14:59:58
Dave, yes, I am personally made up he is gone. He was usless at the end for us.
His tap ins are great but without skilfull players getting us into the box he is a luxury we couldn't afford.
What defence is going over the top? My views on the transfers that, in my view, Moyes didn't want but couldn't stop? Or the fact that I also blame the board for not supporting him?
Didn't I also include him as being part of the problem? I would be a pretty shitty defence lawyer if that was my idea of a defence.
His tap ins are great but without skilfull players getting us into the box he is a luxury we couldn't afford.
What defence is going over the top? My views on the transfers that, in my view, Moyes didn't want but couldn't stop? Or the fact that I also blame the board for not supporting him?
Didn't I also include him as being part of the problem? I would be a pretty shitty defence lawyer if that was my idea of a defence.
Jay Harris
20 Posted 07/12/2011 at 15:09:32
20 Posted 07/12/2011 at 15:09:32
James
I have to fundamentally disagree.
Ignoring the GK Baines and Fellaini are the only 2 top class players we have.
Rodwell and Barkley have the potential to be class and renthe has class but not consistently.
The rest are only championship quality or too old or knackered (Cahill,Neville and Saha)
Nevertheless a team formation of
Hibbo Jags Heitiga (Distin) Baines
Coleman Rodwell Fellaini Drenthe ( Barkley)
Velios Saha (Straq)
Should be able to beat teams like Stoke.
The manager needs to get his head ot of his arse and start motivating the players instead of talking them down every game too.
I have to fundamentally disagree.
Ignoring the GK Baines and Fellaini are the only 2 top class players we have.
Rodwell and Barkley have the potential to be class and renthe has class but not consistently.
The rest are only championship quality or too old or knackered (Cahill,Neville and Saha)
Nevertheless a team formation of
Hibbo Jags Heitiga (Distin) Baines
Coleman Rodwell Fellaini Drenthe ( Barkley)
Velios Saha (Straq)
Should be able to beat teams like Stoke.
The manager needs to get his head ot of his arse and start motivating the players instead of talking them down every game too.
Tony J Williams
21 Posted 07/12/2011 at 16:01:50
21 Posted 07/12/2011 at 16:01:50
Unlock Osman? Nah! Release the Kraken!!!!!!
Luke O'Farrell
22 Posted 07/12/2011 at 16:46:17
22 Posted 07/12/2011 at 16:46:17
James
There are no excuses for Osman's woeful performance on Sunday. There were numerous occasions were Fellaini looked to get the ball off our CBs and Osman was miles away, hiding behind Whitehead.
Osman is meant to be the creative one; yet barely looked for possession once on Sunday. That's not down to any tactics etc; that's down to Osman.
There are no excuses for Osman's woeful performance on Sunday. There were numerous occasions were Fellaini looked to get the ball off our CBs and Osman was miles away, hiding behind Whitehead.
Osman is meant to be the creative one; yet barely looked for possession once on Sunday. That's not down to any tactics etc; that's down to Osman.
Luke O'Farrell
23 Posted 07/12/2011 at 16:49:45
23 Posted 07/12/2011 at 16:49:45
Ever thought that Fellaini can't play a forward pass, because of the horrendous lack of movement ahead of him.
I don't understand why people have started bashing Fellaini. As someone said earlier, him and Baines are our only two quality players. Fellaini is the only midfielder willing to look for the ball and move it onto to another in blue; yet that's not good enough! God help us.
Fans need to start taking a look at the other players who aren't performing and stop knocking the ones who are.
Maybe he might have to leave, like Arteta, for fans to truly appreciate how good Fellaini actually is.
I don't understand why people have started bashing Fellaini. As someone said earlier, him and Baines are our only two quality players. Fellaini is the only midfielder willing to look for the ball and move it onto to another in blue; yet that's not good enough! God help us.
Fans need to start taking a look at the other players who aren't performing and stop knocking the ones who are.
Maybe he might have to leave, like Arteta, for fans to truly appreciate how good Fellaini actually is.
Dean Adams
24 Posted 07/12/2011 at 17:50:51
24 Posted 07/12/2011 at 17:50:51
"When was the last time Saha got played through one-on-one with the keeper, when Cahill got a header or a tap-in in the 6-yard box? It's not because they're on the decline... "
Well up to that line I was with you. If you watched the Bolton game you would have seen Saha being very weak when in a one on one, hitting the keeper. I know Jussi is a class keeper but hitting shots at him does not show me that Saha is playing well.
Boring to watch, lack of creation in the team is not Moyes fault? Well yes it is. He picks the team, many of us on this website can see more creatine players being ignored because his tactics have become totaly sterile.
Well up to that line I was with you. If you watched the Bolton game you would have seen Saha being very weak when in a one on one, hitting the keeper. I know Jussi is a class keeper but hitting shots at him does not show me that Saha is playing well.
Boring to watch, lack of creation in the team is not Moyes fault? Well yes it is. He picks the team, many of us on this website can see more creatine players being ignored because his tactics have become totaly sterile.
Andy Crooks
25 Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:06:06
25 Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:06:06
Tony,I kind of like your player apologist theme. When Howard makes howler, Cahill misses a sitter,you are absolutely right,it is nothing to do with Moyes. However, when the players don't find space, pass and move,look to help the man with the ball,then it's high time the coach coached them into doing it or made way for someone who can.
Ian Tunstead
26 Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:13:00
26 Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:13:00
Made way for who Andy? A 17 year old or a 19 year old?
James Martin
27 Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:13:56
27 Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:13:56
This isn't an anti-Moyes rant. It's supposed to be a discussion on the team formation. If pushed, though, I do think it is Moyes's mistake that when Fellaini is fit he always plays him. People bang on and on about Moyes's favourties always getting picked no matter how bad the results are yet no one ever mentions that Fellaini is playing in every game and our form is atrocious.
Fine Saha missed a few chances against Bolton, not that he was getting loads against 10 men mind you. He put away the one he got against Fulham. I suppose it can be debated back and forth whether its Fellaini's fault for not playing the ball, or the stirkers' fault for not showing for it... but the facts remain that our form when Fellaini is in the team is a lot worse than when he isn't. Maybe a better formation is needed to get the best out of him but, in the position he is playing in at the moment, the team as a whole is not getting good results, and that's not my opinion ? it's the league table.
Fine Saha missed a few chances against Bolton, not that he was getting loads against 10 men mind you. He put away the one he got against Fulham. I suppose it can be debated back and forth whether its Fellaini's fault for not playing the ball, or the stirkers' fault for not showing for it... but the facts remain that our form when Fellaini is in the team is a lot worse than when he isn't. Maybe a better formation is needed to get the best out of him but, in the position he is playing in at the moment, the team as a whole is not getting good results, and that's not my opinion ? it's the league table.
Andy Crooks
28 Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:25:20
28 Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:25:20
Ian,i meant David Moyes.
Ian Tunstead
29 Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:28:34
29 Posted 07/12/2011 at 19:28:34
Andy, players are not robots, they can think for themselves, they dont need Moyes to tell them to find space. Some footballers just like people in other walks of life have a bit more initiative than others. If Moyes had the money he would buy players who can "find space, pass and move,look to help the man with the ball"
Andy Kay
30 Posted 07/12/2011 at 20:52:20
30 Posted 07/12/2011 at 20:52:20
Lock up Osman ......and throw away the key!!!!
Ian Tunstead
31 Posted 07/12/2011 at 21:12:31
31 Posted 07/12/2011 at 21:12:31
haha good idea Andy, should have been done a long time ago.
James Stewart
32 Posted 07/12/2011 at 22:23:59
32 Posted 07/12/2011 at 22:23:59
Hmmm strange piece. Osman has been garbage when on the ball as well as off it so not sure where your going with making him the centre pin of the team. He needs dropping.
Graham Brandwood
33 Posted 07/12/2011 at 23:20:32
33 Posted 07/12/2011 at 23:20:32
Fellaini did play a number of passes forward on Sunday especially in the first half, and for the first 15 minutes (up to their goal Osman was involved, but he then went missing. Osman looks to be lacking confidence more than any at the moment, but he also seems to be less sharp compared to say Villa last season.
The big problem, however, is Cahill: no speed, no first touch, and he and Velios just did not hold the ball up. If you're Fellaini and you play the ball forward you have to trust the strikers to keep it or you won't risk moving forward for a return pass, or even better get beyond the strikers. Put him behind the likes of Drogba and he would be more effective going forward. We have seious problems up front hence the need to keep clean sheets to get points.
The big problem, however, is Cahill: no speed, no first touch, and he and Velios just did not hold the ball up. If you're Fellaini and you play the ball forward you have to trust the strikers to keep it or you won't risk moving forward for a return pass, or even better get beyond the strikers. Put him behind the likes of Drogba and he would be more effective going forward. We have seious problems up front hence the need to keep clean sheets to get points.
John Ford
34 Posted 07/12/2011 at 23:35:14
34 Posted 07/12/2011 at 23:35:14
"Blame Moyes for not buying the right players then, we have this poor squad because of Moyes, he has been piss poor in his transfer dealings, giving Yakubu away for £1 million, and allowing Arteta to leave the club when in truth he should never be allowed to. Remember, this was one of the most feared scenarioes. Selling Baines, Arteta or Pienaar. Well two of them are gone and if Moyes had been even more stubborn he would have tied Pienaar down on a longer contract long before he tried to. Also he should have kept Arteta DESPITE him wanting away ? NEVER let a player rule your decisions. Moyes has done just that."
I was perusing this thread and came accross this. Its parallel universe stuff, or just a troll at work. Tony Williams @13 dismantles this drivel. Not that it was difficult.
I was perusing this thread and came accross this. Its parallel universe stuff, or just a troll at work. Tony Williams @13 dismantles this drivel. Not that it was difficult.
Dick Fearon
35 Posted 07/12/2011 at 23:33:08
35 Posted 07/12/2011 at 23:33:08
Hey James ? tell me you are havin a laff or are you deliberately trying to get me going?
There was I and many thousand others thinking Osman is by far the worst midfielder in the Premier League when, according to you, he is actually a spell-binding genius needing only to be set free.
If that really is the case, we have all been well and truly fooled by his masterful depiction of a slow moving turd.
There was I and many thousand others thinking Osman is by far the worst midfielder in the Premier League when, according to you, he is actually a spell-binding genius needing only to be set free.
If that really is the case, we have all been well and truly fooled by his masterful depiction of a slow moving turd.
Eric Myles
36 Posted 08/12/2011 at 01:50:38
36 Posted 08/12/2011 at 01:50:38
Graham #31 "Fellaini did play a number of passes forward on Sunday especially in the first half,"
Yes that surprised me as well, maybe Moyes read my suggestion on here to coach Fellaini to face the sideline when passing so the ball would go forwards?
Yes that surprised me as well, maybe Moyes read my suggestion on here to coach Fellaini to face the sideline when passing so the ball would go forwards?
David Booth
38 Posted 08/12/2011 at 13:20:02
38 Posted 08/12/2011 at 13:20:02
Wrong title for the article surely: shouldn't it have read 'Drop Osman'?
I mean, come on, with all due respect to the guy, he's neat & tidy and never complains - but a squad player at best.
Much too lightweight, predictable, ineffective, anonymous and far from anything remotely resembling dangerous to be seen as any sort of saviour.
Especially after how many HUNDRED games?
Can you imagine any Premier League midfielder lining up against him and thinking "God, I'm in for a tough time today"?
When has he ever picked the game up by the scruff of the neck and driven Everton forward? OH, and by the way, citing one or two examples does not count
I do not dislike him and this is not intended as any form of personal criticism as he is a thoroughly good Evertonian, but I think he is one of the principal reasons why we are so easy to manage (from an opposition perspective).
We need someone like Osman, who is our most forward-playing midfielder, to be chipping in with at least eight-to-ten goals a season and bouncing just as many off the bar or forcing the keeper into meaningful saves.
Sadly, Osman poses about as much of a threat as the half time 'hit the bar' contestants!
I mean, come on, with all due respect to the guy, he's neat & tidy and never complains - but a squad player at best.
Much too lightweight, predictable, ineffective, anonymous and far from anything remotely resembling dangerous to be seen as any sort of saviour.
Especially after how many HUNDRED games?
Can you imagine any Premier League midfielder lining up against him and thinking "God, I'm in for a tough time today"?
When has he ever picked the game up by the scruff of the neck and driven Everton forward? OH, and by the way, citing one or two examples does not count
I do not dislike him and this is not intended as any form of personal criticism as he is a thoroughly good Evertonian, but I think he is one of the principal reasons why we are so easy to manage (from an opposition perspective).
We need someone like Osman, who is our most forward-playing midfielder, to be chipping in with at least eight-to-ten goals a season and bouncing just as many off the bar or forcing the keeper into meaningful saves.
Sadly, Osman poses about as much of a threat as the half time 'hit the bar' contestants!
James Martin
39 Posted 08/12/2011 at 14:05:45
39 Posted 08/12/2011 at 14:05:45
For anyone who has read this post properly they would see that its not a panegyric about Osman. You could have anyone playing that advanced midfield role and anyone playing up front but if Fellaini and the widemen won't find them then it doesn't matter who you have there. We are missing creativity in the team and whether people like it or not Osman is our most creative player.
Dick Fearon, I don't think there's thousands who think Osman is the worst midfielder in the Premier League. At no point did I say he's a spell binding genius. In his defense though, he's a player who's been part of a squad that has qualified for Europe on multiple occasions and placed well in the league.
Yes, he has played hundreds of games David Booth, funny how these games have coincided with what any rational football observer would call Everton's best spell of form in the Premier League. No one's saying he's the league's best but don't bring your ridiculous bile on here about him being the league's worst.
Dick Fearon, I don't think there's thousands who think Osman is the worst midfielder in the Premier League. At no point did I say he's a spell binding genius. In his defense though, he's a player who's been part of a squad that has qualified for Europe on multiple occasions and placed well in the league.
Yes, he has played hundreds of games David Booth, funny how these games have coincided with what any rational football observer would call Everton's best spell of form in the Premier League. No one's saying he's the league's best but don't bring your ridiculous bile on here about him being the league's worst.
David Booth
40 Posted 08/12/2011 at 14:47:58
40 Posted 08/12/2011 at 14:47:58
'Ridiculous bile' indeed? Thanks James for such a well-considered and polite reponse.
None of the above at all in my comment if you'd taken the trouble to read it properly. Indeed, I tried (and always do), to make anything I said objective, fair, respectful and reasoned. An example I suggest you may care to follow in future?
What a pity that some people on here cannot just acept others' views and counter them as they see fit without the childish need to resort to personal invective.
Oh, and for your further information, at no point whatsoever did I refer to or allude that Osman was "the league's worst midfielder".
I merely ventured my opinion that he is not very good and does not enhance our team.
Still, wasting my breath re-iterating that if you couldn't be bothered to gather that in the first place!
None of the above at all in my comment if you'd taken the trouble to read it properly. Indeed, I tried (and always do), to make anything I said objective, fair, respectful and reasoned. An example I suggest you may care to follow in future?
What a pity that some people on here cannot just acept others' views and counter them as they see fit without the childish need to resort to personal invective.
Oh, and for your further information, at no point whatsoever did I refer to or allude that Osman was "the league's worst midfielder".
I merely ventured my opinion that he is not very good and does not enhance our team.
Still, wasting my breath re-iterating that if you couldn't be bothered to gather that in the first place!
Colin Wainwright
41 Posted 08/12/2011 at 16:54:25
41 Posted 08/12/2011 at 16:54:25
Sorry James.
Really can't see any ridiculous bile from David Booth.
Really can't see any ridiculous bile from David Booth.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
42 Posted 08/12/2011 at 16:58:46
Editorial Team
42 Posted 08/12/2011 at 16:58:46
Yea, I have to agree, I thought David's post was very reasonable, James.
I should have known from previous form though: put "Osman" in the title and it's a red flag for some...
Not the most appropriate title for what I thought was an more about Fellaini, but I take your point.
I should have known from previous form though: put "Osman" in the title and it's a red flag for some...
Not the most appropriate title for what I thought was an more about Fellaini, but I take your point.
James Martin
43 Posted 08/12/2011 at 17:29:34
43 Posted 08/12/2011 at 17:29:34
Sorry, David your post is not the anti-Osman one, it was Dick Fearon's... I kind of ran my rant into the conclusion of my point against you by accident. I only disagree with your assessment of his impact over hundreds of games. It was Dick Fearon's that said he was the league's worst midfielder.
Andrew Rimmer
44 Posted 08/12/2011 at 20:51:11
44 Posted 08/12/2011 at 20:51:11
"When has he ever picked the game up by the scruff of the neck and driven Everton forward? OH, and by the way, citing one or two examples does not count"....
Who exactly are we talking about here? Osman? Fellaini? Coleman? Rodwell? Billy? Drenthe? Need i go on?
And...
"His tap ins are great but without skilfull players getting us into the box he is a luxury we couldn't afford."......
So let's just carry on playing shite football then? Let's not have a goalscorer because we wont score any goals..
Who exactly are we talking about here? Osman? Fellaini? Coleman? Rodwell? Billy? Drenthe? Need i go on?
And...
"His tap ins are great but without skilfull players getting us into the box he is a luxury we couldn't afford."......
So let's just carry on playing shite football then? Let's not have a goalscorer because we wont score any goals..
Dick Fearon
45 Posted 08/12/2011 at 21:30:14
45 Posted 08/12/2011 at 21:30:14
For the record, I have no personal feelings about Osman one way or the other. I know that he has a sizeable fan club who appreciate his kind of skills.
For the umpteenth, umpteenth time I challenge any of his fans to name an experienced current Premier League midfielder who is slower over the ground, falls over more often and as easily, has fewer shots on target and has less power in his shot?
Far more often than most, Osman will disappear completely from the game. Sometimes you have to scan the field very carefully just to make sure he is on it.
Anyhow, the challenge has never been taken on and is still on the table.
For the umpteenth, umpteenth time I challenge any of his fans to name an experienced current Premier League midfielder who is slower over the ground, falls over more often and as easily, has fewer shots on target and has less power in his shot?
Far more often than most, Osman will disappear completely from the game. Sometimes you have to scan the field very carefully just to make sure he is on it.
Anyhow, the challenge has never been taken on and is still on the table.
Graham Brandwood
46 Posted 08/12/2011 at 22:15:30
46 Posted 08/12/2011 at 22:15:30
I think the ridiculous bile came from Dick Fearon. These sort of posts are what give these sites such a bad name. Would you call Leon such a name to his face.
James Martin
47 Posted 08/12/2011 at 22:46:50
47 Posted 08/12/2011 at 22:46:50
Osman's goal scoring record is actually pretty decent for a player who's often been out of position, he's scored some vital goals for us over the years and they've often come when we've been playing at our worst.
Pace in football isn't everything, Xavi doesn't have any, neither did Riqeulme or Zidane didn't make them bad players. There's plenty of fast strong midfield players who have all played for teams who have got relegated because they haven't got a football brain.
Jay Spearing is a lot worse than him and he's playing for a club ahead of us so I'm certain that theres a whole multitude of faceless mercenary players floating around the bottom end of the table ploughing their teams towards relegation who are a lot worse than Leon Osman, who if I remember correctly was one of the main reaosns behind our revival last season coincidentally after Fellaini had been injured.
Pace in football isn't everything, Xavi doesn't have any, neither did Riqeulme or Zidane didn't make them bad players. There's plenty of fast strong midfield players who have all played for teams who have got relegated because they haven't got a football brain.
Jay Spearing is a lot worse than him and he's playing for a club ahead of us so I'm certain that theres a whole multitude of faceless mercenary players floating around the bottom end of the table ploughing their teams towards relegation who are a lot worse than Leon Osman, who if I remember correctly was one of the main reaosns behind our revival last season coincidentally after Fellaini had been injured.
Eric Myles
48 Posted 09/12/2011 at 01:26:35
48 Posted 09/12/2011 at 01:26:35
Wasn't Osman our best player in the second half of last season? Is Barry Horne President of the Osman Fan Club by the way? or his agent maybe? He constantly praises him on his commentary even when he has done little.
Dick, I think part of the problem you have is the same as I have when watching the match. It's on the telly so the field of view is narrowed and we can't see the other players on the field that aren't on the ball.
Dick, I think part of the problem you have is the same as I have when watching the match. It's on the telly so the field of view is narrowed and we can't see the other players on the field that aren't on the ball.
Jason Lam
49 Posted 09/12/2011 at 01:51:27
49 Posted 09/12/2011 at 01:51:27
99% of the time you don't have the ball, so it's equally if not more important to play football without it. One of the best players without the ball was Michael Ballack. He knew where to position himself, help his team retrieve the ball in packs, makes a complete nuisance to the opposing team, harass the ref.
Osman disappears from the game but does not of the above. He has no value on or off the ball.
Osman disappears from the game but does not of the above. He has no value on or off the ball.
Roman Sidey
50 Posted 09/12/2011 at 03:46:57
50 Posted 09/12/2011 at 03:46:57
James at 44, all I can say is; OH MY GOD!!!!
Okay, I will indulge you. What is Osman's best position in a team of footballers?
Then I want you to answer this: How the fuck do you use Zidane, Xavi and Riquelme in comparison to such a pleb of an athlete???
Those three men in particular revolutionised football for their respective sides, played international football for their country whenever available, and left massive holes in their sides when absent. Osman has done none of the three.
When will people realise that he is an awful footballer who happened to be allowed on the pitch a few times in 10 years to be in the right position to get easy goals?
The man is a joke, and I honestly believe that I, at 26, could make a better debut in the Prem than he could ever perform.
Okay, I will indulge you. What is Osman's best position in a team of footballers?
Then I want you to answer this: How the fuck do you use Zidane, Xavi and Riquelme in comparison to such a pleb of an athlete???
Those three men in particular revolutionised football for their respective sides, played international football for their country whenever available, and left massive holes in their sides when absent. Osman has done none of the three.
When will people realise that he is an awful footballer who happened to be allowed on the pitch a few times in 10 years to be in the right position to get easy goals?
The man is a joke, and I honestly believe that I, at 26, could make a better debut in the Prem than he could ever perform.
James Martin
51 Posted 09/12/2011 at 10:30:36
51 Posted 09/12/2011 at 10:30:36
Roman I'm not comparing him to Zidane, Xavi, or Riquelme, I knew someone would take that out of context and beat me with that. I was merely saying that pace shouldn't be purely used as the yardstick of what makes a good footballer see the three examples of players I've just given. Osman's best position is in central midfield partnered by someone other than Fellaini. The best football we have played under Moyes has come during our Uefa Cup run and in that brief period in 2009 when w turned over the top teams, both of these periods coincided with Osman playing alongside Carsley in the middle and then Arteta. He doesn't have the pace to play off the front man or on the wing.
'Happened to be allowed on the pitch a few times in 10 years to get easy goals' This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've seen on this thread, followed up by the classic 'I could make a better debut in the Prem than he could ever perform'. I can't even remember an easy OSman goal, most of them are absolute belters such as against larissa, Brann away, the header v city.
'Happened to be allowed on the pitch a few times in 10 years to get easy goals' This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've seen on this thread, followed up by the classic 'I could make a better debut in the Prem than he could ever perform'. I can't even remember an easy OSman goal, most of them are absolute belters such as against larissa, Brann away, the header v city.
Andrew Dempsey
52 Posted 09/12/2011 at 15:33:47
52 Posted 09/12/2011 at 15:33:47
The Rodwell/Fellaini axis in central midfield would be helped enormously (and in my opinion, function brilliantly) by a regular full-back selection of Coleman and Baines. We all know the impressive stats Seamus accrued under Holloway at Blackpool by playing in his natural position of attacking right back.
The issue here is not Osman (Jesus!), it's the overall philosophy of the team selection. Putting players where they want to play and building a trust between them (in terms of receiving the ball in tight areas) is something Harry Redknapp seems to get right every weekend.
Moyes doesn't seem to realise you can play a relatively attacking formation and still be solid by retaining possession and keeping good positions.
Our possession never goes anywhere because none of those 11 players on the pitch (and the increasingly dwindling numbers in the crowd) believe that it will. There is no trust. And this negativity comes from the manager, sadly it now infects us all, the worst of us being the ones who continue to defend him. Why is he/we so afraid of what the opposition are going to do to us? There is no confidence or joy, whether you're watching or playing for Everton.
Tim
Seamus John Syl Bainesy (c)
Rod Fella
Royston Ross Maggie
Apostolos
Come on Dave, you know it makes sense.
The issue here is not Osman (Jesus!), it's the overall philosophy of the team selection. Putting players where they want to play and building a trust between them (in terms of receiving the ball in tight areas) is something Harry Redknapp seems to get right every weekend.
Moyes doesn't seem to realise you can play a relatively attacking formation and still be solid by retaining possession and keeping good positions.
Our possession never goes anywhere because none of those 11 players on the pitch (and the increasingly dwindling numbers in the crowd) believe that it will. There is no trust. And this negativity comes from the manager, sadly it now infects us all, the worst of us being the ones who continue to defend him. Why is he/we so afraid of what the opposition are going to do to us? There is no confidence or joy, whether you're watching or playing for Everton.
Tim
Seamus John Syl Bainesy (c)
Rod Fella
Royston Ross Maggie
Apostolos
Come on Dave, you know it makes sense.
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2 Posted 07/12/2011 at 08:50:09
Any way my 2c worth. Moyes sets out how the team and the players in it play.
It won't change until he does