Just like the girl in Dr No... no, no

Man City are much further down the track to success than us, to state the bleeding obvious. It was a very disappointing season though, but it seems very likely Mr Ancelotti will be given the chance to lead us into and through next season. Better we are behind him and the team in a raucous Goodison Park, to give him best chance of success, I think.

They started the season brightly but faded badly; with better players and fans in the ground, there is a chance they could keep the momentum going, as they must if we are to awake from the perennial slumber.

Also,10th is unacceptable. Selections have often been disappointing, partially mitigated by our poor alternatives; substitutions have been inert, ineffective, threatless, and frankly sometimes baffling.

What's his lad Davide doing at Finch Farm with regards training methods? We don't play as a team, we can't pass to each other, we look like a bunch of lads who belong 200 metres south, playing in Stanley Park.

How critical can he be of his boy? How likely will he be to address problems there? Would he rather throw himself and Everton under a bus than create family divisions? The buck stops with the manager and it's a glaring failure of Ancelotti's judgement.

So why oh why am I coming to the conclusion to keep the faith and give Carlo Ancelotti more time?

The club has been in all sorts of turmoil for a good few years: Martinez, Koeman, Silva, Allardyce, mid-season changes when flirting with relegation. This instability was destroying us. Ancelotti has had us top half all season; safe, stable and secure. It's a base to build from.

These last few months, Ancelotti has been treading water because conclusions have already been reached. At least four or five first-team regulars are not good enough – even when playing at 100% of their capacity.

I want big changes in the playing personnel. We need four or five younger hungrier quality players. (We all know the positions.)

I want big changes at Finch Farm, I want better and more productive training methods. Davide and Duncan are not professional or experienced enough to drill the players and foster that teamwork ethic that is crucial. Ancelotti has to be totally ruthless here, he is to blame for this continuing failure. If he makes these changes, we'll see the improvements.

If he signs ageing, slow, ex-Galacticos on big contracts, and allows the same failing regimen at Finch Farm to continue ,he'll be forced out by the fans by October.

Darren and others, an appeal: hold fire whilst we await these positive changes.

It's not the fans' job to pick the manager but we can call out the present incumbent if he is not doing his job. We have thrown away a European place and watched some of the most boring football I've watched for many a year.

Carlo is a nice man, he represents Everton brilliantly, but his football is from yesteryear and it's sad to watch him being tactically outmanoeuvred by so-called lesser lights.

This does seem like a season of lost opportunity and there is overwhelming evidence Carlo has been complacent with the necessary changes at all levels... but, just about, the reputational damage that further managerial change will bring on the club after the horror show of Martinez, Koeman, Allardyce and Silva in a short time sways me.

Carlo really needs to have a busy summer and shake the tree very very hard indeed. If he does so, and the fans see that his presence is potentially beneficial to removing the anchors that hold this club back, he will gain support. If he cannot fulfil that requirement, as you suggest, he will be gone by autumn.

So, whether Carlo is the answer or we try someone else, this club hasn't been going anywhere for practically 30 years. Giving Ancelotti another year in the great scheme of things is nothing, so what have we got to lose?

We have had 5 full-time managers in 7 years and they have all failed, and none can moan about a lack of investment. Moshiri has pumped in nearly half a billion to take us backwards, that takes some doing – even by Everton standards.

The way things are going, we will be like Sunderland playing in a stadium that is the envy of every club that we play each week in the Championship... and they have slipped back to League 1 now. Still, let's remember Man City played in the third tier not too long ago... now, they are perennial winners of the Premier League.

The question is: Who do we move on with? Darren is saying Carlo is past his best and gives the reasons why he thinks that. Tony (3), says Carlo is giving too much trust in coaches who are not capable on the training ground and admits the squad is not good enough but asks for Carlo to be given time while he makes positive changes to improve the team and puts his own coaching ideas into play.

I said on a post yesterday we looked like a bum fighting a World Champion, to use a boxing term, in the game against Man City. I don't think there were any redeeming features in that performance by the players, and certainly not the manager, who has turned us in to any of many performances during the season, most notably at Goodison Park.

I've watched and waited all season for some real action from Carlo to stir this team into consistent action and a plan – however dour and miserable to watch – that works. Well he did, away from home, that mostly was to defend deep and snatch a goal on the break, and it worked as far as results were concerned, but amazingly he didn't stick to that plan at home.

Quoting and agreeing with Tony Abrahams take on that score: Why did he change the plan, at the very least some of those dire defeats could have been 0-0 draws, which would have put Carlo's European dream into place and made most Everton fans happy.

Where do we go from here? I'm more with Tony @(3) and will wait a while but any confidence I had in Carlo has wilted a lot over the last few months and I can understand Darren's point of view perfectly.

There have been different players taking up the roles in the team, and most of those players have had nothing to offer that was much different to whom they replaced.

But for a couple of brief periods during any given season, the football on view has been mostly rigid and formulaic with no sign of freedom of expression which has led to the media labelling the current squad as the "Unwatchables" particularly at Goodison.

If we concede that no amount of money spent on wages and transfers will bridge the gap on the richest clubs at least in the short-term and that only the most catastrophic run of results in a season would result in Everton being relegated, is it not fair to expect a style of football that is easier on the eye? and who knows the style might even help to create a happier camp with the players enjoying themselves out on the pitch, which might lead to bigger and better things.

If Everton are unable to win enough points - a number which is getting lower, around a dozen wins would suffice, to stay in the division by playing in a more expansive and expressive way, then perhaps it's time for Evertonians to readjust their ambitions and accept that 10th is the new 7th and that Champions League qualification is as far away today as it ever was, given that Everton was the last club in 2004, to break into the gang of six's monopoly of the top four, with the notable exception of Leicester City.

Everton need more quality and they need more width, if we can't be succesful using the current methods, I'd like it to be more fun when we all return to Goodison and not a chore.

It's not fans' jobs to appoint managers but nor is it our job to sack them, negotiate their contracts and agree transfer targets

We just get to come on here for free and sound off

Who in life makes a major decision without planning for the next move? I sold my house today. Where am I moving to? Dunno

Exactly, Dave! Let's ask Darren who he thinks we should move on with! Who he thinks we should appoint instead of Carlo!

Actually, he's been asked that question over and over and the silence is deafening.

And I don't accept the argument (not yours, Dave, I acknowledge) that you don't need to say who his replacement should be. Somebody saying that we can do better than Carlo is in effect say that they know somebody who is better, as it's in effect a comparison. So who are they comparing with? Who would Darren appoint?

I doubt we'll hear him give an answer to that.

I thought Liverpool schooled us that day, but I was delighted with Everton because of the way they stayed in the game, which eventually led to us equalising.

I then watched us go backwards, especially at Newcastle, with what I'd describe as a very awkward system, with a shape that lacked creativity.

We got injuries, then we played with four central defenders across the back four, and this seemed to suit us because these players were only there to defend.

It gave us our best spell since the start of the season. Four defenders staying back, five across the midfield, and Calvert-Lewin leading the line.

We then got more injuries, and couldn't sustain anything, especially once our fullbacks had recovered and we changed to a more open system.

I've been baffled by some of our formations, but only at Goodison Park, so I'm prepared to give a truthful manager more time.

It's correct that he his not a magician; even if he had gained a few more points and got us into the top six, I would still be of the opinion that too many of our current squad are good enough to really take us forward, and this is something I've felt for years.

Much of this season has been shite, but I'm not convinced that ripping things up and starting again (again!) is the way forward. At some point, we're going to need to hold our nerve and stick with something through the difficult times, Ancelotti is probably the best man to do that with.

I always look at whether a manager seems to learn from mistakes or failures. Moyes did; Martinez didn't; Silva didn't; Ancelotti is in uncharted territory, so I'm not sure, but my default position is to try to use stability and continuity as a strength, because we've seen it work before, and we've seen where the opposite gets us.

This of course all hinges on...
a) The amount of patience Mr Moshiri has.
b) It all not going even crapper, sooner.

Maybe Ancellotti, is exactly what we need? Maybe he hasn't played Josh King, because he was only brought into the club as an insurance policy in case both Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison both got injured, and Ancellotti, didn't even want him?

Maybe Ancellotti has already spoken behind the scenes, telling everyone that, if we want to really improve, we need much better players to come into the football club, and hopefully Moshiri and Brands listen.

I personally think Silva might have still been at Everton if he had been backed with better players, especially after losing two of his better ones. (But that's just another opinion, which probably should be ignored, unless acknowledging that football is mainly about players.)

I don't think Carlo is blameless. (I don't know of anybody who does think that.) It's just that I see too many in the squad who aren't up to consistently good performances. (In addition to those already shipped out, watch the number we now try to ship out.)

Also, our new signings have had too many medium-term injuries; I think a manager needs to be given more than a season and a half and I can't see who we'd replace him with. Open to suggestions!

On a positive note though, Dave, maybe, just maybe there are a few of the U18s who've broken into in the U23s this season who will eventually step up to the first team. I know you watch a lot of the U23s – Small? Whitaker? Hunt? Hughes?

Coming here seemed the ultimate fish-out-of-water scenario... and so it's proved. I desperately wanted it to work but it hasn't and now accompanying pics of him on the reports show a lonely, broken man.

Moshiri won't sack him just yet but he is finished here. He was effectively once the manager of the Ritz was brought here to run a B&B in Seaforth and given a 10-ft conservatory on the back to attract the same high level of clientele. Slightly mad really.

We still need a charismatic manager with fire in his belly and inspiration in his gift – a young Mourinho – but where? I checked Bromyard and he's not there – dunno what to next, tbh.

Ancelotti is past his best, no dispute there. 10th place was a massively disappointing finish given the opportunity we had throughout the season that we repeatedly failed to capitalise on.

You make a good point about him being good when he had the tools; in other words, the players. Pep does now have the tools; the players. Pep couldn't turn this lot into champions, he'd bring in better players.

We need more significant change in the playing staff; otherwise, we'll just keep blaming and changing managers whilst the players get a free ride and pay cheque.

Ultimately, Carlo carries the can for our limp end-of-season return. He's the manager. He picks the team, he gives the instruction. We played some strange formations with some dubious line-ups. But, with better tools / players available, he gets at least another season from me as he (or any other manager) doesn't have to sit there wondering how the hell he's going to get a tune out of a thin and disjointed squad on a consistent basis.

If we hadn't lost to 3 out of the final bottom 4 at home, things would have been better.

That's sort of Darren's point I think.

Everton's total of 59 pts this season is the highest 10th place tally in Premier League history, 59pts on average would ensure a 5th-7th European finish in the Premier League.

Everton finished 4th in 2006 with 61 pts, just 59 pts was enough that year for UCL qualification.

Your post 493 on the Cannon Fodder thread, you said anybody pedalling the line that the same players had got previous managers sacked, as "Same players, my arse".

Our line-up against Liverpool before Silva was sacked was: Pickford, Sidibé, Holgate, Keane, Mina, Digne, Iwobi, Davies, Sigurdsson, Richarlison, Calvert-Lewin.

So 8 that started against Liverpool finished the game against Man City. Surely they are as guilty as the managers they have played for?

We have to hope that next season doesn't replicate David Moyes's second full season where we ended up 4th from bottom above relegated Leicester City, Wolves, and Leeds. We've come a long way since the release of that DVD... on second thoughts, despite the huge outlay, we probably haven't.

I am in a position to help him out. I've put myself on a list to be fostered and with any luck Carlo will foster me and give me a job on the background staff.

Then l will be in prime positition to say,

"Hey Papà, you can't be playing Siggy as a left winger – he hasn't got the legs and can't influence the game chasing backwards to help Digne and our low block against Sheff Utd."

"Hey Papà, please don't play Doucouré as a right-winger, you fucking tit... are you having a laugh, you knobhead?!"

I'm an optimist and hope we get better players in and Carlo gets more out of the players. I believe it takes time, particularly with the way Carlo manages. I understand the question but I don't think Carlo is clueless, unlike many of his predecessors, and his record is that he is a winner almost everywhere he's been, so I'm sure we will keep with him.

If we improve by another 10 points next season and get 69, that would be good and I can't see how we can get that playing the way we do, so I'm optimistic for better players and football.

Having said that, it's better that we have a winner for a change. Same with the dubious fast-tracked coaches and CEO, to be honest. The easy Everton route... but that's another story.

If people "constantly" castigate the present manager and openly say they don't want him here and pick apart his performance without offering an alternative, is that not just a case of having a go for having a go's sake? It becomes pretty clear what's thought about him from some after their tenth very similar post.

Don't get me wrong: Ancelotti's not been as good as he should have been but what's the point of pointing that out time and time and time again if you're not going to go that little bit further and say "I feel we should be looking at so and so" or something of that ilk?

There's no point, IMO, in continually pointing out the problem if you're not prepared to suggest a possible solution. Because, without that, it is just a case of making the same point over and over again.

It's very easy to sit back and point out people's faults and weaknesses and say how bad they are at their job but, if you don't want him, who do you want?

Keep asking away until we get a better answer than Sean Dyche, Graham Potter or some bloke called Steve Cooper from Swansea.

I offer a different view from the OP as I believe all information should be considered based on data we are 2 places higher, 10 points better off than last season. Over the past decade, we have only bettered 59 points 4 times. So, from data-based view, it is clearly an improvement, yet the quality of the football has been shocking.

The cautious approach away worked well with all players contributing. Apart from the home losses, the injuries and move to a more expansive style left us open. As CA highlighted, Everton didn't have the quality of players to go toe to toe with teams.

I would also suggest that the condensed periods of games impacted on our squad... Given the circumstances, I believe Carlo deserves a normal season to improve our home form with supporters in attendance. Also, our away form will drop off next season as other teams benefit from their supporters being in attendance.

I am as disappointed as anyone the way the season petered out... I believe Moshiri sees Ancelotti as his insurance policy, keeping us in the Premier League until the new stadium is built. Carlo will see out his contract; Europe will be a bonus but not essential to Moshiri's plans.

That is a key statement.

Improve the quality of players across the squad. Not blame the manager for trying to manage a mainly mediocre bunch that those before him assembled and couldn't either.

Yes, successful managers get credit for their success. But ultimately it's the players on the pitch that win and lose matches.

Good managers bring in good players. Ancelotti has had one turn of the wheel so far. Even Kendall got 2½ years before the leaflets came out.

And no, it is definitely not a case having a go for having a go's sake. The one thing we can do is assess, analyze and respond to what the manager does, how well his team appears to be set up, what results they get, etc. That's something fans can respond to with incredible validity because it is about how their club performs on the field, week-in & week-out.

But the decision to change the manager, and who the replacement might be, is not something the supporters can effectively contribute to. There is absolutely no point in going "that little bit further" because that part means absolutely nothing.

Maybe the option is that the manager will improve? Foolishly, I always believed that of The Ginger Twat... At least he taught me something. I have since had to accept that these guys are so far up their own arses, they won't change once they have set out their stalls.

But suggesting who might replace Ancelotti is (a) dependent on him actually stepping down or being sacked – very unlikely; and (b) a choice that is entirely in the hands of the club. And therefore a total waste of time and effort speculating about. Especially when any name proffered is totally and utterly without meaning or merit.

Get what you mean about Moyes, Michael. I too thought he was going to do it. Especially around 2009, but then quickly the realisation kicked in.

It's down to the players mostly.

Carlo can only work with the tools he was given 18 months ago. It's not as easy as many seem to think, shifting the deadwood, but slowly we are getting rid, and hopefully they will be replaced with better quality this summer.

Love him or loathe him, I think Carlo will be here until at least the end of his current contract.

I took no notice of your suggestion.
I posted off my own back.
Free the Hallgan One

Arsula Undress, looks good but all wet with barely more than the Emperor's new clothes or the vicious old hand with a kick like a flick knife?
Or Haille Berry in ice water, who did her Mam support and would it be cause for disqualification? And what was the name of the Russian with love who had a whole new approach to training.
Maybe Shirley Eaton who some might compare to our majority shareholder, all gold but little action. Or in the same vein, a bit like the "Big 6", Honor Blackman/Pussy Galore, all that gold that nobody else was to get their hands on. Or the other one also somewhat fittingly an "Avenger", a marriage that everyone wanted but didn't last long. Or Miss Moneypenny or would that confuse the Chairman?

No, for me, sail into BM Dock with the Admiral, "M" - Marco, the one to disappoint the over the park 007 from the Wirral.

Points taken, but isn't anything we say or post on here meaningless blather with regard to improvements because nothing we post on here has any effect other than to get things off our chests?

What I, and many others, would sometimes like to read is other posters suggestions for who could improve us rather than "Carlo's shit, he's a dinosaur, coward" because to me that is meaningless blather also.

Nuno for instance? About to, or has just, left Wolves. Would anyone fancy him as our next manager?

Whether we want him or not has not a jot of difference because, as you say, we have no input, but it may make a welcome change to discuss instead of what I'm sure many will agree has become a tedious point- scoring, childish, back and forth which has turned a fair few away from posting.

He stalled a bit after 3 good years. How confident can anyone be that Carlo still has got it in him to revive his fortunes and Everton's, or has Nuno already shot his bolt?

I was only asking for opinions then it all went a touch too deep. A tad serious given the harmless question I asked.

I like Scott Parker, I can't see Carlo going anywhere for a couple of years at least. I'll be interested in Parker's development in that period.

I know you have trouble with the written word, so I fully understand if you have missed out a vital one... but please read this carefully:

"I would still be of the opinion that too many of our current squad are good enough to really take us forward, and this is something I've felt for years."

Recognize it? That's what you said way back at #15... but I don't think it's quite what you meant... is it? If not, I can fix it. We have the technology.

On the deadwood front, there was an interesting controversy back in 2012 when Ian Holloway was at Blackpool. It emerged that his compensation was tied to player sales. He generated a profit and earned his bonus but then the powers-that-be swooped in and equated it with the old Brian Clough brown paper bags at the motorway rest stops.

Obviously, such an arrangement has scope for abuse, eg, manager just sells off all the good players, makes a packet, and the team goes to pot. But at the same time, it incentivizes him to carefully manage his budget, both in terms of selling but also buying, when he is forced to consider how an expensive signing may impact him later down the line if the player is poor and loses value (ie, half our squad).

I would think it would be fairly easy to keep managers and Directors of Football on the straight and narrow if pay was tied to both on-field performance and managing the cash. For example, you target 7th place; if you get that, you're entitled to your bonus from wheeling and dealing. If you sell all the players and replace them with cheap crap, you don't get a penny of that bonus if the team fails to reach its target.

I just think right now it is and has been too easy for our various managers, chairman, DOF to twist the arm of Moshiri and pay whatever it takes to get whoever is the flavor of the month... and to hell with the consequences.

Joking aside, apparently he's talking to Spurs about their managerial vacancy.

Actually, Is it a joke? He seems to have done quite well with Belgium and he could bring Lukaku back, along with De Bruyne, Eden Hazard and one or two other quality players who are Belgian.

Ok, maybe it is a joke! Or is it? 🤔🤔🤔

If Carlo is past his sell by date what about Brands, Kenwright, Moshiri and DBB shouldnt even be in the conversation.

Everton have been less than mediocre for over 30 years while other clubs have taken advantage of the huge income boost from the Premier league.

How much did we waste on Kenwrights cronies with record rates of interest payments, Lawnmowers for FF ? and all while they made significant gains on their shareholding.

Carlo has made mistakes, FFS all managers make mistakes, particularly in some baffling team selections but we don't know whether he was testing the players and forming an opinion on who would make it and who wouldnt from a squad largely created by his predecessors and the board..

Despite the depressing end to the season where we ended up just behind Spurs and Arsenal who IMO have significantly better squads but who we have competed well with and won at Anfield for the first time in forever.

So personally speaking I have seen green shoots and do not accept for one moment that Carlo is over the hill.

I believe he has taken over a bigger challenge than he anticipated especially in the boardroom but I believe he has the strength of character to prevail and is principled enough to see it through where the likes of Koeman sought refuge in golfing holidays as his riposte to Kenwrights interference and poor recruitment in not replacing Lukaku.

It will take longer than anticipated to get us out of the mediocracy that runs through the club at every level and the competition gets harder every season but with unity and sense of purpose we can do it but it will require patience and support instead of crying in the sour milk all the time.

After all, we're 92% of the way to a Champions League place now; I'd rather find the other 8% than go back to the beginning.

I can see you shaking your head now Michael!

Formal education is overated imo mate.

Superstars are no longer around (they never were here), yeah he's a nice guy but he's finished as a top manager...we've had a few good moments but his excuse for not opening up play was his ultimate downfall. This is not an indictment of Carlo as much as it is a perception wish list by those who apparently don't wish to be called Haters because, well, who could hate that charming champion whose skills as manager have obviously atrophied.

It's a bit over the top even for you Darren.

Hope that sense doesn't make!

Just imagining Michael explaining things to you in the Excelsior or the like.

However, surely the washed up boxer is more comparable to the actual football players? Ancelotti is to be compared to the boxer's coach / trainer etc surely?

What I am trying to say rather clumsily is that, for all the very valid criticisms of our manager (selections, negative tactics, substitutions etc), it is the players who must surely shoulder some / most (?) of the blame.

Sigurdsson is past his sell-by date, Gomes is too slow (even before his horrific injury), James is too brittle, Delph is too injury prone, Bernard too small, Davies, for all his likeability and willing, is simply not good enough and Iwobi is - well just Iwobi.

Apart from Iwobi there is no dynamism and pace and apart from Sigurdsson, there is no goal threat. Apart from James, who I believe was a calculated risk which hasn't come off, NONE of these players were signed by the current manager.

If he doesn't redress the blindingly obvious imbalance, lack of pace and energy and goal impotence in the current midfield over the summer, then and only then would I start to call for Ancelotti's head. If he can't see what is staring him in the face, then he IS a busted flush and he will deserve to go. So, meanwhile let's see what happens. Sacking him now, would only add to the club's instability, as others have already pointed out.

Sometimes, you need to give people the chance to correct their failings before you sack them.

I watched that performance in person, and for the first 30 minutes we got dogged. These fellas aren't fit, that's clear.

"Ay Da Vinci you can pack all that stuff in you old bastard"

"Rembrandt, put the brushes down, you silly old fool"

"Ray Arcel, you should not still be producing and training World Champions, you're an OAP."

I'm glad I've had a street education, Thomas, but I'm not sure how a formal education could be overrated though, mate. It sounds stupid, but I'm sure I would have made a career in some capacity with regards staying in football, but us city kids can be a bit crazy sometimes, and I'm sure it's because we have educated ourselves in a different way, unfortunately.

Now, I don't know how typical that is across the board I am just using the example. An education in life beats it hands down imo.

Carlo Ancelotti – a wiser old fox than many on here.

James, beautiful technician that he is, either does not want to or is physically incapable of contributing a full season. Allan and Doucouré are simply dreadful – scraped from the same barrel bottom as Schneiderlin, Klaassen, Walcott, Ashley Williams, Tosun, Bolasie etc.

Terrifyingly, I just remembered Carlo was in charge at Milan when they allowed the corpse of footballing mannequins, David Beckham, into the gaff.

Moshiri is going to waste so much money over the next 6 months...

What has he got in common with the girl in Dr No, Dazza?

Anyway, in keeping with the 10cc idea I think most of us would like to hear this from our (comparatively!) young whippet of a boss when he next speaks with Mr Moshiri;

Gimme the reddys
Gimme the cash
Gimme a bullet
Gimme a smash
Gimme a silver, gimme a gold
Make it a billion for when I get old
Art for fans' sake
Needs money for God's sake!

I think you're only remembering the first season there. There were two years of aimless backwards and sideways passing where his ‘philosophy' took precedence over results and we were boring as hell to watch.

We certainly weren't 'attacking' and there was no pace to our game whatsoever.

Michael Jordan finished at 30. Bjorn Borg finished when he was about 26. Frankle was done when he was 4.

It's not about age. It's about recognising when your best stuff is done.

Carlo isn't a player, he's a manager so he only has to deal with cognitive decline.

Everton defender Mason Holgate responds to Man City transfer speculation

£175,000 a hump !

Thats a fair cop. Serves me right

I keep asking myself Why EFC make me want to CRY ?
Is it because I have this Silly Love for them or is it because they always fire Rubber Bullets when the real deal is required. Would we Feel The Benefit I wonder if Carlo left - personally I doubt it. Will Moshiri do the Wall Street Shuffle and spend big or will UEFA stop us in our tracks re FFP. Carlo said UEFA should sort the so called Big 6 before looking at EFC - wanna bet ? Maybe not being in Europe means our spending will go under the radar but I doubt it.

So we are going to miss out on our One Night In Paris but we'll be there next season. Oh well The Things We Do For Love. So til then. please Mandy fly me away.

Page filling gossip.
The Echo Everton reporter has us linked with eleven different players over the last week or so.
Same page filling gossip mate

I will wryly note on this thread that Gattuso will be the new coach at Fiorentina! That might complicate the 'got fired from his last three jobs" line.

Serious question. How much is the players, how much is the manager?

I think he'd be insane. He can win not only the Euros but the World Cup with that Belgium side, which keeps getting better and better as players like Tielemans and T. Hazard come into their own. And between tournaments he gets to hang out on TV and commentate with Kate and the gang. Can't imagine he's fool enough to give that up for a Spurs club that is losing its best player.

Not hardly.

He won his last NBA title (and was Finals MVP) at 35. Played his final game at 40 years 2 months. Scored 15 points that night if memory serves.

Is 18 months enough time to judge a manager in the middle of a pandemic.

I do think we have made progress and are harder to beat. I think the squad is better than what he inherited. I also think we employed an Italian manager that values a win over performance.

A season without fans has warped results for nearly every team. No surprises the teams with the biggest, strongest squads finished in the top 4 and the will do again next year.

With another 3 or 4 signings and home support I can see us cracking the top 7.
I know that's not what people want to hear but the reality is the top 4 are so far and away from us it would take 4 or 5 seasons, breaking our transfer record multiple times in order to even mount a challenge.

Changing managers every 18 months doesn't work unless Moshiri starts throwing money around like Abramovich which is unlikely to happen given the last 5 years of investment.

It's a big summer. If Ancelotti doesn't get the financial backing to improve things I wouldn't be surprised if he walked away.

But I bet we'd get a lot more players than just Rodriguez ruling themselves out with phantom calf injuries and 'fatigue' if that happened.

*puts on tin hat and awaits incoming when (if) Leeds and Bielsa have a Sheff U. 2nd season syndrome.

"Pep wouldn't struggle to get a tune out of these - he'd buy new one's."
But how come Pep, Bielsa/Leeds, etc and ffs, even the rs, spot all these decent players.

W. T. actual F, do Brands and our scouts do? wear blue tinted Mr Magoo specs?

A lot of analysis and thought is being put into why Ancelotti should be sacked. What is the outcome of the analysis and thought on who should succeed him? That would be a very interesting column and debate.

Maybe it's subterranean homesick “blues” Dale, and how apt that our own manager is being questioned by a few, because they say he lacks the title of a Dylan album!

Did Gattusso get the bullet, or walk out because of near impossible owners?

It was only at the beginning of the season before last, that I saw Napoli, have a little bit to much nous, for an at the time rampant Liverpool side, so with the proverb about Leapords never losing their spots, my only concern is that even great Bob Dylan used to veer of track occasionally!

People are in quick to criticise without knowing what goes on behind the scenes. COVID, break-ins, having to manage shit players like Iwobi, Davies and Gomes and worrying about the mother of his children.

Moshiri, when he hired Carlo, knew this was a long term rebuild and so it will be. Cry, shout, stomp your feet all you want, Carlo will still be here next season and probably the season after that as well.

It's a crucial time for Carlo, he needs to sign players with a winning mentality to regain some momentum after a desperately average season, where he seemed to lose the players trust towards the end of the season. It will be a really difficult task I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

Have a listen to his album from last year. The best stuff he's done in years for me. It'll wind up one of his classics. Not bad for an old fart of 79! It gives me hope, let alone Carlo.

Try and find a live version of Caribbean Wind as well. Great, great song that comes out of possibly his most scorned ‘Christian' era. Greatness shines through the dark, and sooner or later reassert itself.

A nice late Carlo blossoming would be nice, lasting about 10 years maybe. Easy for a young man like him!

Borg, McCoy and Calzaghie were in sports where the results depended entirely upon their own performances. There are no comparisons to be drawn.

And can you imagine Fergie's answer if somebody suggested he retired at 61?

Must admit though, you, were bang on the money about Honey Ryder.

And Tony, I assumed it was simply because Napoli missed out on CL from a good position. I'll go get informed at some point but never liked Gattuso, never really liked Fio, so that works out.

Imagining Sralex reaction if anyone suggested he retire early. 😁😁

One point that you did not address is the man behind the throne. Everton is now perceived as a "firing" club, for better or for worse. Our owner has dispensed with Martinez, Koeman, Allardyce and Silva within his comparatively short tenure as majority shareholder. Moshiri has not been shy about pulling the trigger.

I firmly believe that no young manager could come here and succeed as the owner simply would not believe in them sufficiently to do so. At least a poor period of form can be rationalized against Ancelotti's CV and experience, and his eye-watering contract should mean he's immune from a panic knee-jerk style sacking. A younger manager, without the golden handcuffs of an enormous payoff, nor the owner's belief in his track record, would be under the bus almost before we got on it.

So we don't have the culture to support or develop a brilliant young manager. If you generally agree with that, then there's little point in asking for one. A bit like asking for a jumbo jet for Christmas when you live in a two-up, two-down. Where you going to put it, lad?

I do take your point that Ancelotti at times has seemed like Van Gaal did in his tenure up the East Lancs Road. Past his very best let's say. That said, the "past his very best" Van Gaal did deliver Man Utd an FA Cup win. Which is probably the best rejoinder to give.

I noted on another thread, the very best Ancelotti teams never played Guardiola's expansive football. They were defensively resilient, kept their shape wonderfully, could soak up long periods without the ball and created quality chances that were clinically taken.

At times this season, especially away, we've played enough like those great Ancelotti teams of yore that I think there's still something there.

I'm not knocking Dom's contribution by any stretch, but I also think it's fair to say "clinical finishing" is not what springs to mind when you think of him. Richarlison, inexplicably and despite the obvious effort and intensity, was largely shite all season with some flashes of brilliance and flashes of very shite in for colour.

Even in the first half of the mullering by Man City we created some very takeable opportunities apart from the penalty. Allan played in Richarlison who put it wide, Dom worked the keeper on a nice through ball. But the great strikers, Shearers or Van Nilstelrooy or Kane, plant one of them in the net and change the game. No manager can adequately plan in the game for "individual brilliance". I honestly think Ancelotti carried this bag of shite as far or almost as far as anyone could.

The fact is, a large part of this playing group have repeatedly under-performed for multiple managers. We had spells under Silva and Ancelotti where we have actually looked like a competent football team for multiple games at a time, but it's actually a mirage. This group have shown for everyone at every stage they cannot sustain that high level of performance necessary for long enough to taste success.

Another way to view the situation is we either have:
A) the right players and the right manager;
B) the right players and the wrong manager;
C) the wrong players and the right manager; or
D; the wrong players and the wrong manager.

For my part, Darren, I have dismissed A and B entirely from my thinking. Allied with what I stated about why a younger manager could not be expected to succeed here with our majority shareholder, you can see how rapidly the palatable choices diminish.

I'm rather hoping the answer is C, because D means we're well and truly fucked for another few years at least. I think we'll know by the end of this year and probably the summer where it's heading. I suspect it might not be anywhere long-suffering Evertonians want to go, but I still think we're going there.

I hope we as a club have a great summer and I hope all the posters on ToffeeWeb do too. (Southern hemisphere winter of course, but that's like most of the Northern Hemisphere's summer anyway....)

You tell me I shoudnt compare Carlo Ancelotti to other sportsmen. Then you blatantly compare the 61 year old Carlo with a 61 year old Fergie.

Just to be Clear here. Ferguson was not a former winner of trophies. He was still winning them and his teams played with a swashbuckling style.
Carlo hasnt won anything in years. Worse than that. His teams have been paying souless spoiling shite.

I wasnt comparing Carlo to other sportsmen. I used a few names as examples of when people (from all walks of life) Know when to call it a Doris

Casho should have compared with 47 year old Fergie. Third year in role at man Utd, had won nothing in years, busted flush playing boring football. His glory days at Aberdeen were history and he was punch drunk against the brilliant new champion George Graham. Fergie Finished 11th in the Premier League, 51 points, lost at home to the likes of Derby, Coventry and Norwich. Lost 7 of the last 9 games of the season. He was right to realize the game was up and to retire then as the fans were demanding. Oh wait.

E) Four or five wrong players, Right manager, Wrong Training personnel / methods.

RB, CB with excellent recovery pace, Attacking Midfielder, Right Winger and striker to challenge/backup DCL.

Passing, control, teamwork, movement off the ball, sharpness all need dramatic improvements on last season. The manager oversees all this but there just has to be training deficiencies, it's all too much to be entirely coincidental.

He has won 19 trophies as a manager in the period since we last won anything.

I'm with option C. We have a manager that is, admittedly and arguably, past his best glory days in terms of being at the very, very top. But, just like a player who has seen his best days, he can still do a job and may have one last hurrah in him.

Provided with the right players, he stands more chance of putting us back on the right footing and potentially winning something over the next few years than if we sack yet another manager and try to start again with a Silva-like chancer.

For me, let's see what players we bring in and then see what the manager can do with a better collection of tools at his disposal next season. We're not even 18 months into the manager's reign yet.

A cut above the moronic "who would you have instead?"

I don't agree with you, of course. I said I didn't want this manager right from the off because I believed he couldn't do anything with these players. It was a forgone conclusion.

I don't believe it is a matter of simply A, B, C, or even D. That kind of attempts to put fans in compartments. It doesn't work like that though mate.

For my part, I have dismissed A + C from your list. Carlo isn't, never was, and never will be the right manager of this club... but I don't necessarily subscribe to B or D either. We have some very good players, we don't have enough of them to challenge for Top 4; we have some ordinary players.

We need creative players to break into the Top 4 but, despite all his years in the game, Carlo has very little previous of signing such players. He has, rather fortuitously, inherited these types of players at other clubs.

We need to sign talented players with their best days in front of them, not behind them. Carlo has always struggled on that front.

Good points though, Derek.

Like I say, I don't entirely agree with you, but you offered more points in one post than the "fingers in the ears" excuse makers have managed in 18 months.

Ancelottis signings
All tackling machines 😁

Wrong again, Darren.

Admittedly I only looked at the first page but you seem to be inadvertently making Darren's point.

The vast majority on the list were elite players going to elite clubs Carlo was managing. What sticks out like a sore thumb is the contrast with signings he's made for us on that same page,

You say we have some very good players, I disagree with that statement as unfortunately in my opinion (outside of Godfrey who has shown a lot of promise) I don't think we have any other very good players.

Who are you referring to?

When we play badly and get a bad result, many people slate the players, saying they're not good enough. But then, at the same time, others want the manager sacked. Truth is, we have a squad of good players, but not good enough to play consistently well and compete near the top of the table consistently. Our spending on players has been commensurate with that, and is massively less than the spending of the likes of Man City. If we want to play well consistently, we have to both retain the best (and we haven't) and buy the best (and we haven't).

So to say that Ancelotti was humiliated by Guardiola is simply drama-queen stuff. Man City have a vastly superior squad to ours, and defeats like we've seen are not unanticipated. Well, anyone who doesn't anticipate it is in cloud cuckoo land.

So why not just give this incessant current questioning of Ancelotti a fucking rest. Let's give him a full season, one which hopefully has some semblance of normality with respect to crowds returning. Yes, we've seen a lot of shite football, but then that's been the case for three fucking decades with Everton.

No matter who the manager is, to compete AT THE TOP CONSISTENTLY (so we're not talking Leeds, or Villa or Leicester, but we are talking City and Chelsea, and to a lesser extent Liverpool), we need to spend on a much bigger scale. There's little point in having a top-dollar manager unless we have top-dollar players.

Get real.

When reading the match day live thread is more entertaining than listening to the game,then you know we're in trouble!.

I know EXACTLY who our next Gaffer should be,but sadly am sure I'd be in a minority of one.

With this Italian fraud still in place I predict another tenth place finish next season too and no chance of breaking out the Brasso neither...sadly.

Mr Moshiri,please sack him off.

We are desperately wanting top 4, yet deep down we know that United, City, Leicester, Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham and Arsenal all have better first choice 11s & squads - and who are first in queue when better players come up.

But that's the problem Carlo has no experience (successful experience) of shopping at Primark hence initial doubts upon his appointment now look confirmed. He's a lovely fella just not right for Goodison

With a team near-devoid of goal-scoring talent, we finished 10 points better than last year. 9 points off 3rd Place.

As disappointing as the last game was, we had something to play for. Been some seasons since we did.

Carlos isn't on the spot. Brands is.

If by no later than game 9 next season, ToffeeWebbers are calling for Tom Davies, Brands needs firing.

Thomas does this all the time. He doesnt have the knowledge to debate, so he argues. I never quite know whether he is representing the case for the prosecution or the defence

"Super" Transfers like Bale and Torres are often done at board level.And they are often done for commercial reasons as well as football. Roman had repeatedly tried to lure lady boy to chelsea. with a series of outrageous offers.
And Real Madrid had done the same with Bale. They were chasing him long before Carlo got there.

What is interesting, is the way these transfers panned out; Bale went from scoring 21 goals in his last season at Spurs to averaging 11.5. The two very publicly fell out with Carlo calling Bale "selfish" (players fault).
As for Torres ? Well once he signed for Carlo. He couldnt buy a goal (players fault)

Carlo has always had better relationships with his defenders. Remember this is the guy who turned Roberto Baggio down after the owner had agreed terms. Carlo reckoned he "wouldnt fit into his system" (Players fault).
This the guy who drove Stoichkov and Zola away because he wanted them part of his rigid system. (players fault) - Btw I still laugh at Thomas's characteristic stupid defence of Carlo, by claiming Zola ran away to chase Romans millions...about 3 years before Roman even got there.

Carlo's is a game spoiler. always has been. He prefers defensive qualities to attacking ones. Yeah he has inherited truly brilliant players to light up games, but caution is always his watch word...This is the guy who was sensationally publicly chastised by the Milan owner for playing negative zombie football despite having the likes of Pirlo, Rui Costa, Rivaldo, Inzahgi, Shevchenko, to name a few, within the ranks. Only after his bollocking did he reluctantly take of the straight jackets.
Yes he has enjoyed great success with his super stars, but negative football without success is just plain negative football

Ancoltti's supporters can rejoice that he will be here for the start of next year, but if they think they may occasionally be on the edge of their seats, they need to think again. Only when he has been driven out by the crowds intolerance can we hope to experience joy and passion again.

Who do I want ? A manager who doesnt have to wait for a corner or a free kick before he allows more than three people to go near the opposition penalty area

Who Matthew?

Stop posting false statements and we can debate anytime you are ready.

I have never seen you answer a direct question by the way. That is normally how debate starts.

Your post.

"we need creative players to break into the top four. Despite all his years in the game Carlo has very little previous of signing such players"

When i showed Ancelotti has plenty of experience in signing "such players"?

Errr, it woz the chairman that done it"

"I never quite know whether he is representing the case for the prosecution or the defence"

Quite so. I suspect if poor old Thomas ever appeared in court he would be wearing handcuffs and accompanied by a carer. His bizarre declarations and that of his chums mostly defy sensible interpretation..

Interesting debate here. Having watched this one unfold on all sides and putting aside the like Carlo / don't like Carlo debate, it made me think.

Now, this is all hypothetical as the manager isn't going anywhere soon unless we have a disaster next season. Many may know my German football background. But reading a lot of what has been said, if we were replacing the manager I think the latest up and coming German coach would be suited to please the majority of Evertonians. They have a knack of being able to coach top talent, spot and nurture up and coming talent and get a tune out of existing players. I think the frustration with Carlo is that he probably only hits two out of those 3.

Not for the first time this week, I need to go and wash my mouth out with washing liquid, but Liverpool acted swiftly and successfully with Klopp. Chelsea, I feel, have pulled off a blinder with Tuchel. This season's RB Leipzig coach is now committed to Bayern.

I'm still behind this manager, but thinking to the future, and I acknowledge I am bias towards German football, but who is the next up and coming German coach?

I'm being pack hunted 😁

I fear the idea of Ancelotti failing at Everton terrifies a lot of people as where does Moshiri go next so there will always be an excuse to apportion most if not all of the issues away from him. There are still people blaming Kenwright for God's sake.

To turn what was inherited into something near where we want to be is going to take a bit more time.

He doesn't get an eternity or a free ride, but he get's more than 18 months to turn this squad around in my view.

As far as I can see the case for the defence all centres around Carlo's CV, our 59 points total, comparisons to last season and the fact that other managers have failed with many of these players. All of which have holes in them as a means of predicting success for an Everton manager or belief in the status quo.

On the opposite side of the fence there are numerous reasons to believe that a change may be desirable at this stage.
1- If we look back to Carlo's first few games are we seeing an evolution, a work in progress? Personally I feel we were better then when it was almost like the best of Silva (control of games) combined with the best of Carlo (tactical nous). We have deteriorated. Our control, passing, movement and interplay is the worst I can remember in nearly four decades as a blue.
2-Linked to this are we even on a plan or a journey? Are players making mistakes because they are struggling to implement ideas, naive or simply trying too hard? No under this regime the only concern has been results. No game plan, no construction, no building, no belief in youth. Now that we have failed we are left with nothing and back to square one.
3- Players-how many players are improving? DCL (though can be argued that may be due to Silva's mismanagement and age rather than Carlo playing to his strengths). Maybe Davies, Maybe Pickford. Noteworthy Regressions include Digne, Richarlison, Sigurdson, Bernard, Holgate while most others have at best stagnated and that's being generous to the Italian.
4- Signings-Have Carlo's two signings improved us? Will they be part of taking Everton forward? No both have failed as were short term appointments designed in helping to achieve our objectives of European football. They were luxury signings which haven't redressed the weaknesses in the squad before Carlo came to the club and Allan especially is over 20 million squandered, dead money that cannot be regenerated.
5- The players both by their actions and words seemingly look like they are becoming frustrated with Carlo's outdated methods. Coleman's praise of Brighton for being such a well coached team was an insight into a players thought process.
6- The last six months. Ominous downward slide.
7- Reasons to hope for better? Have we been unlucky? Have we had a lot of sendings off? Have we had Silva type referring decisions? Are we pummelling teams but not getting the breaks? To all above no. I would say we have been on the right end of many of these this season and wouldn't be as confident of recreating in the next campaign.

For most of the season the table has been Carlo's friend. Unfortunately that panned out as many of us foreseen considering how that early momentum had been generated. Do I see us being fitter, sharper, more coherent next season under this regime. No it will be same old, same old. Different faces but same Carlo, same methods.

Thanks for blanking me.

Much appreciated

😁😁

For what it's worth, I'm not entirely convinced by the manager yet either. But I am convinced on the players in most cases - I've seen enough. Far more than enough, in some cases, than is good for me. Whom is and isn't worth retaining is a different debate I shan't enter into here however.
I saw enough success, especially away from home, and the occasional resemblance of some good Ancelotti teams this season to keep me hopeful. If nothing else, we look much more comfortable without the ball than any Everton team for I think at least a few decades.
I don't think that will be viewed positively by fans when they eventually return to grounds in numbers though, another point Darren tangenially touched on. Being comfortable without the ball and maintaining shape and defensive discipline are really at the heart of Ancelottis footballing philosophy. If match going Evertonians truly won't accept this and want a more "up and at them" style then yes, Moshiri will be cutting another cheque before too long is my guess.
I really don't think it will be much longer before it's obvious to all of us if we have the right manager or not though. Without reinforcements this group will struggle to do better than around tenth again I feel. Things are definitely coming to a pass.

Everyone likes attacking football, but nothing beats educated football, but only if he gets it right of course?

A lot of the fans watching from home don't seem to appreciate sitting back and asking a team to break you down quite the way Ancelotti offers it. (Well that's if the live forum is anything to go by, and Reddit and other such places).
As a boxing fan, I sometimes see this with counterpunching style fighters as well. To a certain element of the mma/boxing fan base that style of fighter just don't resonate and never will. I suspect the same might be true about the football fan base as well, especially in England where the game has traditionally been played as an out and out contest.
I think that's a shame actually Tony as I think counterattacking is the one thing this team does perhaps better than average. And as you might expect too given the managers historic method of success. It's actually when we need to go on the front foot and break through a line we seemed to struggle more often than not.

I think when fans are back, it'll be a bit like after world war two - on a micro scale - to be honest. Packed houses and goodwill because people were happy to be out and getting back to a normal life was the order of the day then and I think it will be again now, especially early on. Maybe those positive waves, as one fellow poster might put it, can spur a more extended period of consistency than we saw at just the start of the season past.

Who are these very good players that we have in the current squad?

And two more excellent posts @(152 and 154); from Derek, good balanced and sensible posts there Derek, although I would say I think a lot of Everton fans don't want “ Up and at them football” just football with a bit more adventure than Carlo has them playing, but you are certainly correct in saying that it will not be too long before we know if we have the right manager or not, like you Derek I want Carlo to be the man, desperately, but I have my doubts.