Stones set for early return

I should think we’ll kick-on after the festive period – we’ve got some player in Garbutt and I hope his development won’t be stifled by Baines being untouchable.

WeÂ’ve also got Kone, Oviedo and Stones coming back amongst others. A couple of shrewd January signings and the only way is up.

As for Stones. Give him Xmas off, and he will be like a new signing come January.

Once he is fully fit, then is the time for him to get back into the centre of defence. He has to get some game time to bring him up to match fitness, so giving him periods in the game is better than resting him and then throwing him on for the full 90 mins.

We seem to have really young players mixed with old pros at the moment. The average age of the side against Man City was alarming. I think itÂ’s something we need to address with some players (22-26) who we donÂ’t need to develop (IÂ’m thinking Atsu) and can hit the ground running and replace Distin and Pienaar.

Of all the Everton centre-backs, John Stones is the most comfortable playing the ball out of the back. HeÂ’s a key to getting the ball forward without losing possession.

With the busy holiday period coming up, having Stones available is a big plus. I hope he isnÂ’t rushed back, but if heÂ’s 100% fit, I hope he plays.

You just played half of the 2017 Walsall reserves live on TV & IÂ’m reeling from that depressing squib. Can we have a moratorium on bullshit please?

Dividing seasons in half? So have we had the crap half already?

Win a game please Everton. ItÂ’s been a while. Danger of sleepwalking into oblivion here.

It would be a plus to have him back, but heÂ’s got to be 100%.

Howard

Coleman Jagielka Distin Baines

Besic Osman

Naismith Barkley Mirallas

Lukaku

I am disappointed as once again we have weakened midfield at the expense of forward players. Ossie has not got 90 minutes in him and should not be starting in what will be a battle for control initially and RM seems to be following OFMÂ’s error in putting Naismith on the wing so he can accommodate him and Barkley.

I have gone on all season about needing to control the midfield more and link up with the full backs but Martinez seems to want to continue with his "project".

Thank... Freaking... God.

Time for the talking to stop Roberto ,we need points on the table!!

IÂ’m really keen to see Garbutt get more game time too. Especially because of his excellent set pieces.

IÂ’d love to see more young players in the team and would love to see this team in action in the not so distant future:

Howard
Coleman Stones Jagielka Garbutt
McCarthy Besic
Mirallas Barkley Oviedo
Lukaku

Of course Baines is one of our best players and will not be shifted easily. Perhaps Martinez could start trying him in midfield while McCarthy is still out?

Then there are our promising youngsters Ledson and Long etc. So overall we should be doing better. It’s tactics and the speed of them that seems to have been our bugbear. I think we need our midfield to become fast attackers – the Blue Isrealites!

Let him carry on training so heÂ’s ready for Boxing Day or games after, Southampton away next week at the earliest. WeÂ’ve already brought back enough players to soon.

Unfortunately Barkley seems to be still developing and the only young players that have forced their way into contention are defenders. Only Garbutt and Stones have broken into the best 14 or 15 we have at present.

We are supposed to be interested in the young Slovenian Duda who is 20 years old and playing for Legia Warsaw and the Slovenian national team. He is a certain star of the future by all accounts so I really hope we can get him. Watching him play shows me that he is way better than our present Under-21 attacking midfielders and he could be the successor to Osman or Barry. I am afraid that none of our Under-21s look any threat to those two and that is a big disappointment to me.

Our coaches are not teaching them the basics about closing down and running off the ball and that must be the minimum requirement if they are to make the grade. Garbutt actually runs at defenders and has ball control and pace. The others just passed sideways and backwards and played safely but with no attacking intent. Kone was virtually on his own up front.

Under-21s should be pushing for places, they are not too young if they are good enough.

IÂ’ve heard Roberto getting stick for bringing players back too quickly, especially with reference to Barry after his injury. This is just Roberto-bashing in my opinion. Players can only get match fit in games and those like Jags and Barry are always slow to get up to speed after injuries.

Normally when players are rushed back they get similar injuries such as Kompany today. The only player that could be levelled at is McCarthy but even then IÂ’m not sure if that was the same injury as before?

Stones is crucial to how Roberto operates as he comes into midfield so easily and makes it difficult for our opponents to drop off as they do with Distin and Jags. He will need time to get match fit but so does Alcaraz and Distin has been a disaster apart from Man City when he did well. If fit enough to make the matchday squad this is a good game to introduce him back in.

What a player and has been as big a miss as Mirallas.

I have always maintained we should leave it to the professionals but, based on RM's bizarre team selections this season, I feel entitled to put my point of view forward.

I canÂ’t talk really, as I get upset over the rumours spouted in the media even though I know itÂ’s rubbish.

It seems to me he’s like the kid who tries to complete a jigsaw by trying to bend the pieces just to make sure he’s got them all in. Playing to the strengths available has always been the way to success – not ruining good players by making them fit his already outdated philosophy!

Yeah, it's the managers fault he puts players in the wrong positions. Usually he plays one player out of position and had we Dellboy this season then there would probably be none.

He inherited an ageing squad and thatÂ’s not Moyes's fault either as we are a club that just donÂ’t have the resources. When he didnÂ’t spend the Fellaini money and only brought McGeady on a free, he identified that he needed 7 players to cope with the demands of Europe. Then, after a board meeting, he said we will just go with the youngsters.

Of course our current position is poor and Roberto certainly isnÂ’t blameless but we overachieved last year and so far this we have not been producing enough points. I still feel we will finish in the top 7 though and who knows how far we can go in Europe.

I agree with your viewpoint of inadequate support from the board but the squad still has enough quality to be playing a lot better and achieving better results.

The board do not pick the team or decide tactics or substitutions all of which I have serious issue with this season.

The board do not run the fitness and conditioning of the players which again I have issues with this season.

My major concern however remains the manager's propensity of playing too many "forwards" at the expense of the midfield. There is no linking up of play in midfield because of lack of numbers with the consequence we have to either piss around at the back or try getting the ball to the forwards.

Then, if the ball doesn't stick or we lose the ball, it comes straight back on the centre-backs with too much space for the opposition to exploit.

Football is a simple game.... you pass and move and try to retain possession but, when the majority of that possession is in your own half, you have to question the management of the team.

Yes and he addressed that by signing Barry, Alcaraz, Kone and EtoÂ’o... And furthermore, he gave Hibbert a new contract, Barry a ridiculous 3-year deal, and it looks like Osman is getting a new deal.

Personally, I would have liked Bobby to invest in more younger players and cleared some of the older ones from the wage bill.

I think we have had our fair share of bad luck and I think the manager is paying by going so strong in the Europa League. If you look how poor we were against Spurs and Hull after the Wolfsburg game, I think those results were down to fatigue. The manager would have needed to make about 10 subs in those games to get the victories.

Yes, you are right that RobertoÂ’s decision to give the players as much time off after the World Cup looks as if it has backfired but perhaps in the second half of the season the benefits may show in terms of results.

After Southampton we will have already played 5 of the top 7 from last year, excluding us, away from home and we have a nice run until January in terms of fixtures so hopefully at halfway our position will look more respectable.

Mark I think you are being harsh as EtoÂ’o and Barry are a different level from the experienced players we have had before and highlight the financial difficulties in which our managers have to work with. We needed a centre half and a forward when he arrived so he knew those players.

Look at the youth he brought to the club in McCarthy, Lukaku, Delboy and Besic as well as bringing Barkley, Stones and Oviedo into the first team with Garbutt and Browning close also. Others such as Henen and Galloway are there for the future also.

I totally agree with you Mark that we need to get a lot of the deadwood out asap but the problem is that to improve on what we have requires funds and as we sawthe other night the majority of the youngsters arenÂ’t good enough and of those that are, eg, Ledson are not ready yet.

A win over QPR is a must.

Have faith – Roberto will not let us down!

Or, perhaps itÂ’s the players and not us that donÂ’t have your faith in St Roberto?

The financial constraints that Bobby is working under obviously dictates his budget; he seemed to put all his eggs in one basket spending 㿈 million on Lukaku. A risky strategy.

Martinez does seem to have gone down the route of signing too many geriatric players for my liking and the wages of these senior pros will eat considerably into the budget, but I don't know his true vision for the future... perhaps he's keeping the older players around long enough until some of the younger players are ready? Perhaps he's just doing his best (with the funds he has) to put a team together that can compete in the short term.

Whatever his plans are, he deserves some time and patience to put his plan into place.

Of course your position is reinforced by your Wigan connections. I must say the Wigan fans I know say very different things to your people.

And while I'm on the topic – I was a bit confused by your point the other day about signing Joel and the role of Whelan in this. I didn't think he was a Wigan player but I may be wrong...

So frustrating isn't it.

As far as Robles was concerned, Wigan had an option on him after he had played for them in the Cup Final. When DW decided to retain Al-Habsi, he offered to waive his option on the Spaniard so Martinez snapped him up.

Rochdale had a better keeper!

The Wigan staff speak very highly of Roberto. Nothing but high praise from them. I can possibly understand (but disagree with) your dislike of him with some of this season's performances. Can you explain why you don't rate him on last season's results?

I saw him play in the Cup Final without really looking nervous, and then stood behind him shaking at Arsenal in the cup last season.

He doesn't look good enough to me but not playing must surely affect both development and confidence, and if the kid is going to have a career, he has got to play for someone soon, because he looks like he's wasting away to me.

Maybe I'm wrong about the bloke. Let's even hope so!

It doesn't intrigue me at all. Baffling how any fan could not be impressed with last season's performance.

It's frustrating at the moment because there's a great team in there if they were all fit, RM could pick sensibly and give them a system that they are comfortable and efficient with we could go places. I can't really see them finishing in the top half and I see a banana skin on Monday against QPR who I believe have lost all of their away games.

Oh and if one of their players has never scored, or their top scorer has failed to hit the target in the last month... mmmmm.

But then again, we could just turn the corner and twat them 8-0. Me thinks not judging by most of the above posts on our current situation.

As for Phil Whaling, let's wait and see at the end of the season; one thing's for sure, he has certainly given me much food for thought with his posts.

Last season, 'the old hands' in the team adapted 'the system' to suit. By now, they have HAD to absorb the Martinez way and the results are the consequence.

I think that in the key Europa League games, he ceded some control to the players – allowing adaption to counter the opposition style and tactics. And, surprise, surprise, didn't they do well!

Cheer up, fellas, keep the faith, all is not lost.

It seems like this is the season of transition. The players appear to be having difficulty adapting to the style Martinez wants, plus too many injuries are also hampering progress. It will happen but it will take time.

All teams are having problems breaking down defences in the modern game, whether it be Chelsea v Hull or Almeria v Barcelona. Chelsea won 2-0 after Huddlestone was sent off and Barcelona drew 0-0.

Persistent quick passing, running off the ball, pressing defenders and getting into the box with the ball are essential in order to break teams down. Constant pressure is also important.

Top players produce the goods week-in & week-out. Lesser players perform now and again. Unfortunately, at the moment, too many of our players fall into the latter category.

Another TW poster who thinks it's the manager's fault when we get beat but the players who choose the tactics when we win? That's two of you now with the same warped logic.

I guess that, with a virtually full squad, this will be a real test of whether our poor form is down to Roberto's tactics or injuries.

That is pure utter gibberish of the highest order! So we achieved 5th place and record points total despite of Martinez, not because of Martinez?!?!

There are many factors in my opinion for our poor form this season:

(a) A poor pre-season and the players not coming into the season in good shape physically.

(b) Individual errors by players like in the Crystal Palace game – a game we would have won if not for costly errors.

(c) The defence (and in particular Jags) out of form and conceding too many goals in the early part of the season.

(d) All the injuries the squad has had to cope with.

(e) The extra games we've had to play with being in the Europa League.

Some of the factors are Roberto's fault, some aren't, but he deserves time and patience to turn thing's around in the Premier League. Rome wasn't built in a day.

ToffeeWeb wouldn't exist if we all thought the same way.

There will always be bad luck, injuries and poor referee decisions. Last season, we rose above that; this season, we have regressed. I'll give the manager credit for last season, criticism for this season.... so far.

Droning on about 'the system' or 'Plan B' is fairly redundant. Last season, the system appeared to be a sound defence, solid centre midfield, good ball retention and a bit of pace when it mattered. Hardly rocket science, is it? This season has seen poor defending, poor quality possession combined with a complete lack of pace and ideas.

So is it 'the system', or just poor performance by predominantly the manager and to a lesser extent, his players?

It's a bit early to write him off or demand his dismissal, but things need to get better before we all fall asleep!

We are in the later stages of the Europa League and have adapted ourselves to that competition very well; we have the FA Cup to come and we traditionally come on well after December in the league. That is, I accept, frustrating because you cannot start the Premier League season halfway through, but I have a suspicion that we are going to come good.

Finally, anyone who didn't see the serious promise of Ledson as well as, obviously, the quality of Garbutt on Thursday wasn't watching properly. It's not all doom – though I understand why people are irritated by performances to date.

Last season, I could understand your argument that the basis of the team was Moyes's and although I argued that we used a different system and that 3 of the 6 defenders used didn't play under Moyes and the 2 holding players which were pivotal to the system were also Martinez men. But I believed you made a genuine point that we were built on Moyes's defensive organisation.

If you had just argued that the Moyes effect was wearing off, I could respect your viewpoint but such is your clear bias and distaste for this manager, the fact that we have performed so brilliantly in Europe doesn't tally with this synopsis, so you have ridiculously put this success wholly down to the players.

You have accused me of blind faith towards Martinez but I have been critical of him, especially in the Leicester and Swansea games where I feel we could have won those games with a few tactical changes and better subs. However you have never given him any credit despite our marvellous season last year and now our excellent European campaign this.

In addition when we have had terrible injuries or as at Spurs we had a really fatigued performance due to the trip to Wolfsburg you have never allowed any leeway for mitigating circumstances and usually pounced on these to berate him with. Even at City when the referee decided the game with 3 awful decisions it was Roberto's fault.

If you are wanting people to respect your viewpoint, a little balance is necessary... after all this manager produced a season last year that Moyes was never able to and only considered us a small club. Roberto believes we can be one of the elite. You have plenty of fuel for Roberto bashing without stupid statements like the European one.

When the going gets tough....

Well we will find out on Monday.

Injuries, bad decisions, players' individual errors, Europa League etc. etc. etc. But none of it down to your hero. And then you cite the appalling pre-season non-preparation.

Well, perhaps, just perhaps, that is what's behind the whole dreadful league record. But, of course, that can't be down to St Martin because he was in Brazil all summer!

But Everton are a 'second half' of the season club so what's to worry about?

Can you not see the simple logic?

When we get beat it's the fault of the manager.... when we win it's the players who deserve the credit. You do yourself no favours with your refusal to accept the futility of your point.

Seeing as our spending power hasn't greatly increased relative to the other clubs in the division how is Roberto or indeed any other manger expected to fulfil those expectations. Imagine supporting one of those clubs who have spent 5 times more than we have and are still unable to challenge Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd.

I will agree that the football has at times been disjointed and hard to watch but I'm still confident given a full team and a fair wind, this Everton squad can still make a challenge this season, however there is also a risk that the negativity and lack of patience from some could undermine the whole thing but as usual we'll have to wait and see how things go between now and the end of the season.

Before anybody posts something along the lines 'making excuses' or 'Defending Roberto' I couldn't care less about individuals it's about the team and the club and I believe those 'excuses' are in the main plausible reasons as to why so far this season things haven't been as good as we had hoped for.

I'm very disappointed with our in the table but not surprised.I think other posts have covered all the reasons but I'm sure that a job lot of mirrors must have been broken at GP!

I think we will get at least 7 points out of the next 3 games.
ps: Fingers crossed.

A) to look abroad were our spending power has increased in relation to other leagues but with all the complications of players not settling and trying to measure the relative merits of players performances to see if they are capable of playing in the premier league or;

B) have a smaller squad, in relation to the clubs with greater revenue, of about 16/17 top line players mixed with 4 developing talent (we hope ) and 4 older players who cant play every game but can manage 15/20 good games a season.

I think we have chosen option B but a few injuries, older players not having as much in the tanks as the manager thought and the younger talent not developing in line with expectations can really affect that strategy.

To be perfectly honest, I'd rather stay that way than have a few mercenary hacks making excuses for us.

Hindsight is a great ability to have but at the time Bainsey was in his pomp and I hope he recovers his form ASAP.

Like others have said, I'd like to see Baines moved into MF with Oviedo alternating with Pienaar LW, and Garbutt at LB.

I believe he will find a way to get things moving. Not time to hit the panic button quite yet.

Plus I agree with Phil; any and all criticism is valid. If we all agreed, it would be boring as hell.

Looking at the other clubs and how the majority have improved their teams with astute buys, I will ask a question: Do the supporters believe that we strengthened the squad this summer with money available, as only Besic was a new player coming to the club?

Nail, Head

Phil has made a point on this thread suggesting when we get beat it's the managers fault... when we win it's the players who should get the credit. Bearing in mind previous posts of yours, would you agree with that logic?

I believe the signing of Lukaku was a good piece of business but, as there is different quotes on how the transfer fee is paid, it makes me wonder what monies were available to Mr Martinez in the summer.

RM has earned the right to ask the fans to stick with him, but the team now needs to get firing and win games in December. Equally, I'd be satisfied even if we could turn in a good performance over 90 mins in the Premier League!

QPR's away record is just about as bad as it gets... They are without their top scorer and Robbie's making them out to be Real Madrid.

Been here before haven't we... Frying pan / Fire.

I would have taken 㾼m in a shot. We are not a club that can afford to have our assets depreciate to near enough no value, for the sake of a year or so, when we have (albeit maybe with the benefit of hindsight) decent back up in that position.

I'd sooner have seen that money buy a proper central midfielder and wide left midfielder rather than shoehorn Baines and Oviedo into positions they are probably not ideally suited to.

We are not in a ToffeeWeb competition, just a usually friendly exchange of views. You think the sun shines from the manager's arse, I've just seen his Sky performance re-inforce my view that he is an ace bullshitter.

Let's just agree to differ and let the guys get on with discussing prospects for tomorrow.

Flattery will get you nowhere... Seriously, it's not point-scoring at all, it's debate, trying to get an accurate opinion from you – that's all.

Of course it's friendly exchange, I have criticised our style of play on several occasions by the way. If you don't mind me saying, you are taking my comments too personally.

Martinez has undoubtedly short-changed us this season, but as the really fit bird in Gone with the Wind said... Tomorrow is another day!

If he plays tomorrow and breaks down, it will be a travesty. I think Martinez is desperately looking for something to stem the tide and I fear he won't find it in a non-match fit Stones.

Here's a revelation! Play your fittest best team in the correct positions, we should have more than enough to wipe the floor with QPR tomorrow.

It's good fun trying to run our beloved club, but surely nobody thinks they know better than our manager on this one about the best way to handle a recovering injured player.

There are a few posters who use any excuse to berate Martinez regardless of the subject of the thread.

Would you believe one of them stated last week,"If Martinez hadn't gone to Brazil to watch the fit birds playing beach volleybal,l we would have been in a better position."

Hahaha...

There's an easy flip side to that accusation though.

I myself have, on a number of occasions, done exactly the opposite and placed the blame squarely on certain players for making shocking individual errors, whilst absolving the manager of blame as he couldn't possibly legislate for the experienced and trusted senior pros ( who served him so well last season) suddenly turning into Frank Spencer in football boots.

However, we're now four months in, the players are still fouling up from week to week, and the manager clearly hasn't yet fathomed a way to refocus their minds and get them to eradicate these costly cock ups.

I still take the view that certain players have let him down badly but, by now, he should really be making a better fist of motivating them and ensuring the same bollocks don't keep being dropped.

When Distin was temporarily dumped from the side, I hoped it was a sign that Roberto had finally removed the soft velvet glove and whacked on an Ash from 'The Evil Dead' style chainsaw attachment in an attempt to wake up his lifeless fucking Deadites . However, it now seems like the 'he just had an injury, honest lad' line might have had more legs instead.

His trademark trusting of players and talking up of their (phenomenal) abilities is all well and good, but even the worlds most donkey respecting 'Rag and Bone' Man knows there comes a point in the road where you need to bin the carrot and switch to the stick. Otherwise, you're just going to come to a grinding halt and be stuck sat on top of a grotty cart full of someone else's old shite.

Last season Martinez managed to coax a bit more out of his players by bestowing them with belief. Belief that they had the ability to challenge the top teams if they took the shackles off. Belief that by following his methods they were in with a realistic chance of getting over that final hurdle they've fallen short at so many times before.

They didn't quite make it but the players clearly bought into his way of thinking. They played with a swagger and a sense of freedom that was sorely missing for most of the Moyes reign.

Liberation... by lovely little sound bites.

At the start of this season the belief seemed still to be there, but began to be slowly eroded by a slew of stupid mistakes. They did well enough at Leicester but switched off disastrously at vital times. They totally outplayed Arsenal for 80 minutes, only to panic when their teetering opponent finally mustered up enough fight to tear themselves off the ropes and have a pop back. When the self-destruct button was swiftly pressed again at the start of the Chelsea game you could almost see the 'WTF? Maybe we're nowhere near as good as we thought' look creeping over their faces. That expression has never really changed since. It's freakishly frozen there. Like Mickey Rourke's mad rubbery rigarmortis mug, or David Copperfields disbelieving yet disgustingly smug 'cum face' after he finally got to shag Claudia Schiffer.

Since then, whenever it seems like they're about to turn the corner, another banana skin is dropped kamikaze style, sending them careening back onto their arse again. You can see it in the ponderous passing, the unwillingness to take risks, the uncertainty at the back.

I also think Martinez himself has been sapped of some confidence. In a number of after match interviews now, he's looked like a more shellshocked, Catalan, Choi Min-Sik in 'Old Boy'. As though he's been abducted off the street by an unknown assailant, gassed, locked up in a windowless hotel room for fifteen years, then shoved in a suitcase and suddenly set free to speak about the game before he can begin to get his bearings. He's still trying to talk a good game but it's ringing kind of hollow and almost comes across like he's trying to convince himself as much as anyone else right now.

I know injuries have played a part, as well as the demands of the Europa, but at other times the changes could stand accused of coming close to needless 'tinkering'. The constant switching up of personnel suggests he's no longer sure of his strongest side and undermines any chance of certain players finding their flow. Barkley, for example, has found himself starting one game, sitting out the next, playing in his proper position, sitting on his arse, being shunted out onto the wing, back on the bench again etc. Not surprising he's yet to hit his stride thus far.

It's not as simplistic as saying it's either the players who are the problem or it's the manager. There's been fault on both sides. You can't absolve Martinez of blame just because he did better than expected last season and he seems like a boss bloke. On the other hand, you can't call Cousin Otis to 'go get the hounds ready' and march round his house to order him to leave town just because you've always thought there was something 'off' about him.

I still think Martinez will turn it around and get us moving up the table, sooner rather than later. We've got too many players long overdue a good run of form, and a manager who is surely too smart to leave his head half buried in the sand all season.

I just think he needs to be a bit less Ned Flanders to nudge things along and the players need to be a lot less Homer Simpson to help him out (Kenwright can just carry on being Ralph Wiggum in the background).

The sooner we see the back of Distin, the better.

QPR should be a no-brainer, but I will not wait up in the early hours of the morning to be frustrated, I may well just go to bed early and be equally frustrated hoping for a shag.