The Mail Bag
Moyes ? Everton's Lightning Rod
Comments (73)
It strikes me reading the mailbag threads that the Fellaini booking/Moyes?s non-substitution throws up a whole set of points with regard to David Moyes. His non-decision today to keep Fellaini on the field is for some more evidence of Dithering Dave, a man reluctant or even unable to make a decision, a decision that for some was evident the minute Everton scored the second goal.
For others, seizing on this is making a mountain out of a molehill and is evidence of ToffeeWeb?s ability to attract the most nitpicking and contentious Everton supporters, who would still have quibbles if a Moyes-led Everton delivered the Premier league title, the FA cup and placed 1-2-3 on Strictly Come Dancing.
Neither point of view is without merit, but both extremes highlight some really important issues. Fellaini?s booking may cost us in the future and given our next opponents if it does, we as Evertonians, won?t quickly forget. But more importantly six years in, David Moyes has failed to master the intricacies and complexities of substitutions and team adjustments.
A Moyes-led team stands or fails as they are introduced at the start of the match. Not since the waning days of Duncan Ferguson or the days of Rooney has Moyes had a sub to introduce off the bench and change a game. Or maybe he has one in Gosling, Rodwell, Baxter or Jutkiewicz but we?ll never know as Moyes?s timidity or his conservatism ? take your pick ? means that these kids are introduced in the 90th minute or some such. It is frustrating and perplexing. Maybe someone in the covering press corps could ask him about it (yeah, I know ? that?ll be the day).
Another wider point thrown up in what strikes me as a pretty minor discussion about the Fellaini booking is the position of David Moyes as a lightning rod for Everton supporters. I have to say that I think that is a part of the job description when you manage a club of Everton?s history and outstanding pedigree. Everton?s manager will always occupy a hot seat.
As Everton fans we have expectations and traditions we would like to see reflected in our manager and team. Sometimes we are sorely disappointed (yes, Walter Smith, I?m looking at you); sometimes we are rewarded with a true reflection of our imperfect selves (stand up Howard, thank you Joe Royle). I?m an Everton supporter first and of course I want to support the manager. David Moyes does not always make that easy.
I try not to criticise his team selections, reasoning that he has seen players train, exercise, apply themselves or not, all week, and I have not and the team is a reflection of what has happened in the days leading up to a game. He knows who is working hard, who is injured, who is in tip-top condition and who has been coasting or not looking sharp, so I let that be.
Nor do I criticize when Moyes speaks of transfers or when he alludes to the byzantine inner workings of the Everton money men, figuring it would take a Solomon to figure out what the creatures who shuffle papers and finance deals from the bowels of Fortress Evertonia are up to.
What I do think is fair game for criticism is what happens on the pitch ? application, style of play, ambition ? and importantly, how Moyes reacts during a game. I think he preps his teams pretty well. When it all kicks off, I think he is lost. He seems unable or unwilling to adjust to changing circumstances on the field. His substitutions when they come ? always too late to my mind ? are typically non-factors. It remains his biggest failing.
Paul Daly, Posted 11/01/2009 at 12:14:01
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A fair assessment, Paul, I can totally understand the frustations of fans that we will be missing a key player for the double header against that horrible lot, it was nothing short of naive from Moyes. However, the only thing that really annoyed me about the criticisms was when TW editer Michael Kenrick claimed Arteta was extremley lucky with his free kick. Now maybe this was just frustrations over Fellaini being left on to pick up another yellow, but I felt very this was very harsh on what was clearly a brilliantly executed set piece straight from the training ground. Only on Toffeweb would that get called lucky.
Paul Merson called that free kick ’Ronaldo-esque’.
More would have been made of it if it was Ronaldo connecting with it. I have to say I was a little disappointed with Kenrick’s comments too, very negative.
More would have been made of it if it was Ronaldo connecting with it. I have to say I was a little disappointed with Kenrick’s comments too, very negative.
If you have players on the bench who can make a difference then bring them on. Gravesen at Bolton last year, also McFadden on occassion? Anichebe at Nurnburg? If not maybe he is right to leave it? If you accept Moyes knows best on team selection, then why not substitutions? I understand your point but i think he does make changes when he has to, admittedly when we?re chasing the game in the main, but who are we to say that is wrong? Why do we always think we know better? I certainly don?t.
Problem is it a tough one to call. Or is the Arsenal home game or Man Utd game the ones he should have missed?
It a tough call, Arsenal at home we should be looking to get something from, possibly more so than Liverpool away. And lets face it, if the big lad had played at Anfield, he would have got booked in one or the other.
If you ask me I would have been hard pressed to say which two games I would have preferred he played in, we got a huge chance against Arsenal though, and pull them in, so part of me is at least content he will be playing and fresh.
It a tough call, Arsenal at home we should be looking to get something from, possibly more so than Liverpool away. And lets face it, if the big lad had played at Anfield, he would have got booked in one or the other.
If you ask me I would have been hard pressed to say which two games I would have preferred he played in, we got a huge chance against Arsenal though, and pull them in, so part of me is at least content he will be playing and fresh.
It could have cost us if we’d have taken him off against Hull.
This season we’ve not been averse to throwing away a 2 goal lead (think Newcastle and others).
Also remember the first game against Hull when we came back from 2 down? Can’t rule out a return.
The most important game is the one you’re in right now. Moyes could have taken Big Fella off and we could have lost 2 points and then got nothing against the shite anyway. We’ll never know.
We may even beat the shite without Big Fella ... again you never know.
Moyes made absolutely the right decision to leave him on the pitch.
This season we’ve not been averse to throwing away a 2 goal lead (think Newcastle and others).
Also remember the first game against Hull when we came back from 2 down? Can’t rule out a return.
The most important game is the one you’re in right now. Moyes could have taken Big Fella off and we could have lost 2 points and then got nothing against the shite anyway. We’ll never know.
We may even beat the shite without Big Fella ... again you never know.
Moyes made absolutely the right decision to leave him on the pitch.
I’m with Dave.
Likely Moyes had in mind the fact that our third fixture after Hull is vs. Arsenal, and in the grand scheme of things I’d rather have the big lad available for that game.
As far as our season is concerned, having the better chance of taking all three points off Arsenal would do us far more good than taking 3 of the RS. Having Marou play vs. the RS would almost certainly have seen him carded and absent when the Gooners pay us a visit.
On that basis, perhaps DM deserves quiet praise for playing it shrewd?!
Likely Moyes had in mind the fact that our third fixture after Hull is vs. Arsenal, and in the grand scheme of things I’d rather have the big lad available for that game.
As far as our season is concerned, having the better chance of taking all three points off Arsenal would do us far more good than taking 3 of the RS. Having Marou play vs. the RS would almost certainly have seen him carded and absent when the Gooners pay us a visit.
On that basis, perhaps DM deserves quiet praise for playing it shrewd?!
Good article Paul. I’d agree that is Moyes’ major failing, but in 6 years you would have thought that possibly his assistants (Irvine, Round, Lumsden) would have offered advice as to when a sub was needed or the game needed changing. Because of the lack of assisting from the coaches it’s lead me to believe one of the following is true:
a) Moyes’s assistants are too timid to tell Moyes if a change is needed, for fear of his rather authoritian management style.
b) Moyes ignore assistants advice. We have heard a lot over the years that Moyes is stubborn and very head strong. This can be both to his advantage and disadvantage. It will definitely work against him during matches, as we have often seen.
c) His assistants are crap and can’t offer the advice or assistance Moyes requires and needs.
d) Moyes becomes too engrossed in the game and in the strategy for his team. I have often watched from the Main Stand and from above you can see when subs and changes are needed, but often Moyes is instead giving instructions. He needs to take two steps back and evaluate the whole situation.
Overall I think it is a mixture of B and D, but either way Moyes really has to improve this area of his management skills!
a) Moyes’s assistants are too timid to tell Moyes if a change is needed, for fear of his rather authoritian management style.
b) Moyes ignore assistants advice. We have heard a lot over the years that Moyes is stubborn and very head strong. This can be both to his advantage and disadvantage. It will definitely work against him during matches, as we have often seen.
c) His assistants are crap and can’t offer the advice or assistance Moyes requires and needs.
d) Moyes becomes too engrossed in the game and in the strategy for his team. I have often watched from the Main Stand and from above you can see when subs and changes are needed, but often Moyes is instead giving instructions. He needs to take two steps back and evaluate the whole situation.
Overall I think it is a mixture of B and D, but either way Moyes really has to improve this area of his management skills!
Ian, I didn?t say it was "extremely lucky"; what I said was it was a stunning strike, it looked brilliant... but I was pointing out there was an element of luck about it.
Stop and think for a moment about how many goals Arteta has scored from free-kicks... far fewer than a player with his abilities should have done. That?s what concerns me. Why is it?
If you can calmly analyse the last three he has scored, you might start to see a pattern:
Sunderland (1): Driven hard at the wall, which parts perfectly... Goal!
Sunderland (2): Driven hard at the wall, which blocks it back to him, a brilliant first-time volley... GOAL!
Hull: As he runs in to strike the ball, the wall breaks up and a perfect space develops where a solid and disciplined wall would normally be. Pienaar was close by but not in the critical location where the Hull player broke rank. Fellaini was at least 8 yards behind the wall and played no role in this.
For me, there is an explanation here of why he has not been scoring many before. He was trying to get the ball over the wall and under the bar.... but I don?t think he?s really very good at that ? the one he took near the end yesterday being more typical of the end result. Blackburn is the only one I can remember this season. He?s found more success by driving the ball hard at the wall, rather than trying to get over it. Good for him... but it requires more luck to come off.
This is not criticism or whinging, or finding something negative to say, as a few of our idiotic readers maintain. It?s post match analsyis ? not an opportunity for people to spout uncalled for abuse of those who offer a different viewpoint.
Stop and think for a moment about how many goals Arteta has scored from free-kicks... far fewer than a player with his abilities should have done. That?s what concerns me. Why is it?
If you can calmly analyse the last three he has scored, you might start to see a pattern:
Sunderland (1): Driven hard at the wall, which parts perfectly... Goal!
Sunderland (2): Driven hard at the wall, which blocks it back to him, a brilliant first-time volley... GOAL!
Hull: As he runs in to strike the ball, the wall breaks up and a perfect space develops where a solid and disciplined wall would normally be. Pienaar was close by but not in the critical location where the Hull player broke rank. Fellaini was at least 8 yards behind the wall and played no role in this.
For me, there is an explanation here of why he has not been scoring many before. He was trying to get the ball over the wall and under the bar.... but I don?t think he?s really very good at that ? the one he took near the end yesterday being more typical of the end result. Blackburn is the only one I can remember this season. He?s found more success by driving the ball hard at the wall, rather than trying to get over it. Good for him... but it requires more luck to come off.
This is not criticism or whinging, or finding something negative to say, as a few of our idiotic readers maintain. It?s post match analsyis ? not an opportunity for people to spout uncalled for abuse of those who offer a different viewpoint.
"This is not criticism or whinging, or finding something negative to say, as a few of our idiotic readers maintain"
Funny how your ?idiotic? readers (and contributors for that matter) seem to be getting fewer... or should we really be surprised.
Fuck me... even ?Mr Negativity? Tony Marsh has hung up his keyboard.
"not an opportunity for people to spout uncalled for abuse of those who offer a different viewpoint"
That really takes the biscuit... you might do well to try to live live by your own words.
Funny how your ?idiotic? readers (and contributors for that matter) seem to be getting fewer... or should we really be surprised.
Fuck me... even ?Mr Negativity? Tony Marsh has hung up his keyboard.
"not an opportunity for people to spout uncalled for abuse of those who offer a different viewpoint"
That really takes the biscuit... you might do well to try to live live by your own words.
MIchael you said "with Arteta getting extremely lucky again", QED.
That?s by the by anyway, I wanted Moyes to take him off at half time because the ref was looking to book him all first half, however as a manager you must trust the fact that the player knows this and doesn?t put himself into a position to get booked.
The "foul" which led to a booking was farcical both players were looking at the ball and the defender ducked his head to get the ball, Fellaini?s foot did not conect with the player, who carried on into Fellaini?s leg, how is that a foul?.... yet not a few minutes later the exact same thing happens with Ossie and the ref gestures that Ossie ducked his head down and waves play on... what is the difference?
As I said I thought the best option was to sub him at half-time but I can understand the reasoning behind not doing it, the lad should have been able to keep out of trouble for 15-20 mins and then get subbed.
That?s by the by anyway, I wanted Moyes to take him off at half time because the ref was looking to book him all first half, however as a manager you must trust the fact that the player knows this and doesn?t put himself into a position to get booked.
The "foul" which led to a booking was farcical both players were looking at the ball and the defender ducked his head to get the ball, Fellaini?s foot did not conect with the player, who carried on into Fellaini?s leg, how is that a foul?.... yet not a few minutes later the exact same thing happens with Ossie and the ref gestures that Ossie ducked his head down and waves play on... what is the difference?
As I said I thought the best option was to sub him at half-time but I can understand the reasoning behind not doing it, the lad should have been able to keep out of trouble for 15-20 mins and then get subbed.
Kenrick, I can't understand your definition of abuse. Someone calling you negative or dour or anything of that sort (which is non-profane) is not abuse. Well whether you like it or not, being the editor, you are going to be the lightning rod for comments. And I don't want to pick on you, please you did say extremely lucky. In case you have forgotten, heres the link http://www.toffeeweb.com/season/08-09/comment/mailbag/mailbagitem.asp?submissionID=10401
Second how many players curl a ball from 30 yars out when it is bang in front of goal.. Well Giggs yes (and that too rarely from straight in front of the goalie), I don't remember too many else... Not Ronaldo, nor Lampard or Gerrard and they are the best exponents in england.. So your comments on the quality of this freekick are spot-on wrong.
Also Paul, how can it be a non-decision to keep Felli on, he obviously weighed pros and cons and DECIDED to keep him on. Well we won, Hull did not score and Moyes?s DECISION paid off.
We Evertonians crib and complain when Moyes does not use Rodwell / Gosling / Castillo, now guess what, they have a chance aginst Pool and now we complain that why do they have a chance and Everton is doomed.. Doesn't make sense, eh!!
Second how many players curl a ball from 30 yars out when it is bang in front of goal.. Well Giggs yes (and that too rarely from straight in front of the goalie), I don't remember too many else... Not Ronaldo, nor Lampard or Gerrard and they are the best exponents in england.. So your comments on the quality of this freekick are spot-on wrong.
Also Paul, how can it be a non-decision to keep Felli on, he obviously weighed pros and cons and DECIDED to keep him on. Well we won, Hull did not score and Moyes?s DECISION paid off.
We Evertonians crib and complain when Moyes does not use Rodwell / Gosling / Castillo, now guess what, they have a chance aginst Pool and now we complain that why do they have a chance and Everton is doomed.. Doesn't make sense, eh!!
Michael - with the help of video (ta to MotD) we can see that Hull, for reasons best known to them, set a 4 man wall with players to their right. They jumped but didn’t break. Pienaar added a fifth, and Fellaini stood back effectively making a sixth, obscuring the keeper’s view. As Mikel struck the ball they ’broke’ to left and right (looking for rebounds?) and created the hole Arteta drove the ball through. Hours of work in training I would say. Footballing brains at work at least.
Whatever the Fallaini situation is, he was booked for a non-foul yesterday.
Paul Daly - "six years in, David Moyes has failed to master the intricacies and complexities of substitutions and team adjustments". I might have some sympathy with this, but who does do it well? And where are they now?
Whatever the Fallaini situation is, he was booked for a non-foul yesterday.
Paul Daly - "six years in, David Moyes has failed to master the intricacies and complexities of substitutions and team adjustments". I might have some sympathy with this, but who does do it well? And where are they now?
@ Charlie Peredur,
Get your facts right and don’t post something you just made up.
Believe it or not but Fellaini earns ? 90,000 a week. Don’t know how they can afford it but that’s something you have to ask our chairman.
Get your facts right and don’t post something you just made up.
Believe it or not but Fellaini earns ? 90,000 a week. Don’t know how they can afford it but that’s something you have to ask our chairman.
The important thing yesterday was three points and at 2-0 up in the Prem with a bit left in the game the three points isn?t a given. Fellaini is out for the derby games, big loss. Step up to the plate Castillo ? time to shine.
@Ralph Wetzels, Fellaini does not earn ?90,000 per week..
I would absolutely love to know where you get that figure from.
I would absolutely love to know where you get that figure from.
Arteta has curled the ball over the wall and under the bar from that position before and closer. He just hasn?t done it recently and has found success with the piledriver through the wall. As long as he keeps scoring from free-kicks, I don?t care how he does it!
You make your own luck in football and if playing the odds from deflections or training-ground routines centred around pulling players out of the wall pays dividends, then more power to ?em.
Michael Kenrick, I’ll admit I hadn’t read your match report before typing that were you did call it a stunning free kick, that was my fault. But you did call it extremely lucky in the Fellaini being or rather not being subbed thread yesterday.
The second Sunderland free kick and arguably the first had their elements of luck. However, the one against Blackburn was superb, as was yesterdays as you’ve said. If you recall the one against Man city that struck the bar, which was also an excellent strike. So not counting the second Sunderland goal that puts Arteta on 3 direct free kicks for the season. I’d say that at the very least that puts him on par for season.
However, in the past two seasons I’d agree with you that the strikes against Palace and Villereal were starting to become distant memories. I also dont think it helps for the opposition goalkeepers to know that Arteta will definately take them. Throwing the odd one to Baines might actually improve his odds a little. But I dont want to turn Paul Daly’s thought provoking article into a Arteta thread, so I’ll leave it there.
The second Sunderland free kick and arguably the first had their elements of luck. However, the one against Blackburn was superb, as was yesterdays as you’ve said. If you recall the one against Man city that struck the bar, which was also an excellent strike. So not counting the second Sunderland goal that puts Arteta on 3 direct free kicks for the season. I’d say that at the very least that puts him on par for season.
However, in the past two seasons I’d agree with you that the strikes against Palace and Villereal were starting to become distant memories. I also dont think it helps for the opposition goalkeepers to know that Arteta will definately take them. Throwing the odd one to Baines might actually improve his odds a little. But I dont want to turn Paul Daly’s thought provoking article into a Arteta thread, so I’ll leave it there.
"Not since the waning days of Duncan Ferguson or the days of Rooney has Moyes had a sub to introduce off the bench and change a game."
Hull away- 2-0 down at half time, brought Saha on, he changed the game, had a hand in both goals to draw 2-2.
Hull away- 2-0 down at half time, brought Saha on, he changed the game, had a hand in both goals to draw 2-2.
Varun Rajwade- I have no idea how Moyes reasoned yesterday, but in light of his "(Fellaini) needs to learn how not to get booked" comment, I think a possible scenario was Moyes saying "He’s causing problems, I’ll give him 15-20 more minutes and then will see if we take him off"- deferring the decision is a non-decision.
Keith Glazzard- Mouhrinho makes great adjustments- remember the game at Goodison a few years back- all won by his radical substitutions.
Klinsmann knows how to do it. So does Pep Guardiola......so I reckoned it’s an art that can be learned......... I agree with the poster who said that Moyes reluctance to make changes may be a function of his inate stubborness......
Keith Glazzard- Mouhrinho makes great adjustments- remember the game at Goodison a few years back- all won by his radical substitutions.
Klinsmann knows how to do it. So does Pep Guardiola......so I reckoned it’s an art that can be learned......... I agree with the poster who said that Moyes reluctance to make changes may be a function of his inate stubborness......
Richard Porter- one instance doesn’t disprove my point- Moyes subs rarely if ever change a game.....maybe that’s why he is so reluctant to use them, especially the kids who I would love to see "blooded" more esp. in the late stages of games. I think he his an innately cautious man.....overly so......Maybe it’s the romantic in me, but next week with us two up with fifteen minutes to go and the gobshites streaming out of the toilet that is Anfield wouldn’t you love an Everton manager to throw on a young player with a smile and the words "go on lad make yourself a legend"......never will happen with Moyes.
What do you expect from man who after 3 years of neville in midfield...still plays him there...and moves him from right back just whenever he’s actually putting in some decent performances in the full back position..
My personal favourite Moyes substitution is bringing on yobo with 10 minutes to go against liege....blinding stuff..
But then again we did beat Hull...so I guess being critical is some kind of crime...
My personal favourite Moyes substitution is bringing on yobo with 10 minutes to go against liege....blinding stuff..
But then again we did beat Hull...so I guess being critical is some kind of crime...
Spot on Paul lad, spot on.
It beggars belief that others cannot fathom this point of view.
It beggars belief that others cannot fathom this point of view.
I agrree with you Paul, but then based on his post-match comments.. he put Felli on to avoid what Newcastle did to us and we did to Hull, come from 2-0 down.. So that means he had some logi behind it.. We might disagree with the logic, but denying it occured is not right.. Further, its up to any player to manage himself eventually.. otherwise every yellow card is one foul from a red.. So does the manager sub a player everytime he gets a yellow..
Those who defend Moyes on this are misguided. He is paid over £3m a year to prepare the team for games and to manage the team during games. Despite his good points, he shows a constant failing when it comes to changing the game, or our tactics, when necessary. He performs better when there are fewer decisions to be made.
His first mistake yesterday was to play Fellaini at all. Hull have been in free-fall and quite frankly we could and should beat Hull with one or two changes in the team. Fellaini should, at best, have been on the bench.
Moyes’ second mistake was that, having got to half time with a comfortable lead and, as importantly, with Fellaini clearly walking a tightrope due to several awkward challenges (he could have got a Red for the elbow into the throat, had the linesman seen it) he didn’t count his blessings and sub him for the second half.
Moyes’ own reaction when Fellaini was booked tells you all you need to know. The incident in question was a bit unfair, but it clearly struck Moyes immediately that he’d screwed up and completely unnecessarily.
I’m afraid it was poor judgement and poor tactics to risk such an important player in a game that we’d already won, and for which we had good young reinforcements on the bench. Moyes seems almost singularly incapable of changing a team to adapt to circumstances, either before or during a game. It doesn’t lessen his achievements, far from it. It just makes you contemplate how much more sucessfull he might be if he had the wherewithall to call the shots correctly when required to do so.
I just wonder if, how & when the likes of Jutkiewicz, Agard, Kissock & Rodwell will get meaningful opportunities. It would have been good to see 2 or 3 of them against Macclesfield, with the regulars on the bench just in case. But I know it will never happen.
We are now going along nicely. So credit where it’s due. But is it really too much to ask that the manager is able to "manage" a player like Fellaini by now so gets fewer stupid bookings (he’s had 10!), and also not to risk him when there are major & obvious consequences.
So, marks for the season for DM?
- Aug to October, 2/10 & get a fucking grip.
- Oct to now 8/10 but could do even better.
His first mistake yesterday was to play Fellaini at all. Hull have been in free-fall and quite frankly we could and should beat Hull with one or two changes in the team. Fellaini should, at best, have been on the bench.
Moyes’ second mistake was that, having got to half time with a comfortable lead and, as importantly, with Fellaini clearly walking a tightrope due to several awkward challenges (he could have got a Red for the elbow into the throat, had the linesman seen it) he didn’t count his blessings and sub him for the second half.
Moyes’ own reaction when Fellaini was booked tells you all you need to know. The incident in question was a bit unfair, but it clearly struck Moyes immediately that he’d screwed up and completely unnecessarily.
I’m afraid it was poor judgement and poor tactics to risk such an important player in a game that we’d already won, and for which we had good young reinforcements on the bench. Moyes seems almost singularly incapable of changing a team to adapt to circumstances, either before or during a game. It doesn’t lessen his achievements, far from it. It just makes you contemplate how much more sucessfull he might be if he had the wherewithall to call the shots correctly when required to do so.
I just wonder if, how & when the likes of Jutkiewicz, Agard, Kissock & Rodwell will get meaningful opportunities. It would have been good to see 2 or 3 of them against Macclesfield, with the regulars on the bench just in case. But I know it will never happen.
We are now going along nicely. So credit where it’s due. But is it really too much to ask that the manager is able to "manage" a player like Fellaini by now so gets fewer stupid bookings (he’s had 10!), and also not to risk him when there are major & obvious consequences.
So, marks for the season for DM?
- Aug to October, 2/10 & get a fucking grip.
- Oct to now 8/10 but could do even better.
Pat Nevin praised Moyes’ ability to use subs to change games in the post-Liege analysis.
I think the complaint that sometimes he brings kids on for the last 30 seconds is fair but often he is looking to give the player coming off a bit of a confidence boost i.e. Artera yesterday.
And he’s offered an explanation for not subbing Flan-genie
I think the complaint that sometimes he brings kids on for the last 30 seconds is fair but often he is looking to give the player coming off a bit of a confidence boost i.e. Artera yesterday.
And he’s offered an explanation for not subbing Flan-genie
I wouldn’t be so generous Alan...I can’t actually find one thing to give Moyes credit for over the last while..
The team has virtually picked itself...and anything that has been in Moyes ambit...has been done with varying degrees of incompetence..
8/10 for the team..not for Moyes..
The team has virtually picked itself...and anything that has been in Moyes ambit...has been done with varying degrees of incompetence..
8/10 for the team..not for Moyes..
Paul Daly - I asked my question because I don’t know how to reliably judge which coach substitutes well or badly. I remember that the media dubbed Mourinho as a meddler for the number of changes he made. I guess that the majority of these were successful because his record was good, but we’ll never know if the results would have been the same without them. They might have been better.
Of course Moyes is unadventurous. He has built a top six team on solid foundations. As we can now see, this applies to the midfield as well as defence. If he was an inspirational genius on top of this - a touch of the Brian Clough - nobody would believe a word he said.
Of course Moyes is unadventurous. He has built a top six team on solid foundations. As we can now see, this applies to the midfield as well as defence. If he was an inspirational genius on top of this - a touch of the Brian Clough - nobody would believe a word he said.
The biggest problem, is that Moyes is very reluctant to throw subs on to change a game as long as it is still 0-0. There has been plenty of times were the game has been crying out for a change of player/ players, tactics, but as I said, as long as the game is still 0-0 he is happy to just keep it as it is. He only makes the changes when we have gone behind, and chasing the game, and sometimes it is too late by then. It always seems to be the opposing manager who makes the first move when we are involved in drab games, even when we are at home.
I can see both sides of this one. However my view is that it was folly not to expect at least one more foul during the second half. I accept the ’foul’ for the booking wasn’t a foul but I’m absolutely certain that another real foul wasn’t going to be long in coming hence a yellow in any case.
What really annoys me is this guy just cannot help persistent fouling. It took him 14 minutes to rack up 4 fouls and receipt a verbal warning from the ref - 14 minutes!!! Someone earlier said he should learn from this - well he is showing precious little ability to learn - don’t forget this was his 10th booking in 18 games! I wouldn’t mind so much if his fouls were real clean outs, but most of them are nonsense little clips and pulls.
He really must learn and we must recognise that ultimately it is he who is letting us down, not Moyes.
What really annoys me is this guy just cannot help persistent fouling. It took him 14 minutes to rack up 4 fouls and receipt a verbal warning from the ref - 14 minutes!!! Someone earlier said he should learn from this - well he is showing precious little ability to learn - don’t forget this was his 10th booking in 18 games! I wouldn’t mind so much if his fouls were real clean outs, but most of them are nonsense little clips and pulls.
He really must learn and we must recognise that ultimately it is he who is letting us down, not Moyes.
Alan Kirwan- "Moyes seems almost singularly incapable of changing a team to adapt to circumstances, either before or during a game. It doesn?t lessen his achievements, far from it. It just makes you contemplate how much more sucessfull he might be if he had the wherewithall to call the shots correctly when required to do so." That’s the argument in a nutshell- the other question is how much his perceived personality traits- stubborness, headstrong- come into play here and whether he should be more malleable. Someone mentioned the influence or lack thereof of the assistants- I’d love to know how much imput they actually have......
Living in New Zealand i have to rely on TV or the web for my Everton addiction. I have been a blue for 50 years and i often moan like most old timers "it wasnt like that in my day"What I saw yesterday highlighted how right I am. The advantage of watching a Game on TV is you can replay it over again and pick up stuff that are not always apparent.
Just prior to half-time, Phil Brown was shown talking to the fourth official and pointing to Screech and counting out the number of fouls he had committed. It is obvious that that same fourth official has spoken to the referee at half time and he was looking to book Fellaini the first opportunity he had. This is supported by the fact it took less than 90 seconds into the half to book him for what was a petty excuse, and the referee made much of the fact it was for repeat offending.
In saying that, I believe he was lucky to stay on the park in the first half. He was forced out of Belgian football because he felt hounded by referees. But if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it's a bloody duck! If he does not modify his style when challenging (particularly in the air), he will spend half a season suspended. I would have taken him off and give young Gosling another blooding. Still it's all done and dusted now so come on Davie, get his technique right as I truly believe he is one of the best buys this club has made in years. COYB
Ciaran, do you know what? I think you constantly slagging and belittleing our manager is a crime. David Moyes is not perfect, far from it. Like everyone else he makes bad decisions but he also makes good ones. Do us all a favour and put your energy into giving your team an manager some credit for their recent turn around in form. I think they deserve it.
Lewis,
Did you conveniently skip the bit were I gave the team 8/10?? The point of my post was that the team are playing well irrespective of Moyes?s decisions... which are farcical at times, lacking any credible dynamism.
But I suppose the facts wouldn?t really matter to someone who thinks having an opinion is a crime.
Did you conveniently skip the bit were I gave the team 8/10?? The point of my post was that the team are playing well irrespective of Moyes?s decisions... which are farcical at times, lacking any credible dynamism.
But I suppose the facts wouldn?t really matter to someone who thinks having an opinion is a crime.
Making a substitution when a goal is urgently needed or to replace an injured player needs no great football nous. The real art of using subs and what Moyes has yet to demonstrate is doing it when the need to break a stalemate becomes obvious. Moyes usually waits until the situation has gone beyond redemption.
When the team plays shite, it's Moyes?s fault; when it plays well, it's in spite of Moyes, according to some on here. Fellaini got himself booked yesterday and should have been sent off in the 1st half. None of this is Moyes?s fault. I?ve been more critical of Moyes this year than I ever have been but yesterday he did the right thing. We needed a win yesterday as, no matter what team we put out against Liverpool, they will be heavy favourites to win. With our luck he would have not played Fellaini and he?d have got an injury in training during the week.
There was no ?dithering? or ?non-decision? from Moyes. He made a clear decision to keep Fellaini on the field in the second half. Of course his calculated gamble did not pay off. Presumably he would have played him until 60-70 minutes and then subbed him to protect him from a booking as the odds of losing the game continuously lessened.
Indeed, the game far from won by half time, and the three points were not secured by then. Therefore, at the time I believe Moyes made the correct decision to keep the influential Fellaini on regardless of the potential but uncertain consequences of getting suspended for the derbies. Any type of rotation like this is a bad idea ? as an example, look at the RS last night leaving two of their best stikers on the bench.
To be honest, Ciaran, I didn't see your second post until I'd posted my comment, so well done for giving some credit.
I wouldn't call your constant slagging and belittleing of Moyes an opinion, I?d call it personal hatred.
Look Ciaran, I know you're entitled to say what you want but in my opinion you go way over the top when slagging off Moyes and I think it's out of order and becoming boring.
Just so you know Ciaran, I?d like to give you my opinion on Moyes. I think Moyes is the right man for us, I think he?s done a very good job since becoming our manager. Most notably getting the best out of our players when us fans are fearing a crisis and everyone else have wrote us off but in no way do I think the sun shines out of his arse. He has made many mistakes in his time and I have criticised him many times. I think his substitutions are a big weakness and not having enough in his locker when it comes to tactics is too.
I wouldn't call your constant slagging and belittleing of Moyes an opinion, I?d call it personal hatred.
Look Ciaran, I know you're entitled to say what you want but in my opinion you go way over the top when slagging off Moyes and I think it's out of order and becoming boring.
Just so you know Ciaran, I?d like to give you my opinion on Moyes. I think Moyes is the right man for us, I think he?s done a very good job since becoming our manager. Most notably getting the best out of our players when us fans are fearing a crisis and everyone else have wrote us off but in no way do I think the sun shines out of his arse. He has made many mistakes in his time and I have criticised him many times. I think his substitutions are a big weakness and not having enough in his locker when it comes to tactics is too.
This is the busiest I have seen Toffeeweb, lots of accusations, questions and debates; a bit of bad temper and buckets of passion. Fantastic, the lads must be doing something right on the park to cause so much excitement. Four crunch games next; it?s a great time to be a blue.
P.S I thought Kenrick & Lloyde worked their normal good fan bad fan routine very well. Fantastic website.
P.S I thought Kenrick & Lloyde worked their normal good fan bad fan routine very well. Fantastic website.
Sure Moyes could have taken him off after the second goal. Fellaini is playing like a raw amateur so why not play some of those we have on the bench so they can mature? There is no doubt Fellaini has skills and is very tall to boot but at this stage he is a liability who needs more coaching in the Premier League way of doing things. He was lucky to escape in the first minute with an incident against Zayatte although Zayette was provoking throughout the match. Then he got a strong warning about a deliberate ankle tap which was just so obvious but he still did not take heed. Perhaps a spell in the reserves may give him some time to ponder his crazy ways or at £16 million is he above that?
Ciaran: You?re a hard bastard to please! I think we agree on Fellaini, it was simply crass judgement by a man on over £3m a year to believe that Fellaini could go the whole of a 2nd half without risking a booking. Particularly given events of the 1st half, the fact that he should have got a red, and the fact that he had 9 cards already.
It?s unfair to suggest that all good things happen in spite of Moyes. Some do, for sure. But he is not as devoid of virtue as you would have us believe.
John Martin made the point rather well. It can?t be all Moyes? fault when things are bad, and none of his fault when things are good. The players do, now, at last, seem to want to play for him again. I wasn?t so sure of that for the early past of the season (and quite rightly).
There is no way a team can defend so well and concede so few goals (as we did last season, and are now doing again) without effective input from the coaching staff. If nothing else, that resolute defence is down to Moyes.
I think the time to judge is May. If, by some crazy happenstance, we finish 4th (which is not beyond the bounds of possibility) then what do we do? Who do we credit? Will Moyes have no responsibility at all for that? Even 6th isn?t a disgrace, given our resources.
I am less inclined to swap Moyes now than I was in Aug-Oct, simply because I can?t see obviously better candidates.
It?s unfair to suggest that all good things happen in spite of Moyes. Some do, for sure. But he is not as devoid of virtue as you would have us believe.
John Martin made the point rather well. It can?t be all Moyes? fault when things are bad, and none of his fault when things are good. The players do, now, at last, seem to want to play for him again. I wasn?t so sure of that for the early past of the season (and quite rightly).
There is no way a team can defend so well and concede so few goals (as we did last season, and are now doing again) without effective input from the coaching staff. If nothing else, that resolute defence is down to Moyes.
I think the time to judge is May. If, by some crazy happenstance, we finish 4th (which is not beyond the bounds of possibility) then what do we do? Who do we credit? Will Moyes have no responsibility at all for that? Even 6th isn?t a disgrace, given our resources.
I am less inclined to swap Moyes now than I was in Aug-Oct, simply because I can?t see obviously better candidates.
Kevin, I think we?ve had this discussion before. Those offering up their opinions on the game are welcome; alternate views are also welcome. But those whose main intention is to fling insults and abuse in denigrating the opinions of others are not welcome.
Perhaps it?s too fine a line for you to differentiate, but you?ll be relieved to know you are not the one who makes that call.
Perhaps it?s too fine a line for you to differentiate, but you?ll be relieved to know you are not the one who makes that call.
Paul Daly - Moyes?s substitutions frustrate me also, none more than the famous one versus spurs at Goodison, but in the interests of fairness we should acknowledge that he has got it right a few times (albeit not often enough) ? the most memorable being Kharkiv away.
Varun, you need to take your blinkers off. It was clearly an inept piece of managing by Moyes and he needs to stop being reactive and learn to become proactive.
No one would have criticised Moyes for taking Fellaini off as everyone would have known the reason behind it. Why was it that everyone at the ground held their breath every time the big fella went near the ball in the end as they knew he was one step closer to gettting the card.
Why Moyes couldn?t see that has me stuffed!
No one would have criticised Moyes for taking Fellaini off as everyone would have known the reason behind it. Why was it that everyone at the ground held their breath every time the big fella went near the ball in the end as they knew he was one step closer to gettting the card.
Why Moyes couldn?t see that has me stuffed!
Paul Daly you talk of other managers such as Mouhrinho that could make substitutions that would change games, these managers you mention had very good squads, Mourinho and Chelsea had a multi-milion pound bench to pick from full of proven match winners.
Moyes on the other had has unproven kids or proven crap at best to pick from unless the forever injured Vaughan and Saha are available, so I don't blame him one bit for not making chages that would only weaken the side.
Moyes on the other had has unproven kids or proven crap at best to pick from unless the forever injured Vaughan and Saha are available, so I don't blame him one bit for not making chages that would only weaken the side.
Seamus Murphy ? yes, I certainly would acknowledge there are many good things about the Moyes regime and even if he has got substitutes right in the past, it is definitely one of the weaker aspects of his game. It seems many people on the thread, yourself included, acknowledge that. And without wishing to open a whole other can of worms, I far prefer Moyes to jobsworths like Megson or Allardyce or any number of ex-players who would line up to replace him if he left.
Ian Tunny, I can get with your point about Mourinho and his huge squad, but you have to know how to use them don?t you? I think Moyes puts out his best available eleven every game then looks at the bench and is lost. Maybe Gosling or Baxter or Rodwell have the making of a super sub in them but, unless forced to use them by injury or we are deep into the second half, Moyes will not use them. My question is why??? Sure I wouldn?t want to weaken a side, but there are times we chase the game, times when nothing is working, times when we are flat ? aren?t they the times to change things and shake ?em up. Moyes I believe is most reluctant to use subs in that way.
Just in case anyone has forgotten ? we won on Saturday and gained 3 points in our push for European football. But since everyone else just seems to be pre-occupied with a substitution which didn?t happen, cheer up ? Fellaini will be available for the games against Arsenal and Man Utd.
Yes, maybe I have blinkers agreed. But my blinkered vision tells me that the only way to getting CL is to win games. You do not get extra points for defeating Liverpool. And agreed, we may not be good enough to defeat Liverpool without Fellaini, but then are we good enough to defeat Arse and Man U without him either? That's 2 EPL games = 6 points; Liverpool is 1 EPL game = 3 points.
All I say is before people slag off Moyes as an inept tactician, who cannot think, please maybe think of the argument I made above, are we good enough to beat Arsenal (our main rival) and the undisputed champions of football Man U away without Fellaini? Maybe the fact that I am not a Scouser, and have never lived within 3000 miles of Liverpool, may reduce my passion for the derby and help me get a calmer perspective. But for me, Liverpool is not the most important game and Liverpool in the FA Cup most certainly is one of my least imporrtant games. Ask Redknapp what matter, cup or EPL? So within my blinkered vision, I am happy that we have him out against Liverpool and not against Arsenal...
All I say is before people slag off Moyes as an inept tactician, who cannot think, please maybe think of the argument I made above, are we good enough to beat Arsenal (our main rival) and the undisputed champions of football Man U away without Fellaini? Maybe the fact that I am not a Scouser, and have never lived within 3000 miles of Liverpool, may reduce my passion for the derby and help me get a calmer perspective. But for me, Liverpool is not the most important game and Liverpool in the FA Cup most certainly is one of my least imporrtant games. Ask Redknapp what matter, cup or EPL? So within my blinkered vision, I am happy that we have him out against Liverpool and not against Arsenal...
Screech was always gonna get another booking... either on Saturday or at Anfield... you only get 3 points for winning ..whoever you play...
Our shitty start was down to lack of fit, experienced players... not down to "dithering".
Now we are seeing the "real Everton". LFC looked awful on Saturday and I believe we will draw 0-0 in the league and grab a 1-0 win in the cup... Rafa is shitting bricks over United and Stevie me is looking forward to his court case...
Our shitty start was down to lack of fit, experienced players... not down to "dithering".
Now we are seeing the "real Everton". LFC looked awful on Saturday and I believe we will draw 0-0 in the league and grab a 1-0 win in the cup... Rafa is shitting bricks over United and Stevie me is looking forward to his court case...
Hindsight. The best tool in the box.
Imagine the shite that would?ve been thrown had we gone on to turn 3 points into 1 from a 2 goal leading position ala Newcastle.
Moyes has said the decision to leave Lurch on the pitch was a conscious one. The fact that our man got booked makes it arguable that it was perhaps the wrong decision ? but either way it was nothing to do with dithering. I am often vociferous in my criticism of David Moyes?, but it seems that sometimes the man just cannot win.
Imagine the shite that would?ve been thrown had we gone on to turn 3 points into 1 from a 2 goal leading position ala Newcastle.
Moyes has said the decision to leave Lurch on the pitch was a conscious one. The fact that our man got booked makes it arguable that it was perhaps the wrong decision ? but either way it was nothing to do with dithering. I am often vociferous in my criticism of David Moyes?, but it seems that sometimes the man just cannot win.
I think this is unfair. Fellaini had a hand (or head) in both goals and was doing a fairly decent job pinning the Hull back, thereby helping out the overall defence. I would also have played him for the first 10-15 mins of the 2nd half to weather the storm of a Hull comeback (however improbable it may be). No doubt a quality player and will be missed.
If we?re relying on Fellaini to win us the derbies then we?re not looking at the root problem: the players who have been here longer than him need to fucking stand up for themselves for a change. That is everyone but Cahill!
If we?re relying on Fellaini to win us the derbies then we?re not looking at the root problem: the players who have been here longer than him need to fucking stand up for themselves for a change. That is everyone but Cahill!
Lewis,
If you think criticising Moyes is ?pure hatred? - then you?ve led a very sheltered life.
Alan,
I agree with everything you say, and would give the man credit when he deserves it... but I can?t find a single good managerial decision that Moyes has made lately. Even the defence point you make is a little precarious... we are now playing our best back line... and why are we doing it? Because Moyes made the decision? No, because Yobo got injured and Baines finally got a chance.
And then we have decisions like putting Neville back into midfield... Is that good management?
Credit where credit is due of course.... but I simply can?t see any due at the moment. That's not hatred, Lewis ? that?s realism.
If you think criticising Moyes is ?pure hatred? - then you?ve led a very sheltered life.
Alan,
I agree with everything you say, and would give the man credit when he deserves it... but I can?t find a single good managerial decision that Moyes has made lately. Even the defence point you make is a little precarious... we are now playing our best back line... and why are we doing it? Because Moyes made the decision? No, because Yobo got injured and Baines finally got a chance.
And then we have decisions like putting Neville back into midfield... Is that good management?
Credit where credit is due of course.... but I simply can?t see any due at the moment. That's not hatred, Lewis ? that?s realism.
Hi Paul - great to read a critique of Moyes that is considered and fair. I agree that his use of subs could improve dramatically.
However, in this instance (and so many others too numerous to mention), Dave Randles (a couple of posts above) has hit the nail on the head. There is no way we can write this sort of piece before the game ? it has to come after, when we know what?s happened, and how Moyes has ?got it wrong? again.
So often posters (in general) are actively looking for the negatives, and whilst there certainly are some ? I for one am still trying to forgive Moyes for the autumn ? it occasionally blinds you to the good stuff. Two defeats in 14 is it? An (inevitable) booking for Fellaini doesn?t eclipse that.
However, in this instance (and so many others too numerous to mention), Dave Randles (a couple of posts above) has hit the nail on the head. There is no way we can write this sort of piece before the game ? it has to come after, when we know what?s happened, and how Moyes has ?got it wrong? again.
So often posters (in general) are actively looking for the negatives, and whilst there certainly are some ? I for one am still trying to forgive Moyes for the autumn ? it occasionally blinds you to the good stuff. Two defeats in 14 is it? An (inevitable) booking for Fellaini doesn?t eclipse that.
Paul Daly - good article, I think me and you are singing from the same hymn sheet re Mr Moyes... it is a pity regarding his limitations because basically he has many fine qualities.
Ciaran,
you seem to be using Phil Neville a lot in your "anti-Moyes" rants. Anyone who has watched the last 5-6 matches will tell you Neville has been one of the better players and it?s no coincidence that Arteta is also playing so well with Pip alongside. Using this as an anti-Moyes rant just shows how ill-informed you are on matters Everton!!!
you seem to be using Phil Neville a lot in your "anti-Moyes" rants. Anyone who has watched the last 5-6 matches will tell you Neville has been one of the better players and it?s no coincidence that Arteta is also playing so well with Pip alongside. Using this as an anti-Moyes rant just shows how ill-informed you are on matters Everton!!!
The Anti-DM brigade are really clutching at straws now. If he had taken Fellaini off at 2-0 and we were then to give up the lead for whatever reason, Moyes would?ve been strung up for tinkering and not having the balls to take risks. He instead leaves Fellaini to make his own judgement on how to play and unfortunately he is booked. However, he would?ve got booked against Liverpool in at least one of those games thereby missing Arse and Man Utd. So DM simply cannot win. 6th place in the bag with again, virtually no net spend, and poor backing from the Chairman. Well done, Davey.
To pick up a few points made earlier, and add a couple of my own:-
We?ve got four big games coming up, and Fellaini was inevitably going to be suspended for two, regardless of any substitution. Indeed, assuming he couldn?t possibly have got through the first derby game without getting booked, he was always going to miss at least one game against Liverpool (assuming I understand the suspension rules correctly). Yes, I?d marginally have preferred him to be subbed at half time, but it?s really not worth making a lot of fuss about, and certainly not sufficient justificatuion to slag off the manager.
With regard to Moyes?s substitutions, thankfully he doesn?t now respond to drawing at home by introducing a fourth full back to the team, so that?s some kind of improvement. Also, usually we?re starting with the best 11 players, and there?s generally nobody on the bench who you?d bet on to change things dramatically. For instance, if we?ve already got Yakubu and Saha on, swapping Anichebe for one of them, on putting on anyone else from the bench (with the possible exception of a fit, motivated VDM) would probably reduce the chances of scoring, rather than increase it. So, no real reason to hammer Moyes there, then.
My own grouse with Moyes?s substitutions is that, when we?re on the verge of getting a result against a top team, you can quite clearly see that one or two of our midfielders are completely knackered with 15/20 minutes to go, yet Moyes will never bring on any fresh legs until after we concede a goal. Overall, though, I can?t see that this blind spot, irritating as it may be, is sufficient for the kind of flak he gets from some people.
We?ve got four big games coming up, and Fellaini was inevitably going to be suspended for two, regardless of any substitution. Indeed, assuming he couldn?t possibly have got through the first derby game without getting booked, he was always going to miss at least one game against Liverpool (assuming I understand the suspension rules correctly). Yes, I?d marginally have preferred him to be subbed at half time, but it?s really not worth making a lot of fuss about, and certainly not sufficient justificatuion to slag off the manager.
With regard to Moyes?s substitutions, thankfully he doesn?t now respond to drawing at home by introducing a fourth full back to the team, so that?s some kind of improvement. Also, usually we?re starting with the best 11 players, and there?s generally nobody on the bench who you?d bet on to change things dramatically. For instance, if we?ve already got Yakubu and Saha on, swapping Anichebe for one of them, on putting on anyone else from the bench (with the possible exception of a fit, motivated VDM) would probably reduce the chances of scoring, rather than increase it. So, no real reason to hammer Moyes there, then.
My own grouse with Moyes?s substitutions is that, when we?re on the verge of getting a result against a top team, you can quite clearly see that one or two of our midfielders are completely knackered with 15/20 minutes to go, yet Moyes will never bring on any fresh legs until after we concede a goal. Overall, though, I can?t see that this blind spot, irritating as it may be, is sufficient for the kind of flak he gets from some people.
Dave,
I'm on the record in stating that Neville was starting to really impressing in right back... and hey presto, Moyes thinks this is an indication he has suddenly developed into a midfielder, negating the entire learning process (if there is one ) of the last threee years... The logic on that escapes me.
Anyone who says that Neville has played well in midfield is either blind, or easily pleased.
You will of course forgive me for wanting better than him in such a crucial position....
I'm on the record in stating that Neville was starting to really impressing in right back... and hey presto, Moyes thinks this is an indication he has suddenly developed into a midfielder, negating the entire learning process (if there is one ) of the last threee years... The logic on that escapes me.
Anyone who says that Neville has played well in midfield is either blind, or easily pleased.
You will of course forgive me for wanting better than him in such a crucial position....
Dominic Fitzpatrick wrote "Paul Merson called that free kick ?Ronaldo-esque? More would have been made of it if it was Ronaldo connecting with it".
At least it makes a change from Beckham-esque that we had to endure for far too long. For me, a superbly taken free kick will always be Sheedy-esque !!
At least it makes a change from Beckham-esque that we had to endure for far too long. For me, a superbly taken free kick will always be Sheedy-esque !!
May be it's as well that Screech can?t play in the two games against Liverpool.... you know what normally happens, the Red Shite often get one of our players unjustly sent off. Probably the target would have been Screech ? this way he only misses two games not three!!!
Ian Tunny - spot on, I lose count how many times I hear about the "mastery of substitutions" of the likes of Mourinho. I?d like to see how masterful they?d be if they had a bench full of 17-year-old kids from the academy rather than £25m world-class wingers and strikers to bring on.
What we are starting with is ALL we have, it isn?t as though anyone is actually able to suggest the changes they believe Moyes should be making just that he should be making some change, any change. I blame it on too much Championship Manager.
Given the problems Fellaini could have caused the Liverpool defence, I think Moyes was wrong not to withdraw him at half-time; however, I don?t think Moyes can be very criticised for his general substitution tactics or lack of them.
A couple of years ago, some football statistician examined all the tactical substitutions made in one season in one of the leagues/divisions (I forget which) and what influence the substitutions made to the eventual match outcome, and if I remember correctly, he concluded that making no substitution normally proved the better choice. Apparently, the statistics showed that teams more often lose the thread when tactical substitutions are made, rather than they benefit.
This might be why successful substitutions stand out in the memory so much ? because they are contrary to the ?rule?.
A couple of years ago, some football statistician examined all the tactical substitutions made in one season in one of the leagues/divisions (I forget which) and what influence the substitutions made to the eventual match outcome, and if I remember correctly, he concluded that making no substitution normally proved the better choice. Apparently, the statistics showed that teams more often lose the thread when tactical substitutions are made, rather than they benefit.
This might be why successful substitutions stand out in the memory so much ? because they are contrary to the ?rule?.
This is for Mr Kenrick.... The Arteta freekick had several things you totally missed in it.... if you watch the replay from behind the ball you see the wall part because an Everton player is there. That?s number one. Number two is the Big Guy?s role. You totally missed it. He is standing in the vision of the ?keeper and moves out of the way as the kick is being taken, therefore obstructing the view of the ?keeper. And thirdly, the ball moves at the end with such swerve it defies physics.
Clyde, I did see those points and you are right, they all contributed to Arteta?s stunning strike hitting the back of the net. I think Fellaini?s movement may have been more important once the ball was through the wall but my point was about it getting through the wall. I think it is the Hull player far right (looking from behind) who does the biz for us by breaking both forward and right as Arteta runs in. Pienaar had peeled away long before this, and my replay doesn?t really show him being in the position where the ball traversed the line of the wall. The next most vital ingredient was a sweet strike form Arteta, which has been all too rare. But I disagree with you on one thing: I?m sure it was all pure physics... the Coriolis Effect I think it?s called...
May main point remains: he bangs them in the wall, or over the wall and over the bar. If he bangs them in the wall, then the only way they go in is if the wall breaks up... or kindly returns the ball with interest (a la Sunderland.
May main point remains: he bangs them in the wall, or over the wall and over the bar. If he bangs them in the wall, then the only way they go in is if the wall breaks up... or kindly returns the ball with interest (a la Sunderland.
Ciaran, I belong to the clan of Everton fans who are "easily pleased" 'cause I think Neville has done a great job in the middle. As a defensive mid, his job is to break up play and since he has played there, we have conceded no goals in 7 matches against some quality opposition attackwise. Chelsea, Spurs, City, Sunderland and to a lesser extent Hull are good attacking units. I do not mention Boro and Macca Town but the other 5 have some potent strikers. So clearly he has done a job. He is not skillful, and certainly not the best, but he has helped not concede. That's his task and he has done it, so is it fair to criticise him?
Ciaran
Your assessment of Neville in midfield is ridiculous. On saturday and throughout this run he has been brilliant. He covers for both fullbacks allowing them to get forward. He was like a magnet whenever Hull made a clearence or tried to break, taking control of the ball and setting us back on the attack. I remember him being very effective playing there for Man U for almost a full season when Keane was injured.
Your assessment of Neville in midfield is ridiculous. On saturday and throughout this run he has been brilliant. He covers for both fullbacks allowing them to get forward. He was like a magnet whenever Hull made a clearence or tried to break, taking control of the ball and setting us back on the attack. I remember him being very effective playing there for Man U for almost a full season when Keane was injured.
Right,
So my assessment is ridiculous yet you’ll offer half a season playing with world class players as evidence of Nevilles suitability for that position...
You’re obviously sleeping for the last 3 years..perhaps we should give jags another go there...
So my assessment is ridiculous yet you’ll offer half a season playing with world class players as evidence of Nevilles suitability for that position...
You’re obviously sleeping for the last 3 years..perhaps we should give jags another go there...
Michael...well done.
But, I?m amazed at the physics of the kick. It is going a zillion miles an hour and all of a sudden it goes left? Can those who can strike a ball explain how that works, for I have no idea. What does the taker of the kick actually do to make it react in such a manner?
But, I?m amazed at the physics of the kick. It is going a zillion miles an hour and all of a sudden it goes left? Can those who can strike a ball explain how that works, for I have no idea. What does the taker of the kick actually do to make it react in such a manner?
Jags was lost in centre mid, Neville is not. He understands the demands of the role and has good positional sense. There was a period last season when he was rushing passes, and giving the ball away, or humping it long but his form is better now possibly because those in front of him are demanding the ball and giving him plenty of options.
Clyde, I believe it’s to do with the velocity, angle and component of sideways motion of that kicking foot, relative to the mid-point of the ball. With a firmly driven shot like that, I believe it was struck slightly to the right and a little bit below the mid-point, imparting mostly left-hand spin with a little bit of backspin. The velocity was good and hard, which kept it on a pretty flat trajectory initially until it neared the goal.
It flies pretty straight while the forward motion dominates but the velocity is dropping all the time due to air resistance, and at a certain point, the Coriolis effect starts to exert itself more because the rate of spin does not drop off in the same way as the forward velocity. I believe it’s at that point where the ball appears to vere to the side.
Our Mikey of course went though all the calcs in his head during his run-up... Or he just wellied it.
Arteta has only started wellying it since Stubbs came in as coach. Stubbs was the master of hoofing a freekick into the wall or row X. Occasionally though away at Stoke in the cup or home to Man U they went in. He’s obviously had a word with Arteta.
Stubbs giving technical advice to Arteta?? Now I’ve heard it all...
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1 Posted 11/01/2009 at 15:32:44
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It wasn't too long ago when you lot were slating Moyes for signing a lanky streak of piss that had blown our entire transfer budget. Wake up and realise that players do get suspensions and the only consolation to me about what happened yesterday is Fellaini gave a player (Turner) a DOUBLE ELBOW during a corner and should have been SENT OFF.
Is that Moyes fault too? Anyway we can beat the red shite with or without him, he is not our be all and end all. Our football club has always been about TEAM SPIRIT, not a one-man band.
Anyway I'll prepare my shield and armour!!