"Liverpool have undeniably played a part in the formation of the modern Blue ... And underwriting the whole relationship, simple hate. A pure and undiluted loathing that has become an indelible part of the Blue psyche. Loathing not of individuals, although that can sometimes be the case, but of the body, the great heaving Kopite mass.
"While the Premier League and Sky will happily promote rivalries, you are meant to wear them lightly. A kind of ‘banter lolz' sort of rivalry. In short, you're not meant to fucking hate them.
"But why not? As long as it doesn't revisit the bad old days of football's violent past, there's little wrong with loathing the neighbours."
» Read the full article at Jim Keoghan
Reader Comments (94)
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1 Posted 20/02/2021 at 15:45:20
2 Posted 20/02/2021 at 15:48:36
3 Posted 20/02/2021 at 15:51:49
4 Posted 20/02/2021 at 16:15:42
Not only have they blighted my life as a football supporter their litany of criminality has portrayed the city in a dreadful light fueling the scouse scally stereotype far more than crap tv series produced in the area
I might add it isn't individuals most are ordinary, reasonable folk one to one it is the heinous entity they become when together.
The only saving grace is the entire country and probably most parts of Europe feel the same.
5 Posted 20/02/2021 at 16:25:06
Matters since for EFC, in the scale of time have not kicked on but now in this era, Im hopeful of better days for Everton Football Club.
But my loathing of the RS, will go into eternity.
6 Posted 20/02/2021 at 16:55:22
As you say though, the rest of the country are finally realising what gobshites they are
7 Posted 20/02/2021 at 22:17:57
Once we achieve that, the RS will not matter to us. They shouldnt matter now, but their supporters are such ungracious winners and bad losers that its impossible for them not to matter.
For me, whenever weve been top dog, Ive seldom had a passing thought for the RS, because they lay low and stay quiet. Thats all that we want.
8 Posted 20/02/2021 at 23:23:03
9 Posted 21/02/2021 at 05:46:58
I am as passionate an Evertonian as the rest of you (and I write this after the first win at Anfield in 22 years. I was at Uni when Kevin Campbell scored the winner, and surrounded by Mancs as I wore my blue top, with a bag of Everton mints watching the 1995 FA Cup Final). No room for hate. Ever. COYB, and let's win at Anfield next year!
10 Posted 21/02/2021 at 19:20:26
11 Posted 21/02/2021 at 19:57:04
12 Posted 21/02/2021 at 20:04:55
13 Posted 21/02/2021 at 20:06:09
The author is right again, even if we win plenty of silverware for the next twenty years we will hate them,Ill be in the “ Naughty Corner” in Heaven twice a year for some of that time if it happens but God will understand, he will say to me “ Youre right really to hate them, but rules are rules” and give me a smile.
14 Posted 21/02/2021 at 20:18:43
15 Posted 21/02/2021 at 20:22:58
The majority of them love us for two weeks of the year only.
Evertonians have backed them unconditionally for 30 years in thier fight.Rightly so.
The ones that matter know that.
The others thank us then quickly revert to hating us.
16 Posted 21/02/2021 at 20:30:08
17 Posted 21/02/2021 at 20:43:23
Tom Gardner failed to make Liverpool's first team and played once for Everton, partnering Eddie Wainwright in the home League game against Wolves in October 1947, when 46,000 fans saw the 1-1 draw. I think that you must be proud to know that he was considered good enough by both teams, and that he was never on the losing side for the 'Blues' not many can say that, the only one I can recall is Ross Jack, he scored a goal in his one appearance against Middlesbrough away in a 2-1 win, in March 1967.
18 Posted 21/02/2021 at 21:11:38
The story is that, after the war, he was a goalkeeper in the Everton system. No idea how it worked then. In the 60s it was the Youth, B Team, A Team, Reserves, then the First Team. Not sure how far he progressed, but Everton wanted to keep him on.
In those long lost days, they were required to ask the parents first. Nana and Grandad apparently said no, unequivocally, as it was not a well-renumerated job in those days, Dad had no idea, and just thought Everton were letting him go. Mid-60s they told him. Can't imagine how that must have felt!
19 Posted 21/02/2021 at 21:23:44
20 Posted 21/02/2021 at 21:31:03
21 Posted 21/02/2021 at 21:46:04
23 Posted 21/02/2021 at 21:51:53
I was just thinking. It is irrational for a man of my age to hate a football club. I genuinely try to see the best in people, give them the benefit of the doubt. With this breed, I can't do that.
Dont get me wrong. I have got red mates who have been on to congratulate and say we were the better side. All of them season ticket holders.
Sadly, they are a tiny minority of thier fans. They hate us and in return we hate them.
24 Posted 21/02/2021 at 22:20:42
25 Posted 21/02/2021 at 22:23:04
Non scouser fans hating them makes little sense to me.
26 Posted 21/02/2021 at 22:28:03
27 Posted 21/02/2021 at 22:33:16
Feck right off, you uber capitalist behemoth, win by any means, humility free zone, Euro League power-grabbing, offended by everything, ashamed of nothing, vile and deceitful shower. The mephistophelian manifestation of all that is wrong with modern football and modern football fans.
You are undeserving of my hate.
28 Posted 22/02/2021 at 12:39:56
29 Posted 22/02/2021 at 22:24:53
30 Posted 22/02/2021 at 23:02:32
31 Posted 22/02/2021 at 00:05:21
The early 60s were a bit easier but when the knobheads like Hughes came on the scene things slowly started to change.
Their European success giving the worldwide exposure only inflamed their entitlement
We now have an entire generation in the City who have never been to a game as half their season tickets are owned by Thomas Cook!
Im lucky were all Blues, apart from one red cousin, and nobody talks to him!
As stated by others collectively, or even in a group of two, they are arseholes. Individually theyre still pricks!
32 Posted 23/02/2021 at 00:15:44
33 Posted 23/02/2021 at 00:55:15
Funds allowing I used to to with red mates to fill a Saturday afternoon and can reel off the names even now...but looking back, they never went to Goodison hardly at all...hmm?
There was an old saying, so old I can't remember how old, which summed them up in a not quite nasty, but deadly accurate warts and all, play on the word tell ...'you can always tell a kopite - but not much.' - and its true on both counts.
I think they only pretended to buy into the veiled anti Thatcher 'Merseyside' of the League Cup Final, there may have been elements of what is called 'Head-Pattery' in it
A South African I met once described it as...you're only biased against the rs if you hate them more than you should...only he didn't mean biased and the colour wasn't red.
But as Dave said, it isn't the individual family and friends, twice a year. It's the whole collective (why does the words Borg and Cult come to mind?) every day of the year.
Apropos of nothing, back in the day some sections of them used to get on 'well'...cross Pennine, reciprocal trips to pubs and social clubs 'well' with Leeds fans - by their friends shall ye know them.
Oh and I don't know about you, but you'll struggle to find a red item bigger than a tomato in my house...and I don't eat those either and anything thing they did or have sponsored, I immediately stopped used and never used again.
But I'm not really bitter, just wise to their perfidiousness.
34 Posted 23/02/2021 at 01:19:05
I've had Blues from Canada, NZ, Turkey, Bakofthevanistan etc messaging "made up, at last, the bastards" after the match
However, I've had lots more from mates who support Southend, West Ham, Rotherham, Reading, Arsenal, Newcastle et al who are so pleased for us, adding they can't stand the entitled f'ers
They aren't living alongside the nasty neighbours (can't get a ticket for dem tourists!) but, still, have sussed them out
Kopites have no idea ( cos of the red-dominated "meeja") how other real fans despise their club and their supporters
35 Posted 23/02/2021 at 02:25:55
36 Posted 23/02/2021 at 02:28:18
37 Posted 23/02/2021 at 03:28:30
I played semipro for years with a former Birmingham hooligan who would occasionally lift his shirt and show off the stab wound scars he got from a Villa fan back in the '80s.
Just wondered if any of you carry similar scars.
38 Posted 23/02/2021 at 08:06:36
39 Posted 23/02/2021 at 08:37:06
I heard it carried on into town and in a few pubs there.
Certainly been more antagonistic at the actual games after segregation was brought in. Few more issues on the walks home too
Must admit though, personally, never seen or heard of anything organised
40 Posted 23/02/2021 at 14:16:51
41 Posted 23/02/2021 at 15:15:31
42 Posted 23/02/2021 at 19:43:11
They can take their brand and fuck right off.
43 Posted 25/02/2021 at 09:33:51
I personally detest the club, primarily because they have never shown any humility for Heysel, not just for depriving a fine Everton team of the chance to become Champions of Europe but for 39 innocent football fans for dying on their watch.
I laugh at the blind arrogance and misplaced faith. Their share owners don't give a fuck about anything except the top line re treatment of the local community around Anfield when looking to free up land to extend their shithole.
I, like many, have lots of friends and associates who follow Liverpool and, at the risk of a sound bite, only a couple of handfuls get what it is about. The rest are just riding the train til they get to their stop.
44 Posted 25/02/2021 at 10:06:44
Fortunately a Man Utd friend has provided me with the antidote - laughter!
45 Posted 25/02/2021 at 10:38:59
Did you know in a stadium with a capacity with 54K+, they only have 27K season ticket holders, yet they keep on harping on about have a huge season ticket waiting list. The reason is very simple, out of the other 27K tickets, there are thousands of tickets that are sold as part of a package. Various travel companies sell them in a package which includes a weekend stay in Liverpool, its why all the hotels in the city are fully booked whenever they play at home. RS fans can also travel on a day trip from all over the country which also includes a ticket. The club know that by selling tickets on a match by match basis, they will generate a lot more money than if that ticket is sold as “A Season Ticket”
Quite simply, that club doesnt give a monkeys about local fans, never have done, never will. I could tell you some stories about how they treat local fans, but thats for another day!
46 Posted 25/02/2021 at 10:54:08
Thats a staggering stat about the season tickets. Whenever I got into a debate with a local RS fan, I always asked them whether they went to the match. The answer was invariably No, theres no tickets available. I hadnt ever realised the reason why.
A few years ago there was some social media stuff circulating involving local supporters banging on about the huge number of people at the match interested only in taking selfies, and making sure they didnt lose any of their many bags of club merchandise. Saying they werent real supporters.
I thought at the time it was a bit mean spirited but I hadnt envisaged the extent of it.
Im a bit surprised they managed to scrape together the small numbers allowed in for a short period pre Christmas
47 Posted 25/02/2021 at 11:18:58
48 Posted 25/02/2021 at 11:32:32
49 Posted 25/02/2021 at 11:41:39
50 Posted 25/02/2021 at 11:42:58
Have they ever lost a game because the opposition were better on the day?
51 Posted 25/02/2021 at 11:51:14
52 Posted 25/02/2021 at 12:16:05
53 Posted 25/02/2021 at 12:33:25
54 Posted 25/02/2021 at 12:35:42
But I've got red mates, red family, red colleagues. Most of them are okay. I don't feel the need to key cars, smash windows or vandalise monuments.
I guess it's all a bit irrational. Except I've got a list of perfectly rational (to me) reasons for hating them.
55 Posted 25/02/2021 at 12:40:55
56 Posted 25/02/2021 at 12:42:48
You know when you need an extra 5 a side player? And someone brings a mate.
On the occasions they bring an Evertonian - it's 90% they'll be at least a serviceable player. If they're a red it's a 75% chance they can't kick a ball. If they're a red from somewhere other than Merseyside then it's head in hands time before you reach the pitch. 100% fail rate.
They attract non football people. If you loved the game, how could you support that lot?
57 Posted 25/02/2021 at 12:58:18
58 Posted 25/02/2021 at 13:20:10
I prefer a much healthier option to things and people I find distasteful.
Pisses them off a whole lot more.
59 Posted 26/02/2021 at 02:12:57
60 Posted 26/02/2021 at 03:53:23
I can't remember when it was made but I remember something similar being said about Everton in the Wednesday Play, "The Golden Vision".
It might be interesting to compare who said what first. In the play it was said;"I support both teams" and after looks of disbelief, "Everton and Everton Reserves".
There was also, "Who played for Everton one week and Liverpool the next but no transfer fee was involved? St Martin's Band!"
61 Posted 26/02/2021 at 08:27:48
One year I was deemed old enough and it was at Goodison, so we all piled on to the 500 bus and off we went, I was hooked from then on - thank God.
62 Posted 26/02/2021 at 08:28:57
It was just scouse humour, and a sign of the times. At least 20 years later, when we played Liverpool in the first-ever all-Merseyside Cup Final at Wembley, the scouse joke then was, "The last person out of the city, turn the lights off". So this hatred is just a product of modern life, imo.
63 Posted 26/02/2021 at 09:25:02
Er... No. What weird sort of attempted deflection is that?
For a significant number, it clearly goes back to at least 1985 – 35 years of "modern life"?? – while for others (read the thread) it goes back a helluva a lot earlier.
But for a number on here who seem to need to bring them into the discussion on many other [Everton only] threads... well, that's what just consolidates the hate for me!
64 Posted 26/02/2021 at 09:53:46
Hatred is a strong word but I find it usually is about the club or the anonymous supporters en masse rather than the people we actually know personally. With those its normally about taking the piss or getting the piss taken.
Because guess what when you get down to an individual level theyre just the same whoever they support. Your average cross section of decent people, optimists, pessimists, know it alls, arseholes and every other human type.
They just support a different tribe and wear different colours.
65 Posted 26/02/2021 at 10:00:08
Same as the saying “I'm going to change and become a Liverpudlian just before I snuff it, because I'd rather a Red nose died than an Evertonian.”
66 Posted 26/02/2021 at 10:15:29
We have really good mates who support Liverpool (and from the surrounding area) and he calls them Liverpudlians.
Then there are those who have no idea and the type we are all moaning about on here and he calls them Kopites.
You can have a joke, a conversation with a Liverpudlian but you just need to walk away from a Kopite.
Examples of the former - the one who has emigrated to Canada and FB to say well done and the other who texted to say Klopp had been in touch with Megan and Harry to ask what life is like when you have given up on retaining titles. You would never get that from a Kopite.
BTW - everyone catch that the VAR review for the penalty last week was not about whether it was a pen, but whether TAA should have got a red. And that was our very dear friend Clottenberk who asked the question of the ref.
67 Posted 26/02/2021 at 11:04:25
I think when MOTD came along thats when the nastiness started, you had ex players making comments and often like now just to get a reaction.
68 Posted 26/02/2021 at 11:21:06
69 Posted 26/02/2021 at 11:32:02
Growing up in Liverpool during the 60s and early 70s it was easy to be an Evertonian as we were the more successful team but once they started winning trophies, and we went into decline, things started to change. They became arrogant gobshites and it started after that bent twat Emlyn Hughes started his “Liverpool are magic, Everton . ” shite. That really poisoned things.
70 Posted 26/02/2021 at 11:44:25
I used to have banter with their supporters at Derby matches but like everyone alludes to the ban on English teams (why was it not just Liverpool) after Heysel started the pot bubbling with me.
When the first Yank owners almost killed the club and it was on the verge of folding, as Lawrenson kept harping on about on the BBC but never mentioned Liverpool he only said a "top" club is going under very shortly, yet like a bad smell they resurfaced God I wish they'd gone bust.
Now the bandwagon jumpers feel the need to shout and bawl everyone down at every opportunity without probably ever setting foot in Mordor make my hackles rise and I know why I HATE them.
71 Posted 26/02/2021 at 11:46:24
72 Posted 26/02/2021 at 12:16:30
Where did the nastiness originate? Solely out of Anfield. It stemmed from a group of thugs in their teams: Hughes, Smith, Case, Souness and Gerard, who not only were dirty players but arrogant and distasteful people. Their fans copied them then and, just like a fighter at the weigh-in, they would goad...
Nowadays, it's despicable the sight of grown men and women uttering filthy abuse and spittle from their mouths. They hate us. I despise them for that but I would never hate, they don't deserve that consideration.
They are arrogant, abusive and vindictive. They hate us with a vengeance borne of their self-righteous sense of entitlement, the only cure for them is 10 years of no consequence games, relegation and a few humbling seasons. I hope it's started...
There was a very appropriate line in Boys from the Black Stuff: "I wouldn't be you." Sums up the difference.
73 Posted 26/02/2021 at 12:17:38
74 Posted 26/02/2021 at 12:21:37
I think that your friends were the same as mine, we went to games together. The 'Blues' would go to Anfield hoping that Arsenal would win, and the 'Reds' would visit Goodison hoping for a Spurs victory. The lads I went with were mainly schoolboy friends who grew up together and remained friends for a great deal of our adult lives.
At Anfield, we would stand on the Kop, those old enough to remember will confirm that there was a passageway half-way up the Kop that ran from the Kemlyn Road side to the Boys Pen/Paddock corner. We always stood on the upper level of that divide. When we went to Goodison, we stood behind the Park End goal, because of it housing the nearest turnstile.
Despite what you may read, it really was a friendly environment, of course there was a rivalry but nothing like that of today, and I'm just glad that I was part of it.
Hi Brian M ,
You will no doubt have read my post to Brian H, I was at the game you refer to, but I was in my customary place on the Kop. I must say that I can't remember any mention of it through either the TV/Radio or newspaper reports. It's my belief that the Heysel affair and the subsequent banning of English clubs from competing in Europe played a massive part in the present toxic situation.
75 Posted 26/02/2021 at 12:28:22
However, I'm afraid my tolerance of them evaporated after the ramifications of Heysel, compounded by that eff'in' Steau flag on the Kop which only served to aggravate our misery at losing out on success, through no fault of our own, at the highest point in our history.
I'm 67 now and hopefully wiser. I realise I should know better but, even though I've Red friends and family who are truly lovely people, I simply can't stand LFC any more. I wouldn't go as far as to use the word "hate" but the over-abundance of red pundits on radio and TV, so many "plastic" fans, obliging refereeing over the years, favouritism from the authorities etc, etc does nothing to endear them to me.
Yes, I've turned into a "Bitter". It's all rather sad considering we share a common city.
76 Posted 26/02/2021 at 12:30:30
I would agree, It's been a slow burn though. In 1985, not that many Blues were blaming Liverpool in the manner that younger Blues would expect. We still had Kendall, we'd just signed Lineker, we still had loads to play for.
It was only with hindsight, years later, that we could trace Kendall's departure and the club's subsequent failure to build upon his legacy, that we started to apportion blame.
I'm a huge fan of Howard, as are we all, but him saying his departure was solely down to the ban is a little convenient. I think if Barcelona had firmed up their interest in him, he'd have gone whether we had the European Cup to play for or not.
77 Posted 26/02/2021 at 12:39:58
The common theme in all this is it's easy to be gracious when winning. Case in point: the Milk Cup Final and chants of 'Merseyside, Merseyside. All very noble because of Thatcher etc but their attitude soon changed a year later when we beat them three times in one season on verge of dominating for years to come.
I or we sound like we are living in the past, that's why I'm made up with what's happening now. The stadium alone is a massive statement and is already putting their noses out of joint at the mere thought of it.
79 Posted 26/02/2021 at 12:47:24
The perfect storm started when Harvey took over (too nice but great coach) then Sky and eventually the greatest blue ever got his paws into us. Thus endeth the notion of Everton as a force in any way.
80 Posted 26/02/2021 at 12:55:45
Its the essence of being a football fan. Is it hatred? Well its definitely a strong emotion.
Its rooted in identity. Supporting a football team reinforces identity. The sad fact is football is more enjoyable because Liverpool exist. If they didnt wed have to find someone else to hate.
81 Posted 26/02/2021 at 13:11:33
Yes, it's taken 35 years but here we come.
Yes, I agree identity is what gives the game its booster rockets. But even then if that turns into hate I think it's a sign you've gone down the wrong path.
82 Posted 26/02/2021 at 13:48:08
I think hatred is the wrong word because if you reads the comments on here youll see its not a personal thing. Most have mates who are Liverpudlians, do they hate them? No of course not.
Dont want to sound too much up my own arse but Freud described it as the uncanny. The need for rivalry that reveals something about ourselves and threatens our territory. That rivalry reinforces our own sense of identity against that rival. Its actually fairly healthy if it doesnt lead to physical consequences.
Its either that or Freud knows nothing and they are actually a bunch of cheating, self pitying, hypocritical wankers after all!
83 Posted 26/02/2021 at 13:52:02
The heinous event and the accompanying lies have damned the Red Shite for all eternity. No matter how many baubles fall their way, the Mark of Cain shadows every mention of their name.
Trying to disguise our ineptness by abusing an incident beyond the sphere of togger is dreadful.
84 Posted 26/02/2021 at 13:54:36
"The sad fact is football is more enjoyable because Liverpool exist. If they didn't we'd have to find someone else to hate."
In my opinion, our love of football is a reason for fans to be drawn together, I also believe that there are fans now who have been raised to hate Liverpool, they don't even know why they should do so, because they weren't born when the incidents we're discussing took place.
I remember when we could go to places like Burnley's Turf Moor and enjoy a pre-match drink and banter with the Burnley fans. In later years, it was replaced with "There's a Scouser in the bar" and all hell would break out.
I've used Burnley as an example but it was true of every away game. The hooligan element seems to have all but vanished, but as for the Everton - Liverpool attitude, it has over the years worsened, and I find that disappointing. I don't attend away matches now so maybe things aren't quite how I imagine.
85 Posted 26/02/2021 at 14:31:13
In time spent serving the forces and now 18 years of working in that London, the majority of them that I have met couldn't find the city on a map and they are by far the most insufferable football supporters and in many cases people in general I've ever met.
86 Posted 26/02/2021 at 15:04:00
Their stunt bringing Van Dijk to the match and their plans to all celebrate with him just sums them up. Deluded, entitled pricks.
Their lack of remorse and subsequent air brushing of Heysel still makes my blood boil.
Beating them on Saturday has been the highlight of the decade for me. At 2-0 I left my house, switched off my phone and went for a 15 minute walk. After 15 mins had elapsed, I switched my phone back on, looked at the final score and shed a little tear. Not just for me but for my 15 years old son who has doggedly and loyaly stuck by Everton through thin and thinner since he was born. The merciless stick he has had to endure from kids in his school who have never ever set foot inside Anfield over the years made victory all the sweeter.
87 Posted 26/02/2021 at 15:36:45
Always the victim, its never thier fault.
88 Posted 26/02/2021 at 16:05:18
Hi John sorry to be pedantic but I know you are a man of precision, Ross Jack did indeed only make one appearance but it was March 1979
Lee Hawkins ref 070
The Arsenal game you were referring too I believe was 1974 and Arsenal won 3-1, it was Alan Balls first return to Merseyside after his sale in December 1971, he scored two that day. I remember it well as I went to the game but only because they were giving out vouchers for the derby. I went with some mates and paid in at the Anfield Rd end, they all went straight back out of the exit gate with their voucher but I decided to stay and watched the match.
89 Posted 26/02/2021 at 16:17:28
90 Posted 26/02/2021 at 17:07:58
91 Posted 26/02/2021 at 17:30:11
92 Posted 26/02/2021 at 18:34:17
94 Posted 02/03/2021 at 10:47:09
95 Posted 02/03/2021 at 21:28:35
By the way, can anyone else remember the mini-riot when a Bluenose on stage sang,
"If you ever go across the sea to Ireland
even at the closing of the day,
be sure to take with you Bill Shankly
and drown the bastard in the Galway Bay."
Hee, hee, oh what fun!
I was part of Malachy's YMCA coach that night.
96 Posted 02/03/2021 at 21:34:02
97 Posted 08/03/2021 at 00:19:34
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