Premier League — Week 17

C'mon Bees!

Suck it Hammers.

Ivan Toney puts Brentford 1-0.

Leicester 1-0. The Stately home has scored.

Be a fan of another club for a day - Leicester.

Wonder if Toney backed himself for first scorer.

Ha ha, fabulous – and West Ham losing.

Well, well, this is a good start:

WH 0-1 Bees, Shite 0-1 Leicester

That's the luxury pick, Will.

I'm backing the Bees.

Brentford 2-0

David Moyes outbound from West Ham Utd at this rate and soon to be back in the Goodison hot seat... 🤪

Bill will be rubbing his hands like Rumplestilskin at the moment.

Looks like you backed right then, Dale.

Nick, please... the horror.

Toney still getting game time for Brentford.

Meanwhile, Siggurdsson still dropped for over a year...

Two different outlooks, one club with "innocent until proven guilty" policy.

Damn...

Shit Faes!

Gigantic stroke of luck means Liverpool are level. Wasn't expecting that!

Everton vs West Ham on 21 January...

I'd give better odds in him being Everton manager on that day than West Ham's!

That Faes is a proper goal-scorer! We should get him.

On a hat-trick now.

Hahaha, two own-goals in 5 minutes for Satan's mob. Must have got a new deal for Xmas.

The Faeses is piling up.

Those quips about the RS and the devil are 100% true.

There was me wondering where all our luck had gone until I realised it hadn't gone far – just to the other side of Stanley Park.

Phew, penalty initially awarded to West Ham, but the VAR over-rules saying the foul was just outside the area.

From the BBC website:

“The two own goals we've seen here tonight are nothing short of comical.

Nunez lifts the ball over Ward. Wout Faes is running back, the ball comes off the post and he's two yards out. There's nothing he can do but put it in the top corner. I don't know what Wout Faes is doing.

Liverpool have had one ruled out because it was offside and two-own goals. Leicester have been excellent.

Liverpool 2-1 Leicester
I think Liverpool have used up their luck for a bit.“

The luckiest poxiest team in any sport in any universe anywhere ever. Hahaha!

Fran, West Ham currently below us with a game more played. Why would we possibly want Moyes?

Post of the day, Will. 👍👍👍

It should be illegal to mention Liverpool on ToffeeWeb.

Because he was a rousing success last time, Will?

Will, not saying I want. I'm asking probabilities. I reckon there is a good chance of it happening.

And to be honest, while it's going stale at West Ham, I'd rather hve Moyes in a relegation battle than Lampard.

As a 36-year-old, Moyes remains the most 'successful' manager of the club in my lifetime.

Faes Off!

I can't see West Ham Utd sacking Moyes yet. Karen Brady is always lauding him in The Sun and talked about how they erred in firing him before.

They are like Kenwright, unless relegation seems imminent, they tend to keep with the custodian they have.

Will & Tony,

If West Ham Utd sack Moyes again, it means – after 11 years of sitting on Kenwright's knee at Everton – since leaving, he will have been sacked five times!

And some still want him back!!!

I can see Moyes in charge for the Brighton game.

Can we please stop talking about fecking Moyes, lol? Just thinking of him back at Goodison Park is giving me nightmares.

Get over it. He is shit!!!

No Moyes...

No Phenomenal Bob either.

Been there, done that, and don't want a repeat.

West Ham fans streaming out of the stadium. Still 6 minutes plus added time to go. They look really concerned.

6th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 7th, 7th, 6th. That's Moyes's last 7 seasons as manager. Yeah, he did a bloody terrible job.

Paul #38.

You are having a fucking laugh, and just taking the piss. There can be no other explanation for such a ridiculous post.

He also did it with zero money. So stop saying he was crap.

I'm not saying I want him back but, for fuck's sake, look how shit we have become since he left.

Paul, please see my post @37.

You state the finishes years ago under Moyes, there was a lot less competition then with fewer Sky Darling teams.

Incidentally, you missed out 17th. Big Sam was here for one season and got us 8th.

Toney has gone down with an injury to his knee, and looks in absolute agony. Must know he's going to be facing a lengthy ban. Stretcher being called for.

He done a great job for Everton and, looking at Paul's list, sometimes even finished just a little bit higher than our yearly wage bill expected him to finish, Joe.

West Ham would be fools to get rid of David Moyes because he always finds a way to get his team into the top half of the table. Looking at their history, it's not like they have ever expected to win honours, so I think they've got the perfect manager considering.

Joe #45... see your post #37

Moyes has only been sacked twice... Man Utd & Real Sociedad.

He resigned from Sunderland and his contract came to an end first time around at West Ham who subsequently re-appointed him.

Joe,

I'm not saying I want him back. But I really struggle to understand the hate he gets on here.

Tony @47,

Typically, Moyes sparks a revival around February. I am sure if they stick with him, as you say, they will finish well clear of relegation.

Paul,

I think the "hate" on here is overdone because a lot of people genuinely believe (probably with good reason) that he or Bobby Brown Shoes would be back if Kenwright had his way.

And regardless of what they did or didn't do before, most people don't think they'd be a good fit now. So I think the reaction is more aimed at Kenwright and his disciples, such as Darren, than necessarily being about Moyes.

I would offer the explanation that it was the way he exited the club.

Brentford win 2-0.

Do we now look on tomorrow a a “Free Hit” and really have a go, but risk leaving ourselves open and concede a hat-full?

Or keep it really tight, and play for a draw?

Or a 1-0 defeat, which would mean we stay above West Ham?

Wooohooo! 16th baby!

The high life for a few days!

Fran, even in this crazy world now, it wouldn't happen.

Moyes's "golden" period was at Everton, it's been a decline since. If Moyes had anything to offer over and above Lampard, then West Ham wouldn't be where they are right now.

He did okay to fairly well here for some time, at the time. Now History.

Tony @ 33, that glittering epoch still brings a tear to my eye.

Paul, tonight at least, I'm not seeing hate, just realism.

Disgrace – only 4 minutes added to that game.

I can't believe some of the soft decisions Liverpool get all through the match either. Business as usual.

Rob @53, let's just play intelligently, mate. I think we will and I think Tarkowski and Coady will not be standing off the Haaland Troll Freak.

Calm, organised... and let's just see.

Anyway, we'll be okay, even if we lose by a wide margin. Mid-table and a good FA Cup run will be very nice thank you. We have to dig in and ignore the noise – quite a bit of it from our own ranks, including me.

Tony E, I didn't watch – but not surprised.

Frank is gonna continue to lose.

West Ham will sack Moyes.

At that point, Bill won't be able to resist the temptation to rekindle things.

Everton Football Club have been boring for as long as I can remember, so bringing back a man who has been managing in the top league for about 20 years and hasn't won a single trophy probably isn't the worst idea.

Better to be plucky rather than shite, although, if we were really plucky under Moyes, surely we would have won at least once at Anfield, or Arsenal, or at Chelsea or Old Trafford, in 44 league games over those 11 years?

Myths are created by conmen and I personally think "plucky little Everton" was a complete myth when I judge Moyes's record with our wage bill.

Will @59, you and I know: they are the Devil's own.

We must rely on Higher Powers, even if they work through weakness and take a bit longer than you might hope.

Tony H,

It will be an interesting battle with Haaland. Not seen anyone knock him around a bit yet... :-)

Tony,

I agree it's not anybody's choice if we had a free hand. But, in the deadly vice we find ourselves in, I'd be delighted if we had Moyes going into the January window.

He'd keep us up. It's as simple as that.

Tony, many disagree but there is definitely more at play than simply what we see.

Will @65, oh yes. Though, in the end, we will prevail.

Looking on the BBC Website HYS, and it seems a lot of West Ham fans not only want Moyes gone, but are convinced he will take them down.

For fuck's sake, Everton, and in particular, Kenwright, if he is sacked, don't even think of bringing him back.

Dyche might be a better bet than Moyes 2.0, solely on the basis of Moyes's history with us. Either would be a better bet thank Frank, unfortunately.

Why not hit the panic button? It's that time, again.

The Moyes - Kenwright partnership is the reason we have this acceptance of mediocrity at the club.

Don't even think about him returning.

I can't believe he gets mentioned.

Rob #67,

Blue Bill hasn't had any influence on managerial decisions since Moshiri took over... if he had, Moyes would have returned a few years back.

I suppose though Moshiri might easily abandon even that last vestige of interest in Everton.

One key indicator of a very good manager is someone who can consistently outperform the level of investment in the playing squad. Moyes certainly did that.

Indeed he's probably the only manager we've had in my entire time as a supporter who managed it – apart from Martinez briefly (who obviously inherited a well-drilled Moyes side).

What we need is someone who can do the same trick – which is why I think Dyche would be a good (albeit slightly humiliating) fit for a few seasons to get us fit, committed and organised.

Robert #72,

Very sensible post... apart from the fact that it's after 11PM on ToffeeWeb on a Friday night!

What is this game where they constantly look to play forward balls to runners searching out space through the lines?

Confused of Aigburth

Wolves much improved. They won't go down.

Traore proving once again he can cross when he gets to the byline; it's a fallacy that he has no end product.

Michael,

This tends to be seen with the lower-quality teams. It's a tactical naivety that hasn't learned the merits of possession-based protracted slow-ball juggling at the back.

Flagrant attacking is both dangerous and outdated. Only enlightened teams know this.

Ah, thanks Will.

They seem to have that other odd ability to put laces through the ball at close range and nutmeg the goalie with sheer pace.

I shall have to lie down for a while...

Villa Keeper Martinez left out of squad, Foxes Maddison injured, striker Ivan Toneh carried off.

All missed or won't play against Liverpool.

Brighton, who we play next... the VAR decision that chalked off their 3rd goal – just ridiculous.

Mitoma moving away from goal, a trailing toenail, based on that dreaded freeze-frame moment, when he's obviously level with the last defender. But, more pertinently, not gaining any advantage by supposedly being offside.

The total intent of the rule has been utterly corrupted by this forensic VAR nonsense.

Paul #75, in what way are Wolves much improved?

If you are judging them holding Man Utd after 26 minutes of their game yesterday, then I'll take your word for it, seeing as I was on the way to City at the time.

Seeing, however, that Wolves eventually lost that game, are you still of the same opinion that Wolves are much improved?

I know this is a Premier League thread, but who the hell within the Football League decided that Blackburn should play Cardiff today with a 12:30 kick off?

Massive credit to the 200 - 300 Cardiff fans who have made the journey to Blackburn, a distance of about 210 miles. They must have had to leave about 6:30 this morning to get there at least 90 minutes before kick off.

Yet again, no thought given to the fans, many who no doubt were probably still feeling a bit under the influence this morning.

They never think of the supporters, Rob. I shake my head at some of the timings and fixture arrangements on certain days.

It's a good debate in the wider footballing context. Taking it a step further, I think outside the top 2 tiers, we should break out into regional leagues. I believe we used to have this system in place, but now it only kicks in at the 6th tier and below.

Why have Hartlepool (club and fans) making long and expensive trips to Plymouth or Colchester? Those clubs would be helped financially but still have access and the ability to progress up the pyramid.

Rob, it's Sky again.

When Burnley v Rovers played on Rememberance Sunday both clubs asked for the kick-off time to be moved as it was less than an hour after the remembrance service.

As we know, Turf Moor is near the town centre, Sky moved the kick-off just 30 minutes.

Just another thing that's ruined the game – Sky TV.

You don't half hear some shit by these Sky commentators.

One mentions Romaro playing for Spurs today, while Martinez, the Villa goalkeeper, is only on the bench. The other thinks Martinez is still getting over the celebrations after Argentina won the World Cup.

It was two weeks ago, I think he should well over the celebrations by now!

Pretty dire game, more akin to a game of chess.

Tottenham's 3 central defenders on yellow cards after 36 minutes. Maybe it could get interesting.

Villa ahead. Poor by Lloris... A shot from about 35 yards out and fails to hold it. Watkins sets up Buendia to score.

Rob – can we please put some context into your comment.

The team finished 17th by losing the last 4 games of the season. By that stage, it was virtually impossible for them to be relegated and the players were on the beach.

The following season, having had his star player sold to keep the bank happy, he achieved 4th place – the highest we have been since the year after Kendall left the first time.

Sadly, the memories of people on here are "we have a point, let's not lose it". We were a club which needed stability, which is what he eventually achieved. My belief (and from what I saw) is that, once he had done that, the team then played some nice football with the likes of Baines, Pienaar, Osman.

And as for West Ham Utd – yes, 7th last year and 6th the year before. I think, with our current record, us Evertonians would have taken that.

But I would still not want him back at the moment – unless he brought a few players with him and we kept Thelwell.

Phil, I assume your post is directed to someone else, and not me. If it's to me, which post do you refer too?

2-0 Villa. Good second goal as well, scored by Douglas Luiz.

Sorry Rob - should have been Joe McMahon a couple of comments below yours.

Tottenham look like they wanted to stay home not be out playing football.

Hmm, Mr Levy will be getting itchy fingers.

Spurs have been shite all season and dead lucky to have 30 points. Only the RS are consistently poxier than the London media darlings.

I think Emery is going to prove a strong appointment by Villa.

Richarlison might as well put a transfer request in, because he's not going to achieve what he wants to at Spurs.

I wonder about Richarlison coming back to us at some point. Could it happen?

Good game plan by Villa. Tottenham off sorts. How are they 5th?

Phil, that season we finished 4th, I believe it was the lowest points total to qualify for Champions League and was achieved because every time we done our best in that run in to cock it up, Liverpool equalled us.

And then we properly messed it up the following season, although the official assisted. But then we went onto the unmemorable and embarrassing night in Bucharest to rub salt in the wounds. And we finished 11th after a horrendous run of defeats before the New Year. One of my red cousins teased me by asking if we were releasing a DVD called 2 nights in Europe.

It's why I understand it's a generational thing. I grew up wondering who this Everton my dad spoke about actually were. Tales of Roy Vernon, the Angel Gabriel, Alex Young and the Holy Trinity, 2 league titles and an FA Cup with a near miss in 1968 seemed a long way off as I watched 1970s Everton.

But I never stopped believing.

Then my time came. Two league titles, an FA Cup, a European trophy and a near miss on another title and 2 FA Cups, plus watching us win in 1995.

I wouldn't ever belittle anyone's opinion based on their experience, but I can't and won't accept 7th place mediocrity for Everton. That's not the ambition I have for the club. That is what has gotten us to where we are.

Phil @87,

Absolutely you are correct, and he on the whole was involved with some very astute player purchases. But it's hard to forget Everton 0 Wigan 3 for a place in the quarters and the Liverpool semi when we had them in our grasp and the Shrewsbury FA Cup knock-out the same season they were relegated to The Conference.

But most of all (and it's not hate), I can't forgive him for being too close to Kenwright and being part of accepting being in the Premier League was enough. 11 years he had, many maulings from Liverpool and as we know the Anfield record.

He was looked after by Everton, being one of the highest paid managers in Europe, and did a deal with Man Utd that not even his best buddy (Blue Bill) was aware of.

Chelsea all over the place here.

Forest look like they can go on and win this.

Danny

Yeah, Potter hasn't figured out yet how to get them to play his way. Players like Sterling don't seem to fit his system and they just look confused.

A good performance by Forest, fought for everything.

They played well against Man Utd last week at Old Trafford. They were trying to attack and it was impressive how many of their men were getting in an around the box when attacking, I counted seven on one attack.

They recover well too. It's something I'd like to see more of from our midfield; when Calvert-Lewin gets up to full speed, it will help.

I wonder how much patience Potter will get. Maybe a bit more with Ambramovic out of the equation.

But a club that rivals Everton in the revolving door of managerial appointments makes me concerned for him.

Chelsea is a different level of expectation to a provincial well run club that spent decades in the lower tiers without a ground to call their own.

Approaching 7 years since Chelsea won the league. Everton in 1994.

Mike Walker anyone?

Tony (102),

You hit the nail on the head there, with Forest pressing in both halves of the field and pressing with serious intent.

I watched them when they beat Liverpool 2-1, they really had a go. Right in their faces, the whole team, they could have lost but they also could have scored a few more that day.

No 80% defending and hanging on a for a point. No, they went out to win with a team cobbled together 6 months ago. They'll get stronger and better the more they play together.

At Brighton, Potter had the luxury of managing an extremely well run club. At Chelsea, it is a different kettle of fish.

They probably need to give someone time to sort out a very promising but weird squad. They might well have this in mind as they've spent a fortune in the last 6 months or so on 3 teenagers (Casadei, Fofana and Chukwuemaka). Clearly trying to build for the longer term.

He is a good manager but, as DeZerbi is showing, Brighton make a manager's life much easier.

Michael @80

I totally agree with your comments on the offside ruling by the VAR that denied Brighton a third goal. The decision bears no resemblance to the reason offside was brought into the rules of football all those decades ago. I believe that Fifa need to have a complete rethink for the benefit of the game.

My suggestion that, if you get it right at the top and the structure in place, it can become irrelevant (within reason) who the manager is in the modern game. Chelsea themselves are testimony to that over the years.

I agree with your opinion on Chelsea's squad, Very imbalanced.

Brighton were unlucky with the decision. As on most occasions, I wouldn't always point at the VAR. The offside rule needs revising. I'd actually like to see it used more. There were a couple of challenges at the weekend that at the very least warranted looking at.

Sorry Robert, that last comment was in response to you.

I listened this morning that Tottenham have only won 2 in 7. Restless natives yesterday and Levy looking down.

Bournemouth have conceded more than anyone and have the worst goal difference outside of the Bottom 3; in fact, only Forest can "better" them.

It makes those 2 trips to the Vitality all the more galling, but I'd watch that space.

Can see Pickford going to Spurs, and Levy paying a shit fee.

Ian @110,

It'll be a straight swap for Dele Alli, knowing our bungling chairman!

Tony (131) nice one, deserves more attention, made me laugh. Haaland still evolving too, from Neanderthal man.

Now come on, Toffees – giz a boss New Year start tomorrow...