Carlo's Time To Go?

by   |   30/11/2020  141 Comments  [Jump to last]

He is running on empty, picking up a fat paycheck and riding on past glories. The team has gone backwards in the year he has been here. His attack is reliant on one player. He is a nice guy but his team has no shape or style. He wasted a lot of money on one luxury player who doesn't put in a shift. He has no Plan B. His team are too streaky. He won't give young homegrown players a chance.

These are remarks being tossed about by fans about Guardiola, Arteta, Hodgson, Solskjaer, Lampard, Wilder, Hassenhütl, and Mourinho respectively. They probably sound familiar as they are clichés being directed at Carlo Ancelotti. Add Tony Marsh's notion that there are no 60-year-old-plus managers who are successful today and you have a snapshot of the mood among some of the fan base. But is any of it true? Kind of, but other than Klopp, every Premier League manager is currently facing the same and other accusations of failure.

With regard to the ageism argument from Tony Marsh, we just lost to a highly-praised old-timer on Saturday; Sarri just won the league in Italy, Juup Heynckes and Arsene Wenger are among the other old-timers to have won trophies in recent years. Lucien Favre at Dortmund isn't doing badly either.

In contrast, we've seen a lot of young pretenders (Niko Kavic, Frank De Boer, Eddie Howe, David Wagner, Alex Neil, Daniel Farke etc) sprout up as the next best thing only to come up short. So you can play the age card either way but there are coaches of all ages failing and succeeding.

Then we have the "We're not improving" argument. Towards the end of Marcelo Bielsa's first season at Leeds Utd there was a clamour among fans for him to be sacked. He'd been found out, he had no Plan B, his players couldn't maintain the intensity all season. Leeds didn't pull the trigger; he fine-tuned things and, a year later, they were promoted.

With regard to the defence, Klopp was hammered in his first years for his shambolic defence. It took time, it took investment, but that is long forgotten now. Mourinho just six months ago was reliant on one man – Kane. Guys like Ndombele, Bergwijn, and Sissoko were wastes of money who weren't performing. It took a little time but, all of a sudden, those accusations have fallen by the wayside. It's easy to find fault.

It's frustrating to be patient if you think a failure is inevitable. You don't want to wait another 18 or 24 months until you have to sack the guy anyway. If a change is needed, why not do it now? Well, we have tried that approach several times. We've said the managers are underperforming and we have "great players". But that approach hasn't seen us progress.

We've tried every type of manager there is. Young "Jose type", nice football, cup winner, old-school long ball, Dutch supremo, decorated champion. So, if we were to pull the plug on Carlo, we'd hire someone in the mould of the others who tried and failed.

So why not hold our breath, accept the limitations of the squad? Give him the time Klopp has had. Allow him to bring in some more quality and further develop players as he clearly has with Dominic Calvert-Lewin. In fact, I would say there is no player in the last 15 years who has obviously improved so quickly under the guidance of a manager.

"Well, it's down to Unsy and Fergie" some will say. Untrue. Ferguson clearly helped his aerial game but the goalscoring was the issue and Calvert-Lewin has clearly stated that Carlo has been instrumental in working with him on that. So let's give the fellow some time and see what else he can do.

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Clive Rogers
1 Posted 01/12/2020 at 09:58:42
The worst thing that could happen is for Carlo to be dispensed with and replaced by god knows who off the managerial merry-go-round.

Carlo needs time. He has come to a club that has been in decline for over 20 years due to bad leadership from the top. The playing squad is still bloated with under-performers signed for massive fees and wages who are proving difficult to move on.

Carlo has only had one summer window to bring in his players and the signings he made have improved the squad. In that window, a lot of the emphasis was on getting rid.

The time to judge Carlo is when all the players in his matchday squad are “his” players, ie, players he is happy with. That is not the case at the moment.

John Raftery
2 Posted 01/12/2020 at 10:52:45
Ray Roche
3 Posted 01/12/2020 at 11:07:29
Well said, Kieran.

Although I'm not happy with Saturday's team selection and would like to know the inside story of Gordon and Nkonkou's disappearance (two young, talented players whose natural positions are taken by the ubiquitous square peg being hammered into the round hole), I think it's ludicrous to consider another management change.

However, I do think that, if we haven't got a defensive coach, then we need one now! The defence is like a colander, leaking goals at a relegation rate.

We also need to be fitter.

Robert Tressell
4 Posted 01/12/2020 at 11:33:06
Kieran, I saw the article headline and my heart sank. I read the article and now feel much better.

I mentioned on another thread that our squad is the 7th most valuable in the Premier League. Next above us are Arsenal with a ~£150M difference. By the time you get to Chelsea at 3rd, the difference is about £400M and Man City and Liverpool have squads worth about double ours.

Carlo can only do so much within those limits. Add to that he's only been here a very short time. Hassenhüttl and Rodgers, for example, have had longer to bed in.

We're in decent hands. It's frustrating and there have been mistakes, but you can't really start to judge properly until this time next year.

Barry Rathbone
5 Posted 01/12/2020 at 12:09:59
I haven't seen any calls for him to be sacked – just valid concerns about the direction, or lack of, that appears before us.

Out of the managers named, I would suggest only Mourinho is proving doubters wrong, which is unsurprising because he has proven history of "building". Pep has never "built" and it shows.

Too early to judge Lampard and Arteta in their first high-profile jobs but Klopp was never under any real pressure – he was in cup finals from minute one, for goodness sake.

Most of the time, fans' gut reactions are right... and, as it stands, all we are seeing from Carlo is his name. A vast improvement in the basics of motivation to energise moderate players is needed... but I doubt that is his forte.

I warned before the summer, if he missed the boat in the summer window, tinkering in the transfer market rather than applying major surgery, he was making a rod for his own back. So it is proving.

Rennie Smith
6 Posted 01/12/2020 at 12:10:54
Good article and sentiment, Kieran, absolutely sensible. The sad and ridiculous thing is that someone like you has to argue the point against. It beggars belief that some people would call for Carlo to be sacked.
Ken Kneale
7 Posted 01/12/2020 at 12:31:03
I have not seen one call for Carlo to go.

The point that he should be getting more out of his players is a perfectly valid one – is anyone seriously suggesting 3 points from 15 is a decent return?

It's hardly Nil Satis Nisi Optimum if so.

Len Hawkins
8 Posted 01/12/2020 at 12:35:52
You only have to look at Hassenhüttl when they got done with a cricket score it would have been the end for a lot of managers but how has he turned them around?

It has been mentioned on other threads that Ancelotti is purposely showing the hierarchy that the squad is simply not good enough. Everyone likes to see a settled team but injuries, suspensions, and bad form cause change and the changes have shown the squad up for its lack of ability.

The Gordon and Nkounkou omission may be his way of not putting them under more pressure in a struggling second string of players, which could ruin them before they start.

I know the first-team squad cover injuries etc but, as we all know, certain members need their arses booting up the road.

Sam Hoare
9 Posted 01/12/2020 at 12:37:33
Kieran, I agree with much of this but I'm not sure we can rely on Carlo to "further develop players". Not young players at least.

The lack of opportunities given to the likes of Nkounkou, Gordon and Davies with others like Gomes, Delph and Sigurdsson suggests to me that he will favour experience a lot of the time. In fact, he even said as much in a recent interview:

“To develop a player, he needs to play, but I am not here to develop players."

Maybe these players are not good enough but it's clear from his selection and indeed our transfer targets that Carlo is prioritising short-term improvement over building a long-term team. As such, I think he maybe has less reason to demand time and patience than other managers might have.

Certainly all managers deserve at least a full season to be judged, unless things have gone into complete meltdown, but I'd say that, if we don't show at least a little progress, by coming in the top 8 for example, then there will be valid questions to ask.

Graeme Beresford
10 Posted 01/12/2020 at 12:40:03
I've tried to stay away from posting recently due to the negative posts and the constant moaning of Everton fans, me actually being one of them. Especially when we lose a game, it seems as if everyone from everywhere appears with a comment or article that rubs off on everyone else and, all of a sudden, we seem like we are in a downward spiral instead of looking at the facts and the positives.

The facts are: Carlo has come into a team and a club which, on paper, looks good; however, we have had manager after manager who has bought player after player and left us with a squad of average players which hasn't known stability since David Moyes left – that is now 7 years ago, by the way.

He has also had what, just one transfer window to try and bring in – and, probably more importantly, ship out – players. Yes, Brands is also responsible for this but, as a former season ticket holder where I had to watch a midfield generally consisting of players like Pembridge, Alexanderson, Nyarko etc, give me James, Doucouré, and Allan any day of the week.

I think the reality is the figures speak for themselves. Since Carlo took over, he has lost 11 games out of 34... 11!!! Let that sink in. And 4 of those loses have come in the last few weeks. This guy is a real winner and yes, we are leaking goals... but that's because we all know he is trying to find his best formation whilst dealing with injuries and suspensions. You think Klopp is happy having Van Dijk out for the season and having to play backup players? You think Atalanta would've beaten them at home last week if they would've had Trent, Van Dijk, Fabinho etc playing. Come on, get a grip.

We are all unhappy at the run of results recently. To me, the Leeds Utd game and Man Utd game are ones I can take. Occasionally, world class players, such as Fernandes, show why they are world class. They find pockets of space and finish their chances. Leeds was always going to be a tough game, they run like their batteries don't drain and unfortunately they got the first goal, which was going to be important in an end-to-end, chances-for-both-teams type of game. You have to remember we had two goals chalked off for offsides and, much like James's goal a few weeks back, it took a low drive from outside the box, through the defender's legs to break the deadlock.

The game that disappointed me the most was Newcastle away. The whole performance for me was awful and Newcastle played exactly how anyone would've expected them. But again, we have to be patient with Carlo. He hasn't yet got the best out of his players but, then again, give me where we are in the Premier League at this part of the season against being in the bottom half... or say, for example, being Arsenal.

Yes, Carlo has messed around with the tactics; however, we all know, if everyone was fit, what he first team would be, every time. As with most teams, this just isn't the reality, with injuries and suspensions. We have to be realistic as well; we are never going to win the Premier League with the team and squad that we have, so let's just settle down and understand that, when you lose your left-back, right-back, two centre-backs, one of your forwards, etc... a spanner in the works will be thrown.

Dennis Stevens
11 Posted 01/12/2020 at 12:55:18
Much scope for criticism of the Manager, but also some praise, based on what we've seen so far. However, the man's not been here quite a year, effectively had one transfer window, and not even got a full season under his belt.

I could understand the calls to twist rather than stick if there was an obvious replacement that the Board could have greater confidence in, but I'm not aware of one.

I expect a lot of ups and downs over the next couple of seasons, regardless of who the manager is, to be honest. The Board, I expect, will be committed to giving Ancelotti more than a fair crack unless their hand is forced by a crisis in the Premier League.

Otherwise, I anticipate he'll still be in post come summer 2022 and, hopefully, these conversations will be long since lost in the mists of time.

Stephen Brown
12 Posted 01/12/2020 at 12:58:50
If we sack Ancelotti, it really is a "Where do we go now?" moment!

Despite the poor run, he has to be given time... otherwise, we start the whole process again and we're constantly rebuilding!

Eddie Dunn
13 Posted 01/12/2020 at 13:19:23
I think he has done okay so far but reputation alone can't protect anyone from valid criticism and people like Darren Hind have reasonable lack of faith.

Personally, I am willing to wait and see what happens. We have been awful and brilliant this season, and there will be more ups and downs along the way, but we won't get anywhere sacking people after a year in the job.

Ian Horan
14 Posted 01/12/2020 at 13:51:41
I find this situation unbelievably sad. Carlo inherited a basket case of a squad. Expectations and reality are poles apart, we need one thing more than anything else... stability.

Yes, things are challenging and difficult but does anybody here really think Pep, Klopp or even Mourinho would do any better with this squad???

We need to accept a period of transition, there needs to be a churn of the squad to get a balanced and competitive team.

I hope Moshiri has the same bottle as the Saints' owners; if he hasn't, we will head for the wilderness... changing for change's sake is not a good thing.

I am as unhappy as any of us but let's be clear: we will be midtable and possibly have a serious flirtation with a cup. Summer 2021 will see the end of some big salaried contracts, which will then free up funds for recruitment.

Finally, before anybody says "Look at Ancelotti's salary!!!!" Moshiri needs to protect his investment and £11M per year is Moshiris insurance policy. We won't get relegated with Carlo – and that's the end game to ensure Premier League status when we move to Bramley-Moore Dock.

Let's just enjoy the good days and not tolerate the poor ones but be more realistic on where we were and where we hope to get to. Man City and Chelsea didn't do it overnight... it was 3 to 5 years investment before they became the football teams they are now.

Tony Abrahams
15 Posted 01/12/2020 at 14:03:08
Carlo only needs to go for a long walk on Crosby beach to clear his head and think it over, and then get us back on track.

Ray Robinson
16 Posted 01/12/2020 at 14:04:42
Good God! A well thought-out and reasoned post to which have been added so many sensible comments! I too have been reluctant to post much recently on account of the strident negativity that sometimes pervades this forum.

Am I totally happy with Ancelotti? No, for any number of concerns, chiefly team selection and tactical reasons. Am I taken in by the 'Carlo Fantastico' guff? No, he may well have seen far better days but he's still got it all to prove at Everton!

But, do I want him sacked? No, of course not! The man has had far too little time to turn the club around – but the iceberg is no longer directly ahead of us. I see grains of improvement and a better all-round quality of player being brought in. But there is still an awful lot of dross and deadwood to shift and it can't all be done in one window.

I will start to question the manager more and, particularly Brands, if a certain type of athletic, pacey, dynamic set of players is not brought in gradually over the next few windows to up the team tempo – which is still, with a few exceptions, far too slow and ponderous.

What is the alternative? To rely on Rhino or Big Dunc again? Or try the next flavour of the month, who will, at some point, inevitably fail? All managers pass their sell-by date eventually and either leave or get sacked. But the good ones succeed because they're given a reasonable chance to do so.

So, as far as I'm concerned, the jury is out – but I'm prepared to give the man far more time to prove himself.

Kevin Prytherch
17 Posted 01/12/2020 at 14:07:40
It's balance that is needed, and many posters on here (not this thread so far) are guilty of swaying too far in one direction or the other.

It would be ridiculous to sack Ancelotti after less than a year.

However, he should not be exempt from criticism.

Criticism of Ancelotti does not mean that he should be sacked, just that he could have done better. His mistrust of youth and his recent tactics have left me bewildered, but sacking him is not the answer.

All managers, unless blatantly out of their depth (Silva) should be given time to implement what they want.

Steavey Buckley
18 Posted 01/12/2020 at 14:09:37
One win in the last 6 games is showing that Everton are going in the wrong direction – made worse by the loss of one of the best left-backs in the world for at least the next 2 months, who does know how to cross a ball. The rest of the team last Saturday could not cross a ball.

Unless Ancelotti has an outstanding transfer window in January, Everton will end up in mid-table. If the owner is content with Ancelotti's progress, then he will be here next season. If not, Ancelotti won't be here after the end of this season.

Geoff Williams
19 Posted 01/12/2020 at 14:11:25
There is no question that Ancellotti (I don't know him so I refrain from calling him Carlo) has won many trophies and has raised the profile of the club. He has a reputation of being a serial winner BUT his record for sackings must rival that of Sam Allardyce.

Other than an 8-year stint in Milan, a 2-season stay seems to be his norm which means if he is still here this time next year it will be unexpected. He is intetested in the NOW and not developing players. He was forced out of his last club because he lost the dressing room with five senior players telling the Chairman that they were unhappy with his tactics and team selections.

It is also well documented that players organised additional training sessions because of the lack of intensity in Ancellotti's training sessions. I'm not calling for his sacking but I think people should have realistic expectations about his term with us.

He has already abandoned the club's policy of buying players under 25 and appears to have treated some of the young talent poorly in comparison to the older players. My advice to everyone is don't believe the hype, use your own eyes and judgement.

Brian Murray
20 Posted 01/12/2020 at 14:25:33
The downturn in results was probably always on the cards with the injuries we always get. The manner of them is what is worrying because, if let's say we have a plan and style of play from Under18 through to first team, them a few bumps in the road most fans would take a deep breath (or sigh) and acknowledge that it's an upward slow curve.

The naive stance of playing men out of position and totally wrong team selection and toothless bench is something that can easily be avoided and we would not be in such a mess at the minute.

It smacks of that idiot Silva but we can only hope Carlo is having a bad week (month?) and will also give the likes of Onyango and Simms a role before it's too late for him. Just for once, blueboys, let's get it right, eh!

Joe McMahon
21 Posted 01/12/2020 at 14:33:16
Kieran, a well-reasoned post that talks a lot of sense.

I suppose a lot of frustrations for us as Everton fans is being starved of success for decades, while our lovely neighbours just win things, with global adoration historically and to date.

Brian Murray
22 Posted 01/12/2020 at 15:03:36
Tony Abrahams @15. If we go out of the cup game vs Man Utd, he can have a very long walk on Crosby Beach, as per Reggie Perrin. (Showing my age!)
Jim Bennings
23 Posted 01/12/2020 at 15:35:53
You can't even think of sacking another manager, not yet anyway.

There's a big difference between constructive criticism of a manager and demanding his sacking. I've heard no calls for his job from anyone?

Carlo needs to basically simplify things much in the same way that Sam Allardyce did in his first seven games. He took over a club that was absolutely leaking goals worse than now but, within three or four weeks, it was sorted.

Carlo needs to do away with square pegs in round holes. He needs to come out and say to the fans: "Our first-choice left-back is injured so we are keeping it like-for-like with Niels Nkounkou, please bear with him because this is at present our only option."

We'd appreciate him doing that as fans: we'd be patient – at least the lad is a natural left-back, not some right-footed centre-half shoehorned into a position he can't play.

The Iwobi thing is another situation that's just doing my head in at the moment. The lad has been up and down in his career at Everton, yet has his best game in a blue shirt at Fulham, on the right side... so why on earth does Ancelotti swap him back to the left again against Leeds?

Just stop it, Carlo lad, just keep a limited squad simple with a simple formation and players that can actually play in their right positions. Maybe then things might start improving.

Bill Gall
24 Posted 01/12/2020 at 16:02:07
It has been mentioned on another thread that a manager has to be given time. Some people agree, others disagree.

The two teams that were mentioned, Leeds and Wolves, for examples, both play different styles and tactics developed by their managers. The interesting statistic is the time that their managers were given to develop their teams, even after receiving the same negativity at the beginning that Ancelotti is getting.

Both managers were given time; Wolves manager Espirito Santo was hired in May 2017 and Leeds manager Bielsa was hired in June 2018. Both had the backing from the club, had transfer windows to help in recruiting players, and had to battle to get out of a tough Championship league.

The point is, I agree that Ancelotti makes decisions that a lot of supporters disagree with, myself included. But then I am not privileged to be at Finch Farm all week at training, and seeing what the players perform like in positions they are not used to.

We have seen the type of football this team is capable of (the first half at Fulham was a good example). I was taught at an early age to think of a triangle when you start anything new, the Pyramids in Egypt are a good example. Start with the basics a strong base and then you work up to the top. You will not reach the top if you don't have a solid base. I believe, as a team, a solid base starts in your defense with help from midfield, then you can work your way to the top with your attack.

Ancelotti has not got a solid base and relies on his attack; he should be given more time to get his defense sorted out with stronger players, either defensive or in the midfield.

We cannot get too carried away with the successes at the beginning of the season, or the subsequent failures, the true test of a manager's ability is at the end of the season.

Alan McGuffog
25 Posted 01/12/2020 at 16:20:58
I didn't get where I am today by going for long walks on Crosby beach
Duncan McDine
26 Posted 01/12/2020 at 16:33:47
Get rid of him now! Useless manager, knows nothing about football and turned us from a title-challenging team playing free-flowing world class footy into a disgrace during his short spell in charge.

In all seriousness, I agree with Kieran, it would be mental to ditch Carlo right now. We've gone from being a bag of shite to being a little bit better than a bag of shite (a bag of cabbage?). Depressing, but fuck, we're surely used to it by now!

Paul Smith
27 Posted 01/12/2020 at 16:38:55
We have improved under Carlo without doubt. We look really dangerous going forward and he has bought some decent players (Allan was exceptional against Leeds).

Yes, his replacements and subs are weird but a much better all-round experience watching Everton than anything since Roberto's first season.

Jay Harris
28 Posted 01/12/2020 at 16:44:51
Geoff #19,

Where do you get this shit from?

He was not forced out of Napoli because he lost the dressing room – he left after taking them to the Champions League semi-final because the Chairman was a total arse towards the players and Carlo sided with the players.

As others have mentioned, there were calls for Klopp, Mourhino, Nuno and Hassenhüttl to be sacked in their first year or two and Alex Ferguson had Man Utd relegated and it took him 5 years to build what became the most successful side in history.

Every man and his dog was suggesting patience when Carlo was appointed 12 months and one transfer window in the strangest year in recent history, compounded with a shedload of injuries to key players, should not exhaust our patience.

Yes, it is difficult to swallow poor results and we will disagree with team selection and tactics but we have to trust a man whose pedigree compares with the best and who has more football knowledge in his little finger than the whole of ToffeeWeb put together.

The shit that gets thrown at the manager and players on social media surely gets back to them and affects confidence and determination. So, instead of moaning like girls in a schoolyard, we need to face the adversity and give the manager and players our full support... otherwise, we will go nowhere again.

Rob Dolby
31 Posted 01/12/2020 at 16:56:15

Sorry to have a pop but I don't think the signings of Godfrey, Branthwaite and Nkounkou back up your theory of abandoning the U25 youth policy.

Holgate, Davies, Calvert-Lewin, Iwobi and Richarlison are all under 25 and feature regularly.

Maybe I have misunderstood your post.

Brian Murray
32 Posted 01/12/2020 at 17:07:38
Alan @25. A great soooper, sorry, CJ!! It is a death wish or a bit crazy to just dismiss these young players. He's not a novice so why wait until he comes here in his 60s and starts acting like one? As I have said, maybe he realises now and will play pairings that dovetail, ie, a stopper (not Mina with a pacy centre-half) and so on.
Geoff Williams
33 Posted 01/12/2020 at 17:11:21
Jay Harris:

My apologies, it was his last-but-one job, Bayern Munich.

I stand by what I said in that, if he is in still here in December 2021, it will be a surprise. I admire the trust some have in him to turn Everton around, I sincerely hope he does but what he did previously. It doesn't necessarily mean he will do at Everton.

I said don't simply believe the hype but use your eyes and make your own judgement. Sadly we are not all as wise as you.

Jason Wilkinson
34 Posted 01/12/2020 at 17:19:59
If Ancelotti goes, and it would be a big "if" imo... Who comes in? Why would any manager want to come to Everton?

We're not in the Champions League or even the Europa League. We have a mixed bag of a squad. We can't compete with 4 or 5 of our rivals financially. So tell me, who would come and transform us?

We need stability. A manager. Not a coach. We somehow enticed Ancelotti to do the job. I can only believe he came with assurances that the football side of the business would be run by himself and Brands.

He has an excellent pedigree and is well respected by his peers. To go back to the drawing board would be our biggest setback in memory. I truly believe, if we were to dismiss Ancelotti, the Championship would come looming.

Geoff Williams
35 Posted 01/12/2020 at 17:22:36
Rob Dolby, do honestly believe those signings were Ancellotti's?

These are Brands's buys with James and Allan being his. Ancellotti's default setting is to play experienced, seasoned International players.

Tony Abrahams
36 Posted 01/12/2020 at 17:40:42
Brian @22, I hope we beat Man Utd, obviously, but our club hasn't won a trophy for 26 years, so I get your point. Maybe if we don't win, Ancellotti can go on a slow boat to China!
Ray Robinson
37 Posted 01/12/2020 at 18:24:29
Jay #30. It doesn't detract from your post but, unless my memory is getting unreliable, Alex Ferguson had nothing to do with Manchester United's relegation in 1974 or subsequent promotion.
Tony Everan
38 Posted 01/12/2020 at 18:41:38
To an extent, it's all down to results. We lose the next three and the tide turns. We lose the next three after that and he is up to his bellybutton in water.

It's not just Carlo Ancelotti, no manager is immune to that.

I've still got confidence in him to get us playing again. I would have liked Nkounkou to have replaced Digne on Saturday and to have kept Iwobi on the right but maybe it's a lesson learned. Leeds were too focused and sharp for us anyway, faster closing down and exuding the energy that is elusive to us.

Barry Williams
39 Posted 01/12/2020 at 19:03:04
Let's just consider the situation we are in at the moment. Ancelotti joined mid-season, to a team that, despite Ferguson getting some good results from, had performed badly enough to be in a relegation position, and thus, got their manager sacked.

Then we had a little issue of the season being postponed due to a global pandemic, and then restarted under very strange circumstances.

Then, we had a shortened pre-season, followed by a season of ridiculous international matches all over the globe, and condensed into an already packed season.

And, he's had 1 transfer window to address a lot of problems.

The team that was out on Saturday was made up of (including the 3 subs):

3 Koeman signings
5 Silva signings,
1 Martinez signings,
1 Homegrown player
4 Ancelotti Signings.

4 different managers involved in the player recruitment, if Coleman had played, it could have been 5!

This underlies the problem for me, several different managers in a short time, all with their own ideas, regardless of who is DOF.

I would loved to have seen Nkounkou, after all an Ancelotti/Brands signing, but we didn't.

I haven't agreed with a lot of what Ancelotti has done, but to even consider a change in the next year or so, unless in a relegation battle, would just further the inconsistency of recruitment, hence performances!

Time is needed, even during normal circumstances, never mind what has been experienced towards the end of last season and the beginning of this season.

Derek Taylor
40 Posted 01/12/2020 at 19:20:26
In all truth, there is no groundswell for Carlo to be replaced. Only disappointment that he has failed to bring about any improvement in the fringe players who have been so crap in previous seasons. Of the younger lads, only Moise Kean was given much of a chance to show his skills and that was because he cost £20M plus which Brands needed to justify!

But what does any of us expect the team to achieve this season? I can't believe there are too many who still think there's any chance of honours but surely we are not asking too much of the manager to expect an improved finish above last season's 12th? Even top half shouldn't be impossible. Or should it?

Andrew Dempsey
41 Posted 01/12/2020 at 19:34:33
I just see a team being picked from week to week that is trying to keep the squad happy, and winning would be a bonus. Instead of, a team that is imposing its own style of football on the game and is set out to try and win at all costs.

Yes, it's a tough job, and of course he'll be here for a few years and we should give him a go. But, I don't see any evidence at the moment of him achieving anything.

No-one is calling for him to be sacked, we're just concerned with what we've seen, and rightfully so. This is just an ideas and discussion forum, no one has any real power here, but people are taking criticism of the manager like we want him hung by his bollocks.

We just think he's not very impressive and isn't doing a good job, maybe that will change, no need to get so defensive about it. Why compare the situation to other managers? Who cares? We're discussing what we see on the pitch, and it's crap, frankly.

Is it magically going to get better with the signing of four or five more players, or is this lack of intensity in our play just something that's a part of this manager's approach to the game?

Paul Birmingham
42 Posted 01/12/2020 at 19:41:09
Now so many moons ago, after the Coventry home match in early 1984, a week or so, before the Stoke FA Cup game, Howard Kendall was being clamoured by some Everton fans, to go, some of the press stating he was on the brink of the sack based on the fans' frustration, after the poor game. The rest of the season was a catalyst for Everton's mid-80s peak.

Where Everton is this season is arguably right based on the performances. I get the frustrations of the last 6 games but whom could expect instant consistency and success with the squad in place?

The first x4 wins were great, but hand on heart, we knew the real tests, would highlight the squad's limitations.

Time, is needed, but changing manager. for the sake of changing, and the club will never bed in and consolidate and build a solid foundation.

I would like to know the position that Nkonkou and Gordon are in regards being in the squad.

For me both despite their youth, both of them would provide more honest endeavour on the Park than some of the players being picked as squad members.

Getting a better tune from the squad is proving a challenge, for Carlo Ancellotti, but how many players, in the mould of “he could play anywhere” have Everton got?

The current squad so far has proved that losing any one or key players is proving very difficult to fix.

So with hope eternal, I look to see Everton to show some fight and grit and get a good win or even a win by any means at Burnley.

Time to prove that their some optimism for the very tough games coming up, and to stay in touch of the top 7.

For me, judge after the end of the season.

Darren Hind
44 Posted 01/12/2020 at 19:48:52
As I read this piece, two words kept swirling around my head: Swiss cheese.

First of all, I have never seen a single post claiming it was Unsworth who improved Calvert-Lewin. Let me spell this out.

Unsworth is responsible for Calvert-Lewin being here. He scouted him, recognised his potential, persuaded the club to sign him. Calvert-Lewin was with the first team as a teenager. Unsworth didn't have much time to work with him, but he is the reason he is an Everton first-teamer. Then we have the laughable claim that Ancelotti is responsible for Calvert-Lewin's progress.

Calvert Lewin had been misused by a succession of managers. Then the guy who knew him best because he had worked one-to-one with him was asked to take control.

Duncan Ferguson gave Calvert-Lewin a partner. He told him to forget all the shite instructions he had heard from previous managers about chasing back to his own penalty area. "Stay centre-forward"... The result was instant.

Ancelotti stuck with Duncan's winning formula – until recently when he has reverted back to leaving Calvert-Lewin isolated and on his jack.

Many of us were predicting Calvert-Lewin to go to the top long before Carlo even got here.

I cringe when I see people complain about the players Ancelotti inherited. The fact is, he won the lottery when he inherited two of the hottest young strikers in world football. If he hadn't have inherited them and the goals they have scored, we would already be in a relegation scrap. The pug ugly football we were forced to suffer in the second half of last season would have been even uglier.

Let's not forget, he also inherited a top-class left-back and captain he has described as up with the best he has managed. Not to mention some very promising youngsters.

His refusal to play his two young full-backs on Saturday was just plain dumbfuckery. His treatment of Anthony Gordon is inexplicable and every time young Moise Kean find the back of the net at PSG, he demonstrates how badly Carlo handled him.

"Yeah wait until he brings his own players" ... well, the four he brought in played on Saturday and we couldn't put a dent in the Leeds armour. Same at Southampton... and Newcastle.

I also like the way the odd exception rather than the usual rule was put up as a defence for hiring a guy nearing the date when he can claim his bus pass. Yeah, there has been the odd exception when a 60-something has won a trophy but, on the rare occasion it does happen, it tends to be with a club who are already one of the dominant forces of their league. Marshy is right. The odds of being struck by lightning are shorter.

Oh and let's be clear here: Marshy didn't just start calling for his head. He didn't want him here in the first place and he gave his reasons. I see no evidence of a knee-jerk reaction.

I kinda sensed this article was on its way because I noticed how Arteta was being put up as proof that those who fancied him here have been proven wrong. Bollocks.

Yes, Arteta is having his inexperience exposed, but in his short spell he has beaten Liverpool (twice), he has beaten Man City. He has beaten Man Utd. He has beaten Chelsea, and he has already put two trophies in the Gunners' cabinet.

He may be feeling the heat from spoilt Arsenal fans, but I wish to fuck one of the jokers we have hired would have failed as badly as he has.

This article may have been well received by like-minded people who will applaud anything which defends this manager but, for me, it is ill-informed and misguided. It's aimed at people who can see the writing on the wall and is supported by people who would need binoculars to even see the wall.

Ancelotti is not going to be sacked in the foreseeable. Evertonian's simply don't ever get off that lightly. The argument is moot. We are stuck with dear old Uncle Carlo for some time yet.

Jason Wilkinson
45 Posted 01/12/2020 at 19:51:30
I've been looking at the table. Not to see where we are in terms of points but goals for and against. Only Fulham & West Brom have shipped more than us. The top 3 plus Villa have scored more. So 5th in goals scored. Quite pleased with that. 3rd bottom on goals conceded. Not pleased.

Considering the form of our keeper and defenders it's probably about right. Ancelotti can't be totally accountable. There have been some poor individual mistakes and performances.

Pickford had his best game this season v Leeds. Keane's form is looking more consistent. Mina was dreadful early and lost his place. Holgate not yet 100% fit. Godfrey can be excused as he is new. Both full-backs missing. Liverpool have conceded as many.

A settled and fit defence and we're still leaking goals, then I would question what is going on. Ancelotti must be given time and support to get it right.

Brian Murray
46 Posted 01/12/2020 at 19:54:36
Let's hope we are all or mostly wrong about Carlo and he's just toying with our emotions (again).

I can't stand the usual default repost: "Who else will come here?" We have a hell of a fan base still and just need a bit of vision and hope. Not too much to ask, eh? He should be privileged and grateful to be here – not the other way round.

Bobby Thomas
47 Posted 01/12/2020 at 20:38:30
The squad is an unbalanced mess and we are a little short in some areas of the pitch for whatever formation the manager wants to play. We are paying the price for a permanent flux. Almost no matter what happens this season – to a point, of course – Ancelotti has to go into next season. We need the stability.

But part of being a manager is getting a tune out of what you have. When Ancelotti took over, I never thought we'd be badly organised and easy to play against. Right now, we are.

The weekend reminded me of second season Martinez. Fitful creativity. Out of possession, we were slow, weak, easy to play against, disorganised and giving up lots of attempts on goal. That has to change or he's fucked.

Ray Robinson
48 Posted 01/12/2020 at 20:38:54
Darren, given that you don't see Ancelotti being sacked in the near future, can I ask you a straight question?

Hypothetically speaking, of course, if you were in charge and were able to do so, would you sack him right now?

If so, who would you replace him with? And if not, why not, given that you clearly don't rate the guy?

Tony Abrahams
49 Posted 01/12/2020 at 20:55:21
Thank god we are stuck with Uncle Carlo!

And they are my own thoughts, even before I read Barry's very sensible post @39.

Conor McCourt
50 Posted 01/12/2020 at 20:59:59
Darren @44 – superb post. Hind at his brilliant best!!

Calvert-Lewin, Kean, Arteta, spot-on in all counts.

Alex Gray
51 Posted 01/12/2020 at 21:07:05
I think every manager makes mistakes and Don Carlo is no exception.

However, with him in charge, we can attract a whole new level in player – and, once again, he inherited an awful, unbalanced squad. Every summer signing improves us – and expect that to continue.

That said, I expect this season to be difficult. We had no full-backs bar a young left-back with no experience. The injuries and suspensions have highlighted our squad flaws – and I believe 100% that Brands will go before Ancelotti.

Steve Guy
52 Posted 01/12/2020 at 21:14:00
The short term view of so many who “contribute” to this site and others never ceases to amaze me.

Ancellotti has inherited a squad full of bang-average players and a few gems, to which he's added three more good uns and hopefully a fourth in Branthwaite. Anyone who says we shouldn't have this world class manager here with his track record is demented.

Who the fuck do you think will come here and do anything better with this bunch of (for the most part) journeymen? It will take at least another two windows before he is able to properly stamp his mark.

If you think another manager can get a tune out of the likes of Sigurdsson, Delph, etc, then name them. We've had too much of this "cut and shut" approach to managers and coaches; those calling for Ancellotti's head after less than a season and (realistically) one window need to have a long hard look at themselves.

The only criticism I have is he's overthinking his team selection... Nkounkou was a no-brainer at left-back (or left-wingback) against Leeds.

Ian Horan
53 Posted 01/12/2020 at 21:27:15
Darren Hind @44, behave man!

Calvert-Lewin gave an interview whilst away with England, thanking Carlo for his guidance and support and how he was benefitting from Carlo telling Calvert-Lewin to stay between the posts and model his game on Pippa Inzahgi's one-touch finishing.

Darren, you are sounding Trump-esque if you're going to come out with statements on Calvert-Lewin's development then research the detail, especially who Calvert-Lewin credits. Aerial ability is down to the lad being coached by Ferguson on heading as well.

Tony Marsh
54 Posted 01/12/2020 at 21:50:10
Carlo Ancelotti is a nice guy but that fact won't save him much longer if we keep on losing games like this. I have lost count now... what is it, 5 defeats from last 6 games? Liverpool were very unlucky not to have added another loss to the losing column.

Darren Hind is right – I never wanted Carlo here; his appointment was another Everton FC box-ticking job. An attempt to push a big name manger through the door to appease the fans. Well, it's not working. We needed a hungry man in charge at this club, not someone already looking forward to his retirement.

The football we play under Carlo Ancelotti is as bad as it was under Marco Silva... in fact, it's almost identical. Same mistakes with players made by Koeman and Silva are now being made by Ancelotti.

The hardest part to stomach is this notion by our fans that Carlo is some kind of football genius – a football God. All I have seen so far is Carlo getting taken to school by every decent manager he comes up against.

The FA Cup derby at Anfield last season was a particular favourite of mine. Liverpool's kids and Klopp taking the piss out of the old guy... Literally taking the fucking piss out of him.

If sacking Carlo isn't an option, then it's another long hard season. The fact Carlo left us with just one fit striker to start the season is simply mind boggling. If Dom's goals dry up, then what?

The truth is Ancelotti did all his trophy winning at massive super clubs. Clubs that were expected go win things. Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Chelsea etc. This job is a whole new ball game and I don't think Ancelotti fits the bill. Hope I am wrong but this season is now beginning to resemble the end of last season. Very worrying times.

Jay Harris
55 Posted 01/12/2020 at 22:02:32

What's with the hatefest for Carlo? I can understand your dissatisfaction. None of us is happy losing games and that's how it should be.

I am with you on team selection and tactics in certain games but I can't agree the man is useless and only here for a last payday.

We will not get anybody as good or experienced as Ancelotti and I doubt whether Moshiri even has it in mind to get rid of another manager so soon after his appointment.

When we've had the first-choice 11 playing to Carlo's tactics, I didn't see a single moan – in fact, some were even proclaiming we were in with a chance of winning the Premier League.

There are a number of mitigating factors in recent performances. Richarlison, James, Coleman and now Digne have all been unavailable – that's 4 of the first-choice 11.

Chelsea, with an enormously expensive and settled squad, are only 3 points ahead of us in 3rd place.

Patience is in short supply in the Premier League but, given the state of our club and where we want to be, 12 months is no time at all. All the great successful sides took 3 to 5 years to come good.

So have a pint and calm down, man.

Fran Mitchell
56 Posted 01/12/2020 at 22:35:06
If Carlo was only here for a payday, then he'd be in China, USA, Qatar where he'd get far greater pay, much less stress, and much better weather.

I don't believe he is a guaranteed success, and I am dissatisfied with our recent form.

I wish he would use more the younger players, and I wish our defence was better, and I had hoped he would get more from our underperforming big earners.

In the latter case, he actually has managed to: Coleman was woeful before Carlo arrived, and Digne was in poor form (by his standards) too. Iwobi has improved from his woeful start (although still not a £35 million player). And Keane has also improved – yet our poor defence means there is still something awry.

Unfortunately, there are some who seem beyond repair, and also with no hope of selling. It appears Ancelotti is trying to get something from them – but I think there's a better chance of this government making coherent policy than that ever happening.

I think the first thing we must deal with is accepting that getting top-6 place is not as easy as it was when Moyes was manager.

10 years ago, all that was necessary was a coherent squad with a couple of shrewd signings and solid, consistent manager (Aston Villa, Everton, Spurs – heck, even Bolton).

Now, we have wasted our 'chance'. Moyes leaving was our opportunity to step forward and challenge the top 4. We bollocksed it up, and have made woeful moves in the window trying to recover from that.

Spurs got a world class manager paired with a world class chairman and made that transition. We now have Wolves and Leicester who have also made similar developments. So, added to the traditional top 5, that is a battle for the top 7.

So we must, as much as it pains, temper our expectations. A transition from 11th to 6th will take more than just a manager.

Ancelotti has much to improve, but I would say yes, give him at least 2 more windows to shape the team and squad.

Alex Gray
57 Posted 01/12/2020 at 22:51:55
Tony, you mention that the football is almost identical to Silva's. Perhaps it's the lack of quality players to blame. You can't teach Sigurdsson to put a shift in or Davies how to make correct decisions.

Our flaws aren't tactical. With our first eleven fully fit we were flying and made current league leaders Spurs look awful. We have Digne and Coleman out with a half-fit James on top of that, alongside Gomes bang out of form. The replacements for these are garbage.

Jonjoe Kenny will never make it here and the fact Iwobi played at right-wingback over him speaks volumes. Bernard starting on the wing doesn't work. Gordon and Nkounkou are good prospects but, at the minute... that's it. Prospects.

Our bench consists of Tosun, Delph, Bernard and Sigurdsson all of which would not make a top-10 squad. That is why we've dropped off. No squad depth – and even Klopp wouldn't improve these lot.

Reality is we finished bottom half last season. At the minute, we're 7th but need more windows of getting rid of said bench and replacing them with quality of the likes of Allan and James.

This is going to take time, lads.

Don Alexander
58 Posted 01/12/2020 at 22:59:25
Dazza, I don't know if you're aware of it but – almost immediately a new manager is appointed – you strongly condemn him. Now you might well respond that you were, eventually, proved right and we all know that means such a lot to you (my grandson has the same tendency as he approaches 10) but occasionally you too allude to what I and others identify as the club's biggest problem – the lack leadership from the boardroom, for decades.

Patience is required re Carlo Ancelotti, and a change at the top. No manager has been able to extract anything desirable from most of the squad in the past few years. I'm convinced that the inner football industry has for decades rightly identified our boardroom as the easiest to run rings round in the Premier League, agents very much to the fore.

Our boardroom have allowed the club to be repeatedly spread over the barrel for decades, accommodating the likes of Green, Earl and Leahy as alleged benefactors, and that's before we get to agents and players who aren't even called Rodger!

Leadership? Pish!!

Dale Self
59 Posted 02/12/2020 at 00:35:43
That any respectable Everton fan would suggest sending him off in shorter time than Silva or Koeman is the punchline here.
Dale Self
60 Posted 02/12/2020 at 00:37:45
Did someone just refer to Levy as a world class chairman? I'll have to clean my keyboard up now, thanks for that!
Fran Mitchell
61 Posted 02/12/2020 at 00:55:04
Dale: Levy delivered possibly the best stadium in the country. Levy is a rigourous negotiator, rarely over paying (there'd be no £35 million Iwobi, £45 million Sigurdsson, £30 million Bolasie, £25 million Tosun etc with Levy as Chairman) and always charging top money for any sales, and if the club doesn't cough up, the player stays.

If Harry Kane was a blue, he'd have joined Man Utd or someone a long time ago. And he also keeps the wage bill down (no Bernard on £100k+ and etc etc).

He may not splash the cash like fans want, but they have now been a consistent top 6 team and more recently top 4 team for 10+ years. And the club isn't posting record losses year upon year.

All this with a relatively middling club in terms of history.

Compare to what Bill Kenwright has achieved in his 20+ years as chairman.

What about Levy makes you suggest he isn't?

John Pierce
62 Posted 02/12/2020 at 04:33:18
Fran, I concur with most of that but you can never underestimate the premium we pay for being in the north west and the income generating power of a London club. The two are poles apart.

The extra £20k/week to entice players soon mounts up and I'm not sure when surrounded by Man Utd, Man City & Liverpool helps either. I think the waste we perceive isn't as horrendous as we think; I believe it has to be paid to get deals done.

What other club in the league has to deal with the hegemony in the Northwest and the pulling power of London? I think, whatever Kenwright's issues and Levy's successes, each have their hands coloured by their geography. I'm not absolving our chairman but I think there's a fair point to be had there.

Back to the thread in hand, a lot of stuck records, several which make Klopp's whinging look tame by comparison. We've more points now than only three other seasons in recent times, in the last decade, I believe. The issues Carlo has are clear but are they so much worse than what others have to put up with? Almost every side in the league looks to have issues.

Man City are struggling to score, Man Utd are Jekyll and Hyde, Arsenal have ground to a halt, Newcastle win but Bruce plays soporific football that the fans hate, the bottom four look like cannon fodder.

We are far from the disaster painted by the extreme views that percolate on this site.

Everton have set a course and it's my feeling that Moshiri, despite his previous trigger finger, is not for turning and he's going to see this through.

Darren Hind
63 Posted 02/12/2020 at 05:39:49
Ian Horan,

You may want to do a little research yourself because you seem a little empty on facts.

You may think players giving standard answers to loaded questions about their club managers represents some sort of "proof" for your argument. It doesn't. Its what they all do.

You will be hard-pushed to find the interview where a player calls his current manager a complete wanker. Their place in the first team depends upon being selected by him.

Actions speak louder than words and when you see Ferguson and Calvert-Lewin celebrating together as often as you do, you are witnessing two men seeing the fruits of their labours. Ferguson has spent hour after hour with Calvert-Lewin. He didn't just offer him the blindingly obvious insight like "stay between the posts", or watch a few Inzahgi tapes. He gave him the freedom (and partner) to make it possible.

Carlo good for Calvert-Lewin?... Let's see if that has more to it than empty-headed fanboy reading.

Carlo Ancelotti took charge of his first game on Boxing Day. A goal from Calvert-Lewin (playing in the role Ferguson had found for him) gave him three points. Two days later (before Carlo had even got his players on the training ground) a brace from Calvert-Lewin gave him another three points – six points before he had even got his coat off.

Carlo, being a "wiley old fox", simply kept the partnership created by Ferguson and he was rewarded (credited) when Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison kept banging them in for fun... This is where it gets interesting.

After lockdown, Calvert-Lewin's form fell off a cliff, despite being under the guidance of the great "mentor and Guru". He simply couldn't buy a goal. Most managers will shuffle things around when that happens; not Carlo. He had no Plan B. When Calvert-Lewin's goals dried up, Carlo Fantastico suddenly became Carlo Notascoobyo. His inheritance money had been put on hold and, as a consequence, we were made to endure the worst football in memory.

Fast-forward to the start 2020-21. Calvert-Lewin has had the summer to reflect on his poor form and comes back firing on all cylinders. He renews his partnership with Richarlison and they are looking pretty impressive Unfortunately, as we all know, the wheels are about to come off.

A foolish challenge in the derby see's Richarlison handed a ban. Carlo can't bring in his natural replacement, because he's waved him off to Paris. So what does he do?

Wellll... being a wiley old fox, he turns back the clock back 12 months and asks Calvert-Lewin to perform the same task Marco Silva asked him to perform. He asks him to lead the line on his Jack, become a pack mule... "Go and look at a few Marcus Bent clips, Dominic."

No wonder Marshy says he can't tell the fucking difference between the football played under Silva and what we are seeing now.

Those who have gleaned their information from daft-arsed interviews given to fan-boy magazines and websites could be forgiven for believing Carlo Ancelotti has saved the career of Dominic Calvert-Lewin. Those who observe the game closely, and have the ability to think for themselves, will have long since realised it's the other fucking way round.

If Carlo had not inherited Calvert-Lewin and his goals, is reputation would already be shreeded.

Tony Abrahams
64 Posted 02/12/2020 at 07:51:07
Don @58, not to get you started on your pet subject but I've long been convinced that we are in a horrible Catch-22 situation, mate.

I think Kenwright wants to stay on board until Everton win something, but I think he's a jinx and we won't win anything until he's gone.

I hope I'm wrong but that's how I genuinely see things. I feel we won't be nothing but plucky little Everton until he's gone.

Ray Robinson
65 Posted 02/12/2020 at 09:01:59
Darren, the alternative facts you present to Ian Horan also contain much supposition – as though you know what's going on in Ancelotti's mind – which you clearly don't.

I repeat my earlier question. Would you sack him now? If so, who would you like in his place?

You acknowledging that Ancelotti will be here for the foreseeable future gives you carte blanche to continue to criticise him – until one day he does get the sack and you are proved right. How convenient.

But what positive action would you take right now?

Steve Shave
66 Posted 02/12/2020 at 09:04:03
We are all entitled to our opinions but I simply cannot for the life of me understand any calls above for Carlo's head on a stick at this stage of the season. Utterly ridiculous, knee-jerk bullshit.

No, I am not a Carlo apologist; no, I do not think things are going well; no, I have not sung "Carlo Magnifico" whilst dancing round my living room for some time... but come on, sacking manager after manager has not worked.

We need to give him time and transfer windows. Just get behind the team, for fuck's sake.

Christine Foster
67 Posted 02/12/2020 at 09:50:12
Legacy... today, we have a manager picking up the pieces of a decimated club. Bad management choices, bad purchases, bad decision-making. Allardyce, Koeman, Silva... that's the legacy of a club happy to just stay in the Premier League, the sum ambition.

We sold off everything to chase a Tesco car park in Kirkby, we believed a chairman more interested in his wallet than safeguarding the future of the club.

That was the legacy Moshiri, then eventually Ancelotti inherited, a team fragmented by the incomprehensible choices of successive managers, not a team. We knew it, the players knew it.

This is going to take several seasons to sort out, players out of the door and a team built. The holes we have, have been there well before our latest manager; adding quality and depth of quality, something we do not have, will take a few windows.

We have a manager with a significant pedigree for winning but he has to have the tools to do the job. The legacy of the club's mistakes limit choices he has currently. This is not in defence of him but rather the perspective that with him we have a manager who knows how to win trophies and, like it or not, he is still, in all probability, our best chance of winning anything in the immediate future.

Eddie Dunn
68 Posted 02/12/2020 at 09:53:25
Steve- indeed, I have been arguably impatient with Martinez, Koeman and Silva but who knows what would have happened had they been given longer? We could be sitting in the top 4 or in the Championship.

However we simply can't select a coach of this proven ability and not back him in terms of money and, more importantly, time. The only reason to pull the plug would be if we were flirting with relegation and I don't see that possibility.

He has undoubtedly made some strange decisions but, in a year, we will have more evidence as to his worth and our progress (or lack of it).

Brian Harrison
69 Posted 02/12/2020 at 09:58:31
I think we would all do well to remember how the most successful manager that the Premier League has had started. 6 years of winning nothing at this country's biggest club. So, if proof was needed that it takes time to build a good side, then that perfectly described the patience that is needed.

Ferguson, like Ancelotti, joined a dysfunctional club that had struggled for success for quite a while and, in our case, Ancelotti took over from 5 other managers who failed and spent an absolute fortune in doing so. To get rid of deadwood takes time; also to change the mindset of a club who have won nothing for a very long time.

Yes, we all want success today, not tomorrow, and we all know how frustrating watching Everton has been for quite a while. So maybe we should ask has Ancelotti's buys been a big improvement on what was already here, and I think even his most ardent critic would have to say Yes to that.

Has everything gone as we all hoped after a great start to the season? No, it hasn't, but consistency seems to be affecting most teams in these strange times. I think, apart from Digne, and Richarlison, most fans would happily have seen most of that first team replaced.

Let's not forget that Calvert-Lewin and Keane were struggling with their form. So not a great place to start from for a new manager. The ones who say Calvert-Lewin's success has been mostly down to Duncan Ferguson, then in fairness there is no doubt Ferguson has worked closely with Calvert-Lewin but to deny Ancelotti has had any effect on the improvement in Calvert-Lewin is being churlish in my view.

We have signed a man who has won everything you could possibly win in the game, so surely we need to all let him get on with his job. I believe, in 2 or 3 seasons, Ancelotti will have won trophies and will have built a team we can be proud of.

Now I am sure some will say he should be getting a better tune out of his present squad and maybe the constant changing of systems and players haven't helped... and to some extent I agree. But we criticized our last 5 managers for having no Plan B. Well, you can hardly accuse Ancelotti of that.

For the first 5 games were we won 4 and drew 1, he kept the same side; it was only injuries and latterly suspensions that forced him to make changes he wouldn't have done normally.

Dave Williams
70 Posted 02/12/2020 at 10:24:30
Graeme #10 makes a very valid point that we have not had consistency since Moyes left.

Regardless of people's view of Moyes's behaviour when he left, what Graeme says is spot-on and in many ways we can be likened to Man Utd, who have struggled to get consistency since Fergie retired. Arsenal are having the same issues now too.

Sacking managers regularly doesn't work. It results in a huge change of staff, a change in style of play, a turnover of players and leaves a club not knowing where it is going or how to get there.

Formations change, training changes, manager's attitudes are different and I think we have reached a point, as others have said, where we have to stick rather than twist and give Carlo's regime a chance over three seasons.

I have been as critical as most – I can't understand him ignoring good youngsters while he plays Sigurdsson, Delph and allows the totally inept Tosun a run from the bench. I can't understand why he doesn't ditch Keane (Dave Abraham's did a great post yesterday about him being the problem in defence) and play speedy centre-backs who will allow us to play higher up and close that gaping hole between defence and midfield.

The problem with all of these criticisms is that Carlo sees the players every day and (I hope) knows what he is doing and has a plan. We all make mistakes and his team selection for Burnley will show us whether he accepts that he made two big ones against Leeds. (I thought Tom Davies had a decent game but he is better as an orthodox full-back than a wingback.)

We must give him time.

Steve Shave
71 Posted 02/12/2020 at 11:23:36
Brian 69 - well said that man.
Rob Dolby
72 Posted 02/12/2020 at 11:26:33
Out of 11 years of Moyes, we had one good season and a couple of cup runs.

Every time he got us into a good position he never strengthened us. He lowered expectations to an all-time low to protect his own interest. He was the highest-paid person at the club.

Those rose-tinted glasses are out for a lot of people if they think it was good under Moyes.

Barry Rathbone
73 Posted 02/12/2020 at 11:27:00
Barry Rathbone
74 Posted 02/12/2020 at 11:27:00
According to Wiki, Abramovich has changed managers 16 times between 2003 and 2019 – that's getting on for a change every season.

"Change doesn't work" is yet another fallacy to add to the Everton excuse-fest collection.

Rob Dolby
75 Posted 02/12/2020 at 11:50:48
Barry. How many times have Forest changed their manager over the last 10 years?

Abramovich is a good example of how a multi billionaire can invest heavily into the first team whilst chopping and changing managers.
This season alone he has invested over £200M. Their £70M goalie is now surplus to requirements. They regularly have 30 players out on loan. We aren't in the same league spending wise as Chelsea.

In my opinion, this is the best chance that we have had since Joe Royle of competing – and that's only if Moshiri bankrolls the manager with marquee signings.

To be taken seriously as competitive, Ancelotti needs to be able to go and break our transfer record a few times over to strength us; otherwise, we are all hoping for a Leicester-type miracle to happen.

Steve Brown
76 Posted 02/12/2020 at 12:02:28
Barry, Sunderland?
Steve Brown
77 Posted 02/12/2020 at 12:07:23
Steve @ 66, well said that man.

Fortunately, this thread has yielded some comedy gold as usual. The raw emotion and symbolism of ‘the hug' was a laugh-out-loud moment.

Jay Wood

78 Posted 02/12/2020 at 13:05:25
Barry @ 74.

"According to Wiki Abramovich has changed managers 16 times between 2003 and 2019 that's getting on for a change every season.

"Change doesn't work" is yet another fallacy to add to the Everton excuse fest collection."

As obvious an example of reaching an erroneous conclusion from a false premise as could be presented.

For your claim to be valid it must be universally true. Watford had five managers during last season's Premier League campaign. How did that work out for them?

Chelsea's success is only based on them changing their manager virtually every season under Abramavich..?

Nothing to do with the wealth and purchasing power of one of the world's richest men able to fund extravagant player purchases year-on-year for 17 years, or to contract and pay off the very best managers on a whim with loose change down the back of his sofa, then..?

This table is a good pointer as to who and why certain clubs in the last two decades mop up all the trophies.

Premier League Transfer Table Since 2003

I don't think it includes Chelsea's spending spree this season of £200+ million. Everton's numbers have only been bumped up in the last four years under Moshiri, otherwise we'd be grubbing it way down the league with perennial yo-yo clubs Watford and Norwich.

A silly claim, Barry.

Ken Kneale
79 Posted 02/12/2020 at 13:11:43
David Moyes and the shambolic ownership lowered the expectation of Everton and the standing of the club to the lowest point in its existence and yet he staggeringly kept his job without any pressure from the directorate for the whole time.

The fact the same directorate stripped the club bare and has subsequently invested millions without a plan should not make us want Moyes or anything he did for our club back.

I for one have not lowered my demands or expectations as a supporter and refuse to do so – those responsible for the plight of the club over the last 30 years should be ashamed.

Brian Murray
80 Posted 02/12/2020 at 14:18:51

A club only aspires to the club's demands and, as you say, most Blues under 50 have had it drummed into them by the media and Moyes that we should be grateful to even be on the same table as their usual suspects and the obvious love-in over the road.

Carlo's profile will at least make us serious players. Whether he can get us over the line is another story. He preaches simplicity so what happened to that!

Tom Bowers
81 Posted 02/12/2020 at 15:17:01
Very few managers can get success when the budget is limited or at least way behind that of the current top clubs of the last 10 years whose names always remain the same.

When you have unlimited finance, then you can have strength in depth, which is a big advantage when you lose key players to injury or suspension.

The lesser clubs are usually forced to rush an injured player back too quickly, which usually doesn't help the player or the team, whereas the fortunate clubs can just slot in another competent replacement without disrupting the team and ensuring the injured player recovers fully before being utilized again.

I don't think for one minute Everton yet have the strength in depth required, so it will take time for Carlo to address that situation.

Yes, he brought in Doucouré, Allan and James along with Godfrey but a lot more has to be done, especially as James has become a target of ''hatchetmen''. The replacements available to Carlo at Goodison appear not to be ready and some may never be of the quality required.

January may see some movement to improve the squad whilst expelling some of the ''underachievers''. We certainly hope so.

In the meantime, Carlo should at least be given till the end of the season before talk of axing him.

Mike Gaynes
82 Posted 02/12/2020 at 15:43:22
You struck a major chord, Kieran. Good job.
Barry Rathbone
83 Posted 02/12/2020 at 15:57:31

"For your claim to be valid it must be universally true."

Don't be silly.

Conor McCourt
84 Posted 02/12/2020 at 15:57:59
Just to be clear, we are Everton Football Club, not Carlo Ancelotti Football Club. The vigour and desire our supporters have for this manager – I wish our players had it for our shirt.

Let's deal with assumptions permeating through this thread:

1) Calls for Ancelotti to be sacked are crazy? Me, I agree, who are they? Where are they? I haven't seen one.

2) Carlo has inherited an unbalanced mess. Yes, I agree... but he and Brands have made it much worse this summer. We needed a right-back, holding midfielder, right-winger and a left-sided centre-back. We needed to offload at least one second-man midfielder and one Number 10 as there are numerous at the club.

Instead, we have stockpiled two more second-man midfielders and another Number 10. None of the others already here have been removed. Instead, we removed an important striker and wideman and bought another right-footed central defender. Madness – even if you love Ancelotti and like the players he bought.

Allied to this, he is playing all three of the major signings in roles which don't bring out the best in their talents and have arguably been a liability to the balance of the team.

3) Next assumption is how good we are doing. John Pierce, a poster I normally quite like, has echoed some of the garbage written on other threads about our start. Comparing this season's fixtures with others is totally irrelevant because they are not like for like. We have played all the bottom teams bar Burnley and Sheffield and, of the three top teams we have played, two were at home.

You couldn't have planned the fixture list to accumulate points better in the first 10 games. If you go through the predicted results, we are underperforming and we have many of the top sides to come – of which Carlo has only one scalp in nearly a year of management.

Nobody would be critical of Carlo if we qualify for Europe this season, which is our objective and why we bought ready-made players with little shelf-life. Indeed, as Robert points out, we have the seventh most valuable squad, hence 7th place should be the minimum target.

4) Our first XI is a match for anyone. This is an assumption Brian and others continually make based on the assertion we were excellent in those first four games. However, if you look at Carlo's entire tenure, we have generally performed well against the really poor teams and struggled against the better teams.

Personally, I only feel we were excellent against Spurs with our new signings bringing increased motivation and we beat essentially three pub teams when confidence was high and our front three on fire. Under Carlo, we beat those teams last season also and indeed we had all our first XI available against Leeds bar the full-backs and no-one would argue the game was lost there as Leeds dominated the midfield.

5) Feeding into the above assumption is that we are unlucky with injuries. If you look at all teams, they have similar amounts of injuries this season and this is not an excuse as it is part and parcel of this busy schedule.

Indeed, we have been so lucky so far with a player like James who hasn't played in even half of his games for about five campaigns. He has missed only one league game for us – which is extraordinary for a player with his injury profile.

In conclusion, nobody is asking for miracles... but we are asking to be able to compete with the likes of Leeds and Southampton.

Tony Abrahams
85 Posted 02/12/2020 at 16:41:28
Southampton are a point ahead of us, Leeds are two points behind us, although both of them teams have beat us.

I keep using the word 'conundrum', and this is the dilemma I personally think Ancellotti, has right now.

I'd try and tighten things up, which would have to be at the expense of the super talented Rodriguez, but I'm not the manager, and I'm not taking a long-term view of the situation.

I feel we are on the right lines but, unless we have all of our better players fit, we are going to struggle at times, just like Ancellotti did on Saturday, especially using Iwobi the way he did.

I wouldn't argue with people who say Michael Keane has improved, but I think we defend way too deep when Keane is playing.

Unlike after the restart when we were defending deep as a team, this is definitely not the case now, so the pitch seems too big at the minute, with too many gaps, and too much space for the opposition to play in.

Which also means that we are just too easy to play against right now.

Jay Wood

86 Posted 02/12/2020 at 17:12:56
Barry @ 83. You started it.

I just run with the silliness of your own lazy logic. A flawed logic in which you doubled-down on your silliness by somehow making Everton fans complicit in a fallacy of your own making, an 'Everton excuse-fest collection.'

Carry on.

Ken Kneale
87 Posted 02/12/2020 at 17:28:34

I agree – I think we all want the same thing for Everton and, to me, this thread should be about whether Carlo's profile will restore some much-needed pride and prestige to Goodison Park and how he is going to go about such task.

He seems to be sending very mixed messages to me with well-chosen words and an easy manner, set against a lack of delivery against any form of a clear identity on the pitch or training methods to deal with what look like very sluggish players.

Winston Williamson
88 Posted 02/12/2020 at 18:03:03
More jam tomorrow. I've stayed away from football sites for a while, dipping my toe in every now and then. After another shameful, gutless performance, we always hear the same "jam tomorrow" blag.

I'm tired of this pitiful, gutless, half-hearted team. I've devoted near 40 years to supporting this absolute disaster of a club. I've enticed my son into a life of misery too (I feel very guilty about that).

We get fuck-all in return. Nothing. Some fucking fucktard of a playing squad, playing like they don't give a shit, expensively produced and maintained.

A steady stream of managers who display the knowledge, passion, intelligence of fucking slugs.

Owners who are incapable of growing a brand, even if marketing opportunities are under their fucking noses.

To top it off, the fuckers across the way laugh at us constantly and the only comebacks we have are listed in the fucking history books.

I'm tired of supporting this shit. Until someone, anyone, at this club shows the same level of desire, passion and will to fucking win, as the supporters do, they (and we) are destined for nothingness forevermore – and it's as simple as that.

Barry Rathbone
89 Posted 02/12/2020 at 21:04:39

Give me lazy logic based on irrefutable facts to your lies every day of the week.

What an infantile buffoon you are

Dale Self
90 Posted 02/12/2020 at 21:27:27
Alright Fran, I took a swipe at Levy so I will defend that although I have not sufficiently researched the business side of football to really hold my own there.
Let's keep in mind world-class is the standard not a comparison to Kenwright. It seems he left Poch a little underinvested at a time when Spurs were on their greatest ascent. They were the lowest spenders in the transfer market among the top six that year. Sacking your manager who is well respected after he just took you to the Champions League final doesn't strike me as world-class either.
Going back further, AVB and 'Arry are on his list of casualties and just going by memory they always seemed to deserve the 'Spursy' tag which you wouldn't think would happen under world-class leadership. I'm not saying he's crap but he's rather focused on the financial aspects more than a chairman who has made people love his club. Sorry if I offended you but I just don't like the guy.
Jay Wood

91 Posted 02/12/2020 at 21:29:51

'Oh-h-h, the delicious irony of your words.'

[Said in best Sideshow Bob tone].

Joe McMahon
92 Posted 02/12/2020 at 21:45:14
Winston @88, I fully understand how you feel. I'm surrounded by reds and I live 50 miles from Goodison, I get pity off them now. I cringe when I hear the happy clappy Grand Old Team, just about sums up what Everton have become, as does a dated Goodison. There have been many missed opportunities, and I've always thought the Kings Dock failure the biggest.
Andy Peers
93 Posted 02/12/2020 at 21:48:46
Winston 88. Exactly!!!
Derek Thomas
94 Posted 03/12/2020 at 00:28:01
This is the Ancelotti thread, but whither Brands in all this? Moshiri will have to back Ancelotti true, we don't have to necessarily spend big, but we do have to spend... Wisely.
Derek Thomas
95 Posted 03/12/2020 at 01:22:52
Around last October, 14 months ago, Silva had to go, but who would replace him?

If I remember correctly, due to a lack of obvious and available candidates, there was a general calling for... anybody but Silva... or Moyes. (I was nearly a lone voice for Bielsa.)

6 December: Silva sacked after 5-2 Derby defeat – Ferguson appointed.
8 December: Chelsea game.
10 December: Ancelotti sacked
21 December: Ancelotti appointed (allegedly after meeting with Usmanov).

Nearly 12 months on... and what a 12 months, here we are season in 2020-21.

Ancelotti is going nowhere – yet... so wait until next October or November and see where we are then. Oh and on the horizon, we'll have the 2022 winter World Cup to possibly compress and distort everything too.

One game at a time – just beat Burnley please.

If there was a rush of blood to Moshiri's head and the axe did fall on Monday, there are still no obvious candidates apart from Ferguson... but we all know Kenwright's eyes will turn to the rejuvenated ex-employee at West Ham.

Darren Hind
96 Posted 03/12/2020 at 04:39:12
Conor @84,

"Who are they? Where are they? I haven't seen one"

There is a very good reason for that my friend. Even those who didn't want Carlo know he is not going to be sacked.

A complete red herring of an article. A thread designed to give Carlo's disciples the opportunity to throw their arms up in outrage at the very suggestion.

What we are witnessing in this thread is the depressing result of people thinking they are supporting the club by apologising for an under-performing manager. Some of the strawman arguments and comparisons with managers of other clubs defy belief. If we are going to make comparisons with managers of other clubs, why not make sensible ones?

When glass ceiling Davey returned to the East End, he wasn't returning to a ship which had been steadied, by a Duncan Ferguson. He was returning to a team which was staring down the barrel of relegation... at a club whose recent history makes EFC look like a well-run operation.

I would like to ask those who constantly throw "The situation Carlo inherited" as the reason anybody expecting simple progress is expecting too much too soon: What would constitute success for you? A trophy? Champions League football? Or would you be standing and applauding if Carlo Fantastico managed to win his personal duel with the much-maligned Ginger Twat?

Moyes has long since been written off as a manager. He gets paid a fraction of what Carlo gets. He inherited a far worse situation, yet he wakes up this morning looking down on him.

I sincerely hope "he of the mythical pulling power" can find a way to leapfrog then put clear daylight between us and Dithering Dave's Happy 'ammer's, because if he doesn't, I fear there is a very real possibility that I will die of shame.

Tony Abrahams
97 Posted 03/12/2020 at 07:42:28
Moyes is doing what Moyes does best, fighting and punching above his weight!
Ray Robinson
98 Posted 03/12/2020 at 07:59:03
Darren, for the third time of asking, can I ask you what YOU would do with Ancelotti? Never mind that you "know he is not going to be sacked" - that is a red herring to avoid answering the question. Would YOU sack our "under-performing" manager (some of your criticism I agree with, by the way): Yes or No?

If no answer is forthcoming, I would infer that you WOULD as this is the only logical deduction from the barrage of unmitigated criticism directed at him.

Joe McMahon
99 Posted 03/12/2020 at 09:38:53
Hi everyone,

As I've read on this thread about Carlo's wealth compared to Moyes, when Moyes was at Everton, he was one of the highest-paid managers in Europe – as ludicrous as that sounds. He has also raked in millions from being sacked or relieved of his duties. He's certainly okay financially.

Barry Rathbone
100 Posted 03/12/2020 at 09:49:04

I don't see that inference at all in my take on Darren and the similar-minded is they simply want Carlo to live up to his billing, which he is not.

Carlo will get more latitude than previous incumbents because of his CV but much more of the Southampton, Leeds efforts and his CV will count for nothing.

The frustration for many is the same excuses have been doing the rounds since the days of Walter Smith; these fellas are paid millions to sort it out and none have.

Chris Leyland
101 Posted 03/12/2020 at 10:13:48
There are people who don't want Carlo sacked just so they can continue to poke at him on these pages and be the big know-it-alls.

The ones who haven't wanted any of the recent managers and have said so as soon as they were appointed, just so they can snipe and snide and say “I told you so” from the safety of their keyboards.

The ones who say they wanted someone else, safe in the knowledge that it hasn't happened so they can't be proved wrong.

The ones who seem to know for sure why certain players have improved and who it is down to despite knowing fuck-all about it.

They have nothing constructive to say. They are the fanboys of doom and negativity.

Ray Robinson
102 Posted 03/12/2020 at 10:22:17
Barry, I think we probably all want the same thing – Ancelotti to step up to the mark, justify his salary and deliver improvements. However, if the level of criticism has already reached a certain point, surely you would want to do something about it?

From what I read in Darren's posts, his level of tolerance has already been far exceeded. How long do you give an underachiever time to deliver? Would Darren sack him now?

I would give Ancelotti at least a couple more windows before making any assessment. In some people's eyes, that might perpetuate the argument that I am willing to accept even more "mediocrity" meanwhile.

Just criticising incessantly while accepting that he will be here for the foreseeable future, is ducking the issue. What would any such person do about it now, if he / she felt that strongly?

Ian Horan
103 Posted 03/12/2020 at 11:07:31
It's interesting when we see Carlo "apologists" or " disciples" yet the perceived apologists' and disciples' opinion is seen by the all knowledgeable sages on here as acceptance of mediocrity!!

Let's be clear: we all want success and entertainment; god forbid we actually achieved this as the knowledgeable sages would have fuck-all to whine about.

Opinions are like arseholes, we all have them, some more reliable than others. It's clear Ancelotti is not everyone's cup of tea but I believe we need to be more pragmatic in our thinking, at our current position in the football hierarchy, we have best available manager we could wish to get. Ancelotti is a football manager – not fucking Harry Potter. Let the man get on with his job and support the club!!

Generally Everton supporters are well-rounded, educated, and above all realists. Sadly, we appear to have a lot of antagonists who just love an argument just to liven up their dull mundane lives. It's either their sport or their existence.

Barry Rathbone
104 Posted 03/12/2020 at 11:08:57

I don't think anyone is for sacking him right now but the criticism will continue if he carries on uninspiring. Fans have a great capacity for raising the volume when things aren't going to plan.

Gerard Pauls
105 Posted 03/12/2020 at 11:10:34
Going off-topic, boys, I know, but what odds do we get that LFC's planning request for an increase in seating for Anfield Road is passed well before our permission to commence Bramley-Moore Dock is even considered?

I say this as it's gone very quiet with regard to Bamley-Moord Dock from all sides... so much for "It will be finalised by December. I know we're only in the first week but it's been mentioned for 12 months and the silence is deafening.

Brian Murray
106 Posted 03/12/2020 at 11:19:40
Ray @102, Here we go again... Give the manager another window or two...

Why is it too much to always ask an Everton manager to pick players in their best position and be able to change a game with an inspired substitution, and not just have the old one-paced favourites on the bench?

Hope we all have this woefully wrong and the likes of Simms, Onyango and Gordon are about to be given a proper chance to see if they could save us millions instead of us clinging to this "another window ... on the brink of jam butties" crap!

Brian Harrison
107 Posted 03/12/2020 at 12:06:49
I said in an earlier post that we should remember that Sir Alex Ferguson went 6 years without winning a trophy at Man Utd and their fans should be grateful the club stood by him. We all know that he went on to be the most successful manager in Man Utd's history.

But we can also look at our most successful manager, Howard Kendall, he took over from Gordon Lee in the summer of 1981. With the financial backing of Sir John Moores, he bought 7 players that summer: Alan Ainscow, Jim Arnold, Alan Biley, Mick Ferguson, Mike Walsh, Mickey Thomas, and Neville Southall – they were laughingly dubbed the Magnificent Seven.

Only Southall was magnificent – the rest were some of the worst players I have ever seen play for our club. Move forward to season 1983-84 and Everton had won just 6 in 21 games and fans were demonstrating for Howard to be sacked; the low point was our game against Coventry on New Year's Eve when only 13,659 attended the drab 0 - 0 game. Talk about people voting with their feet – one of the lowest crowds ever to attend a top-flight game at Goodison. But the board stood by him and we all know what happened.

So maybe we can use these examples how sometimes patience is rewarded, and maybe it should tell us that maybe both Man Utd and Everton may be in very different places if the fans' wishes had been carried out and both men had been sacked.

I would also point out that Howard had only managed Blackburn in the 2nd Division so it was a massive leap of faith for the board to back him when results probably suggested otherwise.

Robert Tressell
108 Posted 03/12/2020 at 12:12:02
The simple fact is that if you are not going to outspend your rivals then you're going to have to take a bit of time to build.

Other than Leicester, our rivals have more valuable squads (like at least £100M more valuable) and have at least as big a transfer budget too. And when we go toe to toe for a player (Højbjerg and Gabriel Maghaeles) we generally lose because we're not champions league or thereabouts.

This means we need a very strong recruitment strategy to make any ground at all on those above us, irrespective of manager.

A quality manager can help keep us kind of where we should be (about 7th) but any significant advance on that cannot be achieved just through good tactics and coaching.

Leicester have shown that excellent recruitment and a good manager together make a big difference. But Leicester have a big head start on us because their approach to recruitment has been excellent for many years now. Ours is patchy, to say the least.

That is why I think we can't really judge Carlo (other than infuriating game-by-game grumbles) for what he has achieved (or not) until at least another summer window.

Jim Harrison
109 Posted 03/12/2020 at 12:25:59
Time in the market, not fast gains.

Calvert-Lewin is doing great. But he is not Harry Kane. He doesn't make his own chances.

The squad isn't strong enough to absorb injuries to key players. Expensive transfers that haven't delivered are still on the books from previous management.

Give the guy a real run.

Did anyone think that we were actually top 4 contenders going into this season? It's going to take some time. 10 games in, the manager has undoubtedly made some poor calls, but he has also made many good ones.

Ray Robinson
110 Posted 03/12/2020 at 12:47:08
Barry #104, of course fans have a great capacity for turning up the volume if things don't go according to plan. It's the fans who start off at maximum volume before the manager has even had time to enact a plan that I find annoying – presumably because they think he was the "wrong" appointment in the first place.

Brian #106, your criticisms are spot on. Ancelotti is not beyond reproach in this regard. I do hope that he can promote some of the younger players and thereby save us a fortune in transfer windows – but I'm not at all convinced that that alone will take us to the level to which we all aspire.

I think some transfer activity is inevitable. There's an awful lot of dross to replace. Unfortunately, both routes, promoting youth and / or engaging in the transfer market, take patience. That's why, in my opinion, Ancelotti deserves some considerable time in-post despite the justified "game-by-game grumbles".

I've said enough on this post now. Don't want to bore people further.

Robert Tressell
111 Posted 03/12/2020 at 13:00:12
The real question is how do we make the 7th most valuable squad in the league better than those above us without outspending our rivals.
Derek Thomas
112 Posted 03/12/2020 at 13:06:57
Robert @111; "The real question is how do we make the 7th most valuable squad in the league better than those above us without outspending our rivals?"

Over to you Mr Director of Football - I'm looking for a new contract - Brands

Fran Mitchell
113 Posted 03/12/2020 at 13:27:42
Also Robert, you mention Leicester:

They are 2 points above us, battered by an injury decimated Liverpool and then to Fulham. They were also woeful after lockdown.

So those that think Ancelotti is past it and crap and only here for a paycheck would probably be calling for Rodger's head too.

Derek Taylor
114 Posted 03/12/2020 at 13:57:26
Brian @ 107, without taking a position on Ancelotti, I think you will find that those clubs who have shown patience with managers fare no better or worse than those who favour constant change. And virtually all managers eventually fail if only because their message to players becomes stale by repetition. And it is fallacy to believe that hanging on to apparently failing managers is any guarantee of eventual success.

Of the parade of managers working under Moshiri, only Martinez has given us much to cheer about, ( he lasted c200 games) so should he have been 'given even more time' to bring success? But I can recall little support for him at the time of his termination and the same could be said of Koeman, Allardyce and Silva.

Monster settlement terms will, I believe, serve to keep the Ancelotti family in post in spite of anything other than relegation - the prospect of which is ludicrous - and a few wins followed by a similar run of losses will be all expected of them during a long term reign.

'Keep the faith' is likely to be the message. As ever.

Bobby Mallon
115 Posted 03/12/2020 at 14:26:43
Darren Hind @44,

Duncan Ferguson is solely responsible for the destruction of Moise Kean. He was the manager who made a fool of the lad by subbing him after what 10 mins. That moment was when Kean decided he wanted out and, no matter who was manager, he would have went.

Jason Li
116 Posted 03/12/2020 at 14:31:39
I know many a red who are gutted Ancelotti joined our club. He is the real deal.

Looking at the struggle Mancini had at Man City and the money spent to win their first league title in decades, it won't happen overnight. Not unless Moshiri can finance it to happen more quickly.

We can stick to our game plan, and let Carlo bring in another 3-4 players who are top-4-type class players from this winter until the end of next summer's transfer window, and see us go up another level.

At least when our best 11 are fit, this season in 2020 vs last season's best 11 all fully fit in 2019, this season are so much better to watch due to Ancelotti.

Jay Wood

117 Posted 03/12/2020 at 14:33:34
Coming back to Kieran's cleverly crafted opening post – from its teasing headline to its content – it's interesting and informative how it is being interpreted by different TWers.

I personally don't read it as a blinkered or passive acceptance and saccharine eulogy on the virtues of all things Ancelotti. To me, it neatly demonstrates that the fluctuating performance of club and manager is not unique to Everton. Nor is the disquiet expressed by the fan base exclusive to us Blue Nosers only.

With regard to Everton, we are all seeing, hearing, reading the same thing. Only, each and every one of us have our own perception and different interpretation of the same event.

No-one – absolutely no-one – can legitimately claim to have the definitive view on all things Everton.

Yes, some are more antagonistic than others, totally intolerant of other views, positioning themselves as the only true ‘seers' amongst us.

They're not. Their view – which they are fully entitled to – is no more valid than the one diametrically opposed to their position.

Even the most antagonistic in this thread acknowledges that Carlo Ancelotti is not getting the sack any time soon.

So, if such antagonists are accepting of that fact, is it any surprise when others with greater tolerance and patience are prepared to do the same?

Andrew Keatley
118 Posted 03/12/2020 at 14:35:08
Darren (96) - “I sincerely hope "he of the mythical pulling power" can find a way to leapfrog then put clear daylight between us and Dithering Dave's Happy 'ammer's, because if he doesn't, I fear there is a very real possibility that I will die of shame.”

Who are you quoting when you call Carlo Ancelotti "he of the mythical pulling power"? I am assuming you are not quoting anyone other than yourself. So are you suggesting that attracting Allan and James Rodriguez to the club – both cited at the time as considerable coups for the club – was nothing to do with Ancelotti and that they were drawn to the club for other reasons?

I know you don't like Ancelotti but I do think you should concede that, if he wasn't here, then neither of those players would be either, so I think the myth here is actually your interpretation of events.

Tom Bowers
119 Posted 03/12/2020 at 15:24:10
Spurs are top, at the moment, but the top has been changing a lot of late and will continue to do so as the results this season have been somewhat unpredictable.

Everton beat Spurs on their own patch and then Villa pasted RS somehow.
No team is home and dry even with an early 2-0 lead, just ask in form Soton.

I haven't been impressed with any team yet, even Liverpool or Man City and certainly not Spurs.

Everton are still in a decent position but on a poor run of form which obviously needs to be put right by Carlo (if he can).

We know Carlo has had a lot of success with other clubs and that's why he and some of his peers have arrived back in the Premier League (like Mourinho) and understandably because that's where the big salaries are.

The problem is that clubs face a big severance deal if they let a manager go whilst still under contract so I cannot see Carlo going anywhere just yet.

There are no easy games in the Premier League so Everton cannot look past Burnley no matter if they did get slammed by Man City.

No two games are alike but we all hope and expect Everton to rebound from the Leeds setback.

Brian Murray
120 Posted 03/12/2020 at 15:24:34
Let's hope his pulling power doesn't include another Barca reject. No wonder we have such a good relationship with them, they must love us. Umtiti next? If I didn't know better, I'd think he had said something bad about youth pace and fitness. I'm sure our Oxford moment is here any day now.
Jim Harrison
121 Posted 03/12/2020 at 15:37:42
I still struggle to understand how it is not possible to accept that Moyes did a good job on a limited budget but the club failed to invest in building on his work as being separate issues. He did well under the circumstances. Had he been given greater backing would he have done better? Who knows. But pound for pound he was one of the best managers in the country for most of his tenure.

That said, he left years ago and the club is under a new owner and the 5th full time manager since he left. His role is history.

Brian Murray
123 Posted 03/12/2020 at 15:44:50
Tom @119. Never ever say the words 'hope' and 'expect' in the same sentence as Everton because knees will be a-knocking loud at Finch Farm at the very thought. If we downplay and just shrug our shoulders, trust me, we will be at Wembley twice, win the Anfield derby, and be visiting the San Siro next season. Reverse psychology really stretching it!
Sam Hoare
124 Posted 03/12/2020 at 15:49:57
Yes. West Ham are above us. But we are still above Arsenal and Man City. But let's ignore that if it doesn't suit the agenda, shall we?

It's early days still in an exciting Premier League where it seems even more than usual that most teams can beat any other team.

We're 5 points off 1st place, which most of us would have taken after 10 games, I suspect. But equally we're 3 points off 15th.

I have issues with some of the decisions and tactics that Carlo has been using and he's not the manager I wanted. Nor was I delighted about the summer signings (we should have got another right-back at least). But if we win on Saturday then we'll go 4th for at least a time.

The insinuation that not slagging off Ancelotti equals accepting mediocrity is pure lunacy. He's here to stay, probably for the season at least, so let's see how it goes.

Personally I think we'll be sitting around 10th to 12th by New Year but I hope I'm wrong. Very few teams look that intimidating and it's quite plausible that we'll lose to Burnley but then beat Chelsea and/or Leicester.

David Cash
125 Posted 03/12/2020 at 19:00:37

You play a little fast n loose with the facts in this post, but fair play, I suspect you were looking to spark debate and you certainly did that. Take a bow.

One very small gripe. You name a fellow poster twice. I'm pretty sure you could have made your points without doing that. I'm not a fan of calling people out unless they have already posted. Like I say. A minor gripe.

This is a hugely entertaining thread. Some of the hypocrisy and faux outrage (from both sides of the house) is off the scale. In light of Jay Woods running battle with Barry where he dismisses Barry's perfectly valid point as "flawed logic, which doubled down on your silliness" I thought his outrage at other posters for being "Totally intolerant of other views" was ToffeeWeb Gold.

Darren and Conor – The unholy alliance.

I hope you two like humble pie, because when Don Carlo lands his first trophy. You'll have stored up enough to last you for years!

Darren Hind
126 Posted 03/12/2020 at 19:14:54
I could live with that. Humble pie today trumps Jam Tomorrow all day long.
Mark Murphy
127 Posted 03/12/2020 at 19:16:57
“But if we win on Saturday then we'll go 4th for at least a time.”

Aaarrrrgghhh have you learned nothing Sam??

Everytime “Everton could go #### with a win” is the case we seem to blow it! I'm beginning to think it's motivation. I hoped Carlo would provide that in spades but maybe we should have brought in Archie Knox!

Mike Gaynes
128 Posted 03/12/2020 at 19:50:19
Good 'un, David #125.
Dave Abrahams
129 Posted 03/12/2020 at 21:00:21
Mark (127), well, Archie had the reputation with that baseball bat he had. I think it must have been made out of cotton wool because no-one got any better while he was here.
Ray Said
130 Posted 03/12/2020 at 21:20:44
I think this is a sensible and realistic call for patience. The squad he has is still unbalanced and needs more work to reshape it over a couple of windows.

The most recent buys have been sensible and in the areas we needed to strengthen – apart from right-back but there were a lot of fans calling for Kenny to have a chance and he gave him that.

The fitness and application of some of the players needs to be improved but look at Allan, Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison – they seem to be fit enough to run all game so maybe its individuals to blame for lack of application and not the training?

Speaking of application my take regarding Gordon is that his last appearance was half-hearted, lack-lustre and he failed to track his runner on a few occasions and seemed to throw his hand in so I would have dropped him from the squad too.

All-in-all, we should stick with a proven winner in Ancelotti but we need to remember we hired a manager called Carlo – not a wizard called Harry.

Jay Wood

131 Posted 03/12/2020 at 21:28:09
Casho, you are a curious fellow.

By your own admission, you are a casual visitor and infrequent poster on TW.

And when you do post – as now, in this thread – it isn't actually to comment on the football issues under debate. It is almost always exclusively to deliver judgement on the posting style of contributors.

As such, as again here, you have a tendency to display poor reading and comprehension skills.

Unlike you, it seems, I welcome diverse views. I don't try to suppress them as you try to imply. I don't presume to represent anybody's viewpoint other than my own. I don't presume to be the sole possessor of the truth on all things Everton. I clearly say as much in this very thread.

Now, if I don't agree with another's view, I may be moved to challenge it. If I reply, I always give reasons supporting my alternative view. What is your issue with that?

I'm really not clear what you are suggesting. That no post or opinion should ever be challenged? Make for a very sterile and bland forum, that.

I can only giggle at your description of my brief exchanges with Barry as a ‘running battle'. And describing another of my posts as expressing ‘outrage'. All very emotive language, but not congruent with what was actually expressed.

Here's a thought. Surprise yourself and others, Casho. Try contributing to TW on footy issues rather than just playing the literary critic all the time.

Craig Walker
132 Posted 03/12/2020 at 22:29:10
It's fine margins. Earlier in the season, we got the rub of the green. We seemed to have a bit more spirit if we went a goal behind. Even against West Brom at home we had a spell where we looked vulnerable and we benefitted from the red card. We got lucky in the derby but missed chances of our own.

We then suffered because of Richarlison's sending off. The Southampton and Newcastle performances were poor. Against Leeds, we rode our luck at times but missed chances too. I didn't think we were too bad against Man Utd: we just aren't the same team without Richarlison.

Let's not overreact. We're probably an 8th placed Premier League team, or thereabouts. We're a massive work in progress and there is a lot of work for Ancelotti to do.

We were getting ahead of ourselves after the start. We're doing the same calling for Carlo's head. Let's give him 3 more windows, get rid of the players who aren't good enough, and see how some of these players perform at a packed Goodison Park.

I know patience is hard and we all desperately want some success but we are paying the price for some terrible transfer business by previous managers. There's a nucleus of good players. Ancelotti has made mistakes but he can't polish turds. Let's keep the faith.

Don Alexander
133 Posted 03/12/2020 at 23:55:29
Jay (BRZ) it's uncanny how very alike you are to Dazza when it comes to other TWer's posts. You both assume vastly wider knowledge than most, you both regularly contend your opinions to be facts, you both get right up the nose of very many TWer's (including more than a few you've never personally taken issue with) and they've forcibly told you (and him) so.

And yet you go on, unabated.

There was a time I took umbrage with you (and him) but these days, as I've previously stated, I welcome the comedy gold the two of you spout.

You two are indeed neither sterile nor bland, in much the same way as gonorrhea. Keep on coming!–

Brian Wilkinson
134 Posted 03/12/2020 at 00:05:07
Does not matter one bit, whether he stays or goes. Anyone who did come in, would still have the same duff squad players on high wages, which no other team would take on.

Duncan Ferguson ruled himself out of the job, and quite rightly: he could see what a lazy, bone-idle, 'could not give a toss' attitude from a lot of the hangers-on were, who only spring into action when we get a new manager, and then they go back to their old ways after a few months.

Nothing will change, til we get these out of the club.

No amount of managers will sort this squad out. We are looking at around 2 years, before each and every one of those are finally out of the door. Only then will we see a huge change.

So Carlo needs to stay in my eyes, but he needs to put trust in the youngsters, and stop playing players out of position.

Andy Crooks
135 Posted 03/12/2020 at 00:10:45
What a wonderful thread. Just sat down with a brandy, I know it is uncouth, and a fig roll. See all the big hitters are taking part and just enjoy. This is why it is the best site.

Vijay Nair
136 Posted 04/12/2020 at 00:50:10
Brian (120), I'd take Umtiti over Yerry Mina any day of the week...
Brian Murray
137 Posted 04/12/2020 at 04:34:24
Vijay. It's all just surely lazy journalism. We have pace at the back in Holgate and apparently Branthwaite so, unless he can double up as the winger we crave for, we have more pressing matters.
David Cash
138 Posted 04/12/2020 at 07:28:13

The primary reason for my post was to congratulate the guy who penned the OP. I thought he set out to create debate and I think he pitched it perfectly.

What I would not do, is what you falsely and rather foolishly attempt to accuse me of. I simply wouldn't be arsed posting if I was not going to give an opinion.

On a thread devoted entirely to debating the merits and failures of our manager. I am one of the few, maybe the only poster, who predicts he will win silverware for us. I will be disappointed if my prediction doesn't come true, but I won't be ashamed. I've been wrong before and I will be again. Unfortunately I don't have a crystal ball. So the prediction is all I can offer. Some may dismiss it as merely a belief. I wouldn't argue with that, but it is, most definitely an opinion.

I mentioned your post because it quite literally made me laugh out loud. We are all a little guilty of hypocrisy from time to time but most of us will swiftly move on when it's pointed out. However, there will always be hypocrites who will not recognise what everyone else sees in them. That's when it becomes comical.

My apologies for pointing out the stark differences between what you practice and what you preach. I was kinda hoping you may see the funny side.

Conor McCourt
139 Posted 04/12/2020 at 10:25:27
David, can I start by having a good dollop of humble pie against Burnley and then please it coming after that like a fucking avalanche.
Harry Williams
140 Posted 04/12/2020 at 12:10:09
Wow, here we go again.. Ancelotti is not a miracle worker, zero!! If you remember this time last year we were fighting a relegation battle; right now, we are 2 points off a Champions League position and in a quarter-final... so this is not progression?!

Ancelotti has bought around four players for approx £6M, peanuts if you ask me.

Give the man a chance, come on lads let's be loyal and let's support our manager and the players, get behind the team!!


Ian Horan
141 Posted 04/12/2020 at 13:34:39
HW @140, and from the darkness came light!!!!

H, absolutely spot on!!!

Jay Wood

142 Posted 04/12/2020 at 13:48:19
David @ 138, I did see the funny side of your original post. I said as much. It made me ‘giggle', but perhaps not in the way you intended.

Your latest post just makes me sigh, dripping as it does with conceit and deceit.

Conceit in that you believe in stating a claim (namely, that I have displayed ‘hypocrisy' on this thread) is enough to make it true. It isn't. It hasn't. You present zero evidence to support your claim. And you can't because based on what I've actually written there is no evidence to draw on.

Deceit because whilst your observation that there is ‘hypocrisy and faux outrage' in this thread is correct, it ain't coming from me. Yet you target me who hasn't expressed those views and ignore others who most certainly have.

You carry on, David, with your selective Mary Whitehouse ‘tut-tutting' on individual posting styles rather than engaging with actual content. Meanwhile, the wait goes on for you to contribute and add to the actual football discussions under debate.

Darren Hind
143 Posted 05/12/2020 at 07:10:14

You will never need an invitation to come to our house whenever you are back in Liverpool, but It would be wonderful to get Conor over for a barbie the day after the FA cup final. While the rest of you enjoy your lamb steaks and burgers. Me and him will gorge on copious amounts of humble pie. We'll even take a doggie bag onto Scottie and eat it as the boys come past with the cup - I'm told its quite nice washed down with a decent SA pinotage.

BTW. You are wasting your time with our Brazlian correspondent. He'll be the only one who doesnt realise that he is doing the very thing he is accusing you of - Four posts on this tread alone without even mentioning the subject being discussed.

"Hypocrite" ? Perish the thought

Dave Abrahams
144 Posted 07/12/2020 at 09:30:56
Craig (132), a pretty balanced post, asking for patience, fair enough, though I think a good majority of Everton fans have proved how patient we are. I personally don’t want Carlo sacked but I think I,we, have the right to point out were we think he is going wrong. Finally I know he can’t polish turds, but he does have that bad habit of constantly playing them!!!
Jonathan Tasker
147 Posted 07/12/2020 at 11:41:24
As soon as he was appointed, I called him the Italian Walter Smith.

Each recent match further proves my point.

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