I'm probably gonna regret asking… but what does this even mean?

And presumably, if you identify as 'woke' then you are automatically offended?

They should really at least provide a compendium of 'woke foreign ideologies' that we can review and decide whether we like them or not. Rather than this blanket exclusion order.

More to the point, why couldn't fucking Uefa just ignore this as fan banter and high jinks? Who exactly is being targetted and is suffering discrimination here? The Wagner Group???

Or is that the point? Trump and Musk have now infiltrated the bad Bhoys of Ibrox...

I’m woke, proud to be woke, proud to “be aware and empathetic of social injustices”

People against “woke” just hate minorities, equality and inclusion.

Emma, that's complete rubbish. (IMHO).

It is a bit contradictory as they say "defend Europe" from "foreign" woke ideologies.

Where do these "foreign" ideologies come from? The Middle East? Africa? North Korea? Cuba?

Newsflash: "Thick people unfurl daft banner and get an unwitting football team in trouble"

I don't really know what the definition of woke is, if there is one.

Emma, that's not the case and a bit strong. I do know that a lot of the population has concerns about certain matters and issues, but it's not always hatred towards minorities, equality and inclusion.

Suggesting that and dismissing those concerns, alienates groups of the population who are labelled just as some label so called woke. It actually fuels bad feeling.

Back to the subject of banners. I'm supposing that on the 2nd of April, we will be subject to having to face that disgraceful taunting banner celebrating Steaua Bucharest's 1986 European Cup victory.

Making a joke out of one of football's major tradegies that they caused and is airbrushed from their history. They really do not have any shame.

I'm sorry, Emma, but that characterization couldn't be any further from the truth.

Hi Danny,

I am with you not fully aware of the definition of woke but, at 84 years old, I am just happy that I woke up this morning feeling refreshed after a decent night's sleep.

Woke me up before you go-go!

That'll do for me, Bill!!

I personally think that a lot of European politicians should be investigated over the contracts that will have been given to their friends and families, with regards contracts for everything regarding Covid, and then the contracts that will have been given to the powers that be over this illegal immigration racket.

They froze the bank accounts of the oligarchs, so I'd love someone to start looking into the bank accounts of a lot of these politicians, and the people that are close to them.

Everywhere you look, there seems to be posters of Allah advertised on billboards. Why do people want to start advertising their prophets on buses and in train stations or billboards at the side of the road?

I suppose this might/will make me sound racist, especially to the people who have a completely absurd attitude like Emma @2, but in all honesty, I'm curious, and although it goes against my most natural policy of just live and let live, I would love someone to be able to make me understand why Allah is getting advertised all over our country.

Woke was originally framed by the BLM campaign in the US to raise awareness of racism, before it was hijacked by white people to signal their own virtue campaigns.

Before FIFA fine the club, they should ask the Rangers thickos to be more specific about which “woke foreign ideologies” they want to defend Europe from.

My money is still on the Catholic Church.

We have enough woke and PC thinking in the UK thank you very much, I think they should be complaining about that.

We have been effectively gagged from pointing out issues that are plain and obvious to any sensible person.

Tony, I doubt that there posters of Allah anywhere.

It is forbidden in Islam to make a physical representation of the prophet.

Sorry, Steve, advertisements about Islam itself then. You must have seen them mate, they are cropping up everywhere, places like the beginning or the end of the M62 by the Rocket.

'TRUST IN ALLAH - give ZACAT' are what it says.

Emma. You be what you want to be. Other people have a right to their opinions and beliefs. Sadly hatred works both ways. Stay safe

Google Kathy Burke's comments on being proud to be woke.

Steve Brown 12,

Yeah, I didn't realize Rangers now support Pan European cultures and identities. I thought their interest was confined to what happens in Shankhill where foreign ideology was introduced to the natives by the British centuries ago.

I live in a very diverse, multi-cultural, multi-religious area. Hindus and Sikhs with Indian roots. Catholics from Poland and West Africa. Muslims from the likes of the Middle East, Afghanistan and Pakistan. There is a sizeable Irish community too and a nearby Gaelic Sports Club.

About half of the Uber drivers who pick me up are from Afghanistan and we happily talk about the places I went to when I spent in total of about a year of my life there. Afghanistan is a good example of what extremism can do and give it a louder voice than the mainstream. Most of the locals were hospitable and just wanted to get on with their lives. The Taliban. Just plain evil bastards. Sorry for blaspheming. I have no other words.

Tolerance is key. Live and let live. It goes both ways.

I personally think it is dangerous to allow a minority to have a louder voice than the majority. It generates resentment and is perceived as favouring certain elements. Inclusiveness and equality is exactly what it says on the tin. Let extremists dictate the narrative and we're on the path to trouble. Sometimes serious trouble as we've seen in the past on many occasions.

I once done a course on Religion and Conflicts, as most wars have had a religious undertone or religion has been used as a tool to whip up frenzy by political and religious leaders.

Back to banners. I hope those responsible are taking the "We Built this City in 1878" one to Anfield.

After the recent League Cup final, I was talking to a friend who supports Newcastle. Somehow, we strayed onto Heysel (him not me) and when Liverpool and Juventus met in Europe a few years back. At Anfield, when the Kop held up one with the Italian word "Amicizia" (translates to friendship), to which the Juve supporters turned their backs. In return leg, the Italians held up a response "Easy to speak, difficult to pardon".

Brilliant Bill (8): I wish you many thousand mornings more.

Michael K (1): are you being deliberately provocative when you refer to "the bad Bhoys of Ibrox..." mate?

Raymond F (13): I feel that your post is as bankrupt in its conception as Emma's (2) in the other corner.

"We have enough woke and PC thinking in the UK thank you very much, I think they should be complaining about that. We have been effectively gagged from pointing out issues that are plain and obvious to any sensible person".

Who is this "we" Raymond? Who is it that you are acting as self-appointed spokesperson for? I'm genuinely interested as in knocking what you feel are the opinions of others you do not tell us what your exact position is except that you are "sensible".

Your second sentence is comedy gold Raymond and the classic fallback position for any conservative (is conservative the right word?) - I'm not calling you a conservative, by the way - who is uncomfortable with and struggles with DEI matters.

You are not "gagged" Raymond. Here you are declaiming on these pages. "Gagged", I think, and again I'm not saying that this is you Raymond, is the usual specious sidetracking of someone who for whatever reason is unwilling or unable (maybe challenged is better) to engage constructively wih DEI practices and principles.

Kieran, although I haven't bothered pursuing, I could apply for an Irish passport by virtue of my Grandfather.

Although he was from Northern Ireland, he was born before the partition, so it was still Ireland then.

Now there is another place I spent a total of 3 years in watching how two communities can rip themselves apart. Again led by a very vocal and extremely violent minority on both sides, with religion at the centre of it.

Paul F @ 20. Nobody is louder than those who have been silenced.

Tony,

I think those ads are charities raising money for relief in Gaza.

I don't think it's about advertising the religion as such. Might be wrong.

Robert, at the Brighton away match earlier this season, I went for a walk around as I was early. As I left the station, their was group, all white English with Palestinian flags and placards shouting "Help for Gaza", with collection buckets for donations. All wearing Brighton tops, probably to influence the supporters in and around the station or heading to the city centre pubs.

Now, I've no issue with collecting for people in need, but I thought I'd stop and talk to them. All friendly, no animosity and they were making their stance peacefully.

Playing Devil's advocate, I asked them why the Palestine flags and no Iraeli ones? It took them back a bit, but I followed on and asked one gentleman what his opinion on Hamas' murder of over 1,000 Israelis was.

My final question was, what are you trying to achieve?

His response was they just wanted peace for all in the region. I said good luck with that. People have been trying that for centuries.

I shook his hand, wished him well and carried on my walk.

I don't even know what that message means, in truth I don't know specifically what, who it's actually referring to. Racist? Probably. It's a label created to belittle, ridicule or invoke contempt for policies that often protect groups from the excesses of self above all?

Is a charity by definition woke? Is giving aid woke? Is protection of the weak woke? Are racial, sexual or religious, discrimination policies woke?

It's a label used as a tool by callous or stupid politicians and its media, people to justify their political (usually) leanings. But after all my own ramblings, if being anti woke is being played out in the USA at the moment, then human nature is controlled by fear and hate of anyone or anything that means change. Not in my book.

PS This is a football site, I hate with a vengeance that poster, as I did those Oil protestors gluing themselves to goal posts, it's football, a place I try to enjoy for the love of the game, far from the excess of life!

Paul, I think a lot of that is very fair. A lot of fairly nuanced subjects get hijacked on social media to not very constructive effect. Much of this is driven by knobheads (my opinion) on either side of debates stirring things up just to remain relevant / paid as a self styled spokesperson.

Danny, a bit unkind I know, but I think the people you spoke to fall in my "thick people" category that I mentioned in comment 5 - possibly stirred to action by the knobheads I mentioned in comment 26.

Again, might be wrong.

Democracy would be great if everybody didn't just have their own opinions about everything.

It's okay Robert. I know what you meant. I'm very well read and experienced on this subject and could talk about it all day. Likewise Europe, but again, that comes from experience and probably best not to mix subjects, although they have similar challenges to us, which is giving rise to the far right.

Key phrase Robert: "knobheads (my opinion) on either side of debates".

Thanks Robert. what is happening in Gaza is above anything else, inhumane, and I think Danny, is correct when he mentions that a large proportion of wars, tend to be about religion. I can understand the outrage but it puzzles me that there was never the same outrage for the civilians in Syria, when you look at the same disgusting atrocities that these people also suffered, with the help of an outside regime.

That's beautifully flexible Andrew (22) and could mean several things. Can I nick if off you?

Tony @31,

No-one can justify the Hamas attack that killed 1,000 Isralies, but neither can anyone justify the level of response which is described by many as genocide. If it's not it seems pretty dammed close to me.

The old saying "Two wrongs don't make a right" just about sums it up.

What the hell's woke?

It's an understatement of huge magnitude to say the Israeli response was way over the top.

It should have been way more targeted. We used to call it courageous restraint. And minimise civilian collateral. They have one of the best and most modern and effective militarys in the world, but went all WW2 in terms of tactics.

Same with the Assad regime backed by Russia as Tony calls out.

Hmmm so no incisive clarity on what the fuck this banner might mean?

Yes, Christine, I know it's not what we want, and apologize for my curiosity in seeking enlightenment from the greater ToffeeWeb Collective – but, in my defence, it is football-related.

And yes, Paul, I think 'Bhoys' is Celtic; perhaps I was trying to be generically Glazwegian (while studiously avoiding any reference to Moyes) but hand up for any deliberate provocation on my part.

Some interesting discussion though. I like your gentle probing, Danny. If I tried that, it would probably descend into a shouting match — or worse!

Ever the diplomat Michael!!

Yes. I'm still struggling to know what that banner is getting at.

As I've said before and not blowing smoke but good to have you back in the debates. You're still the TW boxing referee!!

I can never understand “Man's inhumanity to man”.

It happens in most wars but also outside of wars but is beyond belief, to me, that people can kill other people, helpless people and still live with that on their conscience.

That's probably why you're not a politician or a billionaire Dave.

I suppose Michael the literal meaning (do bears do metaphor?) is protect Europe from "woke foreign ideologies" that apparently are invading "unwokey" Europe. Perhaps there are hidden meanings that require a depth and subtlety to understand that only bears have. Or, perhaps, they forgot to bring the fourth banner which would have cleared matters up.

Perhaps it is 2 banners +1. "Keep woke foreign ideologies out" is separate from the single banner "defend Europe". In which case, the first might be a rallying call against anything that is not Scottish or, narrowing the lens, Rome. So, "Defend Europe" is a passionate call against Putin or Trump or both.

Or, perhaps it is three banners: "keep woke foreign' (down with that sort of thing, we don't want it here); "ideologies out" (we are sick and tired of ideologies that cause more harm than good); and Defend Europe", a passionate call against Putin or Trump or both.

I think that I have got to the bottom of it.

Some don't live with it Dave and many struggle.

Politicians send us there without a plan beyond the short term. On our side, only a select few have had an objective.

Liam (39),

I think the richest people are those who have peace of mind and I would have been one of those if I wasn't an Evertonian, especially these last 20 years!

You can tell its England week by how much traction this thread has got.

International breaks have a lot to answer for!

Great leveller Dave. I think we all would be. I can't look at how much I spend on our club.

My early lived perk of only paying £5 for Sunday's tickt was more than cancelled out by the £85 return train ticket and whatever I spend when I'm there.

Liam, these types of threads are great, seeing the different views. As long as sportsmanship prevails!!!

My own opinion is that Michael has been retained by the new owners because of his ability to keep this website going even when there is no football to argue about…👍👏😂

Talking of genocide, I will try again because I've already had one post deleted, but I was reading that the human rights lawyer, Sir Kier Starmer, successfully defended a few Rwandan warlords from being deported back to their country from the UK where they were wanted for mass genocide.

Good on Kier because they would obviously have faced the death penalty and this is not something that our politicians believe in. But, if this is true, he his no better than Putin looking after that horrible Syrian leader, Assad.

BG @ 8 I'm with you boo-boo - just glad I woke this morning and every other morning so far.

Other than that I have no idea what the word means nor am I in the least interested. All I know is that there has been far too much verbage on this thread about it.

Danny (41) True enough, and from the First World War “Lions led by Donkeys” comes to mind.

Also Thatcher putting the wounded out of view during the victory celebrations after the Falklands War and this country not doing enough for those who suffered during many wars but left to their own devices after those wars.

And being fair, Blair should find it hard to sleep after letting Bush lead him into that war in the Middle East.

Danny, I love your posts on this thread.

I like to be woke at least once a day.

Normally at about 7am.

Totally on slippery Blair, Dave, who lied to take us there.

In Afghanistan we lost over 450 military personnel. What was never reported was the wounded, with life changing injuries. A PC way okaying loss of limbs.

I used to visit the Headley Court rehabilitation centre to visit one of my lads who had both his legs blown off. Humbling. One of the worst experiences of my life was meeting his parents and brother. You have no words in those situations. The lad was 21 at the time.

Paul @ 32 help yourself mate

Well you put the left wing in, the right wing out
In, out, in, out, you shake it all about
You do the wokey cokey and you turn around
That's what it's all about

Oh oh the wokey cokey...

Just wrote a long epistle on the self righteousness indignation of the anti woke far right and deleted it all..
Something to do with what you shouldn't do in the wind...
Just another word to blame.

I can see that first line getting changed by more and more people Liam, such is the galling tone of the phoney when he utters the words “far right thugs’

Paul - 40 - what a brilliant, well thought out post.

Paul H (34) and Robert W (46), you could actually read all the comments and then you’d get the gist of ‘woke’.

From Emma there is “to be aware and empathetic of social injustices”, and from Christine “policies that often protect groups from the excesses of self above all”.

Like anything administered by human beings the good intentions can be hijacked or used as a screen by people who actually have ulterior motives, but to be willingly against (or even not interested in) the basic principle / ethics seems fairly ‘extreme’ to me.

Tony 54, the second verse swaps them around anyway, such is the meaningless vacuity of the term woke.

And, while I'm at it, which also applies to the idiotic banner at a Sevco match.

Danny and Dave, I'm always surprised when I see it written that Blair let Bush lead him into war.

From this Yank's perspective Blair had twice the intellect of Bush, who had all the "leadership" skills of the average basset hound. Bush was manipulated with ridiculous ease by a vice president whom I would have characterized as the epitome of evil before the current regime checked in. (A regime that considers Iraq and Afghanistan vets worthy of only neglect, derision and, in the past few weeks, large-scale firings from their jobs.)

Anyway, if Blair actually "followed" Bush he's a much weaker man than I would have thought possible.

MK, my I give my definition of the term "woke"
For me, it is a pejorative term used by those who don't give a fuck, to describe those who do.

Straight talking as always Andy!!

Andy #59, you just made me laugh out loud. Brilliant.

Nobody does it better in one sentence than you do.

That's mike-drop worthy Andy.

Let's end the thread with that and talk about football (said more in hope than expectation)

Brilliant Andy #59

It's as simple and yet as complex as that.

Hope those who admitted earlier in the thread to having no understanding of the term stuck around long enough to be educated.

I think you have got Blair right, but his intentions totally wrong Mike?

Blair has had a great career, and became a very prominent and wealthy man, and this is something that weak politicians rarely achieve.

Blair was a devious bastard, but I suppose you don’t go far if you’re not a devious bastard in the very murky world of politics.

Left or Right, Liam, or is it clowns to the left and jokers to the right? Vote left or vote right, isn’t democracy wonderful🤦‍♂️

Two weeks without Everton, hopefully you are going to watch your lad play this weekend Liam💙

This just today on ESPN, relating to the legendary American hero who broke baseball's color barrier in 1947:

The Department of Defense restored a story on its website highlighting Jackie Robinson's military service Wednesday after deleting it as part of President Donald Trump's efforts to purge references to diversity, equity and inclusion through a "digital content refresh."

While it does not make any references to DEI, the story on Robinson was among a swath scrubbed from government websites in recent days. Before the story on Robinson's service was restored, the URL had redirected to one that added the letters "dei" in front of "sports-heroes."

In a statement sent by the Pentagon at 1:24 p.m. ET Wednesday, press secretary John Ullyot cited Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth in saying "DEI is dead at the Defense Department" and said the Department of Defense was "pleased by the rapid compliance" that led to the erasing of stories on Robinson, Navajo Code Talkers and Ira Hayes, one of six Marines who raised the American flag at Iwo Jima.

America, 2025.

Whilst the human brain is capable of the worst of what man can do to each other, there will never be a world of peace and respect. There never has been. Conflicts have been going on for ages. Dave@38. Excellent post.

Last one from me, but this has been good debate.

Mike, Blair was not so much led, more that he wanted to be involved and stand alongside Bush and the US. In honesty, it was probably due to the raw feeling after 9/11. And also, that in reality, through most of recent history, it's only really been the UK and US that have done this with contribution from Australia, Canada, New Zealand and some of the European nations.

Anyway, I'll get back to football. Apologies if I overshared. Wait until the build up and after the derby!!

Maybe UEFA can tell us what it means, after all they seem to be offended by it.

I read a few comments saying I’m wrong on what “woke” means.

One mentions it’s started with the Black Lives Matter movement- yet it’s been around for decades.

And it literally means to be empathetic to social injustices, against discrimination- my core principles.

Roger says what does this have to do football? The anti woke folk hate things like football against homophobia campaigns etc, only have to scroll through comments on Facebook on clubs campaigns, Everton included to see how backwards the world is going, it’s absolutely vile, go and spend time talking to Paul at his rainbow toffees merchandise stall on match days, also there’s a rise in hate crimes by 180% in the UK.

That’s what that banner is all about in football terms, “grown men” melting because of a rainbow ffs, my eldest daughter is lesbian, loves football, but doesn’t even want to go games anymore.

Tony @ 11; I blame it all on the rash of (allegedly) money laundering Turkish Barbershops that have sprung up like mushrooms after rain.

We came over for the Bournemouth game and the Missus, as they do, decided she needed her hair done (why she didnt get it all sorted before we went god knows) and we struggled to find a ladies hairdresser - but there was any number of these mens Salons, sometimes 3 in a street ffs.

If it's at all possible - and it apparently seems to be - Trump appears to be increasingly erratic.

This 'deal' over Ukraine stinks and has no obvious benefits other than to Putin.

Maybe he has a more malign form of the bumbling doddery oldmans Biden-itis??

I suspect (hope) that, like Biden they will quietly ( but probably noisily knowing him) sideline him, or if not, they'll have to take him out the door in a straight jacket within 2 years.

I'm not sure he's ever been the full shilling and in my opinion, people don't change - they just become more so.

Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

J.D. Vance - Come on down! Yikes.

I said last one Emma. But discrimination and social injustice works both ways. A white British male in his 50s is scared to have an opinion now in case of being labelled. And that's what you did.

Emma, you're entitled to your views, as is everyone. We live in a free country after all and, within reason, there should be nothing wrong with that however different they are. The way you worded it comes over as woke (given you seem to know what it means) is good, everything outside of that is discriminatory. It's just not the case and is dismissive.

Dave, I go to my local Turkish Barber, but they are actually Kurdish. It's great and took me years to trust someone with a cut throat blade for a smooth shave. Then a hot towel on the head that always nearly sends me to sleep and what they call a massage. I call it being beaten as they manhandle my shoulders, pummel my back and shake my arms in a caterpillar motion from the hands up to the shoulders. I guess I feel better for it afterwards!!

Thanks, Danny #68. I was no expert on Blair but what you describe is kinda what I thought.

You nailed it Andy (59). I'm going to borrow that if you don't mind.

Is this a joke
to entertain us folk
when we'd spoke
about FC Stoke
A lot of smoke
Give me a poke
Oh, now I've awoke
and drank my Coke
But, I'm not a Woke
They are broke
and that's no joke
Just good to be a bloke!

Tony A (64), I actually enjoyed Blair's autobiography. I thought that it would make my blood boil and it did in places but more than that I learned a lot and some of his justifications made me think twice or three times. He is, as you say, smart and astute.

Mind you his autobiography is nowhere near as good as Alastair Campbell's letters which are themselves in the same league as Arthur Schlesinger's letters (on Kennedy etc.).

You missed soak out Bob! I did like that, Thanks.

I have to say Les (69) that I've been firmly lefty all my life (and in my walk of life in universities, it pays to be on the right side of DEI and all the "-isms" - I've just done my required annual evaluation/survey so I am sound for another year, apparently) and I've been struggling all day long to come to a full understanding of this banner. It doesn’t help that it is so poorly expressed, ambiguous, and ungrammatical.

Like you, Les, I would like EUFA to tell us what these banners mean as they must know, I presume, as they are taking action against it. I would like the club to explain exactly why these banners are "shameful" and "embarrassing".

If it boils down to we don't want any woke stuff up here in Scotland and it's harming Europe, then that is a reasonable position and point of view. I completely disagree with it and its disgusting implications for discrimination and social justice. But disagreeing with something is not enough to take retributive actions.

I totally support Emma's second post (70) and I’m glad that she expanded on her first one. Emma might not agree with me, but stating “we don’t want anything woke around here” is for me a reasonable opinion that contrariwise helps to sharpen support for the other side of the coin whenever it needs to be expressed and defended.

And choke, Paul. Soak - dumb me!

Could we have sneaked provoke in somewhere Bob? We might need a second edition.

Tony #11, re: the first half of your post, that's exactly what they're doing in Viet Nam, with imprisonment of those found guilty of corruption and some even getting the death sentence.

On the second half, maybe 'cos it's ramadan?

Tony #11, re: the first half of your post, that's exactly what they're doing in Viet Nam, with imprisonment of those found guilty of corruption and some even getting the death sentence.

On the second half, maybe 'cos it's ramadan?

Hey Paul,

Provoke and choke fit well. Can you suggest a way to fit soak.

It's great to have some rain today for the first time in months. The ground needed a soak. (not suggesting this fits, though).

Is this a joke
to entertain us folk
when we'd spoke
about FC Stoke
A lot of smoke
Give me a poke
Oh, now I've awoke
and drank my Coke
But, I'm not a Woke
They are broke
easy to provoke
prone to choke
and that's no joke
Just good to be a bloke!

What I see is "woke" people getting offended on behalf of the DEI when the DEI are not offended, or don't even know that they should be offended, by something someone said that wasn't even meant to be offensive.

I'd describe myself as anti-woke but all my life have been supportive of minorities, equality and inclusion, before all this woke nonsense came about.

Seems to me that the youth of today think that they invented the DEI and despite having Google, have no idea of what went on in the 60's and 70's with the various DEI movements.

Bob #83, finish it with "I'm going for a soak"??

Bob #83, finish it with "I'm going for a soak"??

Bob #83, finish it with "I'm going for a soak"??

If I may Bob:

Is this a joke?
to entertain us folk
when we'd spoke
that last time in Stoke
A lot of smoke
Give me a poke
Before I croak
Oh, now I've awoke
In my sweaty bed I soak
I must drink my coke
This all sounds Baroque
But, I'm not a Woke
They are broke
easy to provoke
prone to choke
and that's no joke
Just good to be a bloke!

Sorry I'm repeating myself, either my internet has gone wonky or the edit function on this page has.

Edit: All fixed now!!

Bob @ 83;
..."prone to choke
and that's no joke
Just good to be a bloke"

With no views I'll revoke
Lest with scorn I am soaked

Interesting thread! (It is international week after all...)

I think also some recent context is worth adding to the mix, a recent survey found that Gen Z (born between 1997 and 2012) think UK would be better under a dictatorship. They also think the UK is racist, and would not fight for their country.

I have a lot of sympathy for younger people. They're largely destined to spend their lives in debt, or at least struggling to get a financial foothold. Many had their education experience ruined by Covid.

I also struggle to empathise, when you hear from employers about difficulties in assimilating some fresh graduates/school leavers into the workforce. Ranging from "I'm not feeling it today" to an outright refusal to answer phone calls as they lack the confidence or skill-set to communicate in other than emojis. Good job most of UK business outsources its call centres then...

From tipping statues into rivers, and demanding reparations for behaviour centuries ago - go ahead. Newsflash - the country is skint, and likely is going to be for another generation. Productivity is low for an industrialised country, and now a Labour government is having to reduce welfare and focus more on the origins of the party - workers. Welfare was supposed to be a safety net, not a way of life (and that is not to disparage genuine cases, of which there are many, and many who are not getting the help they need).

The problem is nobody really gives a fuck anymore. Parliament is rammed with self-interest or far left/right campaigners. There's very few "ordinary, decent" men and women now seeking to go into politics for "the greater good" - why would you, with all the online hate?

For the conspiracy theorists, there's a school of thought which suggests a lot of this alternative narrative is pushed by overseas powers who would seek to weaken the fabric of a country. From influencing elections, to "dumbing down" the populace - compare TikTok in China to the rest of the world - one is patriotic and educational, the other is full of people doing silly dances or teaching you how to make welfare claims. Why would the algorithms be so different?

I spent nearly 10 years living in a country that would be described as a one-party state. Another 10 years in one that was absolutely not a democracy. As well as seeing missiles (mercifully) shot out of the sky, I also saw the troll farms - where batteries of (mainly young) people are using social media to stoke up tension in other countries.

I'm lucky enough to now live in jungle, on an island, close to the sea. Mainly because I have no solutions anymore.

And I don't think "Influencer" is a proper job. If that makes me a relic, so be it!

Eric (84), from this post it seems like you may be mistaking what ‘woke' has erroneously become defined as, ie, the tendency of a lunatic fringe to over-egg well-meaning policies and turn them into a caricature of what they were intended to be, rather than understanding what it actually is.

'Woke' is about supporting the core principles of diversity, equity and inclusivity programs, not about being part of the lunatic fringe that take things too far.

I think you think that by stating you are anti-woke you think you are declaring you are fed-up with the lunatic fringe, but you are saying you don't support the diversity, equality and inclusivity principles you state you have long held.

Like a lot of us who have never used it as a label, you are actually ‘woke' but against those policies going too far and becoming equally as odious as the prevalent prejudices they are supposed to guard against.

The whole terminology appears to have become confused, possibly because ‘snowflake' turned up in the UK around the same time and being a ‘snowflake' is apparently synonymous with being ‘woke' in some people's minds.

Being ‘woke' is not an indication of any form of extremism; being ‘anti-woke' is not an indication, in and of itself, of rationality.

That's good, Paul.

And thanks Eric and Derek.

Emma # 70, sorry to hear about the awful experience your daughter has had. I think you will find a lot of this thread very depressing since the word 'woke' triggers different reactions.

I can't speak for everyone but I do think a lot of the people on here who don't like the label 'woke' (which rightly or wrongly does mean a lot of different things to different people) would be really very supportive of your daughter.

Anyway, thought I'd mention it and hope your daughter's experience improves.

If you don’t mind Bob.

I had nothing else to do ……..

Is this a joke?

To entertain us folk

Whose spirits I invoke

When we last spoke

For the second time in Stoke

Before your third stroke

You had egg and artichoke

There was a lot of smoke

That I cannot now evoke

Give me a poke

You reticent slowpoke

I refuse to croak

You kicked me in the epitoke

Oh, now I've awoke

In my sweaty bed I soak

I must drink my coke

Even it if was bespoke

This all sounds Baroque

A meeting I shall convoke

Near Oxford in Begbroke

Or in London in Portsoken

But I can never be a broker

I‘d rather catch sunstroke

Quiet, I am not a cowpoke

And I'm not a Woke

This is not to equivoke

Your message I revoke

We’ve all lived under that yoke

Under the ancient Dane Palnatoke

Unyoke me, unyoke me

For they are broke

Easy to provoke

Prone to choke

This I did forespoke

I’m sorry I misspoke

And that is not a joke

Just good to be a bloke!

I’ll get my cloak

Si #92, yes, you hit the nail on the head.

My posting problems are not over but it only seems to be this site I have problems with, all others work fine.

Lyndon!! Lyndon!!

Same here, Paul. My golf was rained off but so happy to see the rain at last.

The thread was a bit too serious and so I wanted to lighten it up. Thanks, and your final offering has well and truly outdone mine.

We had snow today and hailstones in the morning and wind, wind, wind.

Bob, you and I should get together and write a song for Eurovision 2026.

I just woke up to read this. Keep politics out of TW is my motto.

The ex-wife was a Muslim of Malaysian and Indonesian forebears and her three children, my step children whom I raised from toddlers, had Irish and Italian paternal grandparents.

Despite what Cockneys say of Scousers, I'm almost pleased after the Sam Kerr case to be part of the race who don't seem to be able to be racially abused even if I had no say in the matter.

What does any of this have to do with a Scottish football club or for that matter not Chelsea?

Robert at 94.

What a lot of people fail to see or realise, is the narrative in politics have weaponised the word 'woke' by populists, to come across as something bad — using it as a way to say woke is the cause for people's lives being shit…

Colin #99,

Hear, hear.

I'm still struggling to understand what the banner(s) actually says.

I'm with Michael in post 1 on that (although “Bhoys of Ibrox”? - you could start a sectarian riot just by printing that, Michael!).

Flags need to be succinct to drive the point home. The best example of this was the one I saw in the Prince George before the Palace game recently. Proudly displayed by three lads and understood and cheered by the whole pub it was a blue bed sheet with a simple but clear message painted in white:

“Liverpool are shit”

I like the one in The Brick, Mark. Under the words "Evertonians are Born not Manufactured", it reads "We are not bitter. We just don't like you"

Quality.

Colin, I don't mind when these debates go off on one. It's fascinating reading the different views,

Rangers dickheads are clearly not able to put 7 words on a single banner.

They are the most bigoted fans in the UK celebrating their links with Chelsea's 'No surrender' brigade and, LOL, the Glentoran and Linfield 'ultras' and, more seriously, Lazio, Partizan Belgrade, and Den Haag.

I suppose that we give too much credit to these unintelligible and inarticulate banners that the poor things were not able to weave into one.

Rangers and red shite have that Souness, Walters, Adam, Diouf, Kyrgiakos and Gerrard affiliation, but Steven and Stevens… hmmmm!

Paul,

When was the last time you visited Celtic Park? Now there's bigotry!

Of all the grounds I never allowed my kids or grandkids to go to either Celtic or Rangers as they're both half daft. However, being a good Catholic myself, Celtic have and still do go to a higher level.

From banners and songs supporting the IRA and killing British troops now to banners and flags supporting Hamas, nothing has ever been said and done by either Scottish or European associations.

Both Clubs have good supporters but both also have nutters and both Clubs should root out and ban their halfwits.

Matt Traynor @91, Great post, Matt, 👏🏻
.
Wherever I have travelled in this world, I find that people are people wherever you go. If you treat them with kindness, respect, humour and friendship, then they will respond in the same way.*

It's when religious fanatics, often stirring up hatred for their own good, politicians and despots raise their evil heads above the parapet that problems arise.

* Even the French...😁

They both have that element ,John. The Loyalist areas flew Union Flags on their lamp posts, the Nationalists flew the Irish Tricolour.

By the time I spent my last tour there in the early 2000s, that had descended into displays on alternate lamp posts of Union Flags and Israeli flags on one side, with Tricolours and Palestinian flags on the other.

I was always a bit perplexed what any of that had to do with Northern Ireland!!

Lazio are a fascist bunch, Paul. Remember Di Canio doing his "salute" in front of the Lazio supporters at the Stadio Olympico? Good footballer, but that was out of order and got him suspended.

I used to live amongst both and went to watch them both several times. I much preferred Roma.

Ray (107), I'll second that Ray — Matt's post @(91).

By the way, Matt, is there any room on that Island, close to the sea where you live, for an aging Scouser who is easy to get on with and not much trouble as long as there is a Post Office on the Island where I can cash my pension!

Emma (#various), I am sorry to hear that your daughter does not want to go the game anymore. I hope it's not because she doesn't feel safe.

I have been in catering all my working life and gay/queer people are part of the team. Even in the early '80s, they were just accepted or you had a staff shortage. You did get the odd idiot but they were normally silenced or moved out.

Take care.

Emma, James,

You'll never rid the world of idiots. Or to use Robert's more direct phrase, knobheads. Your daughter shouldn't be put off by it. I often find smiling or laughing at them is better. James Tarkowski is great at it when someone squares up to him. It winds the other party up. "Stand your ground and don't let the bullies win" as we were taught. They are vulnerable people underneath the aggressive front.

Usually, and especially now, they tend to get sorted out. Let's be honest, we were not immune from bigotry. I remember the chants of "Everton are White" in a small section of the Gwladys Street around where I stood. The problem being, like sheep, many others followed and joined in.

If I remember correctly, it earned us a column in the Mirror newspaper for being amongst the most racist supporters at the time. A bloke who always stood behind us "proudly" — a cheap 'Everton are White' badge on his jacket. For away matches, he used to get on the coach at Runcorn.

I find it strange that many of the wars over the years have been tinted by religious bias. I thought all religions taught love and peace, so why do people from one religion hate people from another religion who supposedly follow the same doctrine of love and peace.

I do reflect if the world would be a better and safer place if there was no religion of any kind, if nothing else it would be one less reason to start a war.

Andy@59, nailed it!

Having been on this planet for nigh on 73 years, I have met and been in the company of many decent, honest genuine people. Like most of ToffeeWebbers.

I've also come across the scum and vile too. Won't go into detail.

My wish from now on is that each and every one of your wishes, and life on this planet, come true. Maybe the scum will be eradicated.

Enough said. Back to the football. Look after yourselves and families.

Tony @ 15, I think all promotion of religion should be banned to be honest.

The last 30 years has seen Christian evangelism and Islamic fundamentalism finding global wars. Bhuddists are oppressing Rohingya Muslims and there is an ultra-Hindu government in India.

If you want to find religion, you can find your own peaceful journey to it.

Brian@112. Greed can be put alongside religion. Yes, we can do without.

“for an aging Scouser who is easy to get on with and not much trouble “

Who’s that then Dave??

Perhaps the Rangers fans don’t want foreign wokery when we can have Best of British wokery.

It is like a Brexit bonus.

Danny you know I love you mate but that last bit referring to where he got on the coach is “a bit off” mate.

I know I'm (overly, perhaps) sensitive about such matters but you can't say racism stops at the wool borders.

Shit – I just thought of something – am I being woke??

See you Sunday when you can keep me out of trouble with the local urchins asking me what the time is…

Brian and Steve,

Yes, especially when those so-called different religions are similar.

Catholic and Protestant. The various factions of Islam.

And it's ironic that, at a higher level, Christianity, Islam and Judaism all have their roots. in the same place and when you read into it, have more similarities than many realise. Just practiced differently.

Derek @ 71,

“I blame it all on the rash of (allegedly) money laundering Turkish Barbershops that have sprung up like mushrooms after rain.”

I think that may be more young men's obsession with personal grooming. My son gets his hair cut every 2 weeks!

Mark (117),

Shush Mark while Matt makes his mind up whether to send for me or not!

Politics and now religion...
I hate these international breaks!
UTFT

Seriously though, how many of these barbershops are there?

There are 2.5 million migrants employed in these barbershops in Yorkshire alone. So much for all these migrants claiming benefits! They just all cut hair!

Dave, you do know he's talking about Craggy Island, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aESiGkygWiw

Steve 121 — never mind hair, my son trims his pubes every other day!

Uses my beard trimmer — as I found out the other day when it jammed!

Too much info, Liam.

Yes, Mark, it ruined my day

Mark (125), Bleedin' case you — You know I'm a Catholic but are warning me about an Island that is full of lovely priests although some of them are round the bend along with the Bishops and visiting Cardinals, I'd have a cracking time there listening to Father Jack!

I wasn't getting at that at all Mark. Regardless of where he came from, he was a distinct character. And he was old school Runcorn, didn't speak like John Bishop.

Best we leave the brotherly love until Sunday. See you in Doctor Duncan's before our timed walk the the Dock.

Bloody hell, Liam, I am going to check my beard trimmer now!

Probably explains the rash.

One of the best telly shows ever, Dave!

I could watch it every day even though I probably know every word.

John #106,

The sectarianism is still shocking between Rangers and Celtic. I've been to Parkhead a good few times, and in pubs before the game, but in my opinion it's still the yobs from Northern Ireland, on both sides who are the biggest culprits.

Going to the Aviva for Ireland games, it's fans from the north singing the same Irish songs, but certain English fans are no different, and are not there for the football.

Is this still an EFC related Website? It certainly used to be that way. If so, why are we even discussing this here? Let the ill-informed shitstorms rage elsewhere.

Now TW even has articles related to rumoured players... strange times. Not my call, just prefer to keep things football related and light-hearted. We blues need to stay positive by any means.

Kevin, sometimes threads go off in different directions. I think this one can largely be related back to the original theme, with a few diversions.

As they say, if you don't like it, there are other football and Everton related threads, so ignore and don't read it.

Father Jack. There are some classic scenes. When Father Ted is ranting about something totally different but to the Chinese visitors (I think), he looks like he's doing an impression of a certain WW2 dictator due to a mark on the window. And the adaptation of the film Speed on the milk float. Some great characters too. Douglas and Father "feck off" Jack.

I also liked the one series, one off, Max and Paddy's Road to nowhere. I great rendition of I guess that's why they call it the blues in one of the episodes.

John Keating 106/ Gerry Ring

Celtic have gotten worse though. Do you remember when O'Neill was manager and they won the 2003 fair play award for being the best happy-go-lucky well behaved fans on the continent? Now they hang effigies and never miss a chance to cause trouble. Which is weird cause the fans of 20 years ago who didn't do that were chronologically "closer" to the troubles than the fans now. Just demonstrates how artificial it all is. Just people looking for an excuse to cause trouble.

Kevin,

We usually loosen the Blue Reins a little when there are no Everton games.

This story is right on the edge, and it was inevitable that there would be 'scope creep' in the responses. But It's football-related and I think a number of fans might share my concern about over-reach by Uefa.

We've always carried Rumour Mill items about linked players and other unconfirmed gossip that people have picked up on and may want to discuss. We used to try and filter the links to only the most probable or the more reliable sources. But that metric itself is difficult to implement, so we may just post them up for interest's sake — knowing full well that 95% of them come to nothing.

But the fact is that speculation over new players is perhaps our most popular topic — after matchday controversies! — and we are in part reflecting that level of interest.

You will probably see new features popping up that you may have concerns about. Our Legal Eagle (Eddie?) has started pointing up stories about the application of football rules and regulations to other clubs… which is something that exercises many Everton fans now, for obvious reasons.

In Player Watch we will try to profile one or two Everton players each week, especially ones on the 'roster' who are perhaps less prominent, such as upcoming academy players.

Perhaps there are other Everton-related things you'd like us to cover?

I've often wondered why, given the similar demographics and history of Gladgow and Liverpool why sectarianism was never as bad down here. And yes I know there were Orange / Green problems here in the past. That has almost totally vanished now, thankfully.
Perhaps football was the reason for such out and out hatred in the west of Scotland rather than tother way round ?
Celtic was I think founded by Irish priests as a means of encouraging " muscular Christianity" amongst the largely impoverished immigrants. Rangers, again I think, was founded as an answer to this Catholic institution.
Down here it all began with Methodism and a way of keeping young men away from demon drink and gambling. As both clubs had their genesis in this movement football never created or had a sectarian element. Even though some people, for some weird reason, like to think there was one.
Ah well, the washings finished. A chaps work is never done !

Max and Paddy??
Paddy McGuinness??
Paddy mcfcukinGuinness is the equivalent twatty knobend to us wools as John just an ordinary lad from Liverpool Bishop is to you lot!
Can’t stand the prick. I’m sure he must stand at the mirror every morning practicing his reet proper Bowltun accent, bah eckerslike tha knows!
Appen!

John Bishop is a wool though Mark

Liam..personally I can't stand this Scouse/ Wool business. Likewise I don't find Bishop remotely funny.
But he was born in Mill Rd.

His hair thinned out a few years ago Mark, but miraculously grew back. He must have done a Rooney.

Alan,

I have my own take on that, although I wouldn't say I'm right.

I think there are a few differences between Liverpool and Glasgow as much as there are similarities.

The Irish links for Liverpool were traditionally more with the south, although that view can be skewed because back then, Ireland was one nation as part of the UK. I would say Glasgow's Irish links are more with Ulster, which is probably where the sectarian similarities come from.

We did have the Orange and Green split, but before my time and I don't think it was ever as severe. The Orange Lodge marches and day out in Southport. Paddy's Day being celebrated. Both by all. Others may have different accounts.

Then there is the dynamic of Liverpool being a major port and one from which many Europeans, emigrated to America from. A lot either couldn't afford the final leg or just decided to stay in Liverpool. And let's not forget the North Welsh influence, with the city unofficially sometimes referred to as the capital of the northern part of the Principality.

Our unique accent has been influenced by all of those factors, although when you watch older footage, it has gradually become stronger and you can tell someone from the north compared to someone from the south of the city.

We've always been a diverse and welcoming city. Maybe not the largest, but the oldest Afro-Caribbean and Chinese communities in the UK, as far as I am aware.

In terms of football, there was a time and there is reading on how Everton were the Catholic club and Liverpool the Protestant club. Aside from the 80s when those half and half bobble hats were the go, with a lot of Everton wearing Celtic and Liverpool Rangers, which wasn't strictly regimented, I've never viewed it like that. It was probably historically linked to a large proportion of Irish Catholics settling in the north end.

I don't think you can make comparisons with Glasgow.

Danny added to that in the 1950's half of the squad was Irish

I know Liam -but he pretends otherwise.

He exaggerates the accent to be “funnier” just like McGuinness.

Neither work.

McGuinness sounds like George Formby back from the dead.

Turned out nice again…ahhh the hilarity when he screeched - Mutherrrrr!

Danny, if only we had a resident Historian from the Scotty road area who could enlighten us on such matters….
The Boys Brigade used to march through Haydock (where that other broader than is natural scouser, Conor Coady is from) with the Orange Lodge every year. My cousins from our mams side, the proddies, used to march with them.
We used to go and cheer them along. There was never any trouble at all although a lot of drinking went on all day.
My aunty Lilly was a proper proddy and used to give us shit when she was pissed but she loved us to heaven and back - it was all a show.
I heard it could get feisty in Liverpool in the 60s but I never witnessed it so May be wrong.
I also remember a big scouse ginger beardy bloke wearing a Blue scarf and a Celtic hat in a mad rage at some Rangers koppites on a bus to the derby once. They got off the bus in fear before he killed them. He was like one of them Viking Berserkers!
He DID mean it!
UTFT

Alan 141 - it was said with tongue firmly in cheek. Having lived outside the city most my adult life, it's something I find quite laughable.

Although my family back home often refer to people as 'fuckin wools', the latest being the lardy based darts phenom Luke Littler.

Where's Mill Road btw?

The sectarianism in Liverpool was arguably as bad/worse than Glasgow until the turn of the 20th century.

It diluted significantly, mainly due to the usual factors (geographical dispersal, slum clearance, inter-marriage, the rise of the labour movement etc) which weren't as prevalent in Glasgow. Also there was significant migration from Northern Ireland to Scotland in the 20th century.

Sectarian attitudes still prevail in some communities especially amongst older generations. I grew up in the Dingle and there were still remnants then - separate schools, egging the marchers on the 4th July etc.

It's all pretty stupid really isn't it? Find the people who are socially and economically most like you and hate them for a subjective reason.

Hi Liam..sorry missed your irony. Mill Rd was a big maternity hospital I'd guess in Everton, somewhere near West Derby road, I'd think.
Think it's been shut for a while.

Cheers Alan. He's still a bishop though is John Bishop!

So Liam...you're a Dingle lad. Norris Green myself.
Why were people marching, celebrating American Independence in Dingle ? And who threw eggs 😁

Ha ha Alan! Bit of a slip by 8 days. I meant the 12th 🫣🤣

I aahsmedly did a bit of egging and was chased through the enogs of the Holy Land by a couple of meaty pissed up flag bearers. Thankfully I was quick at 12 and they were bogged down by sashes and bellies

I havent heard a scouser talk about "wools" for years.

The only people perpetuating existence of "The Wool" seems to me to be the "Wools" themselves.

You mean the 12th Liam

It's definitely still prevalent when I go back to Liverpool Colin.

Even my 17 year old (who himself technically qualifies as a wool) would say he's heard it at least once every time he's been over. And we've been going every home game since he was 4.

Mostly he's heard it from his grandad and wider family tbh!

There you go again Ferry @ 20, kindly keep your condescending insults to yourself.

I don't think I need to change anything in my post its not too difficult to understand.

When’s the last away game you went to Colin?
And you can read it on here or TOF every day.
It irritates me only when it’s implied I can’t be a proper blue or I shouldn’t have an opinion. “What’s it got to do with you” is quite often the ending of a conversation with a stranger at the match.
I bring it up for shits and giggles sometimes on here - them that know me know I’m not really arsed about it all.

Wow this thread blew up since I posted early.

I try to live by "treat others the way I'd like to be treated."

I like to be treated with kindness, respect, and empathy where warranted so it behooves me to treat others the exact same way.

I would certainly find myself disagreeing with others on whatever the political topic of the day is but I also have to constantly remind myself that:

1) Not everyone thinks the way I do.
2) Not everyone has had the same life experiences I have.
3) Behind every opinion is a person.

I was "chosen" 25 years ago. I didn't choose Everton.

It took me years to understand (and have explained to me) what people in Liverpool have been through and why they believe in what they believe. A complete 180 from what I grew up with. A lot of my fellow Evertonians have been patient with this guy from Texas and it has been greatly appreciated.

I guess what I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that when I went to England this past holiday and went to Goodison to watch us play Chelsea (and to Manchester to watch us play City,) I felt like I was with family.

It's just stupid Mark and you do seem to deal with it with patience.

Bill 157 - I'm glad you were treated so hospitality.

I doubt I'd ever visit your home state, mostly because all my ex's live in Texas.

Yes Liam, I'd say Mill Road was in Everton. My youngest brother was born there. Me in Sefton General on Smithdown Road, Wavertree. It's the site of an Asda now.

Mark, my Presbyterian Grandfather, from Belfast, never had any time for religion, politics or the Orange Lodge. He banned my mother from attending the marches when she said she wanted to.

My dad was Catholic and although as late as the 70s, because he was Catholic, pressure from his 6 sisters resulted in a visit from the Priest from St Christophers in Speke reminding her that all her children would have to be christened Catholic. Which we all were.

You know me, I don't do the wool thing. At Brentford, you commented on how many non Liverpool accents you could hear amongst the Evertonians. More and more people move away than previously (look at us) and then have children who grew up elsewhere but still support Everton as fervently as we do. It doesn't bother me where an Everton supporter lives or comes from.

Bill, we are a unique, proud and very independent breed. And once you join it, you become one. Like you say, family.

I have an affiliation with Texas, having worked for a few companies HQ'd there. I was in the UK, but Texas was mothership. I spent quite a bit of time in San Antonio.

Yes Danny, you’re one of the good guys! It’s that Rob lad, who calls me a brummie, and that Dave bloke in the Harlech when he’s in one - they can be very hurtful sometimes..
It’s funny though - here in West Sussex most of my local mates, especially at the 5 a sides or cricket, call me a scouse this or a scouse that (all in good humour) but get all defensive when I retort with “yer cockernee cant” or “fcukin yokel…”
I laugh at it but my southern wife gets annoyed with them as she doesn’t like the strong scouse accents that people on the telly use a la John Bishop, Stephen Graham and even more worserer, Clare Sweeney…
Personally I could listen to Jodie Comer all day and through the night..
I also remember a (scouse) mate of mine at a home game versus Ipswich screaming “fuck off you cockney wankers” at the Ipswich fans…
See you on Sunday at Dr Ds if I make it past the reception committee at Lime Street
Ey oop!
UTFT

Very fair John K (106). I should have written "amongst the most bigoted".

Apparently, according to an older of mine, the terms 'woollyback' and 'wool' came from the old terraced houses in Liverpool, where coal was delivered.

The delivery men would haul the bags of coal onto their backs. Their backs were protected by sheep's wool.

Mark,

I have a season ticket and I just go the match. That's all and if I want to meet friends I will call or WhatsApp them. If I am travelling to away matches (don't get to them all anymore) I make arrangements that way too. Please don't question when was the last game I went to.

I honestly never hear the word "wool" at the game these days, but I will admit to seeing it regularly posted on here - Nearly always from you. I know it is mainly in jest, but I can't think of another poster besides yourself, who regularly uses the term.

If after spending your hard earned to travel and buy a ticket, a fellow blue asks you what it has to do with you. You are better off giving a conversation like that a wide berth anyway.

Danny O: “I remember the chants of "Everton are White" in a small section of the Gwladys Street”.

“Small section”? Let's not beat around the bush, it was a huge chunk of the Street End and Park End (heard all aroud the ground in each nook and cranny), followed by similar to the tune of “Brown Girl ln the Ring”, and then “N …. N …. N …. oi oi oi”

You are more than welcome Mr. Fox (155). You keep posting that banal 70’s stuff, but don’t be surprised when someone feels the need to reply or on second thoughts it might be best to leave you alone in those older times.

Danny, Paul, I remember an incident in the Gwladys Street mid-eighties when a few teenagers (as I also was at the time) had brought bananas with them and when the opposition came out to warm-up they started waving them and making ‘monkey' noises.

They were immediately rounded on and ‘verbally chastised'. The fruit was dropped and stomped on and it was made clear that any more of that behaviour and they'd be made to leave.

I was very proud of that reaction. I have no way of knowing, but it seemed very much the majority view. You did hear chanting but it seemed limited to small pockets to me, and it has always pissed me off that we have been publically labelled as a racist bunch by the likes of Les Ferdinand.

Sadly it only takes a few to attract a label Si or for it to spread as Paul points out. I seem to remember similar banana incidents happening with John Barnes.

Great times to be an Everton supporter, but absolutely not for that reason.

Well, that's me told, Colin!

I wasn't at all questioning your Evertonian credentials. I hear it all the time – I'm obviously more sensitive than you to it.

But I'll stop banging on about it, no probs.

'Keep woke foreign ideologies out – defend Europe'

Really though. WTAF are they on about???/p>

I think that's all what we've struggled to understand, Liam.

At least they gave us a good discussion thread that has literally gone everywhere!!

Si, it was much worse in the 70s mate.

It never did get wiped out, as your post shows. But something did change in the. broader culture, I think. It did become unacceptable in the main to target black players.

I think that Rock Against Racism and the Anti-Nazi League made a difference for some, as well as many voices in music who were highly influential (Weller, Strummer, Bono, Suggs, two-tone). I also believe that the 1981 riots made many aware, perhaps for the first time, of the very deep inequalities in society.

The number of black players also increased at a steady rate though not at Everton. It zoomed in the 90's on the way to the 43% of all PL players that we see today.

Cliff Marshall, born in Sefton and raised in Toxteth I think, was the first player with two black parents to play for us in the first of just eight games in January 1975, although his name did not appear in the matchday programme. His accounts towards the end of his life of racism in and around footy in the 1970s are harrowing.

Not a single black player played for us in seasons ending 1977/1994. Remember Dion Dublin whose “imminent” transfer to us was blocked by a board member at the last minute?

But the loud and long chants of "Everton are White", the “song” to the tune of “Brown Girl ln the Ring”, and “N …. N …. N …. oi oi oi” all but disappeared. I suspect, Si, that you never heard them. If memory serves, they disappeared a couple of years before we won the cup in 1984. Yet it would not be until September 10, 1994, that Dan Amokachi first ran onto the Old Lady’s pitch.

There were always knobheads and there are always “incidents” as Si and Danny point, and Goodison derbies where Barnes got a shit load of abuse. But the days of “N …. N …. N …. oi oi oi” as something “sung” in many pockets of the ground had long gone.

I’d be really interested to see if I need to be corrected on my thoughts and memories and whether there are others who also feel that the very worst days of this were behind us before we walked down Howard’s Way.

I remember there still being a vocal minority up to the end of the '80s, Paul. John Barnes signing for them (and being so good), allied to the post-Heysel ill-feeling, seemed to whip it up?

There were bananas thrown on the pitch and there were chants from Everton fans. It's less reported that there was still a number of RS fans who also threw bananas.

I remember arguing on the 60 bus with a red from school who intended to boo John Barnes and throw bananas at him. He was quite proud in school on the Monday that he had done so. Prick.

“The Kop would have slaughtered me with racial abuse if I had faltered on the field. If I had been playing for Everton, and doing well, their fans would not have been throwing bananas and spitting at me. Liverpool's would.”

John Barnes's autobiography.

Oh for sure Liam. Totally agree. But I do think that after Heysel the real hate was aimed at the club and fans. I think that it's no accident that the first serious large-scale fighting I ever saw was in the (Feb?) 1986 2-0 derby where I was part of a large Everton group on the right side of the Kop as you look at it.

But you're right, Liam, we have our morons and Barnes was treated shockingly by a minority who could just as easily have been pounced on by the sort of people who turned on the scum next to Si.

Anyone remember those grinning post-pubescents singing their Moyes paedophile "song" at Villa away?

Wow, Liam. That is genuinely revealing and shocking.

I was in the away end at that 86 derby and you could see the fighting on the kop from there, Paul.

For our generation who saw both pre- and post-Heysel, it's difficult to completely convey the seismic effect it had.

Absolutely Liam. I did hate them before Heysel but before that after derbies, even after the Rush derby, we would meet our lovable red mates in the Prince of Wales on Stanley Road.

Then there was the year of the Blackstuff Merseyside finals. But Heysel changed everything, not just the killing but the way those twats gloated at us when we were kicked out of Europe.

Everton kicked off in the Kop when there was one of those songs too many and it was nasty after our second after the clown fucked up.

Growing up in Dingle/Toxteth there was still geographical segregation of that part of the city based on race back then. More so than any other part. Dingle, esp round Park Road area was mostly white, Toxteth esp round Princes Road/Granby Street was mostly black.

There were regular flare ups and you definitely wouldn't go into the wrong area. It doesn't take a genius to make the connection between geographic segregation and racism.

That's how I remember Toxteth, Liam, even though I would be mostly passing through Princes Road on a bus into town.

My best mate, whose family moved out; spent his early life in Toxteth. It was out towards and just off Smithdown Road. Which, I believe is an invisible boundary. One side L8, across the road L15 (Wavertree). His mum cleaned in a Snooker Club nearby and used to let us in to play pool.

The small things in life!!

Liam@174. The RS shite gave Barnes abuse away at Arsenal

Yes, Jeff. It's also been airbrushed a lot the amount of hate mail he got from his own fans. As has the graffiti which greeted his arrival at Mordor (which I won't repeat).

To be fair to John Barnes he has been quite open about it himself.

Not trying to make excuses for Everton fans but, as with all these type of things, there's a lot of subtlety and nuance that gets lost.

Alan 138,

A bit the wrong way around, I think you'll find. Rangers were founded first and completely non sectarian at that time. Unfortunately I have to say that Hibs then have a lot to do what happened next.

Hibs sent a few committee members over to Glasgow to speak with the local Irish community and priests to persuade them to follow Hibernian's lead of giving the Glasgow Irish mob a football team.

Celtic were the result and slowly those Catholic Rangers supporters headed over to the Celtic side and the sectarianism started.

In fact, one of the first, if not the first games Celtic played against Rangers resulted in a Celtic win with the Celtic team consisting of many Hibs “guest” players.

Hibs did exactly the same in Dundee and Dundee Hibernian, now Dundee United was born. Hibs then tried it on up in Aberdeen but were chased out of the city!!

Yes, Hibs have a lot to answer for!

I did not know any of that, John (183). Thanks for educating me.

I knew a Rangers fan back in the day who always said to me that he hated Hibs more than Celtic. I see why now. I'm going to have a right go at Pat Nevin next time I see him.

John 183

To echo Paul, I didn't know that either. As an Irish Catholic myself, my retort to Republican Celtic/Hibs fans today is “If you hate Britain so much, go back to Ireland,” but I guess in 1875 it was all the same thing.

But one thing that seems to pass over many of these people's heads is that many of the Irish republican leaders pre independence were Protestants.

I just wonder back in 1875 as now how many of these die-hard Hibs, Celtic, Rangers and Hearts fans with their sectarian sensibilities can be found regularly attending Mass or service on Sundays. And how many know the liturgical differences between the two?

Just seems to me like people finding an excuse to cause trouble.

John, fascinating stuff. Happy to be corrected. I'd no idea about the role that Hibs played in all this. I'd always believed that Celtic were formed before the 'Gers.

But that was probably due to knocking around with some Bhoys whilst at University. Would love to read more about this.

Kiran... likewise, I wonder how many of these players who make the sign of the cross whenever they win a bloody throw in actually go to church?

I hope you don't Mark.

A lot of your "wool stuff" is funny and done without a trace of anger
Its also reasonable for you to be more sensitive than me. Your accent may occasionally draw a comment from one of the handful of Morons who follow us around. Mine will simply go unnoticed.

John #183 Celtic & Hibs were set up primarily to help alleviate poverty by raising funds for the impoverished immigrants in the east end of Glasgow and the Cowgate area of Edinburgh. The government of the day certainly weren't going to help them. I don't think "Glasgow Irish mob" is the best description for these poor people.

Kieran @185 & Alan @187,

It's funny you mention Celtic “Catholic” players. I remember Tommy Burns the Celtic player and very practising Catholic, having a right go at his Celtic teammates after a particularly nasty Old Firm game.

Before, during and after the game, Celtic players were inciting the Rangers support – though let's be honest, their players were as bad – by crossing themselves at every opportunity.

Burns came out after slamming his teammates stating half weren't even Catholic and those who were hadn't been to church since they'd been baptised!

Regarding the Hibs fans of today
I spend my time travelling between Liverpool and Edinburgh depending on home gamed.
If Everton are away I'm at Easter Road and vice versa. The other week I was at the United game and missed Hibs at home v Celtic because I hate hearing yhe shite from Celtic supporters.
Last Saturday was easy. Hibs were away and we played West Ham so I'm at Goodison
I'm Catholic, my son-in-law Protestant but a mad Hibbee season ticket holder all his life. So many Protestant Hibbees in the actual Hibs Club.
Personally I cannot remember the last time I saw an Irish tricolour at a home game, if there were it must only been one so really unnoticeable
Hibs are looked at as the Catholic team, however, the support is very different from Celtic religion wise hence the lack of religious nonsense chanting and singing

There use to be a time when you went to the match to enjoy the sanctuary of 90 minutes away from all the worlds ills. Not anymore.

Eugene,

My use of the word 'mob' is certainly not as you imply it

'Mob' in my speech is more like 'crowd'. I use it when I speak, for example, to someone about my family.

“Meeting my mob tomorrow for a piss up.” “Good support by our mob yesterday at Brighton.”

Always found it used in these contexts by a lot of scousers. Apologies if it upset you.

I've never been to Hibs but I love this clip from when they won the Scottish Cup. My Scottish football experience was a Celtic v Everton pre-season friendly sometime in the 80s and walking into Dundee's ground and around the pitch as there was a gap between stands in the corner and no-one was around. I was up there for a wedding.

Link

I can only spot one tricolour in the crowd. I think the Hibs keeper has one tied around his neck.

But you see the odd one or two draped at Goodison. They could just be Irish supporters, like ours.

Nothing like Celtic and Rangers, who turn it into an atmosphere based on Northern Ireland sectarianism. Id take a punt on most of them not having an understanding of what they're singing about.

Look out for our own Alan Stubbs and a young John McGinn. I would have liked to see him at Everton.

You don't even see as much of that in the North anymore, they've moved on. But I'd have to leave that to our Irish cohort.

Fazackerly Colin, Fazackerly!
I’m also a little bit loud and assertive with my arguments, truth be told, especially when I’ve had a few. The worst time recently though was at West Ham 2 seasons ago when I actually agreed with a drunken scouser that we had played shite and then added that we had been shite all season. As soon as he heard my accent it was the old “what’s it to do with you, go and support United etc” I tried reasoning with him but he started shouting “your a fuckin disgrace you, a fuckin disgrace…”and attracted the attention of a “mob” ;) boarding the Happy Als coach, who surrounded me asking who the Fcuk I thought I was without knowing what had actually happened. It was only the intervention of a rather large black guy, I think he may have been off duty police, who ushered me away that avoided a good kicking for me, simply because of my accent and a drunk getting all arsey with me.
That’s the worst occasion but there have been others before and since. I have quite often considered jacking it in after times like that but good scousers like Danny, Rob Halligan, Dave and Tony and others that I communicate with on here (I don’t have their phone details to converse in private, btw) keep me going. I mentioned away games as I don’t get shit at the few home games I can get to these days.
Funny story about that West Ham game above.
I took my youngest son, Billy 23, who was born down here and has a posh Home Counties accent. He came back from the concourse at half time dead chuffed as the scousers had heard his accent and thought it was brilliant that he was a blue with a posh accent like his! He lives in Toxteth now, he’s at JMU, and lives Liverpool so much he’s planning on living there when he graduates.
I envy you getting to the home games btw I wish I could.
UTFT

John # 192 it is fine. No offence taken.

JK - Are Hearts fans equally as accepting of both sides?

Paul (172),

Are you sure Dion Dublin's transfer to Everton was blocked at the last minute by a Board member?

Howard Kendall always maintained that the reason he never came was because Everton wouldn't give him the money to buy him.

Mark,

Obviously I'm biased but Hearts are possibly a bit more biased, however, saying that it is a bit more like Everton and Liverpool in that families are split as is school mates.

Unfortunately like our derbies segregation has increased shite at the games. Fortunately next day we're all mates in the pub!

Danny @193,

It was same same the other week after beating Hearts in the derby. Sunshine on Leith was belted out with the team shoulder to shoulder facing the “Terracing” – where my and all the families season tickets are. It's also on YouTube.

I reckon it's the best footy song going, head and shoulders above that dirge from across the Park!

John... couldn't agree more. It'd bring a rear to a glass eye. Must say after a visit a year or two ago, Leith... it's not exactly Rimini is it. 😉

And no mentions of coppers nor candles either I'll bet, John!

I think it's great John.

I always liked Fields of Athenry, going back to when I was a kid listening to my parents' ritual of playing Irish or Country and Western on a Sunday Morning.

I would have like us to adopt that, but then they went and ruined it with their adaptation of Fields of Anfield Road, which they've now blocked off with that new loft conversion.

Alan,
That's the charm of the place! I've been up there from mid-70s and everyone knows everyone. Very clannish. First holiday with the missus someone asked where we were from. As usual, I said Everton but live in Edinburgh. The missus was straight in. "He's from Everton but we're fae Leith!!"

They've ruined the place with all these shite wine bars and fancy ale pubs. It used to be a bit like Great Homer Street, Scottie and Dock Road, pubs every corner.

I always say they filmed all the Star Trek movies there with all the locals used as extras for Klingons and other aliens. Saved the producers a fortune not having to pay for make up and special effects. Wife included by the way!

What's this got to do with Everton? Or is TW going all click-bait now? Is this just to become a general football site?

I see another story on here about Man City and Man Utd academies... is there any suggestion of anything at Everton or impacting an Everton player? Not that I can see...

Sunshine on Leith, takes some beating especially in the sunshine, with all those green and white scarfs.

I remember this Evertonian singing The Fields of Goodison Park, one night Danny, and I asked him why would he sing this song after it's been adopted by Liverpudlians?

Those red bastards in Ned Kelly's robbed that song off me, he said "I was singing it well before those thieving fuckers!"

He told me he followed Ireland, and he'd had his own version of the song for years, and was fuming when they robbed it.

Kendall, Harvey and Ball…
And Dixie — The Greatest of them All

But I suppose it's been lonely around Goodison Park since Boxing Day 1999.

Tony #205.

Funnily enough I've only recently come across that song. I have to say it's a cracker. Can't stop playing it.

Better than Mr Blue Sky PH (206)

Andrew Taylor (204): Why would you mention Everton on a thread whose OP has nothing to do with Everton?

Dave A (197): Thanks for that Dave and I might well have been misinformed mate. The information came from a GOT article that I thought I bookmarked, but no. I tried to look it up with no luck but I did find a GOT article on "Dion Dublin - Worst ever pundit?"

https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/dion-dublin-worst-ever-pundit.26302/

It could still be the case Dave that the board or enough of them blocked the transfer by not giving Howard the money.

By the way, Dave, there's an excellent new book just out on post-war Liverpool but with a real focus on the 1980s.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Liverpool-Unmaking-Britain-Sam-Wetherell/dp/1801108889

Deep breath, you or anyone will not like the opening sentence of the blurb: "Few cities in the world are as famous as Liverpool, the home of the modern world's most celebrated rock group and of a legendary football team".

Despite that it is a lovely book.

John K (192): I am really enjoying your posts on here - Leith and Liverpool is not a bad life.

I've always felt that "mob" is on the derogatory side of life, although I get your point about family etc. or even the "Hounslow mob" who used to follow Pauline Murray and Penetration (a band!) all over the land.

The first recorded uses of "mob" are in the late seventeenth century when it was very deliberately used in a very derogatory way to stigmatise and categorise protests by people who would later be called the “working class”.

Found it, Dave A:

https://www.grandoldteam.com/2020/06/08/everton-are-white-everton-racism-and-the-era-of-change/

A couple of years ago I attended anti-extremism training as part of work. It was external presenters and one of the themes was terrorism is not just Muslim etc (which is fair enough).

They began to show video examples of online idiots voicing right wing, particularly vile and nasty Nazi type views. The first video was a scouse lad. We then had a discussion.

The second video was another scouse lad. This time he had a mask on and the vileness he was spewing was beyond anything I've ever heard, racial mutilating and murdering etc. He also had an Everton top on.

We were then supposed to have a discussion and I was the first to speak and I pulled the presenters about the fact their examples could lead to prejudice in themselves. I in no way wanted to undermine the toxicity on show, just to point out a bit of a theme.

I live in Yorkshire and am used to the normal Scouse stereotypes 'mind your wallet', all that nonsense. But this I found quite dangerous. In fact, during the videos, everyone in the room was looking at me.

The woman presenters ended up agreeing that her examples were quite damming to scousers, but not before she said 'well we just got them randomly online'

I was unsure whether to say anything about it – I didn't want to affect the seriousness of the subject. In the end, I just had to as it was something that I found offensive. I had no doubt that it was unintentional, but just showed to me how easily things can be misinterpreted and prejudices reinforced.

PF, you know it's not.:)

Liam,

Outside of football I don't think there's a more inclusive or cosmopolitan city in the world than Liverpool.

In my honest opinion.

And in my experience.

It's only at the game I experience otherwise.

Toronto Mark.