30/09/2023 374comments  |  Jump to last
Everton 1 - 2 Luton Town

Everton were thoroughly embarrassed by newly-promoted Luton Town at Goodison Park, giving up two pretty soft goals from set pieces that they could not counter.

Sean Dyche has gone for an attacking line-up with Calvert-Lewin and McNeil upfront, and Graner starting perhaps in a central role in front of his trusted midfield trio. Jack Harrison is on the bench but will hopefully make his Goodison and Premier League debut.

The visitors got things started on a wet Goodison Park, and they did enough to stop any Everton flow, the early play being a bit scrappy. But the ball fell for a tremendous volley from McNeil that whizzed just wide of the post. 

McNeil put a decent cross in to Calvert-Lewin who placed his header nicely for Kaminski to collect.  A dangerous cross from Luton needed booting behind by Tarkowski, earning an early corner that Pickford claimed. Both teams were playing pretty open football and getting the ball forward.

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From a Luton attack, McNeil forced the turnover, Docucoure countered well and played in Garner superly but he wanted to place it… and failed, firing across goal and past the far post.  

Everton worked the ball well, Doucoure playing a simple ball back to who? Gana. What a dreadful, dreadful shot. What an abysmal waste of a chance. 

A great ball forward from Onana to Garrner was crossed early — way too early for Calvert-Lewin who was still to get himself into the Luton area. Onana worked some space and tried a nice curler that also flew past the post. Five very decent chances in the first 15 minutes: none taken. 

In the other direction, Ogbene almost played in Brown, then Morris glanced a header out for a throw-in, and he was offside. But a warning of sorts for the profligate Blues. 

Everton tried to build an attack but ended up gifting a turnover that Branthwiat had to recover, brilliantly. Luton still won another corner, Lockyer with a free header flying just over. Warning Number 2.

Everton tried to build again but Onana played the ball forward into space where Calvert-Lewin was not.  Luton went forward and won another corner, and another free header that was deflected behind, Another free header, off the bar and bouncing down, Young tried to clear but Lockyer blocked it into the Everton net.  Warning not heeded. 

Everton tried somewhat laboriously to respond, McNeil eventually putting in a lovely cross but Calvert-Lewin seemed to misjudge it, as it flew wide off the top of his head. 

Onana was called for a foul and the free-kick was played deep where Morris, completely unmarked simply half-volleyed it superbly first-time past Pickford. Unbelievable.  

Everton looked really poor once they restarted passes going astray, unable to play basic stuff. They finally got the ball forward, Young crossing again but Calvert-Lewin unable to do anything with it,  Then in the follow-up at least Gana did not shoot but his cross was to no-one.

But they kept pushing, McNeil's excellent cross met by Garner leaping very high but he could not keep his header below the crossbar. Everton kept working the ball around but the chances were not really coming, Onana firing ridiculously wide. 

Everton did get the ball into the net, Doucoure getting onto Garbner's cross, Onana coming in and Calvert-Lewin in support, finally scoping it into the net but was he offside? 10 minutes later, the VAR finally decred it was indeed an Everton goal. 

With 6 added minutes, Everton won a free-kick that McNeil swung in and it came out to Garner whose shot was into too many bodies. On the next attack, there was an appeal for handball that was not entertained by the VAR. 

The Blues play was terribly scrappy, as they were in a state of panic to get forward. Mykolenko crossed too deep for Kaminski to collect and the half-time whistle finally went on a bizarre Everton first-half performance. 

Harrison came on for Gana after the break but Luton were still full of it, Doughty skipping down the left wing.  Pickford tried to go direct to Calvert-Lewin but he hadn't got the message. It was combative stuff without much structure, though. Calvert-Lewin's shot from well outside the area was blocked, and Luton could again run at Everton, winning another corner that was cleared.  

Harrison and Young were trying to combine down the Everton right but could not really penetrate the Luton area. It wasn't really working so Beto came on in place of Doucouré just in time for a corner won by McNeil but Luton were defending resolutely. Harrisson was crossing directly to Luton defenders.

Calvert-Lewin tried a difficult volley that he could only send bobbling across the face of goal. Luton went straight up the other end and embarrassed Everton again but Morris had stepped a foot offside and the goal did not stand. 

Morris and Branthwaite went up for the same ball and both came down heavily as Everton still struggled to impose themselves on the game, and still bringing all players back to defend corners.  

Harrison tried a heavy cross to Beto running in at the far post but it was never on. Garner was next to cross in but McNeil was the wrong side of Kabore; however, they won a corner but it was cleared. Branthwaite wiped out Andersen.  

Mengi seemed to push Calvert-Lewin over as they sought the ball, but not enough for a penalty. The ball was then planted on Beto's head 6 yards out and he could not miss… but he did, with a really poor effort. He tried a very difficult strike on a ball crossing his line of travel. Needless to say, it didn't come off. 

Patterson on for Young but nothing was really changing the relentless pattern of play, with Everton continually frustrated at the sharp end as nothing seemed to be working. Beto and Calvert-Lewin were not in any way forming a potent attacking strikeforce. 

A deep cross from Patterson won a corner but still no decent chance on the Luton goal. Danjuma came on and tried a volleyed early cross but it was too far ahead of Calvert-Lewin.  Garner put in what looked to be a great cross for Beto but his body language was all wrong. 

The Blues were given an added 7 minutes to snatch a draw. Calvert-Lewin tried another difficult shot on a long hoof ball, bouncing away from goal. He hit the side netting. Pickford's heavy forward balls were sailing over the byeline. 

In the end, it was sheer embarrassment as Everton could not raise a glove to the very happy Hatters.

Everton: Pickford, Young (78' Patterson), Tarkowski, Branthwaite, Mykolenko, Onana, Gana (46' Harrison), Doucoure (60' Beto), Garner, Calvert-Lewin, McNeil (83' Danjuma).

Subs not Used: Virginia, Keane, Godfrey, Dobbin, Chermiti.

Luton Town: Kaminski, Doughty (83' Woodrow), Lockyer (56' Mengi), Burke (46' Andersen), Bell, Kabore [Y:66'], Brown, Nakamba, Mpanzu, Ogbene, Morris (78' Adebayo).

Subs not Used: Krul, Berry, Chong, Giles, Johnson.


Reader Comments (374)

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Chris Howard
1 Posted 30/09/2023 at 13:58:58
Hi all, hope you are all well :-) I don't post here very often.

I have a question about matchday broadcasts. I usually listen to the live games via the Evertonfc website, with Darren Griffiths, snods etc).

I can't access it these days, does anyone know if they have discontinued the service? I don't have Sky so it's the only way I get any live coverage of the games. Thanks.

Jack Convery
2 Posted 30/09/2023 at 14:06:03
Everton make four changes to the side that beat Aston Villa on Wednesday night.

Abdoulaye Doucoure, Dwight McNeil, Idrissa Gueye and Ashley Young come back into the side with Arnaut Danjuma, Jack Harrison, Michael Keane and Nathan Patterson dropping to the bench.

Dominic Calvert-Lewin gets a start up front once more after scoring two goals in his last two games.

Dale Self
3 Posted 30/09/2023 at 14:07:36
Alright then, UTFT!
Andrew Merrick
4 Posted 30/09/2023 at 14:08:16
Good bench but Garner out wide again?
Iain Johnston
5 Posted 30/09/2023 at 14:09:16
Oh well, that's disappointing. I would have liked to have seen Harrison start & Gana on the bench.
Ray Roche
6 Posted 30/09/2023 at 14:15:01
Yes, Iain, Harrison out wide allows Garner to play in the middle.
Rob Hooton
7 Posted 30/09/2023 at 14:18:33
If it isn't working, then Dyche can change things by bringing a number of attacking options on – Harrison for one of the midfield trio and Garner moving back inside. I imagine they want to ease Harrison back in gently.

Hope we start well and get the win, COYB!

Billy Shears
8 Posted 30/09/2023 at 14:23:34
I'm really looking forward to this game, the feel-good factor to continue with finally a home win and most importantly three vital points in the bag,

3-1 Blues and Dom to score again, methinks. 💙

Alan J Thompson
9 Posted 30/09/2023 at 14:34:45
I'd rather we had started Patterson at right back and somebody more adventurous (Harrison?) than Gana, this is Luton not Man City.
Michael Kenrick
10 Posted 30/09/2023 at 14:42:36
Hi Chris (#1),

I've had a devil of a time figuring it out, especially on the iPhone App.

On the Everton website, make sure you're logged in as a Member then, from the menu bar, select 'VIDEO' and choose the Everton TV section of the website, then click on 'Live'

The audio commentary of the Upcoming Match should be available by clicking on Listen Live. Only it's not available until ~5 mins before kick-off (even though it says 'Live Now')

Will Mabon
11 Posted 30/09/2023 at 14:52:09
Another rare occasion of having almost everyone available. Do we have some new medical staff?
Michael Kenrick
12 Posted 30/09/2023 at 14:59:31
Err... there's at least three still missing, Will.
Si Cooper
13 Posted 30/09/2023 at 15:00:16

Looks like Doucouré will have license to play off the striker as much as possible. Plenty of options off the bench.

Know next to nothing about this Luton team although I've tried to check out Barkley's contribution a few times. Looks far too passive to me, far too content for the ball to be 10 yards away and going nowhere rather than demanding time on the ball and trying to get things going. Hopefully there will be no change today if he plays.


Ben King
14 Posted 30/09/2023 at 15:34:58

How are we always so friggin shit???

Sean O’Hanlon
15 Posted 30/09/2023 at 15:37:44
Honeymoon over. 2 down home to Luton, on the half hour.
Pete Hughes
16 Posted 30/09/2023 at 15:39:46
Pathetic Everton,

Don't suppose we should be surprised really?

Ernie Baywood
17 Posted 30/09/2023 at 15:57:47
Some good. Some terrible.

We're going to have the vast majority of the ball... and we're playing with a defensive, non creative, counter attacking second striker, Number 10, attacking midfielder or whatever the hell Doucoure is supposed to be.

Then we've got Gueye who is poor on the ball and offers minimal threat.

And full-backs who can't contribute anything in the opposition half.

It doesn't make sense. How are you going to break down a team that sits in deep by using the same players you use to sit deep and counter-attack?

I won't even go through the suggested changes as they're absolutely obvious.

Ed Prytherch
18 Posted 30/09/2023 at 15:59:41
No width on the right. Garner is wasted out there.

Gana should be off and a real right winger on and Garner in the middle please.

Si Cooper
19 Posted 30/09/2023 at 16:00:37
So now we have a better idea of the threat Luton pose. Can't afford to go 2 behind again so it has to be an all-out attempt to equalise from kickoff of second half.

The commentators on the OS (Snods and ?) called it spot on for their 2 goals but still reckon we should have enough to get the win. Hopefully their crystal ball remains reliable. Just need to be rock solid at the back and hungry for the opportunities that will definitely come in attack.

Time for Goodison to get really noisy.

Alan J Thompson
20 Posted 30/09/2023 at 16:01:53
What can you say, we could have, should have had six and from not that difficult chances and gave away two sloppy goals in which the defence should have done better.

I couldn't believe McNeil's shot was going to do anything but find the far top corner and then we started to get men forward but how many easy chances can we miss. For a while Calvert-Lewin looked like he was just strolling around but others got into scoring positions and the question now must be if we can continue making so many chances in the second half. The only player not having a good half is Young.

And VAR! How long does it take to decide whether it's a defenders arm or big toe keeping the scorers knee onside!

This game should have been decided already.

George Cumiskey
21 Posted 30/09/2023 at 16:04:08
Luton have looked like scoring from every corner and free kick, defence looking very shaky.
Neil Tyrrell
22 Posted 30/09/2023 at 16:06:07
Onana never touched the Luton player for that free kick on their second goal. I can only imagine it was given for Tarkowski going into him from behind.

I still think we'll win this.

Joe McMahon
23 Posted 30/09/2023 at 16:06:25
I can't help thinking over the years, the story (Grand Old Team) from Bill over many, many years of acceptance of mediaocracy has been taken in by much of the fanbase.

Ferguson and Unsworth were wanted by many to manage Everton because they "Get Everton". Look where they both are and the clubs and leagues they were sacked by. We are where we are for a reason.

For those who actually were taken in by Kenwright because he's "one of us" — Shame on you!

George Cumiskey
24 Posted 30/09/2023 at 16:58:38
Shocking performance.

Dyche completely out-thought, never even threatened Luton in the second half!

Kieran Kinsella
25 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:01:59
I blame Mike Gaynes. If you bring together a load of ToffeeWebers meeting at one game, natural law says there will be something to moan about.

Awful conditions, dreadful scrappy game.

Mark Tanton
26 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:02:21
Just when you think you can't question their professionalism any farther.
Sean O’Hanlon
27 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:02:29
Luton first win – it had to be at Goodison.

I wish the season would end now. Sell the club. Go into liquidation - and forget there ever was an Everton FC.

Because this Everton FC is unrecognisable.

Si Cooper
28 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:02:40
Players on the pitch have to make things happen. Didn't test their keeper in second half.

Absolutely shocking and terrifying looking to how the season could play out.

Tony Everan
29 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:04:03
Back to square one, no creativity at and all the half chances squandered. Luton did a bit of homework on set pieces and that was enough.

Bournemouth game now massive, no more excuses.

Nick Page
30 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:05:11
Called it. The most fucking Everton thing ever. Ever.

We're like some fucking cursed laughing stock that is tortured to the point of death and then revived so they can do it over and over again. Fucking sick to bastard death of it. Watch the Devil's Spawn go top tonight with an outrageous fluke at Spurs who won't turn up.

Fucking Fuck Off!!!

Sean Mitchell
31 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:05:33
Luton's 'first ever' premier league win.
Why are Everton always that team?
Goal droughts, winless runs, first ever wins play Everton and they all come to an end.
Sean Mitchell
32 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:05:33
Luton's 'first ever' Premier League win.

Why are Everton always that team?

Goal droughts, winless runs, first-ever wins… play Everton and they all come to an end.

Clive Rogers
33 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:06:38
Poor team selection. Garner is not a winger, Harrison is. Young and Gana are past it.
Ray Jacques
34 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:09:44
Typical Everton.

Nothing else to add.

Mihir Ambardekar
35 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:09:54
Just when you think we are back, Everton revert to type. Thanks for ruining the weekend.

We thought Beto and Calvert-Lewin together would be enough to secure a win but only Everton can fuck that up. Early promise of Beto has fizzled out.

To lose to a pathetic Luton team is totally embarrassing!

Frank Sheppard
36 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:10:14
Disgraceful, embarrassing, pathetic result. Just like a host of results at home last season.

Progress, what progress??

David Hallwood
37 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:10:37
That's Everton, that.
Kunal Desai
38 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:11:39
One step forward and two steps back. Symbolic of this club for many decades now. Cannot put any consistency together.

As long as we finish 17th it will be objective accomplished.

I don't think 777 Partners will keep Dyche beyond this season.

Paul Kossoff
39 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:13:53
First Premier League win for Luton, blimey couldn't see that one coming.🙄

Defeat purely Dick's fault. [No, I meant to spell it that way.]

Damage limitation if we beat Bournemouth next week. Did their keeper make a save?

Ian Edwards
40 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:14:38
Awful performance today and also by ToffeeWeb on the live forum. It needs to be said that there was a serious lack of moderation. Must do better.
Dermot O'Brien
41 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:14:42
I fucking hate this team. Bastards.

Fulham, Wolves, now Luton. Fucking Luton Town. Wolves go and beat Man City, we can't even touch Luton.

Dyche can fuck off. Hasn't a clue. Any games we won with him were flukes.

Will Mabon
42 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:14:46
Michael @ 12,

hence "almost". Not that it had any effect.

Danny Baily
43 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:15:19
With the home games we've let go you wonder how we get to 9 or 10 wins.

This was must, must win, and we lost it. It's similar to last season and Southampton at home. We stayed up then, so we can do it this time around.

Embarrassing to be a blue. Embarrassing.

Mark Taylor
44 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:15:35
I posted last week we should not get carried away by the Brentford result. Their fans on the fan forum said it was the worst they have ever played in the Premier League.

That's not going to happen often and today, Luton played a decent game by their standards and that was good enough. To be blunt, we never looked like equalising in the second half, it was dross.

Bournemouth is now a must-win. Or at least, a must not lose. Forget about mid-table comfort, personally I'd bite your hand off for 17th right now.

Jack Convery
46 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:16:17
The usual suspects league - results against each other - as it stands after today.

Palace PL 3 W 2 D 1 L 0 = 7

Fulham PL 3 W 2 D 1 L 0 = 7

Forest PL 2 W 1 D 1 L 0 = 4

Wolves PL 3 W 1 D 1 L 1 = 4

Luton PL 2 W 1 D 1 L 0 = 4

Everton PL 4 W 0 D 1 L 3 = 1

Sheffield U PL 3 W 0 D 1 L 2 = 1

Burnley PL 1 W 0 D 1 L 0 = 1

B'mouth PL 0 W 0 D 0 L 0 = 0

Table based on results against each other so far.

Gerry Quinn agree, I left it until the final whistle. Some awful stuff posted today on the Live Forum.

Paul Kossoff
47 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:17:59
Dyche, "It's the mental side of it not the playing, we have signs we are getting that right, the mental side of it, not the playing."🙄
Ed Prytherch
48 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:18:24
Ossie was commentating on the game in the US. He made the point that Dom and Beto do not know how to play the twin striker role. It was a waste to have them on together. I wonder how Beto with so much height can keep getting under the ball and nodding it high.

We were out-thought and out-fought today.

Sean O’Hanlon
49 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:19:40
Over the seasons, you just wonder just how much lower can Everton sink into the abyss of footballing chronic atrociousness, and yet they somehow consistently manage to find a way.
Alan J Thompson
50 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:22:06
I'll have another go as the last effort could not be posted as there wasn't a Submit button!

It seemed like it was decided at half-time to put Harrision on for Gana which seemed reasonable but in practice just meant we had a man permanently stuck out on the right wing and who never tried to be anything else.

Then we put a second striker on which also seemed a good idea but unfortunately neither he nor the other striker knew where each were supposed to play, a problem further compounded when Danjuma was sent on.

What seemed to be missing was somebody in the role Doucoure played in the first half that is arriving late in the opponent's box. I was left with the feeling that it was substitutions for the sake of it without being thoroughly thought out.

While we should have put the game to bed in the first half it is again a defeat in a home game we should have had won against one of the teams who are also relegation probabilities.

What a pity my first effort could not be submitted!

Will Mabon
51 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:22:21
Danny, Jack,

We as a team are horribly fragile and cannot string any kind of run of games together. Rare to see such a lack of professionalism and belief.

Frank Crewe
52 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:22:28
"Young and Gana are past it." I agree with that.

We were on top against Villa until Gana came on. Then we started falling back. The same today. Gana offers nothing. We need energy in the midfield and Gana doesn't have any.

We have younger players so put them on the park in their proper positions. We have Danjuma and Harrison who are both wingers so why are they both on the bench while James Garner is playing wide right instead of centre mid where he belongs?

Everton seem to suffer from a line of managers who appear to like making life difficult for themselves by constantly trying to hammer square pegs into round holes regardless of the round pegs they have in the squad!

Ian Edwards
53 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:22:38
We pulled one back before half time and attacking the Street End we should have gone on and won that. But not even a shot on target. Disgraceful.
Ray Jacques
54 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:23:11
Typical Everton.

Nothing else to add.

Pat Kelly
55 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:23:43
Dyche shifting the blame onto the players claiming it's the mental side of it. Nothing to do with his selection or tactics. This will end soon but not well.
Ray Jacques
57 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:25:49
I will add something having listened to the shite talked by the manager.

Play James Garner in the middle alongside Onana.
Drop Gueye, for fuck's sake.

Will Mabon
58 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:27:14

not to absolve him whatsoever but in that, he is right. It's been the same for years. Of course, it's on him to fix it.

Dave Lynch
59 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:29:11
I posted in the week that we have been here before.

Can we afford to sack him? I'd say we cannot afford to keep him or we're fucking toast.

For God's Sake!!!! That was utterly unacceptable and embarrassing.

To shift the blame onto the players for what was a tactless performance and a terrible starting line-up is beyond the pale.

Bill Gienapp
60 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:30:15
Danny (43) - I think we'll take a few surprise scalps along the way, but clearly we can shit the bed against anyone. Maddening.

I thought we were pretty decent in the first half, but can't say we didn't deserve to be down, given how poorly we defended those two set pieces (and didn't bother to adjust to their outswinging corners). But we managed to claw one back, at least putting ourselves in good position to kick on in the second half...

And then... nothing. Dire stuff, scrappy, no fluidity, and no real ideas other than lumping balls into the box and praying Calvert-Lewin or Beto would get on the end of one.

It never pays to be confident, but I really thought we were in great position to build on the positivity of those back-to-back road wins. First time in a while I was excited for a match. Sigh.

Neil Lawson
62 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:31:54
It's the mental side of things.

Absolutely spot on. Drives us all mental watching a poorly managed bunch of overpaid imbeciles who claim to be footballers, managed by the keeper of the asylum.

Conor McCourt
63 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:35:48
Michael an attacking line up with Mykolenko over Patterson? With Garner right wing and McNeil over Danjuma or Dobbin and the usual three in midfield? Not an attack-minded line-up at all in my opinion.

That was embarrassing. Possibly the worst in Dyche's time. Every decision he made seemed wrong.

We had to break down a stubborn defence so we needed directness and pace to get at their full-backs yet he didn't start either Dobbin or Danjuma.

We were still bossing midfield and only Doucouré looked shit yet he took off Gana and we lost control second half.

Then he puts on two centre-forwards who just won't be able to play with each other and we go to hit and hope.

Now we are relying on delivery as we have gone route one and now he fucking brings on Danjuma for McNeil. Fucking bizzare.

Horrendous day at the office.

Jim Bennings
64 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:40:32
I'm hearing the club have put in a request to play home games at Prenton Park, because they can't play at Goodison anymore.
Tom Bowers
65 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:40:34
I usually get a bad vibe when I have seen the first 15 minutes of some of the games so far — and this was no different.

Everton are wide open from the first whistle and other teams even like Luton exploit this flaw in the Everton set-up.

Luton had far too much space and it was just a game of hit and miss which Luton took advantage of.

When is Dyche going to change the strategy and get them to play a tighter game in the middle of the park because this system clearly isn't working with the players he has?

Four home games and four defeats — all against average teams.

Will Mabon
66 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:44:06
Fourtress Goodison.
Dale Self
67 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:44:17
Alright, I read through each one of those. Fair and I take that as what could be only the first installment on my payment for backing Dyche in these times with this squad. This will likely be uglier than the Carlo Wars so I will tuck tail and respond later. Thank you.
Trevor Bailey
68 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:44:26
Expectation. What is that when it refers to EFC? They just don't do it. Why, I don't know. It's like a couple of years back they had chance after chance to go above Liverpool and blew the lot.

Who's responsible for this weak mentality?

I don't think it's Dyche, I think it's the players. I'd like to think that someone like Tarkowski could turn to other players and say something like, "Look, lads, this isn't working; we need to try x, y or z."

I suppose that would come under professional pride.
I've never met Dyche but he comes across as being well-motivated, why don't or can't the players get on board with this?

Lastly, for all you Dyche haters out there, is he responsible for a player making a mistake? No. Is he responsible for a player missing a goal-scoring opportunity? no. And so on and so forth.

McNeil nearly scored a cracker early on and we were treated to a close-up of him smiling and laughing. It was like he was so confident of beating lowly Luton. Shocking reaction from a professional player.

Anyway, for what it's worth, I thought we were really good for 20 minutes or so, it could've been 4 had some players not left their shooting boots at home. But defensively, shocking.

Was it Dyche who instructed the players to make those mistakes? Nay, nay and thrice nay.

Absolutely pissed off with the negativity on here. What a difference a week makes eh?

Jim Bennings
69 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:45:56
Dyche brought today on himself sadly.

Gana, Onana and Doucoure never works in home games never has since they have all been here.

McNeil not fully fit; I'd have pushed Danjuma for an hour out there.

I'd have given Harrison the nod maybe in midfield or Garner.


It will be our home form that sends us down if anything.

Ian Styles
70 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:46:53
Tom #65,

I wouldn't say Arsenal are an average team, but the bigger picture is we have lost 7 of our last 8 at home going back to last season and haven't scored more than 1 goal at Goodison since last October.

We won't get away with it again this season, being that bad at home.

Pete Hughes
71 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:54:30
Tom Bowers @65,

Arsenal one of those 'average' teams that beat us here!

Would love us to be that 'average'…

Sam Hoare
72 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:54:37
So, so poor and just so horribly Everton. There is perhaps a small case to be made for us being unlucky in the first half but the second half was just abysmal.

Dyche rightly got credit for Brentford and Villa but equally has to take stick for today.

I'm hoping it's just a bump on the road to recovery but obviously the home form is very concerning. He has to put it right against Bournemouth.

I still believe that we are likely to finish closer to 10th than 20th but confidence is both fragile and vital. It certainly won't sustain too many more showings like that.

Trevor Bailey
73 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:57:30
Jim at 69.

Honestly, I'm not being confrontational or sarky.
But home or away the pitch is more or less the same size.
I'm probably being a touch naive as the tactical side of things bores me to tears.

Back in the day, Everton won the league in 1970, Liverpool won the league using 14 players throughout the season.

I have a horrible feeling that the modern-day stats, such as xG whatever that is, will become a big thing when the Yanks (no disrespect) eventually take over the Premier League.

Soren Moyer
74 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:57:43
Tom, 65,

Until there is 8 games to go and we are adrift 5 points from safety! Then, they would sack him. That's the Everton way.

Joe McMahon
75 Posted 30/09/2023 at 17:57:47
Sam, closer to 10th than bottom. With this manager!

Kunal, ideally not longer than 7pm today.

Mick Davies
76 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:01:00

Dyche coaches, trains and picks the players. If the manager isn't to blame for the tactics, who is?

And if the players can't play together, that's because the manager hasn't coached them any way other than his one dimensional "sit back and hope to nick one" philosophy.

He knows that Garner is the most creative and also vigorous midfielder we have, so why stick him out wide? Patterson is a better fit than the ageing Young, and McNeil is just a one-footed luxury who loses the ball and does fuck-all to win it back.

Dyche, Woan and Stone haven't got a clue.

David Connor
77 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:03:00
I said before the game we would lose coming off the back of 2 wins.

Any decent manager should be getting more out of these players, as poor as some of them obviously are. Dyche is not that man and the trigger needs pulling now not after we maybe scrape a draw against Bournemouth.

Desperate times for our club. Why change the team from Wednesday night? Playing Gueye and Onana in the middle of the park is killing us. Dyche seems to be the only one who can't see it.

Get Potter in till the end of the season with a view to becoming manager full-time before it's too late. If we go down, we will go down playing decent football at least. We won't get that with Dyche the Dinosaur.

Please give us our pride back, EFC.

Paul Kossoff
78 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:03:42
What have cluedo, clue, Sherlock Holmes, Columbo and Sean Dyche got in common? T

They all rely on clues to accomplish something. The only difference being Sean Dyche – he really hasn't got a fucking clue.

Simon Dalzell
79 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:04:07
Dyche Out.
Barry Rathbone
80 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:04:09
After watching Everton for over 60 years, I can't fathom why people ever get optimistic about our prospects, whatever the circumstances.

Didn't Eddie Cavanagh of 1966 running on at Wembley fame say "Everton will always let you down" – and we were good then!!

I see people crowing "We'll do these 2-0 etc" pre-game and hope a responsible adult shares their home. It has to be self-flagellation.

Ted Donnelly
81 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:05:21
I see all the players we're on the sideways & backwards tablets today. There is no vision at all. The midfield were bereft of ideas and it seems not one of them can pass a ball more than 10 yards.

A total mess in front of goal. Doesn't anyone want to score?

Lee Robinson
82 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:10:14
The game handed to them before kick off with Dyche's cowardly line-up.

Why did the game finish with what is pretty close to what he should have started with? The stats show lots of chances but, let's be honest, they are all desperate attacks with wild crosses and shots.

If this team doesn't get an early goal or concede first they lose their heads. Terrible but I saw that coming a mile off. On the manager again.

Martin Farrington
84 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:13:50
We are renowned bottlers. No surprises today.

Dyche picks the midfield that nearly relegated us for two seasons. The "no longer a force" Gueye and laborious Onana. They are a failure. Garner on the right is wrong on every level.

Doucoure is never near Calvert-Lewin if he wins a knock-on. Neither break into the box for the many crosses and chances which are created. Calvert-Lewin jogs alongside his marker. He should be losing him and getting on the end of more.

The central defence have ability. It's the zonal marking from set plays which is killing us.

All height across the 6-yard box. 5 - 10 yds towards the ball leaving the rear third completely unmarked. A circus clown with size 20 boots, silly trousers, bells and whistles blaring could honk the ball home. With our smallest on their tallest and JP rooted on his line, and frequently behind it, we are always going to concede.

Gutted by that Lacklustre Loch Ness monster.

Sam Callister
85 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:20:38
Another level of despair… never been so confident of an Everton win, even when we were 2-0 down.

Second half showed absolutely nothing, it's like the last two results were just a fluke. Joke of the league... again.

Eddie Dunn
86 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:25:22
It seemed to me that Dyche was determined to play his old mate Young but of course Young is too slow. Garner pushed back out wide is not a good fit and after looking so composed in the centre really should have started there.

Once Dyche makes his subs, we look disjointed.

Unless Doucoure had a little knock, there was no point taking him off. Meanwhile, McNeil was useless all game, holding the ball too long and getting tackled.

Calvert-Lewin showed just how limited he is. He simply struggles to play with anyone and looked like he had no idea how to play up top with a co-striker, probably because it has only been on the rare occasion that Richarlison played there.

Beto looks sadly like a Championship slugger.

Harrison always looked better for Leeds when he cut inside.

We really had to avoid defeat today, but we shot ourselves in the foot.

I have to admit that I have lost patience with Dyche.

And Michael and Lyndon, something needs to be done about the Live Forum – it was ruined by a Kopite today.

Mark Ryan
87 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:28:40
All on Dyche and, yes, despite the Villa Cup win, I would happily sack him tonight.

This today was all on Dyche. It was dross and he set the team up poorly.

Jimmy Garner must have been scratching his head today. How to ruin a player. Watch him play brilliantly in 3 games then move him out of position. Dyche, you need to wake up.

Rob Jones
88 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:28:52
You can't have a three man midfield that don't create and then shove our creative player on the right wing.

You can't play a 95 year old at right-back when you've a very serviceable right-back who needs games to improve, and in front of whom you could have played... a right-winger (Harrison).

Like Everton, who have been saved for two seasons by the sheer mediocrity of the bottom of the league, Dyche's job is hinging on the fact that we can't afford to replace him, and that there's nobody who is worth hiring who will take it.

I spitballed the idea of Sam Allardyce on the Live Forum. What scares me is the possibility that he'll be hired with 10 games to go.

Trevor Powell
89 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:30:38
I have supported the Blues since 1961 when my Dad took me to my first game and I was hooked.

Never in my 71 years of life felt so glum and disheartened as the tragi-comedy of Everton goes from bad to worse to worst and beyond that…

And now we look forward to a "debatable" takeover by USA asset strippers. I have had enough of this gut-wrenching period in club history orchestrated by Kenwright and chums!

Mark Murphy
90 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:30:51
I'm in the Black Horse after the game.

It's Luton!

Luton... for fuck's sake!!!

Colin Malone
91 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:30:53
Has he gone yet?

Fucking shite.

Jeff Armstrong
92 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:32:06
Dyche just should have picked the same team and formation that did so well at Villa and said, "Go on, carry on from where you left off, momentum is key."

But no, he had to tinker, trying to be the smart arse when he'd already hit upon a winning formula.

Rob Jones
93 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:33:29
Reality check — Dyche is going nowhere.

He and his staff aren't going to leave money on the table, and the club can't afford to pay them off. So we've little choice but to accept it.

Christy Ring
94 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:34:04
You don't play square pegs in round holes.

Garner is not a winger, should have started in the middle with Harrison on the wing. Patterson should have started especially at home.

Doucoure is not a No 10 and Beto and Calvert-Lewin are too similar together. Losing to Luton at home is totally unacceptable.

Gary Reeves
96 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:34:50
If weep playing McNeil, we get what we deserve. He doesn't do nearly enough, a Championship player.

Sorry but time for the big decisions. Gueye's gotta go too.

Jim Lloyd
97 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:44:47
Very sad! I thought in the first 25-30 minutes we could have had the game well and truly sown up. Except our shots and headers went narrowly wide or just over.

The way we were playing I thought it'd be just a matter of time. Well it was really but not for us, for Luton!

They outfought us, out ran us, out muscled us and out played us. And the longer the game went on, the more shambolic we became.

Sitting in the Upper Bullens, watching Luton defend their 2-goal lead and defending their goal from our "attacks", was depressing as fuck!

I could rant and rave at their timewasting, feigning injury, taking forever to take a throw-in or the goalie taking a goal kick, But that's the ref's job to book them, add time on or warn them at least.

The ref himself and the linesman on the far side I thought were competeing with each other for who was the biggest knobhead!

But really, that was frustration at our superb ability to be outplayed by a team who many thought we'd whup! My comment on ToffeeWeb before today was that I never under-estimate the opposition and just hoped we'd play like we did on Wednesday night.

Well today, they were better than us. And we descended into a shambles once they scored.

I remember as a kid playing on the Oller and decided to join the underdogs, the Everton Kids. Happy with my choice in the early '60s; and saw us win 3 FA cups, the Cup Winners Cup, and 4 league titlesI look at our club, a noble history, then after our 86-87 >title, begin to struggle to win titles and cups; but still a team to be reckoned with.

But since that slithering, slimy, shifty prick took over the club on borrowed money, we've been on a slow, slippery slope to where we are now. Won bugger all, Lost the Kings Dock and season after season, more grief, bad luck and bad news! The day he goes away, very, very quickly, back to his London Luvvies, the sunshine might begin to shine on our club once more.

Danny Baily
98 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:46:20
McNeil on a good run of form is decent. Wasn't happening for him today. Wasn't happening for any of them.

I don't see how we stay up from here. But then I didn't after losing to last season's no hopers at home (Southampton).

A new, deeply embarrassing low nonetheless.

Stephen Colby
99 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:48:26
Having read The Washington Post's article in Friday's paper about Josh Wander and 777 Partners, let's hope that having witnessed today's performance from the Directors Box, he no longer wants to be connected with the club.
Liam Wilson
100 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:49:28
Eddie Dunn @86

There was more than one Kopite on the forum: Victor Yu and the Bosnian-Serb/Russian, take yer pick.

Nicolas Piñon
101 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:52:23
I couldn't watch the game but how can you persist with Garner wide? We bought two good wingers finally and keep them both on the bench against Luton?!

I'm getting a bit worried, but the only argument I find that would be valid is Harrison lacks match sharpness and just came back in the cup the other day from injury.

But he could've played Danjuma then, which gets him out of excuses and makes the scenario worse.

Jim Lloyd
102 Posted 30/09/2023 at 18:53:57
Barry, (80)

I've been going since roughly the same time (early '60s) and what you say is absolutely spot on.

Nick White
103 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:03:34
We should have been out of sight after 10 mins with the chances we had.

The moment they scored, we lost all confidence and fell apart. Awful.

Chris Leyland
104 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:07:30
Just home from Goodison and here's what I would say:

Tactically clueless from the manager;
Gutless and passionless players with no sense of urgency;
Statuesque defending set pieces. They had 2 warnings just before the 1st goal and didn't learn.

Aimless hoofing it up second half without laying a glove on Luton, yes Luton – probably the worst team in Premier League history.

This is a new low point for me from many lows over the past few years. I've reached the point where I'm dreading going to the game. It's lost any sense of enjoyment for me and it's painful.

Lee Robinson
105 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:07:40
You can't play McNeil and Garner on the wing if you don't have progressive full-backs. A 3-4-3 would have worked with McNeil, Patterson on the wings, Danjuma, Harrison, Calvert-Lewin up front.

Patterson, Harrison, and Danjuma should have all started that game. He needs to choose between Doucoure or Gana in midfield, not both and preferably none.

Not one for calling for the manager but I've rarely been impressed with his team selections, or tactics, so for me, I'd like to see a change. He has a fully fit squad there with options and attacking options which many before him haven't had. Can you think of another progressive coach who would have set up like that?

I generally think there's enough there to turn that squad into a decent mid-table side at least.

Jim Wilson
106 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:13:27
Jim @ 102,

I started going a bit later than you, just a couple of games in 1969-70 and then onwards.

I vaguely remember you saying you would post some memories of the '60s if you ever got the time. I wish you would, mate, I need some inspiration from somewhere.

I would give anything for another Ball, Harvey & Kendall!

Bill Fairfield
107 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:15:25
We just can't afford awful results like this. The second half was completely brainless. The more subs made, the more brainless it became.

What a massive let-down this team is. Just when you think they've turned the corner, they dish up more garbage.

Mal van Schaick
108 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:17:48
Jeff #192.

I said exactly the same. He should have kept the same team and even the formation, why change a winning formula?

I am fuming about that performance and lack of decent creativity. One step forward, two steps back. Just when we think that we are making progress.

I doubt the new owners will put up with that scenario, week-in and week-out.

James Marshall
109 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:18:09
We have a decent squad now, and a decent first 11 – the problem is he picks the wrong 11 all the time.

Stop playing Garner wide when you have Danjuma & Harrison sat on the bench. It's not rocket science.

Dyche won't go though, we can't afford to pay him off.

Nathan Goulart
110 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:18:35
We go from two great away wins then back into relegation mode at home.

What the Fuck??? So pissed off… I need to quit watching sports.

Oliver Molloy
111 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:20:07
I'm fucking disgusted, there can be no sugar coating this performance.

I was really looking forward to seeing Beto and Calvert-Lewin play together – don't know why after this… it's not going to work out.

Beto showed today why his Udinese were prepared to let him go - two headers he should have buried in my opinion.

That's three of the teams we have played in our mini league and have lost twice at home and drawn one away.

Young in front of Patterson I just do not get. Gana offers little, Doucouré and Onana are both very inconsistent – none of these three are creators.

Do we any fucking players who can cross the ball? It is of course possible we may achieve the odd upset, and we will probably need to in order to have a chance of staying up.
Bournemouth next – doesn't bear thinking about!

Luton deserved their victory – rubbish performance from us at home once again.

Dave Abrahams
112 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:24:50
Well the team that was picked to start did well in those first twenty odd minutes except the scoring part, gave two soft goals away but the got back in the game with the longest goal I’ve ever seen.

Gana was withdrawn at half time and whether you like him or not so was half of the energy he produces, then Doucoure was withdrawn who scores half our goals, three forwards were brought on but no- one in midfield to engineer any positive moves, we created one excellent chance when Harrison nodded the ball to Beto and with the goal wide open and hard to miss that’s precisely what he did.

How quickly the manager? Team ? Deflated the hopes that we went to game with and I felt sorry for all the ToffeeWebbers I met before the game in The Harlech from near and far who had to suffer the misery of watching that game, see you next week, hope we are not coming back to watch any more of this dispiriting performance. Today was definitely ‘ Everton that’

Kunal Desai
113 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:25:40
Dyches' record is 25 points from 25 games. He'll be here until the end of the season.
Ian Riley
114 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:26:18
This is a top 6 championship squad and bottom 6 premiership squad. Today showed that! Dyche needs to find a way of this team not conceding goals. Today is a really bad day.
John Charles
115 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:26:18
What is there to say we were awful and Dyche will take us down. He plays a brand of football the EPL has moved on from long ago.

In terms of players - Gana struggling but still a far better player than garner

Young past it but still a far better defender than Patterson

Branthwaite will be good but was mullered by their number 9 today.

Paul Ferry
116 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:26:18
Fukav Reddzzz was actually commenting on a main thread on here before his first appearance on the Live Forum. How on earth was that allowed to happen?

I don't really appreciate being told on multiple occasions that I "fiddle" with kids and will get the crap kicked out of me, Lyndon/Michael.

As for the match, I'm just so sad and miserable. Dyche made all the right subs but not one of them worked. I'd like to say that it was one of those days, but it probably wasn't.

If only Garner had not missed that absolute sitter.

Iain Johnston
117 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:29:59
Am I the only one who believes that both Harrison & Danjuma will remain on the bench as 2nd choice because they're loaned in? They're here for cover only.

Dyche sees Garner as his 1st choice right midfielder & Doucouré as his first choice attacking midfielder. He won't change a thing in the league games, he doesn't have the imagination.

Jim Lloyd
118 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:34:43
Jim, I'll try and do that, for us both mate! I think we could do with some cheering up! I@ll try and check my history books cos' my memeory isn't as razor sharp nowadays. I actually started going before Sir John Moores was Chairman (what a difference now!) and him starting building Everton into a top team, when Johnny Carey was Manager. I can remember Bobby Collins joined us, size 5 boots and about 5 foot high. What a great general and a great player!
Will do Jim!
Ian Edwards
119 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:37:00
Paul 116. It was thoroughly unpleasant and the report option is disabled. Not good at all.
Mick O'Malley
120 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:38:03
Dyche is fucking useless, playing a 38 year old ex left winger at right back, bringing Gana back, cos Dyche is naturally defensive, Docoure was absolutely hopeless today, I can’t wait til we punt this, fella,, cowardly shithouse football at home against a championship team, his home record is disgusting, he is not the man for us, I hope he is fucked off ASAP, Garner out wide again? Paul and Ian agreed, it was embarrassing to read the nonsense and that gobshite posted, WTF is wrong with some people , defo a kopite troll
Brian Denton
121 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:38:24
Michael/Lyndon, it might be worth looking at the names given before letting people have an account. Fuzzy Redshite or whatever the name was is an obvious pisstake, but we've also got Robert Tressell (author of The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist) and Vince Furnier (Alice Cooper's real name) among other suspiciciously fake names.
Stephen Vincent
122 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:40:01
Just got in very very wet and with an exceptionally disappointed Grandson.

Just thought that everyone put a shift in but that our manager was out thought by Luton's. In Lockyear and Kabore Luton had the two best players on the pitch by a distance.

I didn't like Luton's time wasting but if I'm honest I understand it and I'm sure we would do the same given similar circumstances. It's up to the officials to put an end to it.

Just gutted and numb really.

Pete Jeffries
123 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:40:08
Bad selections by Dyche, should have definitely started with the final team from midweek.
Why begin with a defensive line up, the mind boggles.
Mykolenko waste of space, went missing for the second goal.
Gana another terrible performance as expected. Onana no better.
As Rob said earlier it's a reality check alright and the sooner the manager wakes up to it the better or else. Whatever else is.
Ian Edwards
124 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:40:25
When I joined ToffeeWeb about 20 years ago I had to pass an Everton quiz. Does that still happen or does anyone get entry?
Jim Wilson
125 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:40:55
Nice one Jim. No pressure though mate. There's already too much of that building!

Yes would have loved to have seen Collins in a blue shirt. We always sold players far too early. Even in the 60s and 70s!

Barry Hesketh
126 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:44:13
It doesn't matter what user name is given, the Eds have an email address and anyone that behaves on the site or the forum, like has been described above, should be vaulted. Of course the said poster can rejoin using another email but at least it stops them in their tracks and inconvenience's them.
Trevor Bailey
127 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:48:57
Mick 76,yes of course I get that.But was Dyche responsible for Calvert Lewin missing s great headedchance or Garnerhirring the bar.
No, a manager can onl play the players who he think can do a job
Was a decent side in all honesty, I still maintain they have little to no self belief

Paul Ferry
128 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:49:30
Stephen (Vincent) sums it up perfectly: "Just gutted and numb really".
Nathan Goulart
129 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:49:57
I had so much hope for Beto but it's looking more and more like he's not much more of a threat than maupay was. It's only a matter of time before DCL gets injured again and then we'll be fucked again. Games like Luton at home are must wins this season. Hopefully we can brush this loss off and get back into a good winning groove but with this team I'm losing my optimism quickly.
Pat Kelly
130 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:51:26
The only way Dyche is settling this ship is on the seabed. He's out of touch and out of time. It's easy to blame the players but they are being badly coached, set up and managed.

He will stumble on with a rare win or point here and there but he's not up to the job of today's PL manager. The new owners will ditch him. They're not stupid.

Ian Edwards
131 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:53:05
Nathan 129. No forward will be a goal threat when we have Gueye/Onana, a slow one footed left winger and a DM playing wide right.
Paul Ferry
132 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:54:38
Nathan Goulart 129: "I had so much hope for Beto but it's looking more and more like he's not much more of a threat than maupay was".

I think that you might have gone a little too early there Nathan. Take a deep breath. His goals will come.

Luton fan on 606: "We're gonna smash it from now on to be fair"

Mike Doyle
133 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:54:48
Lee #82] agree with your comments on selection - and thought most of the Sun decisions were sensible. The only problem is I thought we were worse in the 2nd half - particularly after Doucoure went off the energy levels dropped.
I don’t like to judge new signings too early - but so far Beto doesn’t look that promising. Then again I was unimpressed with Peter Reid’s early performances too.
7 defeats in last 8 home games. Worse than Rafa I think?
Mick O'Malley
134 Posted 30/09/2023 at 19:58:49
Pat agreed, I don’t care what other fans think but im. embarrassed that this fucker is our manager, he play’s cowardly shithouse football, he plays players out of position, picked a 38 year old left winger at right back, played 5 in midfield against a championship team, I can’t stand the fella and pray for the day he is punted
Dave Cashen
135 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:00:02
Even against poor sides we often give ourselves a mountain to climb. That second Luton goal was just embarrassing. How can their main goal threat be aloud to score unchallenged directly for a free kick ?

We had everyone back ffs and he still found acres of space.

So annoying

Roger Helm
136 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:04:31
Luton were the better team, better organised, fitter, more combative, they deserved the win. As for us, where to begin? I saw the first goal coming as we had just lost two headers in the box. How come we have so many six footers and lose to a set piece? Shows a lack of attitude I think. And where was our left back for the second goal?

I wish I’d stayed home and watched the golf, and I don’t even like golf.

Lee Robinson
138 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:06:10
I'll whisper this but I'd have kept Maupay, the poor lad ran channels and had balls pumped up to him for a season then gets shipped when we have 2 target men. He'd be an ideal substitute option in games like this when we need to break teams down as a playmaker, we don't have a number 10 in the squad and his link up play wasn't too bad. I'm tired of seeing hopeless crosses into the box, we need other options.
Paul Ferry
139 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:08:55
The marking for that second goal was criminal Dave (135). Their one true threat was given all the space in the world. Where was Vitaliy? Where was Jordan's shout? Where was the skipper's nous? Sickening after the last two games. A real kick in the guts and/or nuts. Plenty of individual howlers today, but Dyche does not escape the blame that he shifted entirely onto his players in his post-match blabbering. His team selection was completely wrong, although to be fair he saw this and changed things at half-time.
Joe McMahon
140 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:09:44
Mick@134, this won't be popular but I preferred Big Sam and Big Rafa. Benitez particularly had a lot of injuries to deal with. With few injuries
relegation Burnley Dyche has no excuses.

The football is predictable and dated. He's Chesterfield all over. I saw 10 years of him at Burnley, as many of you know my wife's a Claret. The football was awful to watch. Chant from the Clarets if winning was "Anti Football"

Anthony Jones
141 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:13:10
I am not sure anyone reads my comments, but it is cathartic to post here.

The central trio of Gana, Onana and Doucoure don't have enough talent.

Garner has to play central. If Dyche needs to go for that to happen every week then off he can go.

Barry Hesketh
142 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:14:15
Games like Luton and Wolves at Goodison aren't exactly must wins, at this stage of the season, but they are games where we cannot afford to lose, and we keep on losing them.

Dyche has overseen four victories from 13 home league games, that's not good enough, it will end our tenure in the top-flight.

Only one draw on home soil, and that was the last-gasp equaliser against Spurs.

Eight defeats in 13 games on home soil is relegation form by anybody's standards. Eight goals in total scored in those 13 games and all of the victories by a score-line of 1-0.

No clean sheet equals no victory, and usually ends in a defeat for Dyche's Everton at Goodison.

The club has to repair this damaging run of results at Goodison, somehow, as, so many people I met today, following the game, said what's the use of coming to the Burnley League cup-tie at Goodison? and quite a few more are contemplating not visiting as often for future home games, despite being long-term season ticket holders.

There's lots of empathy and sympathy shown to the travelling fans who go all over the country, and rightly so, but going to Goodison is becoming a chore in itself, and there are very few signs of things improving at least in the short-term.

One thing that Moyes' had, that many subsequent Everton managers haven't grasped, is the importance of taking points at home, even if those points are only solitary ones.

Mick Davies
143 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:15:44
In terms of players - Gana struggling but still a far better player than garner
John Charles, that's got to be one of the most ridiculous statements ever on TW. I just hope it was a wind up
Kevin Edward
144 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:17:44
I just don’t understand what’s so difficult about keeping a set up that’s worked vs opting for a train-wreck of a set up that has never worked.
Really disappointed but not surprised, and clearly this is going to be another mess of a season.
Some of these players might be up for the fight but hindered on this occasion by the manager, who now looks out of his depth.
All the good of the last two wins wrecked in 90 mins, and in our own backyard.
The nightmare continues.

Paul Tran
145 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:24:13
Can we sort the Live Forum out, please?

Free speech doesn't mean you can act like a complete c**t, unchallenged and unsanctioned.

Paul Tran
146 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:24:13
Can we sort the Live Forum out, please?

Free speech doesn't mean you can act like a complete c**t, unchallenged and unsanctioned.

Paul Tran
147 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:24:19
Can we sort the Live Forum out, please?

Free speech doesn't mean you can act like a complete c**t, unchallenged and unsanctioned.

Pat Kelly
148 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:35:30
Yes, the Live Forum was disgusting today and if that sewer rat is allowed on again I’ll stay clear of it.
Ian Edwards
149 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:35:39
That moron is still spouting filth on the forum. Is anyone from ToffeeWeb at home??
Tony Everan
150 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:37:55
Supporting Everton is like having a nasty dose of the crabs. Just when you think your in the clear your balls starting itching like hell. It’s a never ending cycle.

Today the crabs came back in their droves, filling blue Y-fronts to bursting point. For starters the team wasn’t right. Opting for Gueye was a defensive and conservative move at home against Luton. He is adept at breaking up play but not really any use offensively at all. Unnecessary inclusion today.

Against Villa the team looked like it had balance, tenacity, energy and threat. All the good work there was thrown on the bonfire.

The most disappointing aspects was the second half performance. It was disjointed, lacking in guile and creativity. Too many hoofs into the box from deep positions, such a lazy plan B made worse with sloppy passing in the final third and a general lack of creativity.

Sometimes the last hood from deep works but at this level defenders often find this type of ball bread and butter defending. Eventually the team lost its shape and purpose and you just thought there’s not enough creativity here to get a goal.

Bournemouth are a better team than Luton so we will have to be miles better in every respect next week. The good thing is we can be. When will we ever get rid of the Everton itch?

Tony Everan
151 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:37:55
Supporting Everton is like having a nasty dose of the crabs. Just when you think your in the clear your balls starting itching like hell. It’s a never ending cycle.

Today the crabs came back in their droves, filling blue Y-fronts to bursting point. For starters the team wasn’t right. Opting for Gueye was a defensive and conservative move at home against Luton. He is adept at breaking up play but not really any use offensively at all. Unnecessary inclusion today.

Against Villa the team looked like it had balance, tenacity, energy and threat. All the good work there was thrown on the bonfire.

The most disappointing aspects was the second half performance. It was disjointed, lacking in guile and creativity. Too many hoofs into the box from deep positions, such a lazy plan B made worse with sloppy passing in the final third and a general lack of creativity.

Sometimes the last hood from deep works but at this level defenders often find this type of ball bread and butter defending. Eventually the team lost its shape and purpose and you just thought there’s not enough creativity here to get a goal.

Bournemouth are a better team than Luton so we will have to be miles better in every respect next week. The good thing is we can be. When will we ever get rid of the Everton itch?

David Cooper
155 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:42:38
Anyone think Pickford was to blame for the first goal?

He should have tipped the header over the bar rather than flap at it after it hit the bar for Young to kick it against the Luton player.

You just know right then today is not going to be a good day!

Alan McGuffog
156 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:45:39
There is something intrinsically wrong at Everton FC. I don't pretend to know the cause... but we can throw Dyche under a bus and, believe you me, things won't change.

We may scramble a draw against the mighty Bournemouth but Liverpool will take us apart in the derby. There is not one player I'd shed a tear about losing... should any other side be interested in buying them.

Still, the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock looks luvverley!

Terry Farrell
157 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:46:15
We needed to score when we were on top, then it's a different game.

Their 2nd goal was criminal. Their No 9 runs around the back of Mykolenko who was already marking a man. He realises hes on his own and the ball was only going to him and he took it well but so avoidable!

Our fans don't help. Too many negative big mouths who prefer to rant about anything and everything rather than get behind the team when there's still 50 minutes to go!

Mark Frere
159 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:48:12
Terrible day at the office! So disappointed to see Garner deployed out wide (again!) after such a good performance playing central at Villa Park.

We actually started the game quite well and created a host of chances that were all squandered. Our atrocious defending from set pieces cost us dearly. Tarkowski and Branthwaite are both good defenders individually, but we look defensively fragile as a unit.

The reaction to falling behind from our players was the most disappointing aspect. Onana (who was playing well until we conceded) became anonymous for the rest of the game. As did others.

Dyche made the subs many fans were calling for. Beto and Calvert-Lewin just didn't work but they weren't helped by the abysmal crossing from out wide.

In hindsight, it would've just been better for us to sub Doucouré for Harrison at half-time and move Garner into centre-midfield. There was just no cohesion in the second half and we created nothing.

Alan McGuffog
160 Posted 30/09/2023 at 20:48:41
Tony...you sound like you've had an interesting life. Keep scratching 😁
Dave Abrahams
162 Posted 30/09/2023 at 21:02:00
The only good thing about today, apart from Liverpool losing, was I met Patrick Murphy in the Harlech, Patrick was a long time ToffeeeWeb poster.

He said he went under the name of various people while posting on ToffeeWeb so he could be anyone on here, he is a nephew, I think, of John McFarlane Snr so comes from good stock.

Barry Rathbone
163 Posted 30/09/2023 at 21:04:28
Said it several times but having the Gana, Doucouré and Onana trio on the pitch is a recipe for disaster.

Doucouré and Onana are athletic enough to be useful in a rudimentary way as long as they ae balanced by a proper footballer which Gana is not.

Gana exists on the myth that the occasional interception justifies a total inability going forward – it doesn't. What point is served by winning the ball if you don't know what to do with it and your pals are almost as hapless.

Add in the other bizarre signing of Young and the outfield with the 3 plus Young is essentially 8 players.

I have no idea whether Dyche has twigged to this most blatant failing or feels no options exist but he will be sacked if he doesn't sort it.

I'm struggling to find a precedent of playing with 8 outfield players as a successful plan.

Soren Moyer
165 Posted 30/09/2023 at 21:05:51
4 points after 7games! For fuck's sake! It's relegation form right there. At this rate, we'll struggle to gather more than 20 points come May!!!

How the hell did we end up with Dyche!? He is even worse than Fat Sam. And I don't give a fuck if he managed to keep Burnley up for a few seasons. So did Tony Pulis with Stoke City!

Ray Roche
171 Posted 30/09/2023 at 21:22:57
And Harold! What a gent. His calibre of Blue will always be missed.
Andy Meighan
172 Posted 30/09/2023 at 21:26:13
Today was absolutely dreadful. I'm a great believer in 'Don't change a winning side unless forced' but what does T Rex Dyche do? Yes… changes it.

Playing Garner wide is a waste of a shirt and just shows the limitations of this limited manager.

I keep reading we had loads of chances today but I must've watched a different game – just speculative efforts, I'm afraid, and I don't think Luton's keeper had a save to make.

7 home defeats out the last 8 games 8 goals scored at home since he's been manager and people are saying "Keep him".

Absolutely clueless, some of our fans; keep him at our peril because, believe me, there aren't three worse teams than us.

John Keating
173 Posted 30/09/2023 at 21:29:31
Shocking… absolutely abysmal.

I started celebrating the obvious 3 points on Friday at the Bramley Moore, then in town last night. Easy 3 points, easy…

Could have been, should have been 3 up after 20 minutes. Neither goalie had a shot to save, I think, all game.

Bloody wasted day… Horrendous! Fucking Luton! Luton!!!!

Craig Walker
174 Posted 30/09/2023 at 21:29:47
Barry @163. Agree with every single word.
Craig Walker
176 Posted 30/09/2023 at 21:49:34
I stay off the Live Forum. There's lots of contributors on TW who talk a lot of sense. Some of them I don't agree with but I appreciate their viewpoint and how well they make it.

I once got told on these pages that I should be a Wigan fan as that's where I come from — despite living and breathing this club as do my brothers and my son and so too did my dad until he died in 2003.

I used to think all Evertonians were class but that contributor made me realise there are fellow Blues who are dicks too, just like other clubs' fans. There's a minority who think you're not a fan if you don't live in the city or go the game. I never understand why we turn on one another.

Ray Smith
177 Posted 30/09/2023 at 21:50:13
As an Evertonian for 59 years, I'm absolutely at my wits' end.

On the pitch, I don't know what's going on?
Off the pitch, I don't know what's going on?

Some half-wit said to me today, change your team!!!

I'm not sure I can be bothered to read or subscribe to ToffeeWeb etc any more. What depths have we descended to when all I can see in the future is nothing?

Goodnight and goodbye.

James Marshall
178 Posted 30/09/2023 at 21:51:31
On the plus side, at least the derby is away from home!
Barry Hesketh
180 Posted 30/09/2023 at 21:55:37
The last 19 league games at Goodison have produced 5 wins, 1 draw and 13 defeats.

Scoring a measly 15 goals – three of which came in one game against Palace – and conceding 30, earning the club a miserable 16 points.

The manager's fault, ie, Lampard and then Dyche, or is something more fundamentally wrong at Everton?

The away form in the last 19 games on foreign soil has produced 3 wins 8 draws and 8 defeats earning 17 points. Scored 20; Conceded 33.

All the defeats were inflicted without Everton scoring.

33 points from 38 games is going to put us in a perilous position if this sort of form continues for the rest of this season.

John Malone
181 Posted 30/09/2023 at 21:59:00
What's the point in supporting Everton FC? — It's crap!

My glory years going the match were in the Moyes era, for fuck's sake!

What I'd do to watch a team that can pass and move the ball with purpose and deliver a decent final cross or through ball and a striker that can put a chance away!

Dreaming of the days of Pienaar, Arteta, and Baines playing triangles around the edge of the box!

Ian Edwards
182 Posted 30/09/2023 at 22:02:25
Ok. I'm terminating my account.
Mal van Schaick
183 Posted 30/09/2023 at 22:04:29
Why is Dyche talking about a story??? If he wants a story, try this:-

We have been nearly relegated in the past two seasons, the quality of football has been dire. The fans are fed up with poor performances and a Jekyll-and-Hyde team that turn up one game in every seven.

Cut the crap, do your job, bollock the players, and get your tactics and team selection right. We've had fantasy with Marinez. No more stories, or you are out the door too.

Ray Roche
184 Posted 30/09/2023 at 22:08:22
Ian @182,

Why terminate your account? Why not just consider your comments before posting them? And take some positive pills.

Paul Hewitt
185 Posted 30/09/2023 at 22:14:29
Luton won't win another away game. It's that simple.
Tony Abrahams
186 Posted 30/09/2023 at 22:17:47
Something is definitely fundamentally wrong at Everton Football Club, and it's not going to change overnight. We probably haven't won three on the bounce since Ancelotti was the manager, and Silva's team probably only did this once during his tenure.

I doubt Allardyce did it… I could be wrong, and I'm not sure it would have been done often by any of Martinez's teams during the last couple of years of his tenure.

Some fans don't help by screaming for a new manager every time we have a bad result, although I'm aware that it's their right to complain when Everton continue to lose at Goodison Park to the mid- and lower-table clubs.

Carlo Ancelotti lost to most of these teams at Goodison too and it's why he ended up 10th after having his team near the top three during his one full season at Everton.

We became known as "plucky little Everton", even though most of our “success?” came about because Moyes was very adept at being a flat-track bully. But since he left, we have lost every bit of consistency that his stability helped us achieve; this is why the Everton job has become so difficult nowadays.

Is Dyche the man? I'm not sure… but when people start saying there are much better managers out there, then without disagreeing, I first begin to think about our current predicament and then I start thinking: Could anyone just come in and immediately start getting Everton firing?

Alec Gaston
187 Posted 30/09/2023 at 22:20:33
Back to the status quo. Our results against Brighton last season and Brentford and Villa this season are the exceptions.

The last Everton player to score at the Gwladys Street end was McNeil last season when we got smashed by Newcastle – relegation form, I'm afraid.

David West
188 Posted 30/09/2023 at 22:23:30
Before this match, there was much positivity.

I for one had seen the signs, there is a team in there. I was apprehensive as we've seen it too many times. I thought we could have won this 3-0… We could have!!!!

It's players, it's players not taking responsibility, not being brave enough to take a chance, not saying "I'll try something different; if it doesn't work, at least I've tried."

McNeil is the only one who has that.

I like Onana, I've defended him on here numerous times as a young player developing, but I think it was him who should have made way today before Gana, before Doucouré.

The change at half-time didn't work. We were playing well first half even though we conceded 2 set-peice goals. The momentum was with us. The change, and subsequent changes, killed any fluidity we had and we looked ordinary second half.

Dyche will suffer from this, and rightly so. It's not good enough to lose to Luton in this way at home.

The derby seems like a pivotal moment in Dyche's time now.

John Kavanagh
189 Posted 30/09/2023 at 22:33:16
Not in the least bit surprised by that debacle, as I'd already posted a day before the match of my fears of an 'Everton That' result. I said today would be an acid test of whether we were actually improving. We failed spectacularly.

And next match we are faced with the sequel 'Everton That II'. Another winless non-scoring side whose Christmas is about to come early courtesy of the most charitable outfit in football. If you're making a debut, have never scored, or are on an awful run, Everton are always the answer to your prayers.

We have always produced 'Everton That' results like today's, even when we had a successful side. It's something us older Blues have long ago become used to. What's worrying is that 'Everton That' results are now becoming the norm rather than the exception.

Si Cooper
191 Posted 30/09/2023 at 22:44:58
I'm not sure there was a great deal of difference between the starting line-up and the one that comprehensively outplayed Brentford last week. Even if Brentford were below par, they are surely a step above Luton.

People talk about tactics / managerial decisions, but the bigger problem I see is players making simple mistakes / making very poor decisions.

I've been waiting to see if Beto and Calvert-Lewin could be used together (as apparently has Ian Snodin) but the problem reported by the commentators on the OS was that, when they were both on the pitch, no-one looked to play balls where one could provide for the other, with Pickford even lofting the ball to where Danjuma was whilst the two strikers were on the other side of the pitch.

Don Alexander
193 Posted 30/09/2023 at 22:53:39
Come on, you Kenwright supporters, where are you?

Or even after today do you still bizarrely credit where our club now is under his decades of ownership and chairmanship as another of his very own "good times"? Today illustrating to the squad he's always overseen just how good one of the best Championship teams of last season is in terms of what's likely to befall us next season?

I'm not expecting an answer. The question is so stark-staringly obvious even to an amoeba. And yet he still has fans does he? Even in the shit right now engulfing us on and off the field?

Absolutely incredible, and the sort of brainless sycophancy that's always sustained the greedy leech to the cost of our club.

Feel free to comment.

Andy Meighan
195 Posted 30/09/2023 at 23:03:28

I hate Kenwright as much as you, but I didn't see him pick Young or playing Garner wide right again. Or playing a 3 man midfield that doesn't function.

That defeat today is on the dinosaur of a manager and no one else.

Mick Davies
197 Posted 30/09/2023 at 23:08:44
Kenwright destroyed our club for personal gain and hubris. He doesn't even go to Goodison any more, has no contact with the fans and lies about everything from headlocks, to illnesses and promises of retirement.

But put his face on the screen and half the ground will applaud like brainwashed religious cult disciples.

Brendan McLaughlin
200 Posted 30/09/2023 at 23:16:03
Blue Bill... that's why we lost today.
Barry Rathbone
201 Posted 30/09/2023 at 23:18:56
Don @193,

Not entirely sure Kenwright has supporters.

I think people have pointed out our present and future financial calamity arrived with Moshiri and Usmanov nothing of this magnitude happened under Kenwright's unfettered reign.

Those same people recognise other issues can be laid at Kenwright's door.

Seems fair comment to me.

Dale Self
206 Posted 30/09/2023 at 23:34:57
I want to agree with Si but Barry is right about that midfield selection. I think Dyche underestimated Luton and folded like a futon. Okay, not that bad but the second-half response was a complete disappointment.
Bill Gall
210 Posted 30/09/2023 at 00:07:27
I didn't watch the game, just got home, and am I surprised by the result. I suppose so, going on our last 2 away games, this looked winnable.

I will leave it to those who were actually at the game for comments, but reading some reports, it seems that Dyche reverted to the same tactics and players which have proven ineffective in previous other home games.

So it is back to, out of the frying pan and back into the fire.

John Raftery
211 Posted 30/09/2023 at 00:10:25
What a frustrating, disappointing afternoon. Without the checking the statistics we came away from that game wondering how we managed to dominate possession for virtually the whole game, create so many early chances to take the lead, have so many shots, look much the better team, yet fail to get anything from the game.

Seven defeats in the last eight home games cannot be entirely due to bad luck, although luck always plays some part in football. It seems that teams, especially perhaps the lowly teams, now come to Goodison knowing that this must be their chance to gain a precious away win. Our home form has generally been poor for 3 years. While not alone in suffering a dip in home results during the pandemic, our club seems stuck in a permanent malaise despite changes of manager and a significant turnover of players.

Today, Sean Dyche used all of the attacking resources at his disposal. While it can be contested he might have used them in a different order, the bottom line is that several individuals failed to convert decent opportunities to score.

As for the defence, the first goal might be classed as misfortune but the second was simply the result of negligent marking at a routine set piece. The inability to keep any clean sheets is an ongoing feature of the Goodison malaise. The manager has work to do at both ends of the pitch.

Paul Ferry
212 Posted 01/10/2023 at 00:11:18
You read that right, Bill, but Dyche did change things at half-time, reverting back to a Wednesday-Villa-looking team but to little effect as we were worse in the second half. He actually made good subs but again to no effect.
Paul Hewitt
213 Posted 01/10/2023 at 00:12:14
Terrible team selection, terrible manager, terrible team.

End of.

Paul Ferry
214 Posted 01/10/2023 at 00:20:46
Top-drawer analysis, Paul Hewitt.

What are your ideas to fix things?

Jason Hewly
215 Posted 01/10/2023 at 00:22:44
Back down to earth! Or is it?

We got two good wins, but Villa made changes in a competition they aren't prioritising and Brentford have an injury crisis. It wasn't a spring, it was just good fortune.

Dyche isn't the guy we need. Villa and Newcastle were around us when they made their last managerial change, and they immediately shot up the table because they're decent managers. We're not doing too much better under Dyche than we were doing under Lampard.

Also, on the subject of Ancelotti, yes we finished 10th, but the player's bottle went in the last 5/6 games when Champions League qualification was a possibility, Ancelotti knew he was the next Real Madrid manager, and there was about 3 points separating most of the top half of the table. He's one of the greatest managers that's ever managed. It's a tragedy that we couldn't keep hold of him.

777 Partners (Jesus, when has any club prospered under a hedge fund?) need to tell Dyche he has one game left. If he can't build some capital in terms of results, he's got to go. The best we can ever hope for under him is dull mid-table football.

Paul Ferry
216 Posted 01/10/2023 at 00:29:15
The wins against Brentford and Villa were both "good fortune" Jason (Hewly)? That's absolutely ridiculous.

So, our performances in those games were second to "good fortune" in our victories, I don't even understand why someone would post something like this. What is there to be gained from this remarkable insight?

Jason, how many changes did we make for Wednesday's game compared to say Villa?

Paul Kossoff
217 Posted 01/10/2023 at 00:35:45
Don't worry, lads.

The Blues will thrash Bournemouth this Saturday.

Dale Self
218 Posted 01/10/2023 at 00:41:03
Also, on that plane, I think Kenwright's wretched soul vibe has created a rip in the space-time continuum causing weird force field dinosauramics in the box. How else do you explain the xG phenomena? The statisticians who set the criteria for goal potential will have to tweak their model because of us.
Don Alexander
219 Posted 30/09/2023 at 00:43:13
Barry (#201), respectfully it seems to me that the vast passage of time we've had to endure re Kenwright has to you eroded what me and many many other Toffees know to be the absolute truth.

He announced that he alone had bought the club (bent fuckers with massive untaxed UK revenues may disagree on this, if they're honest, which they obviously aren't).

He claimed credit for the (failed) Kings Dock stadium nigh on 25 years ago (it's in a much better locale than our "saviour", Bramley-Moore Dock).

He personally invited an already world-wide well-known football shyster named Samuelson, who bogusly announced at an Everton AGM that he'd always been a Toffee before being destroyed by one simple question from a genuine Toffee fan, to oversee the sale of the club to God only knows who (and that's still Kenwright's opaque mantra on a good day for us supporters).

He then accepted financial (utterly unsuccessful) "accommodation" from, allegedly, Stallone, Earl, Green (Green – What The Fuck!) before at last latching on to a wealthy football-savvy imbecile named "MyDeary" or something like it.

He's made himself very incredibly wealthy off our fans' backs.

And yet us perceptive fans are concerned about relegation and perennially abject football whilst Kenwright fans still fail to question why the near-on expenditure of £1billion has reduced us to this crisis, Bizarre.

After McDeary's (alleged) acquisition, Kenwright's since punched (as the man with his uncontested, by him, 95% responsibility for the daily running of the club) a near £1billion hole in the imbecile's alleged fortune (and it's suspect as the imbecile is seriously now possibly to be exposed to all and sundry as a fraud in the first place).

Too difficult a read for frenzied Kenwright fans perhaps but the labyrinthine machinations he's striven to avoid in accountability to his very own fans is so redolent of Trump and the dickheads who support him under their fatuous "MAGA" fantasy.

They're dangerously brain-dead...... but they are amongst us!

Ernie Baywood
220 Posted 01/10/2023 at 00:45:32
Our home form is not bad luck. Our home form is caused by having completely the wrong identity.

Picking Mykolenko, Gana, and Doucouré is probably justifiable if you're parking the bus and hoping for a break. They play to a certain style and they can be somewhat effective with that style. But that's not what happens at home and that's certainly not what happens at home to Luton. And their limitations are exposed.

It was interesting to see that, when we actually changed players in the second half, the players had no idea how we were going to play. We just played the same style except with players who weren't suited to it and clearly had no direction. Watching Beto, Calvert-Lewin and Harrison quickly holding a meeting on the pitch to try to figure out how to play should be a complete embarrassment to Dyche.

Plan A is crap and it turns out we weren't even working on Plan B. How on earth were we not working on wingers and two up top when we signed a winger and extra striker?

I'm past the point of saying things like "we're not good enough" as I predicted pre-season that we will go down with games to spare. My expectations are pretty low. Now I just want to see progress at the club – some sense that we can do the basics with the limited tools at our disposal. But that's not what is happening.

And atop all of this sits 'leadership' who can't and won't make any big decisions as they have one foot out of the door. They'll see that result and performance and do nothing, and I don't think any of us can realistically expect any more.

This whole situation is an absolute embarrassment to the shell of a club that remains.

Paul Ferry
223 Posted 01/10/2023 at 01:05:14
Don, I don't believe that there are any "frenzied Kenwright fans" on here or anywhere else for that matter.

Polite applause is one thing (and my God we've had a wide range of spectrums on that one) and "frenzied" support is another. I'm trying now to think of any other instance in which we – the fans – have expressed "frenzied" backing for Kenwright.

Sympathy is not support; nor is respectful applause. I don't know a single Evertonian who supports Kenwright, although there are certainly varying degrees of criticism and opposition.

We no longer need "straw" supporters to lampoon and lambast Kenwright, Don. We never have. Some still try to make out rather bizarrely that they were once lone wolves in a desolate landscape pointing out Kenwright's abject failures while the rest of us naive fools fumbled blindly in our fog.

There are no brave and courageous prophets in this Kenwright saga. Kenwright has always been the object of criticism, contempt, and derision on these pages.

All you need, Don, is to write 'Kenwrigh't, nothing else. There is nothing to be gained by false claims to "fecking told yer so" when nearly all of us did "know so". Your band of fervent Kenwright brothers does not exist, Don. It never has.

If I'm missing something, then name names. Who on these pages are "frenzied Kenwright fans"? Name one. Just one.

Jason Hewly
224 Posted 01/10/2023 at 01:09:39
Yes, Paul (216), fortunate. We hit Brentford at a good time and Villa, who are on a good run of home form, weren't "at it" on the day.
Mick Davies
225 Posted 01/10/2023 at 01:15:00
"xG figures" blah blah blah, "All the noise" blah blah blah. It's all so predictable from a man who hasn't got a clue.

He said, "I tell them, go out and change things!!!" — isn't he supposed to tell them how to change it? He says (persistently) we conceded sloppy goals – well who is coaching the players on what to do defending set-pieces?

Every corner causes panic in our box, and it looks like our team don't know each other. The marking is haphazard, Pickford is rooted to the goal line, and with everyone back defending, the ball gets hoofed up into their half and there's no-one there.

There were times today in the first half when all of our players were in our territory for minutes on end, sitting way too deep for a side who are at home and needing to win. If Dyche couldn't see that, then we don't have a hope of staying up.

Luton are going to be our rivals in a relegation scrap, and if they can take us to pieces with their strong aggressive play and containing tactics, then what will the Top 10 do to us?

We're so far behind clubs like West Ham, Brighton, Newcastle etc, who, before Kenwright, were always below us (even in lower divisions) that it's ludicrous how they get hold of progressive, attack-minded managers, while we get dinosaurs, novices and no-marks. I really do fear for our Premier Leaggue status, more than ever right now.

Mark Andrews
229 Posted 01/10/2023 at 02:13:08
Dyche is a clueless pub team coach, unable to set up a team to win at home.

He's safe simply because of the ownership situation at the club. His record is dreadful. He'll take us down.

Bill Gall
230 Posted 01/10/2023 at 02:58:23
Knowing the score, I just watched a recording of the game. A couple of observations:

(a) Goodison Park is no longer a fortress and teams are not frightened to play here.

(b) Sean Dyche is known as a defensive coach – how come Luton were able to win so many headers from corners?

(c) How come, when their keeper was getting treatment, some of our players were discussing tactical positions that should have been known in training sessions??

(d) Why are midfielders not told that a goal can be scored without aiming for the outside of the posts, or over the crossbar???

I am sure there are many more points that can be made but the simple one is Everton were out-coached.

Jason Hewly
231 Posted 01/10/2023 at 03:01:50
Paul, 227, that's just word salad bollocks.

Villa don't seem to be bothered about the League Cup and Brentford had 8 first teamers injured.

Or maybe you're right and we're actually world beaters with a genius manager who'll out-tactic anyone for a win... after losing at home to Luton.

Steve Brown
232 Posted 01/10/2023 at 03:18:28
Fulham - 1 shot on target- 3 points
Wolves - 1 shot on target - 3 points
Luton - 2 shots on target - 3 points

While we've had dozens of attempts and scored 1 dodgy goal against Luton.

We should be renamed xG United.

Amazing how stubborn managers can be in selecting combinations and tactics that haven't worked. Sean, this one is on you, pal.

Ernie Baywood
234 Posted 01/10/2023 at 03:47:42
Just watched the post-match interview.

I'm beginning to suspect he's Ricky Gervais in costume. This certainly feels like a mockumentary. In fact, that makes more sense than us actually doing what we do in order to achieve as a football club.

I know managers have media training to ensure they say very little of substance... but it's hard to imagine that guy:

1. Having any kind of actual tactical influence.

2. Being able to say anything that would inspire the players.

And if we judge on outcomes, he probably can't.

Woany, go and get the guitar...

Paul Ferry
235 Posted 01/10/2023 at 04:26:53
Josh Wander, Steven Pasko, and Don Dransfield taking up free seats at The Old Lady today on what was apparently a wooing mission to convince us of their solid credentials to take us over.

In the meantime, their Brazillian club, Vasco de Gama, were slapped with a FIFA transfer ban on Friday for late payments on three transfer deals.

Denver Daniels
236 Posted 01/10/2023 at 04:32:51
Let's not pretend like Garner is the love child of Hagi and Zidane. He's bang average and he wasted 2 great chances, especially the point-blank header in the 1st half. And what's with the the far post curling shots? How often does that go in? Never.

Everyone wants to blame Mykolenko for the 2nd but we had 3 defenders marking one Luton player which left him marking 2.

The biggest issue is the lack of quality in front of goal and lack of quality delivery into the box. Beto and Calvert-Lewin both occupying the same space was embarrassing, as well as Calvert-Lewin's lack of movement or anticipation in the box.

Until we become more clinical in front of goal, this will happen over and over again.

Ernie Baywood
237 Posted 01/10/2023 at 06:32:37
Becoming more clinical isn't a plan, Denver. Dyche says pretty much the same thing (though in about 20 times the words). It's equivalent to saying "be better players", which Dyche also pretty much says.

Playing to a style is a plan. Picking players who suit that style is a plan. Recruiting players who suit that style is a plan. Selling players who don't suit that style is a plan. Training and educating players in that style is a plan.

I'm not convinced anything at Everton is really planned nowadays. I think we just exist and lurch from one delayed short-term decision to the next.

Pick Idrissa Gana Gueye or don't pick him... What possible basis could we use to inform that decision? I believe that at our club it's a completely isolated decision. If you were thinking in terms of any kind of possible plan that the club might have, then you wouldn't pick him, right?

David Connor
239 Posted 01/10/2023 at 06:57:33
Gueye and Young are bench players at best yet Dyche plays both, week-in & week-out. They are both too old and too slow and need moving on ASAP. Everyone can see that apart from him.

Mykolenko is bang average: he gives little in defence and almost zero threat going forward and needs shipping out in the summer, as does Onana – the guy is a luxury player who may be suited to a better more fluid footballing team, ie, Arsenal.

Cash in on him while we can at least get the fee back. The longer he puts in shite performances for Everton, the less we will get for him.

Lose or draw at home to Bournemouth and hopefully Dyche is gone. The fella is stuck on repeat and is a fucking joke of a manager. If he stays, prepare for life in the Championship. You can't have a home record like ours and survive – it's almost impossible. Wankers.

Marc Hints
240 Posted 01/10/2023 at 07:14:43
Frank #52

Everton seem to suffer from a line of managers who appear to like making life difficult for themselves by constantly trying to hammer square pegs into round holes regardless of the round pegs they have in the squad!

Absolutely spot on!

Playing Garner wide again after his performance in the middle and leaving two wingers on the bench is baffling

Paul Ferry
241 Posted 01/10/2023 at 07:34:21
Dyche actually said it, I can't believe it but he did: "The XG is right up there".

He fecking said it, as well as putting all the blame squarely on the shoulders of the players (each one of whom deserved some measure of blame) and refusing to accept even a tiny tad of responsibility. He loves to play the part of the gruff, straight-talking, no holds barred knife to a gunfight fella but this is shithouse avoidance/gaslighting.

That post-match presser was a fucking disgrace. "We" he says, but he means them, the players. They have all the analysis "you can imagine", he says, but like me the crowd were "frustrated". All we needed to do was "play". "Go on change the story", he says to the players. Gobshittery yellowness Dyche. Not, I changed things at half-time because I got it wrong.

Shithouse avoidance Dyche. And now the "story" is to blame. What the fuck are "hard yards" you muddy Baseball Gound floodlight failure where's the penalty spot near dinosaur.

Don't ally yourself with the crowd against the players Dyche. He actually said we "put it on a plate" for the players. He said that.

He loves saying "hard", "ugly", and "two-year-old-story", doesn't he, in that gravel gob?

There's a touch of shithouse about him, I fear.

I so hope I'm wrong.

Colin Glassar
242 Posted 01/10/2023 at 07:37:28
Controversial perhaps but, we need to get out of Goodison Park asap. The place is cursed and has become a deadweight around our shoulders weighing us down with false hope and mediocrity.

New stadium. New owners. New manager. New mentality. Out with the old and in with the new. No more living in the past. Time to build a new future.

Gerry Quinn
243 Posted 01/10/2023 at 08:05:26
Was there a reason for you deleting my post (#45) complaining of the troll "Farkov Redz", Michael? It was not offensive it was requesting you block the guy...
Danny O’Neill
244 Posted 01/10/2023 at 08:12:54
John Raftery. Most sensible post on this thread.

A very disappointing outcome in a game we could easily have won. I wouldn't call it a 6th sense but I knew they were going to score from those corners. I could feel it in the bones.

If I'm being critical, the midfield went absent for periods again. As mentioned, Mykolenko was overloaded for the second, so I won't be too harsh on him. And we had way too much of a straight line defensively. But once again, we had chances that we failed to convert.


Interesting comments on the Brentford and Villa results being fortunate. I would challenge those statements having attended both matches. Brentford hadn't lost at home in god knows how long. Villa had Cash, McGinn and Luiz, Bailey and Tielamans on the pitch. For the second half, they introduced Watkins and Digne. As we know, Olsen is a decent keeper. Hardly a depleted team.

It wasn't fortunate. Both results were good Everton performances and deserved results against good sides earned through on the foot front performances. One of them battered the much admired Brighton yesterday.

Goodison appears to be becoming an issue for us. We seem to get stage fright and the support responds accordingly as opposed to the sheer adrenalin of the away games.

On Kenwright. I don't like the finger pointing at fellow supporters. Some didn't like it early days, others came to the show late (pun intended). Me? I was okay when he first took over from Johnson. A bit like with his sideshow Bob, Moyes, I accepted what needed to be done at that point in time.

But I turned before Moyes left and his time was up. He should have gone years ago; at the very least when Moshiri arrived, but that is on the current owner. How Kenwright is still there is beyond me. If the man has any conscience he would resign. He hasn't got any.

Well, yesterday is gone. Bournemouth next and then the short trip to that cesspit. We have had some positive performances and are creating chances. We just need to convert them and be more clinical. It will come.

Who knows?

Bobby Mallon
245 Posted 01/10/2023 at 08:16:44
I have just sat and watched the whole game on sky. I know you will all be saying why 😂.
I’m one of the many fans who scream the manager needs to go, this is shit, so and so is rubbish. But I always give it 24 hrs to calm down and then watch the game over.
So what do I have to say about the game.
1, I’m gobsmacked at how disorganised we looked and how poorly we pass the ball.
2, the formation was ok but the personnel where wrong. Patterson Danjuma and Harrison should have started over Young, guey, Doucourér.
3, Pickford needs a rest in my opinion. ( I’m not saying he’s no good but he’s to settled and making crazy decisions when he gets hold of the ball. On 47 mins or so he caught the ball and instead of calming down and chilling for a few seconds he booted the ball straight up the field over DCL head straight to their keeper we loose possession.
At no point in the game did it seem we had a game plan or if we did it wasn’t carried out.
What I don’t get is if we have wingers Harrison Danjuma ( love child Mc Neil ) why are they not played and told to get as many crosses into Dom/Beto as possible
Anyway I don’t think Dyche is the right guy for the job. Just my opinion but who is. That’s the big question. Oh and Goodison needs an injection of happiness, maybe a few bags of skittles for everyone to get the sugar flowing. So Dychey pull your finger out of your arse and watch some videos of what Carlo did with just as shit a bunch of players. COYB
Chris Leyland
246 Posted 01/10/2023 at 08:32:21
The full backs are too narrow and are always tucking in leaving space out wide. This eeems particularly accute in home games.

We have no threat on the flanks. We have wingers in the squad but Dyche insists on playing Garner in right mid. This would be fine if we had over-lapping fullbacks but neither offer anything going forward.

We don’t appear to know how to defend against set pieces. I don’t know if they don’t practice to defend them but it certainly looks that way. The first from the corner came just after Luton had free headers from two previous corners yet the players did nothing to sort themselves out other than point at each other. The second goal was criminal amateurism allowing their centre forward to be unmarked.

When we get a corner we might as well just tap it out for a goal kick to save a bit of time. The inability to beat the first man is shameful. Again, do they not practice in training?

Dyche appears to have no clue what to do if we go behind at home. Sticking Beto alongside Calvert-Lewin and the two of them occupying the same space and going for the same hopeful Pickford punts isn’t going to work.

Players seem to play within themselves and don’t ever try anything brave. Onana is one of the worst offenders. He occupies a small area of the middle just passing it safely sideways or backwards. He never turns or runs with it despite having the ability to do so. Is this him operating under tactical instruction?

Rob Jones
247 Posted 01/10/2023 at 08:32:35
We play like an away side at Goodison. That's the crux of the problem. Instead of trying to take games by the scruff, we play defensive formations, fill the midfield with plodders, and marginalise what little creativity we have.

Our away form since Dyche came in has actually been very respectable. Villa and Arsenal away games aside, the results have been good, and the points total more than adequate.

But Dyche is cowardly at home, to the point of his tactics being contemptible. Goodison isn't the problem. The manager is, along with the complete lack of imagination and courage he shows in team selection.

(I'll add, for balance, that the fact our players missed at least three complete fucking sitters yesterday did nothing to help)

Pete Neilson
248 Posted 01/10/2023 at 08:32:57
It’s not Goodison. It’s no leadership at the club, an average manager and a below average squad. BMD is a distraction at best, a significant cause at worst.
Anthony A Hughes
249 Posted 01/10/2023 at 08:39:02
On paper (i know, I know,) Dyche has the best pool of players to pick from in recent years and yes that's not to say we have a great squad but he should be getting more from what he has.

The constant playing of Garner out wide affects the balance of the team in his desire to squeeze his favourites Gana and Onana in the middle.

Play Garner in the middle (he's the closest thing to a playmaker we have) with Gana to do the hatchet work and put Doucoure in Onana's role, at least he has a goal in him, Onana doesn't seem to do anything to affect a game.

Patterson needs to start ahead of Young purely for his youthful energy to get up and down the flank, he will only improve with game time.

DCL or Beto up top and Harrison and Danjuma in the wide forward positions.

McNeill can be interchangeable with Doucoure in a more No10 role as an option.

Dave Abrahams
250 Posted 01/10/2023 at 08:50:59
David (188),I refrained fro having a go at Onana in my earlier post because I’ve had too many posts stating my dislike of his performances: After the first twenty minutes of this game when we never took a few chances to score and then Luton did, twice from very poor defensive play and Onana played a decent part in the earlier play, he did nothing after that and reverted to his usual style of play, when Insaw Harrison come on at half time on his own, at first, then getting ready with the trainer I thought he’s coming on for Onana, but no he came on for Gana Gueye, that was the energy of the central midfield gone, Gana gets plenty of stick on here but to me he is absolutely needed more than what Onana offers, hardly anything after half time when his awkwardness and clumsy way of going into tackles was very apparent, taking the easy way out with his four yard passes sideways and backwards passing, although there were two or three long passes to Harrison but very obvious passes to make.

Onana has all the tools in his work box to become this fabulous player of the future, unfortunately he doesn’t know how or when to use them, he is on the periphery of the game most of the time and although there were a lot of other players and the manager to blame, when Onana is like this we are playing with ten men.

I noticed he was doing his parading walk about after the game and was the last player to leave the field, I don’t know what he was thinking, after that performance I’d have been glad to get off the field.

Geoff Williams
251 Posted 01/10/2023 at 09:10:22
Worryingly yet another poor performance by Everton. They started well but once Luton scored the confidence started to drain away and when the second went in belief was seriously ebbing away and despite Calvert-Lewin's scrappy goal I couldn't see Everton scoring another two for the victory.
With Davies and Iwobi gone and Keane no longer a regular it seems Gana Gueye is the new target for many supporters. Pickford is starting to worry me with his arm waving and constant criticism of others. I will be very surprised if Beto becomes a regular player as his touch is awful and the Everton approach of booting the ball doesn't suit him despite his size he needs balls to run on to. By Christmas he may prove me wrong or become Niasse mark2.
My criticism is aimed at Dyche and his coaches. The way Everton set up to defend set pieces is so amateurish. As for kick-offs I've yet to see us retain possession after the ball is played back to Tarkowski to boot the ball to the left wing. As for attacking setpieces lacking a player who can deliver consistent delivery and is a distinct disadvantage. Where are the options?
The inability to win at home against teams likely to be in the relegation battle doesn't bode well for Everton. I really fear for Everton's future off and on the field
Chris Leyland
254 Posted 01/10/2023 at 09:13:03
After Bournemouth next sat our run of home fixtures are:
Man U
Man City
It’s quite conceivable to believe that we could reach the end of that run with no home wins
Richard Nelson
255 Posted 01/10/2023 at 09:13:27
..surely the banner headline should have read.."chances squandered aplenty as lowly dilutional Everton embarrassed by lowly Luton"
Joe McMahon
256 Posted 01/10/2023 at 09:20:34
Chris@254, and as my wife informed me yesterday Burnley have had those fixtures already. Come December Burnley nevermind Forrest will be above Everton.
Dyche is the final nail in the coffin of Kenwrights Good Times. The football is 70s hoof, he knows no other way.
Mark Ryan
257 Posted 01/10/2023 at 09:27:03
777 came to watch the game yesterday. I hope they were scratching their heads when they left like we were. Dyche has to be replaced. We have some decent players. They need a fresh impetus from a better manager. He's a stuck record. He bores the arse off me just listening to him. He's hardly an inspiration to play for is he. Won fuck all. Scraped a living at Burnley playing dour football. EFC we need to change the record. Thanks Sean but enough is enough and get Jimmy G back in the centre of the park ffs
Danny O’Neill
258 Posted 01/10/2023 at 09:38:19
I think that's a totally fair assessment of Onana Dave. He frustrates more than he pleases.

As you allude to, he's got the ability, he just needs to find consistency and stop drifting out of games.

I'm sure he will, but maybe it won't be with Everton.

Also your point about Gueye. Even at 33 (or 34), he works his socks off. He's never going to be a playmaker, but he breaks play up for others to retain possession and take the game.

Scratched record time. Play Garner central.

To your point about taking him off. It's most likely that Dyche's tactic of the long punt from Pickford or Tarkowski meant he favoured having big players on the pitch?

Another thought. Beto looks good for a hold up and knock on centre forward. But he could do with thinking back to what we were taught as 10 year olds. If you are forward, head it down. In defence it is height and distance.

As for Ashley Young. I praised him midweek. Yesterday, I don't know what such an experienced player was doing for one of their goals. He should have got that high and then we can deal with the second ball.

I guess it's difficult to criticise in the speed of the moment, but he gifted it to them.

Onto Bournemouth and break this season's Goodison curse.

Kunal Desai
259 Posted 01/10/2023 at 09:39:19
Yesterdays result also proves that even with two fully fit strikers in the squad those Fulham and Wolves results would not have been an different. Chances were created yesteday, Beto had two headers which he failed to get on target.

Dyche may have also played a system where we wouldn't have created those missed chances had DCL and Beto been available.

So we stop going on about "should have would have" yielded 3 points against Fulham and Wolves. Facts are we got 0.

David Bromwell
260 Posted 01/10/2023 at 09:39:43
What a terrible day, made worse because we all expected our recent good form to continue, and in fairness it had all started so well, we passed the ball and had numerous shots at their goal. So what went wrong ? Well we stopped playing football and reverted to are usual hoof ball to somewhere in the vicinity of DCL. We looked vulnerable every time they had a corner, and the Managers changes simply added to our loss of shape and confidence.
Obviously we should not have lost this game with the number of chances we had and I believe things got worse when Gueye was taken off at half time. Prior to that we were working the ball through midfield and although he is no longer the player he was he makes himself available and is constantly on the move. Once he went off the midfield ceased as a unit, and thanks largely to Pickford we simply bypassed it kicking long balls to DCL and Beto, who hardly looked like a partnership in the making.
My mates know I have never been a fan of our goalkeeper. Yes he makes regular great saves but his temperament always concerns me as I think he unsettles his team mates and his famed distribution when he plays for us is erratic and boring. He is also very static when we have to defend corners which I think as a team has become one of our Achilles heals.
So, another opportunity next week ? We have certainly got a group of hard working players, but the Manager has got to allow them to play football and introduce some composure in their play. If he can do that maybe are results will improve and we will begin to win matches when we are clearly the better team.

Ray Robinson
261 Posted 01/10/2023 at 09:48:39
I’m not for sacking Dyche - yet, but his bullshitting is starting to resemble the phenomenal Roberto.

His tactics and team selections at home are extremely dubious. Doucoure and DCL were attacking the same ball in the first half, DCL and Neto the same in the second. Gana and Onana duplicating roles, fullbacks tucking in so near the centre backs that there’s always acres of space down the flanks.

However, the players have to take some blame. Over 20 shots, one scrappy goal and the Luton goalie totally untested. Did he make a single save? Dire dead balls, corners, crosses, poor first touches. Terrible shooting. All down to the players.

It’s pure self inflicted torture watching Everton.

Ted Roberts
262 Posted 01/10/2023 at 09:53:26
So many frustrating reasons for this result. How can they play so well and be so effective against Brentford and Villa and then put in a performance like this? Is it because of a collective mental block after missing 4/5 glaring scoring chances that resulted in the “shit, we're not going to score again today” belief?

Grow some balls lads, fight back when the terriers are nipping at your heels, or don't you read the press or supporters comments. The whole feckin world is laughing at you and relishing seeing us in a relegation dogfight yet again, maybe this time to come worst off.

You need to morally and passionately take on board that the only people who can score/stop goals is you, not Sean Dyche or the Blue Army, but YOU. Get a grip, feckin believe you can do it and maybe, just maybe, we may see things turn in our favour.You have shown you can do it, just make it happen with guts, belief and balls.

Jerome Shields
263 Posted 01/10/2023 at 09:54:08
Actually starting with Calvert Lewin was a mistake.He does not provide the shape to the team that Beto does and allows the opposition defensive line to push up and compact midfield. What Luton did to Everton, was a often used lower Club table plan, with the same consistent result.
Jim Wilson
264 Posted 01/10/2023 at 09:55:13
Dave @ 250 - spot on mate. What you say below is absolutely what the problem is with the team at the moment but some people either can't see it or refuse to see it. And Dyche is one of them.

'Gana gets plenty of stick on here but to me he is absolutely needed more than what Onana offers, hardly anything after half time when his awkwardness and clumsy way of going into tackles was very apparent, taking the easy way out with his four yard passes sideways and backwards passing, although there were two or three long passes to Harrison but very obvious passes to make.
Onana has all the tools in his work box to become this fabulous player of the future, unfortunately he doesn’t know how or when to use them, he is on the periphery of the game most of the time and although there were a lot of other players and the manager to blame, when Onana is like this we are playing with ten men.'

Michael Kenrick
265 Posted 01/10/2023 at 10:04:13
Richard @255,

Surely the banner headline should have read.."Chances squandered aplenty as lowly dilutional Everton embarrassed by lowly Luton"

Thank you for the suggestion. The second 'lowly' was clearly a bad miss. Call it my Beto moment.

Erm... 'dilutional'… What is that...?

Risk of being washed away?
Reduced in strength??
The Solution to Pollution is Dilution???

That last one could apply to Dyche the Douche… I can't watch his pre- or post-match "noise" anymore. I think he's finally beginning to get on my tender and very frayed nerves.

Daniel A Johnson
266 Posted 01/10/2023 at 10:09:54
You look to the touch line and you have Dyche speaking through his hand to an overwhelmed Ian Woane and an always grinning and nodding Steve Stone. They are fucking clueless, even the training looks like some school PE setup circa 1985.

Yesterday was a fucking disgrace the team setup and body language was just wrong. It's all on Dyche and his yes men.

We've lost at home to Wolves, Fulham and Luton. People say we can't afford to sack Dyche well we can't afford to keep him either. The more I hear him speak his pseudo zen tough man routine the more he annoys me. His bullshit bingo needs calling out now.

Sean Dyche that performance was a fucking disgrace get the fuck out of EFC now.

Pete Neilson
267 Posted 01/10/2023 at 10:20:08
September 1958, no wonder I couldn’t remember last time we lost four consecutive home games. Poor record to equal, don’t want to surpass it with Bournemouth.
Allan Board
268 Posted 01/10/2023 at 10:21:32
Dyche League record at Everton P25 W6 D 7 lost 12. And let's be honest- he has had some easy games to win in that.
Trundling along to his historical career average of getting 33% of the points available to him. Problem is, he is now on the downward trajectory- his best days of acceptable mediocrity at Burnley are long gone.
When his Burnley team stuck 2 fingers up to him and played open-they looked decent- but he soon ground that out of them at training the following week- and sure enough the usual drab,negative, percentage football returned- and they lost again.
He is too regimented, plays percentage football as he doesn't trust players to manage a game themselves. He is too fond of his own voice,and this transmits to his coaching.
Footballers are,by and large a bit thick and lacking in attention span- if you gabble on too much in training/ tactics they WILL tune out! The best coaches use each players best attributes and blend the football to suit them, makes them feel confident and included.
Dyche ball won't get you mid table.,let alone top 8.
It will guarantee another relegation fight though.
If that's the sum total of fans aspirations- then you crack on with this fella- because it ain't ever gonna change with him in charge. Perhaps Graham Potter should have been a consideration to come in during the summer? I would just like to see an Everton side play football again without constant coach intervention, screaming at players and the awful ABC method of Dyche and his contemporaries- if your players know you trust them 100%, they will stick together, manage games themselves and win games for you.
My final thought- I don't remember Howard Kendall screaming instructions from the sidelines at players, sat down taking the game in most of the time and analysing how it was going. He did his talking at half time, if required. But, then again, he trusted his players and that encouraged leaders,of which his best teams had 5 or 6.
Dyche doesn't promote leaders- only followers. He has had lots of easy games to win and failed miserably- forget last season- this fella is just a bottom feeder. It's in the balance already, whether Everton stay in this league- 7 bloody games in,and the tone is set. Graham Potter is out of work and has an itch to scratch,and a point to prove.
Rob Halligan
269 Posted 01/10/2023 at 10:27:33
The only good thing about yesterday was speaking to Jarrad Branthwaites dad in the Harlech before the game, who had travelled down from Cumbria with Keith Harrison, a contributor on here, and knows Jarrads dad well.

Obviously, the most intriguing question to ask was would Jarrad be staying or going? His dad said he wants to stay, as he loves being around the group of players that he plays with…..though after yesterday, and indeed, all our home games so far, that could be debatable.

But…….there’s always a but………what he’s been offered by the club regards a new contract, is not good enough, and so far two offers been rejected. We really need to offer him a contract deemed acceptable to him, because in a couple of years, he is going to be worth a fortune to us, should we eventually decide to cash in. I said to his dad, that Jarrad could easily be in the Bobby Moore and Franz Beckenbauer school of defending, because he really could be that good.

So come on Everton, give him what he wants, or at least something acceptable, otherwise we are going to lose him for buttons.

Mick O'Malley
270 Posted 01/10/2023 at 10:35:02
Allan@268, I couldn’t agree more, and his constant harping on about The XG stat, it’s absolutely meaningless, we can’t keep clean sheets, he never takes any responsibility for the defeats, those 2 wins on the road were anomalies and what we got served up yesterday was standard Dyche football, I honestly can’t wait to see the back of him, there was a reason no other club employed him after Burnley jibbed him, trust our clueless custodians to employ another dinosaur, we’ve lost 7 out of the last 8 at home, we have scored one scruffy goal at home, if we lose at home again next week he’s gotta go as far as I’m concerned
Brian Harrison
271 Posted 01/10/2023 at 10:36:00
Yesterdays defeat means this is the worst start we have made to a season in over 60 years, and what makes this stat even worse is 3 of the sides we have lost to at home will probably be in the bottom 6 clubs come the end of the season. We started the game very confidently but once Luton scored you could see the heads go down a bit and when the 2nd went in we lost all composure for about 10 minutes. But we recovered our composure and started to play and put Luton under all sorts of pressure till we eventually scored. I think most of the crowd realized that keep on playing like that in the 2nd half and the goals will come.
But little did we know that Dyche was to make his worst decision for a long while, he takes off Gueye who was by far our most energetic midfield player who was the main force in picking up the ball and take the game to the opposition. And he brought on Harrison to replace a centre midfield player with a wide player, and moved Garner inside alongside Onana. This completely unbalanced the team to such an extent that all the energy that we had towards the end of the 1st half had gone and we became a side who thought the best way to break Luton down was to launch long ball after long ball toward DCL. McNeil who had been very creative and influential in the 1st half barely got a kick in the 2nd half with this new formation. There was no build up through midfield in fact our midfield became non effective and later in the game he subbed McNeil and later Doucoure and introduced Beto and Danjuma, which just seem to encourage us to hit everything long. Their keeper didnt have a shot to save in the 2nd half we were that poor. While Luton worked their socks off I cant see them winning to many more away games.

I would just like to say that everything that Dave Abrahams said in his post 250 about Onana were my thoughts exactly.

Also I wonder what Patterson is thinking he has seen the manager prefer a slowing 38 year old to replace him and when our 36 year old captain is fit he will continue as our captain which we badly need. So I think if you cant get in a side with a 38 and 36 year old ahead of you, then you should be looking to move in Jan.

Sean O’Hanlon
272 Posted 01/10/2023 at 10:36:33
Was the terrible marking for their second goal down to Kenwright? Was it down to Dyche? No it wasn't. It was down to players losing focus, and forgetting how to do the basics - and I'm talking about international players.
We have to accept that the Luton game is the norm. The Brentford and Villa victories were fortuitous.
The laws of probability(for EFC) will confirm 100 passes may result in half a dozen being good; a 100 attempts on goal, 3 or 4 will hit the target etc. This is what happened in the Brentford & Villa games. We got lucky. And every so often, these games may occur again, if we're lucky. We have to accept reality: no focus, no consistency, no passion, no nothing! Is it the manager? We've tried a few in the past. I sincerely believe, the club no longer has the ability to stay in Premiership.
Mark Ryan
273 Posted 01/10/2023 at 10:36:46
We left Frank too long. Don't make the same mistake. I fear we might. Unless 777 intervene we are going to be rock-bottom at Xmas and sides down there at Xmas rarely recover. Act now. We have the players now to survive this season. Survive we must. Dyche out
Dave Lynch
274 Posted 01/10/2023 at 10:41:23
Couple of things.
Dyche reminds me of a politician whos been caught doing something dodgy in a house of ill repute, stumbling over his words and waffling bullshit.
The other thing...what the fuck is XG? Someone please tell me.
Tony Abrahams
275 Posted 01/10/2023 at 10:42:36
Shocking statistics those regarding Dyche’s, Everton record, and only really defendable because he kept us up last season, when we were absolutely on our knees, imo.

I’m also not sure if Dyche only promotes leaders rather than followers Allan, because there was genuinely a few times that we never saw eye to eye, but he still invited me into finch farm the other week. (Maybe I’ve fell for it like a naive fool, and I’m defending the indefensible!)

I think one of our major problems is that other than Seamus, we don’t have any natural leaders, and I think Howard Kendall had a similar problem before he brought in Andy Grey, and started playing Peter Reid, and these two players started to help bring out their own leadership qualities, into others?

I honestly don’t think any manager will be successful at Everton, the way the club currently operates, so the day we are sold to people with a real genuine plan, can’t come quick enough for me.

Barry Hesketh
276 Posted 01/10/2023 at 11:03:48
I wonder if Pep ever utters the words "just look at the XG, man, it's up there with the best!" No, of course he doesn't, no team has won something by purely having a superior XG, no team has been relegated because its XG was inferior.

Points, points, points is all that matters, all of the other statistics, are meaningless, and of no use to anybody, whether teams are looking to avoid the drop or win a trophy.

If a team is averaging a point a game, it will constantly be looking over its shoulder with trepidation, Dyche's Everton, this season, is currently averaging 0.57 which if it continued for the whole campaign would result in less than 25 points. We need to put points on the board more regularly and stop losing matches so easily.

David West
277 Posted 01/10/2023 at 11:07:28
Dave 250.. I've noticed your previous comments on Onana. I think Dyche has forgotten how young he is. He needs a break in my opinion.
Yesterday first half Gana was most effective cm player. We know he has his off days but I don't belive Yesterday was one of them.

I thought Harrison for Onana would have been better, Gana, Garner with dacoure pushing on I thought he would have even given it 10 minutes after half time to see if we could continue the momentum we had at the end of first half.

I do belive its players attitudes and application that's lost us the points. Apart from Patterson it's pretty much the team I'd have picked, which should have beaten Luton.

Andy Mead
278 Posted 01/10/2023 at 11:11:53
Don't know where to start. We had so much of the ball but Onana and Gaye just happy to go for the simple sideways ball.
So easy to defend against. O'NEIL is the only one trying to make things happen,Harrison when he came on tried but he was offered no support. I mentioned that I brought my partner over from Australia who knows nothing about football and even she said to me "why are they passing the ball back to the goalie all the time, their goal is the other end"
Sums Everton up perfectly. If you have no creativity,Garner aside, then passing back to Pickford to welly it from your own area is just not going to work, but that's all we do.
DCL and Beto played like they had just met in the car park before the game. Luton played simple championship football,long balls down the channel but they got in behind us every time. Then just sat back and defended as they knew we couldn't break them down. Our play is boring and easy to defend against. 4 home defeats out of 4 is bottom of the league form, never mind relegation. There are not 3 worst teams then is in this division if things continue as they are. We have decent players, but Gana,Onana and Decoure cannot play as a midfield trio again. No creativity. Might as well go 4-4-2 and bang it long,as that's what we do with those 3 anyway. Lovely trip to Liverpool, shame about the game. EVERTON THAT!
Steve Brown
279 Posted 01/10/2023 at 11:13:28
I fear Dyche went from hero back to zero yesterday.
Tony Abrahams
280 Posted 01/10/2023 at 11:24:16
It would be easy for me to jump on that post Rob, and say that this is exactly what I was going on about when writing my last paragraph@275, mate, but first you would have to know, how much Everton have offered him?

I spoke to Jarrod’s dad, very briefly, and my first impression was that he his just very much like all of us, a normal down to earth man, who looked absolutely delighted to be having a few pints, before going to see his son playing football, in the EPL.

We all see things differently, but Brainthwaith’s agent, will obviously know how much wages he can get for him at certain other clubs, so Everton, will obviously have to match this, otherwise the kid will definitely be off.

Maybe Everton will also know how much they can get for him? Someone sent a Watsapp the other day, with a picture of Wayne Rooney, and the caption what would you give for another one of these right now? I wish we had never had him, was my reply, because he enabled an absolute curse to remain in charge of Everton FC.

It’s all Wayne Rooney’s fault, what a talent, but a talent that ended up helping the devil, absolutely curse our football club, for nearly another twenty fucking years.

Oliver Molloy
281 Posted 01/10/2023 at 11:27:19
Dyche is already under serious pressure, lose to Bournemouth and it could be all over.
Like others I'm getting fed up with the same stuff he comes out with every week, it's like the football he plays.

Rob @ 269, out of curiousity what do think Branthwaite is worth and what do you think would be a an acceptable increase on his current 15k contract.

Rob Halligan
282 Posted 01/10/2023 at 11:31:28
All this talk about do we or don’t we sack Dyche. He was never my first choice in the first place, but City wouldn’t let Pep go!! Can we afford to sack Dyche, No! Can we afford not to sack Dyche, who knows, that’s in the future and whether we stay up or not?

Also who would ultimately be responsible for pulling the trigger on Dyche? It can’t be 777, because at the moment they have no connection whatsoever with the club, other than being future owners. It should be Moshiri, but it sounds he has completely given up, and wants nothing more to do with us. Can Kenwright, as chairman, be the person responsible, and if he is, would it also be him responsible for appointing a new manager?

Depressing times, and I feel Dyche will be here until at least the new year, and if 777 do get the nod, what is their knowledge on potential new managers, or will they stick with Dyche?

Lots of questions, but seemingly no answers!

Christopher Timmins
283 Posted 01/10/2023 at 11:35:05
There is no doubt that the manager goes into next weekend under pressure after yesterday's performance and result. He should run with the following 11 for the month of October and hopefully, a settled team will help bring about more consistent performances.


David West
284 Posted 01/10/2023 at 11:36:13
Give Jarred 35 - 40k a week its a 3rd of what we paid gomes or Gabamin and he's already played more games this season than both has in about 4 years for us. If he wants 50k give him it !!!

It's likely he won't be with us for the full length of a 5 year deal anyway. He will be a 50m player in couple of years.
I mean if the club don't see the value in keeping this lad, then we might as well pull the curtains down on the whole operation.

Frank Crewe
285 Posted 01/10/2023 at 11:40:13
"what do you think would be a an acceptable increase on his current 15k contract."
Get rid of Gomes and give his wages to Branthwaite on a long contract. It's the only way we're going to keep him. He's the best homegrown player we've had in years by a mile and he's English. He's another John Stones and I have no doubt all the top clubs in England and Europe are currently keeping tabs on him.
Jimmy Carr
286 Posted 01/10/2023 at 11:59:22
That was depressing.

So having read the comments onto the game. Well, that was equally grim. I only listened to it and suffered through reading the Live Forum. I'm kind of glad I'm not watching much Everton at the moment, which says everything really.

I was beginning to think Dyche was a canny manager after the last two results, then this happens. He keeps playing the same defensively minded players/formations at home. Results more than suggest it's time to change the record.

Part of this is also on the players. So calls to 'sack the manager' don't resonate with me at the moment, but between management and players we have to do better.

I'm not suggesting playing Garner in central midfield will solve everything either. It's naive to think so, but Dyche has to do something different at home, and do it quick. (There were numerous calls to play Calvert Lewin and Beto up front together, well he did a bit of that yesterday and it didn't sound any better, Beto, whatever.)

If the manager continues to stick with his current methods at home, we could be in even worst trouble. He needs to show some imagination with tactics and starting eleven in the next match.

Kevin Molloy
287 Posted 01/10/2023 at 12:00:23
Frank, the fact he's still on 15k a week tells you all you need to know. A week after Newcastle offer him £120k we'll confirm to the press our offer of £60, and off in January he'll go like all the others. No doubt we'll release a couple of stories about how we feel 'let down'
Tony Everan
288 Posted 01/10/2023 at 12:08:51
Losing 7 out of 8 home games is a shocking statistic for Everton Football Club. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was unprecedented.

On the flip side, winning 2 of our last 3 games is very good form, both games we exceeded expectations and on both occasions looked much the better side. These were not lucky wins by any means.

It points to the issue of how we set up for home games. We set up conservatively with the objective first and foremost not to lose. With the hope that we are the ones who grab the all important goal.

The problem is that hard working lower teams like Luton can dig in, do their homework on set pieces and be the ones who grab the goal. Then we are left floundering trying to attack and win with a defensive set up.

Yesterday and going forward at home we have to be more attacking and creative minded from the off. Garner, Onana the central midfield two with Doucoure advanced . Harrison and MCNeil wider providing ammunition for Calvert-Lewin.

I thought Dyche bottled out by cramming the midfield using Gueye yesterday forcing the best creative outlet Garner out wider. It diminishes our attacking threat down the right too.

If the manager can be a bit more attack minded at home he will get the rewards. The motto has to be applied for home matches is ’ Fortune Favours the Bold’. Or ‘Bald’ in Mr Dyche’s case.

Dale Self
290 Posted 01/10/2023 at 12:11:52
Not to stir it up as I think we’ve all had enough of that but here is my take on the debacle. Dyche probably saw enough improvement to install an initial rotation to avoid injuries. He gambled on keeping it close to the vest on tactics/selection and just beating Luton in an old school fashion. He obviously overestimated the response to recent form and the usual suspects reverted to shite.

We need the players selected to be productive at some point this season and fuck man, you would think Luton would be that opportunity. While we all say it was predictable it was still a necessary gamble for the long term. I totally see the wisdom of ‘get 3 from the most likely matches’ but again this is also the chance to rest key players and build others up.

I got nothing for that second half response. The mentality comments address that and it is a drag that didn’t leave with the transfer departures.

Allan Board
291 Posted 01/10/2023 at 12:23:41
A rubbish tradesmen always blames his tools or the materials- never his fault is it?
He sets the team up- he decides the tactics- he instills how he wants to play. If his training /practices in accumulation are not an exact replication of game day- then yes, players will play like yesterday- he can't whinge on about XG and other various, quite frankly weird statements and expect me to buy it.
It's strange how other teams inefficiencies are blamed on manager's, not players by other teams supporters.
He,like a lot of sports coaches, needs help,but is too stubborn to admit and ask for it, rather hiding behind XG(someone please explain it to me!) - like a politician who just relies on data. Nice bloke I'm sure, but his judgement and any football nous he has, is being tied down by this ridiculous use of statistics and if I'm honest pretentious rubbish he talks.
So many tiny details make up a game of football- the trick is to see through that and concentrate on balance, shape, awareness, movement and leaders.
It really isn't rocket science- but that's what he's making it out to be.
Dave Abrahams
292 Posted 01/10/2023 at 12:23:52
Well, Jarred Branthwaite is only on £15,000 per week, that has got Kenwright's fingerprints all over it. He is the most valuable player on the books.

He won't be here all that long so give him a 5-year contract at £60k a week, more if we can afford it. He will fetch upwards of £75M, which his performances are showing now, in the next transfer windows.

If I was his agent, I would be pressing Everton for a huge lift in his wages. Then again, the longer Everton leave it, the less we will get for him and the more Jarrad's agent will be able to ask his new club for, and the lad will have his pick of clubs where he wants to go to.

Tom Bowers
293 Posted 01/10/2023 at 12:40:31
Andy Mead #278, you are so right.

I agree entirely about those three as our midfield. It just doesn't work. They don't have a decent tackle between them and working as a tight unit is negligible.

Sure when they are in possession they don't look poor and Doucoure does pop in the odd goal but whatever else they are is not good enough.

Dyche must take the blame. He doesn't seem to recognize this as being the crux of the problem but maybe he is under pressure to start them as big wage earners.

Luton just outmuscled Everton in that first 30 minutes which was scary and I for one could see they were going to score first but the second so quickly was a shocker. The left-back was totally asleep.

Lee Robinson
294 Posted 01/10/2023 at 12:40:59
Watching other teams have a plan and a philosophy over the weekend and seeing our game with long balls constantly into the box is a disgrace in the modern game and is on the manager.

We wanted a right back for years and now we have a young athletic, attacking and promising one and he is sat on the bench for a 38-year-old who hasn't had a good game all season, gave the corner away, and his reaction was fault for the goal.

There is some technical ability in that side, Garner, McNeal, Harrison, Onana and Danjuma who a good coach should be able to manipulate a better game plan.

I must say I was concerned last week during the Brentford game when, every time the defence had the ball Dyche on the sideline was shouting to hit it long to Beto, it worked a few times but should never be a game plan.

Frank was getting pelters from the media constantly, and would be after this result but Dyche escapes criticism from the press. At least I could see what Frank was trying to do, maybe if he had the options Dyche has, things might have been different… who knows?

Frank Crewe
295 Posted 01/10/2023 at 12:50:09
Really it's our own fault. Everton do this constantly but we keep walking into it.

They're struggling and we're on our way out. Then they unexpectedly win a game or two and they draw us back in. Our hopes are rising again that maybe this time it will be real. and the BAM!!! Sucker punched right on the chin yet again and down we go.

A pathetic home defeat against arguably the worst side in the Premier League that is yet to win a match. Should we beat Bournemouth next week, no doubt we'll be sticking our chins out again for the derby. When in reality we know that Everton have about as much chance of beating Liverpool as Les Dennis does of winning this year's Strictly.

If baseless optimism won matches, we would be the Premier League runaway leaders.

Charles Brewer
296 Posted 01/10/2023 at 13:02:04
This Everton team has got one above-average player, and he's the goalkeeper so he has less influence on bringing about a win than anyone else in the entire squad.

The team that Dyche took over was lazy and unfit and, partly as a result unmotivated (apart from Richarlison, but Bill cashed him in).

The Brentford game, however, suddenly exposed a new fitter team, which successfully showed that energy and fitness could replace, to some significant degree, talent and defensive organisation.

The Villa game not only confirmed this, but showed that, when the old approach was reintroduced, everything went to pieces and the opposition scored.

The first 15 minutes yesterday were a dilute version of the Villa and Brentford games, after which GamePlan 1 was brought back. “Let them have the ball, defend deep, don't bother chasing their attackers and above all, don't harry the man with the ball.”

We aren't Man City, we aren't Arsenal, we aren't even Spurs. We have to come up with an alternative to skill, talent, organisation and managerial competence and hope that if Gana, Onana, Beto, Doucouré shoot often enough, a deflection will send the ball past their goalkeeper. Fitness, energy and pressure are the only hope.

Ernie Baywood
297 Posted 01/10/2023 at 13:03:13
If there's a plus... I don't think I'm ever going to have read phrases like "Dyche tells it like it is" on here anymore.

I stand by my early assessment of Dyche, for which I've copped plenty on here:

1. We didn't need a defensive coach, we needed someone who could improve our goal output, and he's never been that guy.

2. He's massively out of his depth and uses his press conferences to desperately try to show how smart, analytical and in control he is.

3. He's an outright weirdo. And a bit of a nob.

I'll go a step further and say I hold him complicit in last year's transfer window that could have been so disastrous for this club. That's why we have him – he was prepared to defend the club's lack of willingness to invest in the sinking ship. In exchange, they gave him a big wage and delayed his appointment so he wasn't blamed for the lack of incoming players.

Dyche will never represent progress. He represents the very worst of this club.

Still, at least he stuck it to that sissy Calvert-Lewin. Told it like it is, or was (actually it wasn't – turned out it wasn't just mental when he played him for an hour and then we lost him for most of the season).

Colin Malone
298 Posted 01/10/2023 at 13:09:16
Same old. Same old, Same old. No plan B.
Why play our best midfielder on the wing?
Then when you change Garner to the middle, He put him deep, as a defensive midfielder.
My main point. Why play, IMOP, a defensive midfielder, with loads of energy, in the number 10 role?
Why play a player, who has no energy, in the middle of midfield?
Doucoure is no number 10. He would be better in a deeper role.
Onana has not got the energy for a deep midfielder, but has the guile to be given a go in the number 10 role.
Swap them over ASAP.
But certainly, get a proper number 10 in the side.
I can't see AllerDyche changing it. Sweat come before skill.
David West
299 Posted 01/10/2023 at 13:13:14
The thing with Branthwaite is, if he went to Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea or Newcastle, he probably won't be a regular starter. It could ruin his development. The lad needs to play every match now at his age, we will be willing to let him make mistakes and still play him every week. Would they at Man Utd or Chelsea?? Probably not!

If he really wants to go to the top, playing every week now, at this age, will be the best thing for him... get more money from Everton, loads more, but get the game time and in 2 years he'll be getting £250k a week, he's that good.

He's probably looking at Onana's £100k a week and thinking "Yeah, I deserve more, which in fairness he's proved.

This contract situation could be more important to Everton than any other incoming or outgoing transfers for a long time.
It will be very interesting to see how it plays out.

Barry Hesketh
300 Posted 01/10/2023 at 13:44:17
Dave @289
Could you please expand on this news? Who has imposed this transfer ban on 777? How do you even impose a transfer ban on an owner?
Craig Walker
301 Posted 01/10/2023 at 13:45:02
Ernie, calling Calvert Lewin a “sissy”. Really? Is that how low we go now? Our manager is “a weirdo and a nob”.

I know supporting Everton is a never ending nightmare but do we have to resort to phrases like this about our own manager and players? No wonder they call us “bitter Blues”.

Rob Halligan
302 Posted 01/10/2023 at 14:01:22
Barry # 300…the transfer embargo has been placed on one particular club, Vasco De Gama, due to late payments of transfer fees………..

club run by prospective new Everton owners 777 Partners has been placed under a transfer embargo over outstanding debt. Brazilian side Vasco da Gama has been banned from registering new players until the debt is settled.

Oliver Molloy
303 Posted 01/10/2023 at 14:02:26
Are you praising Kenwright for the astute business or being sarcastic ?
I would be very surprised if the club decided or had to cash in Branthwaite the figure you mention would be achieved.
Football is going mad alright but 75 million !

It seems the scouting team deserve praise for Branthwaite ending up with us and hopefully whatever happens the club will make a few quid - odds on, as others have mentioned, if he keeps maturing and getting better he will indeed be moving on - It will be to Man City I think.

Barry Hesketh
304 Posted 01/10/2023 at 14:05:24
Rob @302
Thanks for that, so it only applies to one club, but it still doesn't reflect well on our prospective new owners does it?
Dave Abrahams
305 Posted 01/10/2023 at 14:13:40
Oliver (303), Definitely not praising Kenwright Oliver, but pointing out he is a skinflint, or he was before he got his hands on Moshiri/ Usmanov’s money.

I was remembering when he got Gosling or his agent to make a verbal agreement to sign later in the year before signing a new contract, his contract finished in July that year, Gosling promptly signed for Newcastle Unt. That delay by Kenwright trying to save Everton FC paying wages for about three months cost Everton around £3M, the estimated value of Gosling at the time, looks like the same thing is happening here or we simply have run out of cash.

Rob Halligan
306 Posted 01/10/2023 at 14:14:36
It doesn't, Barry, but this transfer embargo would not affect us. This independent commission tribunal later this month might though.
Paul Smith
307 Posted 01/10/2023 at 14:35:24
Yesterday was a shock. At one point, with 5 minutes to go, our defence had the ball and was running back towards Pickford in a line because of a loose backpass under no pressure at all and actually looked like they were attacking their own goal, it was mental.

Then they lumped it forward to no-one in particular. I thought they literally don't know what they're doing.

Barry Hesketh
308 Posted 01/10/2023 at 14:38:44
Tony @288
It's not unprecedented as between the back end of 1957/58 and the start of 1958/59 Everton lost seven home league games on the spin.

In the Premier League period we have done a few, six out of eight game losses.

Martinez's team were one, between December 2015 and March 2016.

Once again Everton lost six out of eight, between October 2021 to March 2022, under Benitez, Ferguson and Lampard.

Kendall plus Gabriel's Everton also lost six out of eight, between September 1993 and January 1994.

It's totally depressing how many 'records' Moshiri's Everton have demolished in the last few years and none of them positive ones. It's almost as depressing as listening to the commentary of the Forest v Brentford game, and their continuing expression of surprise that Everton managed to beat the Bees, we have fallen so far, it's totally incomprehensible.

Mick Davies
309 Posted 01/10/2023 at 14:51:33
The most worrying aspect of Dyche's prezzers are his constant references to the Fulham and Wolves games. Now these are history, and we LOST them both, but he keeps harping on about this XG shit, and how we could have scored a bagful!!! Well if this is the pinnacle of his home games achievement, then we are in big trouble; he thinks losing is acceptable as long as we miss a few chances.
No manager in my lifetime has continually referred to previous defeats to defend his record, and I find this totally bizarre. Don't know if anyone else has found this baffling?
Jack Convery
310 Posted 01/10/2023 at 14:56:59
Lets get this right - I hate the RS. However the mentality of their players is on a different scale to ours. 9 of the RS showed more determination and total bloody mindedness not to let Spurs score. Its that sort of mentality that makes teams winners and the rest losers. We all know which side of the line EFC are on and have been for over 25 years. PS: Yes I know the RS lost and no one cheered louder than me when I heard they had lost.
Barry Hesketh
311 Posted 01/10/2023 at 15:02:27
Jack @319
I agree with you and I was only surprised that a) That they didn't hold on to the draw. b) That they didn't go up the other end and grab a winner.

Put this Everton side in the same position with 20 minutes to go, plus added time and we'd have lost by at least a couple of goals. Mind you from what I watched and it was more a case of me, flicking in and out of the coverage, Spurs seemed as clueless, as we would be, when facing the nine men.

Raymond Fox
312 Posted 01/10/2023 at 15:02:54
A good sensible post Charles 296.

We shouldn't be that suprised we lost again at home, its the same MO. Play a bottom of table team and you can chalk it down as a loss once more.
The defence for both of their goals and other chances they had was terrible, if we give teams those chances we are indeed toast.
There was no one near the ball for each goal, who the hell Mykolenko was marking only he knows for their second.

Dyche is right to criticise the players, they are paid a lot of money to perform to a high level, they failed at both ends of the pitch in this game. They had plenty of praise for the previous two results, but they don't deserve any for that game.

Branthwaite getting lots of love on here but he has a lot to learn and I cant say I'm overly impressed with his defence just yet.
Having said that all players make mistakes in every game, its when its costly its magnified.

Tony Abrahams
313 Posted 01/10/2023 at 15:23:11
I thought Spurs played a lot of very good football yesterday until they were faced with only playing against nine men Barry H, and then they dropped both their standards and their intensity, when playing against eight defenders.

Liverpool had three big centres defenders winning headers and blocking shots, but thankfully it didn’t MATIP in the end

Ernie Baywood
314 Posted 01/10/2023 at 15:49:58
Craig, I don't think Calvert-Lewin is a sissy. It should be fairly obvious that's targeted at the masses who praised Dyche for his comments about "Dominic being closer than he thinks he is" and then, after he was injured within an hour, declaring himself to be the healing guru by fixing his mattress.

I'll stand by my comments on Dyche. He's a weird, weird bloke who loves trying to make himself sound like more than he is. It's incredible to me that he's the manager of this club.

Paul Hughes
315 Posted 01/10/2023 at 15:57:20
I’ve not scrolled through all the comments, so I might be repeating what has already been said.
I find Dyche’s post match comments to be at Martinez-levels of delusion. I’m surprised that he didn’t say our performance was ‘phenomenal’.
We had a few chances in the first half, and perhaps should have taken one or two of them. But we created absolutely nothing in the second half - home, against the bottom of the table side, with the momentum behind us, having pulled a goal back - and that is down to poor tactics and poor coaching and direction. No point him standing on the touchline waving players forward, if he chooses the right players in the wrong place.
Dyche needs to get his act together and stop all this ‘changing the story’ bollocks.
On a brighter note, it was a pleasure to have a brief chat with Mike Gaynes outside the Harlech.
Mark Ryan
316 Posted 01/10/2023 at 16:07:23
Yes Mick @ 309 and along with him being shit I'm asking for him to be sacked. Every aspect of him is a waste of space. Pre match he's telling us nowt. Post match he's telling us the same old bollocks. He doesn't know how to use subs, he puts players in the wrong positions and he is also a shit manager locked in the Triassic period
Paul Kossoff
317 Posted 01/10/2023 at 16:17:15
Tony, "Liverpool had three big centres defenders winning headers and blocking shots, but thankfully it didn’t MATIP in the end."
Five stars mate⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐😀
Andy Meighan
318 Posted 01/10/2023 at 16:34:52
Got to agree with Raymond 312.

Talk of Branthwaite being the next Moore or Beckenbaur are way too premature at the moment.

He was pulled all over the place by the Luton forwards yesterday.

I'm certain he is going to go on and be a very good player but at this moment he's got a lot to learn.

We haven't kept a clean sheet in the games he's played, but then again look at the shite he's playing alongside.

If Keane played yesterday and we'd have lost 2 1 can you imagine the grief him and Dyche would be getting.

No imo too early to be quoting figures of 75 mil for the lad.

Give him time to grow and mature.

Billy Shears
319 Posted 01/10/2023 at 17:57:38
We need to be much more ruthless as a club, starting by telling both Gana Gueye and Young that there Everton days are over,next the loan players Harrison and Danjuma both start games,as how can we judge them sat on the bench?

Jimmy G starts in the middle of the park in a three man Midfield,with Onana and Harrison, Pattison must return at R.B too and tell Myko to be much braver too,as he plays it safe far too often,Tarks and Branners must keep their partnership going too, although I believe that Godfrey could be a better partner for young Jarrod long term!

Keep Beto up top with both McNeil and Danjuma supporting him with Harrison getting forward too for added forward support, although DCL has three in three,can we rely on him with his injury record?.

We need to start home games with a fast tempo,play from the first whistle like we're already a goal down,as our piss poor home form simply can't continue!... bollock players and tell them poor displays will cost you your place in the side!

So going forward as we stand,I'd play a 4-3-2-1 formation,with the starting line up as follows...













Frank Sheppard
320 Posted 01/10/2023 at 18:31:01
296 post is spot on. We have a home record of 8 home games, 7 losses.
Even worse is a run of 8 games against promoted teams, and not a single win.
In the modern era we have had squads much worse than this one, but no squad has been so abject at getting positive results.
Oliver Molloy
321 Posted 01/10/2023 at 18:31:43
I think right now Calvert Lewin will always start before Beto - I know it is very early days but from what I have seen of Beto - he needs to improve big time !
Stephen Williams
322 Posted 01/10/2023 at 18:33:43
Warning: this won't be popular!

Gana should not have been hooked at HT.

With him we controlled the midfield and created enough chances to have won two games. Without him we never had anywhere near the same control and created nothing. This isn't opinion - it's fact. The stats tell us all we need to know.

Only woeful defending of set pieces set us behind at HT. That was down to poor defensive organisation of the 4 defenders not Gana. By the way, whilst I feel for Mykolenko - what's happening at home must be terrible - he coughs up goals almost every week and will be replaced by Young as soon as Seamus is fit.

Weakening midfield leading to losing control of the game was down to Dyche. He weakened it further by going down to a midfield 4, further compounding the problem.

Dyche is a tactical dinosaur who belongs in a different era. That squad should be good enough for at least mid table but it's just not being prepared properly. At the least I had expected the defnce to be well drilled - but clearly not even that's happening.

We can only hope that there are 3 more under-prepared teams than us because we're stuck with him as the lack of leadership at the club won't sack him. Such a sad state of affairs that we continue to fall so far below the standards that are a minimum for clubs like ours.

Conor McCourt
323 Posted 01/10/2023 at 18:40:47
Having had time to cool down from yesterday's debacle and Dyches dreadful management of that game I am still of the view that I don't want him sacked in the immediate future.

Many have pointed to his terrible record in comparison to previous managers but I feel these stats are irrelevant as most weren't working under the constraints he has and has mostly been without our star centre forward during his entire tenure.

Secondly I feel he did a competent job in keeping us in the division last season as with the fixtures he inherited many thought it was an unenviable task.

Thirdly Sean has only now got a squad with options to choose from so with the two previous matches showing that we can be a decent side, yesterday's disaster is even more unacceptable. Perhaps those matches took more out of the squad than you would think. That's the only excuse I can make for him.

Fourthly on the whole we have looked fitter, have started developing relationships and our general play aside from yesterday and Villa has been pretty decent so it seems to me like the players are still on board with the manager which didn't seem the case a long way before the previous incumbents lost their jobs.

Finally it's OK sacking a manager if you have a lot of better options to replace him but as much as I like Potter he would be walking into a really tough gig and he is a manager that likes to tinker and play players in unorthodox roles, ie Sterling as a left wing back so I'm not sure he would get the entire fan base onside. whoever is in charge will have us operating at the wrong end of the table this campaign regardless.

On to Bournemouth and hopefully we see a big improvement from yesterday and three points are an absolute must now both for Everton and Sean Dyche.

Sam Hoare
324 Posted 01/10/2023 at 18:41:43

I couldn’t disagree more with that post I’m afraid.

1) We certainly did/do need a defensive coach. We haven’t kept a clean sheet in the league all year. We’re creating more chances than all the teams around us but keep giving away very weak goals.

2) Clearly he’s not out of his depth. He kept a poor Burnley up year after year. He also kept us up last year. Few managers have more experience fighting relegation in the PL.

3) Seems like a likeable guy to me. He’s honest and plain talking. Even if you don’t or do like him I don’t really see what it has to do with anything.

And then you call DCL a ‘sissy’? Based on what? His injury nightmare that’s he’s worked extremely hard to recover from?

I feel for Dyche a bit. Clearly the results aren’t good enough but there can be no doubt we’ve been unlucky. In pretty much every match bar Arsenal and Villa we have created more and better opportunities than our opponents. Over time that should equate to good results and is a big step up from where we were with Lampard and Benitez.

The players have to take responsibility too for me. There’s no way Dyche will have told Mykolenko to lose his man on back post for set pieces or for DCL, Garner, Gueye and Beto etc to miss very scorable chances.

Yes, Dyche got things wrong yesterday but we still would have won had individuals done better.

It’s a results business of course and if Dyche cannot churn out more points then he will rightfully be under pressure from whoever is making decisions currently. But I don’t think we’re that far off doing a lot better. The XG models (which I know aren’t for everyone) have us on 11.63 points which would be 7th in the table. If our finishing wasn’t so diabolical that’s where we might be. It’s a game of small margins and if Mcneills early volley yesterday had gone 2 foot to the left we’d all be feeling pretty chuffed with 3 wins in a row and a team with better options than last year. Yesterday was bad but the performances on the whole have deserved better results. It’s up to Dyche I guess to start making his own luck.

Barry Hesketh
325 Posted 01/10/2023 at 18:46:51
Billy @ 319
There's no way would I favour Beto in place of Dominic Calvert-Lewin, in fact I'm not sure how we will use Beto at all, apart from replacing DCL should he be injured or bringing him on to replace a tiring Dominic. It's early days for the lad, but apart from his showing at Doncaster, I haven't seen anything in him that shouts 'pick me' as the first choice forward.

Stephen @ 322
As you say, the midfield wasn't the issue in the first-half, as there was enough football played for Everton to at least be level at half-time. Unless Gana had an injury we don't know about, it was a strange decision to leave Onana on, as he faded as the first-half wore on.

To resort to lumping it up the pitch, when you have decent quality on the wings, not world-beaters but decent, is again very strange.

Seeing DCL and Beto, occupy the same space, shouldn't have happened and the longer the second-half went on the worse we played. Can somebody at the club, make practicing crossing for an hour a day, compulsory for all the players, because some of the crosses on show yesterday were very poor.

Joe McMahon
326 Posted 01/10/2023 at 18:55:26
Sam@324, you are correct he did keep Burnley up for a lot of seasons, but there were also 2 relegations. But he got Burnley back up again, having Mee and a younger Danny Ings and Joey Barton (yes Barton) helped.

For me personally though I've seen Burnley spanked so many times, the football was just too predictable, boring and low scoring, and as we all know Everton and low scoring is a theme.

Raymond Fox
327 Posted 01/10/2023 at 19:13:15
Bournemouth next up is tailor made for games we lose.
I'm sure that the players are afraid of home games now, as they seldom win.
I feel more confident myself that they can get a result away from home, thats the way it seems now.

Home games have become a problem, we need to get over that hump.

Mike Doyle
328 Posted 01/10/2023 at 19:34:53
Paul #307] My wife- who doesn’t really like football but watches parts of games with me - makes the same point.
All we seemed to do in the 2nd half was whack the ball forward clearly in hope rather than expectation.
Jim Wilson
329 Posted 01/10/2023 at 19:46:42
Stephen @ 322 - your Gueye comment is very popular with me because it is totally correct. In fact it was as clear as day that we were in control with Gueye on the pitch and once he was taken off we lost this control. So why the hell some people can't see it I just don't know.
Against Brentford when Onana went off and Garner moved into central midfield Gueye and Garner ran the show.
I wish some people and that includes Dyche would realise that without Gueye we will be in big trouble.
John Connor
330 Posted 01/10/2023 at 20:27:06
Headline says embarrassed by lowly Luton, it may be time to wake up and consider that if our current form continues it will be very lowly Everton embarrassed again. I still think we can survive this season, but really is that what Everton have become a team wanting to survive rather than compete. Yesterday was bad, despite what some are saying about the performance, we just went missing and could not break down what is a championship team. Reminded me in the second half of when we would hoof the ball up to Ferguson and hope. I wonder how much they practice set pieces defending and attacking. Something not right in the preparation for matches and I don't think our current saviours 777 will have and money or answers to put things right.
Ernie Baywood
331 Posted 01/10/2023 at 21:58:28
Sam #324 When he took us over, our defensive record wasn't that bad. It was top half in the league while we were the lowest scorers in the league. There was minimal improvement in 'keeping it tight' while there was huge improvement in even scoring a handful more goals.

He's never managed a club like Everton. When I listen to him talk it's very clear to me that it's actually his 'story' he's trying to change. He wants to sound like a leader, a mentor, an expert in modern, progressive management. He wants to break from the view that he's an Allardycealike. But they're empty words - no substance.

As for him being plain talking... I don't know what you're listening to if you think he's plain talking. He talks gibberish. Long winding sentences that don't really go anywhere.

My comment about DCL was sarcastic (which maybe didn't come across) and aimed at those on here who loved him stating DCL was fitter than he thought he was. Which was either a clear dig at DCL's mental toughness, or another example of Dyche continuing to talk until a set of words eventually made sense to someone. Then, after Dom was played for an hour and lost to us for most of the season, he went into that weird statement about digging into every aspect of his life. Again, completely unnecessary and played into the hands of those who blamed the player rather than sympathising with his injury situation.

Players absolutely take responsibility. But so does Dyche - who is responsible for some of the worst home form I've ever seen. And now we're even defensively poor. What is he offering?

David Hallwood
332 Posted 01/10/2023 at 00:39:38
What makes a great coach? IMHO it’s someone with a clear plan on how the game is played, as George Dubya Bush termed ‘the vision thing’. And it’s true, we all know what a Klopp or Pep team looks and plays like and what Klopp & Pep players look like.

Now I never wanted Dyche as the manager, but I consoled myself with the notion that his football will be garbage, but it will be moderately successful garbage because just like Klopp & Pep, he has a clear vision of how football is played… or so I thought.

So what is Dyche’s philosophy? And what does a Dyche player look like? If Burnley is anything to go by, his philosophy is get it forward as quick as possible, have two big lads up top, or at least one, and lots of balls into the box, especially crosses.

Now when he first arrived he was hamstrung because of the Dom situation and apart from Iwobi who let’s be honest was a makeshift wide player, we didn’t have pacy wide players to deliver the ammunition.

The recruitment in the transfer window pointed to Dycheball, with the signings of Chermitty, Beto, Harrison & Danjuma, but once again he was hampered by Harrison’s injury. And then finally against Villa he was able to put out, well on the right at least components to make Dycheball work; a pacy(ish) wide mid playing in tandem with an overlapping FB, ready to deliver cross after cross to either Dom or Beto or both, all very yesterday’s football, but if it works hey ho.

So onto Saturday and Patterson & Harrison dropped in favour of Young & Garner, so no overlap, no quality crosses, in fact no Dycheball, just the inevitable huff & puff and aimless ball lumped up for Dom to win. The shithousery he showed against a severely limited side was painful to watch, and before someone mentions xG, it’s a meaningless statistic that doesn’t get you points.

I really don’t like sacking managers because it doesn’t get you anywhere, although anyone who points to Villa sacking of slipper has got a point. But he’s living on borrowed time, in the 50 years I’ve been watching Everton I cannot remember such a poor run of results. The only thing that’s saving him is we probably can’t afford to sack him/

Ernie Baywood
333 Posted 02/10/2023 at 02:46:07
David, xG is definitely nonsense. People use it as some sort of good vs bad luck metric. I'm guessing that xG doesn't take into account the individual taking the shot.

It's not bad luck that great opportunities keep falling to a midfielder who can't strike a ball. It's not bad luck that puts him in that position - it's the selection of that player and the role he's given.

There's the basis of a team at Everton right now. You could imagine the Joe Royle we got in 94 looking at this side and thinking there are strengths to play to. And what he did back then is still underrated in my view - it wasn't just Dogs of War and nothing else. He identified attacking strengths and played to them. Players like Limpar and Hinchcliffe were suddenly playing to their strengths, not their weaknesses.

And what do we have? A lineup that looks designed to sit deep, keep it tight, and nick one... at home to a Luton side who don't want the ball. It's just embarrassingly poor.

Alan J Thompson
334 Posted 02/10/2023 at 06:12:58
I really didn't want to add to my thoughts posted nearer the game but I think a lot are being overly hard on Mykolenko. He was left with two Luton players who started their runs from outside the penalty area and at first was caught between the two and decided to mark the one nearer the ball but unfortunately for him it went to the scorer who was widest of the two. The fault really lies with the defensive set up that left Mykolenko in such a position. I won't blame Tarkowski for that but there are times when he seems more inclined to add to his blocking record than actually marking anyone or dominating the middle.

Similarly with Onana. When he gets the ball he seems to control it instantly albeit a lot of them are not that difficult but if there is an opposition player near him then he quickly lays it off to someone in space with time which, this being Everton, is more often somebody wide or behind him as that's the way he's facing but he is usually there to take a pass. It has to be said though that he doesn't seem to get forward into the opposition penalty area as much as he did in his earlier games and with usually only one up front we need not just Doucoure doing it.

Sam Hoare
335 Posted 02/10/2023 at 10:01:14
Ernie@ I think the focus is too narrow if you're simply looking at the goals for and against. By the end of Lampards time we were giving up the most chances per game in the league and the fact that less goals had gone in was due mainly to Pickford performing at superhero levels for first half of last season and a combination of bad finishing and woodwork coming to our aid a lot. It was never going to be sustainable. And no Lampard team has ever looked solid at the back.

When you say he's never managed a club like Everton, what do you mean? I presume you mean the history and the expectation? Well with all respect that counts for squat diddly right now. At the time of writing Everton is a club with huge debts, no money to spend, a pretty poor squad and a recent history of back to back relegation battles. And Dyche has absolutely dealt with that situation before.

Of course Dyche has to take responsibility and he will absolutely get the bullet and deservedly so if we continue to get poor results. But when you ask what he offers I'd say he has turned us from a team under Lampard which conceded loads of chances and didn't create many to a team that this seaon has created far more chances than we have conceded. Yes, that counts for nothing in the league table of course but it is an indicator of better performances and underlying improvement. It's up to him to turn those performances into results.

It actually reminds me a bit of Marco Silva's last season, where we were usually creating more than our opponents but kept conceeding silly goals, often from set pieces. I really hoped Silva could turn it around but he didn't and ultimately paid the price. Patience is rare in football, especially amongst Everton fans, and though the lack of an involved decision maker on the board might buy Dyche a bit more time than he'd normally expect we have a tricky run coming up after Bournemouth so he needs to find a way of making his own luck.

Duncan McDine
336 Posted 02/10/2023 at 10:30:43
We all hate watching Everton lose (you'd think that we'd got used to it by now!)... but sacking managers every 5 minutes is not a recipe for success.

This season is yet another season where survival is the only target and I honestly think that Dyche will achieve that (if given the chance).

Alex Gray
337 Posted 02/10/2023 at 10:37:54
Our biggest issue is our full backs. Young and Mykolenko are dire. Going forward they offer literally nothing. Mykolenko in particular looks like he's going to wet himself when he gets passed the halfway line and Young is finished. Young on the ball has really disappointed me. I expected his legs to be gone but this is a lad who played for Manchester United. He can't pass and his crossing is worse than Hibbert's.

Neither of them overlap and whenever Mykolenko does he times his run too early and has to pass the ball back. Young hasn't got the legs to overlap.

Defensively it's easy to point out Lutons second goal as to why Mykolenko isn't good enough but i'd argue he had one of his better defensive performances. Young can't defend. At all. So far with us he's averaged 1 successful tackle out of 5. 20% success rate tackling is expected from a striker not a fullback.

Overall they don't create space for our wingers, don't overlap, can't pass, can't cross, can't defend and simply don't contribute anything. If you don't want your full backs to attack they need to be defensively excellent. If they're weak defensively they need to be atleast useful going forwards. Ours are neither and when teams sit back and our high press is no longer viable we start using our wingers to produce crosses and fullbacks are essential in this by making runs to create space or overlapping to get behind. Mykolenko attempted to overlap but just passed backwards and young didn't attempt it at all.

Sam Hoare
338 Posted 02/10/2023 at 11:00:54
Alex, yes, I wholeheartedly agree. I think it's possible we have the weakest set of full backs in the league sadly. Which is a shame as we spent £30m+ reinforcing those positions less than 2 years ago. Patterson may develop into a more useful option but he is slow on the turn. Having said that Dyche should have started him against Luton, or any team where we expect to have more of the ball.

I'd actually consider Garner at RB. I know he's flavour of the month and everyone now believes he's our best CM after one good match against Villa but I reckon Dyche will keep Gana and Onana there and Garner at RB with Harrison ahead of him could make a decent right flank potentially. Garner has good energy and would get up that flank effectively on the overlap, he's got a great cross and takes care of the ball better than Patterson. I think Young definitely needs dropping against Bournemouth.

Brent Stephens
339 Posted 02/10/2023 at 11:18:52
Alex, Sam, I agree about our current full backs. Furthermore, at the weekend we seemed to rely on the more diagonal ball to the centre of the opposition's penalty box - picked off easily by their CBs. I'd have expected more effort to get nearer to the byline and whip in a (low?) cross behind the defence.
Steve Brown
340 Posted 02/10/2023 at 11:19:32
Alex, Sam.

I remember many hailing the signings of these two full backs as a a great piece of business, as the club used the fee from Digne to sign them. Digne was branded as over the hill in January 2022, but has miraculously revived his career at Villa.

The only downside to this argument was that Patterson and Mykolenko have proven themselves to be 1) unable to master basic defensive positioning 2) weak in the air 3) unable to react to runners finding the gap between them and their centre back 4) completely ineffectual in attack.

They are without doubt our worst full-backs since Earl Barrett and Terry Phelan occupied those positions.

Brent, neither Patterson or Myko can cross a ball, low or high.

John Williams
341 Posted 02/10/2023 at 11:22:20
Both the Luton goals happened due to poor defending.
The first by Lockyer was down to Branthwaite who stood watching the player he was marking and made no attempt to stop him.
The second you automaticly point the finger at Mykolenko, unless he is instructed to be in close to the centrhalves ?
Arsenal and Luton have now found out the Everton defence on corners and free kicks in and around the box.
John Williams
342 Posted 02/10/2023 at 11:22:31
Both the Luton goals happened due to poor defending.
The first by Lockyer was down to Branthwaite who stood watching the player he was marking and made no attempt to stop him.
The second you automaticly point the finger at Mykolenko, unless he is instructed to be in close to the centrhalves ?
Arsenal and Luton have now found out the Everton defence on corners and free kicks in and around the box.
Brent Stephens
343 Posted 02/10/2023 at 11:24:05
Steve, I was thinking the likes of Harrison and McNeil.
Paul Cherrington
344 Posted 02/10/2023 at 11:27:14
I'm going to state the blindingly obvious and say what a terrible result that was at the weekend. We need to really work on taking our chances, as only DCL seems clinical in that regard at the moment.

There is one other thing that seems obvious but also seems a much deeper issue to sort out to me. Whoever is manager and whoever is playing, we have been unable to string together a decent run of results for years now. How many times under various managers/players have we seen a good win followed by two or three poor subsequent displays?

I can't really remember the last time we had a proper long run of good performances and good results. I know we won twice very recently but I'm talking about longer stretches when you go unbeaten for a lot more games than that and pick up points regularly.

This is not someting that has just happened under Dyche or with the current squad - so I guess the question is, what's the root cause? Is it the overriding culture at the training ground and club which somehow breeds complacency/inconsistency?

Sam Hoare
345 Posted 02/10/2023 at 11:42:10
Steve@340, I had no massive problem with selling Digne for £28m, his performances had dropped and he has been no great shakes at Villa. Though we've obviously missed his delivery it was good fee for a player of that age.

The problem as ever was the following recruitment. If memory serves me right then Brands had been sacked at that point and so we were making that decision with Benitez on the way out and no DOF. It was likely Kenwright who made these picks. Patterson and Mykolenko especially were overpriced and not the best additions.

Mark Murphy
346 Posted 02/10/2023 at 11:44:18
Another good day out ruined by a game of football.

Well, actually, thats not quite true. I had a good day overall starting with a full English at Maggie Mays with my posh son and then meeting the TW lads in the Harlech, were I arrived to early (11.30 ish) and peaked too soon. My apologies to the people in row Q, upper Glwadys, for the number of times I needed to go for a p.

On that note, whoever usually sits in the seat I had, you have my sympathies. The regulars you sit in front of make some of those beauts on the live forum seem like rays of sunshine. There was a lad near me who said he was absolutely sick of them, every week!

I say a good day overall as I think I may be getting immune to the Blues doing this. In the Harlech early on I was sat with a bunch of Welsh and Yorkshire people who were predicting all kinds of score fests - 4-0, even 5-0 - (to us) and I got that quiet nagging feeling. I said more than once I hope its not an after the Lord Mayors show type of performance and lo, it was. The two Luton goals were absolute sickeners and both should have been defended comfortably. Personally I thought Young should have dealt better with the first but the header in was forecast by two or three previous attempts. Myko was the nearest to the second but he had two men to look after. I don't think he had a good game but I still think he'll be ok. A quick thought on Pickford. He was waving his arms about at his defenders from the start and I got the impression he was pissing them off royally. He seemed to cause panic rather than instill calm. But its this reluctance to play Garner in his obvious, and sorely needed, role in the middle that I don't understand. He's wasted on the wing. Onana? I just don't think he wants to play for us. IF he's as good as they say then he's playing within himself. Just enough, but not game affecting. Harrison came on and looked good but no-one was on his wavelength. Beto was very disappointing. I think people are giving him an easy time with for those two headers - he should have buried, one, probably both!

Overall, towards the end, I still thought we'd grab another one but our midfield play was so painfully slow - "why take one touch when two or three will do" seems to be the mantra when a bit of sharpness was needed. Final thought from me - remember when we went crazy and bought three number tens? Why can't we even find just one these days please?

Raymond Fox
347 Posted 02/10/2023 at 11:50:02
Like Dyche said we didnt defend well, that was our main downfall. We never got near both players that scored.
Corners in the game now are more like freestyle wrestling matches, its a joke, so there is some excuse.
Stop them and we would be saying we weren't great but it was a win.
Nobody was crying for Dyche's head after the previous two games.
The players have to do what their paid to do, perform well, if they don't and in our case theres a few players that are barely Prem. class its unfair to put the blame on the manager.
David Hallwood
348 Posted 02/10/2023 at 12:07:40
To the posters who stated that we're creating more chances, this is xG bollocks writ large.

Maybe we should have a secondary statistic and mark the xG out of 10, and what you'll find is that most of the 'chances' would get a nul point by our panel of judges.

How many quality crosses and passes did we witness as opposed to hoofs which Dom still managed to get under control? I could be wrong but I can't recall any, just a succession of hit and hope.

'The xGs right up there' so funking what, my eyes not some random statto tells me otherwise.

Lord Hughes
349 Posted 02/10/2023 at 12:48:41
Interesting match comment on BBC.

"Poor team selection from Dyche moving Garner out of the centre after two decent performances there. Also, no width! Harrison and Danjuma benched. Gueye often furthest forward! Poor finishing yes, but one dimensional, trying to thread passes through the centre until Harrison came on. Dyche can also change the story by sticking with a winning formula."

Mick O'Malley
350 Posted 02/10/2023 at 13:00:01
Raymond there was plenty of people shouting for Dyche’s head, those two wins were anomalies, unexpected. Has anyone ever thought that the fullbacks don’t overlap because they’re playing to instruction? Patterson seems to have no problem playing for Scotland where he regularly overlaps and delivers crosses, no way on this earth is Ashley Young a better right back than Patterson, also regarding midfield, why change what worked perfectly against Villa? James Garner and Onana looked the part as a pair the other night but Dyche just had to bring Gana back in, and lo and behold misplaced passes, he shoehorned a central midfielder in and pushed our most progressive midfielder out to the wing, no width, all very narrow. Danjuma is a goal threat, Jack Harrison played well the other night, but no Dyche just had to change and pack the midfield out with central midfielders at home against the mighty Luton, Dyche is a bottom feeder, he plays percentages, cowardly safety first football, and as for improving the defence, sorry I’m not seeing it, no clean sheets this season even though we’ve had favourable fixtures, and his home record is absolutely shocking, I agree with Ernie above,Personally I can’t wait to see the back of Dyche
Stephen Vincent
351 Posted 02/10/2023 at 13:17:44
I sat in the Main Stand with my 8 year old Grandson and we were right in line with the flight of the ball for Luton's second. Amid the stunned silence the boy asks 'Why was nobody watching him didn't we think he was very good?'

Michael Kenrick
352 Posted 02/10/2023 at 13:27:51
Were they watching a different game?

Idrissa Gana Gueye supposedly can't pass, at least that's according to many posting on here.

Strange then to read on the Everton page at The Athletic that he is the 'Team Leader' for – guess what – Passing Accuracy: 88.5%

He can't fucking shoot — that's what drives me to drink!

Raymond Fox
353 Posted 02/10/2023 at 14:06:04
Like who Mark, we have tried half the population with more or less the same outcome.

Jim Wilson
354 Posted 02/10/2023 at 14:12:25
Micheal @352 - I know Gueye's strengths and weakness.

And you are right his passing is generally very good but he gets jumped on for one bad one.

I also know he brings energy and stops the opposition from playin with constant challenges and covering of ground. He has energy and does not hide. He was not bought for his shooting ability.

Until we sign a better version of Gueye he is a must. Second half against Luton, without him, we were clueless.

GUEYE AND GARNER are our essential 2 centre midfield players.

I know what Gueye is good at a consistent level. What I am clueless about is what Onana does consistently. It is definitely not tackling passing covering shooting. What the hell is it that he is good at on a regular basis, except maybe drifting in and out of a game?

Sam Hoare
355 Posted 02/10/2023 at 14:29:08
David@348 if you're going to rely solely on your eyes then you may want to give them a check. Just from from the top of my head I can remember:

A nice passing move that resulted in Mcneill's volley just wide.

A lovely pass from Doucoure that cut through their defence to Garner that he then curled just wide with his left.

Nice passing into their box that Doucoure then layed back for Gueye who really should have done better from 15 yards out under minimal pressure.

A lovely cross from Mcneill that found Garner at the back post that he put onto the bar.

A perfect deep cross from Mykolenko that DCL looked to be all over but then just headed at their keeper.

A nice backheel in the box from (i think ) Mykolenko that Onana curled just wide.

We definitely created some decent openings. As we have all season. I don't quite understand people's refusal to acknowledge them (or deep hatred of Xg) but I guess it comes from those who have decided that Dyche needs to go and don't want to hear or see any evidence to the contrary.

The results have not been good enough and ultimately that's all that really matters of course. And the results will decide dyche's future. But there can surely still be room for some nuance and looking at the underlying performances?

Dale Self
356 Posted 02/10/2023 at 14:31:05
I think we get overrun in midfield playing two with Gana and Garner. Playing Onana deep is the best option. How to limit Gana’s possession is the puzzle since we need that position advanced and delivering. Again, some kind of rotation or overshift that threatens shape on a turnover is needed.

Gana does not have the possession skills for an 8 but can be effective if he has an outlet when he runs out of ideas. Dropping a forward deep reduces the midfield space further pressuring possession. There is no easy answer until Harrison is a regular.

And playing Patterson without Garner has not helped the kid settle. He needs Harrison in front.

Dale Self
357 Posted 02/10/2023 at 14:38:48
Oh yeah, xG basically makes the argument that the offence design is creating goal chances. One can say that Dyche is responsible for players’ ability to put the ball in the net but isn’t that on the checklist when the player is bought? Claiming xG is some kind of mysterious thing is bullshit. It’s a minimization of a defence for Dyche nothing more, unless you are a dumbass. Stop the routine of not knowing basic statistical analysis of football. Some of you have directly called for some kind of moneyball hire and what the hell do you think they are using?
Alex Gray
358 Posted 02/10/2023 at 14:47:29
Gana had a great pass completion. The issue I have is he needs 5-6 touches to pass it sideways. Completing passes is one thing, what you do with the ball is another.

The only thing I can say is that against Villa was the first time the midfield looked balanced offensively and defensively. Against Luton it wasn't our biggest issue though.

When a team sits back and throws a load of men behind the ball (we should know we do it most games) you either need a creative player in the middle with strikers making runs to open up the gaps between defenders which we don't have or you need good width to get around the back. That's where overlapping fullbacks come in to it. Patterson is the best at it out the current three and he was benched so you then rely on your wingers and we left ours on the bench to get Garner in the team.

Danjuma/Harrison on the wing, Garner replacing Idrissa and Patterson replacing Young would've changed our dynamic. Instead what we had was Mcneil coming inside for some reason, Garner doing the same and the midfield passing it to each other looking for width and having no options so eventually going backwards or a hopeful hoof into the box. Luton had a load of brutes at the back and this was exactly what they wanted.

Sad reality of it was Luton got their tactics right and we got it wrong. Keeping winning team from Brentford seems smart on paper but when you're playing a different style of team we needed to change our tactics accordingly and sadly Dyche was found majorly lacking and going 4-4-2 wasn't the answer when we already had too many players around the middle and nobody getting the ball to them.

Dave Lynch
359 Posted 02/10/2023 at 14:48:21
XG!!!! What a load of bollocks, its a bit like saying we fired more bullets at the enemy so statistically we should of won the war.

It's goals at one end and defence at the other that win games.

If we go down with the best XG in the league what the fuck does it matter how many chances we create! Its a flawed stats system as a blocked shot on target from 35yds goes on the XG stats.

David West
360 Posted 02/10/2023 at 14:58:42
Xg in isolation is useless. I do agree with posters in the sense that you can't say oh we have good xg we played well.
It shows you are creating chances.
Who decides if a goal should be expected??
Dcls volley on the turn ?
Mcneils volley ?
Are they really expected?

If Mykolenko or Gana is through on goal it may count as an xg but Evertoians would probably know he's not expected to score.

We were not too bad first half, we defended set pieces terribly, which is meant to be one of dyches strong points.
The change at half time came too soon. We should of let the team see if they could carry the momentum we had at the end of the first half in to the second tighten up at set pieces and we would of won I think.
We just lacked ideas second half.

For all Ganas loose passing he still tackles, he carries the ball too, he is not just sideways. Imo he should of stayed on. Its onana I think needs a rest.

David West
361 Posted 02/10/2023 at 14:58:42
Xg in isolation is useless. I do agree with posters in the sense that you can't say oh we have good xg we played well.
It shows you are creating chances.
Who decides if a goal should be expected??
Dcls volley on the turn ?
Mcneils volley ?
Are they really expected?

If Mykolenko or Gana is through on goal it may count as an xg but Evertoians would probably know he's not expected to score.

We were not too bad first half, we defended set pieces terribly, which is meant to be one of dyches strong points.
The change at half time came too soon. We should of let the team see if they could carry the momentum we had at the end of the first half in to the second tighten up at set pieces and we would of won I think.
We just lacked ideas second half.

For all Ganas loose passing he still tackles, he carries the ball too, he is not just sideways. Imo he should of stayed on. Its onana I think needs a rest.

Mark Murphy
362 Posted 02/10/2023 at 15:06:23
Jim Wilson
I was driving back on sunday and during the Golf on the radio they kept going to Blackburn Leicester.
I was very surprised to hear that Ndidi is still at Leicester. He could be that younger Gueye.
Dave Abrahams
363 Posted 02/10/2023 at 15:15:02
What does XG stand for? When did it start and who started it? I know it really is a load of nonsense, just curious.
Dale Self
364 Posted 02/10/2023 at 15:15:58
David I suspect there is a digital trove of comparative game situations in League archives to review and model outcomes. This source of actual conversions and overall attempts on goal are the basis for the xG statistic. It’s as sound as insurance actuary analysis. Go ahead, take a shot at that.

Wrong Gramps! So wrong.

Jim Wilson
365 Posted 02/10/2023 at 15:25:50
Dale @ 356 'I think we get overrun in midfield playing two with Gana and Garner'

- The midfield were poor in the 1-3 home defeat against Fulham last season in Garners first game with Gueye but you do need to play a few games together to form any partnership.

We also got beat 0-3 at home to City, but we had defensive problems for that game and the opposition was an unstoppable City.

In the other games were Gueye and Garner have played together in centre mid they have played well together and also helped to get Doucoure playing well. Palace away 0-0, Leicester away 2-2 and Brighton 5-1. They also hit it off immediately last week against Brentford when Onana went off and Garner moved into the middle.

So I can't agree with you about us getting overun in midfield when they play together. The facts do not back this up. And it's never just the two it is three with Doucoure.

Dave Lynch
366 Posted 02/10/2023 at 15:29:13
It apparently stands for...expected goals.
I had to look it up myself, it apparently started on some stats site, put together by probably some spotty faced kids with fuck all better to do with their time.
Dale Self
367 Posted 02/10/2023 at 15:29:54
Fair Jim, there are no real answers just proposed experiments at this point. I guess my resistance is because of our unproductive forward possession. When that is functioning I think Gana and Garner could work. Until then I would wait for that partnership until after 60 minutes.

And just for emphasis, you should understand that those xG models are subjected to integrity tests. They check the predictions versus realized outcomes. The fact that journos take up the term in their writing tells you how well those models are accepted. That doesn’t mean you have to accept it but look at the standing of those who do. Why would they risk pushing a dodgy stat in their articles?

Jim Wilson
368 Posted 02/10/2023 at 15:38:03
Dale @ 367 - I feel confident that a team of Pickford, Patterson, Branthwaite, Tarks, Myko, Harrison, Gueye, Garner, Doucoure, McNeil, DCL would do fine.

I might be wrong but I see Onana as a complete spanner in the works. He can do a neat pass here and there, a good tackle here and there (that shot v Villa was almost goal of the season) but he just does not do it consistently. He is good when the going is good he is poor when we are up against it and hides.

That is how I see it.

Dave Abrahams
369 Posted 02/10/2023 at 15:40:41
Dave (366)Thanks Dave, expected goals, strange, every game is different and some of the best goals I’ve seen were totally unexpected like Sharp’s at Anfield and Keane’s v Spurs last season but I supposed we shouldn’t be surprised with new things happening in football nearly every season regarding rules, substitutes were never allowed now you can use five.

Forgot to mention VAR going against Liverpool, bleedin’ never seen that coming!!

Dale Self
370 Posted 02/10/2023 at 15:42:43
You’ve been very good with past solutions Jim. I am not knocking your position just taking a different one. Keep it going, I enjoy your posts (and articles).
Conor McCourt
371 Posted 02/10/2023 at 16:15:22
It's quite a good thing that many disagree with how we should set up as no longer does the team pick itself.

Away from home or against top teams I would be happy with the team that started against Luton or the one that started against Villa.

But some fans see Gana as the problem at home while others think it's Onana. Personally I would like to see Garner tried in Doucoure's role as I am a fan of both the aforementioned and feel they provide a solid base.

Doucoure is great at running on to things when he has space and his power and athleticism make him vital in away games. But when a team sits back like Luton did on Saturday it totally negates his attributes. I think Garner could be a little menace in there as well as having a little bit of guile. In case we should still struggle to break teams down we still have the option of Danjuma from the bench. That would be his preferred role giving him freedom to arrive in those little pockets with his directness and shooting ability.

Doucoure could then be deployed as an 8 with Onana sitting should we still need a goal. I feel Dyche really needs to use the squad better as with the likes of Branthwaite and Garner it took an age for the penny to drop and he isn't at Burnley anymore so needs to use his resources more diligently and be more proactive.

Mick Davies
372 Posted 02/10/2023 at 16:22:23
Moyes, Martinez, Koeman, Allardyce, Silva, Ancelloti, Benitez, Lampard, Dyche - all gone, not a trophy to show for all the millions of pounds wasted, and now, only here to fight relegation: from Jon Woods, Robert Earl to Barret Baxendale and Sharp, there have been numerous board members, and investors, all now gone: billions spent on ineffective misfits from Kroldrup to Gbamin and we are miles behind clubs who a quarter of a century ago, weren't even in the PL. Even a billionaire owner has come and is now on his way out, but despite all this, the leader of the gang is still in power, and unlike one of his most successful predecessors (a certain pools company owner - who said "Everton must have the best, the best coaches, the best manager and the best directors. If any of them fail, they must go.") he still clings on, despite ruling over one of the worst periods in our history, and doing the opposite of everything John Moores preached in that wonderful statement. . . . there's the answer to everything that is wrong with Everton FC
Mark Murphy
373 Posted 02/10/2023 at 17:03:44
“All gone” — have I missed something???

I'm really not sure how I'd feel if so….

Robert Tressell
374 Posted 02/10/2023 at 17:12:54
There's a lot of suspicion of statistics on ToffeeWeb. I can't quite understand it personally, it's simply about harnessing the power of data to improve understanding and decision making.

It's the basis of science, insurance, financial services, increasingly retail and many other walks of life. Generally, those with access to the best / richest sources of data and the ability to understand what to do with that data have a huge competitive advantage.

Sport is no different which is why it is already heavily utilised. xG is a part of that – and low and behold, Pep Guardiola's positional play tactics play into.

And yes, clubs that we all like to admire, like Brighton, also use statistics (borrowed from the gambling industry) extensively to outperform their resources – something made much easier by clubs who prefer the "my eyes know best" approach.

xG doesn't make a bit of difference to the league table at the end of the season, but that's not the point of the stats. The point of the stats is to back up an opinion or debunk a myth with evidence.

I guess the evidence-based angle is why it doesn't go down well in the heavily emotive world of football – where the manager will always be wrong tactically if we lose (regardless of how we played / how the opposition played etc).

Barry Hesketh
375 Posted 02/10/2023 at 17:47:00
Robert @ 374,

One of the reasons many fans don't like statistics is due to the players believing they have done well, even in defeat, as exemplified by Iwobi's utterances in a recent interview:

Iwobi said: “When I came through the academy (at Arsenal) I played in numerous positions. I feel like my favourite, or the position where I get my most ‘stats', is probably in midfield, as a No 8.

Players are obsessed with performance stats and quite possibly it's the reason why we see so many sideway and backward passes, as it helps them to increase their personal statistics. If they ended up on the losing side, how can they believe that they played well?

Mick Davies
376 Posted 02/10/2023 at 17:57:31

“All gone” have I missed something???

Sorry, my mistake, but I can't see Dyche winning a trophy, and don't see him lasting much longer if things don't improve.

Mark Murphy
377 Posted 02/10/2023 at 18:37:42
I guessed, Mick, but my sentiments remain. I'm not sure how I'd feel about it.

Even before Brentford and Villa, I was firmly in the "give him time" camp but I'm really not seeing any improvement despite, in my opinion, a decent team in there. Saturday was demoralising.

Dave O’Connell
378 Posted 02/10/2023 at 18:43:29
And to think all the fans who wanted Martinez out because of his defensive record. Dyche is worse and we don't play football.

Get him out now because he will take us down.

Andy Crooks
379 Posted 02/10/2023 at 18:58:52
Barry @ 375, that is a really good post.

The analysis of trends in the financial sector simply does not relate to football. The data in finance and insurance cannot manipulate itself. Your Iwobi quote demonstrates quite clearly that in football it can.

There is a place for xG but I would suggest that Pep uses his eyes and intuition and ability to motivate much more. There's a bit of smug ageism on this thread that is quite amusing in the complete lack of awareness of those who perpetrate it.

I have the utmost admiration for Robert and Sam but, with regard to football, I believe that suspicion of data is quite healthy.

A player tries a back heel, a clever pass to a team mate who doesn't read it. The crowd get on his back and he resorts to hiding; passing sideways, backwards. Best pass completion? So what?

Good post @ 355, Sam. Eyes alone don't work either.

Billy Shears
380 Posted 02/10/2023 at 19:11:55
The VAR and xG is just total bollocks, i just use my eyes! Sadly under Dyche we're a reactive team, not a proactive one, that plays with the handbrake on.

As for Onana needing a rest... jeez, the season has just fucking started! Just show some bottle and heart, for fuck's sake!

Dave Abrahams
381 Posted 02/10/2023 at 19:16:18
Andy (379),

I think using your eyes, watching a player, is more useful than reading stats, how many passes, shots, tackles, dribbles etc. in my opinion.

I saw a video recently made by a scout who was interested in a young player, concentrating on his good points. He was recommending this player to the club he worked for.

It showed the lad playing in a game, League One, doing his runs down the wing, tackling back, dribbles down the wing followed by quick powerful and accurate centres right across the goal, using his pace to get back and win tackles after giving his opponent a few yard starts.

I understood that video perfectly. No, it didn't show his bad points but he was making and showing the video to make the point that the lad was a good player and worth buying. Actually, it wasn't one game but a composition of a few games.

Brendan McLaughlin
382 Posted 02/10/2023 at 19:20:24
Bit of a leap, Barry #375...

"Even in defeat as exemplified by Iwobi's utterances in a recent interview:"

I'm guessing Iwobi didn't make those comments specifically in relation to a defeat.

Mike Connolly
383 Posted 02/10/2023 at 19:21:00
After watching an embarrassing performance on Saturday, why do some fans clap the team off?

I have clapped the team off when we have lost, but that's only because we have put in a good performance. Have these fans fallen asleep during the game or am I missing something?

Just intrigued to know why.

Barry Rathbone
384 Posted 02/10/2023 at 19:28:58
Harry Kane and Alan Shearer haven't won a thing at international level – a stat clearly demonstrating what ineffective balloons they are or were, as was George Best who never even played in a World Cup.

Judgement by eye = 99%

Judgement by computer-generated stats = 1%

Pete Neilson
385 Posted 02/10/2023 at 19:29:19
Data is raw; statistics are an interpretation of it. It might be “evidence” but it's not the whole truth. xG and many other stats simply don't or can't sum up the randomness of the game.

Definitely meaningless over a single game but maybe slightly more informative over many matches.

Brendan McLaughlin
386 Posted 02/10/2023 at 19:34:40
Indeed, Pete #385,

Stats have a role to play but the idea that players and managers can't see beyond the simple numbers is ludicrous.

Dale Self
387 Posted 02/10/2023 at 19:36:30
Come on man. Don't start polluting the term 'stat' just so that later someone can say “See? It's all so confused we can't even settle on what a stat is or which ones matter.” Please!

Pete, 'meaningless' is harsh but I think I get your perspective and it is reasonable.

David West
388 Posted 02/10/2023 at 20:12:32
Xg might be better split in to categories:

•Chances created

•Good chance

•Excellent chance

• Gana chance = no chance.

He's our best tackling midfield player.

Winning the ball back.

Best in leauge at these stats.

Surprised to see most completed passes for us too.

This is why he's a must while he still has the legs.

Ban him from shooting but we looked terrible when he left the field.

Ian Riley
389 Posted 02/10/2023 at 20:43:55
Dyche must find a way of getting points on the table or he will be sacked. He knows that and so do we. Luton Town beat us. No matter how many chances we made, we lost. Its unacceptable at home not to get a point at least against a relagation favourite.

Bournemouth match on Saturday is crucial we get 3 points. The players need to take their chances and work harder or they will be working under another manager sooner rather than later.

Sam Hoare
390 Posted 02/10/2023 at 20:49:30
Pete@385 is pretty spot on here I think. There are helpful and unhelpful statistics and nearly all of them need a larger sample size or time frame to be taken into serious consideration.

People’s eyes will always be the best source of information but sometimes the eyes will see what they want to and this is where (the right) statistics can come in to challenge or support those pre-existing narratives.

Andy Crooks draws an interesting point about ageism though it may have plenty to do with personality and philosophy as well.

Like them or hate them statistics are a major part of football nowadays and all big clubs use them extensively for recruitment, performance analysis and opposition scouting. People can shout ‘nonsense’ into the wind all they want but xG and the ilk aren’t going away!

Ernie Baywood
391 Posted 02/10/2023 at 21:00:44
I'm not suspicious of stats. They can be very useful... but not in isolation. They need to be interpreted.

If someone told me Mykolenko has a high pass completion percentage I wouldn't be surprised. He gets the ball in decent positions and turns straight back because he knows he can't do anything more. He stops lots of our staffing positions through his high passing percentage.

xG is another that means nothing on its own. If DCL misses a couple of one on ones then that goes on the xG stats. If Gana has 10 shots from range that goes on too. But creating one on ones for DCL is the kind of football that wins games. Having Gana taking long shots is a real problem; it indicates an issue with our setup that contributes to us losing games.

If Gana plays it should be to do the job he's good at. Likewise for all of them.

But what we've got is a team with no definitive style, being rolled out regardless of the opposition. The selection against Luton was defensive (stay at home full backs, Gueye, Doucoure, Garner tucking in to fill the centre) against a struggling team.

There shouldn't be any celebration (or defence of the performance) that we managed to have plenty of the ball and some half chances... that's exactly what Luton would have hoped we would have.

Our possession was pointless. Literally. Any sustained possession in that team selection is pointless. The ball will reach too many players who aren't going to create anything worthwhile. The stats can't understand that.

Dale Self
392 Posted 02/10/2023 at 21:06:15
David 388, they will probably create an omG stat for some of Everton’s misses.

Also, the desire for breakouts is interesting. I’ve long been critical of end of match possession comparisons. Once a team goes ahead they often concede possession diluting the significance of that statistic.

Although a chance is a chance and a goal is a goal, the defensive intensity could change the probability of conversion. So the score could affect the xG through that as an instrument. I’m sure they review the model where the persistent irregularities show. This would be looking to see if your model produces error terms distributed around zero, i.e. the model captures the mean behavior and the random stuff washes out in layman’s terms.

Paul Birmingham
393 Posted 02/10/2023 at 21:19:33
David, good point about Gana.

The team lost its shape without him, and the last 20 minutes, saw PIckford and Tarkowski reverting to ale house long ball punts.

It seems many view Gana as the weakest link in the midfield.

I thought Everton played without fear at Brentford and Villa, but they played with fear after the 2nd goal, and the rest of the game.

Will Sean Dyche play with a different starting line-up? Who knows… but he must get a win as the powder keg with the short fuse will be smoking.

It's a must-win v Bournemouth; if Everton can make the same amount of chances they have in the last 3 games, hopefully they can put the game out of sight by half-time.

Wishful thinking...


Barry Hesketh
394 Posted 02/10/2023 at 21:25:32

I don't know about OMGs but there were quite a number of "Oh! FFS"s, during Saturday's game at Goodison.

Dale Self
395 Posted 02/10/2023 at 21:32:05
There is no G in FFS Barry ;)
Denver Daniels
396 Posted 02/10/2023 at 22:48:42
Just because you play nice, easy-on-the-eyes footy doesn't mean you can put the ball in the back of the net. Dinosaur Dyche ball (Fellaini-Moyes ball) or not, you still need to make good decisions in the box and have the composure to put chances away. We don't seem to have that in this team (at home this season at least).

Good and well to blame the coach but jeez, the players need to take a look at themselves. I mean, for fuck's sake Doucouré should have scored our goal and we were lucky Calvert-Lewin was right there because he'd ballsed it up already.

Steve Brown
397 Posted 03/10/2023 at 00:46:05
Sam @ 345, who decided to sign Patterson and Mykolenko is one of the great football mysteries – like where is Lord Lucan and what happened to Shergar? I am sure we will never find out as no-one will own up to it given how bad they are.

Even if Benitez exited in January, he would have been involved in the scouting and review with Brands to target the players before the January window in 2022. It was all part of Benitez's approach to oust Digne in the same way as he did with James Rodriguez.

As for selling Digne, would we have been better with Digne or Mykolenko as our left-back since January 2022? The answer is pretty self-evident.

Alan J Thompson
398 Posted 03/10/2023 at 05:15:06
Statistics versus observation? I tend to judge the quality of a pass on whether the pass is an incisive one that sets up a move, an eye for an opening or puts another player in a scoring position, clears a crowded position and the movement of the player after making the pass.

Nothing wrong in a short pass to a nearby player as long as you don't then just stand and watch but move either into space or take an opponent with you.

Using Gana as an example and not meant as a criticism, his passes appear to me to be mostly either to a wide player, winger or full-back or alternatively, and mostly, to Onana. My dilemma then seems to be that I have no statistics to back this up and neither does there seem to be statistics to say who passes to whom or what they do after.

However, do statistics show that Pickford makes not only the teams most successful passes of more than 30 yards/metres but also the most unsuccessful?

Ian Jones
399 Posted 03/10/2023 at 08:38:42
I watched Sky Sports yesterday evening and was interested to hear Frank Lampard's views on football in general and there was a bit about Everton which was worth watching. Shame it didn't work out for him with us.

However, what was more interesting was Jamie Carraghers's analysis on Everton's defending at corners. Seems Luton had done their homework on us and we fell for it. There was a series of corners leading up to and including the goal. It seems both Mykolenko and Branthwaite got sucked in by Luton's tactics, were targeted and held down, effectively blocked off so that they couldn't defend. When the first goal goes in, Branthwaite turns to the ref and seems to complain but that's about it. Ref is watching all the grappling and not interested. This holding of players by all teams is a bit ridiculous these days but I suppose it's part of the modern game.

My conclusion is that they both need to get used to the dark arts of football.

But very clever from Luton.

I haven't got a link to the Carragher footage but if you look at the following link, if you are interested, the relevant bit is around 2.20 mins in, about a 90 second watch - worth looking at it.


Ernie Baywood
400 Posted 03/10/2023 at 09:21:28
Ian, we're half decent at those arts in attack (Doucoure is an expert blocker) so you'd hope we could figure it out in defence.

Mind you if we can't figure out that a big bloke with a number 9 on his back might be worth marking then the dark arts might be a step too far right now.

Lee Robinson
401 Posted 03/10/2023 at 10:57:36
I re-watched the game for some reason and I'm more annoyed than last Saturday. It seemed like the only tactic was lofted aimless balls into the box looking for knock downs and win second balls. The crosses are mainly from deep, no dragging of full backs with overlapping wingers or crosses from the wing, absolute bread and butter for Luton. This shows to me there was no game plan, If we don't score fresh out the blocks we lose confidence and revert to wasteful possession and the easy way out.

I also re-watched the Bournemouth highlights from last year, funny enough same old lofted balls into the box for most of our chances and luckily Doucoure scores a screamer from a knockdown, but this surely cannot be our only tactic at home unless we play on the counter away from home. Very worried about Dyche going forward that side is better than that.

David West
402 Posted 03/10/2023 at 12:08:10
DALE 364.
Fair point about how they actually use previous game situations and archive to come up with an xg. But are they using previous Everton Data or the whole league ? arsenal, City or Chelsea ?

An expected goal for city with Haaland clean through ? So if ganas in the same position as Haaland he's expected to score ??

Because if they used previous Everton Data to work out our xg and the trove of Everton game situations surely very rarely we would expect goals !!! With our recent goal scoring exploits.

If you are out scoring your xg what does that prove ?? You are lucky ??
If you are scoring less than your xg does that mean you are not as good as the other teams in the league ie Chelsea, arsenal, City etc ?? Well we know that don't we ??

Mark Ryan
403 Posted 03/10/2023 at 14:20:27
Lots of talk about xG, whatever that is! But not so much about the elephant in the room and that is Dyche himself.

Many saying words to the effect of "We cannot afford to sack him" or "It's the players' responsibility blah blah" yet, come Saturday, if we collapse to Yawnmouth, how many of the people saying "We mustn't sack him" will turn?

I hear and read lots of reasons to twist but I've not heard a rational argument as to why we must stick with him.
He's failed to turn Goodison into a fortress whereas, when he was at Burnley, at least he made them hard to beat.

Anyone have a reason to keep him? I'd be interested to hear the good he has done so far this season.

David West
404 Posted 03/10/2023 at 15:24:37

Lampard, Benitez, Ancelotti, Allardyce, Silva or Koeman could turn Goodison into a fortress!!! What made you think Dyche could while spending absolutely nothing??

I think, if results continue, it will become untenable, but likewise a couple of good results and we are back up the table.

No reason them players on Saturday couldn't beat Luton, talk formations and subs and tactics all you want. The players aren't performing consistently.

It will fall on the manager, of course. But we will be left with the same inconsistent players.

Dale Self
405 Posted 03/10/2023 at 16:30:16
David 402, I don’t do the research for a competent summary of their methods. First, I believe they are using data from several leagues but are segmenting their analysis to account for performance differences. Ultimately an xG rating will have the subject’s own league weighted most in the estimates.

Also, there are obvious factors that stat guys will try to account for in their model. Whether that includes some confidence factor I’m not sure (the player’s probability to convert could be adjusted by his past running average). In addition, the location of the attempt and surrounding defenders will affect the estimate as well as the quality of the keeper. The actual posture of the player and other subtle factors could be difficult to measure but I suspect an attempt is made.

And on interpretation, if your team is registering actual goals above what the xG stat estimates you are over performing relative to other subjects. Where you go from there will involve much more detailed analyses. xG will basically help evaluate if the system is producing goal opportunities and if players are converting chances relative to other clubs in that league. Data from other leagues may help establish a sturdy statistical foundation but the subject’s own league is heavily weighted in the final estimate.

I would bet that they have borrowed or reinvented the technolgy that allowed FIFA to model player specific qualities in their difital representation. Apply that to a tecorded game using AI and ta da, you’ve got a wealth of data to test various models

Mark Ryan
407 Posted 03/10/2023 at 16:45:11
Different players and different managers. I don't compare Ancelotti's time with his time at Chelsea. Neither Benitez when he was across the park or even now. The wrong managers were chosen for us at the wrong times.

I'd have Silva back now but not Koeman… but spouting these names gets us nowhere. What's done is done. Was Dyche the correct call at the time? Yes, he was IMO but he's now proving that this job is beyond him.

We need fresh impetus to lift these players. I think we actually have a group that could do okay but we must change the manager. No good hoping for some wins with Dyche. His record with us is abysmal X frickin G or not. We need him gone.

I'll wait and see what happens after Saturday. I expect more of the same served up. If we win, I'll be staggered, truly. I cannot see a game plan. I'd still like to hear what he has done for us so far that's worthy of us keeping him?

Charles Brewer
408 Posted 03/10/2023 at 17:49:08
After all of the chat about xG and Dyche's apparent view that xGs are a good thing I rthought I'd ask an AI what they are.

It turns out (according to GPT4) that there's a calculation with 4 parameters:

1. Location of shooter

2. Part of body used for shot (I love the images that brings to mind)

3. Origin of the pass

4. Nature of the attack

5. Position of defenders and goalkeeper.

This seems inadequate for Everton.

It omits 'the Barlow factor': "Does the player go to pieces in the box", the Niasse - bovine exponent "Probability of hitting a cow's arse with a banjo from 2 feet" factor, the Kone adjustment, "Does he resemble something to do with getting in the way of traffic" and the Tosun-viscosity coefficient "Does he move slower than treacle".

Dale Self
409 Posted 03/10/2023 at 18:17:38
A ChatGPT reponse is not necessarily a full list of model features. Perhaps if you tweak the question posed it would be fuller but that list is light imo.
Charles Brewer
410 Posted 03/10/2023 at 19:04:55
Dale, I wasn't being entirely serious!

And it was GPT4, not ChatGPT (which is still stuck in 2021 when we would play properly).

Mick Davies
411 Posted 03/10/2023 at 19:43:29
I for one am sick of this Maginot Line mentality which the hierarchy at Everton find so attractive when selecting managers. It is outdated, unsuccessful and not very entertaining, in an industry based on entertainment.

Not since Martinez have we seen consistent attempts to win games, as opposed to not losing, and the worst example of this is Dyche and his inexperienced 'yes men'. They stand on the line with boards and pens like they're conducting a government survey, instead of watching individuals and how they perform.

And as for the structure at deadball situations, I'm sure none of those players have been told what to do when having to defend them. If this is what we're in for over the next 8 months, then start preparing the routes to Hull, Plymouth and Swansea etc, as our days at the top table are history – thanks Bill

David West
412 Posted 03/10/2023 at 19:47:57

At some point we have to give someone a chance to build something. Giving mangers less than 12 months to turn us around what several managers have been unable to do, just tells me a manager needs more time.

By the time a manager has worked out who he can trust who he wants to keep, who to build a team around hes heading for the door, and a new man has to start all over.

I don't think Dyche is a long term answer to get us challenging for Europe at the top of the league.

But he can bring stability, mid table stability I think.

Stability is what's needed with all the off field goings on, a couple of results would see us firmly mid table.

We don't want that long term, but we must walk before we can run.

Of course we want better results, better performance and if it doest come he will go.

No ones ever going to turn us round if a few bumps on they road mean your sacked.

Barry Hesketh
413 Posted 03/10/2023 at 19:54:20
I think we should stick with Dyche for the time being, unless there is somebody out there who is better and is cheaper.

However, four successive home defeats and seven out of eight home defeats bridging the end of last season and this, is not a bump in the road.

Dale Self
414 Posted 03/10/2023 at 19:56:14
Charles 410, sorry man. I get a little sensitive about statistics stuff. I’ll turn it down a bit.
Mark Ryan
415 Posted 03/10/2023 at 20:13:56
I sense we are sidetracked by off-field concerns. I don't see Dyche's results as a bump in the road. It's a full-on road block and we are getting diverted by all the off-field shenanigans and xG mullarkey. He is full of shit.

We are sleepwalking into a full-on relegation battle which, with him in charge, we'll lose this time. We need a filip to change track. He is not stabilising the ship but I won't go on because it bores the arse off me.

I can't change a thing by stating the bleeding obvious. I'm worried we are going to do a Frank and give him too much rope. If we do, he'll hang us.

Mick Davies
416 Posted 03/10/2023 at 21:29:28
Well, Burnley winning at Luton makes it so much harder to take.

I sense Luton will only win two matches this season.

Jim Bennings
417 Posted 03/10/2023 at 22:01:24
Luton are shockingly poor but somehow we gave them their easiest half they'll ever have while leading 2-1 away from home in that second 45 minutes.

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