The thing I find ironic about this is the fact that Robert Elstone (who I quite like to be honest) slams LCC for ignoring the council planning committee and stating that no planning rules have been broken, while at the same time the club are ignoring every planning rule in the book in the hope we can build a new stadium in Kirkby. So, in other words, planning rules only exist when it suits them!

Ped,

When exactly did we apply for permission to build on Stanley Park?

We didn?t.

Ciaran,
Something I remembered from The Echo a number of years back... not that my memory is the best but I do remember something along those lines - pretty sure we at least enquired but was told it was a no go because it was a park. Can’t remember the year but will try to find something on it.

Ped,

It is now common knowledge that we didn?t file a planning application. If you believe the boardroom rumours (which is something for braver people than me), we made an enquiry and we?re rebuffed...

I don?t believe a word of it...

Unfortunately the FOI act cannot be used to substantiate informal chats.

I don?t think an extra £6 miilion a year based on a hoped-for 15,000 per game increase in attendance will be enough ?for the future of the club and our ability to stay competitive somewhere close to the current market?. Oh... hang on, forgot, we?ll be more attractive to the Arabs, won?t we?

I think there was an informal enquiry about Stanley Park a long time ago, it may have been prior to Agent Johnson?s time.

I don?t see us sharing with our neighbours, I also don?t see us having the money to move to Kirkby, even if Permission is granted. Apparently that decision won?t be known until May at the earliest (which probably means it won?t be known until Christmas).

You can?t blame LCC for making life difficult for us as they have to ensure that Liverpool One remains the flagship of the region. Liverpool One... Everton First and Foremost!

Ciarán McGlone: Ped is right, we did enquire about it years ago, before Kings Dock. I remember all the reports back then plus it does make sense, Stanley Park would have been the first area we would have tried.

I now say forget Liverpool City Council, they are trying to slow us down every way they can. For me they are clearly biased towards The RS, the more they keep us down the bigger The RS will be in the area.

It seems to me that voting councillors in should be based on if they support Everton, maybe we would get a fair crack.

It?s too late for all that now, I have changed my mind about Kirkby, I now think this our best option forward.

Or the fact they are actually blue and know what a complete and utter shit move this would be and in fact are helping us out.

Oh and wait a minute ? who where the ones trying to help us get the Kings Dock? Oh right, yeah... Knowelsy Council, that's why they are helping us now, glad we got the facts out there. Those bastards at LCC trying to ruin all the good that our current board are doing, it's disgusting!

Not sure we ever did actually submit planning permision to the council about Stanley Park before the Shite, but why don't we apply now???? I'm sure there is plenty space for two stadiums, that would be unique, I cant think of anywhere that there are two rival football stadia right next to each other!!

http://inquiry.knowsley.gov.uk/Proof%20of%20Evidence/KEIOC%20A%201%20Appendix%201%20-%20Rebuilding%20Goodison.pdf

Ok this proves nothing but section 6 touches on it. Wish I had more, sorry.

Anyway - my point being that I have changed my mind about moving to Kirkby.

We should fight fight fight with all our might for the boys in the royal blue jersey... and to remain in the city and at Goodision or Stanley Park - exactly where we should be!! We have been shafted too many time... enough is enough.

Ciaran

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Goodison

This says that council records show that we NEVER made a formal enquiry about Stanley Park.

Conflicting information then - and yes Anthony, I agree we should do. It makes no sense... but we still should cause as much shit as we can just to stop the RS if nothing else.

I dislike Liverpool FC more than any other team in the land. For certain they pissed on our fireworks in '85. I believe we had a team capable of winning the European Cup in '86, and I'm pretty certain the bookies would've made us favorites.

I also do not live in Liverpool, nor ever have done, so I think there is a possibility that all you scouse blues aren't going to like what I'm about to say.... I think we should stop blaming them for all our faults and past non-glories. Yes, Hansen's handball in '84; Clive Thomas all them years ago; Gerrard, Carragher, Heysel, Dalgleish, Fragle Mk 1 and 2...

But we make our own destiny, we showed on Monday we don't have to worry about them. Although I love singing the song, when I really stop to think about it, it does give them credit when we sing it.

The English ban affected every English club, and at the time we were probably in the top 3 richest clubs in the land. How was it that only Everton have been so drastically effected by the ban?

We were mismanaged for years after the ban and ultimately nearly paid the price. Kendall went to Bilbao (not in Europe). Stevens and Steven didn't get their wage demands met. I think we should forget what they are doing or have done and get on with being the first and BEST team in Merseyside. Oh and I do seem to remember LCC bending over backwards to get EFC Kings Dock and our Board once again coming up short.

We now have the thought of that 40,000, maybe 50,000 stadium in Kirkby to look forward to... FFS we already have a 40,000 stadium. Ok they've broke the transfer record 3 or 4 years on the trot but let's be honest it wouldn't have taken much, would it, when your transfer record was £3 or 4 mil to start with.

And another thing, how little fucking foresight went into the Park End re-development? Only end at GP that can be expanded and they shove a one-tier stand on it!! That's with government grants as well. We are where we are because of ourselves! Not them horrible, lucky, cheating, match-fixing bastards across the park. I'm not bitter!

Right, forget DK for now. Just say we have to look for another site or refurb GP then today’s action has lost us £10 million. So this may sound a good measure to stop DK but it also stops the development of the club we love! Complete madness, could you imagine LCC stopping the RS in such a way that would take away 15% of its cash flow/deposit for a new build no matter where that build is. LCC have and always will be the reason why the City will never compete with other class cities, they are incompetent at best. look back to hatton and others this city make look nicer today but long term it will always be second class, city of culture, my arse! EFC is one of the most well known business in the boundary and look how the treat us, no doubt this move will make them get together and talk, i think not Mr Bradley. This move has made any possible co-operation less likely and who will suffer, not LCC but EFC!! Withdraw is season ticket now, I think I hate Bradley more than Hatton now and that is not good.

Keeping DK and Bellefield separate for a moment, does anyone know the exact reason for the refusal of outline planning permission for a residential development on the site?

If the houses are to be affordable homes, then nobody can say that there isn’t a demand for it. Existing residents will always object to new housing developments (especially affordable homes) as it does not benefit them one iota. In fact most existing residents will only see detrimental effects like increased traffic, noise, crime, anti-social behaviour etc. So it is not a surprise that it faced objections from those people. I do not see this as a valid reason to refuse planning permission. Especially when the planning officers have recommended approval.

It does make me wonder what the motivation or justification is behind the refusal. Let’s not forget that the Planning Inspectorate is independent of LCC, so it’s not just them screwing us again.

Geez... can’t a club get a break in this city!

Neil, you can download the full decision document on the KEIOC site, www.keioc.net

Can we please have an end to the "stab in the back" theory that has been floating around since the collapse of the Kings Dock project... The reasons for not giving planning permission are given thus: loss of green space, housing and land supply matters, and its effect on the Housing Market Renewal Initiative.

The Housing market renewal initiative being a moot point; LCC want to regenerate other districts in the city and new housing stock on Bellefield would have undermined that plan. Ties in nicely with the objectors from the Local Authorities objecting to DK on the basis that it would undermine their regeneration plans.

Thanks Colin

It would be interesting to find out how long Liverpool can lay claim to this land in Stanley Park and how patient LCC are willing to be with their dithering owners.

How amazingly fantastic would it be if their agreement with LCC to build on Stanley Park expired? Can this even happen?

If so, we should reapply. Stanley Park should ours not theirs. Apparently Everton were rebuffed in an attempt to gain planning permission to build there in the mid 90’s after a campaign from locals? Is this true?

Hmm, would be good if we could snatch it from them.

The way we are treated by LCC, as second class citizens in this city, a part of me thinks relocating outside of the city boundaries isn’t such a bad idea, but then again, it would be petty to spite LCC and leave the city.

My answer to the way we are being pissed about by LCC is open the gates at Bellefield and let the gipoes on and let's see what the LCC and the stuck-up resident committee think then.

Hey Welcome back Alan Willo (or should it be Tory Boy)

Alan your attitude is awful you constantly run the City of Liverpool down. Fact is that the City was the City of Culture and you seek to demean its attempts to raise its profile. Your attitude is entirely consistent with a southerner (that?s where you reside now?). Look at how Everton market the brand they close its City Centre stores and have no presence in Liverpool One (4th biggest retail attraction in the UK) Face facts Alan you are a Thatcherite acolyte who has moved away and carps on about the City is the pits and seek to blame the LCC for every fault with Everton without blaming the clubs leadership.
If you cannot stomach coming to the City of Liverpool I suggest you give it a miss.

The City of Liverpool is cow-towing to the Duke of Westminster and his ilk, hardly a bastion of non-Thatcherite sympathisers. Let?s get it straight LFC wether we like it or not , sell hotel rooms, gain an influx of tourists to the City as witnessed in the amount of non-locals at Anfield. Everton?s support is made up largely of local people (within 25 miles) who don?t spend huge amounts of money in the city centre

The City and its shops will not lose any sleep if Everton leaves the confines of the City, If LFC were to leave they would lose millions in revenue. As a marketing tool it is much easier to brand one high profile sports franchise with the city than have a confused message. Within ten years a Mickey Mouse city with a Mickey Mouse club will have a theme park to rival the ones in Florida and Paris.

The erosion of Everton?s power has been no accident and it has most certainly been helped by our owners who do not have a handle on local politics and have allowed the club to play second fiddle for over 30 years.

Just a thought, if Bellfield cannot be used for housing and we have to find another use for it.. how about we apply for planning permission to build a stadium?
That would make life interesting for the council..
Oh and yes, we already own the land.. its too simple though isn’t it?
Or is it?

Is there any reason that a new stadium could not be sited at Bellefield.

Great minds and all that, Christine.

Why am i not surprised by Liverpool City Council's decision to reject Evertons Bellefield plans, typical council, although its very easy to resolve just tell them Bellefield belongs to Liverpool FC, it will be passed inside a week, the council wouldn't dare refuse the chosen ones, would they?

I don’t think it’s big enough! If the loop site on Scotland Road isn’t then I’m pretty sure Bellefield isn’t either...

Unless you’re just being facetious?

To be honest, LCC are lucky I don’t own the club. I’d get the fuck outta dodge with it in a heartbeat! This city don’t DESERVE us here. It seems if you’re not red you don’t matter. I’d upsticks lock stock and barrel to Widnes and do a ground share with the Vikings. Failing that I’d speak to every other surrounding council and get the best deal to relocate. Once I’m gone, I’d lease both Goodison Park and Bellefield to the ’travelling folk’ for £1 a year rent.
Let’s see how the locals and LCC like that one. This city makes me puke. I’d gladly move wherever Everton move to and be the happier for it.

For those who don?t know their history... EFC DID ask informally about Stanley Park but were told that as it had listed buildings and a covenant enshrining public use it was impossible to build on it. Ergo EFC did not waste time and money putting in an application. The Kings Dock WAS first and foremost offered to LFC who refused usage as it was too small for their requirements. EFC have continually asked LCC about the area surrounding Goodison and continually been told they cannot have it.

We now have LCC stopping us building houses in the middle of a housing estate! Wake up and smell the coffee boys and girls.. LCC clearly do not want us. EFC have not been blameless for the situation we find ourselves in but should redeem itself starting with the May 09 council elections and run its own candidates in every ward and could even enlist those luddites from KEIOC to help out!

David O’Keefe, the difference between Stanley Park and Bellefield is the former is a designated public open space and always has been or at least until the yanks claimed it.
Bellefield is a private reserve and never has been a public open space.
On the one hand we see a foreign franchise allowed to build a giant stadium on a public recreation area while a locally owned company is refused permission to build houses on its own land in the middle of a residentially zoned area.
There appears to be blatant bias in how LCC has dealt with this matter.

Will those who advocate ditching Kirkby please state their affordable alternative. I would love to have something other than a straw to hang on to.

Stop blaming the LCC all the time!!!! Kenwright and the other numbskulls have pissed them off so much over the years with the Kings Dock etc that the relationship has now broke down between both parties.

Plain and simple, we got offered the deal of the century years ago and Kenwright well and truly cocked it up and pissed off some important people in the process.

If you are going to argue the case, first look at all the factors that brought this situation about before you start pointing the finger!!

Alan WIllo, You don?t half come up with some crazy ideas... Take away an Evertonian's season ticket because Bill Kenwright got refused planning permission...

Yeah, sensible approach... How about taking away Bill Kenwright's season ticket?

Didn?t the RS get round the public land covenant by promising to redevelop Anfield into park land for public use? It?s one of the reasons they?re shafted financially because they can?t raise funds from selling their ground.

Honestly though, everyone, we need to stop getting so wound up about a ground move. It really isn?t going to happen, either to Kirkby or a ground share. We have absolutely no money so £10 mil from Bellefield would make no difference other than helping redevelop parts of Goodison.

I have worked for an Architect?s Practice for 30 years and the norm is that work has to be commenced before the expiry of five years from the date of Planning Approval.

Ciaran:

You post on some of these threads in terms that suggest you actually know exactly what happened, when, how & why. You clearly do not. You have an opinion and that’s it.

With regards to planning permission it is my understanding from a variety of sources that Everton DID ask about the status of Stanley Park when searching for a new venue and were given short shrift, that is to say they were advised that due to its status as a public park and the prevailing attitude towards such areas, and that some of its buildings are acually listed, planning permission would not be granted.

Now, as Maynard-Keynes famously said, "when the facts change sir, I change my view. What do you do?" The granting of planning permission to LFC shocked just about everyone, probably even LFC. You have a propensity for criticising all & everything about the club and Kenwright in particular.

Is it Kenwright’s fault he is not richer and able to plough millions into the club? no. Is it his fault that a billionaire hasn’t popped up from the shadows to do the same? no. Has he made mistakes? yes, we all do. Kings Dock remains in the memory. Nobody KNOWS the full facts because there are conflicting views & speculation about why the whole thing disintegrated over & above the simplistic notion that we just didn’t have the money.

There is clearly an issue, it seems to me, between LCC and Everton. Maybe we are just amateurish and shambolic and they are a top notch, forward looking professional council. Or maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle, where they have been less helpful than they could have been and we’re not strong enough to bring them to task.

Speaking personally, if LCC want to do something really useful, for the city, the clubs (both), the people and the visitors, then facilitating a think-in about how, why, when & where ONE superb Merseyside stadium could be built would be it. As things stand, in the event that somehow LFC did get a go ahead on Stanley Park and we don’t on Kirkby, an aerial view of Walton & Anfield will show 3 very large stadia all in a line less than a mile long.

That’s LCC’s fault/problem/fuck up as much as anyone at Everton.

Alan Clarke:

Wise words indeed.

Pat...... Luddites? When have KEIOC ever advocated blocking progress? Have you seen the plans for a refurbished GP? They are far more progressive than that Kirkby monstrosity. The guys and ladies from KEIOC are trying to prevent the club from jumping into a 50,000 seater white elephant ? not halt progress!

Now that planning permission for houses on the Bellefield site has been refused ? mainly due to objections from local residents ? I think the Club should gift the land to the community with the specific aim of building a young offenders? half-way house or drug clinic. This would illustrate that Everton really is The People?s Club and cares for the City of its birth.

No Alan,

Whether Everton applied for planning permission or not - is a matter of fact...not a matter of opinion.

The club have never stated they applied for permission - so those who jump to this conclusion on the back of hearsay are the ones promoting their opinion as fact.

It’s interesting that you continue in your post to repeat this erroneous conclusion.

J Cambell, If Kings Dock infuenced LCC that would be clear proof the Bellefield matter was not judged on its own merits.
My case rests.

Alan,

If you don?t think Kenwright is in heading the Kirkby move ? as you state on the other thread ? then who exactly do yu think is pulling the strings?


And by the way, I judge people on what I do know ? not what I don?t know.... and the factual account of Kenwright?s history is long and damning. And no amount of preaching about his lack of personal wealth will vitiate that. I don?t need to rely on guesswork to know that this man is Walter Mitty.

Watch this space.

Terrible response Mr Fearon and proof that you didn’t even read or understand my post.

On the Everton chessboard. I notice Pat Turner is using Karpov?s ?Keioc luddites? attack.

Looks at board, places fingers on chin... Hmmmm....(taps fingers).....AH!

Counters with Kasparov?s ?you easily duped gullible Kenwright-lacky mug? defense.

I think it was the Championship Manager season 2001 - anyway I was there playing an that and we got permission and funding to build at the Kings Dock and everything and within 2 years I began a run of 5 Euro Champions League wins in a row!

This article from the Echo nearly bought a tear to my eye...
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/everton-fc/everton-fc-news/2002/10/25/kings-dock-move-is-on-100252-12312429/

It’s time for Kenwright to get mad and get even - hire all the experts - do everything to stop the RS from building on stanley park... history says it belongs to us!!

EJ... checkmate!
I?m more than ever convinced that approbation of offing to Kirkby is in direct proportion to the distance one lives from Liverpool.
Would pro-KIrkby respondents affirm/gainsay this by appending their country/town of residence when declaring support for the resettlement?

Going back a few years but the people in charge of the red shite wanted to make a few changes to Anfield. Shankly told them that any funds should be spent improving the team for success...

Although 5th and 6th places are an improvement on ten years ago it is not success. If there is any money in the kitty then it should go on the team and give us all a chance of seeing us take on the so called BIG FOUR....

Nice to hear from you too, Ed. Yes I?m blue in football and blue in politics, sorry but that?s my choice, my father was very, very red in politics so at least I?m not a sheep like others.

Yes, I do reside in the south (sadly) but I had a good job offer so I made the decision for my family?s future. I still have my season ticket and believe me praise the city every day while I?m in the south and abroad. If I had the chance with same package I would return no problem so your theory is crap.

I?m a big fan of Bill (even though he is red in politics) so I don?t have barriers like you. Once you leave the City you tend to look at it in a different way and we are too blinkered at times when we live there. You won?t understand until you have made that move yourself. I love the City and I?m proud to be from it but at times the blinkered mentality of its custodians only put us behind others.

Manchester council is also mixed with Labour and Libs but 15 years ago (after IRA bomb) it re-invented itself and it's no surprise the City is ahead of us on transport, football stadium, and all round basic infrastructure. So it's nothing to do with politics ? it?s the mentality and pettiness that losses out in the end. Over the past 30 years the City has been full of that and until recently it has been left behind, I see Bellefield as another example of that attitude. To save green belt land that is not open to the public, completely secured by housing? My arse!

Sorry I can?t attend the site as much as before but work is busy, see you at the Bolton game, so sorry I can?t make the Arsenal one but Ed please don?t hold it against me too much. COYB

A few things have been really bothering me lately after the latest backing we received from the wonderful LCC.

I have heard a few people saying that the £6m increased revenue doesn't make the move to Kirkby worthwhile. We made approx £26k profit this year so I think especially over a few years, well, it all adds up, I think it's pathetic to say otherwise.

Anyway - Kirkby is dead now. Costs increase, they don't go down. Yet anyone thinking we can remain at Goodison and make do (ooh we have corporate hospitality... in a fucking tent) is just deluded. This is a real problem folks.

Dare we just start moving into the Kings Dock arena? We won't tell anyone. Just start laying the turf... put up a sign. Bring some royal blue paint and stuff.

Just wanted to ask if the roof is retractable?? We'd need a bit of natural light while we play...