“The first chance, we’re studs away from a goal” - David Moyes after defeat to Man City

It was the same as at Anfield in April, almost a carbon copy of it actually.

Beto clean through hits the post when you simply have to take those chances, ironically enough he did score a close call offside that same night and it at least gave VAR a decision to make.

But this is why we don't win these types of matches unfortunately, when the few chances do present themselves the strikers are never clinical.

How great it would have been to have had Grealish and Ndiaye supplying ammunition for Lukaku or us having Grealish and Ndiaye and a player even like Steven Naismith cropping up in the box, a capable finisher of chances.

We have spent so much money on players over the last decade but we've failed to rectify not having a top drawer striker, we have barely even signed a semi competent one.

Imagine if we had been able to sign Woltemade and brought in the experience of a Danny Welbeck instead of the two we currently have?

Imagine if we had signed even two of the players Bournemouth and Brighton have in the last few years, pace, power, technique.

And I don't buy that they won't come to a club like Everton.

They've signed for clubs like Bournemouth, Brighton, Villa.

We are a club with huge potential, a new stadium that is the envy of many, we've got England's number one in goal.

We make too many excuses sadly as fans for the ineptitude that has been allowed to run stinking inside the club for too long.

In fact, don't you think it's time to stop imagining what we could have done with competent ownership over the past 10 years, or how good we could have been if they hadn't been so incompetent?

It's done. It's over. Kenwright and Moshiri are gone. The ineptitude is gone. We have competent ownership now and the process of rebuilding has begun. Don't you think it's time to embrace that instead of continuing to bemoan what has gone before?

A striker was another priority, but so far that doesn't seem to have been solved either. Good strikers are notoriously hard to find, but there can't be many (any?) teams in the PL with poorer options than us. One or two posters said yesterday they see potential in Barry, but I am just not seeing it and personally would stick with Beto for now. Hoping for a Jan miracle.

Players come for the money mainly, the Champions League you can sell that to them and tell them that they can be the catalyst to the club achieving it.

Did anyone think Middlesbrough would sign 3 Brazilian internationals and Ravanelli in the '90s?

The point I'm making is we have spunked £600M on players yet not once signed a quality striker.

And for what it's worth, I believe we have signed a quality striker, and I believe it's Looney Tunes to write him off after 200 league minutes as everyone here seems to have done.

(Also I would remind you those big-money signings didn't do Boro much good. They got relegated.)

Strange about perceptions, though... according to BBC Sport, Barry was second among all forwards across Europe's top 5 leagues last season in winning aerial challenges at 66.7%. And per EPL official stats he's won 16 aerial duels in just 229 league minutes this season, which is a stunning rate of 6.4 per 90 minutes. Yet you and others have commented he's "poor in the air." Can't figure that one out. He looks dominant to me.

Until yesterday, I thought Beto had far more presence in the team but was so disappointed with his efforts. Not the misses but pure effort.

On the other hand, I was very impressed with Barry when he came on, full of running, high press... So I will hold my council a little longer and await developments.

At home, I think Beto works hard and is, erm, unpredictable. His first touch is awful. But we haven't really provided the kind of pass he converted last season.

Barry contributed to the build up play of one of the goals early on (against Brighton maybe?), but otherwise looks very easy to defend against. It will be very interesting to see what happens after he finally scores... ie, how much confidence is involved.

I watched it on cable TV with a good stream. I agree with your view on Beto and, from what I have seen of Barry to date, I didn't think he had any presence in the team.

I remember one game at BMD and he had a chance to run on to a through ball and didn't have the pace and was easily muscled off the ball. Also against Wolves in Cup, he was easily muscled out and ended up getting a yellow card for kicking the ball away.

However, I watch for attitude and effort as much as anything and I did think, when he came on yesterday, he did show an improvement. Hope springs eternal.

Just watched the highlights of Liverpool v Man Utd and if Beto missed the chances that Gakpo missed, imagine the legion of posters saying "What a waste of money"... Just for some perspective.

Not really anything like relevant though when you compare that to our players is it.

Gakpo won the league with them last season, Beto didn't play in a league winning Everton team, he's a symptom of a mediocre mid-table to bottom table mentality.

I think most Everton fans would be much more lenient if we had a title winning forward missing one or two sitters this season.

Clearly you have never played football at any great level, or you are a poor loser.

Almost every player and opposing manager shake hands after the match... as they should.

Don't really get your angst.

What used to piss me off, though, was the matieness particularly from nice guy Jags, in the tunnel before a game.

For me, the issue is we have two forwards, Barry and Beto, and that won't change at least until January, so what we need to do is find a game plan to suit each of the players' abilities.

Does it really matter what level anyone has played at? Surely being a bad loser means a person doesn't like losing? Isn't this the way it's supposed to be if it's your job and you're getting paid millions?

I'm not jumping on the bandwagon to give David Moyes stick but I don't think it's something that I can recall ever seeing from a manager with a real winning mentality.

I've seen Pep after games that he's lost go onto the pitch at the end and shake hands and talk to the opposition players.

You're definitely jumping on the bandwagon... most managers are bad losers but they hide it well, shake hands and congratulate opponents.

Davey Moyes does it...

Fuck me, this wouldn't have even been acceptable for many of the teams who were only lucky enough to play on the dockers club back in the day, but maybe life has changed...

I doubt it will have changed for the people who genuinely hate losing though!

Seamus in the tunnel, ignoring the other team, Viagra eyes, totally focused... that's how we should be.

But I saw your comment coming from way back...

Maybe you saw mine coming too though?

I thought it was a bit odd when I saw Moyes laughing with Haaland yesterday, but it's not something I would have ever brought up.

David @22 brought it up and got shot down for it, so I just thought I'd come on to say that I actually agreed with David, rather than the people who shot him down.

The most pathetic statement I've ever read on ToffeeWeb came from you the other week, Ryan, when you actually said Everton had the worst fan base in the country.

I try to give reasons for my views but sadly it's becoming very difficult to debate with a few people on ToffeeWeb. Maybe it's me? Maybe I've turned into a sad, pathetic old man who needs to start smiling a bit more... Especially when Everton lose.

I don't like losing but always shook hands and said "Well played".

The highest level I played in England was Accrington Stanley FC and Nelson FC in the North West Counties League, so you are correct that I never played at a Great level!!

Had I played 500 games for Everton and 100 times for England, I would never have a big smile on my face straight after a game when talking to an opposing player.

I've read a few suggestions here on TW, Ndiaye up front, Keane up front. Neither for me works because you are creating holes somewhere else.

For me, the biggest problem is the slow build-up or Pickford launching long hopeful balls up into a crowded defence. Beto got most of his goals through fast balls delivered to him. Rarely have I seen him get quality quick ball. Grealish is great but slows down play and, when the ball is played into the penalty area, it is too crowded. O'Brien similarly tends to pass sideways or backwards when he moves forward.

Look at Haaland first goal: City break fast, our defenders are scrambling back, but Haaland hangs back, creates his own space, and makes an uncontested header.

We have good players but they need to move the ball faster. Moyes succeeded last season because he encouraged our backs to push forward (unlike Dyche), hence more goals scored. Now he needs to get them moving forward faster and get out of the habit a passing back to Pickford to launch.

Most of our chances yesterday came from us taking on their defence.

Rant over. Goodnight all

“The police said 12 civilians and three police officers were injured, while nine people were arrested and 16 detained for questioning.”

Apparantly there were some flares thrown as well?

Doesn't sound much of a “riot” to me? I've seen worse scenes at a Paphos Limassol derby and I bet there were more injured, more questioned, and more flares thrown at the last Goodison derby!

We've added a good deal of quality to the club, but very little pace, and we remain one of the slowest teams in the Premier League.

Moving on, I have no issue with players and managers shaking hands at the end. For me, it's expected sportsmanship.

Taking it too far is a bit too much for me. Leave that for a post-match interview, or a visit to the opposition changing room, but a bit submissive and hard to take in the immediate aftermath of a defeat.

In cricket, both teams go onto the ground, shake hands and pat each other on the back. That is how sport should be played and supporters should embrace it.

Some of you are showing the Shankly way: it's more than life and death. I have news for you, it ain't. Living in Gaza or Ukraine is a matter of life and death.

Moyes should by his tactics be bringing in other players to shoot. If the sole outlet is one player to score, then any Premier League defence should be able to do enough to put him off. Well... almost any except Everton.

Did the set-piece coach get the sack or is he still there? Everton's set-piece play is that abysmal, it is not even talked about now, never mind being a threat. How long is it since Everton scored from a set-piece?

Moyes needs them to get the ball forward faster and be creating forward space, instead of being happy going toe to toe with a second rate Man City and getting beat 2-0 as usual.

'Studs' -- talk about trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Maybe he should try longer studs.

If he had won us the Premier League a few months before, I'm sure we'd be okay about it, particularly as one was a Champions League game.

As it is, Moyes has us currently 12th, and out of the League Cup already.

I find it strange the way footballers can be so weak on the pitch in terms of the antics after an innocuous tackle; compared to the heavy tackles taken in rugby without a murmur.

And strange that the same players who have just been so prissy on the pitch suddenly become so “hard” in refusing to shake hands after the game.

Embarrassing.

Boxing/kickboxing too - sports in which they literally knock 7 bells out of each other. This is why I have become to dislike football -- and I know how ridiculous that sounds on a football website. I hardly ever watch any games that don't involve Everton -- the diving, feigning injury, the brandishing of pretend cards etc etc, it leaves me feeling a little sullied.

The Beto - Barry conundrum. I think they are experiencing the psychological issues that many strikers have =- score a goal and suddenly the floodgates open. I have indeed been critical of both -- Beto's control, Barry's not being in the position to score goals.

But 1 goal for either can change a lot -- look at the run Beto went on last season; even Lukaku once went around 8 games or so without a goal if my memory serves me correctly. Beto's misses seem to shout out a definite crisis of confidence, both at club and international level.

One goal might change a lot for either striker. That said, more goals needed from the midfield and I'd like to see the midfield players moved around a bit. Plus, give Garner a run at right-back.

Our much vaunted attacking midfield is not actually creating that many opportunites for our strikers; not helped of course by having two wingers who want to cut in and zero fullbacks who are comfortable overlapping and creating in the final third.

It's very easy to say that our strikers would not play for any other team but i'm not at all sure that is true. Put either Barry or Beto in the starting lineup for Palace or Brighton or Brentford and I reckon they'd have some goals. I'm not saying either are playing brilliantly (clearly they are not and Barry in particular has lots of growing to do) but currently there is a disconnect between their strengths (ball in behind and/or good crosses into the box) and how we are playing.

We need a right back and it was negligent to not get one and to also give Coleman another contract.

Not many seem that concerned about left back which is just as much of a problem. Mykolenko is shockingly poor but somehow gets a pass. He was torn apart by Savinho on Saturday, who should have scored at least two goals, but this glaring weakness always seems to slip under the radar.

Now every time I comment on this sort of thing I know I'm at risk of being called a Moyes hater, but can we just accept that he isn't good enough for us right now. In 2002 he was perfect, now we have moved on, football has moved on and he hasn't. This isn't Moyes bashing, it is just obvious.

My biggest gripe is not Moyes the manager but it is that he represents a mentality of trying not to lose rather than trying to win. Perfect example of this is is the Palace v Bournemouth game. 2 managers who want to win - and Glasner has actually won things.

I don't believe you can say that they have better strikers - Mateta isn't exactly prolific and the Bournemouth scorers aren't household names.

A quick AI search can paint a picture - since 2002 these are the EPL managers who have managed the most games (including domestic cups):

Manager Total Games Managed (All Competitions)
Arsène Wenger 1,235+
Alex Ferguson 1,100+
David Moyes 1,000+
Harry Redknapp 950+
Sam Allardyce 900+
Steve Bruce 850+
Roy Hodgson 800+
José Mourinho 700+
Rafael Benítez 700+
Martin O'Neill 650+
Pep Guardiola 600+
Jürgen Klopp 600+
Brendan Rodgers 550+
Alan Pardew 500+
Tony Pulis 500+

And here are the managers who have won something (EPL, FA Cup or League Cup):

Alex Ferguson
Alex McLeish
Antonio Conte
Arne Slot 
Arsène Wenger
Brendan Rodgers
Carlo Ancelotti
Claudio Ranieri
Eddie Howe
Erik ten Hag
Gérard Houllier
Guus Hiddink
Harry Redknapp
José Mourinho
Juande Ramos
Jürgen Klopp
Kenny Dalglish
Louis van Gaal
Manuel Pellegrini
Michael Laudrup
Mikel Arteta
Oliver Glasner
Pep Guardiola
Rafael Benítez
Roberto Di Matteo
Roberto Martínez
Roberto Mancini
Steve McClaren

All the other managers in that top list that never won anything have been put out to pasture.

Moyes may well know what is wrong and if that is the case he simply hasn't got the ability to fix it, he never has.

I’d like to see him play NDiaye as striker but unless Dibling gets up to speed that’s unlikely. I don’t think he’s got much of an option but to try and play our expensive strikers into form, hope for a purple patch and then get rid before they’re found out again!

I'll jump on the bandwagon too I guess. I didn't mention it before as I knew it would be controversial but since it has been raised now I may as well pile in.

Just before full time as we were attacking, until Garner was stopped for "handball", the camera panned to Jack Grealish sitting in the crowd texting and cracking up laughing at something on his phone.

Then, full-time came and Moyes looked like he was a kid meeting Santa as he gleefully chatted with Haaland, while Pickford was having a great old back slapping laugh and carry on with another Man City player.

Now, I do believe you can and should be magnanimous in defeat. And, despite our best efforts the better team won. However, all the smiles and laughter kind of miffed me a little bit as we didn't seem to be disappointed we had lost.

Rather, it was like we were star struck and fan boying after what Moshiri would call "an expected loss". I think that speaks to the mentality installed in the club over 30 years.

It is good enough to be the best of the rest as long as try, even if the "rest" is the losing team against a single opponent. Mad as it may seem, I'd like to see us feeling a little pain after any defeat, no matter how gallant the loss, as it suggests we have a "never say die" mentality.

City's wage bill is over £500M; ours is around a quarter of that and all we find is posters carping about the manager, the players and the club.

I played at all levels and managed a couple of amateur teams and, believe me, I hated losing but I always found time at the end of the game to shake hands and exchange a few pleasantries. It's called sportsmanship.

I know losing hurts but, until we get back up to the level of spending of the top teams, we are going to lose quite a few games.... but we are certainly losing a lot less than we would without Moyes.

There is a difference between a polite handshake and "well done" versus grinning like a Cheshire cat and laughing away.

It should be more like signing the armistice after world war I or something. A solemn duty.

Haaland sees scrawny old Scot who he doesn't recognize from Adam, but politely extends his hand to reciprocate Moyes'.

Solemnly Moyes says:

"The Battle of the Etihad is over. I expect that the Battle of the Premier League is about to begin. Upon this battle depends the survival of Everton. Upon it depends our own Evertonian life, and the long continuity of our institution and of ToffeeWeb.

The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us. Pep and Slot know they will have to break us in these matches or lose the league. If we can stand up to them, all of the Premier League may be free and the life of Evertonians may move forward into broad, sunlit terraces.

"But. if we fail, then the whole league, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Sky Six age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the doings of perverted referees.

"Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if Everton and ToffeeWeb last for a thousand years, men will still say, “This was their finest hour”."

You've lost. What's to be happy about.
Another loss at the emptyhad.

I certainly wouldn't be all smiles and arse crawling their shite hair do striker.

1. Our mangers and players smiles at end of game. Yes, I was a little surprised by the scenes at end of game. It does indicate a mentality which I would not be happy with. Shake hands, congratulate but surly you would be hurting inside.

2. Our strikers: Yes, they are limited but they are not getting the sort of supply that other strikers get. It is too slow and ponderous. If Beto butchered the chances that Doku and Savhino missed we would be slating him. Beto's chances were much more difficult. We need to feed our strikers faster. Those advocating dropping them and using Ndiaye as a centre-forward is fantasy at the moment. We would loose our attacking midfield option on wing. Dibling does not appear ready so it would leave gaps in our attack.

3. On those “who are not Moyes haters” but still advocating he be replaced, who is available who would take on the Everton job who would meet your requirements?

Yes Glasner or Iraola would be great but that is a conversation for end of season, not in mid-season. Or do you have a gem out there who is chomping at the bit to manage Everton and lead us to the holy grail???

Every single person who has criticised the people who didn't agree with Moyes's actions have said exactly the same thing as the people they are actually criticising. I haven't seen one poster actually agree that it's okay for our manager to laugh and joke with the match winner.

Everyone acknowledges that you should shake hands and show respect but not one person has actually said that they don't mind the manager laughing and joking on the pitch after a defeat.

People agreed with what John Williams said about other sports but I don't think anyone who was criticising our managers actions would actually disagree with what John said about sportsmanship.

Unless we are looking like relegation candidates by the start of the January window, I think he is here for at least the season.

If we did sack him, as others have said, who would we get in to replace him, mid season? Ange anyone? Thought not...

I must say I don't have a problem with this, and normally I love to hear Moyes being slammed on here because I don't like him. But I actually agree that it's okay for our manager to laugh and joke with the match winner.

The game is over. City have won. Nothing is going to change that. Haaland is a brilliant striker and Moyes only gets to see him up close and personal twice a year.

"Ach, yus did a wee foin jawb on us thair, Early. By charnce cud ya get yerslef doon tha East Lanks Rood und shoo oor bhoyz a thang or too?" [Big Smile!]

No, I really don't mind the manager laughing and joking on the pitch after a defeat. Shows he might actually have some humanity within that dour Presbyterian persona!

We get it already.

Michael #66, you and I never agree on anything, but I'm with you (in the minority) on this one. Moyes' grin didn't bother me a bit.

I've played a thousand games and reffed a thousand more, and IMO it says nothing about a man's competitiveness to be wearing an upbeat expression in defeat. It is possible to lose a game and still take pleasure in having played.

He expected nothing from that game so why would he be disappointed?

That's why I would sack Moyes now. I am so bored of tedious Everton. Tedious football, nothing to play for, deja vu, no highs -- just nothing. Years and Years of Moyes nothingness. I'm bored of thinking it, bored of posting it, bored of people calling it tedious -- but it is.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. Very Moyes that.

Not my job to pick the new manager, but if these owners have true ambition -- let's see it. Going back to 2002 is not the answer. In 2002, the first camera phone was released. We've moved on a lot since then; so has football.