Not good enough
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So a 1-0 defeat at Old Trafford was ok... After all, we have a depleted squad. The lads gave 100% and we were playing a top class side. No shame in that.
Well, I disagree. We were comprehensively outplayed by a side who never needed to move up a gear. Plan A failed and the response of our coach was to try Plan A again.
Perhaps it really is money that prevents us from taking the next step. Maybe our players just aren't good enough. Today, however, we don't know because I have a horrible feeling that our coach was happy with the result.
We went to Old Trafford with the usual inferiority complex. Get behind the ball and see what happens, let's try and sneak a goal. Quite honestly, it was embarassing. Is there any Evertonian out there who really believes that with a full squad our tactics would have been different?
David Moyes has steadied Everton but he is never the man to take us any further. The word "bold" never enters his head. We have a decent but threadbare squad. We are paying £3.5 million a year for mediocrity. We went to Old Trafford like a Conference team in the FA Cup. We deserve better.
Andy Crooks,
Belfast Posted 01/02/2009 at 15:12:44
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Michael Kenrick
Wooa... Andy! That's the sort of post-match analysis I would write before the game, if I was told we were going to lose One-Nil!!!
Fact is, as most people have said, we made a pretty good fist of what we had, keeping the ball down most of the time and at least trying to play what Ken Buckley call's "joined-up football". The failing was in the final third, beyond their 18-yard line. Baines's crosses could have been better... Arteta's execution was lacking and should have been far better,.. Osman was a total waste of space, time, and effort...
Hmmm... I'm starting to agree with you!!! Except that we looked far, far better than a Conference team. I still have this niggling feeling that's because Utd stood off us and let us play in midfield. Most teams don't do that... it's usually ankle-biting, rough challenges and head-tennis. That at least let us get close... but the telling stat is shots on target... errr...
Just backs up my theory that our players don't have much idea how to structure attacks with the ball because that is the last thing Moyes is training them to do... Perish the thought they could lose that all-important defensive shape!!!
I'm just delighted that somebody else has called Leon Osman a waste of space!! I've been itching to give it to him with both barrells for years but I've been too scared too!!!!
For me he is an absolute joke, his passing is a disgrace and he is so weak it is unreal! I am aghast that he is a favourite of Moyes?s and thus guaranteed a place in the team if he is fit. Can't we give Gosling a go?
I thought Everton's performance against United was similar to all our improved showings against the big 4. Fairly solid defensively but only ever have a chance of scoring from a set piece.
What did Alex Ferguson say before the game..."David Moyes has done a fantastic job, and doesn't get the credit he deserves"
Funnily enough, I agree with him and not you...
But I'm sure your right...
Perhaps you both attend training, hence know exactly what coaching does or does not go on, the capability of the players etc.? We lost yesterday, it has happened before and it will happen again, but I don?t think we were ultra defensive or negative, just making the best of what was available against a side with far more options and better quality. I?d agree that at 1-0 down, maybe we could have seen some youngsters blooded or some tactical changes made but I won?t write off Moyes on the basis of one game at OT with the current limited resources.
It?s the tactics and the timidity for sure. Maybe if Moyes had the money to spend he would spend it on more attack-minded creative players, but where?s the evidence of that??? Everytime we are crying out for a creative midfielder or a clever forward, we seem to get a defender or a goalie.......
And on the issue of Ossie- I like him but it seems to me he?s all in by February every year......
"Maybe our players just aren?t good enough"
Well no, individually they aren?t good enough to be challenging top place Andy but that is why it?s all the more rewarding in the last 4 games to be seeing them make something of it as a team against some top sides. I for one wasn?t "embarrassed" by them. It seems to be a big learning curve for this team and slowly, it seems to be going somewhere.
All huff and puff and can't blow the house down ? that's Osman for you.
If you had said we would still be 4 points clear of the chasing pack after that spell of games before we started it then, come on, you would have taken it, surely? The lads have done us proud in recent weeks so let?s hope for a last surge on Wednesday and then carry on picking up points against all the teams below us.
This kind of negative, over the top mail is ridiculously naive and does the writer no credit. Ditto the assassination of one of our players, one Leon Osman, Mr. Kenrick. If it was a journo writing then this ?biting analysis? would be called ?lazy? at best.
Our players are good enough, we just don’t have enough of them!
Steve, Osman’s contribution is at best poor. Most people can see that. Classifying this as "assassination" is ridiculous hyperbole. It’s post-match analysis.
If you don’t like it, don’t participate. If you must participate, explain how we are wrong... but don’t come on here and start denigrating other people’s opinions just because you don’t agree with them.
Mr Steve Guy, surely it?s not assassination to ask why Ossie seems all in and hasn?t been dropped ? to me he looks dead on his feet ? it?s also fair to ask why he doesn?t perform well against the $ky 4. Compare his performances to Steven Pienaar, also a lightweight player who is definitely not underperforming.....
Well I said it before the game, and I say it now:
Howard
Yobo Jags Lescott
Hibbert Baines
Gosling Osman Rodwell Arteta
Jutkiewicz
and rested the rest on the bench, so we could have been fresher for the game on Wednesday...
Andy
25% fair comment, 75% bollocks.
Agree that Moyes should engender more adventure (on occasions). Osman has dropped off in last 6 games & should be replaced by Gosling (I think the lad has done OK this season).
Mitigation - we are talking about the best team in the country, possibly Europe, arguably the world, and with a patched up team & carrying injuries & a bit tired we lost to an iffy penalty. So please, just a little perspective.
Our main man, Arteta, was plainly not fully fit. Fellaini similar, and given his current role that impacts our offensive potential.
That’s 5 games against the Sky 4 recently and 1 defeat. We deserved to beat both Arsenal & Chelsea too. So whilst I have sympathy for the views about Moyes lacking courage on occasions, given all the circumstances I’m struggling to see the merits of your sweeping dissatisfaction.
It’s the age old story about raising expectations. If you turn around your complaints, does it not say a but about where we currently think we are that many fans are pissed off when our patched up team loses to a soft penalty away to the current world champions, and that’s only our 2nd defeat in 18 games.
Things can always be better. They can also be one he’ll if a lot worse.
Osman is in the team because Moyes reckons he is the best we have got. Apart from isolated occasions I have yet to see a prem player with less physical presence, speed, shooting ability or game changing influence.<>In the cup derby we can expect him to have another shithouse of a game. Some will say I should be condemned for saying that about one of our own but that will not alter the fact that the sight of him coming out of the tunnel makes me cringe.
Basically our final third let us down, we don?t have a world class forward, and a pacy winger to bring the ball out without being shoved off too easily. Pienaar is too small and Ossie it crap on the wing. The Yak circa 07-08 would?ve been useful.
Lads, United are more than capable at the moment to beat any team on the planet. They have a large number of injuries and and can still throw out a class team that gets the job done. Fergie's men simply have that fantastic mentality of an assassin. 1-nil was grand, who if anyone thought we were going to sneak a win? We all felt a draw would be brilliant so a loss is what everyone is basically expecting. Move on.
Now with regards to Moyes not being the man. Fair comment, his lack of game saving or game winning subs is driving me crazy and the Big Fella never should have missed that Anfield league match but who else do you get? I hated that period when we went through a bunch of bad managers. Who is going to come here that will suddenly take us from being a possibly 4th place team but a general 5th of 6th place team?
Sure you can throw lots of names out but who will come to Everton, we have what seems to be an empty bank account and what manager worth his salt will come? We could go down the road of getting an up and coming guy from the lower divisions and we all know that could be a disaster. I think the start was very indifferent and we have to get over that but we now are a team that nobody wants to play. You think the shite are looking forward to coming to us.... Are they fuck!!!
Ax The death was announced of Aubrey Powell and accompanied by a full page article in the Yorkshire Evening Post on Friday 30th January.
Aubrey Powell, a welsh international was signed by Everton for a near record £11,000 in 1948 from Leeds Utd.
His funeral takes place this wednesday, 04 02 09, in Leeds
So now it's Jo???? If he cannot get a game in the present Man City side, then I can't see him doing much here. Perhaps City are doing what we do with Ruddy and Kissock... loan them out to let them have games at a lesser club????
Wheres the talk of only the best for our club... we are now looking at the likes of Smith who was mainly on the bench at Newcastle, when fit!! Where is our Ambition??
I agree with the article because even Jags said that we gave Utd too much respect. They really coasted most of the game once they went ahead as we did not threaten them and lost almost every challenge in midfield. It's not just Ozzie though... Cahill could not get in the game and Arteta and Fellaini were both very tired long before the end.
DM does not try any new tactics... it's just always Anichebe and he is well known to all the clubs. Why not try Gosling?? He cannot be any worse. I'm not knocking Vic but without our fantastic defence we would be in free fall.
Andy, I totally agree with your comments regarding Moyes?s predictable, submissive, negative tactics. Once again, the grossly overrated Arteta failed to turn up against a top 4 team as did Osman. The midfield requires a complete overhall. The less said about the the lazy, mediocre, winging Anichebe the better. On a more positive note, our defence is as good as any in the Premier League.
There are some given facts in an Everton team that faces most of the top four, but more specifically Man Utd:
The team will give them far too much respect.
Hibbert will never find his own players with a cross.
Arteta will go missing for long periods.
Anichebe will moan at the referee because he did not get a penalty for falling over his boot laces ten yards outside the box. He will also commit stupid fouls and try to push over any player that gets near him.
Fellaini will foul four or five players and plead total ignorance.
Cahill will run himself ragged.
Osman will not disappear because he was not there to begin with.
Moyes will never substitute at the right time or for that matter the right player.
90% of all that goes on every week with the exception of Arteta.
I doubt we will ever cross the threshold to become a big four club again; however, it's better than being a Spurs, Newcastle or Man City fan, all that money and still fighting a relegation dogfight.
Ciarán MacGiolla Eoin
Posted 02/02/2009 at 09:47:54
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The drastic difference between the Arsenal game and saturday... was shocking!
Osman... nuff said... and Pienaar couldn?t pass again... one step forward two steps back....
And taking Fellaini off?
The reasoning for that escaped me.
Osman haters will inevitably get their wish if Jo signs up as the little fella will give way to the big Brazilian. Unfortunately, that will mean a return to wing duties for Arteta who, although quiet on Saturday, has shown top form in a more central role.
Our present defence is as sound as any in the land but the midfield is unimaginative and predictable and is unlikely to provide the newcomer with the service he will require to make an impact. But at least with Cahill getting some support up front, we should be strong enough to cling to sixth position ? the very best we can hope for this season.
"... the reason for taking Fellaini off escapes me."
How about he was largely anonymous and is carrying an injury?
Is it me or do I think differently to most Blues? The most important game we have this week is Bolton on Saturday. It's games against the also rans where we need to play our strongest team and not Man U away with a half-fit Cahill or the RS on Wednesday. Yes, I want to beat the reds but would give it up for 3 points on Saturday. The game against Man U was the perfect opportunity to rest Arteta and Cahill and give Gosling, Rodwell or Luke whatsisname a good run-out.
I?ve posted before on here to say Leon Osman isn?t good enough and I?ve seen nothing in the last 5 games to change my mind. As for Victor, well where do we start? He can?t pass, can?t jump, can?t head, can?t shoot and he comes on or plays week after week. At best he?s a Championship player. Not his fault ? we all find our level in whichever sport we play; DM?s yet to realise he?s not Premier League and insists on picking him.
Osman is too weak. He has no end product and can't pass water!!!
Piennar is too weak. He has no end product and can't pass water!!!
Victor is just crap!!!
Ciarán MacGiolla Eoin
Posted 02/02/2009 at 10:52:52
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I know you consider yourself some sort of footballing oracle, Dave, but I would?ve thought that substutions generally start with those playing the worst... Fellaini may have had a shin problem but it certainly wasn?t affecting our play as much as Osman?s ineptitude....
"I thought that substitutions generally start with those playing the worst"
So we should drag them off and leave the injured players on? Ciaran, even by your standards, that's a dumb post.
To be fair, I dont think it would?ve changed the game regardless of who came off/went on ? Utd were in cruise control and playing well within themselves.
Fellaini has an injury so I think it was the right thing to take him off ? Osman may have been innefective but so was Fellaini.
I suspect Moyes also had one eye on the Cup replay and wanted to give Fellaini the best chance of being available ? to that end I would concur with the choice of substitution.
I hope we sign Jo today.
Ciarán MacGiolla Eoin
Posted 02/02/2009 at 12:46:27
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Apparently you?re allowed more than one substition.
Im struggling to find anywhere that says Fellaini was so badly injured and unable to play on. Can you assist me, Dave... or have taken up crystal ball gazing!
He had a shin problem.... he was clearly able to play ? and a hell of a lot more effectively than Osman.
But don?t let the facts get in the way of your petty little agenda of stalking me.
Ciarán MacGiolla Eoin
Posted 02/02/2009 at 13:03:56
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That's a fair enough point, James. However, I really cannot see why Osman has kept his place in the starting line up for the last 4 games... and he?ll be a starter for Wednesday too!
If we were really that concerned about Fella?s injury ? and had one eye on Wednesday, then perhaps he shouldn?t have been on in the first place...
Anyway, let's hope for a drastic reversal on Wednesday...
Some of you do make me laugh! Pienaar cant pass!!!!!! Are you sure coz I saw him release Baines numerous times with inch perfect passing. I think people should be saying what really happens i:e Pienaar always tries to play a clever pass ( and on the deck) and sometimes fails sometimes succeeds. I think he gives the ball away more than Neville and Hibbert but its certainly not all the time. Infact, I feel he has improved recentley as he has started to take players on and beat them aswell as maintaining his great workrate. Maybe its me and I watch with blue coloured glasses?
So Kevin, you would rather beat Bolton than knocking the shite out of the cup? I know what game I'd rather win and it's not Bolton.
Ciarán MacGiolla Eoin
Posted 02/02/2009 at 13:45:29
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Nick,
No-one said he gives the ball away all the time...Pienaar can either be very good or very bad...and it’s this swingeing inconsistency that perhaps leads to him getting more flack than he should - he can play football, thats the problem.....
He was superb in the Arsenal game...but that was between two games in which, for me, he was shocking....
You stated that the reason for Fellainis substitution escapes you, I came to your assistance with a couple of sound solid reasons.
Funny how the guy who so aggressively snipes at other people's articles ? without having the guts to submit one of his own ? should suddenly feel hunted.
The words heat, can't stand and kitchen spring to mind...
Hi Tom, In my opinion, and that?s what it?s all about, 3 points in the league is better than a Cup Win. Bolton are coming off the back of a good win against Spurs and are a rough and tumble, fit as fleas team. I think we will have our work cut out against them and we need our strongest team to to beat them. Cahill is knackered and Fellaini is struggling. We can?t let playing the RS cloud our judgement. Hopefully we can win both but, even if we beat the Reds, can you see us winning the FA Cup? Just my opinion as your entitled to yours.
Anyway, problems solved ? we?ve just signed Jo on Loan !!!!
Ciarán MacGiolla Eoin
Posted 02/02/2009 at 14:28:35
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So you can?t support your reasoning then Dave!
Dumb you say! Oh I see..
ps: Hunted? Behave yourself... Your brand of cliché-armed dialectic is about as challenging as a Jilly Cooper novel..
The man is injured and playing shite, so he?s subbed... and you need that reasoning supported???
You're embarrassing yourself, pal, stick to watching your imaginary wingbacks and reading Jilly Copper ? whoever she is. I?d rather debate things Everton, with people who actually understand the game.
Ciarán MacGiolla Eoin
Posted 02/02/2009 at 16:00:13
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Debate? HA-FUCKIN-HA...
Dave, the options are quite simple...don’t respond.
Okay, Ciaran, that?s enough. Dave?s right: it was a bit of a daft question, now please drop it before we descend into another Scouse Wedding...
Ciarán MacGiolla Eoin
Posted 02/02/2009 at 16:32:07
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Fair enough.
The overall performance was good against a top class side. Pienaar played very well and caused the mancs trouble down the left flank in the first half. Osman was anonymous and Arteta stifled. Ferdinand and Vidic looked imperious and restricted us. Carrick is growing into a world class player. The mancs I talked to said we were one of the most attacking sides they?d seen this season in the first half. Some of the negatives expressed above are unreasonable.
All in all, we as a group descend into a witch hunt to find and berate our weakest link. It's a type of football fanatic Darwinism and I firmly belive in the survival of the fittest. Osman is a runt and needs to be replaced.
Everton went to Old Trafford and were already resigned to getting beat in the warm up. They played without belief that they could win and hoping to score from a set piece.
Andy is correct, we should not be holding our heads up high singing that we only got beat 1-0 to a penalty. The truth is we got battered and Man Utd did not even get have to get out of first gear.
I think Moysey still has nighmares about when he took him team to Arsenal and played an open game and we got battered 7 - 0. Since then it has been safety first all the time against the top four teams. Andy is correct, we need to have a go and be more attacking as this is the best form of defence.
We kept the ball well, passed it well but there was a lack of creativity in the final third. A lack of movement from the front players especially. Cahill and Fellaini are doing a good job up there but there not going to offer anything in terms of movement in behind and down the channels.
This basically means the likes of Pienaar and Arteta have got to play to feet, we play in front of teams instead of trying to get behind them and penetrate.
I?m surprised by the criticism of Pienaar, I thought he played well. Him and Baines down the left hand side caused Gary Neville lots of problems and it was our only real creative outlet.
Osman was poor, he?s very inconsistent outwide. Decent in the middle and a good squad player but I think getting a right winger in the summer is a must, he struggles out there and Arteta is excellent in the middle. No point in moving him back.
I?d play Anichebe on the right against Liverpool, he caused them lots of problems in the first game and can at least physically cope with a game like that. Aurelio also struggles against physical players as we saw in the first leg.
All in all a decent performance until the final third, we looked tired and out of ideas when they scored. We didn?t have anyone who could give us another option and change the game.
Absolutely spot on Andy. Clueless Moyes as usual. The old argument about the squad not being good enough or big enough maybe true, but is Hull City's any better? After all, they attacked Man Utd from the off and were unlucky to lose and so easily could have won. Back to the narrow mindedness of our manager playing a team told to contain as usual.
I don't think the performance was as bad as many of your suggest. At least we attempted to keep hold of the ball and use Pienaar and Baines to offer some limited threat. Let's be honest, had a penalty not been given and we had scraped a 0-0, some people would of be falling all over themselves with praise.
I am no great fans of Mr Moyes but I am more prepared to condemn negative tactics against lesser teams when we play them at home. The tactics and approach were pretty much determined from the off given the players available. In contrast to some posters on this thread, I don't think we were that much better against Arsenal.
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Fact is, as most people have said, we made a pretty good fist of what we had, keeping the ball down most of the time and at least trying to play what Ken Buckley call's "joined-up football". The failing was in the final third, beyond their 18-yard line. Baines's crosses could have been better... Arteta's execution was lacking and should have been far better,.. Osman was a total waste of space, time, and effort...
Hmmm... I'm starting to agree with you!!! Except that we looked far, far better than a Conference team. I still have this niggling feeling that's because Utd stood off us and let us play in midfield. Most teams don't do that... it's usually ankle-biting, rough challenges and head-tennis. That at least let us get close... but the telling stat is shots on target... errr...
Just backs up my theory that our players don't have much idea how to structure attacks with the ball because that is the last thing Moyes is training them to do... Perish the thought they could lose that all-important defensive shape!!!