Just like the girl in Dr No... no, no

by   |   25/05/2021  148 Comments  [Jump to last]

Carlo Ancelotti being totally humiliated by Pep Guardiola made for a very uncomfortable watch. I felt like I was watching a rerun of the Larry Holmes v Mohammed Ali fight. A great man and champion was being battered into submission by the new Champion.

Like Ali, Carlo once had all the tools and players required to take him to the top of his profession, but it is Pep who carries all the guns now. All that remained was for Pep to turn to the referee, just as Holmes had done, and plead with him to put a stop to it.

The superstars are no longer around to assist Carlo. He has to reinvent himself and succeed with lesser lights... He can't and won't do it.

I often see people posting on this and other forums about "The Haters" – I wonder what (if anything) goes through the minds of people who use this sort of rhetoric? I think it says more about them than anybody else.

I don't think it's possible to hate Carlo Ancelotti. He is a champion. A charming man who always carries himself with dignity... However, a growing number are starting to hate the fact that this old warrior is manager of our club. I don't feel lucky at all that he is Everton manager. I feel nothing but frustration and sadness.

He`s finished as a top manager; he has been finished for some time. His ideas and his tactics belong to a bygone era. The Bayern Munich players knew it when they went to the club's hierarchy to have him ousted... and I suspect the entire Everton squad know it by now too. How else can we explain the total lack of conviction in their play? They may have been delighted when he arrived, but they clearly don't believe in him anymore.

We all reach the top of our particular mountain at some stage of our lives. Carlo has reached his and has long since been on the way down. He has cost us this season. He simply couldn't seize the moment. I cringe when I hear people ask whether any of our players would get into the Top 4 teams. It's an utterly pointless question considering we just finished outside the Top 9. To finish 10th with this group of players is very poor indeed. The season has been an unmitigated disaster.

Yeah, we've had a few highs. We've thrown a few monkeys off our back, but the opposition didn't half help by being in such awful form themselves. I'd like a team who could beat them when they were firing on all cylinders. Overall, our season was a nightmare. Even when we won, we generally won by spoiling the game.

Carlo's claim that we could not open up and play, even against inferior opposition, was total bollocks. An insult to the intelligence of any football fan. "I`m not magician" ... What was all that about? You need to be a magician to play a bit of footy against Burnley, Brighton, Sheffield United? That's not what this great club is all about.

It's always difficult for sportsmen and celebrities to know when to bow out. If somebody is still prepared to pay them, it's even more difficult for them not to stick around. I'm reminded of those cringe-worthy fights over in The States where you see two fat arl boxers stumble around the ring hoping they have "just one more" in them.

I remember watching a Bond movie as a youngster with a permanent hard-on. When Ursula Andress stepped out of the sea in that white bikini, I thought I was going to have a heart attack. Years later, I read she turned down a lucrative glamour role because she wanted to be remembered as this goddess. She is.

Joe Calzaghie knew it; AP McCoy knew it; Sir Alex Ferguson knew it. They all retired without tarnishing their reputations. The time comes when this champion has to accept he has reached the top of his particular mountain and the only way is down.

Take the knock, Carlo, lad. Go now. The longer your stay, the messier it's going to get.

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Peter Moore
2 Posted 25/05/2021 at 09:35:08
It's a strange one I think. The outclassing we suffered at the hands of the Champions rubs salt into the wounds already festering after home defeats to bottom side Sheffield United etc. The conditions we had were very similar for all teams: Covid restrictions, no fans etc. But, with better players signed in the summer and fans back in the stadium, there is reason to think things can be a lot better next season I think.

Man City are much further down the track to success than us, to state the bleeding obvious. It was a very disappointing season though, but it seems very likely Mr Ancelotti will be given the chance to lead us into and through next season. Better we are behind him and the team in a raucous Goodison Park, to give him best chance of success, I think.

They started the season brightly but faded badly; with better players and fans in the ground, there is a chance they could keep the momentum going, as they must if we are to awake from the perennial slumber.

Tony Everan
3 Posted 25/05/2021 at 10:23:51
Darren, there's going to be no argument about the fact that the football has been appalling. Dire. Mind-numbing and a feast of unparalleled boringness. No joke: I have yawned and glazed over for most of our matches.

Also,10th is unacceptable. Selections have often been disappointing, partially mitigated by our poor alternatives; substitutions have been inert, ineffective, threatless, and frankly sometimes baffling.

What's his lad Davide doing at Finch Farm with regards training methods? We don't play as a team, we can't pass to each other, we look like a bunch of lads who belong 200 metres south, playing in Stanley Park.

How critical can he be of his boy? How likely will he be to address problems there? Would he rather throw himself and Everton under a bus than create family divisions? The buck stops with the manager and it's a glaring failure of Ancelotti's judgement.

So why oh why am I coming to the conclusion to keep the faith and give Carlo Ancelotti more time?

The club has been in all sorts of turmoil for a good few years: Martinez, Koeman, Silva, Allardyce, mid-season changes when flirting with relegation. This instability was destroying us. Ancelotti has had us top half all season; safe, stable and secure. It's a base to build from.

These last few months, Ancelotti has been treading water because conclusions have already been reached. At least four or five first-team regulars are not good enough – even when playing at 100% of their capacity.

I want big changes in the playing personnel. We need four or five younger hungrier quality players. (We all know the positions.)

I want big changes at Finch Farm, I want better and more productive training methods. Davide and Duncan are not professional or experienced enough to drill the players and foster that teamwork ethic that is crucial. Ancelotti has to be totally ruthless here, he is to blame for this continuing failure. If he makes these changes, we'll see the improvements.

If he signs ageing, slow, ex-Galacticos on big contracts, and allows the same failing regimen at Finch Farm to continue ,he'll be forced out by the fans by October.

Darren and others, an appeal: hold fire whilst we await these positive changes.


Brent Stephens
4 Posted 25/05/2021 at 10:28:08
Nothing new here. Move on.
Mick O'Malley
6 Posted 25/05/2021 at 10:32:08
Not the old boring “who would you replace him with” line again.

It's not the fans' job to pick the manager but we can call out the present incumbent if he is not doing his job. We have thrown away a European place and watched some of the most boring football I've watched for many a year.

Carlo is a nice man, he represents Everton brilliantly, but his football is from yesteryear and it's sad to watch him being tactically outmanoeuvred by so-called lesser lights.

Ken Kneale
7 Posted 25/05/2021 at 10:45:48
Tony, I am with you... but only just.

This does seem like a season of lost opportunity and there is overwhelming evidence Carlo has been complacent with the necessary changes at all levels... but, just about, the reputational damage that further managerial change will bring on the club after the horror show of Martinez, Koeman, Allardyce and Silva in a short time sways me.

Carlo really needs to have a busy summer and shake the tree very very hard indeed. If he does so, and the fans see that his presence is potentially beneficial to removing the anchors that hold this club back, he will gain support. If he cannot fulfil that requirement, as you suggest, he will be gone by autumn.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
8 Posted 25/05/2021 at 10:49:02
Yea, Thomas @1, any chance you could hold off with your piercingly original and penetrating one-line questions? I'm just about fed up with them, for the reasons stated above. At this point, the only person they are embarrassing is you.
Brian Harrison
9 Posted 25/05/2021 at 10:51:23
I watched a clip of Chris Sutton and Micah Richards who were on some programme together, and Sutton described Everton as being like a Ford Capri – it looks good... till you look at the top-of-the-range models. Every so often, they respray it to try and bring it up to date and it works for a while but quickly fades.

So, whether Carlo is the answer or we try someone else, this club hasn't been going anywhere for practically 30 years. Giving Ancelotti another year in the great scheme of things is nothing, so what have we got to lose?

We have had 5 full-time managers in 7 years and they have all failed, and none can moan about a lack of investment. Moshiri has pumped in nearly half a billion to take us backwards, that takes some doing – even by Everton standards.

The way things are going, we will be like Sunderland playing in a stadium that is the envy of every club that we play each week in the Championship... and they have slipped back to League 1 now. Still, let's remember Man City played in the third tier not too long ago... now, they are perennial winners of the Premier League.

Dave Abrahams
10 Posted 25/05/2021 at 11:00:37
Brent (@4), “Nothing new here, move on.”

The question is: Who do we move on with? Darren is saying Carlo is past his best and gives the reasons why he thinks that. Tony (3), says Carlo is giving too much trust in coaches who are not capable on the training ground and admits the squad is not good enough but asks for Carlo to be given time while he makes positive changes to improve the team and puts his own coaching ideas into play.

I said on a post yesterday we looked like a bum fighting a World Champion, to use a boxing term, in the game against Man City. I don't think there were any redeeming features in that performance by the players, and certainly not the manager, who has turned us in to any of many performances during the season, most notably at Goodison Park.

I've watched and waited all season for some real action from Carlo to stir this team into consistent action and a plan – however dour and miserable to watch – that works. Well he did, away from home, that mostly was to defend deep and snatch a goal on the break, and it worked as far as results were concerned, but amazingly he didn't stick to that plan at home.

Quoting and agreeing with Tony Abrahams take on that score: Why did he change the plan, at the very least some of those dire defeats could have been 0-0 draws, which would have put Carlo's European dream into place and made most Everton fans happy.

Where do we go from here? I'm more with Tony @(3) and will wait a while but any confidence I had in Carlo has wilted a lot over the last few months and I can understand Darren's point of view perfectly.

Barry Hesketh
11 Posted 25/05/2021 at 11:06:14
There are many ways to skin a cat, but unfortunately for the last few years, Everton has largely stuck to the same formula.

There have been different players taking up the roles in the team, and most of those players have had nothing to offer that was much different to whom they replaced.

But for a couple of brief periods during any given season, the football on view has been mostly rigid and formulaic with no sign of freedom of expression which has led to the media labelling the current squad as the "Unwatchables" particularly at Goodison.

If we concede that no amount of money spent on wages and transfers will bridge the gap on the richest clubs at least in the short-term and that only the most catastrophic run of results in a season would result in Everton being relegated, is it not fair to expect a style of football that is easier on the eye? and who knows the style might even help to create a happier camp with the players enjoying themselves out on the pitch, which might lead to bigger and better things.

If Everton are unable to win enough points - a number which is getting lower, around a dozen wins would suffice, to stay in the division by playing in a more expansive and expressive way, then perhaps it's time for Evertonians to readjust their ambitions and accept that 10th is the new 7th and that Champions League qualification is as far away today as it ever was, given that Everton was the last club in 2004, to break into the gang of six's monopoly of the top four, with the notable exception of Leicester City.

Everton need more quality and they need more width, if we can't be succesful using the current methods, I'd like it to be more fun when we all return to Goodison and not a chore.

Mark Murphy
12 Posted 25/05/2021 at 11:07:20
Harsh Michael - it's a pertinent question.
I'm a Carlo "happy clapper" but I'm also beginning to worry that he isn't really what we need. I've been racking my brains trying to think of someone who could do a job but still break that glass ceiling.
I get that maybe Thomas is trying to undermine or sidestep Darrens argument (much of which I agree with btw) but it IS a relevent question and perhaps one that does need considering.
Jon Harding
13 Posted 25/05/2021 at 11:10:40
Thomas @ 1 - perfectly reasonable question

It's not fans' jobs to appoint managers but nor is it our job to sack them, negotiate their contracts and agree transfer targets

We just get to come on here for free and sound off

Who in life makes a major decision without planning for the next move? I sold my house today. Where am I moving to? Dunno

Brent Stephens
14 Posted 25/05/2021 at 11:17:00
Dave #10 "Brent...The question is: Who do we move on with? Darren is saying Carlo is past his best and gives the reasons why he thinks that."

Exactly, Dave! Let's ask Darren who he thinks we should move on with! Who he thinks we should appoint instead of Carlo!

Actually, he's been asked that question over and over and the silence is deafening.

And I don't accept the argument (not yours, Dave, I acknowledge) that you don't need to say who his replacement should be. Somebody saying that we can do better than Carlo is in effect say that they know somebody who is better, as it's in effect a comparison. So who are they comparing with? Who would Darren appoint?

I doubt we'll hear him give an answer to that.

Tony Abrahams
15 Posted 25/05/2021 at 11:17:34
When I watched Everton start the season playing joined up football, I remember thinking that I didn't want to burst one younger supporter's bubble the way he was talking about us the day before the first Merseyside Derby at Goodison this season.

I thought Liverpool schooled us that day, but I was delighted with Everton because of the way they stayed in the game, which eventually led to us equalising.

I then watched us go backwards, especially at Newcastle, with what I'd describe as a very awkward system, with a shape that lacked creativity.

We got injuries, then we played with four central defenders across the back four, and this seemed to suit us because these players were only there to defend.

It gave us our best spell since the start of the season. Four defenders staying back, five across the midfield, and Calvert-Lewin leading the line.

We then got more injuries, and couldn't sustain anything, especially once our fullbacks had recovered and we changed to a more open system.

I've been baffled by some of our formations, but only at Goodison Park, so I'm prepared to give a truthful manager more time.

It's correct that he his not a magician; even if he had gained a few more points and got us into the top six, I would still be of the opinion that too many of our current squad are good enough to really take us forward, and this is something I've felt for years.

Dave Abrahams
16 Posted 25/05/2021 at 11:23:18
Brent (14), Fair enough, I’ll rephrase my question: should we stick with Carlo Ancelotti as our manager, if so why?
Mike Allison
17 Posted 25/05/2021 at 11:25:32
If we'd have beaten Sheff United, Burnley and Fulham at home, we'd be in the Champions League.

Much of this season has been shite, but I'm not convinced that ripping things up and starting again (again!) is the way forward. At some point, we're going to need to hold our nerve and stick with something through the difficult times, Ancelotti is probably the best man to do that with.

I always look at whether a manager seems to learn from mistakes or failures. Moyes did; Martinez didn't; Silva didn't; Ancelotti is in uncharted territory, so I'm not sure, but my default position is to try to use stability and continuity as a strength, because we've seen it work before, and we've seen where the opposite gets us.

Derek Thomas
18 Posted 25/05/2021 at 11:40:05
Hopefully, with plenty of fans back...because lack of fans has been a heat shield for Chairman and Manager both...another season like this one and all the stick, twist or agnostic (...but waivering - me) opinions may be moot.

This of course all hinges on...
a) The amount of patience Mr Moshiri has.
b) It all not going even crapper, sooner.

Tony Abrahams
19 Posted 25/05/2021 at 11:41:13
If I was Brent, Dave, I'd say yes and because I want to see how we play when he's got a few more players of his own players in.

Maybe Ancellotti, is exactly what we need? Maybe he hasn't played Josh King, because he was only brought into the club as an insurance policy in case both Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison both got injured, and Ancellotti, didn't even want him?

Maybe Ancellotti has already spoken behind the scenes, telling everyone that, if we want to really improve, we need much better players to come into the football club, and hopefully Moshiri and Brands listen.

I personally think Silva might have still been at Everton if he had been backed with better players, especially after losing two of his better ones. (But that's just another opinion, which probably should be ignored, unless acknowledging that football is mainly about players.)

Brent Stephens
20 Posted 25/05/2021 at 11:50:01
Dave #16. I'm disappointed with the way this season has panned out and ended. So many good results, so many poor results.

I don't think Carlo is blameless. (I don't know of anybody who does think that.) It's just that I see too many in the squad who aren't up to consistently good performances. (In addition to those already shipped out, watch the number we now try to ship out.)

Also, our new signings have had too many medium-term injuries; I think a manager needs to be given more than a season and a half and I can't see who we'd replace him with. Open to suggestions!

On a positive note though, Dave, maybe, just maybe there are a few of the U18s who've broken into in the U23s this season who will eventually step up to the first team. I know you watch a lot of the U23s – Small? Whitaker? Hunt? Hughes?

Barry Rathbone
21 Posted 25/05/2021 at 12:15:18
I admit to knowing little about Ancelotti before he came; a vague knowledge of his MO of working with elite players at elite clubs, winning elite competitions, was about it.

Coming here seemed the ultimate fish-out-of-water scenario... and so it's proved. I desperately wanted it to work but it hasn't and now accompanying pics of him on the reports show a lonely, broken man.

Moshiri won't sack him just yet but he is finished here. He was effectively once the manager of the Ritz was brought here to run a B&B in Seaforth and given a 10-ft conservatory on the back to attract the same high level of clientele. Slightly mad really.

We still need a charismatic manager with fire in his belly and inspiration in his gift – a young Mourinho – but where? I checked Bromyard and he's not there – dunno what to next, tbh.

Danny O’Neill
22 Posted 25/05/2021 at 12:15:46
Good post, Darren, and fair comment.

Ancelotti is past his best, no dispute there. 10th place was a massively disappointing finish given the opportunity we had throughout the season that we repeatedly failed to capitalise on.

You make a good point about him being good when he had the tools; in other words, the players. Pep does now have the tools; the players. Pep couldn't turn this lot into champions, he'd bring in better players.

We need more significant change in the playing staff; otherwise, we'll just keep blaming and changing managers whilst the players get a free ride and pay cheque.

Ultimately, Carlo carries the can for our limp end-of-season return. He's the manager. He picks the team, he gives the instruction. We played some strange formations with some dubious line-ups. But, with better tools / players available, he gets at least another season from me as he (or any other manager) doesn't have to sit there wondering how the hell he's going to get a tune out of a thin and disjointed squad on a consistent basis.

Andrew Ellams
23 Posted 25/05/2021 at 12:46:44
Mike @ 17,

If we hadn't lost to 3 out of the final bottom 4 at home, things would have been better.

That's sort of Darren's point I think.

Thomas Richards
24 Posted 25/05/2021 at 12:49:30
From The Everton End:

Everton's total of 59 pts this season is the highest 10th place tally in Premier League history, 59pts on average would ensure a 5th-7th European finish in the Premier League.

Everton finished 4th in 2006 with 61 pts, just 59 pts was enough that year for UCL qualification.

Brian Harrison
25 Posted 25/05/2021 at 13:05:07
Darren,

Your post 493 on the Cannon Fodder thread, you said anybody pedalling the line that the same players had got previous managers sacked, as "Same players, my arse".

Our line-up against Liverpool before Silva was sacked was: Pickford, Sidibé, Holgate, Keane, Mina, Digne, Iwobi, Davies, Sigurdsson, Richarlison, Calvert-Lewin.

So 8 that started against Liverpool finished the game against Man City. Surely they are as guilty as the managers they have played for?

Barry Hesketh
26 Posted 25/05/2021 at 13:14:23
Everton's record this season is almost identical to David Moyes' first full season in 2002-03 same number of wins, losses, and draws but scored one more goal and conceded one more than this season. It was such a good season that the club reacted by entitling the end-of-season DVD review as "The Magnificent Seventh!"

We have to hope that next season doesn't replicate David Moyes's second full season where we ended up 4th from bottom above relegated Leicester City, Wolves, and Leeds. We've come a long way since the release of that DVD... on second thoughts, despite the huge outlay, we probably haven't.


David Pearl
27 Posted 25/05/2021 at 13:26:37
We have no option but to stick with our manager, on the off chance that he can attract the players we need to kick on.

I am in a position to help him out. I've put myself on a list to be fostered and with any luck Carlo will foster me and give me a job on the background staff.

Then l will be in prime positition to say,

"Hey Papà, you can't be playing Siggy as a left winger – he hasn't got the legs and can't influence the game chasing backwards to help Digne and our low block against Sheff Utd."

"Hey Papà, please don't play Doucouré as a right-winger, you fucking tit... are you having a laugh, you knobhead?!"

Danny O’Neill
28 Posted 25/05/2021 at 13:28:30
On less than 40 points, Barry.
Peter Warren
29 Posted 25/05/2021 at 13:40:59
Like Carlo, I don't believe he's left behind on methods – just that he has a different way than instant revolution. I can't disagree: the football for most of the season has been poor to watch. The points tally I suppose is not too bad but I would be disappointed if we had won 2 more games at home and got into Europe.

I'm an optimist and hope we get better players in and Carlo gets more out of the players. I believe it takes time, particularly with the way Carlo manages. I understand the question but I don't think Carlo is clueless, unlike many of his predecessors, and his record is that he is a winner almost everywhere he's been, so I'm sure we will keep with him.

If we improve by another 10 points next season and get 69, that would be good and I can't see how we can get that playing the way we do, so I'm optimistic for better players and football.

Brian Murray
30 Posted 25/05/2021 at 13:59:59
Any glowing past CV for a player or manager means absolute Jack Shit to most of us. It's what they do here that counts.

Having said that, it's better that we have a winner for a change. Same with the dubious fast-tracked coaches and CEO, to be honest. The easy Everton route... but that's another story.

Brian Williams
31 Posted 25/05/2021 at 14:11:17
I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask the one line question "Who would you replace him with?"

If people "constantly" castigate the present manager and openly say they don't want him here and pick apart his performance without offering an alternative, is that not just a case of having a go for having a go's sake? It becomes pretty clear what's thought about him from some after their tenth very similar post.

Don't get me wrong: Ancelotti's not been as good as he should have been but what's the point of pointing that out time and time and time again if you're not going to go that little bit further and say "I feel we should be looking at so and so" or something of that ilk?

There's no point, IMO, in continually pointing out the problem if you're not prepared to suggest a possible solution. Because, without that, it is just a case of making the same point over and over again.

It's very easy to sit back and point out people's faults and weaknesses and say how bad they are at their job but, if you don't want him, who do you want?

Rob Halligan
32 Posted 25/05/2021 at 14:20:09
Keep asking away, Thomas # 1. You are asking a reasonable question, you are not insulting anyone, nor are you bringing anyone's insanity into question or disputing they have no father!!

Keep asking away until we get a better answer than Sean Dyche, Graham Potter or some bloke called Steve Cooper from Swansea.

Ian Horan
33 Posted 25/05/2021 at 14:23:33
The view on Ancelotti, in my opinion, is this Ancelotti has got us the most points away from home since season 84-85, yet he gets lambasted on here for his home form!!! Liverpool lost 6 consecutive games at home for the first time in their history. Man Utd got beat at home by the worst team in Premier League history.

I offer a different view from the OP as I believe all information should be considered based on data we are 2 places higher, 10 points better off than last season. Over the past decade, we have only bettered 59 points 4 times. So, from data-based view, it is clearly an improvement, yet the quality of the football has been shocking.

The cautious approach away worked well with all players contributing. Apart from the home losses, the injuries and move to a more expansive style left us open. As CA highlighted, Everton didn't have the quality of players to go toe to toe with teams.

I would also suggest that the condensed periods of games impacted on our squad... Given the circumstances, I believe Carlo deserves a normal season to improve our home form with supporters in attendance. Also, our away form will drop off next season as other teams benefit from their supporters being in attendance.

I am as disappointed as anyone the way the season petered out... I believe Moshiri sees Ancelotti as his insurance policy, keeping us in the Premier League until the new stadium is built. Carlo will see out his contract; Europe will be a bonus but not essential to Moshiri's plans.

Danny O’Neill
34 Posted 25/05/2021 at 14:31:02
Quality of players Ian Horan.

That is a key statement.

Improve the quality of players across the squad. Not blame the manager for trying to manage a mainly mediocre bunch that those before him assembled and couldn't either.

Yes, successful managers get credit for their success. But ultimately it's the players on the pitch that win and lose matches.

Good managers bring in good players. Ancelotti has had one turn of the wheel so far. Even Kendall got 2½ years before the leaflets came out.

Michael Kenrick
35 Posted 25/05/2021 at 14:53:08
No Brian, it's just meaningless blather. It's not a choice that the fans make. It's a choice that is only made by the power brokers within Everton FC.

And no, it is definitely not a case having a go for having a go's sake. The one thing we can do is assess, analyze and respond to what the manager does, how well his team appears to be set up, what results they get, etc. That's something fans can respond to with incredible validity because it is about how their club performs on the field, week-in & week-out.

But the decision to change the manager, and who the replacement might be, is not something the supporters can effectively contribute to. There is absolutely no point in going "that little bit further" because that part means absolutely nothing.

Maybe the option is that the manager will improve? Foolishly, I always believed that of The Ginger Twat... At least he taught me something. I have since had to accept that these guys are so far up their own arses, they won't change once they have set out their stalls.

But suggesting who might replace Ancelotti is (a) dependent on him actually stepping down or being sacked – very unlikely; and (b) a choice that is entirely in the hands of the club. And therefore a total waste of time and effort speculating about. Especially when any name proffered is totally and utterly without meaning or merit.

Danny O’Neill
37 Posted 25/05/2021 at 15:03:03
We need better players regardless of who the manager is. Most of the players aren't good enough for where we want to be.

Get what you mean about Moyes, Michael. I too thought he was going to do it. Especially around 2009, but then quickly the realisation kicked in.

It's down to the players mostly.

Rob Halligan
40 Posted 25/05/2021 at 15:13:33
Danny, I agree with you. A lot of our players aren't up to the standard required, but unfortunately us, and Carlo, we are stuck with them. I've spent all season bar one game, screaming at the tv calling so-and-so a useless so-and-so.

Carlo can only work with the tools he was given 18 months ago. It's not as easy as many seem to think, shifting the deadwood, but slowly we are getting rid, and hopefully they will be replaced with better quality this summer.

Love him or loathe him, I think Carlo will be here until at least the end of his current contract.

Thomas Richards
43 Posted 25/05/2021 at 15:20:04
Rob,

I took no notice of your suggestion.
I posted off my own back.
Free the Hallgan One

Thomas Richards
44 Posted 25/05/2021 at 15:21:20
*HALLIGAN
Alan J Thompson
45 Posted 25/05/2021 at 15:30:42
In keeping with the title of the piece, what sort of Manager do we want?

Arsula Undress, looks good but all wet with barely more than the Emperor's new clothes or the vicious old hand with a kick like a flick knife?
Or Haille Berry in ice water, who did her Mam support and would it be cause for disqualification? And what was the name of the Russian with love who had a whole new approach to training.
Maybe Shirley Eaton who some might compare to our majority shareholder, all gold but little action. Or in the same vein, a bit like the "Big 6", Honor Blackman/Pussy Galore, all that gold that nobody else was to get their hands on. Or the other one also somewhat fittingly an "Avenger", a marriage that everyone wanted but didn't last long. Or Miss Moneypenny or would that confuse the Chairman?

No, for me, sail into BM Dock with the Admiral, "M" - Marco, the one to disappoint the over the park 007 from the Wirral.

Brian Williams
46 Posted 25/05/2021 at 15:36:57
Michael #35.

Points taken, but isn't anything we say or post on here meaningless blather with regard to improvements because nothing we post on here has any effect other than to get things off our chests?

What I, and many others, would sometimes like to read is other posters suggestions for who could improve us rather than "Carlo's shit, he's a dinosaur, coward" because to me that is meaningless blather also.

Nuno for instance? About to, or has just, left Wolves. Would anyone fancy him as our next manager?

Whether we want him or not has not a jot of difference because, as you say, we have no input, but it may make a welcome change to discuss instead of what I'm sure many will agree has become a tedious point- scoring, childish, back and forth which has turned a fair few away from posting.

Dave Abrahams
47 Posted 25/05/2021 at 15:43:20
I wonder which club, if any, has got Nuno Espírito Santo lined up? If Carlo walked out on his contract, Nuno's free, so that would be a new start and cost nothing. Is Nuno the answer?

He stalled a bit after 3 good years. How confident can anyone be that Carlo still has got it in him to revive his fortunes and Everton's, or has Nuno already shot his bolt?

Thomas Richards
48 Posted 25/05/2021 at 15:48:41
Well said Brian.

I was only asking for opinions then it all went a touch too deep. A tad serious given the harmless question I asked.

I like Scott Parker, I can't see Carlo going anywhere for a couple of years at least. I'll be interested in Parker's development in that period.

Nick Page
49 Posted 25/05/2021 at 15:53:03
Doesn’t matter, Dave, until you get rid of all the other deadwood managing the club. You could bring in Beckenbauer, Sacchi and Guardiola and we’d still be absolutely shite. It’s not about the manager, it’s the philosophy which is dreadfully wrong.
Michael Kenrick
50 Posted 25/05/2021 at 16:05:54
Tony A,

I know you have trouble with the written word, so I fully understand if you have missed out a vital one... but please read this carefully:

"I would still be of the opinion that too many of our current squad are good enough to really take us forward, and this is something I’ve felt for years."

Recognize it? That's what you said way back at #15... but I don't think it's quite what you meant... is it? If not, I can fix it. We have the technology.

Kieran Kinsella
51 Posted 25/05/2021 at 16:06:25
Rob & Danny,

On the deadwood front, there was an interesting controversy back in 2012 when Ian Holloway was at Blackpool. It emerged that his compensation was tied to player sales. He generated a profit and earned his bonus but then the powers-that-be swooped in and equated it with the old Brian Clough brown paper bags at the motorway rest stops.

Obviously, such an arrangement has scope for abuse, eg, manager just sells off all the good players, makes a packet, and the team goes to pot. But at the same time, it incentivizes him to carefully manage his budget, both in terms of selling but also buying, when he is forced to consider how an expensive signing may impact him later down the line if the player is poor and loses value (ie, half our squad).

I would think it would be fairly easy to keep managers and Directors of Football on the straight and narrow if pay was tied to both on-field performance and managing the cash. For example, you target 7th place; if you get that, you're entitled to your bonus from wheeling and dealing. If you sell all the players and replace them with cheap crap, you don't get a penny of that bonus if the team fails to reach its target.

I just think right now it is and has been too easy for our various managers, chairman, DOF to twist the arm of Moshiri and pay whatever it takes to get whoever is the flavor of the month... and to hell with the consequences.

Dave Abrahams
53 Posted 25/05/2021 at 16:13:00
Nick (49), yes the boardroom needs younger vibrant experienced people with football knowledge to liven this, last century thinking, club up.
Rob Halligan
54 Posted 25/05/2021 at 16:19:44
Bobby Martinez will be available soon, once Belgium finish at the Euros. Bring him back and let him replicate his first season with us!

Joking aside, apparently he’s talking to Spurs about their managerial vacancy.

Actually, Is it a joke? He seems to have done quite well with Belgium and he could bring Lukaku back, along with De Bruyne, Eden Hazard and one or two other quality players who are Belgian.

Ok, maybe it is a joke! Or is it? 🤔🤔🤔

Dave Abrahams
55 Posted 25/05/2021 at 16:21:32
Michael (50), Ah come on Michael, just put “not” in the sentance, it’s that bleedin’ wordchecker you employ you should be having a go at!!
Eddie Dunn
56 Posted 25/05/2021 at 16:24:20
Tony A, I will be amazed if carlo is still here at the end of his current contract. All the signs are, that he will not get the money required to bring in enough quality players and as he seems against blooding many of our youngsters I think we will suffer a similar fate next term.
He is a likable guy, just like Martinez. However once things start to slide and the football fare served turns to turgid shit like it did this season, then even the most optimistic fan will get the hump.
The club will need to save the pennies to fund the stadium. We have a few years of this ahead and the big name Ancelotti has won't be enough to stop the board dismissing him if he fails to sneak us into the 7th spot that he and they crave.
Kevin Molloy
57 Posted 25/05/2021 at 16:28:11
there are a few people saying Carlo is going to be safe here whatever happens. I'm not so sure. After a full season, we seem to have regressed to a position where the only way we can get points on the board is by ten men behind the ball and hope to nick one. All other permutations have so far proven unsuccessful for 'the magician'.
Well, we were able to drag our sorry carcass across the line this year with that backs against the wall stuff. but if the players can't pass to each other when we return to Goodison in August, then Carlo's tenure will rapidly come unstuck, regardless of the away results. The fans simply will not put up with the tripe we've watched this year. To add to the good feeling, unlike our rivals we are no great shakes in the transfer market. Carlo last year made Marcel look like a forward thinker. And Marcel is not to be compared with Leicester or the Moyesiah in signing players.
We've got it all to do with a bunch of disillusioned sulky players locked into golden contracts that stretch out for the next few years. At least the Big Fella is unshackled and free now that West Brom are down, by Ocotber we may need to start 'reaching out' again.
Jay Harris
58 Posted 25/05/2021 at 16:30:51
Nick,
I was just about to make the same point.

If Carlo is past his sell by date what about Brands, Kenwright, Moshiri and DBB shouldnt even be in the conversation.

Everton have been less than mediocre for over 30 years while other clubs have taken advantage of the huge income boost from the Premier league.

How much did we waste on Kenwrights cronies with record rates of interest payments, Lawnmowers for FF ? and all while they made significant gains on their shareholding.

Carlo has made mistakes, FFS all managers make mistakes, particularly in some baffling team selections but we don't know whether he was testing the players and forming an opinion on who would make it and who wouldnt from a squad largely created by his predecessors and the board..

Despite the depressing end to the season where we ended up just behind Spurs and Arsenal who IMO have significantly better squads but who we have competed well with and won at Anfield for the first time in forever.

So personally speaking I have seen green shoots and do not accept for one moment that Carlo is over the hill.

I believe he has taken over a bigger challenge than he anticipated especially in the boardroom but I believe he has the strength of character to prevail and is principled enough to see it through where the likes of Koeman sought refuge in golfing holidays as his riposte to Kenwrights interference and poor recruitment in not replacing Lukaku.

It will take longer than anticipated to get us out of the mediocracy that runs through the club at every level and the competition gets harder every season but with unity and sense of purpose we can do it but it will require patience and support instead of crying in the sour milk all the time.

Mike Allison
59 Posted 25/05/2021 at 16:32:29
Andrew, 23 - it means 35/38 games would have been part of a pretty acceptable season overall. Only 3 results all season needed to change. That’s small margins and a clear area for improvement under the current manager. Therefore I advocate that ripping it all up and starting again is more likely to send us backwards than forwards and that we should stick with Ancelotti and back him to improve the team.

After all, we’re 92% of the way to a Champions League place now; I’d rather find the other 8% than go back to the beginning.

Tony Abrahams
60 Posted 25/05/2021 at 16:52:30
Leave it Michael, I’ve decided I’m sitting on the fence from now on mate👍
Michael Kenrick
61 Posted 25/05/2021 at 16:55:04
Tony... Really? No wonder you say people seem to stumble over what you mean sometimes.
Tony Abrahams
62 Posted 25/05/2021 at 17:07:52
The fact that you knew what I meant and took the time to bring it up was good enough for me Michael, the second part was me just being factious mate, but it might have been half funny if we were sitting in the boozer having a drink mate!

I can see you shaking your head now Michael!

Thomas Richards
63 Posted 25/05/2021 at 17:14:16
You should have paid attention at school Tony instead of moulding yourself to play professional football.
Every young mans dream and something that the vast majority can only dream of.
I'm jealous.

Formal education is overated imo mate.

Dale Self
64 Posted 25/05/2021 at 17:15:51
Pile up the chips Darren but it is not intimidating the Carlo supporters or the man himself. I imagine he would dismiss this as hysteria. I'm struggling to find a statement against him above that is not a straw man or ad hominem argument.

Superstars are no longer around (they never were here), yeah he's a nice guy but he's finished as a top manager...we've had a few good moments but his excuse for not opening up play was his ultimate downfall. This is not an indictment of Carlo as much as it is a perception wish list by those who apparently don't wish to be called Haters because, well, who could hate that charming champion whose skills as manager have obviously atrophied.

It's a bit over the top even for you Darren.

Brent Stephens
65 Posted 25/05/2021 at 17:17:25
Don’t worry, Tony. We ALL miss out words at times. Your intended point was clear to me, as all you have to do is look at the wider context of your words.

Hope that sense doesn’t make!

Brian Williams
66 Posted 25/05/2021 at 17:22:30
Tony#62.
I'm laughing mate.

Just imagining Michael explaining things to you in the Excelsior or the like.

Ray Robinson
67 Posted 25/05/2021 at 17:23:03
The punched out boxer analogy used by Darren on the face of it seems a great analogy to illustrate a very valid opinion that Ancelotti may well be beyond his sell-by date, as I believe Mourinho is.

However, surely the washed up boxer is more comparable to the actual football players? Ancelotti is to be compared to the boxer's coach / trainer etc surely?

What I am trying to say rather clumsily is that, for all the very valid criticisms of our manager (selections, negative tactics, substitutions etc), it is the players who must surely shoulder some / most (?) of the blame.

Sigurdsson is past his sell-by date, Gomes is too slow (even before his horrific injury), James is too brittle, Delph is too injury prone, Bernard too small, Davies, for all his likeability and willing, is simply not good enough and Iwobi is - well just Iwobi.

Apart from Iwobi there is no dynamism and pace and apart from Sigurdsson, there is no goal threat. Apart from James, who I believe was a calculated risk which hasn't come off, NONE of these players were signed by the current manager.

If he doesn't redress the blindingly obvious imbalance, lack of pace and energy and goal impotence in the current midfield over the summer, then and only then would I start to call for Ancelotti's head. If he can't see what is staring him in the face, then he IS a busted flush and he will deserve to go. So, meanwhile let's see what happens. Sacking him now, would only add to the club's instability, as others have already pointed out.

Sometimes, you need to give people the chance to correct their failings before you sack them.

Joe McMahon
68 Posted 25/05/2021 at 17:33:22
A good article Darren, and I tend to agree. However if Carlo was the manager at City, they prob would still win the league, but I suspect Pep would have done better at Everton than 10th. He certainly would have addressed the chronic lack of goals (even with the same shitty squad Everton have)
Kieran Kinsella
69 Posted 25/05/2021 at 17:35:59
The "old warrior" who belongs to a "bygone era" is the same age as half the posters on here, including the original poster. I can see the argument for the "fit" e.g. a Rollys Royce chauffer may not be the best man to drive a milk float. But the old man argument opens up the question, have all the critics of his age stepped back from their hard earned roles in their respective careers as they're "old warriors" from a "bygone era" also. I suspect not.
Terry Downes
70 Posted 25/05/2021 at 17:40:33
Bring back Martinez. Love him or hate we played the best football I've seen at Everton for years. Even when we lost it was attacking football with pace, something that Everton seem allergic to. Worth another chance!
Ian Bennett
71 Posted 25/05/2021 at 17:44:36
The Wolves game was the most this team has run all season, according to Toffee TV.

I watched that performance in person, and for the first 30 minutes we got dogged. These fellas aren't fit, that's clear.

Thomas Richards
72 Posted 25/05/2021 at 17:46:32
Great point, Kieran. Age is merely a number.

"Ay Da Vinci you can pack all that stuff in you old bastard"

"Rembrandt, put the brushes down, you silly old fool"

"Ray Arcel, you should not still be producing and training World Champions, you're an OAP."

Ray Robinson
73 Posted 25/05/2021 at 17:49:51
Kieran #69, very perceptive! I took voluntary retirement before they realised I was a dinosaur!
Tony Abrahams
74 Posted 25/05/2021 at 17:49:58
Now that Michael is in England, I'd give him my seat for any Everton game, if he needed it Brian, and I'm sure he's not so literal when he's not working, so I can actually understand his frustration with the likes of me.

I'm glad I've had a street education, Thomas, but I'm not sure how a formal education could be overrated though, mate. It sounds stupid, but I'm sure I would have made a career in some capacity with regards staying in football, but us city kids can be a bit crazy sometimes, and I'm sure it's because we have educated ourselves in a different way, unfortunately.

Brian Williams
75 Posted 25/05/2021 at 17:56:10
Yer a gentleman Tony, that Dave fella's not done a bad job has he?
Thomas Richards
76 Posted 25/05/2021 at 17:56:19
Two of my mates have kids who went to uni, Tony. Both passed the requirements needed for their qualifications. One works in a shop. One is on the building.

Now, I don't know how typical that is across the board I am just using the example. An education in life beats it hands down imo.

Jay Harris
77 Posted 25/05/2021 at 18:05:39
Combine the University of Life and the University of Education and what do you have?

Carlo Ancelotti – a wiser old fox than many on here.

Rob Halligan
78 Posted 25/05/2021 at 18:18:35
As of today, Ancelotti is 61years of age. If that's finished then God help the majority on here!
Barry Rathbone
79 Posted 25/05/2021 at 18:35:32
The other monumental concern is Ancelotti's piss-poor transfer dealings.

James, beautiful technician that he is, either does not want to or is physically incapable of contributing a full season. Allan and Doucouré are simply dreadful – scraped from the same barrel bottom as Schneiderlin, Klaassen, Walcott, Ashley Williams, Tosun, Bolasie etc.

Terrifyingly, I just remembered Carlo was in charge at Milan when they allowed the corpse of footballing mannequins, David Beckham, into the gaff.

Moshiri is going to waste so much money over the next 6 months...

Don Alexander
80 Posted 25/05/2021 at 19:07:44
Not surprised by Dazza's latest wellying of a manager, but am bemused by the 10cc lyric in the title.

What has he got in common with the girl in Dr No, Dazza?

Anyway, in keeping with the 10cc idea I think most of us would like to hear this from our (comparatively!) young whippet of a boss when he next speaks with Mr Moshiri;

Gimme the reddys
Gimme the cash
Gimme a bullet
Gimme a smash
Gimme a silver, gimme a gold
Make it a billion for when I get old
Art for fans' sake
Needs money for God's sake!

Mike Allison
81 Posted 25/05/2021 at 19:50:47
Terry, 70.

I think you’re only remembering the first season there. There were two years of aimless backwards and sideways passing where his ‘philosophy’ took precedence over results and we were boring as hell to watch.

We certainly weren’t ’attacking’ and there was no pace to our game whatsoever.

Darren Hind
82 Posted 25/05/2021 at 20:18:16
Age? Who mentioned age?

Michael Jordan finished at 30. Bjorn Borg finished when he was about 26. Frankle was done when he was 4.

It's not about age. It's about recognising when your best stuff is done.

Thomas Richards
83 Posted 25/05/2021 at 20:22:44
Age can affect us as we grow older. Memory is one of the first things affected.

Kieran Kinsella
84 Posted 25/05/2021 at 20:28:31
"Michael Jordan finished at 30." and then carried on until 40, when he was in the all-star team again in 2002, and 2003. But as someone using his physical rather than mental prowess you'd expect him to finish at 40 or before.

Carlo isn't a player, he's a manager so he only has to deal with cognitive decline.

Chris Hockenhull
85 Posted 25/05/2021 at 20:37:00
There was a bloke who hit 80 yesterday. The experts all lauded him to the skys... a revolutionary. changed everything...did it all. Then said to be washed out after 10 years. Came back with better results than before.. then faded away as a ‘has been’ who was totally out of sync with the modern era. Oddly enough then once in his late 60’s eclipsed a lot of what done in the previous 60 years. Have a little faith... lightening can strike again..and again.. and again!!
Rob Halligan
86 Posted 25/05/2021 at 20:38:26
Tony Everan
87 Posted 25/05/2021 at 20:43:00
Darren, Frankel still going strong at 13.

£175,000 a hump !

Darren Hind
88 Posted 25/05/2021 at 20:44:43
Haha Tony.

Thats a fair cop. Serves me right

Jack Convery
89 Posted 25/05/2021 at 20:45:05
10cc on TW - Good News ( B side to I'm Not In Love by the way ).

I keep asking myself Why EFC make me want to CRY ?
Is it because I have this Silly Love for them or is it because they always fire Rubber Bullets when the real deal is required. Would we Feel The Benefit I wonder if Carlo left - personally I doubt it. Will Moshiri do the Wall Street Shuffle and spend big or will UEFA stop us in our tracks re FFP. Carlo said UEFA should sort the so called Big 6 before looking at EFC - wanna bet ? Maybe not being in Europe means our spending will go under the radar but I doubt it.

So we are going to miss out on our One Night In Paris but we'll be there next season. Oh well The Things We Do For Love. So til then. please Mandy fly me away.

Thomas Richards
90 Posted 25/05/2021 at 20:45:34
Thanks Rob.

Page filling gossip.
The Echo Everton reporter has us linked with eleven different players over the last week or so.
Same page filling gossip mate


Tony Abrahams
91 Posted 25/05/2021 at 22:37:09
Just been watching Mayans MC, on the telly Chris H, and the lyrics “your daddy he’s an outlaw” started playing loudly. It’s one of my favourite Dylan tracks, (amongst many of course) and hopefully Everton can be Carlo’s, “one last cup of coffee” - before he’s truly banished to that - valley below!
Dale Self
92 Posted 25/05/2021 at 22:48:25
Ooh Tony, that track is a good one but fuckin' Mozambique lights me up every time I hear it. No Everton angle there, just diggin on Dylan. Ok, wait, that album is Desire and Carlo cannot be done like Hurricane was. There's always an Everton message if you look for it.

I will wryly note on this thread that Gattuso will be the new coach at Fiorentina! That might complicate the 'got fired from his last three jobs" line.

Will Mabon
93 Posted 25/05/2021 at 22:57:40
It's the manager.
It's the players.
He needs his own players.
A good manager would get a tune out of that squad.
Any manager could get a tune out of that squad.
No manager could get a tune out of this squad.
Where would Pep finish with these donkeys?
Parker would win the Prem. with City's players.
We'd be 4th with Pep and these players.
Carlo would win the quadruple at City.
A manager of elite players.
A manager suited to survival.
A manager suited to building a team.
He lost the dressing room.
The players got him sacked.
He didn't trust the players.
Etc.

Serious question. How much is the players, how much is the manager?

Mike Gaynes
94 Posted 25/05/2021 at 23:13:00
Rob #54, Sky has taken down the page where it reported that Bobby was a candidate for Spurs.

I think he'd be insane. He can win not only the Euros but the World Cup with that Belgium side, which keeps getting better and better as players like Tielemans and T. Hazard come into their own. And between tournaments he gets to hang out on TV and commentate with Kate and the gang. Can't imagine he's fool enough to give that up for a Spurs club that is losing its best player.

Mike Gaynes
95 Posted 25/05/2021 at 23:18:48
Darren #82, Michael Jordan finished at 30???

Not hardly.

He won his last NBA title (and was Finals MVP) at 35. Played his final game at 40 years 2 months. Scored 15 points that night if memory serves.

Mike Doyle
96 Posted 25/05/2021 at 23:33:20
Mike # 94 ] Agree. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that Belgium could win the Euro’s & World Cup - in which case Martinez will be looking at bigger jobs than Spurs.
John Keating
97 Posted 25/05/2021 at 23:44:54
Brian Williams 31
Brian word for word spot on.
Very easy to point out faults but difficult to suggest plausible answers
We’ve had the same monotonous bile from before Ancelotti was appointed but never one single comment on a rational alternative.
Seems ageism is alive and well here especially from those who are of an age
So glad the seasons finished so we don’t have to read the same repetitive never ending hate filled posts.
Rob Dolby
98 Posted 25/05/2021 at 23:53:54
Good article Darren. We all know your stance on Ancelotti. The article is more considered than some of the one line 'busted flush' stuff we normally see from other posters after a defeat.

Is 18 months enough time to judge a manager in the middle of a pandemic.

I do think we have made progress and are harder to beat. I think the squad is better than what he inherited. I also think we employed an Italian manager that values a win over performance.

A season without fans has warped results for nearly every team. No surprises the teams with the biggest, strongest squads finished in the top 4 and the will do again next year.

With another 3 or 4 signings and home support I can see us cracking the top 7.
I know that's not what people want to hear but the reality is the top 4 are so far and away from us it would take 4 or 5 seasons, breaking our transfer record multiple times in order to even mount a challenge.

Changing managers every 18 months doesn't work unless Moshiri starts throwing money around like Abramovich which is unlikely to happen given the last 5 years of investment.

It's a big summer. If Ancelotti doesn't get the financial backing to improve things I wouldn't be surprised if he walked away.

Derek Thomas
99 Posted 26/05/2021 at 02:06:14
Brian @ 31; If not, then who?
Back when the choices were a not yet regained mojo Moyes or the FSW. I wanted
Bielsa.
If Ancelotti left - I'd Still want Bielsa.

But I bet we'd get a lot more players than just Rodriguez ruling themselves out with phantom calf injuries and 'fatigue' if that happened.

*puts on tin hat and awaits incoming when (if) Leeds and Bielsa have a Sheff U. 2nd season syndrome.

"Pep wouldn't struggle to get a tune out of these - he'd buy new one's."
But how come Pep, Bielsa/Leeds, etc and ffs, even the rs, spot all these decent players.

W. T. actual F, do Brands and our scouts do? wear blue tinted Mr Magoo specs?

Steve Brown
100 Posted 26/05/2021 at 04:17:27
'Who would you replace him this?' is the key question when deciding to sack someone. A board doesn't sack the CEO, sit back and saying, 'right lads, what do we do now?' Unless of course they run Spurs.

A lot of analysis and thought is being put into why Ancelotti should be sacked. What is the outcome of the analysis and thought on who should succeed him? That would be a very interesting column and debate.

Steve Brown
101 Posted 26/05/2021 at 04:26:59
To be fair to Darren - not something I've ever typed before! - he never mentions age in relation to Ancelotti. The main culprit in calling Ancelotti too old (ageism) is 60 year old Jonathan Tasker.
Tony Abrahams
102 Posted 26/05/2021 at 07:16:31
It makes me smile every time I hear that song Dale, Chris H, or even Chris W, know a lot more about Dylan, and might be able to confirm if it’s the great mans most upbeat song!

Maybe it’s subterranean homesick “blues” Dale, and how apt that our own manager is being questioned by a few, because they say he lacks the title of a Dylan album!

Did Gattusso get the bullet, or walk out because of near impossible owners?

It was only at the beginning of the season before last, that I saw Napoli, have a little bit to much nous, for an at the time rampant Liverpool side, so with the proverb about Leapords never losing their spots, my only concern is that even great Bob Dylan used to veer of track occasionally!

Colin Glassar
103 Posted 26/05/2021 at 07:41:18
I see Carlo flew back to Italy straight after the game to be with his dying former wife.

People are in quick to criticise without knowing what goes on behind the scenes. COVID, break-ins, having to manage shit players like Iwobi, Davies and Gomes and worrying about the mother of his children.

Moshiri, when he hired Carlo, knew this was a long term rebuild and so it will be. Cry, shout, stomp your feet all you want, Carlo will still be here next season and probably the season after that as well.

Rob Halligan
104 Posted 26/05/2021 at 08:15:43
Colin, unfortunately Carlos ex-wife died recently. She is the mother of Davide. Don’t know how long she had been ill, but, as you say, nobody knows how much this could have affected Carlo or Davide?
Trevor Peers
105 Posted 26/05/2021 at 08:54:24
Carlo's unfortunate loss doesn't auger well for our dealings in the transfer market. The top clubs are already cherry picking the elite players and we need to act quickly to get the best of the rest.

It's a crucial time for Carlo, he needs to sign players with a winning mentality to regain some momentum after a desperately average season, where he seemed to lose the players trust towards the end of the season. It will be a really difficult task I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

Chris Williams
106 Posted 26/05/2021 at 08:54:30
Tony,

Have a listen to his album from last year. The best stuff he’s done in years for me. It’ll wind up one of his classics. Not bad for an old fart of 79! It gives me hope, let alone Carlo.

Try and find a live version of Caribbean Wind as well. Great, great song that comes out of possibly his most scorned ‘Christian’ era. Greatness shines through the dark, and sooner or later reassert itself.

A nice late Carlo blossoming would be nice, lasting about 10 years maybe. Easy for a young man like him!

Dave Abrahams
107 Posted 26/05/2021 at 10:03:11
Steve (101) You’re as old as you feel, or maybe, There’s no fool like an old fool, depends on each individual- - - erm on different days.
Tony Abrahams
108 Posted 26/05/2021 at 10:28:37
I'm not sure I'd like us to dominate, dominate, dominate, Chris, just winning something every other year would do me mate, and thanks for the tip on The Maestro!
Chris Williams
109 Posted 26/05/2021 at 13:52:21
I can dream Tony
David Cash
110 Posted 26/05/2021 at 16:57:39
Sorry Dazza mate, but that's pure shite.

Borg, McCoy and Calzaghie were in sports where the results depended entirely upon their own performances. There are no comparisons to be drawn.

And can you imagine Fergie's answer if somebody suggested he retired at 61?

Must admit though, you, were bang on the money about Honey Ryder.

Dale Self
111 Posted 26/05/2021 at 17:22:47
Right on Colin 103. All the more reason to be thankful and celebrate that Everton at least try to get it right. Condolences to the Ancelottis. I hope he and Davide heal well in this place and become honorary Scousers.

And Tony, I assumed it was simply because Napoli missed out on CL from a good position. I'll go get informed at some point but never liked Gattuso, never really liked Fio, so that works out.

Danny O’Neill
112 Posted 26/05/2021 at 17:22:48
Apparently a long illness Colin. According to what I've read, they knew each other from childhood.
Thomas Richards
113 Posted 26/05/2021 at 17:33:47
Darren 110,

Imagining Sralex reaction if anyone suggested he retire early. 😁😁

Derek Moore
114 Posted 26/05/2021 at 19:09:59
Interesting and provocative as ever, Darren.

One point that you did not address is the man behind the throne. Everton is now perceived as a "firing" club, for better or for worse. Our owner has dispensed with Martinez, Koeman, Allardyce and Silva within his comparatively short tenure as majority shareholder. Moshiri has not been shy about pulling the trigger.

I firmly believe that no young manager could come here and succeed as the owner simply would not believe in them sufficiently to do so. At least a poor period of form can be rationalized against Ancelotti's CV and experience, and his eye-watering contract should mean he's immune from a panic knee-jerk style sacking. A younger manager, without the golden handcuffs of an enormous payoff, nor the owner's belief in his track record, would be under the bus almost before we got on it.

So we don't have the culture to support or develop a brilliant young manager. If you generally agree with that, then there's little point in asking for one. A bit like asking for a jumbo jet for Christmas when you live in a two-up, two-down. Where you going to put it, lad?

I do take your point that Ancelotti at times has seemed like Van Gaal did in his tenure up the East Lancs Road. Past his very best let's say. That said, the "past his very best" Van Gaal did deliver Man Utd an FA Cup win. Which is probably the best rejoinder to give.

I noted on another thread, the very best Ancelotti teams never played Guardiola's expansive football. They were defensively resilient, kept their shape wonderfully, could soak up long periods without the ball and created quality chances that were clinically taken.

At times this season, especially away, we've played enough like those great Ancelotti teams of yore that I think there's still something there.

I'm not knocking Dom's contribution by any stretch, but I also think it's fair to say "clinical finishing" is not what springs to mind when you think of him. Richarlison, inexplicably and despite the obvious effort and intensity, was largely shite all season with some flashes of brilliance and flashes of very shite in for colour.

Even in the first half of the mullering by Man City we created some very takeable opportunities apart from the penalty. Allan played in Richarlison who put it wide, Dom worked the keeper on a nice through ball. But the great strikers, Shearers or Van Nilstelrooy or Kane, plant one of them in the net and change the game. No manager can adequately plan in the game for "individual brilliance". I honestly think Ancelotti carried this bag of shite as far or almost as far as anyone could.

The fact is, a large part of this playing group have repeatedly under-performed for multiple managers. We had spells under Silva and Ancelotti where we have actually looked like a competent football team for multiple games at a time, but it's actually a mirage. This group have shown for everyone at every stage they cannot sustain that high level of performance necessary for long enough to taste success.

Another way to view the situation is we either have:
A) the right players and the right manager;
B) the right players and the wrong manager;
C) the wrong players and the right manager; or
D; the wrong players and the wrong manager.

For my part, Darren, I have dismissed A and B entirely from my thinking. Allied with what I stated about why a younger manager could not be expected to succeed here with our majority shareholder, you can see how rapidly the palatable choices diminish.

I'm rather hoping the answer is C, because D means we're well and truly fucked for another few years at least. I think we'll know by the end of this year and probably the summer where it's heading. I suspect it might not be anywhere long-suffering Evertonians want to go, but I still think we're going there.

I hope we as a club have a great summer and I hope all the posters on ToffeeWeb do too. (Southern hemisphere winter of course, but that's like most of the Northern Hemisphere's summer anyway....)


Colin Glassar
115 Posted 26/05/2021 at 19:50:57
Great post, Derek. I have to agree with most of what you say.
Darren Hind
116 Posted 26/05/2021 at 20:59:56
Nothing wrong with your front Casho.

You tell me I shoudnt compare Carlo Ancelotti to other sportsmen. Then you blatantly compare the 61 year old Carlo with a 61 year old Fergie.

Just to be Clear here. Ferguson was not a former winner of trophies. He was still winning them and his teams played with a swashbuckling style.
Carlo hasnt won anything in years. Worse than that. His teams have been paying souless spoiling shite.

I wasnt comparing Carlo to other sportsmen. I used a few names as examples of when people (from all walks of life) Know when to call it a Doris

Kieran Kinsella
117 Posted 26/05/2021 at 21:17:06
Darren

Casho should have compared with 47 year old Fergie. Third year in role at man Utd, had won nothing in years, busted flush playing boring football. His glory days at Aberdeen were history and he was punch drunk against the brilliant new champion George Graham. Fergie Finished 11th in the Premier League, 51 points, lost at home to the likes of Derby, Coventry and Norwich. Lost 7 of the last 9 games of the season. He was right to realize the game was up and to retire then as the fans were demanding. Oh wait.

John Keating
118 Posted 26/05/2021 at 23:15:58
Derek and Kieran good posts
Gavin Johnson
119 Posted 27/05/2021 at 16:26:45
Dazza won't ever rest or be happy until Rhino gets the job and takes us back to the big time ;)
Mike Gaynes
120 Posted 27/05/2021 at 16:31:28
Derek #114, superb summary. That post will go on your Greatest Hits album.
Gerry Morrison
121 Posted 27/05/2021 at 16:45:36
I'm with Derek. I think we have to give Carlo another season. Besides, it will mean another year of great posts from Darren.
Tony Everan
122 Posted 27/05/2021 at 17:13:05
Derek, The multiple choice answer is C, sort of, or

E) Four or five wrong players, Right manager, Wrong Training personnel / methods.

RB, CB with excellent recovery pace, Attacking Midfielder, Right Winger and striker to challenge/backup DCL.

Passing, control, teamwork, movement off the ball, sharpness all need dramatic improvements on last season. The manager oversees all this but there just has to be training deficiencies, it’s all too much to be entirely coincidental.

Steve Brown
123 Posted 27/05/2021 at 17:21:29
Carlo hasn't won anything in years? Granted, it was 2017 when he last won a trophy as a manager. Following the league title with Bayern, he took 8 months off and then spent 18 months with Napoli before joining us.

He has won 19 trophies as a manager in the period since we last won anything.

Danny O’Neill
124 Posted 27/05/2021 at 17:42:16
Very good detailed analysis Derek Moore (114).

I'm with option C. We have a manager that is, admittedly and arguably, past his best glory days in terms of being at the very, very top. But, just like a player who has seen his best days, he can still do a job and may have one last hurrah in him.

Provided with the right players, he stands more chance of putting us back on the right footing and potentially winning something over the next few years than if we sack yet another manager and try to start again with a Silva-like chancer.

For me, let's see what players we bring in and then see what the manager can do with a better collection of tools at his disposal next season. We're not even 18 months into the manager's reign yet.

Darren Hind
125 Posted 27/05/2021 at 19:45:52
Good stuff, Derek.

A cut above the moronic "who would you have instead?"

I don't agree with you, of course. I said I didn't want this manager right from the off because I believed he couldn't do anything with these players. It was a forgone conclusion.

I don't believe it is a matter of simply A, B, C, or even D. That kind of attempts to put fans in compartments. It doesn't work like that though mate.

For my part, I have dismissed A + C from your list. Carlo isn't, never was, and never will be the right manager of this club... but I don't necessarily subscribe to B or D either. We have some very good players, we don't have enough of them to challenge for Top 4; we have some ordinary players.

We need creative players to break into the Top 4 but, despite all his years in the game, Carlo has very little previous of signing such players. He has, rather fortuitously, inherited these types of players at other clubs.

We need to sign talented players with their best days in front of them, not behind them. Carlo has always struggled on that front.

Good points though, Derek.

Like I say, I don't entirely agree with you, but you offered more points in one post than the "fingers in the ears" excuse makers have managed in 18 months.

Thomas Richards
126 Posted 27/05/2021 at 19:56:03
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/carlo-ancelotti/spielertransfers/trainer/523

Ancelottis signings
All tackling machines 😁

Thomas Richards
127 Posted 27/05/2021 at 20:16:57
"We need creative players to break into the top four, but despite all his years in the game Carlo has very little previous of signing such players. He has, rather fortuitously inherited these types of players at other clubs."

Wrong again, Darren.

Barry Rathbone
128 Posted 27/05/2021 at 20:17:25
Thomas 126

Admittedly I only looked at the first page but you seem to be inadvertently making Darren's point.

The vast majority on the list were elite players going to elite clubs Carlo was managing. What sticks out like a sore thumb is the contrast with signings he's made for us on that same page,

David Thomas
129 Posted 27/05/2021 at 20:26:48
Darren Hind,

You say we have some very good players, I disagree with that statement as unfortunately in my opinion (outside of Godfrey who has shown a lot of promise) I don't think we have any other very good players.

Who are you referring to?

Anthony A Hughes
130 Posted 27/05/2021 at 21:09:14
Darren why is it "moronic" to ask you who would you like as manager?
John Keating
131 Posted 27/05/2021 at 21:38:01
Barry
Thing is if you are at an elite club you can afford to bring in elite players. Who wouldn’t??
Presently we are shopping at Primark but hopefully we can get some good deals to at least improve us slightly season on season
Unless our Russian friend comes in full blown improvement is going to be slow
However now Poch might be going back to Spurs Holgates price might shoot up as Spurs and City go for him
Stan Schofield
132 Posted 27/05/2021 at 21:42:23
This article is of course purely academic, because Ancelotti won't be leaving for a while yet, and his tenure thus far is difficult to assess, particularly after a 'COVID-season' where many things have been out-of-kilter, Everton's home form being an example mirrored to a large extent by other clubs.

When we play badly and get a bad result, many people slate the players, saying they're not good enough. But then, at the same time, others want the manager sacked. Truth is, we have a squad of good players, but not good enough to play consistently well and compete near the top of the table consistently. Our spending on players has been commensurate with that, and is massively less than the spending of the likes of Man City. If we want to play well consistently, we have to both retain the best (and we haven't) and buy the best (and we haven't).

So to say that Ancelotti was humiliated by Guardiola is simply drama-queen stuff. Man City have a vastly superior squad to ours, and defeats like we've seen are not unanticipated. Well, anyone who doesn't anticipate it is in cloud cuckoo land.

So why not just give this incessant current questioning of Ancelotti a fucking rest. Let's give him a full season, one which hopefully has some semblance of normality with respect to crowds returning. Yes, we've seen a lot of shite football, but then that's been the case for three fucking decades with Everton.

No matter who the manager is, to compete AT THE TOP CONSISTENTLY (so we're not talking Leeds, or Villa or Leicester, but we are talking City and Chelsea, and to a lesser extent Liverpool), we need to spend on a much bigger scale. There's little point in having a top-dollar manager unless we have top-dollar players.

Get real.

Matthew Williams
133 Posted 27/05/2021 at 21:52:09
💯% agreed Darren,where going nowhere with our so-called seen it, done it all before Manager,he's a spent force,I mean two sub Goalies on our bench all season long!.

When reading the match day live thread is more entertaining than listening to the game,then you know we're in trouble!.

I know EXACTLY who our next Gaffer should be,but sadly am sure I'd be in a minority of one.

With this Italian fraud still in place I predict another tenth place finish next season too and no chance of breaking out the Brasso neither...sadly.

Mr Moshiri,please sack him off.

Dave Abrahams
134 Posted 27/05/2021 at 21:52:57
I look at Tony’s last paragraph @ (122) and add lack of motivation to the other qualities missing in the eighteen months Carlo has been here and I think if he gets another three or four good players in during the summer and by Christmas there is no obvious improvement in the quality of the squads football and effort, then I would think that Carlo’s better days are in the past and another three seasons have been a waste of Mr. Moshiri’s time and money, not to mention us long suffering supporters, or maybe martyrs wouldn’t be too strong a word.
Ian Bennett
135 Posted 27/05/2021 at 21:59:52
We have some good players. But we just don't have enough of the relatively to other teams - in either key areas or that remain fit for 40-55 games a season.

We are desperately wanting top 4, yet deep down we know that United, City, Leicester, Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham and Arsenal all have better first choice 11s & squads - and who are first in queue when better players come up.

Barry Rathbone
136 Posted 27/05/2021 at 22:40:09
Johnny K 131

But that's the problem Carlo has no experience (successful experience) of shopping at Primark hence initial doubts upon his appointment now look confirmed. He's a lovely fella just not right for Goodison

James Flynn
137 Posted 27/05/2021 at 23:47:28
OP and on, more of the same "It's the manager's fault", moaning. Chalk talk.

With a team near-devoid of goal-scoring talent, we finished 10 points better than last year. 9 points off 3rd Place.

As disappointing as the last game was, we had something to play for. Been some seasons since we did.

Carlos isn't on the spot. Brands is.

If by no later than game 9 next season, ToffeeWebbers are calling for Tom Davies, Brands needs firing.

Darren Hind
138 Posted 28/05/2021 at 06:43:57
Barry 128

Thomas does this all the time. He doesnt have the knowledge to debate, so he argues. I never quite know whether he is representing the case for the prosecution or the defence

"Super" Transfers like Bale and Torres are often done at board level.And they are often done for commercial reasons as well as football. Roman had repeatedly tried to lure lady boy to chelsea. with a series of outrageous offers.
And Real Madrid had done the same with Bale. They were chasing him long before Carlo got there.

What is interesting, is the way these transfers panned out; Bale went from scoring 21 goals in his last season at Spurs to averaging 11.5. The two very publicly fell out with Carlo calling Bale "selfish" (players fault).
As for Torres ? Well once he signed for Carlo. He couldnt buy a goal (players fault)

Carlo has always had better relationships with his defenders. Remember this is the guy who turned Roberto Baggio down after the owner had agreed terms. Carlo reckoned he "wouldnt fit into his system" (Players fault).
This the guy who drove Stoichkov and Zola away because he wanted them part of his rigid system. (players fault) - Btw I still laugh at Thomas's characteristic stupid defence of Carlo, by claiming Zola ran away to chase Romans millions...about 3 years before Roman even got there.

Carlo's is a game spoiler. always has been. He prefers defensive qualities to attacking ones. Yeah he has inherited truly brilliant players to light up games, but caution is always his watch word...This is the guy who was sensationally publicly chastised by the Milan owner for playing negative zombie football despite having the likes of Pirlo, Rui Costa, Rivaldo, Inzahgi, Shevchenko, to name a few, within the ranks. Only after his bollocking did he reluctantly take of the straight jackets.
Yes he has enjoyed great success with his super stars, but negative football without success is just plain negative football

Ancoltti's supporters can rejoice that he will be here for the start of next year, but if they think they may occasionally be on the edge of their seats, they need to think again. Only when he has been driven out by the crowds intolerance can we hope to experience joy and passion again.


Who do I want ? A manager who doesnt have to wait for a corner or a free kick before he allows more than three people to go near the opposition penalty area

Mark Murphy
139 Posted 28/05/2021 at 07:10:16
"I know EXACTLY who our next Gaffer should be,but sadly am sure I'd be in a minority of one."

Who Matthew?

Thomas Richards
140 Posted 28/05/2021 at 07:35:47
Darren,

Stop posting false statements and we can debate anytime you are ready.

I have never seen you answer a direct question by the way. That is normally how debate starts.

Your post.

"we need creative players to break into the top four. Despite all his years in the game Carlo has very little previous of signing such players"

When i showed Ancelotti has plenty of experience in signing "such players"?

Errr, it woz the chairman that done it"

Barry Rathbone
141 Posted 28/05/2021 at 07:50:57
Darren 138

"I never quite know whether he is representing the case for the prosecution or the defence"

Quite so. I suspect if poor old Thomas ever appeared in court he would be wearing handcuffs and accompanied by a carer. His bizarre declarations and that of his chums mostly defy sensible interpretation..

Danny O’Neill
142 Posted 28/05/2021 at 07:55:20
Stan, I'm with you. Regardless of who the manager is or who the manager should be, we need better players on the pitch and a better quality squad. Danny stating the obvious before his second cup of coffee, but that is what it comes down to.

Interesting debate here. Having watched this one unfold on all sides and putting aside the like Carlo / don't like Carlo debate, it made me think.

Now, this is all hypothetical as the manager isn't going anywhere soon unless we have a disaster next season. Many may know my German football background. But reading a lot of what has been said, if we were replacing the manager I think the latest up and coming German coach would be suited to please the majority of Evertonians. They have a knack of being able to coach top talent, spot and nurture up and coming talent and get a tune out of existing players. I think the frustration with Carlo is that he probably only hits two out of those 3.

Not for the first time this week, I need to go and wash my mouth out with washing liquid, but Liverpool acted swiftly and successfully with Klopp. Chelsea, I feel, have pulled off a blinder with Tuchel. This season's RB Leipzig coach is now committed to Bayern.

I'm still behind this manager, but thinking to the future, and I acknowledge I am bias towards German football, but who is the next up and coming German coach?

Thomas Richards
143 Posted 28/05/2021 at 08:02:03
HELP!!

I'm being pack hunted 😁

Andrew Ellams
144 Posted 28/05/2021 at 08:04:54
How many of you blaming the players over the manager were screaming for Silva or Koeman to be sacked because it was all their fault? Ancelotti has added to those squads and improved nothing.

I fear the idea of Ancelotti failing at Everton terrifies a lot of people as where does Moshiri go next so there will always be an excuse to apportion most if not all of the issues away from him. There are still people blaming Kenwright for God's sake.

Danny O’Neill
145 Posted 28/05/2021 at 08:11:45
But hasn't yet be able to add enough to unscrew years of scattergun transfer non-strategy though Andrew.

To turn what was inherited into something near where we want to be is going to take a bit more time.

He doesn't get an eternity or a free ride, but he get's more than 18 months to turn this squad around in my view.

Chris Hockenhull
146 Posted 28/05/2021 at 08:38:56
Tony (102). “Mozambique “. Odd one. Upbeat in terms of positive vibes etc? I get what you mean. Though written as it was in 1975 Mozambique was actually far from being the ‘magical land’ he writes about but a scene of civil war and bloody violence (last performed in 76 then discarded forever.. like “Hurricane” but that’s another story). For upbeat feel as I write this off the top of my head the largely forgotten “You Angel You” from ‘Planet Waves’ doesn’t have a shred of negativity about it. Bit like this site eh😬😬😬???
Conor McCourt
147 Posted 28/05/2021 at 09:06:34
Good read that Darren, that is, until you started sharing with us your erectile manifestations. No need for a secret weapon when this was such a boner-fide, rock solid, stand alone piece. This dysfunction made me think DH no no no as oppose to DR no no no.

As far as I can see the case for the defence all centres around Carlo's CV, our 59 points total, comparisons to last season and the fact that other managers have failed with many of these players. All of which have holes in them as a means of predicting success for an Everton manager or belief in the status quo.

On the opposite side of the fence there are numerous reasons to believe that a change may be desirable at this stage.
1- If we look back to Carlo's first few games are we seeing an evolution, a work in progress? Personally I feel we were better then when it was almost like the best of Silva (control of games) combined with the best of Carlo (tactical nous). We have deteriorated. Our control, passing, movement and interplay is the worst I can remember in nearly four decades as a blue.
2-Linked to this are we even on a plan or a journey? Are players making mistakes because they are struggling to implement ideas, naive or simply trying too hard? No under this regime the only concern has been results. No game plan, no construction, no building, no belief in youth. Now that we have failed we are left with nothing and back to square one.
3- Players-how many players are improving? DCL (though can be argued that may be due to Silva's mismanagement and age rather than Carlo playing to his strengths). Maybe Davies, Maybe Pickford. Noteworthy Regressions include Digne, Richarlison, Sigurdson, Bernard, Holgate while most others have at best stagnated and that's being generous to the Italian.
4- Signings-Have Carlo's two signings improved us? Will they be part of taking Everton forward? No both have failed as were short term appointments designed in helping to achieve our objectives of European football. They were luxury signings which haven't redressed the weaknesses in the squad before Carlo came to the club and Allan especially is over 20 million squandered, dead money that cannot be regenerated.
5- The players both by their actions and words seemingly look like they are becoming frustrated with Carlo's outdated methods. Coleman's praise of Brighton for being such a well coached team was an insight into a players thought process.
6- The last six months. Ominous downward slide.
7- Reasons to hope for better? Have we been unlucky? Have we had a lot of sendings off? Have we had Silva type referring decisions? Are we pummelling teams but not getting the breaks? To all above no. I would say we have been on the right end of many of these this season and wouldn't be as confident of recreating in the next campaign.

For most of the season the table has been Carlo's friend. Unfortunately that panned out as many of us foreseen considering how that early momentum had been generated. Do I see us being fitter, sharper, more coherent next season under this regime. No it will be same old, same old. Different faces but same Carlo, same methods.


Tony Abrahams
149 Posted 28/05/2021 at 10:08:29
Negativity is great as long as we are learning Chris, mate! Thanks for the tip, I’ve been listening to quite a bit of Dylan lately, and probably because Everton, have put me into such a melancholic mood!
Thomas Richards
151 Posted 28/05/2021 at 12:03:39
Casho,

Thanks for blanking me.

Much appreciated

😁😁

Derek Moore
152 Posted 28/05/2021 at 14:07:30
Thank you Darren and others for an interesting debate and some largely kind words.

For what it's worth, I'm not entirely convinced by the manager yet either. But I am convinced on the players in most cases - I've seen enough. Far more than enough, in some cases, than is good for me. Whom is and isn't worth retaining is a different debate I shan't enter into here however.
I saw enough success, especially away from home, and the occasional resemblance of some good Ancelotti teams this season to keep me hopeful. If nothing else, we look much more comfortable without the ball than any Everton team for I think at least a few decades.
I don't think that will be viewed positively by fans when they eventually return to grounds in numbers though, another point Darren tangenially touched on. Being comfortable without the ball and maintaining shape and defensive discipline are really at the heart of Ancelottis footballing philosophy. If match going Evertonians truly won't accept this and want a more "up and at them" style then yes, Moshiri will be cutting another cheque before too long is my guess.
I really don't think it will be much longer before it's obvious to all of us if we have the right manager or not though. Without reinforcements this group will struggle to do better than around tenth again I feel. Things are definitely coming to a pass.

Tony Abrahams
153 Posted 28/05/2021 at 14:53:42
I reckon if he can get the players to fit the system then Goodison Pk will become a cauldron again Derek.

Everyone likes attacking football, but nothing beats educated football, but only if he gets it right of course?

Derek Moore
154 Posted 28/05/2021 at 17:04:35
I'd guess watching twenty odd years of us scrambling to win the ball has conditioned us Evertonians to view the game a certain way Tony.
We're sort of institutionalized at this stage as fans in some ways.

A lot of the fans watching from home don't seem to appreciate sitting back and asking a team to break you down quite the way Ancelotti offers it. (Well that's if the live forum is anything to go by, and Reddit and other such places).
As a boxing fan, I sometimes see this with counterpunching style fighters as well. To a certain element of the mma/boxing fan base that style of fighter just don't resonate and never will. I suspect the same might be true about the football fan base as well, especially in England where the game has traditionally been played as an out and out contest.
I think that's a shame actually Tony as I think counterattacking is the one thing this team does perhaps better than average. And as you might expect too given the managers historic method of success. It's actually when we need to go on the front foot and break through a line we seemed to struggle more often than not.

I think when fans are back, it'll be a bit like after world war two - on a micro scale - to be honest. Packed houses and goodwill because people were happy to be out and getting back to a normal life was the order of the day then and I think it will be again now, especially early on. Maybe those positive waves, as one fellow poster might put it, can spur a more extended period of consistency than we saw at just the start of the season past.

David Thomas
155 Posted 28/05/2021 at 19:25:01
Darren,

Who are these very good players that we have in the current squad?

Thomas Richards
156 Posted 28/05/2021 at 19:35:09
Good question David.
A matter of opinion of course.
Hopefully your question will start a debate.
Dave Abrahams
157 Posted 28/05/2021 at 20:22:41
Conor (147), nice to see you back, very good post, maybe because I agreed with most of it, keep posting mate, you have been missed, by me anyway.

And two more excellent posts @(152 and 154); from Derek, good balanced and sensible posts there Derek, although I would say I think a lot of Everton fans don’t want “ Up and at them football” just football with a bit more adventure than Carlo has them playing, but you are certainly correct in saying that it will not be too long before we know if we have the right manager or not, like you Derek I want Carlo to be the man, desperately, but I have my doubts.

Tony Abrahams
158 Posted 28/05/2021 at 20:32:32
The future is full of guessing for us Evertonians at the minute Derek, but give me a defensively sound team, that knows how and especially when, to really counter-attack, and I will be absolutely delighted mate!

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