Long Live Hate

Why not? Because hating LFC has made EFC into second-raters. Hating them has become more important than winning. To be more specific, the entire club - its owners, management, backroom and supporters - decided that hating LFC was so important that for 50 years Everton have chased the next quick fix. One after another. Whether it's a new manager, spending tons - a return to greatness was, and is, always around the corner without any of the nasty business of accepting what needs to be done and spending time and effort rebuilding from scratch. It's never been done because the next scrap with LFC is all that matters. It is a recipe for being permanently feeble.

I hate them.
Bitterly.

Hatred never ends well and Bill's post @1has much merit but as a blue growing up in Liverpool the pain runs deep and I can help but hate them.

Until we overtake them or I die (more likely the latter) I will detest them.

Not only have they blighted my life as a football supporter their litany of criminality has portrayed the city in a dreadful light fueling the scouse scally stereotype far more than crap tv series produced in the area

I might add it isn't individuals most are ordinary, reasonable folk one to one it is the heinous entity they become when together.

The only saving grace is the entire country and probably most parts of Europe feel the same.

Destiny, fate but the CT, semi, in 1977, countless spawny goals, in them days and 1985, have it in my DNA, and that was a long time ago.

Matters since for EFC, in the scale of time have not kicked on but now in this era, I'm hopeful of better days for Everton Football Club.

But my loathing of the RS, will go into eternity.

Barry Rathbone #4 nail on head totally. I've got plenty of mates who are RS fans and we discuss football amicably, collectively though its a completely different scenario. Its like they're injected with a severe dose of gobshiteness. Horrible bastards they are collectively. Not happy unless they're rubbing someone's noses in it.

As you say though, the rest of the country are finally realising what gobshites they are

This is an issue only so long as we fail to achieve being an elite side, winning trophies like we did in the 60s and 80s.

Once we achieve that, the RS will not matter to us. They shouldn't matter now, but their supporters are such ungracious winners and bad losers that it's impossible for them not to matter.

For me, whenever we've been top dog, I've seldom had a passing thought for the RS, because they lay low and stay quiet. That's all that we want.

Bill #1. You make a very valid point but, as per posters above have said & particularly if you started watching Everton in the 60's as a lot of us did, it just isn't that simple. As a grown man, I know it's irrational. Anyone not from Liverpool & not of my generation can't & won't ever understand it & I don't expect them to. Doesn't change the fact though.

Passion, yes. Guts, yes, Courage, yes, Hate, never. We do not descend to those planes. As a club we keep it above that.

I am as passionate an Evertonian as the rest of you (and I write this after the first win at Anfield in 22 years. I was at Uni when Kevin Campbell scored the winner, and surrounded by Mancs as I wore my blue top, with a bag of Everton mints watching the 1995 FA Cup Final). No room for hate. Ever. COYB, and let's win at Anfield next year!

As a kid in the 60's I occasionally went to see them with my red mates but could never actually bring myself to cheer for them. There were plenty of mixed families around though. Everything changed after Heysel and then the Houllier/ Benitez years. Those two just didn't understand the complex relationship between us and them. And Dalglish saw it to be too much like the Celtic/Rangers shite of his homeland. LFC gave Thatcher the perfect excuse to twist the knife into the city even more and football supporters everywhere. The results were the cages we stood in and we know what that led to. I don't hate them. But I do hate the way they seem to attract a particular type of gobshite. Especially the ones who have never set foot in the city.

My first game was seeing Everton beat Villa in 1966-67. We were there against West Brom in 1970 - what great memories. The road I grew up in, in West Derby, we were all Everton fans. But I remember the birthday parties we had as children, when we would chant round the table for Everton and Liverpool. It seemed like the whole world revolved around the city in the 60s. My Dad, a life-long Everton fan, and on their books in the late 1940s, used to say it was good for the city when both teams were doing well. And as a teenager, in the 70s, I would alternate between Goodison one week and then stand on the Kop with a season-ticket mate, the next. (Including one derby, with my blue and white scarf. Don't think I would have the nerve now!) I don't hate them, even now. But I can't abide the collective whining and whinging if something doesn't go their way. And I still blame them for not letting us go on to great things in Europe post-Heysel. But hate? They are not worth it!

I find it very difficult not to detest those fucking horrible bunch of moronic gobshite twats. As others have said, bearable as individuals, complete bunch of self pity, arrogant, self righteous, obnoxious shits.

I hate them as a mass, the author is correct there, but individually I've got Red mates that I cherish, but not when it comes to football, they are different, see the rivalry in a different way to us and let's get this straight as well, for all the success they have had over many years they fuckin' hate us just as much as we hate and loathe them, yesterday's victory will not be accepted by many of them, especially the armchair SKY Red supporters, they take everything as gospel that the media feed them with, even quote them word for word.

The author is right again, even if we win plenty of silverware for the next twenty years we will hate them,I'll be in the “ Naughty Corner” in Heaven twice a year for some of that time if it happens but God will understand, he will say to me “ You're right really to hate them, but rules are rules” and give me a smile.

Even after heysel and they making fun of us ( nec stands for no European cup jibes ) With Hillsboro and now klopps mum dying we have tried to do the decent thing as human beings but they can't help themselves even in their hour of glory. Graffiti on our statues and liver building firework attacks. All very juvenile but they are a very different species always have been.

Brian,

The majority of them love us for two weeks of the year only.

Evertonians have backed them unconditionally for 30 years in thier fight.Rightly so.
The ones that matter know that.

The others thank us then quickly revert to hating us.

Feelings mutual. Ok let's put it another way, on my 58 years on this earth I have never seen title celebrations turn to pandemonium whoever has win it. Fighting throwing glasses intimidating ambulance staff trying to help. All amongst themselves which is daft putting it mildly. That's before we get to the Man City coach disgrace and god knows how a kid or anyone wasn't blinded that night. Pep was far too nice about it. Fergie or Jose would of made sure they was thrown out the competition ( again )

Hi Roy [11] I take it that your Dad was Tom Gardner, a couple of years before my time, I've just looked his record up and it states, South Liverpool, Liverpool [October 1946] Everton [June 1947 to May 1948.] 1 appearance.

Tom Gardner failed to make Liverpool's first team and played once for Everton, partnering Eddie Wainwright in the home League game against Wolves in October 1947, when 46,000 fans saw the 1-1 draw. I think that you must be proud to know that he was considered good enough by both teams, and that he was never on the losing side for the 'Blues' not many can say that, the only one I can recall is Ross Jack, he scored a goal in his one appearance against Middlesbrough away in a 2-1 win, in March 1967.

John [17] Good of you to look it up, but Dad was Jim Gardner.

The story is that, after the war, he was a goalkeeper in the Everton system. No idea how it worked then. In the 60s it was the Youth, B Team, A Team, Reserves, then the First Team. Not sure how far he progressed, but Everton wanted to keep him on.

In those long lost days, they were required to ask the parents first. Nana and Grandad apparently said no, unequivocally, as it was not a well-renumerated job in those days, Dad had no idea, and just thought Everton were letting him go. Mid-60s they told him. Can't imagine how that must have felt!

As Nigel Benn might say, "Personally, I do hate them".

Btw John [17], which website did you find the record of Tom Gardner on? Sounds like something well worth exploring!

As a kid, I couldn't stand them. But getting older means I've realized they don't really matter. Far more things to worry about, than a football club.

Paul,

I was just thinking. It is irrational for a man of my age to hate a football club. I genuinely try to see the best in people, give them the benefit of the doubt. With this breed, I can't do that.

Dont get me wrong. I have got red mates who have been on to congratulate and say we were the better side. All of them season ticket holders.
Sadly, they are a tiny minority of thier fans. They hate us and in return we hate them.

Thomas #23, spot on.

I can just about fathom scousers hating them.

Non scouser fans hating them makes little sense to me.

I haven't got the energy to hate anybody, but I do rather despise that club & many of their gobshite fans. Nonetheless, I've known many reds that are sound.

"This Means More'

Feck right off, you uber capitalist behemoth, win by any means, humility free zone, Euro League power-grabbing, offended by everything, ashamed of nothing, vile and deceitful shower. The mephistophelian manifestation of all that is wrong with modern football and modern football fans.

You are undeserving of my hate.

Hi Roy [18 & 20] apologies for the mistaken identity, however you should still be proud of your Dad, to get to the stage of having a potential future in football is a real achievement. I gained the information from the book "Who's who of Everton." [Tony Matthews 2004].

No matter what the scores have been in derbies ( 0-2 4-0 1-1 0-0 ) the cold hard facts are " kopites are still Gobshites.

Shane, I could explain that but it would be best understood with a Guinness or scotch on the rocks. The sickness has spread to the States I'll just say that.

I wish I could say I didn't hate them but getting it every day non stop for years from dickheads who don't even know where Anfield is wears you down.
The early 60's were a bit easier but when the knobheads like Hughes came on the scene things slowly started to change.
Their European success giving the worldwide exposure only inflamed their entitlement
We now have an entire generation in the City who have never been to a game as half their season tickets are owned by Thomas Cook!
I'm lucky we're all Blues, apart from one red cousin, and nobody talks to him!
As stated by others collectively, or even in a group of two, they are arseholes. Individually they're still pricks!

For a number of reasons, often related to the timing of their peaks and troughs as clubs, the RS represent everything that is bad about the city - self-pity, arrogance, blame-culture, a particular kind of preening self-righteousness, excessive sentimentality, and wallowing in a victim mentality, whereas Everton represent everything that is good about the city - community, generosity, self-deprecating gallows humour, warmth and outward looking starry-eyed hope for a better future, even when the odds seem stacked against it.

It never used to be like this, but in my mind it started with Tommy Smith, he was the first, the proto rs, patient zero.
Funds allowing I used to to with red mates to fill a Saturday afternoon and can reel off the names even now...but looking back, they never went to Goodison hardly at all...hmm?

There was an old saying, so old I can't remember how old, which summed them up in a not quite nasty, but deadly accurate warts and all, play on the word tell ...'you can always tell a kopite - but not much.' - and its true on both counts.

I think they only pretended to buy into the veiled anti Thatcher 'Merseyside' of the League Cup Final, there may have been elements of what is called 'Head-Pattery' in it

A South African I met once described it as...you're only biased against the rs if you hate them more than you should...only he didn't mean biased and the colour wasn't red.

But as Dave said, it isn't the individual family and friends, twice a year. It's the whole collective (why does the words Borg and Cult come to mind?) every day of the year.

Apropos of nothing, back in the day some sections of them used to get on 'well'...cross Pennine, reciprocal trips to pubs and social clubs 'well' with Leeds fans - by their friends shall ye know them.

Oh and I don't know about you, but you'll struggle to find a red item bigger than a tomato in my house...and I don't eat those either and anything thing they did or have sponsored, I immediately stopped used and never used again.

But I'm not really bitter, just wise to their perfidiousness.

Dave (6), Shane (25)

I've had Blues from Canada, NZ, Turkey, Bakofthevanistan etc messaging "made up, at last, the bastards" after the match

However, I've had lots more from mates who support Southend, West Ham, Rotherham, Reading, Arsenal, Newcastle et al who are so pleased for us, adding they can't stand the entitled f'ers

They aren't living alongside the nasty neighbours (can't get a ticket for dem tourists!) but, still, have sussed them out

Kopites have no idea ( cos of the red-dominated "meeja") how other real fans despise their club and their supporters

A Blue for 63 years but I don't actually hate the RS; it's more a loathing and detestation of that totally unprincipled, money grubbing, club and their teleclapper fans.

Shane (25). I don't how you work that out. you don't need to be scouse. They are a repulsive stain on humanity, loathed all over the country, Europe, world. Arrogant, condescending, loud mouthed, abhorrent, ignorant, often aggressive specimens. I despise them with a passion. Individually, one or two are almost tolerable. Collectively, a dark force of evil.

Hey folks, quick question... regarding "hate" has there ever been genuine gang violence between Everton and Liverpool fans, like what happened a couple of years ago at Anfield with the Roma supporters?

I played semipro for years with a former Birmingham hooligan who would occasionally lift his shirt and show off the stab wound scars he got from a Villa fan back in the '80s.

Just wondered if any of you carry similar scars.

Mike @ 37; not as far as I know, there will no doubt, have been more than the odd 1 on 1, but nothing organised... they save that for Man City buses.

Mike I remember a game at Goodison in the 80's when there was trouble after walking down Everton Valley. It certainly wasn't organised just flared up
I heard it carried on into town and in a few pubs there.
Certainly been more antagonistic at the actual games after segregation was brought in. Few more issues on the walks home too
Must admit though, personally, never seen or heard of anything organised

Derek and John, thanks, that's good to know.

Bill (35), Bill been meaning to ask you for quite a while but are you any relation to a former manager of Liverpool, Bill Watson, he is long gone, buried at Anfield cemetery, he was from the North East, he managed Liverpool FC from 1895 to 1912, he also played and managed Sunderland FC.

Liverpool FC are a laughing stock outside of Merseyside. They are considered loutish, arrogant whingers.

They can take their brand and fuck right off.

I think, Anthony, you hit the nail on the head. They are not a football club but a brand that people want to be associated with.

I personally detest the club, primarily because they have never shown any humility for Heysel, not just for depriving a fine Everton team of the chance to become Champions of Europe but for 39 innocent football fans for dying on their watch.

I laugh at the blind arrogance and misplaced faith. Their share owners don't give a fuck about anything except the top line re treatment of the local community around Anfield when looking to free up land to extend their shithole.

I, like many, have lots of friends and associates who follow Liverpool and, at the risk of a sound bite, only a couple of handfuls get what it is about. The rest are just riding the train til they get to their stop.

Not into hating but I must admit I can't stand them😇

Fortunately a Man Utd friend has provided me with the antidote - laughter!

Any excuse will do

The RS are known as “The Tourist Club” for a reason.

Did you know in a stadium with a capacity with 54K+, they only have 27K season ticket holders, yet they keep on harping on about have a huge season ticket waiting list. The reason is very simple, out of the other 27K tickets, there are thousands of tickets that are sold as part of a package. Various travel companies sell them in a package which includes a weekend stay in Liverpool, it's why all the hotels in the city are fully booked whenever they play at home. RS fans can also travel on a day trip from all over the country which also includes a ticket. The club know that by selling tickets on a match by match basis, they will generate a lot more money than if that ticket is sold as “A Season Ticket”

Quite simply, that club doesn't give a monkeys about local fans, never have done, never will. I could tell you some stories about how they treat local fans, but that's for another day!

Rob,

That's a staggering stat about the season tickets. Whenever I got into a debate with a local RS fan, I always asked them whether they went to the match. The answer was invariably No, there's no tickets available. I hadn't ever realised the reason why.

A few years ago there was some social media stuff circulating involving local supporters banging on about the huge number of people at the match interested only in taking selfies, and making sure they didn't lose any of their many bags of club merchandise. Saying they weren't real supporters.

I thought at the time it was a bit mean spirited but I hadn't envisaged the extent of it.

I'm a bit surprised they managed to scrape together the small numbers allowed in for a short period pre Christmas

If you manage to view that Twitter page, scroll down a bit and you'll see a RS fan blaming the new premier league ball for their defeat last Saturday. We seemed to cope ok with it!! 😀😀😀

The ball. The wind.

Have they ever lost a game because the opposition were better on the day?

Given the headline of this post its probably not the right place to post this but I have just read that their keeper Alisson, his father drowned yesterday when out swimming in a lake only 57.

Don't get me started!

Rob post 48. Apparently they play spot the scouser on the kop !

If it's not hatred then I don't know what hatred is. I hate everything about that club.

But I've got red mates, red family, red colleagues. Most of them are okay. I don't feel the need to key cars, smash windows or vandalise monuments.

I guess it's all a bit irrational. Except I've got a list of perfectly rational (to me) reasons for hating them.

Couldn't stand Moyes or his cosy relationship with his side kick but loved his people's club remark which really to this day really gets to them. I'm sure when we really turning the screw deep into our bmd homes as we lift our second consecutive premier league the club will never forget it's roots and second to none away following. Ok getting a bit teary eyed there. Don't know where that came from because I'm not the worlds greatest Evertonian and started life in the st end not boys pen 😅

While we're on irrational stuff. I've been mocked for this theory but I wonder if anyone on here is on board...

You know when you need an extra 5 a side player? And someone brings a mate.

On the occasions they bring an Evertonian - it's 90% they'll be at least a serviceable player. If they're a red it's a 75% chance they can't kick a ball. If they're a red from somewhere other than Merseyside then it's head in hands time before you reach the pitch. 100% fail rate.

Bulletproof theory.

They attract non football people. If you loved the game, how could you support that lot?

Don't know about the football ability argument Ernie but I've never met an Evertonian who isn't totally committed and knows who they're playing in the next match, whereas some "Liverpudlians" wouldn't know the score in their last game. They're not all like that of course. Have got Red friends and Reds in the family - and they're all totally sound people and loyal supporters. It's just that we don't attract the hangers-on. Never really understood why my dad was a Red and yet I turned out Blue.

Never bought into 'hate' as a worthwhile emotion to expend negative energy on towards anyone or anything.

I prefer a much healthier option to things and people I find distasteful.

Indifference.

Pisses them off a whole lot more.

Nobody has mentioned Shankly as the father of 'this' ("There's two great teams in Liverpool - Liverpool and Liverpool Reserves", etc.), encouraging the likes of Emlyn Hughes to sprout off.

Steve(#59),

I can't remember when it was made but I remember something similar being said about Everton in the Wednesday Play, "The Golden Vision".

It might be interesting to compare who said what first. In the play it was said;"I support both teams" and after looks of disbelief, "Everton and Everton Reserves".

There was also, "Who played for Everton one week and Liverpool the next but no transfer fee was involved? St Martin's Band!"

Ray @ 57; you're just an awkward arse...I'm the same. My conversion came about at accident. Every Boxing Day all the Males of the mixed extended (very mixed, blue, red, orange green and not in the proportions some might imagine) family would go to the match...whoever it was to get out from under the feet of the women and littler kids.

One year I was deemed old enough and it was at Goodison, so we all piled on to the 500 bus and off we went, I was hooked from then on - thank God.

I think the comedian in the History of Everton video might have said something similar before Shankly on the history of Everton video?

It was just scouse humour, and a sign of the times. At least 20 years later, when we played Liverpool in the first-ever all-Merseyside Cup Final at Wembley, the scouse joke then was, "The last person out of the city, turn the lights off". So this hatred is just a product of modern life, imo.

"So this hatred is just a product of modern life."

Er... No. What weird sort of attempted deflection is that?

For a significant number, it clearly goes back to at least 1985 – 35 years of "modern life"?? – while for others (read the thread) it goes back a helluva a lot earlier.

But for a number on here who seem to need to bring them into the discussion on many other [Everton only] threads... well, that's what just consolidates the hate for me!

Rivalry is part of parcel of supporting a football team. It's what it's about. You want your team to beat their team right. And of course the rivalry is greatest with your local neighbours, the people you work with, drink with and even in some cases live with.
Hatred is a strong word but I find it usually is about the club or the anonymous supporters en masse rather than the people we actually know personally. With those it's normally about taking the piss or getting the piss taken.
Because guess what when you get down to an individual level they're just the same whoever they support. Your average cross section of decent people, optimists, pessimists, know it alls, arseholes and every other human type.
They just support a different tribe and wear different colours.

Steve (59), that saying “Everton and Everton Reserves”, or “Liverpool and Liverpool Reserves” was very, very common when I was growing up in the 1940s, long before Shankly got his mouth around it.

Same as the saying “I'm going to change and become a Liverpudlian just before I snuff it, because I'd rather a Red nose died than an Evertonian.”

Our kid has the phrase.

We have really good mates who support Liverpool (and from the surrounding area) and he calls them Liverpudlians.

Then there are those who have no idea and the type we are all moaning about on here and he calls them Kopites.

You can have a joke, a conversation with a Liverpudlian but you just need to walk away from a Kopite.

Examples of the former - the one who has emigrated to Canada and FB to say well done and the other who texted to say Klopp had been in touch with Megan and Harry to ask what life is like when you have given up on retaining titles. You would never get that from a Kopite.

BTW - everyone catch that the VAR review for the penalty last week was not about whether it was a pen, but whether TAA should have got a red. And that was our very dear friend Clottenberk who asked the question of the ref.

Things have drastically changed in how the rivalry has turned to hate, I remember as a teenager (long time ago) I would go to Anfield with a couple of red supporting mates and they would come to Goodison. Now we all knew were our loyalties lay but it never ever got to the stage it has now. I am not saying I went to many of their games but I went to a few, and because as Liverpool supporters they were more interested in how their own players did, they would ask me as a neutral who my MOTM was. Before Covid we would all still meet up for a drink and the discussion was 90% football, yes there was mickey taking but it was friends enjoying talking about a game we love.

I think when MOTD came along thats when the nastiness started, you had ex players making comments and often like now just to get a reaction.

This world famous wit and thoughtful banners ( Steau Bucharest' every home game jeez ) it stretches back a long way as long as things go their way. I remember as a very young lad coming out the Annie road end when we took another big step to the title in 69 two nil win, Mass brawls them attacking efc fans but as you can imagine them getting as good as they gave. So maybe Shankley started all this self righteous attitude. They are a strange breed.

Growing up in a rs family probably made it easier for me to dislike them. I was always taunted for being the only Blue in the family, and was constantly offered trips to Mordor (which I refused) to “open my eyes”.

Growing up in Liverpool during the 60's and early 70's it was easy to be an Evertonian as we were the more successful team but once they started winning trophies, and we went into decline, things started to change. They became arrogant gobshites and it started after that bent twat Emlyn Hughes started his “Liverpool are magic, Everton . ” shite. That really poisoned things.

I started watching Everton in 65 and I never had a problem with their fans in fact a workmate had a season ticket and he went with another bloke he knew one Saturday the other bloke couldn't go so he gave him his season ticket. He asked me If I wanted to go it must have been 73 because it was v Arsenal and Bally was playing so I jumped at the chance and Arsenal won 2-0 so I was dead chuffed.
I used to have banter with their supporters at Derby matches but like everyone alludes to the ban on English teams (why was it not just Liverpool) after Heysel started the pot bubbling with me.

When the first Yank owners almost killed the club and it was on the verge of folding, as Lawrenson kept harping on about on the BBC but never mentioned Liverpool he only said a "top" club is going under very shortly, yet like a bad smell they resurfaced God I wish they'd gone bust.

Now the bandwagon jumpers feel the need to shout and bawl everyone down at every opportunity without probably ever setting foot in Mordor make my hackles rise and I know why I HATE them.

The great Bill Shankley would have been proud of Bob Paisley's achievements, and those of Kenny D and G Houlier etc.. However, he'd have been ashamed of much of what LFC stands for these days, the behaviour of many of their 'supporters', and the way the club treated its neighbours in the streets around Anfield. Given the choice, I fancy he'd rather watch Everton these days; after all, the club showed him much kindness and respect after his retirement and LFC's (perhaps understandable) need to keep him at arm's length for the sake of his successor(s).

There was a time when you supported red or blue but had a healthy respect for each other. Banter has always been the weapon of war, but always used with humour, never hate.

Where did the nastiness originate? Solely out of Anfield. It stemmed from a group of thugs in their teams: Hughes, Smith, Case, Souness and Gerard, who not only were dirty players but arrogant and distasteful people. Their fans copied them then and, just like a fighter at the weigh-in, they would goad...

Nowadays, it's despicable the sight of grown men and women uttering filthy abuse and spittle from their mouths. They hate us. I despise them for that but I would never hate, they don't deserve that consideration.

They are arrogant, abusive and vindictive. They hate us with a vengeance borne of their self-righteous sense of entitlement, the only cure for them is 10 years of no consequence games, relegation and a few humbling seasons. I hope it's started...

There was a very appropriate line in Boys from the Black Stuff: "I wouldn't be you." Sums up the difference.

I feel a bit of an idiot already spending as much time as I do following a game. A game after all is just that, a nonsense. Made up fun. I think attributing a word like 'hate' to the people who follow different teams within the game is evidence either of misuse of the word, or of the fact something has gone badly wrong.

Hi Brian H [67],

I think that your friends were the same as mine, we went to games together. The 'Blues' would go to Anfield hoping that Arsenal would win, and the 'Reds' would visit Goodison hoping for a Spurs victory. The lads I went with were mainly schoolboy friends who grew up together and remained friends for a great deal of our adult lives.

At Anfield, we would stand on the Kop, those old enough to remember will confirm that there was a passageway half-way up the Kop that ran from the Kemlyn Road side to the Boys Pen/Paddock corner. We always stood on the upper level of that divide. When we went to Goodison, we stood behind the Park End goal, because of it housing the nearest turnstile.

Despite what you may read, it really was a friendly environment, of course there was a rivalry but nothing like that of today, and I'm just glad that I was part of it.

Hi Brian M [68],

You will no doubt have read my post to Brian H, I was at the game you refer to, but I was in my customary place on the Kop. I must say that I can't remember any mention of it through either the TV/Radio or newspaper reports. It's my belief that the Heysel affair and the subsequent banning of English clubs from competing in Europe played a massive part in the present toxic situation.

As a teenager in the sixties, I would go to Anfield and sit in the Kemlyn Road Stand when my Red father's mate couldn't make matches due to working shifts. Everybody around knew that I was a Blue and would give me merciless stick but I accepted it, even as a sensitive kid, because I knew it was good-humoured banter.

However, I'm afraid my tolerance of them evaporated after the ramifications of Heysel, compounded by that eff'in' Steau flag on the Kop which only served to aggravate our misery at losing out on success, through no fault of our own, at the highest point in our history.

I'm 67 now and hopefully wiser. I realise I should know better but, even though I've Red friends and family who are truly lovely people, I simply can't stand LFC any more. I wouldn't go as far as to use the word "hate" but the over-abundance of red pundits on radio and TV, so many "plastic" fans, obliging refereeing over the years, favouritism from the authorities etc, etc does nothing to endear them to me.

Yes, I've turned into a "Bitter". It's all rather sad considering we share a common city.

John,

I would agree, It's been a slow burn though. In 1985, not that many Blues were blaming Liverpool in the manner that younger Blues would expect. We still had Kendall, we'd just signed Lineker, we still had loads to play for.

It was only with hindsight, years later, that we could trace Kendall's departure and the club's subsequent failure to build upon his legacy, that we started to apportion blame.

I'm a huge fan of Howard, as are we all, but him saying his departure was solely down to the ban is a little convenient. I think if Barcelona had firmed up their interest in him, he'd have gone whether we had the European Cup to play for or not.

Kevin. Their half-arsed apology years later to Juventus in a Champions League game added fuel to the fire. No wonder the Juve fans turned their back on the gesture of a wreath in the centre circle.

The common theme in all this is it's easy to be gracious when winning. Case in point: the Milk Cup Final and chants of 'Merseyside, Merseyside. All very noble because of Thatcher etc but their attitude soon changed a year later when we beat them three times in one season on verge of dominating for years to come.

I or we sound like we are living in the past, that's why I'm made up with what's happening now. The stadium alone is a massive statement and is already putting their noses out of joint at the mere thought of it.

Kevin. You are right absolutely about the ban. We didn't grasp the enormity of it because we had just signed Lineker and Kendall was still here plus only for a Southall injury we would of easily win that double.

The perfect storm started when Harvey took over (too nice but great coach) then Sky and eventually the greatest blue ever got his paws into us. Thus endeth the notion of Everton as a force in any way.

Kevin 73

It's the essence of being a football fan. Is it hatred? Well it's definitely a strong emotion.

It's rooted in identity. Supporting a football team reinforces identity. The sad fact is football is more enjoyable because Liverpool exist. If they didn't we'd have to find someone else to hate.

Brian,

Yes, it's taken 35 years but here we come.

Graham,

Yes, I agree identity is what gives the game its booster rockets. But even then if that turns into hate I think it's a sign you've gone down the wrong path.

Kevin

I think hatred is the wrong word because if you reads the comments on here you'll see it's not a personal thing. Most have mates who are Liverpudlians, do they hate them? No of course not.

Don't want to sound too much up my own arse but Freud described it as the uncanny. The need for rivalry that reveals something about ourselves and threatens our territory. That rivalry reinforces our own sense of identity against that rival. It's actually fairly healthy if it doesn't lead to physical consequences.

It's either that or Freud knows nothing and they are actually a bunch of cheating, self pitying, hypocritical wankers after all!

We need to stop excuse making over Heysel. It ignores the unassailable fact the resultant conditions were the same for all – the bald truth is we lacked the wit and intelligence to adapt as others did and fell apart as a result.

The heinous event and the accompanying lies have damned the Red Shite for all eternity. No matter how many baubles fall their way, the Mark of Cain shadows every mention of their name.

Trying to disguise our ineptness by abusing an incident beyond the sphere of togger is dreadful.

Hi Graham [80] I was 100% with you until your remark,

"The sad fact is football is more enjoyable because Liverpool exist. If they didn't we'd have to find someone else to hate."

In my opinion, our love of football is a reason for fans to be drawn together, I also believe that there are fans now who have been raised to hate Liverpool, they don't even know why they should do so, because they weren't born when the incidents we're discussing took place.

I remember when we could go to places like Burnley's Turf Moor and enjoy a pre-match drink and banter with the Burnley fans. In later years, it was replaced with "There's a Scouser in the bar" and all hell would break out.

I've used Burnley as an example but it was true of every away game. The hooligan element seems to have all but vanished, but as for the Everton - Liverpool attitude, it has over the years worsened, and I find that disappointing. I don't attend away matches now so maybe things aren't quite how I imagine.

My dislike for many RS supporters comes from living away from the North West of England since for over years.

In time spent serving the forces and now 18 years of working in that London, the majority of them that I have met couldn't find the city on a map and they are by far the most insufferable football supporters and in many cases people in general I've ever met.

Hate is a very strong word but hate them I do. They can be ok one to one and some of my closest friends are reds but they are quite simply hideous as a collective fan base. That club and its self righteous disgustingness makes me sick.

Their stunt bringing Van Dijk to the match and their plans to all celebrate with him just sums them up. Deluded, entitled pricks.

Their lack of remorse and subsequent air brushing of Heysel still makes my blood boil.

Beating them on Saturday has been the highlight of the decade for me. At 2-0 I left my house, switched off my phone and went for a 15 minute walk. After 15 mins had elapsed, I switched my phone back on, looked at the final score and shed a little tear. Not just for me but for my 15 years old son who has doggedly and loyaly stuck by Everton through thin and thinner since he was born. The merciless stick he has had to endure from kids in his school who have never ever set foot inside Anfield over the years made victory all the sweeter.

The hypocrisy of that club draws people to hate them.

Always the victim, its never thier fault.

John Mac snr ref 017

Hi John sorry to be pedantic but I know you are a man of precision, Ross Jack did indeed only make one appearance but it was March 1979

Lee Hawkins ref 070

The Arsenal game you were referring too I believe was 1974 and Arsenal won 3-1, it was Alan Balls first return to Merseyside after his sale in December 1971, he scored two that day. I remember it well as I went to the game but only because they were giving out vouchers for the derby. I went with some mates and paid in at the Anfield Rd end, they all went straight back out of the exit gate with their voucher but I decided to stay and watched the match.

Hi Mike [88] you are absolutely correct, his debut was away to Middlesbrough on March 6th 1979, you'll have to remind me of what I wrote. You must also know that I will use age as an excuse.

Hi again Mike [88] you were right about the date, and I was right about my excuse. It's my 'Get out of Gaol Free' card.

John Sr. #90, nice try, but sorry, nobody's buying that excuse given that you're sharper than about 90% of TW's regular denizens.

Hi Mike. G. [91] you've got me worried now, it seems I'll need a new excuse, but what's the use, I'll probably forget it. I trust that you and yours are keeping safe.

I see Ian St. John died. Former footballers seem to be dropping like flies recently. Dai Davies, Glenn Roeder etc.. it's making me feel old.

I didn't really hate Bill Shankly or St John or even 'Big Ron', in olden days they were part of the rich tapestry of Merseyside football.

By the way, can anyone else remember the mini-riot when a Bluenose on stage sang,

"If you ever go across the sea to Ireland
even at the closing of the day,
be sure to take with you Bill Shankly
and drown the bastard in the Galway Bay."

Hee, hee, oh what fun!

I was part of Malachy's YMCA coach that night.

In my previous comment I should have mentioned the venue was a huge pub in Salford and both sets of fans were returning from away games.

Six ! 6 times laa!