Kean's absence from Saints game due to disciplinary action

Tuesday, 12 November, 2019 228comments  |  Jump to last
Moise Kean was dropped from the squad to face Southampton last Saturday because he breached club rules, it has been revealed.

The teenage striker did not travel to the south coast after he arrived late for a team meeting.

Kean has reportedly apologised and the club consider the matter closed.

The Italian has struggled to adapt to the Premier League after making a highly anticipated transfer from Juventus in a deal worth £25m, not helped by the Toffees' own patchy form this season.

He was withdrawn at half-time on the occasion of his last start against Watford in the Carabao Cup a fortnight ago but, nevertheless, his absence from the Southampton fixture was, prior to the today's explanation, a surprise.

Kean was recently left out of Italy's squad for the same infraction when he showed up late for a team meeting at the Under-21 European Championships.  


Reader Comments (228)

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Mike Gaynes
1 Posted 12/11/2019 at 14:42:10
It's not just Premier League football the lad needs to learn -- it's professionalism. When you're supposed to be someplace, be there. Managers are not tolerant of these lapses, and Moise has now had at least three of them.

Young adults mature at different rates. This one seems a bit slow. Time to grow up, son.

Ben Miller
3 Posted 12/11/2019 at 14:54:51
I’m sure this comment thread will be full of people apologising for being so hotheaded during the match thread and calling for Silva’s head because of his atrocious mismanagement of Kean alone.

Shockingly, once more, there’s more to it than ToffeeWebbers are aware of when you all so relentlessly call for the manager’s head because X is playing instead of Y, and then the following week doing the same but this time because Y is playing instead of Z.

Tony Hill
4 Posted 12/11/2019 at 15:04:06
I think he has apologised to the players and, I assume, to his manager. He's allowed some lapses.

Kieran Kinsella
5 Posted 12/11/2019 at 15:14:29
I'm a little disappointed with this coming hot on the heels of him being dropped by Italy for the same infraction. Obviously lessons not learned. I realize he's young but he is being paid awfully well so has to be responsible.
Frank McGregor
6 Posted 12/11/2019 at 15:31:35
Put him up for sale now and hope you get a good price in January.
Failure to get rid now and you will be faced with an on-going problem.
Mike Gaynes
7 Posted 12/11/2019 at 15:35:18
Tony #4, I'd say once is a lapse... three times in four months is a pattern that needs to be addressed.
Dennis Stevens
8 Posted 12/11/2019 at 15:45:16
Perhaps he's still on BST
Frank Crewe
9 Posted 12/11/2019 at 15:58:22
How many youngsters have gone off the rails because they got too much too soon? Too many. This has to be nipped in the bud right away or there will be another young player who wrecked his career before it had barely begun. We don't want a budding Balotelli on our hands.
Kevin Molloy
10 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:02:08
Souness flagged his propensity for doing this a few weeks ago and got dogs abuse on here
Brian Williams
11 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:09:27
Come on Kev. It's fine for us to slag him but we can't have the rs slagging him now can we? ;-)
Martin Berry
12 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:16:41
Lets hope the warning goes in as being late twice is plain reckless.
He is paid all this money and cant get to a meeting on time, pull your socks up lad as we all want you to do well at the club.
Kevin Molloy
13 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:18:42
good point Brian, very true
Kenny Smith
14 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:18:54
MAN IS LATE FOR WORK ! Not much of a headline there really unless there’s more we don’t know.

ENGLAND INTERNATIONAL GETS KOPITE IN HEADLOCK ! Now that’s a better one.

Maybe the timing of the Keane story coming out was down to the fact it would be buried by the Sterling incident. Or does anyone who in an Evertonian care....?

Steve Ferns
15 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:20:13
Kevin, Souness was clearly guessing. He knew nothing of this. The fact that he was late for Italy u21s as well as for Everton came out after that. It seems Silva and the club have tried to keep this quiet.
Rob Marsh
16 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:21:36
There's no mitigating circumstance other than a life or death one.

I'm disgusted he's living in a dream world in which we'd all love to take his place and he literaly couldn't give a f***.

As Mike Gaynes said in post 1, being punctual is something you do because it's the right thing to do and in this case the professional thing to do!

Do we have a £27m Royston Drenthe on our hands here?

Steve Brown
17 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:28:28
Apparently N'Golo Kante constantly gets fined for being late at Chelsea - not a bad player and loved by everyone. Let's give the lad a break, he's 19 years old.
Mark Guglielmo
18 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:30:26
Rob @16 how do you or anyone know he "doesn't give a fuck?" No one's excusing him for being late, but there are a slew of reasons that could be outside of how much he cares. Immaturity. Whatever situations he had before (meaning to what degree it was tolerated if the issue existed). He doesn't own a watch. ;-)

I think we need to be careful when we assume we know what's in a teenager's brain, or what his motives are/aren't. We simply don't know. We've only had the kid for a few months! Now if it doesn't improve over the next few months? Sound the alarm. But sometimes all it takes is a gentle reminder, made publicly, that you follow the rules, period.

I don't get why so many seem to want him to fail before he's even started. That's what it seems to me, at least.

Steve Ferns
19 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:31:27
Rob, you don't want to see his social media then, he was showing off some very expensive and sparkly jewellery that looked more than a little garish, and in light of today's articles, was bad timing.

On Drenthe, did you see the article in FourFourTwo about him:

"He endured a difficult relationship with Moyes, and the wideman found himself distracted by off-field temptations such as the pool parties at his residence. As his timekeeping got worse, player and gaffer clashed several times, and it all came to a head when Drenthe turned up late for a team meeting before the Toffees’ FA Cup semi-final in April 2012: a Merseyside derby against Liverpool.

“I was waiting outside the room,” he explains, “whereas I probably should have just walked in quietly and taken a seat. When I went in afterwards, Moyes told me to f**k off. I should have accepted it, but I said, ‘What do you mean, f**k off, bro? You f**k off.’ And then I left for Holland and didn’t come back.”

Older, wiser, Drenthe admits things could have been a bit different: “If I’d adapted more to Moyes I think I’d have reaped the benefits, as initially I did play a lot under him.”

Read more at https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/how-royston-drenthe-finally-found-love-real-madrid-warring-moyes-and-rap-music#ylLfPlcRvSqYrpg4.99

John Pickles
20 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:35:54
Maybe he didn't know where he was supposed to be and at what time.

A lot of our players have that problem, especially at corners.

Alan J Thompson
21 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:36:24
How dare he turn up late, I mean, did he have trouble telling the bus driver where he wanted to get off or did he just forget we drive on the left? 19, strange country, doesn't speak the language and his mother was told he'd be looked after.
Rob Marsh
22 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:38:54
Steve Brown # 17

Steve, when he start playing like Kante I'll cut him some slack, at the moment he's playing like my auntie and not N'Golo Kante!!!

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

23 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:39:22
This puts in perspective some OTT reaction that he was cut from the team on Saturday.

Anyone know if his mum is with him in the UK? There has been a number of young players at Everton who didn't get the pastoral care and support they needed having moved to us.

The young Uruguayan striker Rodriguez and George Green come to mind.

Given Brands' very public declaration to Kean's mother that Everton would look after her boy, I hope they are living up to that promise on the not inconsiderable investment the club has made in him.

He'll learn, or he'll scupper his own career before it takes off.

On another note about young players we've been linked to, I suggest people shelve the hope of 17-year-old Renier Jesus signing for us from Flamengo.

He signed a contract extension at the weekend valid until 2024 with a larger release clause.

Duncan McDine
24 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:40:33
Dennis, I think if he was on BST then he’d have turned up an hour early. I remember Rory McIlroy turned up to a major golf tournament in the US an hour late as he’d set his watch to the wrong timezone, rocks up 2 mins before his tee time so no practice and plays like a diamond. I personally don’t see this as a big story, but I just hope the lad can pull his socks up and show Mr Silva that he’s ready to play up top for us. For now I’ll keep everything crossed and ignore what my eyes tell me (from the limited game time I’ve witnessed).
James Stewart
25 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:41:55
If I was Kean and Tosun and DCL were constantly getting picked over me I wouldn’t even bother showing up at all!
Jim Bennings
26 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:45:05
I think we need someone to start advising the lad a bit more too.

He’s a youngster but he’s also part of the senior team and that means that certain conduct and duties need reaching.

Players like James Maddison amongst others have done a bit off the pitch lately but when they are performing brilliantly on it, it’s not noticed as much.

The pathetic Yannick Bolasie tweet a few years ago about “skillz “ came on the eve we got smashed up 4-0 at Spurs and Bolasie looked like a Sunday League player that day.

It kind of grates on me players who are doing daft things yet aren’t doing anything on the pitch.

Hopefully Kean learns quickly, the lad needs advising better and we need to start seeing him get on that pitch and show some of this potential we are told about.

Brian Williams
27 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:46:34
John#20.
Made me laugh out loud that one mate. Very true by the way!
Liam Reilly
28 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:50:33
John#20 - V good!
Rob Marsh
29 Posted 12/11/2019 at 16:52:23
Steve Ferns # 19

Steve, I don't want to see his Jewellery, considering how crap he is on the pitch it will make me excitable and ruin my dinner to come.

They really don't give a F*** do they?

As for Drenthe, he seems quite genuinely contrite now, it's a pity, he had talent, but if the mindset is not there, it's not there!

Maybe, when we bring these kids in we could give them presentation of how things are and what's expected of them?

I recall reading somewhere that the ManU team stood up when SAF walked in the room and it was the captains duty to make clear to new players what was expected of them. Boy do we live in a different world now!

Eddie Dunn
30 Posted 12/11/2019 at 17:12:50
Did anyone tell him that the clocks went back?
Jay Harris
31 Posted 12/11/2019 at 17:14:44
Imagine Cloughie's reaction.

"Now then young man you need to buy yourself a new watch and an alarm clock, otherwise you'll be going back to Italy on a high speed train and by the way you will be fined 2 weeks wages to fund my liquor cabinet".

"Now go and straighten yourself out or you'll be sorry".

Mark Guglielmo
32 Posted 12/11/2019 at 17:15:31
Rob M @29 “considering what we’ve seen on the pitch.”

Do you really believe that’s a fair assessment? Look at the games he’s been used in to date:

@ Palace - subbed on at 69’ in a 0-0 draw
vs Watford - subbed on at 72’ in a 1-0 win
@ Villa - subbed on at 62’ in a 2-0 loss
vs Wolves - started, 1 assist in a 3-2 win
@ Bournemouth- subbed on at 71’ in a 3-1 loss
vs Sheffield - started in a 0-2 loss
vs City - subbed on at 74’ as RW in a 1-3 loss
@ Burnley - subbed on at 74’ in a 1-0 loss
vs West Ham - subbed on at 86’ as RW in a 2-0 win

Hardly ideal scenarios for any player, let alone someone brand new to everything. I suppose one could argue he was “useless” in the Sheffield game he started, but it would be very difficult to isolate a single player who was awful that day.

I also wonder how many minutes he’s gotten, at CF, on a front line with Bernard and Walcott to his left & right, with Iwobi & Davies moving the ball vertically, and Holgate & Sidibe adding new elements of creativity. I’m guessing the answer is 0 minutes.

Rob Marsh
33 Posted 12/11/2019 at 17:21:12
Jay # 31

He'd beat him up!

Do you remember that fan dressed as a clown ran on the pitch and Cloughie tackled him like a UFC fighter.

Brian Harrison
34 Posted 12/11/2019 at 17:26:28
Well when you are already a millionaire at 19, then I guess he thinks he can do what he likes. Certainly not the worst thing he can do but certainly has previous form for turning up late as he has done this while on international duty.

What surprises me is, I would imagine the club have provided him with a driver, so its not as he cant understand an English sat nav.

Dennis Stevens
35 Posted 12/11/2019 at 17:26:32
Aye, Duncan - perhaps I'm the one in the wrong time zone!
Brent Stephens
36 Posted 12/11/2019 at 17:37:18
This is why my wife would never had made a professional footballer. Timekeeping. "I'll be there at 12.00" means any time in the two hours after that.
Kieran Kinsella
37 Posted 12/11/2019 at 17:42:17
Wood

You’re off the mark with Green. He has done multiple interviews where he said Everton did everything they could to keep him on track and he takes full responsibility for blowing it despite great support from the club

Kevin Prytherch
38 Posted 12/11/2019 at 17:44:26
I think I remember reading something about Harry Catterick once.

A couple of players turned up late for training. He asked them “what time did training finish yesterday” they said “5 o clock”. He said “what time did it start today?” They said “9 o clock” he said, “that gave you 16 hours to make it on time for training.” They both got fined a weeks wages.

Andy Crooks
39 Posted 12/11/2019 at 17:45:31
Punctuality is good manners and respect. At nineteen he should have both. At nine he should have had both.
Dermot Byrne
40 Posted 12/11/2019 at 18:00:15
I agree Andy. Perhaps the nannying of these precious assets needs to be a bit tougher.

He will hopefully learn and his folks give him an earful rather than listening to his agent.

Barry Rathbone
41 Posted 12/11/2019 at 18:13:53
One of the many faults at this club is the utter inability to build teams with a bit of character; the propensity for failure as mediocre players go through the motions "as and when" goes back decades. This fella appears another mediocre balloon clueless about what is needed.

Juve must be laughing their cocks off at Brands swallowing the tag "one of the hottest prospects in Europe", hook, line and sinker.

David Thomas
42 Posted 12/11/2019 at 18:18:40
Catterick used to say to the players who were late on a Monday morning that they had no excuse as they had had since quarter to five on Saturday to get to Bellefield.
David Thomas
43 Posted 12/11/2019 at 18:23:26
It was the white pele who told that story about Catterick
John Keating
44 Posted 12/11/2019 at 18:27:36
I see Lampards sorting the Chelski lads out

20k for missing or late for training.
500 quid a minute late for meetings
1k if a mobile phone goes off

Still not enough but a good start

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

45 Posted 12/11/2019 at 18:33:01
Kieran @ 37.

I wonder if you see the irony of your deliberate discourtesy in addressing a fellow TWer by their surname on a thread about a young player needing to be made aware of such a fundamental courtesy to his manager and teammates as good time-keeping, in parallel with an ongoing debate about 'respect' between posters as incendiary exchanges from the live forum spill over into the open forum?

Each to their own, 'n all that.

I really am a permanent splinter under your fingernail, aren't I Kieran?

Gordon Crawford
46 Posted 12/11/2019 at 18:39:57
Steve it was good guess by Souness though. The club did the right thing though. If I was late for work twice I would be disciplined, so should he.
Joe McMahon
47 Posted 12/11/2019 at 18:48:47
John @44, Lampards doing a great job, Sadly I don't think he would come to us even in the future.
Barry Thompson
48 Posted 12/11/2019 at 18:48:48
45 - Thought it quite rude and discourteous as well. Always remember me arl girl used to say - good manners cost nothing
Darren Hind
49 Posted 12/11/2019 at 18:57:45
Stan Bowles would still be in the betting shop at 2.45 When QPR played at home. Legend has it that he never heard a single team talk. If the race was delayed, The QPR players wouldnt come out for a warm up because everyone would Know Stan wasnt there
obody was fooled. Every man and his dog knew where he had been, but they overlooked it because he was blindingly talented and was often worth the entrance fee alone.

If youre going to be late, you better be good when you get there

John Keating
50 Posted 12/11/2019 at 19:02:53
Seems to be Joe
Great to see a manager, especially a young one starting out, giving youngsters a chance. You would think he'd play "safe" and play the older pros.

I see he gave a young 18 year old Scottish lad the last 10 minutes or so last game.
Maybe Marco can take a leaf eh ?

Mike Gaynes
51 Posted 12/11/2019 at 19:08:52
David #43, would that be Joe-Max Moore?
Dave Abrahams
53 Posted 12/11/2019 at 19:25:37
Mike (51), Brian Labone actually. Although others might have told it as well.
Bill Gienapp
54 Posted 12/11/2019 at 19:26:41
Being late isn't the most heinous crime in the world... though, as others have noted, if it's a persistent issue, it becomes a question of basic professionalism and needs to be curbed.

That being said, I wouldn't automatically assume Kean's a bad egg or that he doesn't care or that the money's gone to his head.

Brian Wilkinson
55 Posted 12/11/2019 at 19:34:14
Cheers Ben@4 said everything I was going to say, saved me Typing same comment.
David Thomas
56 Posted 12/11/2019 at 19:37:10
Dave, yes I’m pretty sure it was Labone who said it originally I just remember Harvey saying it as well.
Rob Marsh
57 Posted 12/11/2019 at 19:51:29
Bill # 54

I wouldn't be upsetting my employer if I had the best and most enjoyable job in the world whilst being paid £70,000 pw.

Kase Chow
58 Posted 12/11/2019 at 19:55:06
Brent #36

Same mate. Same

Brian Harrison
59 Posted 12/11/2019 at 20:09:35
John Keating 44

I saw the same thing that Frank Lampard had pinned up a notice of fines for Chelsea first team players. The one thing you know all footballers love is money so a £20,000 fine for being late for training or missing training is a massive deterrent. I would hope if Marco sees this he would implement all the 15 or so fines that Lampard has set out.

So there is no need to have a chat with a player if he is late as I doubt if any player would risk being late and losing £20,000.

Pat Kelly
60 Posted 12/11/2019 at 20:24:38
He must've reckoned Silva wouldn't look for him until 10 minutes before the meeting ended.
Mike Gaynes
61 Posted 12/11/2019 at 20:32:23
Good 'un, Pat!
Rob Brady
62 Posted 12/11/2019 at 20:35:54
Shandy Van Der Meyde, part II
Rob Marsh
63 Posted 12/11/2019 at 20:37:33
Shandy Andy at age 19, what world do these pro's live in?
Brian Wilkinson
64 Posted 12/11/2019 at 20:44:16
Don’t forget Drethne Rob.
Andy Crooks
65 Posted 12/11/2019 at 20:49:18
Bill G, it is. It drives me nuts. Actually I am obsessive about it. One of my daughter's friends asked if I was German( whatever that meant). I can forgive Moise loads on the pitch because of his age. Loads off it, because of his age and because he is a young man in a new country.
However, being on time is easy to get right, if you actually give a flying fuck, have a modicum of respect for your colleagues and do not have an overblown sense of entitlement that sees yourself as the centre of the universe.
Mike Gaynes
66 Posted 12/11/2019 at 20:53:54
Andy, I thought the key ingredient for a top striker was an overblown sense of entitlement!
Tony Hill
67 Posted 12/11/2019 at 20:56:14
Mike @7, yes I understand that and agree with you, and he has been disciplined and he has apologised. I hope, though, that we have the skills and awareness to manage a teenager - albeit a professional athlete and multi-millionaire - in a way that gives us the best chance of unlocking his potential over time. I vaguely remember what I was like at 19 and it wasn't good - but again I accept that a professional sportsman's position is greatly different.

This is a good, early step in the process of bringing the young man to fulfilment. With no serious evidence to support the view (apart from some energy against West Ham and a lovely shimmy and cross for Richarlison against Sheffield United), I think this lad could be a major player for us - look at his footballer's build and his willingness to take the fight to the opposition. I say that despite seeing a poor first touch and very raw moves from Moise so far. Nerves are to blame.

Gently does it.


Brian Williams
68 Posted 12/11/2019 at 21:27:59
Let's not get too carried away with all this.
I heard another story recently with which this can be looked at for comparison.
Seasoned international has fallout, with international teammate, which spills over to international training. Seasoned international basically attacks fellow international and is punished by being omitted from squad for one game. Seasoned international apologises and that's it dealt with.
Moise Keane is late for team meeting twice and is omitted from squad for one game and apologises to manager and team mates.
Let's have some perspective and wait and see if the lad continues to transgress before marching with the pitchforks.
It's been dealt with, let's move on and concentrate on winning football matches rather than getting carried away with "one of our own."
Oliver Molloy
69 Posted 12/11/2019 at 21:40:50
i think in Italy he was being compered as to having the same attitude and temperament of one Mario Balotelli...oh dear if he ever scores for us that will be good craic!
Mick Conalty
70 Posted 12/11/2019 at 21:52:02
You are going to be late if you have to get to Finch farm on your bike instead of your 4-L Audi, as advised by our tree-hugging EitC.
Jerome Shields
71 Posted 12/11/2019 at 22:31:36
I still think that Kean is being mismanaged. It's not a good sign, that lack of discipline is starting to manifest itself. With a 19-year-old, you have to be proactive and supportive. Everton's recent record isn't good with young players.

Who is Kean's mentor and what is he doing? Everton have paid a huge transfer fee and are paying this player big wages and he does not know to turn up for a team meeting on time. The Manager needs to look deeper into this and be proactive in sorting things out immediately.

Jerome Shields
72 Posted 12/11/2019 at 22:31:37
I still think that Kean is being mismanaged. It's not a good sign, that lack of discipline is starting to manifest itself. With a 19-year-old, you have to be proactive and supportive. Everton's recent record isn't good with young players.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

73 Posted 12/11/2019 at 23:35:16
In addition to the secondary news I shared @ 23 - to scratch Flamengo's 17-year-old Renier Jesus off anyone's wish list because at the weekend he signed a contract extension to 2024 with an improved release clause - it is also being reported that Flamengo's other hot property, Gabigol, is close to turning his current loan deal at Flamengo from his parent club Inter Milan into a permanent deal.

For the quoted €23 million EUROS, that's a helluva price in this market.

Checkout their goals from Sunday's 3-1 win over Bahia.

Link

Look how the two combined for Flamengo's equalizing goal. Gabigol is the peroxide #9 who puts in the excellent cross for Renier's thumping header.

Gabigol puts in another excellent cross for Flamengo's 2nd. How many strikers would do that, preferring to go for personal glory over creating a goal for a team mate?

And of course, who is the most alert to score the 3rd when a free-kick rebounds to Gabigol for the final goal of the game?

This is a very very good player at a great age and excellent price IMO.

David Pearl
74 Posted 12/11/2019 at 23:38:05
He's 19 and new. I'd've thought he'd have someone to pick him up every morning or he'd be under a senior player. I know all about finding it hard to get out of bed to go to training, l did the same. Of course, l was on a tiny bit less.
Bob Hannigan
76 Posted 12/11/2019 at 23:59:33
The young man needs to learn that, with success, responsibility goes hand in hand.

A few oversights are regrettable but if taken as a learning experience, that would be good. If it continues to recur that could be a real problem. ,

Tom Dodds
77 Posted 13/11/2019 at 00:20:14
Someone posted on another thread (GOT) a tweet from Calmica or what's it's name, the Italian sports paper, that Keane's agent Mina Riola isn't happy with his client's treatment at Everton, and that ‘they' will be looking at taking him back to Italy, preferably AC Milan in the January transfer window?

Yet another back to black season ahead.

FFS.

Rob Marsh
78 Posted 13/11/2019 at 00:31:43
Tom # 77

I wonder what AC will be bidding for him?

His displays so far have hacked £10m off his price at least.

AC will be telling us this kid will never make it in the prem, they'll do us a favour "here's thruppence ha'penny and a free jar of Bolognese sauce for him?".

Kieran Kinsella
79 Posted 13/11/2019 at 01:07:22
Tom

Sports Witness (which is unreliable and purveys unfounded gossip) reckon the Raiola story is being shared by a source that spreads unfounded gossip. Paradoxically that may mean it is true?

Alan J Thompson
80 Posted 13/11/2019 at 01:47:51
It also raises the question of who would have missed a spot on the bench if he had turned up on time.
Bob Parrington
81 Posted 13/11/2019 at 05:40:46
SIMPLES! The lad just needs to get his arse in to gear! Just don't be late for the crosses from Digne or Sidibe!
Paul A Smith
82 Posted 13/11/2019 at 07:44:33
Brands due dillegence has stunk.
Phil Sammon
83 Posted 13/11/2019 at 08:07:08
I’m sure Raiola has only the best interests of his client in mind. A selfless man who just wants to help young footballers find the right club for them. Then move them on again in 12 months.
Daniel A Johnson
84 Posted 13/11/2019 at 08:11:36
Look, Kean is a young lad in a foreign country, probably knows no one, realistically he hasn't bonded with his teammates due to his lack of game time and poor English.

It's like he needs a senior pro in the team to take him under his wing and show him the way. If he's just been left to his own devices, it's not hard to see how it's slipped a little.

He needs looking after, something Brands said he would do, remember.

Dave Williams
85 Posted 13/11/2019 at 09:00:59
Jerome is right, our record with youngsters is not good. Silva is so reluctant to use them and before anyone mentions Tom and Mason, his hand was pretty much forced. We have Gibson likely to move for peanuts and whilst Gordon is tied to a decent contract he will become restless with the Germans sniffing around.

A good coach brings young players through rather than splashing out on foreign lads who can't even speak English. Kean needs a minder of sorts, a bit like Best all those years ago having to lodge with Crerand (I know, it didn't work) but nothing will make Kean more restless than not being given a fair crack of the whip in the first team.

Trevor Peers
86 Posted 13/11/2019 at 09:14:59
The gamble of purchasing a young 19-year-old player like Kean, paying an unrealistic £30 million fee, to buy an untried prospect at Premier League level, has proved to be very bad business indeed. It remains to be seen just how damaging last summers transfer window will become financially.

If this is down to Brands he has covered himself in the brown stuff and his reputation must be tainted. I don't expect any sackings though, Moshiri has assembled his 'team' and seems determined to stick with them to the bitter end this time.

Alan McGuffog
87 Posted 13/11/2019 at 09:19:00
Didn't Duncan lodge with Dave Watson after one of his adventures?
John G Davies
88 Posted 13/11/2019 at 10:06:27
The Kean signing has been "bad business"... Within 3 months of him arriving?

He has been bought as a mid-term signing. Give him a chance to develop.

Jim Bennings
89 Posted 13/11/2019 at 10:24:38
Trevor

We won’t know for sure yet whether or not it’s bad business because it’s still early for Kean.

At the moment he’s not done anything to suggest he’s going to show up any time soon but let’s see where he is come May.

My concern would be if he was that good then why were Juventus ailing to sell for that price and not £40-50 million?

We knew when we had Rooney that we had something out of the ordinary and the money we got for him then was akin to probably £50 million now.

Let’s wait and see where Kean is come summer but football and time won’t wait for him to perform he needs to make himself undroppable when he gets the chance.

Brian Harrison
90 Posted 13/11/2019 at 10:46:50
I think what the Premier League has shown us this season is that top quality coaching is the key to success. Although Liverpool have amassed a fortune in the last 2 years, because of their success in the Champions League and their high finish in the Premier League, Klopp decided he didn't need to spend hardly any money.

Likewise Rodgers at Leicester, despite getting £80 million up front for Maguire, hasn't spent hardly any of that money, but by good coaching has Leicester up to 2nd.

Lampard at Chelsea didn't have a choice whether to spend or not because of Chelsea's transfer ban, but again, because of good coaching and having to play a lot of youngsters, he has got them into a top 4 spot much against all predictions.

All these coaches know how they want their teams to play and, in the case of Rodgers and Lampard, despite having only weeks with their respective clubs prior to the season starting, have their teams playing in a certain style. So it just highlights that you need to have a plan and work on that plan everyday in training.

Tony J Williams
91 Posted 13/11/2019 at 12:53:29
Fuck me, I would not like to be employed by some of you miserable fuckers on here.

He has been with us for about 100 days and was late once for a meeting. well fuck me, let's sack the fucker.

There is a lad on my team that hasn't been on time at this week, no issues.

Before we stone him, is there anyone here that actually has all the facts?

Was he late arriving at the ground for the meeting, or had he been in training and was late coming back to a meeting?

How late was he? etc

Very minor issue and obviously it happened everywhere, hence the media loving the Chelsea Fine Sheet.

It's not as if he was snorting Bolivian marching powder of a prossies tits in Finch Farm is it?

Does he drive? How does he get to the ground? Is it a club car or a taxi fucking Delta I bet you...

I digress

Mark Guglielmo
92 Posted 13/11/2019 at 13:36:54
Kieran @79 100% correct.

The “source” from Italy is Calciomercado, which is completely unreliable. They purchase rumors that already aren’t based on anything remotely factual, with the sole intention of recouping their investment through clicks. More commonly known as “clickbait.”

This is a nothing “story” and Kean isn’t going anywhere, to the chagrin of those who’ve already deemed the lad a donkey.

Kieran Kinsella
95 Posted 13/11/2019 at 13:54:06
Come on Tony we haven’t had a good stoning in ages. Can we at least put him in the sticks?
Mark Guglielmo
96 Posted 13/11/2019 at 13:54:31
Doesn’t home vs Norwich seem like a perfect opportunity to start him and see what he can do (at center forward only, thanks)?

Norwich has a -17 goal differential (-11 away), with opponents accumulating 5 clean sheets. This doesn’t even count their 0-1 away loss to Crawley Town in the League Cup.

Would really love to see what he can do with Iwobi, Davies, Holgate, Sidibé, and maybe even Bernard in the lineup around him.

Rob Marsh
97 Posted 13/11/2019 at 14:08:20
Tony J # 91

It's twice he's been late and that's once too often.

I'm sure the club did its investigation of his reasons for his lateness and found him in the wrong, hence his being left out of the Southampton squad, I doubt Delta taxis has any anything to do with it.

He's got the best job in the world and is paid a lottery win or more each year.

The club is taking the right line, as are many of the fans on here. We've paid £27m, we just can't have a Balotelli or Drenthe on our hands, have a look at what Lampard is doing at Chelsea, well done Frank!

George Carroll
98 Posted 13/11/2019 at 14:51:33
Its nice to know how many saints we have who have never been late for work or are they all retired or maybe they are all on flexi time
Trevor Peers
99 Posted 13/11/2019 at 14:53:00
For £30 million I'd expect Vardy, buying kids is for amateurs, Kean may come good, nobody knows.
We needed goals, this season so buying Kean has to be a bad mistake IMO.
Tony Abrahams
100 Posted 13/11/2019 at 14:53:44
Moise Kean, came here to play football, but he might as well be retired as things stand.
Bill Gall
101 Posted 13/11/2019 at 15:08:34
When Everton stop paying millions for bench warmers regardless of their age, that is when we will be showing progress. I said once before as a joke, why don't they give him some time in the 23 and under, he is only 19.
I wonder if when he was signed if there was a stipulation in his contract that he can only play for the first team.
As for his agent, he should be fined for openly trying to get a contracted player of Everton to another club, Everton will say whether they want to keep him or sell him and to whom. These agents are becoming more and more of a distraction in the running of clubs.
Tony Everan
102 Posted 13/11/2019 at 15:18:49
The club should force him to get a new tatt.

'' I will not be late''

in Sanskrit for the requisite coolness...

Bobby Mallon
103 Posted 13/11/2019 at 15:52:30
Wow some people. Kean signing bad business, brands reputation tainted. Jesus he’s 19 yrs old, with no mates probably finding it hard to speak the lingo and being played out of position. I guess he’s living in a hotel ( I hope not ). This debacle lays at Silvas door. He now has a player who could topple his love child Richarlison from his perch as the main man. If he showed kean as much love then the boy would not strop.
Bobby Mallon
104 Posted 13/11/2019 at 16:06:28
Yes rob marsh have a look at Lampard he’s been forced to play the youngsters FORCED oh and he actually plays them
Jay Harris
106 Posted 13/11/2019 at 16:52:47
Tony J,
This is the second time he has been late at Everton, following a similar incident with the Italian national team.

It suggests a lack of discipline which will not cut it at any professional level.

On the other hand he may be pissed off about the move and trying to engineer a transfer encouraged by that slippery twat Mini Raiola.

Rob Marsh
107 Posted 13/11/2019 at 17:18:37
Bobby Mallon # 103

Bobby, in my 20s I worked abroad in Germany and didn't speak a word to begin with other than "ja", "nein" and "ein bier bitte". I had to get 2 trams to work and was never late. I also managed to get this done on about 1/130 of what he earns.

He's wrapped in cotton wool and pampered all the way to heaven and back. It's all laid on for him, the club has a department that does everything for them especially when they arrive to take the stress off them.

All he has to do is be there on time and as the Italian national side has found out he's let them down, he also has an attitude as well as his new jewellery shown on social media.

Bobby, you will not get one iota of sympathy from me towards him.

John Keating
108 Posted 13/11/2019 at 17:22:31
Latest conspiracy theory I heard.
Juve wouldn't flog him to another Italian team so Raiola saw a big commission selling him to us fools.
Plan was to then sell on from us asap to one of the Milan clubs, a further fat commission for Raiola.
Who said crime doesn't pay ?

Pete Gunby
109 Posted 13/11/2019 at 17:24:50
Could we bring Gazza Back to mind him?
Steavey Buckley
110 Posted 13/11/2019 at 17:56:02
Moise Kean played well for Juventus last season on the left wing where he played well scoring goals and showing a lot pace. But this season he has been played on the right or down the centre but he has not recaptured the same form as last season. In fact, he plays as though he is from the Everton under 23s and unable to play with the same confidence he previously showed.

This is at a time when Everton are short of striking options. In hindsight, Moise should come to Everton on loan because that 25 million could have been better used towards buying a proven striker. It does appear it is going to be a long difficult season for Everton and young Moise.

Gary Carter
111 Posted 13/11/2019 at 18:04:40
Our problem is that we have a rigid ineffective coach who will only play one way, won’t play youths and will force players into his “system”, even worse is that his “system” has never worked in the premiership. His reluctance to play youth also suggests his actual coaching abilities are pretty limited.
The successful coaches in the premier league this season play systems that are their players strengths or expose weaknesses of the opposition, they are also bringing young players through.
It’s really not rocket science as to where our problem with not just Kean bit our whole team lies.

Graeme Beresford
112 Posted 13/11/2019 at 18:20:01
Can’t believe the issues with someone being late for work. Alright he hasn’t set the world alight yet but he’s not exactly starting and when he has he has looked dangerous imo.
Alexander Murphy
113 Posted 13/11/2019 at 18:22:05
At 19 I was still learning My way in the world.
I was fesity, gobby, argumentative, stroppy, opinionated, comical.
I was fragile, didn't know it, but fragile.
I had a decent job with prospects.
I had a respectable income.
I had loving parents, whom I lived with.
I was a happy lad who just loved life.
I loved some things too much.

Not necessarily the most vital things. FFS I WAS NINETEEN !

No-one had ever told Me that I was a good looking lad, that I was brighter than most around Me or that I could do easily what most others My age could struggle with.

I'm 61 and that 19 year old Me could have so much benefited from 61 year old Me giving a guiding hand.

Must be bloody great to see a 19 year old and identify ALL their faults.
Must be even bloody more valuable to see 19 year old and know all the ways to get the most out of that 19 year old.

Far too many of us TW's are just grumpy old men who can pick fault in youngsters.
Not enough are clued up enough to know how to fix their own 19 year old self decades later.

I hope to heaven that someone at FF can sling an arm round Keans shoulder to make him a better man and a great footballer in the process.
Certainly a better man than many TW grumpies.

Eddie Dunn
114 Posted 13/11/2019 at 18:31:21
I would like to know whether Silva was consulted before Kean was brought in. Was it Brands idea?
Secondly the lad has been played out of position as have many others in our squad due to injuries and tactics.
Now I am not a huge Silva fan, and have been one of his critics but I also like to think that I appreciate him when he does things right.
Indeed, his selections hav often been lauded pre-match, but the system and substitutes have been criticised post match.
However, as I have no idea exactly what really happened with Kean, any comment would be hypothetical.
I do recall though, that many ToffeeWebbers have been asking for a manager who would kick ass when dealing with his pampered players. Yes, by all means put an arm round them, read them Proust before coming off the bench, but when they break the rules, give them a kick up the arse.
Silva might sort this mess out, and I hope (for Steve Ferns sake) as well as Everton's, that he does. The side down at Southampton showed some togetherness. Perhaps we have had our "Oxford" moment?
but Silva is the manager and I back him over the young lad, who, I hope will learn his lesson.
By the way, I can't believe we have another 10 days before we play Norwich. Bloody international football!
Paul Jeronovich
115 Posted 13/11/2019 at 18:39:38
The kids 19, has apologised and lessons to be learnt. He’ll be fine.
James Hughes
116 Posted 13/11/2019 at 18:44:58
Alex #113, a great post, At nineteen you are still learning about the world and more importantly, who you are.
It can't be easy to move to another country at that age when you are still learning your craft. I turned down the chance at that age and stayed in England.
Much harder when you have a big price-tag and big expectations set against your name
Mark Guglielmo
117 Posted 13/11/2019 at 18:47:31
Steavey @110 Kean never not once played as a wing for Juventus. He was a CF 100% of the time. He did play LW twice for Italy but that was it.

Alexander @113 I love you for saying this. Amazing the level of judgment being levied at the kid!

Alexander Murphy
118 Posted 13/11/2019 at 18:49:11
Thanks James.
Steve Ferns
119 Posted 13/11/2019 at 19:55:56
Jay Wood, many thanks for the link to the clip of Flamengo in action. It was great to see. I can tell you are a big fan of Gabigol. What is it about him that makes you think he’d be a success, a bargain even?

My worry with him is that he appears to be thriving at a lower level, which the Brazilian Serie A undoubtedly is (when compared to the Italian Serie A). I see a very creative and technically good player who is best as a number 9. If you were to play him as a number 9, especially as a lone centre froward, then does he have enough about him. He’s not particularly fast. He’s not particularly strong. He’s quite small (5’9”). I think that when he moves up to a higher level he just finds defences to easily able to snuff him out.

So can he play as a number 10, moving deeper into a Gylfi type role and pull the strings. He’s got a lot flicks and tricks and maybe he can use this to create space for himself a bit deeper and then play the killer passes for someone like Richarlison.

That said, I’ve not seen enough of the lad and maybe I’ve got him wrong?

Steve Carse
120 Posted 13/11/2019 at 20:13:41
John (108), I believe that's close to the truth. Raiola is a dealer. He only looks after himself. I'd imagine too that he'd have given Moise to Everton on an understanding that he'll be taking him back in a year or two's time, whether he makes it here or not.
Steavey (110), this is why a loan deal would have been a non-starter.
Mike Allen
121 Posted 13/11/2019 at 20:16:26
Why did we buy this player how many times did scouts look at this young boy to warrant a £27 million gamble, he's not even one for the future will we get two seasons out of him if he lives (lived) up to his potential ? I don't think so. it would have been more sensible to give an academy player a run from the bench or give a chance to a proven goal scorer from the lower leagues We've wasted millions on mediocre players and costing us millions trying to get shut and yet we keep hearing we have talent coming through the academy give them the same chance as Kean it would be a gamble but not costing us millions and the players would have some idea of what it means to play for Everton FC
Jeff Spiers
122 Posted 13/11/2019 at 20:19:19
Alex @113. A great post. I'm 67, and at 19 was just like you. Unfortunately, we can't go back. I only wish someone would have kicked me up the backside
Christy Ring
123 Posted 13/11/2019 at 20:28:27
He's only 19, in a different country, he apologised, needs a bit of guidance, and a father figure to take him under his wing.
Don Alexander
124 Posted 13/11/2019 at 20:32:12
Well said Alex (#113). The boy needs support, albeit perhaps a modest clip round the ear-hole on this occasion too.

By the way, you're admission "I was feisty, gobby, argumentative, stroppy, opinionated, comical" seems to sum up one or two very well known grumpy old TWers of the present-day!

Rob Marsh
125 Posted 13/11/2019 at 20:34:12
Christy # 123

When his behaviour was the same back in Italy, what would you have advised for him there?

Andrew Dempsey
126 Posted 13/11/2019 at 20:45:07
Maybe he’s got that Time/Space/Logic disorder thing, where you struggle to get anywhere on time. Convenient condition for unemployed, artistic types, usually.

I think he should have started the opening game at Palace, and every game since then. We wouldn’t have been in a worse position than we are now. Who knows, we might be in a slightly better one?
And, the lad would be ten games wiser at Premier League level.
It comes down to, does the manager believe in you? This smacks of a Brands bargain signing that he couldn’t resist making, but maybe Silva wasn’t sure about.

Look at Abraham at Chelsea, and the abuse he was getting after a couple of games, but Lampard stuck with him, believed in him.
If you haven’t got that as a striker, it’s not going to happen for you.
The thing is, we don’t know if he’s any good, that’s what’s annoying, give him 5-10 games in a row, let’s see what we’ve bought.

Roman Sidey
127 Posted 13/11/2019 at 21:20:38
Spot on, Alex. Especially about the grumps on here. I honestly believe some fans have just been waiting with baited breath for Kean to have some sort of off field issue with which to write him off.

Some people want a squad full of Jagielkas and Baines because "back in my day players had respect". Yes, players should toe the line and follow the rules, but rules are there because sometimes they're broken, and often times it's the players who are a little less regimented who have the special talents.

People harping on about "Lampard's rules at Chelsea" and suggesting Everton should implement this... firstly, do you honestly think those rules are new since he took over, and secondly, do you think Everton don't have similar rules at the club? Most sides do. A quick google search can show this.

Ian Smith
128 Posted 13/11/2019 at 21:34:43
Give the kid a run of games. Start him and bring him off the bench for at least 20-25 minutes. People then feel free to judge him until then he is a kid on one of the biggest football stages in the world cut him some slack, have some consideration. Build on his positives, encourage him to do more with the positives challenge his weaknesses.

I remember my first task as an analyst was to produce a report on Doug Howlett for the coach, on video and the stats board he was poor. The coach highlighted this called them bad choices, poorly segmented play, told him to go and work on stats to get them up. He did and made the world take note of his performances.

He then ran all over car roofs, putting his foot through a convertible! Sometimes people in the public let off a lot of steam and things get covered – it does not make them bad people or worse players.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

130 Posted 13/11/2019 at 22:16:13
Yep Steve @ 119, you've got Gabigol well wrong. And I'm surprised that you of all people flag up his perceived 'deficiences'.

Let me work through your points.

1) the lower level Brazilian Serie A v Italian Serie A.

The major European leagues are stronger, without question. That said, the Brazilian league is so extremely competitive that not even the mega clubs dominate as is the case in Europe.

Palmeiras - the all-time record holder with 10 titles - waited 23 years until 2016 when (with Yerry Mina) they won title #9.

Gabigol's Flamengo - arguably the nation's best supported club - has just 5 titles, but thanks to the #9's 21 goals (and counting) they are rapidly closing in on title #6, as well as reaching the final of the South American CL equivalent, the Libertadores (in which he's scored 7 goals in 11 games).

To further put his goal scoring in perspective, the Brazilian league is a surprisingly low-scoring one. They are RUTHLESS in defence. Either the ball or the man gets past a defender, but seldom both!

In the 48 seasons in its current format, only 10 players have scored more than Gabigol's 21 goals. He should overhaul some of those before season's end.

IMO it's totally unjust to claim as you do that he can't cut it in Europe. It's all the more ironic that you do so on the thread about the 19-year-old Moise Kean who is yet to score or shine in his 11 appearances for Everton. Those 11 games alone (without counting Kean's Serie A appearances) surpass the limited game time Gabigol got in Europe.

Gabigol was a wunderkind signed by Inter, barely aged 20. He scored just one goal in 9 mostly sub appearances for them, plus a single game on loan to Benfica. He simply hasn't been given a chance in Europe to show case his skills.

He is a completely different person, never mind player, to the one that first landed in Italy

Back on loan with a struggling Santos last year, his 18 goals lifted them away from the relegation zone to mid-table safety. This season, again on loan, he is the pivotal player that has lifted Flamengo to dizzying heights.

2) his skill set.

Part of this you get right. He is a very creative and technically good player. Number 9 - a modern-type #9 - is definitely his best position.

It would be foolhardy in the extreme and a total negation of his talents to drop him back into a #10 role as you suggest.

How he plays #9 would very much suit the way you say Silva wants us to play.

Think Sergio Aguero, or his namesake and fellow countryman Gabriel Jesus.

Yes. He could be THAT good.

Again, to play him as a static, lone number 9, would be a total waste of his talents.

As well as his goals, a great feature of his game is his movement across the width of the front line, including coming deeper to draw out his marker.

He literally never stops. I advise anyone interested to watch him play over the 90 minutes in next week's Libertadores final to get a notion of this aspect of his game.

As for your assessment that "He’s not particularly fast", that rather depends on what you are assessing.

In a straight sprint against truly quick players, he may come second. But it's misleading to think he is 'slow'.

Where he is lightning quick - and where you want your main striker to be quick - is in his head, instinct and reactions in and around the penalty area.

One on one with a defender, more times than not, he will get the yard or two on his marker and get the shot away.

He knows his angles and where he is in relation to the goal. This speed of thought and shot placement regularly catches the goalkeeper flat footed, unable to prevent a goal.

You claim he is not particularly strong. For a traditional #9 that would be right. But the implication in your claim is that physically he is not fit for purpose to play in the PL.

Would you say the same of the two City players I compare him to? I would argue his (marginally) shorter status and his low centre of gravity (he seldom loses his feet), like Aguero and Jesus, could work very much in his favour in the PL.

To get a notion of what I describe above check out his goal compilation video from this season. Not all his goals are included.

But it clearly shows his alertness in the box, how he gets in behind defenders, an awareness of his angles, playing the right shot for each situation.

In addition to the above, also note his 'boxer pose' goal celebration. Often he also imitates the CR7 celebration, the moving palms down, the pointing to himself then to the ground, effectively saying: "stay calm folks. I'm here. I've got this."

The crowd, his team mates, LOVE this (merited!) 'Cock-of-the-north' swagger he has. And so, I believe, would Evertonians. How long is it that we've had such a cocksure player in a Blue shirt? Sadly, I don't believe it's going to happen.

You don't think he could transfer those skills to the PL Steve? Well I do.

The 23 million euros quoted is an absolute steal, IMO.

His goals (incomplete):
Link

Dick Fearon
131 Posted 13/11/2019 at 22:47:02
There must be a point where regardless of talent or in this case potential wherebye enough is enough.
Over the years this club has been taken to the cleaners by clubs that were handsomely rewarded when offloading the likes of Andy van der Meyde,, Roston Drenthe and a gaggle of other sick notes. They must have sniggered at the sheer gullability of Everton.
I include many of our fans in that comment.

Right up to their final payout there were those on here who begged them to get another chance.
My advice to those soft hearted deludes is grow up and recognise things as they are and not as they want them to be.
Based upon his few appearances I am yet to be convinced that he can make a go of it in the PL. Should we not have a few players in our academy of similar age and comparable skill I would be disapointed.


Mike Doyle
132 Posted 13/11/2019 at 22:47:10
Just watched the clip of the 84/85 squad gathering to watch the Howard Kendall film on the Everton website.
Most of those gathered for the team photo are easy to recognise, however there is a guy on the front row in a checked shirt and a shaven/bald headed guy in the centre that I cannot place.
Can anyone put names to them?
Steve Ferns
133 Posted 13/11/2019 at 22:55:06
Thanks Jay. As I said, not seen much of the guy. Couple of highlights here and there, mainly from his time in Italy where he barely played. I’d be excited about the lad if he was signing for us, after what you’ve said. You don’t get carried away easily so he must really be good. Pity we’re not in for him then.
Mike Doyle
134 Posted 13/11/2019 at 23:01:52
Jay’s. just read your post and flicked through the video link. Difficult to tell from the short clips, but he seems to play in a side that has more than one advanced attacker - indeed a few of the goals are following up the initial effort of another player.
If that means he operates best in a 442 or a team that gets lots of support into the box he’d probably struggle in Silva’s system. Is that a fair assessment?
Sam Hoare
135 Posted 13/11/2019 at 23:12:17
Jay@130 I’m with you. Think he’d be an absolute bargain at that price. But there’s no rumours at all of it happening that I’ve seen are there?

I suspect our three strikers for the mid term will be Richarlison, Kean and Calvert-Lewin with possibly a Giroud type coming in on loan. I think the first 3 will do ok so long as we carry on creating chances as we have in the last few matches.

Tom Bowers
136 Posted 13/11/2019 at 23:35:04
I figured something was wrong here. The lad wants to play but seems to have an attitude (ala Ballotelli) as he has acted up before at Juve.
It could just be his youth and as we all know we want everything to happen overnight but he looks like he has all the attributes to succeed under the right boss.
Everton haven't exactly set the world alight this season with goals and even Richarlison has been found wanting in many games.
Milan seem interested in going after him again in January if we are to believe reports but even so it would appear he is pissed off with Silva like many others. Time will tell.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

137 Posted 13/11/2019 at 23:38:44
Mike @ 134.

No Mike. Flamengo's tactics are in fact similar to Silva's Everton. Indeed, they are managed by the Portuguese ex-Benfica manager Jorge Jesus (who took them to two losing consecutive UEFA cup finals) before controversially crossing the road to manage arch rivals Sporting, replacing - ahem! - Marco Silva.

Ask Steve Ferns for his opinion of Jorge Jesus. I fancy it won't be flattering! But he has already reached Demigod status with Flamengo fans. If he completes a league and Libertadores double in the next week, it will be move over, Zeus!

Do you remember the away game at Leicester last season? When Silva first went with a frontline of Bernard-Richarlison-Walcott with Siggy behind them? Do you recall the constant changing of position of all four and just how stretched Leicester were?

We really looked as if we had hit on something a wee bit special that day.

Well Flamengo play in a similar style, but ALL the time unlike stuttering Everton.

They have Everton Ribeiro orchestrating things in the Siggy role, then up front is Gabigol with 21 goals, Bruno Henrique 16 goals (remember the name and keep an eye on him) and Arrascaeta - a Uruguayan international - with 11 goals.

Pretty potent, eh? Basically, if one of them don't getcha, one of the other two will.

Gabigol is great at timing his run on the shoulder of the last defender. The ponderous sideways passing we see too much of at Everton would not serve him well. The quicker more incisive passing we have seen glimpses of and he would absolutely milk it.

But it ain't gonna happen, alas.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

138 Posted 13/11/2019 at 23:48:08
Sam @ 135.

As I said in an earlier post, Renier Jesus signed a contract extension at the weekend (to 2024) with a higher release clause.

In the last 24 hours it's being reported that Inter, Flamengo and Gabigol are close to agreeing a 24 million euros fee to turn the loan into a permanent deal.

Absolutely ZERO mention of other interested parties.

Just turned 23 in August. Lots more to come from the boy IMO.

How about offering a swap deal with Inter for Kean and Gabigol to swap places???!!!

Just putting it out there, folks!

Brian Wilkinson
139 Posted 14/11/2019 at 00:09:24
Mike@132, is it the physio John Clinkcard aka magnum?
Brian Wilkinson
140 Posted 14/11/2019 at 00:11:13
The other one it took a while to work out next to Alan Harper I think is Kevin Richardson.
Andy Crooks
141 Posted 14/11/2019 at 00:35:54
Roman @127. Perhaps I am a grump. However, Moisie has so much to learn. I think he is a special talent and can be a success for us. There are testing skills that he must acquire and I believe we must be patient with him. You know what, though, here's an easy skill to learn. Be on fucking time. No excuse, be on time. Manners and respect.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

142 Posted 14/11/2019 at 02:48:17
Flamengo and Vasco da Gama have just completed a humdinger of a game that ended 4-4.

No goals for Gabigol, but 2 more for Bruno Henrique taking him to 18 just 3 behind Gabigol's 21.

Oh to have two players giving us that sort of goal return, eh?

Roman Sidey
143 Posted 14/11/2019 at 05:16:19
Andy @ 141, like I said, I can't stand tardiness, but I'm also not about to crucify a young player for it. Fine/punish him as is the code, which seems to have been done, but too many people are ready to bin him off because they've read that he's been late a couple of times. I have a sneaking suspicion that if he was a young English player hardly any of these fans would give a shit.

Anthony A Hughes
144 Posted 14/11/2019 at 06:53:11
Perhaps we're seeing some pointers as to why Juve binned him off. Hopefully he matures to become the player we all hope he can be.
Robert Workman
145 Posted 14/11/2019 at 07:13:09
Can anyone see Silva playing Kean alongside DCL? Surely until he does we will never see if he can perform for Everton in his natural position.
Eddie Dunn
146 Posted 14/11/2019 at 08:23:42
Robert- the same could be said for poor Tosun too. These guys need a partner, and I don't mean Siggy getting there in his zimmer 5 minutes late.
Brian Williams
147 Posted 14/11/2019 at 08:30:01
IMO Kean needs to start against Norwich after the international break (if he's doing it in training). Bottom of the table team, it would seem a perfect way to kill THREE birds with one stone. Give the lad a chance to perform against a side where he'll have a chance to shine, deter the media vultures from "moving" him come January and lastly show that the disciplinary thing is now something that's been dealt with but something everyone's moved on from.
Nicholas Ryan
148 Posted 14/11/2019 at 08:42:02
I think Kean, with his little disciplinary cameos, may be a perfect example, of why the word Genius is so often preceded, by the word Troubled!
Sam Hoare
149 Posted 14/11/2019 at 09:37:58
I'd not be so worried by the tardiness thing if he was nailing it on the pitch. Think I heard once that Kante is constantnly being fined for tardiness at Chelsea. But when repetitive tardiness is combined with a failure to produce on the pitch it begins to look like a more worrying picture.

Still a very young lad and he should certainly get the benefit of the doubt from the club and the fans but in my mind there are two types of players out there: The ones who, when in bad form or not getting opportunities double down and work twice as hard (see Tosun?) and the ones who let their heads drop a bit and take their foot of the accelerator (see Lookman?). I hope Kean will prove to be the former but if this type of behaviour is repeated you'd have to think the latter seems more applicable.

Darren Hind
150 Posted 14/11/2019 at 09:54:05
Don Alexander @124

You need the Fiesty Gobby Opinionated argumentative posters on here.

What else would the boring, hypocritical, repetitive, nothing-to-say, arl quilts do for excitement? It's not as if people would queue up to go for a bevy with them, is it?

"Clip around the ear hole"? – Do you have any idea what you sound like?

I'll make a deal with you: You volunteer to drive to Finch Farm and teach young Kean a lesson by giving him a clip around the ear... and I'll volunteer to sweep your teeth up.

Brian Williams
151 Posted 14/11/2019 at 10:03:20
Darren. Maybe he'd just take em out before he administered said "clip round the lughole"? :-)
Brian Porter
152 Posted 14/11/2019 at 16:48:30
Brian Williams #147, Totally agree with you. Norwich is a perfect opportunity for Kean to show what he can do. If Silva has any faith in his younger players this is a good time to show it.
Christy Ring
153 Posted 14/11/2019 at 19:46:10
Why doesn't Silva play Kean in his proper position beside Calvert-Lewin?

Even play Tosun beside Dominic, and see how it works.

Dick Fearon
154 Posted 14/11/2019 at 21:56:57
As with most youngsters, Kean would have had intensive coaching since primary school. At 20 or more years old, they should be ready to debut in the first team.

Any doubts about their ability to handle pressure should have been dealt with very early in the piece. If they are not worthy of first-team duties, I would have reservations about the quality of their coaches.

Jamie Crowley
155 Posted 14/11/2019 at 22:23:58
Positivity -

Kean starts against Norwich. Scores in the first 5 minutes. Races over to Marco to give him a hug instead of celebrating.

I was livid Kean didn't make the bench against Southampton. I'd prefer to see the kid playing - a lot. I think he has oodles of raw talent.

If he was late, and the manager deemed he should be punished, that's the end of it for me. It's called responsibility. A lesson many a 19-year-old needs to learn.

Paul Birmingham
156 Posted 14/11/2019 at 22:24:10
Let's give Moise a start vs Norwich, we need to galvanise the spirit going into our toughest fixture run of the season.

This episode will hopefully inspire a Moise to widen up and get fully focused on playing for Everton and being successful at Everton.

Jeff Armstrong
157 Posted 15/11/2019 at 19:20:51
All the noises from Kean's camp this week point to a January departure, even his dad has come out today and said he should go back to the racist Serie A.

Lack of game time, disciplinary issues, cold weather kicking in, messed about with positionally? Plus, tbh, when he has played, he's not exactly set the world on fire from any position, has he?

I think this is the beginning of the end for Kean's Everton career: loan in January; season-long loan next summer, and then an £18 million loss on our initial outlay.

Steve Ferns
158 Posted 15/11/2019 at 19:26:55
I note this article has been updated and says he missed the Southampton game and did not travel?

Are we sure this is the case? I saw a picture of him at what looked like St Mary's. I was sure he was there. This makes me somewhat confused.

Paul Tran
159 Posted 15/11/2019 at 19:29:05
I wouldn't be too concerned about what Kean's Dad says. They've been estranged for years and Moise has apparently regularly slated him in the Italian press.

I'd be more concerned about Silva's reluctance to pick him. We'll only know if he's good enough by seeing him on the pitch.

Steve Ferns
160 Posted 15/11/2019 at 19:34:05
Paul, how many games has Kean missed? Silva has picked him a lot. Kean has not taken the opportunities offered and Silva has taken a short-term view as his own future has come ahead of Kean's.

It's also often said that you should blood kids in a winning team rather than a losing one.

Paul Tran
161 Posted 15/11/2019 at 19:52:15
I agree with your point about blooding youngsters in a winning team, Steve. I would argue that there's a difference between a kid straight out of the Under-21s and a young player who has scored for Juventus and Italy.

I'm all for patience with Kean, but he won't get experience sitting on the bench.

Steve Ferns
162 Posted 15/11/2019 at 19:58:26
Paul, he’s either started or come off the bench in all but two or three games. This incident shows that there’s other issues here too.

Let’s hope he comes off the bench with enough time to get a goal at home to Norwich and then his career takes off.

I believe in the kid. He’s better than he’s showed us so far. I hope he can knuckle down and prove himself on the training pitch.

Paul Tran
163 Posted 15/11/2019 at 20:04:59
If he doesn't play him against Norwich, Steve, who will he play him against?
Steve Ferns
164 Posted 15/11/2019 at 20:20:17
I'd play him, Paul. But they might think he needs some time out of the limelight or to really prove himself.
Tony Abrahams
165 Posted 15/11/2019 at 20:27:14
I’m hope he’s played when he’s ready, and not just for the sake of it.
Tony Hill
166 Posted 15/11/2019 at 20:28:47
I think the reports of Kean's father's comments are worrying. It's all starting to look a bit ramshackle, to be honest.

It'll be a test for Silva and Brands, especially Brands who, given his public display when Kean signed, has something to salvage here.

Jason Wilkinson
167 Posted 15/11/2019 at 20:32:01
Silva wants to play 4-3-3. That means two of three need to play wide. With the other players we have, Kean either plays as the centre-forward (which I don't think he is strong enough) or wide.

I think he needs to outshine Theo in training to get a start. Silva doesn't see it at the moment.

Unfortunately we are generally crap at the moment so it will be hard for Kean to get in the starting eleven. He will have to prove himself from the bench.

Versus Norwich, I would start Calvert-Lewin and hopefully we have put them to bed by half-time. Kean could get half a game and give himself a chance of showing us what all the fuss is about.

Brian Williams
168 Posted 15/11/2019 at 20:36:37
Tony #166.

I think the reports of Kean's dad's comments are probably complete and utter shite mate.

Tony Hill
169 Posted 15/11/2019 at 20:39:37
Let's hope so, Brian. I'm not worried about his dad as such, but the reporting of the comments and the mess that is starting to grow around the boy are concerning in my view. I still have high hopes for him.
Steve Ferns
170 Posted 15/11/2019 at 20:43:38
Don’t pay any attention to Kean’s Dad. Moise Kean doesn’t so why should we? Remember the tractor story? Moise said his dad was talking crap. So why listen to him now?

Link

Tony Hill
171 Posted 15/11/2019 at 20:51:21
What worries me is that the whole situation is looking ragged, Steve. Noise of this sort has a nasty habit of containing a nugget of truth or pointing to a truth.

As I say, it's a test for Brands particularly. I very much hope we get the player firing, of course.

Jay Harris
174 Posted 15/11/2019 at 20:51:29
Brian,

They are being reported by The Sun so that supports your view. Utter shite.

I think the lad needs time to adjust to the speed and fitness levels required in the Premier League but he seems to have the basics sorted.

I would love to see him score against Norwich but feel that may be too soon for him.

Phil Sammon
175 Posted 15/11/2019 at 20:55:58
I think Kean is suffering from Silva's weird trait of delaying substitutions.

Every manager looks to make changes around the 60-minute mark. If anything, there should have to be a very good reason NOT to make a substitution, rather than the other way around.

You can understand the difficulty blooding a young centre-half, but a promising (and expensive) forward really shouldn't be struggling for minutes.

Steve Ferns
176 Posted 15/11/2019 at 21:00:41
Kean doesn't speak to his Dad though. So what does his Dad's opinion matter? He'd say anything for the money, as evidenced by the crap he came out with in the past.

Significantly, Kean's Dad confirms he has never met Mino Raiola. This shows how much influence he has over his son when he doesn't speak to Kean's main advisor! He also doesn't speak to Kean's mum.

Tony Hill
177 Posted 15/11/2019 at 21:08:02
Once again, Steve, I'm not worried about dad who does seem a rambling and unreliable sort. It's the fact that the "narrative" around Kean looks like spinning out of our control and these things have a habit of fuelling themselves. It's for Brands to snuff it out and get a grip of the Kean situation.

We dismiss this sort of stuff about young players like Kean at our peril.

I hope you and others are right and that it's all just nonsense.

Steve Ferns
178 Posted 15/11/2019 at 21:12:56
Tony, we didn't spend that much on Kean (by comparison to today's transfer fees) and if we sold him in the coming summer, I would expect us to get our cash back. It's hardly a Shandy Andy situation where the lad left for a free and our investment was flushed down the toilet.

I repeat, though, I still expect the lad to come good. Patience is the key here, and the lad himself needs it as much as we do.

Jamie Crowley
179 Posted 15/11/2019 at 22:07:45
Part of the kid's issue might be - might - the fact he's playing sporadically, out wide, subbed into games usually in a losing cause, and being asked to slot goals in a faltering side. He might be frustrated? Hell, I would be!

He's 19. He may have been put into games, but very few of them have been in the best circumstances for a 19-year-old kid to succeed. See Mark's comments at #32.

Who's the future of this Club? Cenk Tosun? Theo Walcott? Or Moise Kean?

I'd be playing this kid, riding out the bumps and immaturity, and getting him clicking. That's where a lot of this fault lies, whether he's been late for meetings or not. Again, the tardiness needs to be addressed. And to Marco's credit, he's issued the lesson of responsibility.

But to ignore or dismiss the fact he's been played in pretty crap situations, or out wide, for me, isn't seeing the entire picture.

Play the kid all the time. Give him an entire 80 to 90 minutes three to four games in a row, leading the line. Then we'll have treated him right, and we'll all know what the kid is capable of.

Until that time, we're messing with our £35 million investment. And on that note, I can think of 35 million reasons why he deserves a better shake! Late or not!

Tony Abrahams
180 Posted 15/11/2019 at 22:28:11
Can’t argue with your analysis Jamie, but if your job was under real pressure, would you just go and give the kid 3 or 4 matches on the spin, unless you thought he was definitely ready for the EPL?

It’s a tough one because the kid needs to play for his sanity, (I’m sure it would definitely be the best remedy to combat homesickness) he needs to play to keep people off the managers back, (hasn’t got a fuckin clue that Silva) but he’s no use playing unless he’s ready, and maybe Everton and Silva are actually being professional by not rushing the kid along until he adapts?

Jamie Crowley
181 Posted 15/11/2019 at 22:28:50
I think most people would be happy (thrilled) with this lineup against Norwich:

Pickford
Sidibe Holgate Mina Digne
Delph Davies
Iwobe
Richarlison Kean Calvert-Lewin

That's Holgate, Davies, Iwobe, Rich, Kean and Calvert-Lewin in the lineup. The future.

That's 23, 21, 23, 22, 19, and 22 years old respectively. Average age of those six = 21.6 years old. All with talent, and all could win at this level in my opinion. Keep those six together, ride out the bumps, and watch them gel into something special. A CB (other one is 25 years old by the way), two midfielders, and your entire front line.

That's the future Moise Kean needs to be a part of.

Additional comment - Tony you posted while I was typing. The best way to get Kean ready is to play the kid. Ask Frank Lampard how that's working out for him? Silva needs to grow a pair and go young for the future. Schneiderlin, Cenk, and Theo hold no long-term hope.

Tony Abrahams
182 Posted 15/11/2019 at 22:40:09
Agree with those players not offering any long term hope Jamie, and I’ve had problems with Silva playing Keane and Schneiderlin all season mate. Holgate and Davies have definitely been an improvement on those two, so hopefully Kean, can adapt and do the same.

Lampard, Lampard, Lampard, give it a few months and hopefully he’s still doing a great job, because I like the football his team are playing, but football is all about flavours of the month, and I honestly wouldn’t have expected Kean, to fly in and set the world on fire, and I think too many have had Moise down as their flavour of the month since he signed, but you’ve got to be ready to play in this league, and “Lampard’s kids” are not strangers to English football Jamie, unlike our own kid Kean.

Steve Ferns
183 Posted 15/11/2019 at 22:46:49
Jamie, thought you meant our academy players. So edited this.

Kean, hasn’t shown enough to lead the line. He has had starts and he didn’t show enough. We need wins right now. So he needs to be on the bench.

The rest of your side, Kean aside, plays regularly so what’s the issue?

Oh and on Kean, he’s not ready. He was terrible against Watford. Yeah, he played too wide and too deep. The reason for that is because he wants to run onto the ball. The only way to get that space is to play wide. Otherwise he’s getting it back to goal and he’s not very good at that. His touch has been very poor.

I think he’s better against tired legs off the bench. Not for 5 or 10 minutes but for 20 or even 30. And why play Calvert-Lewin wide? You want him central to get the ball and create the space for the wide players to run into. Which is how richarlison thrives.

Jeff Armstrong
184 Posted 15/11/2019 at 23:05:19
Chat shit, he's off.
Tony Hill
185 Posted 15/11/2019 at 23:34:58
Sorry if this has been mentioned elsewhere but there's a fine interview (more of a monologue actually) with Neville Southall on Toffee TV as of yesterday. He talks about the longer term, including Kean.

Jeff @184 may be right but I like Nev's thinking generally. I agree, in particular, that we haven't yet found our catalyst on the pitch, the Peter Reid figure. He also relies upon the fact that Moshiri hasn't come here to get relegated.

Nev for PM.

Jamie Crowley
186 Posted 16/11/2019 at 01:17:19
Steve -

Hang on there just a sec.
The rest of your side, Kean aside, plays regularly so what's the issue?

Holgate has not played until recently, only down to some horrendous form from Keane. Forced move.

Davies only played through injury. Forced move.

Iwobi played out wide, when Sigurdsson was faltering terribly. Moved him to the No 10 position in like our 9th game there or thereabouts? Everyone with eyes saw we needed an injection at that position, Marco dallied.
[Suicidal honesty: I'd been calling for Bernard at No 10 for months prior to Iwobi, but I'd stand by my basic premise that Sigurdsson needed dropping badly; Bernard or Iwobi, whoever fit best.]

Calvert-Lewin finally shows some form, and has been rewarded with in-and-out appearances, nothing regular.

Richarlison plays, he's Marco's boy, I'll give you that.

Kean... see above.

Marco hasn't been playing any of these kids regularly at all... and, in the case of Iwobi, was sticking him out wide too long.

Yes, I'd play Calvert-Lewin wide, out of position. He's better suited for it than Kean from what I've seen, and I'd prefer to see them both in the lineup. If Calvert-Lewin falters out wide, or Kean in the middle, that's when I'd go with experience and stick Theo in. Marco does it in reverse, if he does it at all.

USA 3, Canada 0 at HT. Just in case you were curious.

These kids should be our core, starting just about every game, not coming on at subs or cameo appearances. Due to our skint line-up, thanks to injuries, Marco is backing into this slowly but surely. But a progressive manager with an eye to the future would have been seeing this as his core the entire season.

If everyone were healthy or actually at the Club, I'd set up this way:

Pickford
Kenny Holgate Mina Digne
Gbamin Davies
Iwobi
Richarlison Kean Bernard

I'd bring Calvert-Lewin in for any of the front 3 and shuffle positions if any of the front 3 weren't effective, or if they tired. Anyone out of form would be replaced. Sigurdsson off the bench to change a game in midfield. I don't include Gomes because he'll be out for a long, long time, and God knows if he'll ever be the same player.

The above would be, I believe, 9 out of 11 players aged 25 or younger. Stick with a core of young players, and ride them all the way to Bramley-Moore Dock.

I'm also not averse to a 4-2-3-1, like so many are on TW, but that's another conversation for another time. You can figure out where they'd slot in, in that formation.

Steve Ferns
187 Posted 16/11/2019 at 01:29:55
Jamie, everything he does wrong is wrong, and everything he does right is down to luck. Unbelievable. You wait a few years and you will hear from Holgate and Davies about what Silva has done for them.

Kean is not ready. You cannot force him to be ready. You need to be patient. I've watched him closely and the boy is talented, and I have no doubt he will come good. But he is a 19-year-old kid. He doesn't speak (enough) English.

His touch is heavy. He finds he has no time on the ball. He does not like having defenders right up his arse when he gets the ball. He wants it to feet and he wants to take people on. He needs space and he can have more space wide, or later in games when they have become stretched.

Silva is handling the boy fine. It would be easier for Silva to play him weak in, weak out, show you he's not ready, wreck the lad's confidence and then point the finger at Brands and say "I asked for a striker who is ready for the now."

It's brilliant how we're all experts and Silva is an absolute moron, and Moshiri is a moron. And if Moshiri wakes up and sacks Silva then he can just hire Mourinho, and Brands can just sign Diego Costa and suddenly we will be top 4 overnight.

The team Silva picks is very young. Young teams are erratic. There is no leadership for the young players to look up to and follow. The big players keep getting injured. We can have no consistency as a result.

Just be patient. It will all click into place very soon, the signs are there. We are going to have a great run into Christmas and the season will take off from there.

John Pierce
188 Posted 16/11/2019 at 02:02:19
Jamie,

Pretty decent set of posts there. I have to say, I agree with the outlook you've set out.

In particular, the rather poor use of Kean (especially the way we play makes life much harder for the lad) and Silva allowed several players in the team to drive themselves completely out of form before fate lent a hand. Coleman, Sigurdsson and Keane were floundering and he kept picking them.

Nearly every concern from preseason has been laid bare and taken Silva some time to dawn on the changes.

If he continues to pick Sigurdsson over Iwobi at no10 he's cutting his own throat. He now has a blend/combination of the right attributes at centre back, with the added pace of Sidibé who is streets ahead of Coleman.

Bit the bottom line is Silva is still very much week to week. Many, including myself, have tapped out on the lad. Silva ain't in a job because Brands has faith, it's because he's found no-one better... yet.

Derek Thomas
189 Posted 16/11/2019 at 08:46:36
Steve @ 187; not a negative wave to be seen there, Oddball would be proud of you... I hope you're right.
John Cook
190 Posted 16/11/2019 at 09:05:34
Haven't read all the comments above but Kean must have something about him if a host of top teams are presumably taking an interest in him, the latest being Real Madrid.

Just fuckin' play the kid!

Darren Hind
191 Posted 16/11/2019 at 09:55:12
Jamie @179

Playing youngsters out of position and asking them to rescue a struggling team is not new to Everton.

Not since Joe Royle can I remember a young forward coming into a good confident Everton team because the manager chose him on what he believed to be merit.

James Vaughan, Victor Anichebe, Danny Cadamateri, Wayne Rooney, are just a few names I could mention.

For over 30 years, we didn't have the money to pay for the top ready-made marksmen (except maybe Yakubu) so all of these then kids got to hear the words "Go and win it for me, son" from desperate managers.

It's not just the strikers: Tom Davies and Jack Rodwell were also "thrown in".

Okay, we all knew Rooney was that good and that he was coming about 5 years before he actually got here... but the others? They were at that age when people were asking "Will they, can they, go all the way?" In fact, they were even younger than Kean when they were being asked to play in unfamiliar positions.

You never know which way it will go. I asked myself: Did introducing these kids at 17 and 18 actually help them?

Vaughany was good enough, but he was so young and exuberant. He simply could not stop injuring himself going for balls that he was never going to get.

Big Vic had everything. A look at his YouTube clips when he was rampaging around Europe would have made you think he was a future world-beater... but THAT shithouse challenge from the Gobshite whose name I can't even say at St James didn't just break his leg – it planted demons in his head he could never rid himself of. Vic's top-flight career was to all intents and purpose ended that day.

Jack Rodwell had the the purists purring. He was just majestic... but the desire he showed when getting to the top deserted him as soon as he got there.

It's an age-old argument. When do you put them in and when do you wrap them up? Very few players can come in at a young age and forge a long successful career.

Would Vaughany have fulfilled his potential if he was held back until he had learned to calm down? Would Big Vic have seen the shithouse coming if he was a little more streetwise? Would Jack Rodwell have retained his hunger if it was all made a little harder for him?

That oft-repeated claim that "If you are good enough, you're old enough" may not be the dumbest claim I've ever heard... but it's up there.

Nothing (and I do mean nothing) gets us out of our seats faster than a youngster scoring, or leaving an opponent for dead, but Rooney was the exception to the rule, almost a freak of nature.

There are hundreds of thousands of examples of unfulfilled potential. Youngsters who had been thrown in and kept in due to necessity.

Tony Hill
192 Posted 16/11/2019 at 10:30:31
True that, Darren.

I was going to mention that tackle on Vic in the context of the Battle of Goodison comments but thought better of it.

A vile man and a vile assault.

Kim Vivian
193 Posted 16/11/2019 at 10:33:17
Steve - what are those meds you're on, mate? Can I get them over the counter?
Ray Roche
194 Posted 16/11/2019 at 10:55:16
Kean's Father is quoted on Sky Sports as saying that his move to Everton was a "mistake" and he should get back to (racist) Italy as soon as possible.

Another gobby relative/father/brother etc. He also says that Raiola has no contact with him (the father). Kean is apparently unhappy at Everton.

Silva, play him or send him back. He's clearly unhappy sat on the bench.

Ray Roche
195 Posted 16/11/2019 at 11:01:44
Darren, Anichebe successfully sued Newcastle for loss of earnings after that tackle. Newcastle paid a "substantial" amount in an out-of-court settlement.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

196 Posted 16/11/2019 at 11:39:42
I've read what Kean's father said and I would suggest absolutely no credence is given to his words at all.

Moise Kean has clearly stated he is estranged from his father who abandoned the family when still a child. Only with Kean's emergence has he attempted to become relevant in his son's life again.

The father, by his own admission, has never met his son's agent and clearly does not have his son's ear.

His thoughts on the situation are the equal of the most fanciful of speculation any of us on TW not in the know could put up.

Ignore him.

Anthony Murphy
197 Posted 16/11/2019 at 11:40:02
Maybe the lad is struggling simply because we are struggling? A lot of players new to the Premier League struggle first season - more than most that actually hit the ground running. So, maybe it's nothing to do with mis handling the lad but more what is normal - especially when the team overall are having a very poor run of form.

The two similar examples of others right now that spring to mind are Pepe at Arsenal and Joelinton at Newcastle. I'm sure both are being discussed by their fans for not making the impact they'd have liked, but it's maybe more about adaption than mishandling.

However, I still have a doubt as to whether Kean will be here long enough for us to see the best of him. I think there probably is some truth that he's expressing unhappiness and a desire to return to Italy. Additionally, I don't think being dropped from the squad was only related to one misdemeanour, but rather a culmination.

Brian Williams
198 Posted 16/11/2019 at 11:51:47
He was dropped from the squad because he was late twice.
Jamie Crowley
199 Posted 16/11/2019 at 11:59:24
Steve Ferns -

Silva is handling the boy fine. It would be easier for Silva to play him, weak-in & week-out, show you he's not ready, wreck the lad's confidence.

I think this is where we disagree. He's not handling him fine. Again, see Mark's summation of his appearances at comment #32, and throw the half-time substitution in there to really kill the kid, and I'd argue Silva isn't handling him well.

Wreck the lad's confidence by playing him 3 or 4 games in a row? What the hell, Steve? We've already wrecked his confidence, what's the difference?

I hope you're right in the end. To quote my favorite coffee mug, "I am a ray of fucking sunshine".

Jamie Crowley
200 Posted 16/11/2019 at 12:03:28
Darren Hind -

I usually stay away from the "historical" comments and threads. But the really odd thing about your thread, for me, is I've actually been around long enough to see every player you mention play! Sans Young Rooney, but there's so much video out there, I practically feel like I watched him. ;0)

I don't have the answers to, "When do we play the young 'uns?" But, I do know you have to at some point.

I know this is weak, but I've got a gut feeling that it's time to give Kean his shot. His situation is going south, and it can't hurt. Either he turns it around, or he's not a fit for Everton. Either way, we need to find out, and I'd argue now is a damn good time.

John G Davies
201 Posted 16/11/2019 at 12:09:54
Anichebe was on the wrong end of a coward's tackle, no doubt about that.

He was never going to make it to the top, though. His lack of heart assured that. Read Ossie's thoughts on that for confirmation.

Steve Ferns
202 Posted 16/11/2019 at 12:38:37
Jamie, if you watched Kean carefully from the stands, you’d have a different opinion. The lad is not ready.
Paul Tran
203 Posted 16/11/2019 at 12:41:27
What will get him 'ready', Steve?
Brian Williams
204 Posted 16/11/2019 at 12:47:27
This is only my opinion but some appear to be looking at Kean's situation in isolation. It's not all about him – it's about the club getting points on the board and winning football matches.

We've been pretty poor so far this season (no shit, Sherlock!) and if anybody has (IMO) any sense whatsoever, they'd surely see you do not throw in a youngster from another country, another league, speaking mostly another language, not only when the team as a whole is struggling, but who in the cameos he's had, has shown, quite obviously in my opinion, that he's not yet ready for the cut and thrust of "must-win" Premier League games.

The lad's undoubtedly got skills but there seems to be this belief that he can almost instantly become a Premier League sensation – or at least a regular goalscorer.

For those who reckon "We're ruining his confidence" or already have done, imagine what it might be like if he gets a full 90 minutes and is basically out of his depth and struggles. How will that be for his confidence?

Having said that, and I've said this already on another thread, we play the bottom team in the league, at home, after the international break, and this game would be the perfect one to give him a start... but, if the team is struggling after 45-60 minutes, then it would be lunacy to just leave the lad on if he's not doing it.

When it comes to that, he gets treated the same as any other player on the pitch at that time in so much as, if he's not doing well, then he may have to come off. Badly treated? No, just common fucking sense!

We all want the lad to be the next big thing for us but it's not Football Manager and, for those advocating "Just give him a run of games", it just doesn't work like that –as much as you may want it to and claim that it does. A dose of realism is required amidst the blind hope!


Paul #203. If I could try to answer your question to Steve?

What will get him ready is a gradual introduction to the Premier League, that allows him to experience the speed and aggression with which each game can be played, and for him to be able to gradually learn how to deal with it.

Richard Mason
205 Posted 16/11/2019 at 12:49:50
How is the kid going to adapt if he does not get a run of games in his favoured position?

Someone mentioned Joeliteon and Pepe not playing well. They are still getting a run of games to help them see what the league is about.

Brian Williams
206 Posted 16/11/2019 at 12:54:08
If we'd given him a run of games and dropped, and remained in the bottom three while he was playing, and playing poorly, the lad would get crucified, certainly on here!
Darren Hind
207 Posted 16/11/2019 at 13:01:31
I tend to agree, Jamie.

I don't go overboard like about a few YouTube clips like some have about Kean, but you have to consider the fact that he got into the Juve team at a very young age so he must have something special. I haven't seen it yet and I simply don't believe those who claim they have.

If the rumors of him heading back to Italy have any legs, then we have to be sure we are not letting a top-class player go without giving him a shot.

I'd play him against Norwich too.

Ray @195

That had gone under my radar. I have just looked it up now on your prompting.

Interesting. I've never heard anything like that and telling that they paid out so readily.

Paul Tran
208 Posted 16/11/2019 at 13:05:38
That's a fair point, Brian. It's a fine line with players coming from overseas. My general view is to give them more than 20 minutes here and there. I'd rather start him and give him at least an hour.
Frank Crewe
209 Posted 16/11/2019 at 13:11:16
I see Nicolas Pépé is getting stick at Arsenal for not setting the world on fire for them. He cost twice as much as Kean cost us and he's 5 years older.

The fact is that many players have come to English clubs from the continent for big money and have failed to live up to the hype about how good they really are. Sometimes I think Premier League clubs buy players first and try to figure out how to fit them in later. To an extent, I think we fans bring this on ourselves. We agitate for our clubs to show ambition by buying these players for obscene amounts of cash and, when they don't live up to the fee and the hype, we blame the player, his agent, the manager, and uncle Tom Cobley. Everyone except ourselves for demanding these buys in the first place.

In reality, most of these players will never live up to the expectation we place on them. They are simply not that good. World-class players are as rare as hens' teeth and just because a player cost a lot it doesn't make him world-class.

Whether Kean will turn out to be a top player remains to be seen. He's young, not in his home country and is under a lot of pressure. Also, he has signed for a club that is struggling to find its form. Probably something he didn't bargain for when he signed. After last seasons strong finish I'll bet he thought we would be doing a lot better than we actually are.

As things are I just don't think he fits into the current managers team formation. We are scrapping for points and we need players who are up for the fight. Right now, I doubt Kean is one of those players. Maybe if our position improves he'll start getting more chances but, right now, he's a luxury player.

Brian Williams
210 Posted 16/11/2019 at 13:11:35
Same here. Paul, starting with Norwich where ideally he scores early and his confidence soars and then he 'could' be up and running!
Steve Ferns
213 Posted 16/11/2019 at 13:30:04
Paul, I think the lad has something special. I was made up to sign him. But he's clearly got some issues.

He was dropped by Mancini from the Italy squad to the U21s for disciplinary reasons, which I think was being late. He's been late at least twice for us now. This hints at a lack of professionalism from him. I get he's only 19 and I was late for loads of stuff myself at 19. Which is why I say he's not ready.

To be ready he needs to get the lesson of being dropped on board. He needs to think hard about where he wants to go with his career and work hard to get there. He needs to show it on the training pitch and then to grasp his chances as a substitute. The lad has played in all but 2 or 3 of our 14 games. He's had chances. But he's not taken them.

Silva did not hang the lad out to dry. Silva was under pressure and he took the decision to drop Kean onto his shoulders. When asked why he dropped him he said it was “a decision”. He reiterated this in all his post-match press conferences. He was fully prepared to protect Kean and keep getting criticised for “mid-handling” him.

That's a guy who's handling him right for me. Everton never confirmed this being late business, it's been leaked by someone, presumably against Silva's wishes.

Let's just stop scrutinising Kean. Let him be a sub and be patient and wait for the goals to come. They will come for sure. And then he will get his regular starts.

Until then, it's too big an ask for him to be the Number 9 and lead this team in attack when we've been struggling and continue to do so.

Ray Roche
214 Posted 16/11/2019 at 13:31:29
Jay @196

Thanks for that, I hadn't heard that before. Sounds like he's got an axe to grind. And an eye for making a few bob selling a "story". However, Raiola is reported as being unhappy with Kean's lack of game time.

Darren @207

I have never heard of a player suing a club in such matters either. Apparently it was for "Loss of earnings". Although EFC were paying his wages, the wages were bonus related and, with not playing, he misses out on earnings that way.

Dave Abrahams
215 Posted 16/11/2019 at 13:39:10
How many minutes has Kean played in the Premier League this season? I honestly don't know.

Has he played enough? I doubt it.

Is he physically fit to play? Yes.

Is he mentally tuned in and ready to play? I don't know.

If the answer to that last question is Yes, then he should be in the squad every week and getting more playing time than he has had.

Steve Ferns
216 Posted 16/11/2019 at 13:44:03
We don’t watch him train, we don’t monitor his effort levels or his commitment. We don’t know what time he arrives or leaves. We can only guess.

You’ve watched the lad close up though Dave. If your job was on the line and you played a sole central striker, would you be selecting Kean ahead of Calvert-Lewin and Tosun right now?

Ray, google Kean’s dad and the tractor story. You’ll learn all you need to know about the guy and his willingness to create stories to sell to the press and the distance he has from his son.

Paul Tran
217 Posted 16/11/2019 at 13:49:47
I'm not scrutinising Kean, Steve. I liked the way Silva tried to shield the real reason why he was dropped. I'd prefer him to start Kean and give him at least an hour. Very hard to scrutinise a player who gets 10 to 15 minutes when we're chasing a game.
Dave Abrahams
218 Posted 16/11/2019 at 13:57:07
Steve (216), to be fair, in my above post, I was reluctant to bring Tosun into the post, but now you've asked I would always play Kean before Tosun, without a shadow of a doubt.

Tosun scored the other week versus Spurs and got us a very welcome point, to be honest all he did before that was fag out for the ball, to try and stop Spurs timewasting. That goal was enough for many fans to include him in the next game; they might be right, but not for me.

Back to Silva, that goal was enough for him to play Tosun at Southampton at the exclusion of Calvert-Lewin, who had scored five goals in recent games. If I was trying to save my job I'd never leave Dominic out of the team, not to mention Cenk's performance against Southampton.

Steve Ferns
219 Posted 16/11/2019 at 13:59:45
Paul, we need wins, we're starting to get them (3 in 5 and could have been 5 in 5 but for VAR), and when we do it'll be easier for Kean to come into games.

Before then, would you seriously start Kean ahead of Tosun or Calvert-Lewin. The amount of pressure on Silva, where every loss leads to speculation on his job, is surely too much to let a 19-year-old kid lead the line. The pressure has been too much for Calvert-Lewin at times and he's English and three years older.

Calvert-Lewin needs starts and he's justified it with 5 goals this season. Against Norwich, I'd start Calvert-Lewin. If Norwich attack, there's space in behind for Calvert-Lewin to exploit with his pace and then if we get a lead, Kean could find more space when he comes on.

Steve Ferns
220 Posted 16/11/2019 at 14:01:29
Dave, I agree. But I'd have probably started Tosun as he's very streaky and his goals for Turkey hint at a rich vein of form. Calvert-Lewin is better though.
Paul Tran
221 Posted 16/11/2019 at 14:13:35
I'd start Kean with Calvert-Lewin, Steve, despite it being compulsory for Silva to have only one player up front.

I only watch the games on a screen, but I see a slow, cautious team that often leaves its sole striker isolated.

A large part of me admires Silva for sticking to a system that produces few goals. If my job was on the line, I'd get the team playing with pace and purpose.

I keep hearing that Silva wants the team to play quicker. If he does, it's his job to get it happening. I'd say the system should be under scrutiny rather than any of the strikers.

Richard Mason
222 Posted 16/11/2019 at 14:30:51
Paul @209, the fact is they are good players. Sometimes players don't adapt to managers style of play, look at salah couldn't get a look in at Chelsea, same as De Bruyne, Lukaku etc. If you find a player's strengths, you play to them.
Dave Abrahams
223 Posted 16/11/2019 at 14:33:03
Steve (220), I think international football is a lot slower than the Premier League, which suits Cenk. Does he score against the top international sides?

I honestly think he is far too slow for the Premier League. To be brutal, I'd play Niasse before him. It's all about opinions, Steve; "One man's meat is another man's poison."

Kieran Kinsella
224 Posted 16/11/2019 at 14:35:21
Steve Ferns

Off topic but didn’t you say you played juniors with Dom Matteo? Poor guy has a brain tumor. Always rated him even though he was a red. Best wishes in his recovery

Darren Hind
226 Posted 16/11/2019 at 14:50:53
I don't get the Calvert-Lewin situation.

Why was he seemingly an automatic choice for all those games when he couldn't buy a goal... but, as soon as he starts scoring, he's benched???

I try to get behind Silva but I don't think I will ever understand his reasoning.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

227 Posted 16/11/2019 at 14:59:00
Ray @ 214.

And thanks right back at you Ray. Like Darren, I wasn't aware about Anichebe's 6-figure out-of-court settlement with the Barcodes. Very telling. Of course, that was the game in the cup final year when we also lost Mikel Arteta.

When you think Victor was only 22 at the time and was subsequently plagued by injuries, you wonder what might have been. Victor had a lot more going for him than some give him credit for.

Back to Kean, this story will help you understand better the relationship between father and son. Moise openly rebuked and ridiculed his absent father in Italian after the latter again made a noise in the press.

Moise Kean Questions Father's Claim That Juventus Owe Him Two Tractors

Tom Bowers
228 Posted 16/11/2019 at 15:05:35
Darren, Everton have a real problem with Silva and his strike force and yet there seems no light at the end of the tunnel.

When so much was expected with young guys like Kean, Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin, it appears Silva doesn't know who to pick and it could well be for different reasons. Add to this the rather lacklustre back-ups like Tosun, Walcott and a guy called Niasse and you understand why Everton are struggling.

Sigurdsson gets the occasional goal but struggles to impact in midfield as do others. If we are supremely optimistic, we could say that Silva will get things right eventually... but does he have the right squad and the right smarts as a coach?

Every game will be tough and, having dropped many points to seemingly inferior teams already, it can only be that Everton will finish at best in mid-table.

Paul Tran
229 Posted 16/11/2019 at 15:13:45
Tom, Darren, it's the random selection generator within the same system. A slowly played system that doesn't produce goals. Barring Richarlison, I get the impression that Silva doesn't particularly fancy any of our strikers. Most strikers would struggle playing in a ponderous team. So why not change the system?
Ray Roche
230 Posted 16/11/2019 at 15:15:46
Jay @227

Looks like Kean's Dad is the perfect role model for fatherhood. Arse.

Thanks for the link.

Jay Harris
231 Posted 16/11/2019 at 15:16:40
Darren, I totally agree with you.

Having been concerned with Calvert-Lewin's goal return, but not his skill or workrate, I was pleased to see him start knocking a couple in and looking more like scoring.

Silva's answer to that – drop the lad????

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

232 Posted 16/11/2019 at 15:27:09
I'll add my name to the list to the 'TW Puzzled' as to why Calvert-Lewin was dropped when starting to score goals regularly — all the more so that he is the player with the best skill set for the way the team has mostly played this season.
Minik Hansen
233 Posted 16/11/2019 at 16:02:42
His fathers comments, is it so he can get more game time? I hope so, along with getting more disciplinary, what does the father say to that. Still wishing Moise Kean all the best in Everton. Once the goals starts, oh boy.
Mark Guglielmo
234 Posted 16/11/2019 at 16:42:00
Regardless of your feelings on Kean's abilities, readiness, usage, etc...

With all the nonsense being "reported" this week, here's what I would encourage you do:
Step 1: Check the sources for these rapidly spreading b.s. rumors.
Step 2: Discover that every single one of them originates from the same place, Calciomercato.it (a clickbait "news" site that actually pays sources for whatever they want to say, like say, Kean's father)
Step 3: Completely disregard.
Step 4: See step 1. Repeat every time another clickbait site spreads the same story using different words.

Ignore the rumors, focus on our player (who will continue to be our player).

I sometimes feel like I'm his biggest fan, and I very much want him to get a shot in his ONLY position, but even I realize more patience is gonna be required. I think someone above mentioned a favorable run off matches coming up to start 2020, and that really is a perfect time. Not that I don't want him to get some meaningful minutes in the next 10, which he likely will, but I think it makes a lot of sense to continue to wait for him getting a run as a starter.

Frank Crewe
235 Posted 16/11/2019 at 17:09:29
I see Tosun is coming in for stick again. You would think every club in the PL has a Messi playing up front for them except us. Sheffield Utd who are 5th have one of our cast offs Lundstram playing up front. Bournemouth have Callum Wilson. Arsenal who are only three points ahead of us have Aubameyang, Lacazette and Pepe. Nearly £200 million quid's worth of strikers. Seems an awful lot of cash for those measly three extra points. Spurs have Kane, Son and Alli yet they have the same amount of points as we do. Big reputations and wages don't always lead to more goals.
Tosun may not be the best striker in the PL but outside of the current top 3 he's as good as anyone else. But as usual the obsession with youth and pace gets in the way.
We are scrapping for points. We don't need lightweights. Tosun will run himself into the ground if he has too. Can we rely on Kean, DCL or Richarlison do the same?
Tony Abrahams
237 Posted 16/11/2019 at 18:19:03
Made up for you Paul, thanks for the tip mate! Very bad news about Dominic Matteo, I hope he recovers from that horrible illness Kieran.

Tosun isn’t getting stick Frank, it’s just some people giving honest opinions mate. I always thought stick, was getting told you’re shite, and why would he only run himself into the ground if he had to? maybe that’s what’s wrong with “all our team” at the minute mate, they can Only do it when they have to.

Steve Ferns
240 Posted 16/11/2019 at 18:51:58
Missed that about Dom Matteo. I hope he has a successful operation and recovery.
Jim Jennings
243 Posted 16/11/2019 at 21:05:53
“Jamie, if you watched Kean carefully from the stands, you'd have a different opinion. The lad is not ready.”

The most Steve Ferns comment ever. “I go the game me, so my opinion is the right one”.

Tony Abrahams
245 Posted 16/11/2019 at 21:41:40
I don’t think he’s ready either Jim, only time I’ve been impressed was when he came on out wide against City, but it’s mid-November now, he’s been here for 3 full months, so let’s hope he’s learning everyday in training, and is ready to take his chance over the next 6/7 crucial weeks of the season.

Maybe Kean, will be better against teams who attack? Or maybe Kean, will just be better once he’s playing regular games and has adapted to the English game?

I agree with most of what Brian@204 says, but think the best time to play Moise Kean is when he’s ready, and after 3 months I’m hoping that this won’t be long now.

Paul A Smith
251 Posted 18/11/2019 at 10:44:35
Some of these agenda based comments are classical. Evertonian folklore.

Davies was brought into the side forced by injury. Pure woman like nonsense to suit an agenda.

First start for Davies is next to gomes with Delph and Schneiderlin on the bench.

Time and time again people have been told this and still make shit up. Its beyond embarrassing reading some of the snidey non factual digs at the manager that are only worth a thought to lazy closed minds.

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