Two chances for Beto... two chances for Haaland; No contest

That makes no sense.

This isn't City of the last 4-5 years and we go above them with a win…

Come on, blue boys!!! (Or whatever colour we wear today)… 0-2 Everton win. Beto and Ndiaye

For fuck's sake, he's not a winger. And 2 goalkeepers on bench... 3-0 home win.

Come on, Jake -- put him in your pocket!

I trust the fella who has managed the 3rd most games in Premier League history over a few ToffeeWebers. Just saying like...

LOL

All great managers the ToffeeWebbers
Its a funny thing

However, it all looks a lot better than last season, with more than a couple of good options on the bench.

Where's Charly playing and what's the score?

If he plays on the wing, it's a waste of a good player.

We will probably have 20% possession, when we have it put it into the box, anything can happen.

Not much of a plan I know, but we will not get anything playing them at their own game.

Crazy things are happening almost daily so we all should live in hope that the result we crave coalesces out of the chaos.
We got a result against Palace that not many expected so we can do it again.

The formula is simple. Shackle and frustrate them and make the most of our opportunities.

Have to hope the international players we have who have not had a break are buoyed by their continued relative success and really up for this challenge. Let's see how their defenders deal with the dancing Ndiaye.

Come on you (‘Royal') Blues!

But I have just put money on us to win.

COYB & UTFT

A double negative forms a positive. In some languages, such as Russian, a double negative is still a negative. However, in no language in the world can a double positive form a negative.

What do you mean, “Yeah, right!"😁

They don't start Bernardo Silva which is good and Rodri is injured but their replacements are top notch.

Anything can happen in any game but Everton need to be firm all over, especially in the first half when they always look shabby.

They will miss the outlet and ball carrier in Jack.

Get Gabriel Jesus in January and we are laughing!

Beto's left foot. Jeez. Two open goals in a week if he could use it.

I can't think when I've last seen one of our players go away to a top side and play as if they believe they're the best player on the pitch. He's incredible.

Dewsbury-Hall playing well, Alcaraz struggling out of position. Decent 45 minutes for the neutrals even though it's 0-0.

So far so good but what a pity that Beto didn't put that chance away on the 13-minute mark.

Worth a punt in January if he's still struggling at Forest? He's a proper Number 9.

Alcaraz is not a winger.

Subs might win this game, hope it's an Everton one.

He started brightly, making some nice runs towards their box. Granted he was less involved as City upped the ante and we were camped in our own half. He might get that Ireland call-up soon!

Enjoy him while you can.

But, as a lifelong player, coach and supporter, I've got no idea what the handball rule is nowadays.

The Premier League makes a lot of money every time Haaland, Salah etc score goals. That includes penalties… lots of jersey sales, google searches, links clicked (advertising companies get paid) etc etc etc.

Can't complain too much.

Yeah, with what we have, we put up a decent effort, but they just have much more quality.

Admittedly we need to find something more in our own attack which seemed lesser when Alcaraz went off, but they didn't make a complete show of us.

2-nil is not a bad result against City. 👍

£25M? And the rest... he's the best forward we've got.

Similarly, Garner was fouled in an almost identical manner for which he got a yellow card but nothing against the City player.

Beto has had his purple patch now and he's never once looked the answer to what we need.

Barry doesn't look anywhere near the style of player for this league. He's meek, lightweight and doesn't look like he has much running or work ethic in him, I can't see him working out at all.

Why persist with dross? Sell both and replace them.

The most dangerous striker in the league stood on his own in our box on both occasions while neither of our centre-backs were within 10 yards of him and neither marking a soul?

Mind you, anybody on here reckon Beto would've finished either of those chances? Oh to have a striker...🙄

I find this frustrating. He tried hard but was less effective. Square pegs, round holes etc.

At the moment, £100M pissed down the drain. Shocking business. Scouts want sacking. Most people can do a better job than them clowns.

Spurs and Sunderland next up... 1 loss, 1 draw. We move on. A mid-table finish is my prediction. Not good enough.. .

Barry looks better as a substitute and I see a player there who will come good once he plays more as the season goes on.

Merlin Röhl and Tim Iroegbunam played well together and got some good tackles in. We are 2 full-backs and a good striker away from competing with the best of the rest.

2 out of at least 5 good chances to my eye.

Beto missed 1 that he did well to get anything on. It was gutting his desperate lunge didn't get enough on it though.

The second one he beat Donarumma and the far post, not easy to slot past that keeper on the angle. Had he succeeded, it was no goal as flagged for offside (though maybe we would have had a chance to overturn on VAR as it was super tight).

Not our day. I thought we fought hard but their class shone through, sadly. Sad truth is it could have been an embarrassing scoreline had their lads had their shooting boots on.

Not seen the xG though. Let's hope with Jack and Jarrad back we do a number on Spurs. UTFT.

Probably do a better job the the 2 importers we have at the club at the moment. Niasse was world class compared to them donkeys.

Haaland on both occasions feigned his run, stepped back and created his own space as our centre-backs followed his initial move.

Great striker's play imo.

But in the recent past we would have capitulated and probably ended up conceding a few late goals. We didn't. We kept our shape and discipline.

But our shape minus Grealish was askew and with full-backs offering nothing going forward plus a useless striker it was a matter of scoring off a set piece or Ndiaye doing a Maradona run.

In the words of Moshiri: “an expected loss,” and one I personally can't argue that, if we'd done this, that or the next thing differently, we could have won.

One of the most promising performances this season despite the result and the first 60 or so minutes should give us confidence going forward.

This was a very different game to the 2-0 scoreline under Ancelotti.

Good effort all round.

Haaland has 23 goals in 13 games for club and country this season. Did anybody really expect Tarkowski and Keane to shut him down for 90 minutes?

Yet they manage to spot Beto and Barry and the litany of other trash recruitment deemed worthy to wear the shirt. It shows... still shows Everton recruitment never has been and is still not fit for purpose. The huge amount wasted on crud for at least four decades is criminal.

Bereft of striking options for that long, and an incapability for any manager to play to the lone striker's strength (possibly Ancelotti excluded), we haven't a hope in hell.

I do not trust those responsible for player recruitment to remedy their huge blunders. With the vast amount of money agents receive from transfer fees and then the players as clients, one has to question corruption as a possible motive.

I am trying to think of another Premier League regular that always puts vast amounts of millions into dreadful players, year-in & year-out, and I can't think of any, other than us. I do not include yo-yo teams or those who lasted a season or two.

Everton's academy is equally turgid. Something has to change monumentally for this club to become a feature.

Harland needs 5 clear cut chances to score 2, Beto will be lucky to get 5 chances over 3 games.

This City team let you play and allowed us a bit more time on the ball. We kept the ball quite well but lack that bit of quality.

On another day, we get a penalty to level the game... and then who knows?

I thought Röhl looked decent when he came on.

Both centre-backs were ball-watching for both Haaland goals but the first was down to a mistake by Ndiaye who let the City player run behind him to cross to the only City player in the box.

I thought the gulf in class was obvious and we did well to keep it to two.

Röhl and Iroegbunam seemed to do well but City had eased up by then so it's difficult to judge.

It was a penalty, he was reckless throwing himself in front of the ball and had his arm out.

He said if Haaland was playing for Everton and Beto for City, we would have won.

I don't think we are going to see another transfer window like Roberto's Barry and Lukaku one while I'm still alive.

Hopefully a right-back in January to start the process.

Pleased for Röhl.

It's going to be a long road back.

I remain of the view that we need to at least try Ndiaye as a striker. He can do that role and he would hardly be less effective than our current duo.

People say 'sell them' but who would pay much for them? They really aren't likely to fetch more than single millions, the way they are playing.

He'd be a better choice than that useless excuse for a footballer, Beto.

But I'm glad we didn't pay £65 million for him as Arsenal did for Göykeres.

And don't mention the two goalies on the bench... I'll never work that one out.

Never change, Moyes.

I don't buy the claim we had a good transfer window or have a good squad full of great options.

Just saying like!

They'll need to get creative and start using data sets available to them and perform a variation of scenarios/modelling to determine the profile of players they bring, similar to what the likes of Brighton and Bournemouth do.

Identifying that striker(s) should be the priority next summer. Let's hope they are all joined up and in agreement, there are players out there. These people will now really need to start earning there money.

I expect next summer to be a second wave in the recruitment drive. We need another five or six players in.

I couldn't have summed that up better, we are a club famous for our Number 9s... They're just shit though... and it is down to poor homework.

We knew we had a problem up front but have closed our eyes and hoped for the best. These two strikers we have now are amongst the worst l have ever witnessed in the Premier League -- and we have them both!

Maybe, as others have said, the Championship is worth a look.

Ladies and gentlemen, at a cost of multi £millions, I present Messrs Beto and Barry. Shame on all who scouted you!

They didn't see much of Angell and Madar obviously!

That scoreline was as predictable as playing Alcaraz wide left. Never mind the proper wide players in the squad.

Also, Beto's 2nd missed chance was offside, so wouldn't have counted.

So, instead of interchanging their inadequacies during games, I would like the manager to try something different. Anything really. Just something.

That's given every day of the week for everyone in the Big 6 -- and certainly given against Everton if that's us handling in the box vs Man City.

I'm just tired of the officiating in this league. Tired of it all.

He was a fraction away from converting Ndiaye's ball across the 6-yard box because he made the right move to be there. You could equally say Ndiaye put a yard too much pace on the ball or played it half a yard too far forwards.

Intent absolutely does matter in handball but you are allowed to try to block shots. I agree with the officials that the arm was in a natural position and the shot is close range and just happens to hit it. Not a penalty the way things are supposed to be judged at this point in time. It will be a travesty if we see it given in another game.

Tarkowski's one was different in that he very deliberately moved his torso (and the arm connected to it) to try to block the shot, whereas it's the trailing part of the body that gets hit today.

I still think that was a harsh judgement to give the penalty because he clearly tried to keep his arm tucked out of the way and where it struck him on the upper arm has been judged not to be handball in recent times.

The very good Haaland gets two chances on a plate with nobody near him. I could've scored that header even now, (though that may be a symptom of retired players 'The older I get, the better I was' syndrome)

The bang average Beto gets 2 harder chances and, no surprise, can't score them.

Collectively, Man City were just better than us, not much you can do about that in the short term.

Ours is Home Bargains.

Some you get, some you don't, we are definitely in the 'don't' category.

On the handball, in injury time a similar incident happened when we were attacking and a free kick was given against Garner for handball outside the box. It was like the non-penalty what we used to call “ball to hand” at point blank range with his arm being where your arm tends to hang.

Logically, if that was “foul play”, so was the non-penalty. But with that being said, as a fan, and crappy player of the lowest level, to me, ball to hand should not be given as a handball. The problem is, every year PGMOL seem to tweak what is and what isn't “handball” so no one knows.

Remember a few years back at Brighton one was called on Keane when basically any arm or hand contact, regardless of position or context, was being called. Then, not long after that, they decided to relax the rules again a bit. But we've all seen ones like today's called.

I think it should not be a penalty but I also wish they'd stop reinterpreting the rules and just be consistent.

Piss poor defending from Tarkowski and Keane for those two goals. Nowhere near Haaland. He's the fucking danger man, just mark him.

He's showing his quality by being able to get into those positions. If he was as truly bad as some people think, it would be like watching Maupay, he wouldn't even be able to get into the penalty area.

And he's missing these chances by inches, it's not as if he's falling over and skying it into Row Z. And we were playing the prospective champions on their own patch.

"Doesn't matter. He's shit!" ... and who are we? A team that's been fucking dreadful for 10 years. We need a serious reality check.

Apparently the Premier League and the Champions League are all just chock full of piss poor defenders.

Re the penalty, it wasn't. Among the other factors previously mentioned, one not mentioned is that the ball glanced off his body first.

I've seen legendary Everton strikers, backed by way better players, miss way clearer chances than his at the club allowed by the entire world to literally get away with murder, corruption, and ridicule of any vestige of integrity when it comes to the Premier League.

Bent as fuck? Yeah, for decades.

A competition without any credibility with regard to fairness as some weird people.... Erm, what do you call them, Mr Masters?..... oh, yes, paying fans, how could I forget?!" contend.

Always and forever is the answer, until they too are treated as they've treated nearly all of us fans for far too long.

To me it can't come soon enough.

I remember Hibbert and Neville having Bale, Kane and Ronaldo in their pockets back in the day.

I believe your memories of Hibbo and Pip having Kane in their pockets are wishful dreams, because according to Transfermarkt and StatMuse, Kane scored 16 goals in 17 appearances against Everton.

And neither Kane nor the other players you mentioned compare to Haaland. Did you know he's the only Premier League player ever to average more than a goal a game? Nobody else even close. The previous best was Thierry Henry at 0.68 goals per game.

Who else would you put in place of the 2nd goalie given that Aznou and Coleman were also on the bench? Patterson? One of the U21s from the team that lost 5-1 to Bradford City?

They are surely going to be better than any one of the 5 he did bring on and I am sure would have turned the game around and given us a 3-2 victory.

Can we stop making stupid statements about the number of goalies on the bench because it is irrelevant with 5 from 9.

You don't think that one of the central defenders could do what Haaland did for the header, which was to see where the defenders were positioned? It wasn't as though they had several options to cover as he was the only City player anywhere near.

If Haaland had taken up the position Keane did, then there is no way he would have scored -- and where Keane was covering should be the keepers in the absence of any forward.

Similarly, nobody picked him up in our penalty area for the second goal and, as you say, his record seems to indicate that he should get special attention... or do you think nobody mentioned the fact?

When the cross went in, there was only one danger. Surely they can see that.

Zonal defending has replaced brains. Central defending used to be one marked and the other swept up behind. It baffles me that both felt the need to run back plus Mykolenko, when there's only one striker on the pitch. It was hardly the Alamo.

I thought it was poor, preventable goals coughed up, by two lads from a bit of movement. If that's their level, you can forget playing in Europe.

We send young players out on loan to get experience. Do you not think a place on the bench -- even if you don't intend to use him -- might add to a young player's experience rather than a couple of aging keepers, or even young George Pickford as the second one?

- lack of width
- lack of pace on the flanks
- lack of pace at centre-back

We are unusually slow and narrow. We are the stand out Premier League club in this respect.

These three things combine to force the team back, isolate the striker, and make it difficult to counter-attack. It has been the same thing for years.

It is no coincidence that the few seasons of Premier League football when the strikers did score goals coincided with a higher line that had pace and width.

Until these three things are fixed our strikers will have lousy goal tallies.

Mike (93), You are entitled to your version of the penalty but I think a lot of us would have been interested in the VAR's opinion -- did they give one? If they didn't, I think we were entitled to one.

At least he brought them on, though; if Everton are going to improve, then we need to be more consistent and not just rely on 13 or 14 players.

I don't think it was a penalty but I have seen them given (to certain teams) -- and I'm sure I will see them given again before the year is out.

It's this type of inconsistency (the best word to use when trying to avoid controversy!) that suddenly means I can take it or leave it with regards to watching top-level football nowadays. For anyone who has ever known me, this is not something many of them could have ever predicted because I have always been football mad.

Football crazy, football mad -- but now, when I watch a lot of football, it just makes me feel sad!!

Not bad for a Sunday morning; I'm just trying to bring a little bit of light-hearted jest into a game we were always destined to lose!

Hes got 24 goals already this season so it’s not just Everton defenders who struggle against him.

Perhaps, just perhaps he’s too good to keep him out

We have the most batshit crazy fans in the premier league

I can’t wait for Moyes to leave and for you cranks to turn on whoever replaces him.

Can we stop making stupid statements about the number of goalies on the bench because it is irrelevant with 5 from 9.

Not sure I agree with that view. Moyes has made a huge issue of his players not being ready to play in the Premier League, so he doesn't play them. Or he brings them off the bench with barely minutes left in the game, which must be a real slap in the face for any player craving meaningful minutes on the pitch -- they just don't get enough time to do anything.

Yes, it potentially disrupts Moyes's fixed formation and risks conceding more goals, giving us a worse goal difference. So there's a trade-off.

But, if you are going to make sensible use of the 5 from 9 sub allowance, then surely you improve your options as a manager and you opportunities for players to get time on the field, by going with only one goalkeeper? Two goalkeepers means one less outfield player to choose from.

By your logic, let's put four goalkeepers on the bench. After all, the manager can only play 5 from 9, so what's the point of having more than 5 outfield players on the bench?

I think O'Brien did when still 0-0. Haarland's sheer presence forced our deference to head one onto the bar. Our bar!!

There's a reason Haarland has scored 20+ goals already this season and it isn't down to poor marking.

Within a game you may need a goal or two so you take off defenders leaving yourself exposed. After getting the goal you may need to shut up or have to counteract what the other manager has done with his 5 subs.

Having 2 goalies is ridiculous as the chances of 2 goalies getting injured or sent off is remote and most teams will have an outfield player or two who fancies themselves as a goalie in any eventuality.

Limiting your options when the opposition like City will maximise theirs is like ceding a minor advantage to the opposition who already have enough advantages with the talent pool available to them.

With the modern game allowing 5 subs and top clubs managers' now stressing the importance of finishers makes it much more important now to have as much choice as possible. The idea of token subs is a thing of the past.

For example Arsenal have won so many games from the bench this season especially through Matinelli. Arteta has the choice of starting Trossard there. If he needs skill he can chose Eze, if he needs quality and a killer goal from nothing he can go with Ranieri, if he he needs to get in behind he closes Matinelli. These players can also play either as tens, right wingers or false nines.

It may be 6th tier but it’s a very tough, physical level of football, and should benefit these two young lads.

We have been badly run since Penfold Moshri took over. Employing Allardyce and matey from across the park both have been bad calls.
We rolled over when Masters and his crew threw PSR at us Citteh are still fighting them.

He has helped build a wnderful new stadum though. We are stll in top flight and alas it will take time to turn this club around under new owners.

But please bear in mind Citteh have spent -£2 billion and we received a points decuction for going over £130 million in debt whist building a new stadium.
But yeah we should hve bought a top drawer forward and new fullbacks and a proper midfiielder

The use of two goalkeepers on the bench is not one of them. It simply doesn’t matter.

Meanwhile, one of our academy players has just gone on loan to *checks notes*….. Marine!

If goalkeeper Fraser Barnsley can get a full season under his belt at Marine, he will learn a lot. I believe he was dealing very well yesterday with corners and crosses against big opponents, and made some excellent saves.

Samuels-Smith's loan is only until 12 November.

If he makes it, great; if he doesn't and gets a couple of Premier League appearances, surely that increases his value vs a keeper that will be released on a free.

All of us who had seen Alcaraz in our last game were keen that he should play yesterday... but as a left-winger? I think he should have started, but inside as the attacking midfielder he is.

Dewsbury-Hall could have been given the Grealish position, or it be covered by the two wingers we had on the bench.

Somebody will tell me that Dewsbury-Hall is not a winger either, but then neither was Jack Grealish, and Kiernan is the nearest type of player we have to him.

Finally, our two centre-backs do seem to have got off lightly, as neither were anywhere near Harland when he scored his goals, most criticism seems to have centred on Beto which is perhaps a little unfair.

Especially when they play in positions where we are sadly lacking.

Unfortunately strikers are like gold dust and, with good ones costing £60M+ these days, then, if you can buy them, do they want to join somebody like us? No, they want Champions League.

But we have to find some answers soon as chopping and changing up front between Bill and Ben is costing us. Both of them are not Premier League class; one tries but is not good enough; the other looks lost and a Championship player at best. A total waste of money; I don't care how long he's been here. Barry is an expensive Sandro Ramirez.

What's the answer? God knows... but until we can scout a good unknown or persuade someone like Olly Watkins, Ivan Toney, Mitrovic... or for Wolves to sell before end of season Sander, we have little or no options.

For what it's worth, I'd play a false 9 like Charly and Ndiaye in his best position at Number 10. It's got to be worth a try... anything but Bill and Ben. But I won't hold my breath.

I would have thought standards are going to have to get much, much higher for someone to merit a place on our first team bench.

The U18s played yesterday, and presumably it's better to actually play than sit on the bench to watch a match.

But I see a few posters have said those words for me.

COYB.

We were well in that game, against a much superior team, and undone by the fact they could deploy the best finisher in world football, and the fact that our strikers won their contracts in Corn Flakes packs.

I believe the answer is that he operates (as he did at wolves) as something along the lines of a goalkeeping coach.

Either way though, I very strongly believe this business of 2 goalkeepers on the bench has absolutely no bearing on the outcome of matches or the career trajectory of our academy players. As per the earlier post, it just doesn't matter.

The other could make it or go for a decent fee, with 5-10 epl appearances?

Id have thought blooding Graham on the bench would make more sense from a footballing and financial point of view. Put king with the coaches.

We should have done early business on Woltemade. The fee ended up being big with Newcastle but I said as early as May on this website that he should be our man.

The money wasted on Anzou, Barry and Dibling could’ve been spent on him. He’s come in and took to Premier League Football splendidly.

Moyes has illustrated once more that he cannot spend big money well. He never has. I’m also of the opinion that he cannot judge any player that does not have some kind of existing pedigree in British football.

Why on earth has he spent such huge money on players that at best, are simply not ready for premier league football Yet. Or worse still and more likely, will never be ready for premier league football.

If he’s to go for a decent fee it will be by scoring more goals, not sitting on a bench.

Steve #126, if we do "scout a good unknown" how long will you give for him to prove himself? Or will you give up on him after 200 league minutes as you have Barry?

Tommy #134, your "should have" is the most outlandish I've seen. What in the world makes you think we had the wherewithal to spend £70 million on a striker? And that Woltemade would have come to us instead of playing Champions League with the Barcodes? Sorry, but I think that's as ridiculous as your instant judgement that Barry, Dibling and Aznou will never be Prem players.

Does having 8 outfield players on the bench give the manager more options than 7 in the event of injury or tactical changes?

Does having 8 outfield players on the bench give the manager more options than 7 for youngsters and fringe players to be given match playing time, if circumstances allow?

If neither of these things are in the broader interests of the team and squad progress, please explain why?

Grealish will be back for Spurs and Jarrad is still to come back and Patterson as well. So take the opportunity to include the kids, there is no downside.

All chances that he's not good enough for us. But a Championship team might look at him in the Premier League, and choose to pay £X as they've a benchmark in real football.

Did the value of Simms and Cannon increase from Premier League football? Of course it did. Perhaps by a factor of 10-20.

The two strikers touted for a spot on the bench are currently 45th and 50th in the U21 league top scorers chart. And as I said earlier, this is a standard of football lower than the top echelons of non-league.

So no, it seems unlikely that they would offer us some genuine tactical etc option - because they are not going to play. And because they're not going to play, they don't get the experience of first-team minutes.

As per comments throughout, the use of 2 GKs on the bench therefore has absolutely no impact whatsoever on the outcome of the match or the career trajectories of academy players or the price tag of academy players.

For example, I am pretty sure Callum Bates made up the numbers on the bench a few times last season (possibly alongside a couple of goalkeepers?). This has not made him a sought-after commodity for loan or purchase, not led to any England youth etc recognition and not given him any first team minutes.

It all seems to point very strongly in the direction of not mattering whatsoever.

Tom Cannon played 4 times, 33 minutes for Everton and never scored. His price tag was entirely dictated by his performance on loan for Stoke and Preston.

Ellis Simms played 12 times for Everton (but only after completing 3 loans). He scored once. Again, it was essentially his performances on loan at Blackpool, Hearts and Sunderland that drove the price.

Significantly, Cannon and Simms earned the loans that made them through strong performance at U18 and U21 level. That's exactly what Graham and Benjamin need to do -- just as Sherif is doing now.

Braiden Graham was playing in a man's league at 15 years of age; that's how he got to Everton and it wasn't long before he was training with the first team. You've seen the Academy teams — they are not very good. It doesn't mean every player isn't very good.

One of these days, Everton are going to be leading 2- or 3-nil, like against Wolves and Leicester last season, under Dyche and Moyes... If they have a Graham or Benjamin on the bench, he might get a call — I don't think they will be bringing a veteran goalkeeper on in the same position.

If we don't have faith to put him on the bench, why would another club pay decent money for players we don't want?

We all know that the academy either needs to produce players or produce cash to fund incoming. It's the Premier League model these days.

Saying it doesn't matter is smug and pointlessly defending the indefensible.

If by wherewith-all you mean if we could afford to. Then yes, the fees paid for Barry, Dibling and Anzou covers this fee. No doubt their combined wage is more than Woltemade will be earning.

So yes. We could've afforded it.

As for him choosing Newcastle ahead of us. It's precisely the reason why back in May I specifically said we should sign him and do this business early.

Newcastle signing him was entirely conditional on them selling Isak. Something that didn't happen until late in the window.

As for the 3 players mentioned, I will confidently say Aznou and Barry will never make Premier League players.

I'd go as far to say that Barry is one of the worst strikers that I have ever seen play for Everton.

Dibling, I don't know. I saw promise at Southampton but Moyes won't pick him. And it's because he doesn't think he's good enough.

You're suggesting we fast track someone to the bench who hasn't done anything to earn it yet in either U21s or on loan.

As per my article on the academy a few weeks ago, it wouldn't surprise me to see Graham, Nsangou and Olayiwola get some minutes this season -- probably in a dead rubber. But Graham's form will need to improve for that -- just as it will to secure a career-defining loan move.

If he scores or impresses, his stock rises. If he does nothing, he's at least considered highly thought of at a Premier League club.

Tom King in favour of him tells everyone else he's nowhere near it. King on the bench feels more like a contract stipulation than a club believing in its youth policy.

I'd have a graduate on the bench for every game. It gives belief in the academy that the door is open, and it's worth busting a gut.

"I think your questions all stem from the (very common on here) massive over-estimation of the quality of our U21 players."

No, the questions stem from a more general principle that is very simple in concept. Having 8 slots to pick from instead of 7 has to give the manager more options when it comes to making outfield substitutions. It also has to increase the possibility that young or fringe players on the bench might be given playing time on the field...

You say that extra option makes no difference. That response seems to completely defy simple logic.

And Ian raises a very good point. Everton used to talk about the pathway from U21s to the first team. But that talk seems to have died under Moyes.

Perhaps they now share your greater faith in the loan pathway, which I think has very mixed results and crucially creates a rift between the player and the club that the player has to bridge. Or is that is a key "make or break" aspect of the loan pathway -- to make it more difficult... as in survival of the fittest?

I'm of the view (based on how other Premier League clubs work generally now) that the U21s is absolutely not a pathway to the first team. The pathway is U18s and loan. We loan very very few players for a Premier League club.

Both our recent successes in Gordon and Branthwaite had loans. The sales of Cannon and Simms were off the back of loans. The patchy success arises from the patchy quality.

I get the point being made about options but to me it's based on an out-of-date understanding of how other clubs are successfully doing youth development. If that's smug then so be it.

I'd ask too how it's worked out for recent bench warmers in McKenzie Hunt, Callum Bates and others. Where is their big break after being put in the shop window of our bench? And where is our £7.5M?

Dobbin, Cannon, Simms, all went for good fees, and got sub appearences that secured good loan moves. Perhaps players like Antonee Robinson might have benefitted by a couple of sub appearances before we cut short.

I think we've had an academy problem for a long time. This isn't a Moyes problem as MK tries to paint, its been going on for years.

I was going to write an essay of my own experience, but it would have been long and boring, and would have basically agreed with what Robert@150, has written in his first paragraph.

I don't think Gordon had a good loan spell — I know Barkley had two poor loan spells.

It was their time here in the first team and off the bench that got us £40M for Gordon and it should have been a lor more than the £15M we got for Ross, mind you he got a better deal after delaying his move to Chelsea!

I don't believe any of Dobbin, Simms or Cannon got any first-team minutes before their loans.

No offence and more from hope than evidence but I think it's way way too early to make such a statement.

From what I saw yesterday, Beto is our starter until Barry is ready and I think Beto will eventually get some goals, but Barry needs time and I fervently hope that in January we find a competent finisher who can blend with Grealish, Ndiaye, Alcaraz, Dibling and Dewsbury-Hall, a potent combination, to push us to top 10 and the FA cup.

We're not miles off and watching the shite today we missed a chance there last time. I hope we put them cunts to the sword at BMD. They're not all that.

Cannon played 3, Dobbin 5.

To put them in the shop window, you first need them in shop I guess.

Anyway, think we've done this death. 3 sub keepers is shite. Small club mentality of a shit bench.

There’s a lot of hope involved there Mark. Moyes couldn’t win an FA cup if his life depended on it.

Here’s a prediction for you, we won’t get beyond the 4th round of the FA Cup this season.

Here’s another one. We won’t win at Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge or the Emirates and you can add that to the defeats at Anfield and Etihad we have already endured.

This spineless manager will never bring this football club success.

And when he comes up short, all you hear are excuses about how the structure or finances of the club hold him back. The signings of Barry and Anzou in a critical transfer window were absolute failures.

The first time he was here he was just 18 and not ready. Plus Silva never really fancied him.

He's now 25 and is far better now. His hold-up play has improved a lot, and he definitely knows how to score.

Offer Fiorentina Beto and cash for Kean. Would he return? I actually think he would.

It could well be that Moyes does not want to elevate one of the kids to such a status just cos we've had a run of injuries, and more for when they've shown good form.

I'm sure there is a good reason why Moyes sometimes has three goalies in the squad, he's not a complete idiot.

I thought Röhl put in a good cameo as substitute. I can see Moyes starting him in the near future. Iroegbunam also did well. We have plenty of options in midfield now.

Beto hit his purple patch last season in a worse squad than this so, even though I have been disappointed with him so far this season, I think he will be back on the score sheet soon.

I'm not a Moyes acolyte -- I want Iraola in next season. But I'll take your bet -- a tenner (virtual or real if we meet at a game) that we win one of those aways. It's not as far away as it was last season, in my opinion.

We have a half-decent team, especially in the forwards (support, not striker) department and, when Branthwaite's back, I think we'll be a force.

The goalkeeper is one position where you'd absolutely prefer the replacement(s) to be specialists (although there have been memorable stand-ins).

I don't know the odds, but I'd bet good money that two goalkeeping injuries without the third option would leave most teams (including ours) much more compromised than losing 2 players in any of the outfield positions.

In terms of ‘developing' individuals by including them in the first team match day experience…..? Well, I've known characters who really aren't cut out for bench-warming duty and would probably get really pissed off with that type of pointless ‘inclusion'.

I really don't see the 2 keeper subs as something to get aggravated about.

“Most teams will have an outfield player or two who fancies themselves as a goalie in any eventuality.” Can you substantiate that wild speculation in any way, Conor?

@163. Every game is anybody’s game until you are beaten. Try telling this to the manager that waited until he was 2-0 down at Anfield to start playing.

If Beto had scored his chance then Moyes would’ve put 11 players behind the ball and tried to defend it for the rest of the game. There’s no way we were ever coming away from that fixture with a victory.

It’s like the moaning after the Derby about the additional time. How about don’t rely on that and try and play to win the game in the first place.