If ever there was a move to destroy the fanbase of Everton Football Club , this move to Kirkby looks like it was cobbled together by Rick Parry and his co-horts, they can sit tight in the knowledge that their fans have no need to worry about journey times or extra costs, it really pisses me off!

Also, if people want to drive, how do you work out that they could be responsible for the state of the club? As for the planet I suggest you point your finger at China or Russia for real culprits. Possibly the stupidest reply to a post I've ever seen on Toffeeweb.

An exiled scouser, I drive from North Wales every home game so it could be argued that the move to Kirkby won?t have any effect on me at all. However, I have a good parking space five minutes walk from Goodison and consequently can leave my house an hour and threequarters before kick off and still be sure of getting in on time. The prospect of using a crap transport system at considerable extra cost does not fill me with anything other than dread.

James Marshall. You say "Having said that, surely people who drive will have a similar journey to that of getting to Goodison anyway?" Believe me, it will. Parking/transport problems have not been addressed sufficiently to make me think that there will be no loss of support. I think that a lot of people are dismayed with the way football in general, not just Everton, has gone with money speaking so loudly now and this could well be the straw to break the camel's back.

I know people who have given up watching the Blues, initially for financial reasons, kids etc., but have not started attending matches again when finances allow because they?ve found an alternative for Saturday afternoons. They still remain Blues "fans" but now from their armchairs. Any obstacles that makes supporters think twice about attending should surely be avoided.

And, please, don?t give me any crap about me or anyone else not being true fans... I?ve been going for 50 years, home and occasionally away, and don?t need any condescending or impertinent remarks from you or anyone else. No offence intended.

As I is said earlier, if we had a transport system good enough then maybe more would choose to use it. Blame the powers that be, not the man in the street.

Driving out from the city centre or along the motorway? ? Fine except you?ll be stuck in huge queues in & especially out of Kirkby due to the lack of access roads. Oh yeh, you?ll also have to park so far away from the stadium you?ll qualify for membership of the ramblers association.

Want to use public transport? ? great! Except there isn?t sufficient capacity & those travelling by train could be waiting out in the rain for over an hour before being crush-loaded onto trains into the city centre. And if the club could source all the buses they need for their transport plans, they would completely gridlock Kirkby.

Cycling? ? super! But get there early as they only propose to offer cycle parking for about a quarter of the number they estimate will use that method of transportation. Nevermind, just wait until I get my sedan chair business going!

The reason is the basics aren?t anywhere near in place and never will be..... the desired 60k fell to 55k then 50k and now potentially just 40k all on the back of a half-baked transport plan. What chance has this place ever got of expansion if it can?t even satisfy its current proposed transport criteria?

The insistence that they can get public transport useage increased for a site that has only a fraction of the public transport seats of Walton is laughable. The summary dismissal of the loop partly on accessibility grounds, partly on expandability when it has over 20 times Kirkby?s public transport capacity and is already larger in proposed capacity than DK is now shown for what it was. .... unsubstantiated propoganda.

There is no logic nor genuine planning strategy, just an old pals act being driven by Tesco and arcadia to fulfill their objectives with EFC as their enablers all trying to justify the unjustifiable. A joke from start to finish!! Large modern stadia need substantial mass public transit capacity, that?s why they are building most new stadia downtown..... only a large number of trains/trams and buses can move large numbers rapidly which is precisely what stadia require...... peripheral Kirkby can never provide this.

Did I mention the fact that Tom's worries about transport are unfounded? I estimate approximately 2,000 fans arriving by train which is less than at Goodison, the other half will come by car... so, hey no need for crush loading or buses or any of that bike shit some people on here are talking about.

The best bit for me will be getting the week's shopping in before the match, then maybe convince the bird to come in for a look around with the free tickets you get for spending £10 on Tesco tat.

Bring it on Bill!

See yous there ? can?t wait!

In order to assist with this ?encouragement?, one of the plans involves the building of a new platform at Kirkby Station. To quote from the report of ?Day 18? on the EFC official site; ?improvements would be made to Kirkby Station to deal with the increased matchday capacity, including a new platform, a new footbridge and a widening of platforms. He also added the applicant has agreed to contribute towards the cost of the improvements. A new platform will be used to separate football fans and the normal train users.?

And then again, as mentioned on ?Day 19?; ?he thought the new north side platform at Kirkby station would be used on match days only and the costs were being met by the applicants and Merseytravel.? So, there?s going to be a new platform at the station, and EFC and Merseytravel are going to pay for it. But, at what cost?

May I take you back to a report that appeared on the NSNO site back in June? (If you want to look for yourself, try www.nsno.co.uk/news.php?extend.3451 ). That particular report confirmed that Network Rail estimated the cost of the land required to build such a platform would be ?up to £19m?, and that they wouldn?t be paying for it! And that figure doesn?t include the cost of actually building the platform, footbridge etc .

Even if EFC and Merseytravel go 50:50, you?re still looking at a considerable amount of money and for what purpose.....to separate the football fans from the shoppers! So much for the virtually free Deal of the Century.

The reality is that if public transportation becomes de facto mandatory, the gates will drop below 40,000 anyway. The only way to prise people from their cars while at the same time moving to a suburban wilderness is to so improve the public transportation system that it becomes infinitely preferable to a private vehicle. Instead, the plan is to make parking either too expensive or non-existent.

Has Manchester Utd, Chelsea or Liverpool agreed to force their fans to leave their cars at home? We should abandon Disaster Kirkby now.

Check out how many areas in Merseyside have direct bus/train routes to Walton and compare this to Kirkby...... not to mention the fact that the more central Walton is nearer to national and local train and coach hubs, the all important Wirral line services which serve an area that currently supplies over 1/3rd of our season ticket holders, and all the city-center?s bus services which cover every part of Merseyside. Kirkby doesn?t even come close, literally!

All I care about is numbers.
Can Everton, in a new location (Kirkby), fill 50k? If it can, and there is a willing corporate partner hence limiting exposure while increasing badly needed funds, then this seems on the surface to be a positive move for the club. If they can fill 50k then it?s a sound business investment.

Nevermind the (albeit very good I?m sure) fans around GP at present. They probably sound off from an emotional angle, being either put out or possibly cut out of attending games.

What ?s the terrain? Will Kirkby fill up? Please enlighten an American with what you view as the facts from a strict business perspective. That would be really good info for a guy who truly is naive to the distance and feasibility of actually getting to a new ground.

Everton will be here in another 100 years as long as we haven't destroyed the planet by then. Whether or not the club is financially successfull and in the top flight is down to us now. The deal is there for the taking, there are no other viable alternatives, we will relocate, build an improved fanbase through proper commercial know-how and within the next 10-15 years be back where we belong.

This may sound pie in the sky but positivity breeds success and this has to be the way forward. Up the Blues.

This is an £80-100m stadium that we are practically paying for in its entirety. No benefit at all has been gleaned from this partnership. Far better to spend that amount over a series of affordable phases on GP to easily surpass anything offered at Kirkby on a site with far superior public transport and within close proximity to the city centre..... alternatively, utilise a downtown site which will yield far greater value and profile, and use that cash as a down payment on a far more suitable stadium scheme than DK. This "only alternative" is built on quick sand and is a massive gamble, Goodison is solid and real and invested in to the tune of millions of hours of Evertonian memories. Kirkby is just a pretty picture in the dark, backed by lie after lie!

Walton is served by several times more buses and several times more trains than Kirkby. It is not even close. Being central it allows fans to utilise buses and trains and all traffic lanes in both directions.... Kirkby being at the end of the line in terms of buses and trains will NEVER do this and only has limited access routes from the main conurbation in any case.

I predominently use public transport to get to GP from South Liverpool, and can achieve this on a single bus journey; however, when going by car we park within half a mile of GP and get away in minutes everytime (as opposed to parking on vast car parks with one exit a la Bolton etc). This for the majority of Liverpool and Merseyside districts is not possible at Kirkby.

That said, I do know a bit about Kirkby?s transport infrastructure having worked there for over 6 years and having been on the design team for Merseytram line one to Kirkby, but as I said I wouldn?t need to call on any of that experience for such a simple comparison.

Did you know that Liverpool also has the lowest car ownership of all provincial cities (The experts didn?t)? Approx 40% of Liverpool households don?t even have access to a car so where is the sense in planning for a car reliant venue next to a shopping centre that will hog all the road space and parking capacity in anycase? I have been involved with projects where so called experts are brought in to sell a development?s benefits and are paid for by the client.... we all know how it works. Hence the backtracking and last minute stipulations!!

Like I said, where are all these companies now taking advantage of Evertonian?s demand. I don?t have to sway public opinion at all, each unfolding lie did that months ago... the Public Inquiry that so many pro-Kirkby voters said would never happen because this was Tesco or because Kirkby is in need or whatever will see to that. That said, show me a single opinion poll on any Everton fan website that indicates ANY support for DK now, and then you can tell me about public opinion.

BTW, can you tell me how much a stadium at the Loop would cost.... if not why not? Why weren?t we informed about this at the vote? Fact is, an £80-100m stadium costs the same on the Loop as it does in Kirkby. Construction costs do not vary across Merseyside. The transport strategy has been getting kicked about for almost 3 years, we designed Liverpool?s, Manchester?s, Sheffield?s and Nottingham?s tram systems in a fraction the time.... like I said no expert, but I know bull when I hear it..... and the latest 40k reductions prove it! But you can carry on blissfully and blindly following the parade condemning long-term blues who are not so easily led!

At what point does this become a well thought-out process, that will get more people on public transport than at Goodison, at a site that only boasts 4-5k public transport seats (including those going to Kirkby anyway)?

Then when you have unravelled that contradiction you can solve the riddle of filling the place to pay for it, for apparently that is what?s required! i.e. get 15k more fans, at a site they can?t get to as easily, and is not backed by a large proportion of blues already. By the way the emirates and Spurs new stadium are in areas boasting 100k+ public transport capacity to give you some idea of the disparity.

This so called transport plan has all the arrogance and dismissive attitude of old fat pants Wyness... Let them eat cake ? when you get there, you can buy it in Tesco.

My guess is that the light of the even harsher economic climate that prevails today there would be an even bigger vote in favour of Kirkby by those Evertonians who choose to live in the real world.

Of course we?ll never know this ? so those who currently live with 10 minutes of the ground (I once did myself) and those who currently have local hero status ? and given priority service in their pre-match locals ? keep moaning but also never forget that if Kirkby fails (and we eventually and permanently slip out of the top 10 premier clubs - or worse) your self- centred opinions and lack of vision will have made a major contribution to our fate.

D Cochrane said:

Everyone is talking about this today in work. Non of us can fathom how on earth they reckon 70% of Supporters going to the games at Goodison do so by car. On a full gate this would be in the region of 25-30 thousand. Is this fact ?

To be honest I couldn?t be arsed replying further right now since I?m watching an Old Grey Whistle Test DVD which seems to be far more important than giving you a more considered reply. I hope this doesn?t offend your status as an anti-Kirkby force to be reckoned with. Will try to get back to you when time permits.

Michael, you accuse Clive of popping up out of nowhere! Is that a crime? Perhaps Toffeeweb should be re-named ?Toffeeweb - The Evertonian?s Anti-Kirkby Website. I?ve just gone over the posts for this particular thread. It starts of with dear old Monty?s ?welded to the car rant? which many contributors responded to throughout the thread. Not Tom though; he waits patiently for the first post that gives him the opportunity to steer the debate back to his transportation obsession. Yet he berates Clive for not sticking to the substance of the thread!

I used to live a 10 minute walk from Goodison. It now takes me a 1 hour drive, tunnel fees and a 15 minute walk. If I want a decent parking spec and a pint with the lads I have to leave 3 hours before KO. I sit in Lower Bullens which is a museum piece! So what! I?ll find the best way of getting to Kirkby and so will every other Evertonian.

I sit with 6 other mates who are season ticket holders. They travel from all points of the compass around the city including one by soccer bus and one by train. Originally six of us voted (independently) for Kirkby and one against. The one against attended the special meeting at Goodison which resulted in him to change his mind and he is now in favour of Kirkby.
The point being that the contention of so many contributors to ToffeeWeb that most Evertonians have now seen the light and are now firmly anti-Kirkby is completely without foundation and (to be honest) crap! (Wow hope that doesn?t get me banned for being insulting ? insults are apparently OK providing they?re from an anti-Kirkby contributor!)

I?m one of those naïve people who thinks Bill Kenwright is a good bloke. I?m also well impressed with Robert Elstone. I believe a new ground at Kirkby is best hope for the future. The loop site is a joke and the redevelopment of Goodison has to be a non-starter with cost something like 4 times the cost of a new build at Kirkby. The pro-voters are realists who believe that a our only hope of a new ground is at Kirkby and we know it come with a cost but that cost will be cheaper than any other option.

I actually trust the board?s judgment to do the right thing for the club?s future. I have got better things to do than analyse every peripheral issue to find fault. As a lifelong Evertonian who used to play street football in Bullens Road ? Goodison Park is not the heart of the club. The heart is the supporters and the team wherever they are ? and if that?s in a new stadium in Kirkby ? so much the better!

When I first discovered ToffeeWeb I told everyone I knew how good the site it was. Over time people have commented to the effect that the site is inhabited by a bunch of anti-Kenwright moaners. I?m starting to think they?re right. It also seems that it has firmly adopted an anti-Kirkby stance. Are there any pro-Kirkby people on the Editorial staff or has there been a putsch?

Anyway writing that makes me feel a lot better. Michael, if you ban Clive will you please ban me? I don?t know him from Adam. (Will Tom Hughes now think Adam, me and Clive are the same person?) It will be an honour to be associated with someone who has tried to hold his own against the vociferous (is it the use of that word that makes Tom think we?re all the same person? Love it!) anti-Kirkby Brigade. I really wish your site could be flooded with the pro-Kirkby silent majority but I suspect they?re all enjoying the current football and getting on with their lives.

God bless you all. Now time for a drink!

The secondary fact that some seem more obsessed with attacking me than the actual subject matter is perhaps another matter. Funnily, when offering to meet any of these characters for a pre/post-match discussion of the issues, they never want to know...... it?s much harder to be several people at once in real life. If Sid isn?t Ged or Clive or Colin or Ian or any other of a vast array of invented characters, he wont mind meeting up...... Hopefully with something pertinent to say!

I might even be able to make OZ for our Clive if that?s where he really lives haha. Unfortunately, I work abroad, so am not always home for the match, but when home I?m available!!

In your last post you use the expression ?so called "pro-Kirkby" stance?. Why is it necessary to add the disparaging ?so called?? There are, as we all know, two distinct camps (or maybe 3 if you count the couldn?t care less-ers); there are those for a move to Kirkby and those against.

Why I take issue with you in particular is because when I did my first post on this thread I was immediately attacked by you and (I think ? apologies if I?m wrong) David O?Keefe as having a now outdated view ? as if no-one could possibly still favour a move to Kirkby. Well, I know from people I speak to ? not just the other six I sit with ? that there are. So quite simply isn?t it about time you got real and accepted that fact? By all means carry on making your points but don?t talk to anyone who has opposing views as if they are thick and completely misguided. Also just because they don?t want to meet up with you doesn?t mean they don?t exist.

As I said earlier, I favour the move and have a belief that whatever problems there may be (including in your area of interest) they will be overcome. I don?t find it particularly easy to get to Goodison Park now ? so there?ll be nothing new there! What I don?t want to do is debate the detail with special interest people like you! My decision (and I suspect it?s the same for many Evertonians) is strategic. Sorry if that sounds a bit grandiose!

If I may digress for a minute just to illustrate a point. Some months ago a woman contributor put a post on the site relating to the retail side of things. She obviously had some experience in this area. She had all the right phrases about retail space issues and calculations (pi r squared multiplied by twice the area of an Asda car parking space). In the next breath she was being suggested for Chief Executive by posters who had been impressed by her!

My point is: what the hell has any of the retail side got to do with us? If Tesco say the scheme is viable; then it?s viable. Naturally I realise if you?re against you will try do discredit the scheme any way you can. I?m in favour so I couldn?t care less about the detail. I accept there will be things I will like and things I won?t. Nobody consulted me when they built Goodison Park!

You mentioned to Graham that pro-Kikby posters seem obsessed with attacking you. That?s because from what I?ve seen as soon as pro-Kirkby view appears in a post (particular if there?s a travel/transport issue) you?re amongst the first in there to do haranguing. You talk about insults but, if you read some of your own posts, you're not above dishing our the odd insult yourself ? as Graham pointed out. I?m probably done with this particular thread but then again never say never! Don?t suppose you consider starting a ?bring back Clive campaign?. In the meantime I?ll carry on until I?m banned!

Tom (and many others) cares a helluva lot about the detail, so that explains for me why you are on different planes. Your blind faith in the Club’s and Tesco’s support of the scheme and their innate ability to "do it right" flies in the face of so much we have heard from the Public Inquiry.... but again, if you couldn?t care less about the detail, there’s not much point discussing it is there? Why not leave it to those who do?

I guess only time will tell whose right. I look forward to finding out. In the meantime I?ve said my piece and now, as you suggest, I surrender the detailed debate to those who believe they care more. No insult or malice intended in that last statement. Best wishes.

The things that won?t iron themselves out are the reality, confirmed by Deloitte, that a 47,000 attendance level throughout the season will generate £6M, not £10M as some believed, and that an extra 10,000 supporters will travel to Kirkby and queue for buses and trains to take them back to Liverpool and beyond or their cars, no parking and very little third party parking will be allowed within 2 miles of the stadium, confirmed at the inquiry last week.

I?ll ask you this, do you think 10,000 stay-away supporters who currently don?t go to Goodison because of obstucted views and poor facilities will be keen to put up with the transport infrastructure of a town of 42,000 that will not be undergoing any improvements before or after the proposed stadium is built? I don?t either.

The forecast is 38,000, backed up by information from Deloitte, which means, for a loss-making business, very little increase in revenue will be available to the manager. It?s interesting that you know lots of people in favour, I know very few, as a matter of interest, where abouts do you live?

John, from the posts I've read, Colin and Tom seem to have the facts and Clive and Sid seem to be spouting the same old crap and pipe dreams, they do actually seem like mischievous posts to me.

It would appear Knowsley Council don?t share your optimism hence the stipulation about reduced capacity. This was also flagged up over a year ago by several on here and we were ridiculed for it then, only for it to become "official" now. These so called "minor" details have been mounting up since before the ballot result was anounced..... but for anyone to discount transport as if it can be resolved so readily is ridiculous.

In my job, I have to solve problems, not ignore them. This is the whole future of our club. We are being threatened with having the stadium with the worst public transport in the UK for any major football stadium all in a city where almost 40% of the population don?t even have access to a car. This is fundamantal and not a minor detail to be brushed under the carpet like all the others thus far.

Out-of-town stadia are a thing of the past unless you have massive mass transit capacity to serve it..... 5k max per hr is nowhere near that, and never will be for a fortnightly event venue..... hence no-one talking about funding for increased capacity etc.

What do you prefer ? mischief or deception? No-one waits over 1 hour to get on a bus or train at Goodison, that is what?s on offer at Kirkby according to their own consultants..... why wasn?t that in the voting material? Mischief? Not what I?d call it!