We’re not in the big four and being up and around them doesn’t count so we are not to be considered on a par.
As for getting respect, that’s the way it works. Everyone else is a small team, the big four are big so they get all the bandwagon support.
If the big four were to break up I’d imagine it would cost the PL quite a bit of cash with interest from Asia waning when their prefered teams are on the slide. Sky don’t want their most watched teams sliding either.
Keep things the status quo Peter, you know it makes sense.

Peter,

I?m afraid whilst we haven?t got a pot to piss in, a thread bare squad, constantly not challenging for cups we will and will always be deemed as a small club.

Yes we have won the league more times than Chelsea, but over the next five years who would you guess would be more likely to win the league? History included also.

History counts for nothing; money talks.

You ask Peter: "What does our club have to do to get the respect of everyone?"

I?d say they need to earn it... beating Liverpool twice in a week would be a good start - it?s up to the team via the Manager.

However, even though he gets a hard time on here, sometimes justfiably, our manager seems to be respected throughout the game. I say this based upon the evidence of other Premier League club websites I occasionally visit and utterings from managers as diverse as ?Appy Arry and Keegan.

What really winds me up, is that most pundits at the begining of the season always tip Spurs as most likely to break the ?big four? deadlock.... based upon what evidence?

I have to agree with the points made above but also I have to slightly agree with you Peter.

It pisses me off too when the word ?Sky 4? is mentioned but, with a lack of trophy since 1995 and one finish in the top 4 since the Premier League was formed, we?re never gonna be in that bracket. Forget about Villa, they won?t be in Sky?s bed for long, they?re just keeping it warm I think.

Our small squad, lack of funds etc etc mean that in THEIR eyes we are a small club. We know better, don?t we?
Once a Blue, Always a Blue.

While I agree with a lot of the points here, I think history does count for somehting. To be honest M?Bia is out for cash full stop. He is ambitious for cash and that alone. We are a big club who at the moment is short of cash. That could change in a whisker as it did with City and Chelsea.

To be a contender for the top four, we need to be 6 points better off. Simple!

It has been the vogue for some considerable time for the media to overlook Everton when they talk about possible teams to win trophies, even during the halcyon days of the 80s.

Throughout the 70s, there was a constant barrage of Everton-related ?jokes? espoused from those London-based ?celebs? in the papers and on the TV. In their opinion, LFC were an international team representing England, especailly in Europe, thus LFC were able to break away from the constraints of the stereotypical ?Scouser?. Ironic really given the tales of Reds gaining entry to Wembley etc without tickets and the regular storming of ferry bars and duty-free shops.

Somehow, EFC have become representative of the City of Liverpool in a negative vein. Whilst our dear cousins are venerated and worshipped by anyone and everyone. Whilst in my opinion this has been going on for over a quarter of a century, it is only since soccer became fashionable among the middle classes that "working men's" clubs such as Everton have really taken the full force of the media, whilst the popular clubs such as Chelsea and Spurs have been fawned over ? even Villa are supported by a member of the Royal Family.

All these quotes from players who have apparently said that Everton are a small club, back up Benitez who said the same thing not too long ago and therefore keeps the myth alive and well. There is in the end not a great deal anyone can do about it but grin and bear it.

The only way for Evertonians to ?get one over? the media is to have a team that carries all before them, but even when that team arrives, don?t expect the media to eulogise about it ? in fact, expect them to undermine and sneer at every given opportunity.

I am sure the powers at Everton as well as the players and fans would love to ram it down the throats of those boring predictable assholes at Sky. Like many, I just can't wait for the "big 4" to come unstuck against the smaller fry.

We are getting closer to the 4; however, it's staying there that is the problem, then we become the norm.

As for the top six, well thats us, and as for Villa, yes they are a decent side who we played off the park at Goodison and they knew it. After all its good that we have something to aim for.

Shame about Andy Gray, a great player for us, but an absolute lousy commentator and pundit, but hey, if you can shout and growl (which he does frequently when the action hots up) then there's hope for us all.... COYB

The last straw for me was the Post Office putting Benitez on the 2008 1st class Christmas stamp.

It?s pathetic the way Tottenham were made out to be favourites to break into the top four with Aston Villa and Man City ahead of us. Who finished 5th last season again??!! They mustn?t remember!

The thing I will always remember about Sky is their coverage of the Premiership years. Liverpool seem to get shown the most every season even though they have never won the Premier League and to top it off the season we finished fourth it still shows Liverpool about 5 more times than us! Surely we should have been shown more on merit and it didn?t even show us beating Newcastle to claim fourth spot, because it hurts them to see Everton finishing above Liverpool.

The BBC aren?t much better buzzing about Aston Villa asking Martin O?Neill if they can win the league this year! What planet are they on, it just makes it all the more satisfying when we do well and it should be used as an incentive to the players to prove the pundits wrong an make the fans proud!

Michael Coffey , was that in the ’Pantomime’ section of the collection and is it really true?

It does not bother me in the slightest. As the underdog’s there is less pressure on us getting the results.

If we were expected to be top 4 challengers, and didn’t, the media could get Moyes sacked! When realistically it would (mostly) be down to funds and not management.

It will make the small article on the page near the end all the better too!

Small club of underdog’s outclass reds again on their own turf - twice in a week.

I agree with much of what has been said above on both sides. It is irritating how hard we have to work (even overachieving) to get recognition.

However, being tipped or included in discussions about breaking the big 4 doesn?t count for shit unless you finish in the top 4. Nobody?s going to remember the teams that nearly broke the monopoly, only the teams that did. Moyes and Everton have done it, but once is not enough, we have to do it consistently.

The opinion of other fans, media, managers and players is irrelevant. We know we are a great club and that?s what counts. I am happy to ignore M?Bia and wait and see what "big" club he ends up at, and whether he makes it. I have a feeling that if he does go to a "big" club he will warm the bench.

We love an underdog in this country, so I?m happy to be considered as one. At the end of the day (to coin a popular football cliche) the tag "big club" or "small club" does not affect the performances on the pitch or points tallies.

COYB!!

M?Bia summed it all up with his comments ? he?s obviously a glory hunter of the worst kind ? namely I WANT SUCCESS AND LOTS OF DOSH ? AND I WANT THEM THIS MINUTE!!!!

I am relieved that he and that other prick Julovic (or whatever his bloody name was) are coming nowhere near a football club with REAL supporters who can suss them out to be what they are ? frickin? mercenaries.

If it is any consolation, I really believe that we are slowly but surely building a more consistent team under a manager who has worked hard under considerable financial restraints (I?ve really opened up there for the Moyesie assassins to aim a blow or two at me, eh?). With the credit crunch biting deeper and deeper, it will be interesting to see which of the Sky Whores remain there (one or two cracks appearing with the Arse and ChelSKY, etc).

I know I won?t be the only Evertonian (or the remainder of other loyal and long-suffering football league team supporters) to have that sickly smirk across my face when we eventually do crack their monopoly ? it may even have been worth the annual misery suffered over the last couple of decades.

I can?t believe it! Benitez on the 1st class stamp and him and Sammy Lee on the 2nd class. I?m buying a carrier pigeon.

Ste, maybe you will be able to say you licked them 3 times in one month!

I too hate the way at the beginning that Everton are not tipped to break into the top four, yet Tottenham & Man City constantly are. Where are these two teams now and how many different managers have they had since Moyes has been in charge?

I couldn't give a flying fuck about Sky's perception of Everton... Or the BBC's for that matter. What matters is that Villa have been riding their luck of late and it won't last forever, it seldom does.

What frustrates me most is the fact that we haven't got any fit forwards and before you say Victor is coming back, ask yourself do you really believe this kid is good enough?

We are a week into the transfer market and at present there is fuck all news of new players that are desperately needed, especially with the fixtures we have coming up. So are we going down the same old road we have been down before, where we fuck around until the last minute?

I know there are three weeks left but these things should have been well under way prior to the window opening.

The reason Villa are being touted by various media outlets at the moment is that they?re exciting! Without going through their entire squad I can say that the likes of Young, Agbonlahor and Milner make Aston Villa good to watch and have plenty of potential. Not only that, those particular three are English!

Everton on the other hand are try-hards. We?re not a compelling side to watch nor do we have any youngsters coming through who I?d deem creative or exciting. Gosling and Vaughan may be a good players but they?re not going to set the world on fire or change games...

Apart from that, Villa have shown this season that they can compete with, and even outplay, the top four - as evidenced by the Arsenal game. Sure, they might have wanted a better result but they outclassed Arsenal. When was the last time we can say we did the same?

As much as we want Everton to be up there, and mentioned in the same breath as your Arsenals, Utds and Chelseas, we?re not. We have no money, no Rooneys coming through the ranks, and no prospects of a filthy rich Arab coming to buy us out. So, being realistic, I?d say Aston Villa?s challenge on the top four is much more likely to succeed than ours!

You hit the nail on the head there Garry.

Whilst I agree that Everton don?t get the respect we deserve from most sections of the media, I do think that a lot of fans up and down the country think we are a great club. They admire DM, the stability, our history and the way we have been knocking on the ?top 4 door? for a few years without outrageous spending.

I cancelled my Sky subscription last month ? they can fuck off.

Yeap, the great Villa with the exiting football, to claim that they have outplayed Arsenal is realy pathetic, what about their great football against West Ham or the Tigers or even us? ? These guys were sooooooo lucky and dreadful in these games that it was unbelievable how they managedto sneak 3 wins against teams that totally, totally outplayed them.

Brian, for you it's usual to praise every other team bar Everton, it was Wigan a few seasons ago, then Reading and Portsmouth, and watch out for Spurs in the close season... so nothing new there as well.

Garry

Stop wetting yourself about Villa, you sound like O'Neill's army of admirers on MotD. (I wonder why they love him ? because he has worked with them and gives good soundbites?) I am not the greatest fan of Moyes but if he had half the money O'Neill had been given we would have been in the top four now.

Let's be honest the football that Utd and Arsenal play is great at times but I am afraid that Chelsea, the RS and Villa don't excite me in the least.

I don't give a shite about what the media say about us ? particularly the TV as it is populated by gobshites.

Talking about media shite - with two derbies coming up at the old ground, BBC5Live are likely to give Alan Green two free tickets to his favourite place in the world. I am starting to email them with predictions about the man’s bias. If you have a spare minute or two in your busy schedules please do the same. No dramatic results expected, but we have to try.

I have debated this point for years. Living in the South, I am constantly reminded that Everton are the ?second team? in the city. I am even told that Newcastle are bigger than Everton! What pisses me off is that Chelsea were on a par with QPR ten years ago and due to shed loads of cash have become the ?Man U? of the South.

The truth is that ?big club? has to encompass everything: History, Average attendance, ground, recency and ability to attract players and I believe Everton are probably on a par with Villa and Spurs... ie, top 6/7 NOW.

We have never won the double and much as I love Goodison, that stadium is totally outdated. We have been in the top flight longer than anyone bar Arsenal and in terms of trophies won we are 4th in the English League!

The last ten years has been in the main shit although Moyes has done an amazing job even if we are always last on MOTD. I don't want a shite souless stadium (what have Arsenal won since they moved into the Emirates?) and we have stayed truer than most to our roots even though we are potless. COYB

It secretly aggravates me too that we don?t get the credit we deserve, but we should be embracing it!! We can go undetected, without praise (who really cares) and sneak that 4th place finish right under the noses of Arsenal, while they worry about Villa.

I happen to think that the lower our profile and expectation the better we generally do! So let's stop worrying about what others think and concentrate on getting behind the boys!

Sure it's frustrating for the pundits to tip Villa, Spurs and Man City ahead of us to challenge the Sky 4, but can you really blame them given the shambles of a summer we had? We hardly spent a dime whilst other clubs were spraying money around like it was going out of fashion.

I give props where props are due.

Garry Corgan nailed it!

Every year the Top 4 get more and more money from Champions League and Sky / ITV etc etc and as a consequence more global support. They are the glamour sides that people support whilst they are trendy; Spurs and Villa are slightly less trendy... then there is us, Man City and Newcastle, thats the way the cookie crumbles. Don't like it but that's the way it is.

With the possible exception of Arsenal, look at the shite or the waste of money those clubs spend on players like M'bia, Parker etc etc. I for one am glad we never spent £20m on Keane [did you see those misses against Preston?] or sold Defoe for £7.5m only to buy him back 1 year on for £15m ? what has he done to double his price???

I am glad we are underdogs and the press leave us alone, I remember Unsworth having a good season, the press rated him and linked him with all the BIG teams... what happened? He believed it, thought he was better than he was and went shite [a bit like Lescott this season].

So for one being rated by Sky knobheads or the British media, I?m glad we aren?t [look at Moyes before signing his contract]. It Affects the team and I?d rather sneak into the TOP 4 than be built up just to be knocked down by the wankers whose job it is to build up then knock people down again.

One of the most surprising things that have been seen in the past month or so is the improvement in the quality of the football we have played. However, perception of the media is that EFC have no money, no class, work hard (due to DM's work ethic), no stars, no threat. A good hardworking team but a club that has no money and tells everyone they haven?t, so why should we be perceived as a big club? ... as a contender for the top four?

Those teams Villa, Spurs, Man City etc have all spent money and have access to more if needed. Their individual players have more potential than Everton but then their teams lack something we do have. Belief.

Moyes has consistently got he best out of what he has. Except for this season, he has been on the ball and if we had won half our home games we would be in the top four.

You cut your cloth to suit your money. The fact is the "Big Four" has access to more money, more credit, more opportunity than any other clubs.

The fact that the media have an undoubted bias against Everton is reflected in the fact we are not seen as a threat, not seen as exciting. and we fail to beat the big 4 consistently. So, in their eyes we haven't got what it takes.

Moyes himself admitted this to the press at the start of the season, he may have showed his integrity and honesty in doing so, but as a means of promoting the brand Everton, it did the club and the team no favours.

The next month should be interesting because, if we can set the cat amongst the pigeons and beat RS twice, and fellow members of the Sky conglomerate, then we will have gone a long way to shutting these prats up. If we don't then expect us to be overlooked as contenders for another season.

Results count; perception and expectation come before a fall...

Except I don’t believe Moyes has installed belief in the team that we CAN beat a top4 side. Here’s waiting for a crunching tackle by Pip on Gerrard.

Leave them to it, it?s no good Evertonians berating Sky all the time and then moaning we are not considered to be media favourites by them. Who cares what some mercenary foreigner thinks? His comments were probably more down to the fact that we offered half the wage that the likes of West Ham and Newcastle would. Small in his mind is purely in monetary terms (although as a footballer he won?t have a real functional brain just one of those genetic mutations possessed by the likes of Rooney and Terry). As long as performances and results are there, who cares?

Regarding M’Bia. Ask yourselves this. Would he have considered Man City a big club this time last year? I don’t think so. That type of arsehole the team can do without.

However, it’s not just his type or Sky or MOTD, every betting site at the begining of the season has us behind Villa, Spurs and City and on a par with the barcodes.

The sad truth is, we don’t have any money, bar last seasons Carling Cup, haven’t really challenged for any trophy in years and we rarely (if ever) defeat any of the Sky 4. Add to that, the 4-5-1, although effective is not attractive to watch for a neutral (and sometimes painful for us).

Like it or not unless we get investment, or begin to win trophies on a shoestring, this perception is here to stay.

I disagree with the people who are suggesting our recent formation of 4-5-1 or 4-6-0 is not entertaining for the fans.

I agree that in recent times we have been a pretty boring side for the neutrals to watch, but recently, since Arteta's move, I think we are playing some excellent attacking football. I particularly like what Baines brings to the team. Perhaps some people should give credit where its due, instead of bleating the same old shit all the time.

You can?t say anything on this site without somone having a go.

Franny, my point is, that the perception of other fans is, that we don?t play attractive football. We might be getting results lately but barring the Villa and (maybe) the Sunderland games, we haven?t exactly played dazzling football.

So, all I?m saying is that we are 3 or 4 players short of quality and maybe changing that perception.

Liam, who exactly would you drop to put these 3 or 4 players in? Arteta, Fellaini, Cahill, Pienaar, Osman? Granted with our history with strikers, we need a short term fix, but where else you gonna put these 4 players you talk of? Defence?

And then if you do buy these so called quality players that means that Gosling, Rodwell, Baxter etc... drop down another 4 team slots. Then in 2 or 3 years time, when they will be coming to their peak, they will be well behind in the pecking order. People will never be pleased, we moaned when we were 6th from bottom and now we are 6th from top and it seems to have gotten worse.

Gary Corgan hit it on the head. We do not and have not had any one footballer in the team for years who can set the stage alight. Rooney had it, the media knew it and it felt great at the time. He saved us in a different way and I am made up for that but we also pay the cost by the club not getting the attention it deserves.

DM is doing a great job keeping the club where it is but if he does not add some intelligence and style to his hardworking teams then we will fail to deliver against the Sky 4 and so lose that respect that come with it.

Andy, I’m not moaning. I’m saying it how I think it is. Do you honestly think we would have the same first team if we had an influx of cash?

Osman, Pienaar, Hibbert, Neville, Anichebe, Nash, Castillo, VDM. Sqaud players at best and wouldn’t get a look in at any of the other top sides in the league: Sky 4 + Villa, Spurs and moneybags City.
These players either have no competition for their places or provide little competition.

Moyes, even with Rooney, will only use the younger players as late substitutes, so bringing in new players won’t affect their development anyway. Actually, playing them with better players should only improve them.

Im not slagging off these players, most of them are good pro’s, but if we are to go up that extra level we need additional quality in the side.

That’s just my opinion.

I?m only really interested in the well-being of the club & the performances on the pitch. If the club is well run & the team is performing well then everything else will take care of itself.

Oh, yeh. I must also point out that when Warren Hayward posts :"We have been in the top flight longer than anyone bar Arsenal...", I presume he means the current run since last promoted (not that Arsenal were fairly promoted), as in terms of total time in the top flight we are miles ahead of any other club ? we?ve only missed 4 seasons since the league started!

Weird ? I?m frustrated that we?re not in the top four, but you?re frustrated that we?re not ?talked about? for the top four. You?re a sensitive lad.

SKY are running a business, as are all media stations, newspapers, etc, inc. the supposedly impartial BBC. It makes perfectly good business sense to market at your largest market. Unfortunately, the likes of Man Utd & Liverpool have millions of fans all over the country, teams like Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs have the huge populus of London on the doorstep, so resurgent teams like Everton and Villa are considered niche markets and will not get the same coverage.

For me, the only way for Everton to break into this is to acquire millions more fans across the UK, Europe and the rest of the world. This will only happen by either winning things or by signing world renowned players that sell shirts.

Spot on Liam... The constant cry of "Who would you drop... Cahill, Osman, Pienaar..." ? They?re all mediocre players, FFS.!!!