Fightback but two vital points dropped

Ive said it before, if Duffy is not better than Heitinga he should look for a different career.
Heitinga does not tackle, gives strikers too much room and is too slow !!
God knows, I have said so many times that he is the worst Dutch international I have ever seen.

Davey Moyes — the Manager for All Seasons.... well, HALF a season anyway!

Thought Anichebe was a massive plus. Fantastic display, and dominated their centre backs for the most part.

The equaliser aside, our corners are shit and have been shit for a long time. Our throw ins are worse, and our movement off the ball is childish. At some point in that game I wondered if the team had actually trained together in the past 12 months.

Felli was top class but only in the last 20 mins, before that he was pretty average. Its going to take Gibson/Mira time to get back to match sharpness and we dodged a bullet today with the equalizer.

JH was woeful but anyone who thinks that's the last we will see of him is mad. The squad is thin as hell so he will be involved in many ways before May comes along. He probably should be shipped out but as we know the transfer window has fucked off.

We needed at least 2 first team players in the window and got nothing

That will cost us.

Entirely Moyes fault – he is more aware than us of Heitinga's frailty against pace and power, and he effectively hung the player out to dry.

Monumentally fucking stupid tactics, compunded by typical dithering: wait till 3-1 down (could have been 4 had Weimann not skied an easy chance) then make the subs that were crying out for at 1-0.

Days like this make me despair – I want to fucking puke.

Great comeback but it's defo 2 points dropped because of that clueless Dutch downsy. Given away 3 soft goals in less than 2 hours of football against shit opposition. Get rid.

He should never play again.

He doesn't look interested to me.

Jags at centre back and Neville at full back it should have been. Unless Neville was injured, it was a bad choice by Moyes.

Nice of Fellaini to turn up for the last 10 minutes which was exactly 10 minutes more than Pienaar. He never turned up at all. Ovieda did plenty.

A great fightback all the same.

Please don't go on about Heitinga. He should not have played

I refuse to believe that Heitinga is a bad footballer. I think his head has been messed up this year through being unceremoniously dropped at the start of the season after the year he had last year. As someone mentioned earlier, Moyes playing him against someone like Benteke is hanging the bloke out to dry.

Yes you made the wrong decision then you corrected it after we lost 3 goals mind you.
JH should have been subbed after the first goal, it was embarrassing.

When was the last time Moyes put one of his first team players in the reserves when they were playing badly???

As bad as he was, there were many other really poor performances today – Howard was indecisive, Pienaar stunk the place out, Osman was ineffective, even Baines and Gibson toiled.

Anichebe was terrific, probably MotM and Fellaini escapes criticism for two vital goals.

Wonder how much the pitch played a part – worst I've seen it in 30 years, players seemed not to trust a pass and the ball was bouncing off shins all game, but that's no excuse – same for both teams.

Blood pressure subsiding, but still furious and blaming Moyes all the way. Stubborn bastard.

If Nev isn't played at RB it should be him with both Coleman and Hibbert injured.

He should be on the bench at the very least.

Worse, Moyes set the defence up so he was the middle man of three.

Could you not predict the outcome of Heitinga vs Benteke?

2. We have to rotate. Pienaar and Ossie are feeling it. They are not spring chickens and need a break. We have the option of dropping Felli back alongside Gibson and starting Oviedo and Mirallas in the wide positions. Vellios and Vic can do a job upfront.

3. Felli got us out of jail, but Vic played really well. The manager needs to keep in this frame of mind, he is up there with Felli and Bainsey in terms of performances.

All in all a crap result against a crap team whilst playing crap football.

Man Utd next week and if Moyes does normally roll over for SAF, here won't have to with the way this shower are performing.

Still four spot doesn't look that far off -Not !!!!!!!

D'ya know. This feels like a win!

And yes, after all the rubbish said about Vic on this site - so glad he is showing up as the player he can be.

If you are still feeling like having a puke please find somewhere with a big fucking whole so that you can fall in it.

Moyes, Moyes, Moyes, fucking Moyes – the same team took 3 points off WBA so I'm guessing Moyes thought the same team could do it against the Villa. Heitinga had a mare, it happens. If you work I'm sure you have fucked up – you just correct your mistake and get on with it.

Tactics – what the fuck do you know about tactics other than watching MOTD, playing FM or taking yourself to GP? I mean what do you know? Because "monumentally stupid fucking tactics" just don't cut it. I want to know what Moyes should have done with his 18 first team players that top tacticians like yourself can spout off. A fucking tip for you though, Neville is carrying an injury, Coleman is fucked and Hibbo is totally fucked.

He gave away two poor goals, but, as has been said on here already, there weren't many acceptable performances on our side anyway. Vic was good, but it was plainly obvious that all the work he was doing was for nought because he rarely had anyone to give it to after holding. Put two up top from the start and watch Victor and Jelavic bang them in for fun.

Pienaar and Osman need to be told to never shoot for goal. It is pointless. In ruggers we joke about writing "don't kick" on the forearms of forwards - these two need "don't shoot".

Heitinga fucked up. He is a good defender, and he should have been better...but I think the lack of defensive cover from midfield was also to blame today... but we still should have beaten Villa. We are making things harder and harder for ourselves.

Quicker Moyes admits that to himself the better for the team.

As said elsewhere, if Duffy can't get a game ahead of him, we are properly in the shit at centre back.

I have said this so many times...JH is the worst Dutch internationalI have ever seen and if Duffy is considered worse than him then the lad should change career,

DM should have played Neville ar right back and restored Distin and Jags to centre back where they both belong.

No one else has shown any interest in JH either when we bought him or since he has played for us....the same goes for Bily and Maggi, they were all bad acquisitions.

I must admit I was apprehensive when I saw the team that was picked.
Benteke needs a strong centre back against him.

The only plus point was the fight shown.
Our biggest problem is the size of the squad, no team in the premier has used less players and that is important.
If you want success you need a strong bench,

Better maybe than PJ at RB and JH at CB

erm.......lots of love JTA.............

"Some people thought we made a mistake today, but it turned out ok."

It turned out that we scrambled a home draw against a side who have been twatted by sides from lower divisions as well as so-called lesser Premier League teams than us in recent weeks.

Gutted and pissed off we didn't try sign Butland and Howard once again shown why, he was shit and has no control over his 6 yard box. From where I was I could see a few people in the Gwladys Street giving him abuse, Howard shouted back and gestured with his hand, as if to say 'fuck off'.

Osman and Pienaar have been blowing hot and cold far too much lately and Fellaini's form of late is well below what is expected even if he did score two.

Its no secret that I don't like Moyes but I thought it was harsh for the crowd to again boo his sub decisions. Well that was untill I noticed he didn't change the shape at all. Putting Anichebe on the wing and having just one upfront when chasing the game was fucking stupid.

Howard - New keeper is a priority for me now - 4
Jag - Looked a lot better when put in his proper (only) position - 6
Heitinga - Joke - 2
Distin - Will have to see motd to see if he could have done better on any of the goals - 6
Baines - Tried hard and got forward well - 7
Mirallas - Probably needs a few more games to rediscover his form, poor crossing today - 5
Gibson - Some good passes some poor - 6
Osman - Not involved enough - 5
Pienaar - Worrying form for quite a while now - 5
Fellaini - Seemed uninterested and would have got a 5 if it wasn't for his goals - 7
Anichebe - Took his goal well but still pisses me off with his lazy ways, woefull first touch and back to feigning injury - 6

The other 2 Aston Villa goals hes looses battle in the air.. .

Please why cant we just put Jagielka back in the center??

COME ON Moyes!!

He was hardly muscled out for the first, he just let him run past. Benteke never even touched him.

Same for the second, he was hardly smashed out of the way for the header. He didn't even jump. It might have helped if he was even looking at his man.

The third was a great ball but it just looks so lazy when he just sticks his foot out.

Come back soon Hibbo. Someone who will put his body on the line for Everton, totally the opposite to the Dutch shithouse.

So he buys a teenage "one for the future" prospect from the Championship 2 days ago and you expect him to have an immediate place in the starting 11 ahead of 2 proven Premiership and international players?

This quote.

What about drawing at home to arguably the worst team in the league is "ok"?

Thought Anichebe had another solid game and was good value for his goal even when the foul on him in the build up itself was a pen he kept his head and put it away without the old theatrics. Fellaini came on strong at the death from a fairly anonymous earlier chunk of the game. Overall thankful of the point but FFS it was Villa, a side beaten by the giants of Bradford and Millwall in recent weeks, at times Everton made it seem like we were playing against Real Madrid giving them too much respect and time on the ball. Hope they get relegated, Benteke will make another team very, very happy

this season

when played out of position.

The Heitinga decision was a strange one for me. Can only presume Neville is carrying a knock, but in that case why have him on the bench? I agree with those who say that if any of the three centre halves have to play right back then it should be Heitinga. You don't mess around with the centre half pairing and Jags and Distin have proven to be our best two.

I thought Anichebe gave another good account of himself and Fellaini proved his worth with his goals. Didn't do enough for me besides that, but I'll take the goals everytime. Tomorrow's games will show how bad today's result really was. If Spurs and Liverpool lose, then it's no disaster. If either or both win then its two big points dropped. Just galling to think of the points we've lost at GP this season. Add Villa to Norwich, Newcastle and Swansea...

Of course, we could and perhaps should have a few more points but at the start of the season I'd happily have settled for what we have now, I've seen ,though, a few times this season just what we can do and want more of it. What's wrong with that?

He is useless in the Premier League. No pace, power, height or bottle. Not his fault but Moyes's fault for selecting him.

Why, Why, Why tinker with your back four??? For fuck's sake, Davey it's basic managerial skills.

MOyes has moaned year on year about reducing the age of the squad but won' give youth a chance, if their not mood enough they go, if they are still new he must think they are good enough.

Even the shite get give youth a chance. If the lad was going to deliver if was going tone on his debut.

But then again, why should I think someone should've able to do a job on the pittance they are paid! Silly me....

Villa — 4 shots on target... 3 GOALS!!!
Everton — 13 shots on target... 3 goals.

Our conversion of chance rate is beyond disturbing, and not just for this game but for many others. those numbers translate into a footballing disgrace.

The second half took abut twenty minutes to get started, The ref was pissing about, injuries everywhere and Villa falling all over the place. Ahichebe had a good first half but went quiet. Fellaini was decent particularly in the last twenty.

Where has the movement gone. The willingness to show and to create options? We did well enough to win but we still lack quality.

What a difference a new face or two would have done for the team and the fans. It might just have been what we needed.

Kev, I said to my mates before kick off that I'd sooner have had Oviedo at RB and leave our best central partnership in situ. When Oviedo came on at RB and jags reverted to CB we were much better. He has pace and threw in a couple of good tackles, if Neville doesn't get the nod I'd sooner start with him than anyone else who's currently fit. It's probably too soon for Stones. Heitinga, as you can no doubt guess, stunk the place out.

Smashed him around all day, the manager should have had an easy decision to make re centre half selection today. Big mistake from Moyes.

He was let down by the Board in the window. If we really had £10 million to spend we should have identified more targets earlier. However, most of you on here need a real sense of perspective. Just sit back for a moment and compare our squad and transfer budget with Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and the RS.

Colin, I'm in agreement with you on that, I just don't know what is wrong with Moyes, he doesn't seem to trust some of the younger players. If Duffy can't get in the team before JH then Duffy must be crap. Anyway, I'm off for something red and French to calm myself down.

The majority of footballers apprenticeship begins when they are barely teenagers, if they have the talent they play unless they don't quite have the bulk, this lad does.

If he was foreign would you suggest we don't play him because of the language barrier? I suggest not, how many other players bought in the window played?

The idea of this window is too bolster for now not three years time.

Thought Vic did well again, lots of effort a well taken goal and a changed person from what I have grown to dislike .

JH on Twitter/

Well, at least he was honest. The squad is so small he will play again and if Jags/Distin get crocked he will be the first one in. All I can say is that he is an excellent passer of the ball, the rest has gone to shite

Well I was hoping to be wrong but again they were abysmal. Jags and Distin are by far our best central pairing — why the fuck split it up to give Heitinga a game? — especially when Neville was available to play right back!!!

A couple of the lads were happy Neville wasn't playing as they reckoned Agbonlahor's pace would do him. Have they never seen Heitinga run? — cos he can't! I happened to mention that, regardless of Neville's lack of speed, his positional sense and experience more than compensates. Remember how he stitched up Bale?

Hopefully now and finally Moyes will keep Heitinga on the sidelines for the rest of the season. There were a number of occasions today when Distin had to cover 2 men cos that prick Heitinga was missing. He is more suited to continental type football and the sooner he fucks off back there the better.

I pointed out during the game that Anichebe and Fellaini repeatedly received the ball with their backs to goal. Occasionally they would do something with it, but strikers really want it played in front of them. Our midfield isn't capable of playing neat balls through and our crossing today was woeful. I really hope Moyes takes note and has our wide players practising crossing and corners for the next few weeks.

It's part of Moyes weakness - he's lily livered - age over youth all day long even if the older pro is having a "mare" of a time. He had Cahill playing far too long I suspect he defers to senior pros can't imagine him saying to Johnny "I'm putting Duffy in".

Pointless having talented youngsters at this club.

I nearly crashed into Heitinga on the way to the Goodison today. I wish I had done now.

Lescott was the last LB to score twice for us in 2007 and Vs Villa. we are mostly always good at fighting back.

The real problem is The Team and Moyes are mostly STILL crap at the Plan A that needs us to fight back in the first place.

I know it's early but this season could be a copy of 04-05, we start off with a hiss and a roar in the 1st half and fade in the 2nd half, just limping over the line for 4th.

We will, on the back of this performance and others, have to consider ourselves very lucky indeed to limp over into 4th this season.

MOB? I hear Moyes himself is thinking of joining up.

Would Spurs or Arsenal be limping too if they were to qualify? Or is it an all out scrap for CL places being fought each and every game by 4 very good teams in a very competitive league?

Goodison must be having one of the worst clean sheet records in its history, just 2 this season in the PL and one against mighty Leyton Orient. In a season when goals have come more regularly than we have been used to at Goodison we sill can't find a way of winning the games against seemingly inferior opposition.

We have picked up 18 points away and just 24 at home
Although there are only 4 points between 3rd place and ourselves, not many of us really believe that we can somehow achieve a CL place.

How many Reading's Birmingham's Bolton's etc will it take for DM to realise that giving the 'big boys' a game means nothing if you can't beat the so-called inferior sides in the league. We will probably do our usual at OT, Chelsea, Arsenal etc and get a good performance from the team but very few points, meanwhile the likes of Reading and QPR at home will have us all chewing our fingernails.

After 11 years you would think that the manager would have noticed these things and attempted to put them right, mind you, given today's strange defensive starting line-up, it seems that he adds to the mystery rather than solving it.

I agree Moyes should use other players more but this is a familiar cry when things aren't going to plan. I'd like to see Duffy and others used more but I really don't think this will make a difference in terms of results. We're fifth, can anyone really see an eleven to get us higher than this? Likewise Moyes has other weaknesses but none of these are terminal, his core management is sound, which is why we are pretty consistent.

The problem is we don't have enough good players. BK has seen to that. In the pub after the game there was a sense of resignation -Criticism of Moyes for Heitingas selection, but more about what we are missing as a club. Yep we should still have won and we will play better this season.. But can we really, seriously, challenge the teams around us with our squad?

Was Fer really the only transfer option? Surely there were other players in world football that we could have gone in for. I've got a bad feeling we're gonna miss out again on a CL place which could mean players like Baines and Fellaini leaving the club as they are both too good to not be playing Champions League football – especially Baines who is simply top draw.

To answer your question. When wil DMs teams come of age. Maybe this really is as good as it gets? The glass ceiling seems insurmountable at the moment.

I fuckin hate being an also ran, but I'm fairly certain of what (or rather, who) is stopping us progressing

A couple new faces today would have been a real boost.

I wouldn't mind betting he could have done a job at full back leaving Jags in the centre, Johnny just hasn't been at the races this year dreadfully out of form.

Moyes gets away with these decisions in the league because there's always another day and in truth no-one really believes CL is a goer.

7th to 10th or "top half challenging for europe" as it's trumpeted keeps him, Bill and co in clover - crap it is.

We did limp over the 4th line in 04-05

We will be lucky to limp over it again this season.

Which doen't mean that it isn't an all out scrap in a competitive league; and if it is as you say an all out scrap any one who does finish 4th may well limp / drag / stumble over the line in the manner of rubberlegged marathon runners.

I also, having no great admiration for the FSW hearby extent the line to 3rd and include Chelsea in it...but not the RS

Moyes does not trust young players he will pick an experience pro over them every time, no matter how crap the pro is playing. Duffy should have been give a chance this season at times but he hasn't. Part of Moyes weakness is his reactive nature, instead of picking his best team he changes it to deal with the other teams strengths. So we don't want Neville up against a pacy left midfielder. Seriously against a team like Villa pick your best team and let them worry about you.

The centre half partnership is arguably the most important one in the team, you shouldn't mess around with it unless you have to. Today we didn't have to, we could have played either Neville or Oveido at right back, either one would have been an improvement on breaking up the Jags/Distin partnership.

Not the first comment he's made about lack of game time. He's said previously that he's tried to get out on loan. His lack of pace is a real issue for me...but he does deserve a shot.

I don't think bringing other squad players in will make a real difference because I don't think theyre good enough. This reflects our core weakness- enough quality players. Again I'm more than happy to bee proved wrong. The way I see it we have a good team when everyone is fit and on form, and a manager who generally gets the best out of them. Today we had too many players off colour.

Ok we're challenging, but were hanging in their, just on the periphery. Maybe I should be more positive , but it felt pretty rough today.

Im sure it'll all look a good deal better by about Tuesday!

I don't think the shambolic transfer window helped moral either. The team and the fans were flat as a pancake and who could blame them?

That was a must win game today but we blew it. I don't think CL is even a possibility after that. Jesus, imagine the fear in Moyes if we had to play a decent side to qualify? Moyes would crap his undies!

You slip in Arsenal and Spurs have bigger fan bases than us - you cheeky potato.

They don't have fans... they have people who call in en route to cello lessons for the kids.

Truth of it now is that a CL place will probably require a win at White hart lane and maybe another win at either Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge, Emirates or (hopefully) Analfield.

Heitinga was CRAP!!!!!

People complain about team selection but we have no alternatives. My only suggestion would have been to play Duffy instead of Heitinga or keep Jags and Distin together and play Neville or Oviedo at right back. They are our only alternatives at this stage.

We have used less players so far than any other side and that is why Pienaar and Osman are looking jaded we have no alternatives of quality.

None of the above reasons are the fault of the manager, its the fault of the board and our scouting system who have not found any good youngsters. That is why we bought Stones at the last minute.

I have said before that if Fer had been scouted and watched for months as reported. WHY did we wait until the end of the transfer window to bid for him? If we had brought the lad over for a medical a few weeks ago we would have had more time to bid for alternatives...

All the chatter about team selection is nonsense, the manager has the weakest bench in the division and realistically he only has 14 or 15 players to pick from. If Gueye had not gone on loan, he would have been on the bench!!! FACT!!!

Didn't realise the great man was advising Davey on team selection though.

Will Moyes grasp the nettle, and make it a clean sweep of out of form favourites.

Has he the 'Stones'?

Would it help if he was called Joao Stoniniho.

Just what our our options? Hibbo, Coleman, injured, Neville, crap at the best of times recently and I don't think his knee is full fit. Jags? not if it means Johnny H. Ovideo...

If Moyes changes anything it will be Ovideo or maybe rush Coleman back in too quick.

Not many options.

It means going to grounds we have never won at, and throw caution to the wind. I don't see what he has to lose to be honest, we are not expected to win these games, and there are ready made excuses if we get beat.

Hate to break up the Heitinga chorus, but when your best player is as bad as Baines was today, somebody should mention it.

To those saying the teams about us in competition for fourth are also losing games or drawing them, so fucking what those are beyond our control and whats more even the more galling looking at lost opportunities to leapfrog them or at least close the gap down to goal difference.

There was a debate on here last year when Johnny won Player of the Year and some on here were saying he made Distin look good. I couldn't believe what I was reading, the way I put it was who would you rather have two Heitingas or two Distins? It's a no-brainer: Distin is strong in the air strong in the tackle and a strong runner; Heitinga is none of them. I'd say Hetinga's best features are he reads the game well and can hit a long range pass his problem is actually defending.

Even after saying all this I'd blame today's defeat on Moyes's for the fact he knows Heitinga's weaknesses hence the fact he's been out of favour most of season, but he still chose to play him up against one of the most dangerous and powerful centre forwards in the Prem. I know his options were limited but he could of played Duffy who impressed last year or played Oviedo at full back I don't expect Heitinga to play again for Everton in the Prem.

Although I blame the manager not JH.

After his mistake brought West Brom back into the game the other night a large number of us said he should not play CB again.

If Duffy Oviedo Stones or Neville (if fit) are not better options than a player whose confidence is totally shot then I should give up watching football.

But for JH and some debatable offside decisions we should have won this game comfortably.

Moyes has to shoulder a lot of the blame because I hate his love of certain players who can do no wrong and get picked regardless, we had it with Cahill and now its JH, Neville and Osman!!! Why do we buy talented players like Oviedo, Kennedy, Vellios when he is just going to take the piss out of them????

With the funds made available to Moyes we are never going to finish in the top 4, we are supposedly the 21st richest club in the world, we have the most millionaires on a board of any team yet we are constantly saying we are skint!!! Somebody somewhere is seriously taking the piss!!! We need Kenwright and his hangers-on to do one ASAP and get someone in who will give Martinez some money to get us up where we belong!!!!!

Okay, he may not sustain it but at the moment he looks well suited to the English game and at 23 has played something like 220 appearances.

Groundhog Poor Plan A to start with

Groundhog selections.

Groundhog early daft goal given away.

Groundhog Fightback to be sure.

Groundgog Game

Groundhog Result

Groundhog Season

Every time I've seen the kid play I've thought he's looked very good. He never seems to get a chance. Today was begging form it IMO. IF (and this is highly debatable) you're gonna have Jags at RB and the CB is having a horrid game, why not give the kid a chance?

I know Moyes sees him every day in practice - yadda yadda. He just can't get any time and it has to hurt his development.

Sir Alex always seems to be able to run out younger kids here and there for a meaningful 30 minutes. Moyes gives our kids 4 minute cameos at the 88th minute and it's frustrating as hell.

Poor Duffy.

I know some on here claim it all ain't about cash but facts speak for themselves as cash has made shitty clubs like chelski and city so successful. Yep moyes ain't perfect yep he makes mistakes but back to my point we're 5th with no investment for years so take a little satisfaction and also enjoy watching, at times, some great football.

Sorry Davey but Jags at RB at Johnny at centre against Benteke was, well, your worst decision since you picked reserve teams at Leeds and the Shite. It happens, you got it wrong and I think you get it right, a lot. But this defeat had bugger all to do with disappointing deadline day or a small squad. It was just a huge tactical mess coupled with one of the worst CB displays from JH you will see in a very long time.

I am struggling to believe what I'm reading here though about other aspects of our performance. We were strong going forward all the game. Better than that in fact, we battered them having vastly the best of possession, shots at goal, on target, corners. True, we didn't make the corners count as we should until the end. They made five good chances and scored three and worked their socks off and credit to them for that. I thought Felli was far better than just that exceptional last 20 mins.

Still, the general feeling is one of disappointment and those two lost points will cost us in the hunt for fourth place. Next week it's Man Utd and I'm hoping that if Coleman and Hibbo are still missing (likely) then the much maligned skipper needs to start at right back and, controversially I guess, I'd play Oviedo alongside Gibson, and give Osman a rest....won't happen will it but he's played there before, adds defensive strength and can run with the ball and best of all.... he has a good cross in him. We have to have Jags and Distin back together and frankly I'd rather risk Duffy on the bench and drop Johnny entirely, he was so bad today it simply defies description and frankly I think he cost us all three goals.

You just somehow know we are going to have a shite 2nd half to the season, with Moyes making baffling selections, the Shite wiping the floor with us at their gaffe and the usual exit in the FA Cup just when you think me might have a squeak at winning it.

8th is it then.

Duffy has always seemed confident and strong on the ball and looks to pass the ball out of defence.

On Football First Fellaini looked like he was getting involved from the off though I haven't watched the second half yet (choosing to see the coverage and analysis on MotD first).

Haven't worked out exactly what the formation was supposed to be. On Wednesday Fellaini was pushing forward from the back quite late on in the moves, whereas today he was vacating that area quite quickly which gave them opportunities to break quite easily if we lost the ball as Ossie and Gibson couldn't fill in as effectively.

Their first was ridiculous and for their second Heitinga should have been right next to Agbonglahor and jumping with him. Their third was clearly offside though (ignored in the MotD analysis) and I am not sure what he could have done once Benteke was goal-side with that superb delivery.

And did you see how far off target he was on those two 90th-minute corners immediately before Fellaini's goal? One was ten yards beyond everybody and the other was drilled into the front defender's forehead.

Pienaar badly missed some passes today too, but we expect that from him... his passing has been wildly inaccurate over the past dozen games or so. From Bainesy, we expect far better, and almost always get it.

Whatever he had for breakfast today, somebody should tell his wife never to make it again. We're going to need the normal superstar Bainesy for Old Trafford.

Our final ball has often been a problem this season with, for me, Jelavic having been lambasted at times when the delivery hasn't really helped. Not saying he hasn't been off form for a long time, just that he has been overly criticised at times.

If Moyes can claim credit when a sub somehow works out (JH against Bolton) then he can cop criticism when he clearly gets it wrong.

We had one senior right back fit and he was on the bench. Madness.

So why wouldn't Distin, the center half with the most recovery speed on our team be the one marking Benteke? It's common sense man. Just like Oviedo & Naismith out wide. Just like Naismith/Anichebe/Naismith are not wingers.

Moyes is an excellent manager in the transfer market when given the funds, a brilliant coach, and a terrific motivator. His main weakness is assigning players roles that don't necessarily fit them or giving a player a role that maybe someone else on the team is better equipped to handle. I think today was a prime example of that.

Doesn't make him a bad manager. He's excellent. But objectively speaking, I think you have to acknowledge this. Makes watching the games easier.

For instance, one free kick in the second half was absolutely bang on the money and if Fellaini hadn't been man-handled it would have fallen right on his nut. I am surprised we didn't appeal for a penalty though Fellaini was left on the ground after colliding with the keeper.

The corner in the dying minutes you claim was 10 yards over-hit was intended to be a back post one from its trajectory and was perhaps 1 yard too far for Jags, who actually would have been better leaving it for Naismith who was waiting for it.

There were other occasions where his delivery only required a player to be really attacking the danger area for it to lead to something.

Not saying he was up to his usual standard but to say his first/ only good delivery was for Fellaini's second goal is stretching it too far.

And Neville is a crap footballer...in the sense that im sure there are a lot of conference players with better passing ability. But he does hold his position, he does fill in where he should, and he can motivate. It is too easy to forget that, and too easy to underestimate the effects of that on the team. Today we were left far too exposed...more exposed than I've seen us all season in parts of that match, and part of that goes down to the absence of Neville imo (although Gibson was unusually ineffective, presumably before of lacking match fitness/sharpness).

I also thought Baines delivery was poor, in view of his usually fantastic technique, and he shouldn't have tried to play offside at the start of the second half (Almost leading to a third goal before their third goal for...Weimann was it?). But I don't agree that he was terrible...I think we are spoilt with his level of deliveries, and today he was less consistent than normal.

I also liked the look of Oviedo when he came on...but honestly, I'm worried he is too lightweight. Pienaar is small, but very strong...whereas Oviedo looks like he hasn't learnt to protect the ball yet.

This bring them in slowly argument with the young kids - I understand it.

But my Lord Moyes has a snail's pace bringing on youngsters and Gavin is spot on when he says Moyes only does it when forced, then shuts off the spicket.

I remember Coleman's game perfectly. Shined. Then benched. And Duffy - I can't remember the opponent offhand but he played in the back with Heitinga (irony!) and had a great game and hasn't seen the light of day since. Coleman finally busted through thanks to injuries and IMO is a darn good little player. Duffy seems to have all the tools so I guess he'll have to wait to see any meaningful time until Jags and Distin get hurt.

Just don't get it.

Hell Baines couldn't even get a game when he came from Bolton! Anyone remember that?

If guys are off form, shoot a rocket in their ass, bench them, and throw one of these young guys out there to give them a shot and create some competition of places.

I really do like Moyes, but his attitude towards the younger players baffles sometimes.

This is my message to you, Neville: I do not ever want see you in the royal blue jersey of Everton. Never again. Ja, you may have played for Man Utd, but that means nothing to me. Goodbye forever!

Beats

Jag/Heitinga/Distin/Baines

Neville might not be everyone's cup of tea but he IS a right back. And it's not like he's never played against anyone with pace before - most wingers have a bit.

You can't weaken 2 of your 4 defensive positions and hope for the best.

Someone above says Moyes always picks his favourites no matter what? Heitinga has hardly played this season, so what's that about?

Moyes got it wrong with Heitinga but that doesn't excuse the shit performances by Howard and Pienaar.

He came from Wigan, you plank!

Howard = poor
Pienaar = poor
Osman = poor

and it took 60 mins for Felli to get into stride and prove what a great player he can be

JH played his worst game ever for EFC but don't forget how poorly others played.

He has bags of energy though and can see a pass so hopefully he'll grow into the premier league.

Lots of questions have been asked by the TW crew and the tactic analysts have all given their two pence worth, but at the end of the day we have to believe that the team Moyes sends onto the pitch is best team we have available. Posters like Andy Crooks want to see Duffy in the first 11; however, Moyes has the boy on the bench so Moyes is obviously aware of how good he is. A world cup finalist, a Dutch international, player of the season last year against Duffy, who has spent most of his days at Donacaster. That vote was only going to go one way – however, will Andy Crooks get his day? JH went was dragged off yesterday for a left footer to play at RB, you could see that Moyes was pissed. Is that the last we will see of JH at GP wearing the Chang shirt? I do believe that Jogging back with the Villa forward, who then powers in their first goal does not cut it with Moyes, and you know what, when was the last time JH was booked? Think he had 7 yellows and 1 red last season, yet no cards this season, not a single yellow to his name. For their first goal he had plenty of opportunity to take a yellow, but he chose to let the villa boy out muscle him.

We have to believe that the away games against Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal, United and that fucking lot across the park will be similar to the games at GP, where we gave them all a good game and really should have won all 5 games not just two. For me it is still very much game on.

James Bourne - fan base, Spurs, bigger than us. Please.

Mike Gaynes – spot on regarding Baines, who played like a winger yesterday (a shite one at that) giving Distin twice the work-load.

30 seconds before Villa's 3rd Howard could have caught a ball that was 2 yards from his goalline but instead he has Distin panicking like fuck to head it straight back to the opponents without a Villa shirt in sight. The first goal Benteke didn't even have to lean on Heitinga who looked like he was running in concrete and thats in the first minute and that brainless fucker Jageilka ive never seen a player who does not want the ball and does not know what to do with it.

There not the only ones either Osman has been total shite for weeks, Gibson was poor yeaterday with Mirralles possibly the worst player on the pitch. How Moyes can say we played well is as deluded as thinking we will finish fourth.

If Baines and Piennar don't fire we are fucked, even Felliani yesterday until his 2 late goals offered very little. Vic was my MOM and he tailed off second half mainly due to the piss poor service given. Alan Shearer said the other day defences are awfull, I would still fancy him to bag 15 a season against some of the shite in the Prem.

Whether it will help or hinder us in the cup game, I don't know. I did read that Wabara, the guy who scored with a header in their superb victory against The Others, has now moved on. He was on loan from Man City, but he's gone on loan somewhere else. Anything that weakens their team is a big plus for us. Listen to me, worrying about Oldham!

If West Brom beat Spurs 3-0 today, we're back in a Champions League place! Improbably, but possible.

More realistically, I see no reason at all why we can't finish the season in the top 4. That's not because we are playing well ourselves, it's because our rivals are just as flaky as us at the moment. Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and Lpoo are all struggling to find consistent good form. As things stand, it's wide open. There are 13 games left and it's all to play for.

'Distin,Heitinga and Jageilka are 3 of the poorest defenders in the Prem add that to a goalkeeper who is concreted to the goalline and what you get is big trouble with needing to score 2 and 3 goals a game which becomes impossible.'

Distin and Jags are poor defenders...you are off your rocker. Even after yesterday, we've conceded 30 goals, which is the joint sixth best in the division, and Chelski, who have the second best defence in the league, have conceded 27 goals. Do you even watch other teams play football? or understand what constitutes a bad defender? Distin and Jags are certainly not bad defenders...and they have not played badly this season. Heitinga has, but they certainly haven't.

And Heitinga is not a bad defender...but his confidence has gone, and he doesn't suit our system. In a deep defensive formation, aka the Everton of last season, Heitinga is a great defender. In an attacking formation, where Heitinga will be left one on one on occasions, he is a poor defender, aka the Holland of the Euros, or the Everton of this season. Duffy hasn't the right ability to play CB with this build either...(esp as the centre backs are left exposed far too often, and rely on pace/last ditch tacking). We need Jags and Distin at the back, with a right back at right back, and we should have brought in a DM in Jan. Given that Coleman and Hibbert are out, and Stones didn't come in until Thursday, we were completely out of options for Saturday. There is no way in hell we can expect an 18 year old Championship right back to come into a Prem first 11 without training and start. We did what a did yesterday for a reason...the only amendment I would have preferred was Jags central, and Heitinga right back, as Heitinga has functioned as a makeshift RB in the past, and Jags would have dealt with Benteke better.

Exactly as they were when we last spoke

I watchd MOTD last night (with the sound down as I fear I'd want to kill everyone if I listen to the resident experts) . Arsenal scored a winner with about ten minutes to go, and the close up of the crown showed they were just about breaking into polite applause. If we'd have got a winner yesterday the roof would have caved in!

We are handicapped by a 'safety first', tactically inept manager and a seemingly equally inept medical and backroom coaching staff, just look at all the continual long-term repetitive injuries we have – especially regarding Coleman, Mirallas and Gibson.

Just think what Everton could achieve with a motivational tactically aware manager.

Under no circumstances must you chop and change your central defensive pairing unless through injury. It's a cardinal sin in the football world. Playing Jags at right back was a retarded move and unsettled the whole team.

Do not keep faith in out-of-form players, regardless of their experience or standing in the club. It's gross incompetence. Osman has played way too many games and should've been dropped months ago. When was his last half-decent shift?

Do not adhere to the rigid formations and tactics, game-in & game-out, as different opponents require different tactics and formations. One up-front at home to the likes of Villa is a disgrace and shows them far too much respect.

Why buy a player in the window that we wont play? Forget 'one for the future' — our future is here and now and we should be killing ourselves to make 3rd or 4th place in the Premier League. Futile as this may be, it's our only chance of having a future. A young right back will not help us one bit from the subs bench.

We will never get anywhere as a club/football team as long as our supporters blindly put up with this crap. We haven't had one comfortable win all season due to Moyes's tactics. Even when we won away at Villa and Swansea, we were under the cosh for long periods. Something is wrong with the set-up. Every game is a struggle and I can see us getting a real good hiding very soon if something's not done about it.

Apologies for quoting the fans of a rival team but this (from the BBC live text commentary) made me laugh...

Kyri in London on text via 81111: "As a Spurs fan I think we'll be absolutely fine for top four finish. Wait, other teams don't annually capitulate come February like we do? They have strikers you say? Oh..."

I tell you, we're all the same leaky boat at the moment - Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, Lpool and us. It's a question of who can swim to shore quickest!

It was like midnight over here....

Point is still valid, plank or not, and Lescott may of been in form, but he was being played out of position in favor of Baines. Never seen Moyes do that before....

Holtby looks the real deal. The bastard.

That's 16 for the season for the chimp and Holtby looks like assured to me, another one we missed out on thanks to that mingebag Kenshite and chums.

Fantastic reasoning though... because it was not publicised that we made an offer to Holtby and Sissoko, and because they must be good players after two matches, we can't possibly have made an offer for a more expensive player... Head... Brick Wall!!

And Jamie, Baines became in a fixture in his second season for us... he has matured over that period, and become a truly world class (imo) player in the last couple of seasons. He wasn't the Baines of today when he signed from Wigan. He also made 22 appearances in his first season for us... and started some matches. I don't see where your argument is going; we had a good defence then, we eased him in, and turned Baines into one of the best left backs in the world.

And Yes Tony... never change central defenders. Because Man Utd certainty haven't moved them about... Man City haven't swapped between four, nor Chelski. No, never change the centre-backs....

I also like how you so rigidly state that centre backs shouldn't be changed, but formations should be on a game by game basis... which football teams do that?! I mean Man City switch with a 3-5-2 sometimes, and that's caused them enough problems... sometimes Man Utd will revolve the way the second striker players, and where the wide men start from... but really? Do you think Football is that easy?

And your complaining about one up against Villa? We scored THREE goals. That wasn't the issue. Barcelona play one up... they don't swap to two because the team they are playing is considered worse than others. Chelski, also play one up, and they did alright against Villa... we use attacking wide men, and Fellaini, usually in an advanced position... it's not as simple as one up!

I don't know how you can continue to look at things so so simplistically. Do you work for TalkSport?

I think I get less worried prior to playing a top 5 side than I do a bottom 5. So now it's Wigan, QPR, Reading and Villa this season alone. Hardly the cream of the crop are they?

Moyes showed his true colours in 2005, when comfortably in the top four after a good half season he guided us to three wins in the second half and some abominable losses and/or draws to relegation fodder, scraping in to the top four due to Liverpool losing some aweful games, with a negative goal difference to boot. Seriously, anyone can be motivated enough to play for a draw against Man Utd or a rich-as-shit City, but a good motivator gets his team up for the games against Reading, QPR, Villa, etc.

Not attempting a conspiracy theory, Jim, just the musing of a puzzled fan as to why, if we had £9m to spend on a player, Fer, who has been on our radar for some time, according to the media, and Moyes, we didn't have a Plan B, C., D all the way to Z? I just don't get it. We all assumed that we have no money (as people like to add at the end of each statement). Fact.

We tried to buy Vadis on loan. But somehow we ferked up the paper work. So, when we get the opportunity to get Vadis again, we don't bother. Instead, we try to sign Fer for more money than any of us thought possible, but, yet again, the deal flounders on the rocks of incompetence.

Other players, like Holtby, who was proclaiming his love for Everton with a regularity that would impress a Swiss watchmaker, and Sissoko were clearly available for a lot less money. I just wonder why no attempt was made to sign them. Fair enough, other clubs are in the market for midfielders but none were interested in Fer? Something just doesn't seem right, Jim.

No they are not. Most games go to form some don't. Hence QPR winning at Chelsea, Wigan winning at Spurs or Villa winning at Liverpool. Some believe we should win every game and if we don't it is the end of the world. Yesterday was a big disappointment but ultimately it is about 38 games.

Worrying about the bottom 5 more than the top 5 is clearly an irrational thing to do but there is no accounting for what you feel in your water.

It's not unusual for deals to break down late so why conduct business when you've got no chance of looking elsewhere if things go wrong.

My water tells me that's 9 points dropped against the bottom four teams!

Tommy Gravesen wasn't just playing well that season, he was the best centre midfield in the league at the time. For a short period at the end of the previous season and the first half of the 05 season he was magnificent - the proof? We were flying, and then Real Madrid came in for him. I nearly wept.

There are bigger legends and over a carreer many better players than Tommy at Everton, but I've never seen a blues midfielder dominate games the way he did over that half a season.

When he lost him in January we lost our driving force, enforcer, talisman and all round top dog. We did well to stay fourth, so credit to Moyes and the team for that. I'll say it again, we finished fourth. I'd take that now please.

Should Clarke quit management as well getting beat today by spurs with no strikers?

Should all the mangers quit who we beat when we had no strikers playing Fellaini and Cahill up front?

Get real Roman

I've read some ridiculous words on this forum; but you've just won the prize with your...

"Get real Roman"...indeed!

Or 9 points gained, that's a new take on the glass half full thing.

So now even if Moyes won the FA cup that would not be good enough?! Ridiculous.

I don't know whether he's joking or he's just a .................... I don't know which word describes him best.

Ian, how many of the managers that lost to us when we had Cahill up front are still at that club?

And yes, how WBA didn't get anything from that game today is a mystery, yet, we have a better squad than them, and I don't give a shit about them. It's Everton I love, and if a manager of 11 years with the talented squad that Moyes has can't beat a team without a recognised senior striker, then he is not worth a toss.

They will Adebayor back from Africa not to mention Dempsey and Demebele who are both capable of playing up front.

Seems a bit much to demand that we beat Spurs (a team now very close to 3rd) on their home patch.

And Ray...we don't know if we went for Vadis again...we don't known if Bruge wanted to let him go again. Holtby may have talked about us in the press...but he also talked about Spurs and other teams. Just as Falcao apparently dreams about playing for pretty much every major team he is linked with. I don't know why we didn't seem to have a replacement for Fer...or why we tried to sign him so late, but my guess is that we were negotiating for him for sometime, and were fucked when his knee injury showed up. I expect we tried to sign another midfielder, but couldn't, and so switched our attentions to another area where we were weak, i.e up front.

But let me ask you something...do you think we would have agreed a deal worth over 8million for a midfielder, and got him to come over for a medical, and then bullshited about that medical to avoid paying for him, when not even the most optimistic Everton fan expected us to spend that kind of money?

And Steavey, the difference will be 6 points, not 7, And maybe we will lose and Spurs win...but then Spurs might lose to West Ham and Arsenal, and we might beat Norwich and Reading. Who knows...but I'm not going to give up fourth if the difference is six points in a week's time, and any real Everton fan won't.

The Toures are heading back to Man City as they've been knocked out in the AFCON Cup, Adebayor is still in it for now.

I have bowed to no one in pointing out Moyes's faults over the years but if he wins the FA cup he will deserve plenty of praise. Is there any Evertonian who doesn't fan

We are the bookies outsiders for a CL place and the fact that we are in contention owes mostly to David Moyes and the team he has built.

"It's Everton I love, and if a manager of 11 years with the talented squad that Moyes has can't beat a team without a recognised senior striker, then he is not worth a toss."

And you have been an Everton supporter how long?

Odd decision with Milner, Barry, Garcia, all poor, leaving nasri, Sinclair, tevez on the bench.

Aguero just scored a great goal = 2-2!

Well if you're happy with that then you are easily satisfied pal!
"9 points gained" against teams in dismal form hardly flies in the face of my argument. Anyway, I think we are going round in circles. Agree to disagree.

Does Moyes not get any recognition, I suppose it is inspite of Moyes or maybe its all down to Blue Bill.

The blunt answer is no, but it doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility that with time running our and options limited we put a bid in for a lad with the full intention of talking up a problem we already knew about in order to try to negotiate better terms.

The big questions are were did the money come from and when did it become available. Assuming we aren't really that incompetent, it must have come fairly late in the window and maybe it wasn't in the form of an interest free / low interest loan from one of our wealthy board members. if it was in the form of a short-term high interest loan then it becomes more understandable that BK would have wanted to pay out as little as possible until the new TV money turns up.

That doesn't get him off the hook though. Again assuming that paying back a short-term high interest loan for the full amount offered would have been manageable even if a little painful, then it is still a failure not to use that money for the purpose it was sought for (to boost our chances of CL qualification and conceivably secure the continued services of our manager and important players).

It doesn't change the fact that the deals that the manager initially talked about (loans supposedly funded with the little money that was available from the start) weren't locked up early for some extra security, or the long-term 'bread and butter' deals that the club will increasingly have to rely on (identifying young talent and bringing them in in the hope that they will fulfil their potential or at least recoup the outlay if they fail to make the grade) were apparently ignored in favour of chasing increasingly unlikely targets.

Now we have ITK comments about the club pursuing 6 deals right through until the deadline hour (a case of too MUCH, too late???) or that the lad had dodgy substances in body fluids taken during the medical (but we were still prepared to take him???). Of course these could just be no-marks making out they are more important than they are, but the fact that both are reputed to come from club sources just adds to the general idea that the club may be prepared to try to manipulate public opinion in it's favour by spinning stories when they should be making clear statements on events.

Fast forward a season and JH is once again having to split his time between Dancing on Ice and Everton... seems to me he is distracted and should make up his mind.

So, come on, Jason — I mean, Johnny — skating or football? You can't have both.

Anyway, Mockford (#509): 'Yesterday was a big disappointment but ultimately it is about 38 games.' Dear Lord, this is breathtaking. ONE 'big disappointment' but don't worry, keep yer 'air on, Mob, it's about 38 games. So, Mockford, 12 out of 25 games drawn, but, 'ang on and keep yer 'air on, it's about 38 games. Absurd, Mockford, wholly absurd.

Let's reverse things shall we: it's only one game and my oh my what a brave comeback (rather than a pathetic home draw – in Mock-speak, it's a point gained), and so what about all the other games Mocky, all those points dropped, mistakes made, motivation on holiday? Oh there's good old chirpy cheery pie and mash please, good al 'Arry on the box saying we need to turn draws into wins: ring any bells, Mockford, Allaker, Hudson???????

And then the priceless gem that I thought even the Mock-Moyes-man could never have the audacity to dream up. We haven't dropped points against the bottom 3 you silly silly people who don't get it, we have GAINED the points we won from them. That, my friends, is the true face of mediocrity.

I don't usually agree with Pete Barry's sometimes audacious statements in, as it were, opposition: he can be the other side of the coin to Mockford's drivel. But I do agree with him that one of the reasons for us being in the position we are in is the general below par performances of those around us.

Now, I'm not saying for one second that we haven't contributed to our position (not least with those 12 out of 25 draws, eh Mockford), but it has to be said that this is not the highest quality of Premier League seasons: look at the fortunes of English 'top' clubs in the Champs League, for instance (and well worth a bet that not one of them will make it to the next round); look at Citeh this season, well below part but still 2nd; unpredictable Arse, Chelski, Spuds; no-one outside the top 2 seeming to seize the initiative, though the Spuds look worryingly like they might be on a run.

We've done well to be where we are but we have been lucky too with draws pulling up that those around us have not been more consistent. Heresy, I know: I for one can see the Shite finishing above us this season, I really can.

That's if they are talking about the momentum lost during the season Gravesen left rather than momentum lost for the next season.

Someone feeling a little tired and emotional then. Why is it absurd to point out it is 38 games that determine the outcome of a season? What would we expect our points tally in a season against the bottom four teams?

Now I know in Paul Ferry land we should be winning every single game... and if we don't, well that just proves Moyes is shit, etc – and anyone who takes anything less is accepting mediocrity etc etc etc. However, in the real world, 16 out of 24 is probably a pretty good tally and puts you in the 60-70 point bracket. My guess this year is we will take 15 with home games to QPR and Reading to come but I could easily be wrong and if I am then our performances against the bottom 4 will have cost us.

The rest of your, how shall I best describe it, bilious rant is pretty pointless stuff. We are only 5th (yes, let's just remind ourselves) because the teams around us are shit. So they're not rolling all the other teams over then.

You then manage to put the tin hat on it by bringing on the star witness for the prosecution, the one and only Pete Barry... 'nuff said.

Could you be a little more clear as to the shite I have been talking in the face of a hatful of eveidence? Evidence to show what exactly?

I don't know where to start so I will not, except you don't accept that we are 5th partly because of those around us? Go to the back of class.

Where do I say that I expect us to win every game? Don't put words in my mouth. Your glossy interpretations of the Villa result and the 12 out of 25 draws are not shared, I suspect, by the vast majority of Evertonians. And your attitude to our performances against the bottom rungs are, as I said, breathless. But you never responded to any of those points, did you.

Ian: by 'evidence' I meant the conflicting/qualifying stuff that suggests that all is not as well in L4 as the minority like GM with their hopeless honey-tongued optimism/blinkered loyalism suggest.

For example: 12 out of 25 draws, an awful window, a truly appalling result against basement Villa (dressed up as Agincourt by Mockford), truly awful draws against other teams we ought to have put to bed dressed up as, "Hey, we're 5th aren't we?" by Mockford et al, deeply felt concerns about some so-called 'important' players (Howard/Johnny to name two), some heartfelt concerns about starting 11s and tactics (please don't trot out the "What has he got to play with?" card). Dear Lord, we can add the pitch to the list of worries — at least the never-wrong Moysey did.

I could go on.

"Man City RESCUE a draw against Liverpool"

"Everton SCRAPE a draw against bottom-of-the-table Aston Villa"

Which says it all really about how Dire Dour Davey has Everton performing.

Ian, I've constantly praised Moyes for his ability to put a squad of good players together on no budget. That is what he's good at. What I don't think he is good at is motivating a team that clearly needs it. How many games/points have we dropped to terrible teams, teams that have just been promoted, or teams that are about to be relegated? I'll tell you it's a lot. If everyone had to give recognition for everything in every post we'd be here all day.

More classic bluster and hyperbole in your inimitable style. Not for the first time I see you claiming people ' put words in your mouth' then spend your post doing that to me.
'We are 5th partly because of those around us' , We are 5th wholly because of those around us. Our position is relative and if there was no one around us we wouldn't have a position. The points we have after 25 games would nearly always have us in a similar position.
But semantics aside let me try and get to the nub of what is obviously irking you. Saturday was a poor result, you would expect us always to get three points against a team of Villa's defensive abilities. We didn't, because of a poor defensive performance especially by Heitinga. I think he was the wrong choice, I would have gone with Neville at right back. Do I think it was 'Agincourt' ( words in mouth time) absolutely not. We fought back well but quite frankly we shouldn't have put ourselves in the position in the first place.
I guess that's about as far as we will agree ( Neville's inclusion aside) but I don't see it as the end of the world. Football is like that, sometimes results don't go your way but you have to move on, it's we're you finish come May that matters. Saturdays result makes it harder to finish Top 4, we are going to have to go and beat some of the teams around us but unlike most seasons we are still in the position of being able to do so.

BUT I would say (and no doubt messrs Rathbone etc would disagree) that that is in large part down to the £12m they were able to splash on Sturridge, not to mention the £23m they spent on ratface.

The worrying thing is that this is classic Moyes modus operandi and he repeats mistakes even after over a decade at the helm of playing off form players when faced with only a younger alternative.

So not Davey Moyes then — there's a surprise............ NOT!!!!!

I'm flattered that whilst taking a dubious curtain-call you felt the need to invite me onto the thread...

"Oh dear! A 3-3 draw...I must avoid ToffeeWeb..." ..you insinuate....when in fact I did comment on the game - THREE TIMES, on another thread.

(Note to self: Must work harder on my 'hiding,' skills).

What's the point in debating with you? You're clearly irrational, far too emotional, and you exhibit an extreme level of hatred for Phil Neville..

You never offer Moyes any credit, You can't frame an argument in a civil manner, your posts are utterly charmless, and you freak-out even when we win!

Question: If David Moyes has gotten Everton into fifth place in the Premier League, then just how bad are the other 87 managers below him in English football..?

And, more to the point, what Bill and the board don't (put in).

What says more about Davey and the bigger picture about Everton and Liverpool's results against Man City and Villa is the fact that we got more points than Liverpool this season from those fixtures, lets not forget we also got a point off Man City and we beat Villa at their place and didnt lose to them this season like the RS did.

I think It shows Moyes is managing to motivate his player better against the top teams but some of the will to win might be lost against the lower teams. The players are not machines, they cannot play to 100% every game especially when you have such a small squad, and it doesn’t help when players like Heitinga are giving goals away so easily and players like Jelly and Osman are missing such clear cut chancers.

Moyes cant be blamed for the individual mistakes made by the players. You will say he picks the players which is a fair point, but he hasn’t always had many other options. Of course he has made mistakes but I believe he makes less mistakes than most of the other managers and as I said to Paul, I would rather look at the positives than the negatives and Moyes definitely has far more positives than negatives.

This also caught my eye: http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11671/8467240/Barnsley-boss-David-Flitcroft-left-numb-by-John-Stones-departure

Hope it's true.

One sad thing though - why is there a quite constant reference to those fucking twats across the park. Why? If they are playing good who fucking cares. And we all know that if they ain't playng good footy and as they are the devils spawn then they will take more cash from the money printers in hell. Don't ask where the money comes from - it's just there. For me, no matter how much I hated Moyes, Heitinga or the how the blues are playing I could never type "those lot will be above us soon".

And Paul or Pete Ferry you can't be serious about the current standard of EPL football - do you really think that slagging off the entire league will show how shit you think the blues are? Fucking sad!! Bottom line - we played shite, then got a hold of the ball and played a lot better, replaced Heitinga then we scored two deserved goals and drew the game. Yeah Villa!!, Yeah Heitinga!! - but Villa do have the players that are capable of scoring goals. Go and ask the those freaky fuckers across the park how they did against Villa.

I don't know how old you are Steavey and I do agree that the FA Cup seems to have slightly less meaning to the a lot of fans who don't remember much before 1992 but if you are going to make these statements have a quick read up on them first. There have been 6 doubles done in the premiership era and 2 teams have won the FA Cup and Champions League in the same season

True they press well and their forwards are quick, dangerous and cause problems (for what they cost and what they're paid, so they should).

Their defence however is, imo, cack. The crimson-gridded Carragher is slower than a tortoise with four wooden legs and the fact he was a shoe-in for yesterday's game suggests they're a long way off getting their back line sorted.

Johnson has ability but thinks he's Dave Thomas (one for the teenagers there) and the rest have 'absolutely nothing special' stamped all over them.

Stevie G lar scored a beaut yesterday and for the next couple of years, he will continue to get the occasional edge-of-the-box rasper like that which will keep his profile high (nb: especially if the opposition defence allow him that much time and space).

But if you believe what your eyes tell you (rather than what Sky would have you believe) you'll see him hit a lot of shit passes and see him do a lot of walking about the middle of the park doing nothing in particular.

Like the rest of us, he's getting slower and older.

I was accused last week (on TW) of being a pessimist and I didn't dispute it.

Moyes, BK, Elstone, Cameron, The Banks, Israel, Africa, Neville – all legitimate reasons for pessimism in my book.

However the future for them doesn't make me feel in the least pessimistic.

In terms of titles etc – a busted flush.

They had two ex-redshite gobshites, waxing lyrical about how good this new Liverpool side are.

In fact, I thought I had accidentally turned on the LFC TV channel. As if there is not enough of the twats in the papers, on TV and radio.

It's like Sky are willing them back into the top four – maybe they are – 'cos none of the fuckers ever go to a game.

And I guess you thought that lump of mash wood, world cup finalist & dutch international would fetch ... what about 5 to 7 million. Then Moyes would go out and buy an equally good CB and a forward and keep BK's banks happy to boot.

Now the mash wood only has 18 months left with us, so we can wipe out 6 months as the next window don't open till July, that leaves 12 months. The guy is on 60K a week so the best we are going to get for him is a freebie because whoever "buys" him pays off his last 12 months with us. Basically, Heitinga is worth jack shit.

Now what......

My point is, if the Shite did finish above us, those people who were laughing at them will be the first one's coming out with "Well, they could go out and buy Sturridge" etc. Also, I know the got the other lad Coutinho (I think) but he won't make any difference to them this season imo.

We are throwing away opportunities to take a lead in the race for 4th, and this season has been full of "What might have been" i.e. Reading, Norwich, now Villa to name a few.

Spurs having dropped points in mid-week have opened the gap on us and I think it will be tough to close it down, especially given our forthcoming set of fixtures.

The manager has also not , in my opinion, rotated our squad in the right areas. Key players such as Ossie and Peanuts are playing below their early season form (IMHO) and we have players in those positions who can do a job. Against Villa I think we could have won if we had kept the CB's intact, played JH or Oviedo at right back and brought in Vellios upfront, with perhaps Peanuts and Ossie sharing the game.

The manager has shot himself in the foot and 4th will be hard enough to achieve without throwing points away or missing opportunities to apply pressure on the Spuds.

Also, my memory is quite different to yours. The last five years at least, our record against the lower teams has been mixed at best. I think I could count on one hand how many teams we've taken six points off in that time frame. As you say, Moyes seems to be able to motivate the team to play well agains the big boys, but can't seem to get them up for the lower games. It isn't hard to motivate players of any sport or any level to play well against the biggest teams. Making them see the importance of turning up against the shit teams is where you'll find most managers working harder.

I don't know if it's part of Moyes personality showing in the team (for the record, I think in person he's probably a very modest, decent man). What you need against these lower teams like Villa, Reading, QPR, etc is an arrogance of "who do they think they are playing us on our turf" proportions. We've never had that, hence why there's only a couple of games in the last six or seven years where we've scored more than four goals in a game. 1-0s against League One/Two teams in the cups and draws against relegation fodder, in my opinion, represents the real David Moyes model.

His vernacular is starting to make me sick as well. He's such a passive, depressing bloke when he speaks. "We'll keep trying..." Oh, you keep trying, Davie Boy.

"Sometimes we don't need your best. Sometimes we need more than that" springs to mind when he says shit like that.

Again he was right with his substitutions and the crowd were wrong again, as we beat Bolton with the sub scoring the winner and we came from 3-1 down to beat Villa after the substitutions.

I personally wouldn't have started Heitinga against Villa as I thought he wouldn't be able to cope with Benteke's pace which sadly proved to be the case.

But I am sure Moyes could give valid reasons why he chose to play Heitinga in the middle. I am pretty sure had Coleman or Hibbert been fit Heitinga wouldn't have played. Managers sometimes get things wrong, their human, but to boo his decisions considering we have lost about 5 games in 40 odd games, I think we need to cut him some slack for God's sake.

Your recollections are far more rosey than mine, but that's what being a positive optimist brings you, I guess?

A whole new reality indeed.

Brian Waring – I don't believe for one minute he thought Heitinga would score the winner against Bolton but the fact that the substitution worked verifies the changes.

His substitution in the last few games worked, granted we wouldn't have been in that position if that shithouse wouldn't have been on the pitch and if Howard remembered he can come off his line sometimes.

Everton V Villarreal ???

Given a choice I'd pick the Istanbul CL match, just to shut the RS "Five Times" up, and the Clattenberg Derby, with Gerrard guilty of slippng Clattenberg a swift one.

I agree with you that I would have liked to have seen Neville at RB and Heitinga on the bench, I think we all could have guessed the outcome of Heitinga v Benteke but we don’t know the full circumstances and what has gone on behind the scenes.

Normally when these strange decisions have been made we find out that a player was injured or some other understandable reason. Someone on here said Neville was injured. For all we know maybe Heitinga has gone into Moyes office and asked for the chance to start the game and give him a chance to prove himself.

Moyes has to consider the value of the player and how long is left on his contract, he needs to try and keep people happy with in the squad, we just don’t know the whole story.

Many Evertonians, including me and Ian [788 above] immediately thought 'Villareal' when we heard today's news.

Ray, I reckon that night in Istanbul just didn't get enough attention to NOT be rigged. One of the three goals the Shite scored in that second half was legit. A dive for a penalty, and a linesman putting his flag up for offside in the build up to another which the ref ignored. Add to the Dudek came off his line in nearly every penalty.

Moyes explains why on soccernet, "It was the same way we set up against West Brom - it's what we have available because our right backs our injured," Moyes said. "We have limited alternatives.

"Phil Neville's not able to play three games in a week because of his knee. I knew when he played on Wednesday we'd struggle to get another game from him here, and I was concerned with Gabriel Agbonlahor's pace."

#800 "Vilarreal game is not the one under suspicion. The report I read stated it was a game played in england in the last 3 or 4 years. Not a game in spain 8 years ago."

Football corruption hasn't just happened between 2008 and 2011. The Villareal game may not have come up in this investigation but this is just the tip of the iceberg. It will lead to many, many more cases the deeper they dig.