I just wondered how the situation with Mikky vs Spain would turn out if he (god forbid) signed for Manu/Arsenal/Chelsea for example in the summer!

You can bet everything you have got that he will be an automatic choice if he went to one of the top Prem teams or even one of the top two Spanish sides.

Arteta is not good enough at the moment to be in the Spanish squad. If he was to move to a ?bigger club? it would improve his chances but only marginally. Their midfield is superb and that is why he isn't involved yet...

The reason Mikky is not in the Spain squad is Iniesta, Xavi, Senna, Silva, Fabregas, Alonso etc in midfield.

However, I believe he is better than Alonso but he plays for Liverpool so he HAS to play for Spain!!

I think the reason that he doesn?t get called up for Spain is he is not a very prolific scorer, nor does he have many shots at goal.

Even for Everton, I would like Moyes to tell him before the game: "Look, I want you to have at least 3 shots at goal. Doesn?t matter if they don?t go in initially, just fire them towards goal"

My humble take on this matter.

The only reason for a player of Mikel?s ability not getting in a national set-up would be if there was too much competition in his position. On the flanks, I can see why he might have problems, with David Silva, Andres Iniesta, Joaquin etc. Arteta?s biggest problem when he played here was his consistency of crosses (they were either wonderful or woeful ? there was no middle ground) and his lack of real pace (compared with some of the names I have just mentioned).

Since he has moved into the middle for Everton this season, however, he has been magnificent game after game. Like all world class midfielders, he plays with his head up, his touch and awareness is outstanding, his vision is so good that he often picks out passes that even I (in my elevated position of either the stand or the TV set, where I can see better angles etc) do not see.

I have had the privilege of seeing Xavi play live, and I have to say I have rarely been more impressed with a footballer, so I can see why Arteta struggles to get past him. Fabregas is also a rare talent. What I can?t see, however, is how Arteta is not automatically next in line.

Like all Evertonians I am convinced that Arteta is a far better player than Xabi Alonso and, while Marcos Senna is good, he does not offer the same quality as Mikel.

My theory is that Del Bosque ignorantly still thinks Arteta plays wide (where he is very good, but shows limitations). If he actually decided to come to Merseyside to take in a couple of games on our side of the park (I find it amazing that he didn?t come to at least one of the derbies) he would see that Arteta is now an immovable object as our central midfield lynch-pin.

Arteta should be in the Span squad, and it is a failing of Del Bosque that he is not.

Spain is over-loaded with great midfielders. All its international games are against top sides. Mikel hardly ever shines against top sides. Our game against Bolton was the only time in recent memory when our midfield had total domination.

The problem for Arteta is the competition. Spain is the best national team in the world at the moment. He would be in every other squad in the world ? maybe with the exception of Brazil. No doubt he?s better than Alonso, but he is not considered for the defensive role of Alonso and Senna.

The position for him in the Spain team is the Xavi position. Well... Xavi is fantastic. That?s why Fabregas can?t get into the starting line up. They also have Iniesta who can play in that same position and he offers more out wide. So at best Arteta is 3rd or 4th choice. As long as they play 4-2-3-1 (4-5-1/4-3-3) he is in for an uphill battle.

Watching Spain the other night, I thought that this was perhaps one of the greatest midfields I have ever seen. The fast interpassing was like something from a different planet (certainly a different planet from the one that Barry and Carrick and Lampard ? good players that they are ? live on). So maybe in the end it really is just because the competion is so stiff. Now, Mikel would surely walk into the England team...

While we all would be biased saying Arteta is better than Alonso, I just think Alonso has got a bit more to his game. We have only seen the best of Mikkey since he moved to the middle, Alonso has been doing it for club and country constantly every season. Against England, he looked impressive. Mikkey will get his chance, he just needs to keep to the high standard that he has been showing, and his time will come.

Ajay, If he has three shots on goal then that's 3 times we lose posession, therefore it's a daft idea.

Arteta?s game is keeping the ball and moving it around, finding space, pulling opposition players out of position. If he finds a player making a run or can have a genuine attempt on goal then fine.

Currently he is deep lying so he isn't going to get forward, he's not an attacking midfielder believe it or not.

I agree with Brian, Alonso is the better player and I think he has been immense for the Shite this season, if he would have gone at the end of last season to Italy, the Shite would be struggling to keep up with Chelsea not where they are now.

Mikel is just not good enough to get into the Spain team at the moment, I do feel that he should have been on he bench as Fabregas was injured and should not have been included in the squad.

As most of you have stated, Mikel will not get into the current Spanish team. Their midfield players particularly Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas are a cut above Mikel and Senna and Alonso keep turning in the performances for Spain.

If Mikel wants a cap he have to get a UK passport ? I?m sure Capello would love him with Gerrard and Barry.

I?m sure it?s frustrating for him, but to be completely honest, I really, REALLY hope he doesn?t get picked.

My interest in football more or less boils down to just Everton, I want our best players fit for every game FOR US, so for me, international games just get in the way and provide extra opportunities for injuries.

Also, there was criticism of Jags the other night which hopefully won?t have any effect on him. But wealthy pampered footballers not being the most mentally tough of individuals... it just might. If it does and as a result, his form dips, will Evertonians still be saying "Jags should be called up to the England squad"?

Doubt it.

Brian and tony what planet are you on??? "I just think Alonso has got a bit more to his game. We have only seen the best of Mikkey since he moved to the middle."

For your 1st point, Arteta clearly has more to his game than Alonso for the reason he can play in any midfield position and contributes more in a game than Alonso for seasons, scoring and creating more goals without the assistance of a fantastic steve G. Instead having to play alongside Osman or Carsley in his time.

Your 2nd point is also nonsense; even from wide positions, which is not his best position he has still been our player of the season or up there for about 3 out of 5 seasons and has been one of the top midfielders in the country behind only Ronaldo, Gerrard, Lampard and Fabragas.

And regarding Tony's point that Alonso has been immense this season, ? I have many redshite friends who have admited he has been awful for a couple of season and the bitter ones finally admitted to me that Arteta is better than Alonso. For the bitter blinkered ones to admit something like that it must be true.

Against Villa, count how many times Arteta gives the ball away from a loose pass or from a tackle. I will have a wager with someone he doesn’t once.

Arteta oozes quality is easily as good as those mentioned players Xavi and Alonso. Anyone who doubts this has been sucked in by the over hype the press gives to these two players.

He?s nowhere near as good as Xavi ? nowhere near. The reason he isn't in the Spain squad is against the biggest teams, he doesn't shine on a consistent basis.

Ian, that says a lot for the other lads, when Arteta has been our star player when playing ouy wide. How many times did we moan from about another shit delivery, be it from a free ? kick , cross or corner from Arteta. How many games did he go missing for, when played out wide?

He has been excellent since moving to the middle, because he gets the chance to dictate play, and if Moyes would have had him there from the start, he may have had his call-up.

Arteta can still frustrate you, when he is in and around the box, he never goes for goal (apart from when it is a free-kick) when the chance is there ? considering his free-kicks, I can?t understand why. I?m not saying he is miles behind Alonso, there isn?t much in it, but I just think that Alonso has that little bit more to his game.

Allan, you need to take those blue tinted specs off mate if you think he is better than Xavi.

If dross like Riera and Luis Garcia can get in current and past Spanish squads, it does make you believe if Arteta played for the red shite he would have had a call up at some point.

Whether he?s better than Tom, Dick or Harry is beside the point. Arteta has shined for Everton and deserves recognition of this by the Spanish football authorities. Taking him into the fold and giving him playing time in a friendly is one way in which they can gauge whether he fits into a system that they deploy.

It just makes sense even if it is still considered that he isn?t ready for the national team just yet. Any good football team ensures that all prospective resources are recognised. If Spain suddenly have an injury crisis in midfield it will be Arteta that they have to turn to. To keep ignoring him is very odd in my opinion.

Brian, you say:

"How many times did we moan from about another shit delivery, be it from a free-kick, cross or corner from Arteta. How many games did he go missing for, when played out wide?"

There was only one period when I remember we moaned about Arteta out wide and this was the last few months of last season, when it was well documented he was playing with an injury through the pain barrier as we were short of players. An injured Arteta is still better than most, which further proves his class.

Your second point about him going missing especially in big games against the best teams I agree with to an extent but this can be explained in 2 ways: first of all, if you are up against the likes of Man U, Arsenal etc, you are likley to have less of the ball and also players in more central areas generally see more of the ball than wingers.

And as for poor delivery did you not see Alonso's free kick/cross in the last Derby that went into Row Z? Don't kid yourself into believing Alonso has better delivery than Arteta, just look at the stats and the facts, who has scored more free kicks? Who has more assists?

Please explain to me what Alonso has that Arteta doesnt? the only thing Alonso beats Arteta on is who gets the most yellow cards and who's on the floor the most.

Arteta has more skill and can beat a man, he's faster, has more energy more fight, more heart, scores more, creates more, is as good a passer, and I would say can tackle as good. I'm struggling to think of anythink Alonso is better than him at....

Sorry Ian, I mistakenly put my musings ahead of the "my friend reckons" scale.

Are these among the same reds who booed their team when they went top of the league by any chance.

I judge things on what I have seen not what my mate once said. Alonso is a better player than Arteta, I hate typing that but I will not change my view just because I am a Blue.

I genuinely believe Alonso is a better player and no matter what you write or suggest will not change that, same as you will always believe Arteta is better.

Agree to disagree.

Who cares as long as he keeps playing for us? The thought of him in a red shirt send shivers down my spine anyway.

I?ve only read the initial post so forgive me if I?m going over old ground here.

The reason Arteta is not in the Spain squad is because they have the best midfield in the world.

Iniesta & Xavi are the most talented twosome in world football at the moment; just ask Barcelona ? with Senna and Xavi Alonso or Fabregas backing them up theres simply no place for Arteta.

Watching them the other night was an absolute joy and I really enjoyed the game, not for Englands performance, but to watch Spain in action ? their passing was sublime, the movement the best I have seen for years and to watch such ?total football? was breathtaking at times.

Look at La Liga, look at Barca, look at Xavi & Iniesta and you can see exactly why Arteta doesn?t play for Spain.

He does go missing when up against a top midfield.

He is a great player. But when up against a Gerrard, Lampard or someone of that ilk he dies away completely.

Ian, you agree that he does missing in the big games. You then give the reasons, that it was when we play the likes of Man U, Arsenal etc. So, does that mean he?s not good enough against top quality opposition? Wouldn?t he come up against that calibre of player/team at internation level?

When the redshite beat Man U and drawn against Arsenal, Alonso ran the show in midfield, something that Arteta hasn?t done ? wouldn?t that make Alonso the better player because has proved it against top opposition?

In Europe, Alonso is always getting praised for his performances. I think Arteta is fucking brilliant, and would have him over Alonso anyday, because Alonso is a whingeing bastard, but I stick to what I say, that Alonso has just got that bit more quality about him. He has proved it at international level, against the top Prem sides and in the Champions League. Arteta has still yet to prove it against the top prem sides.

I agree with Brian, Xavi Alonso is better than Arteta ? fact.

Arteta should have been in the squad for pure common sense reasons. As stated in other posts, what if there is an injury crisis? The view expressed by the manager is a strange argument., especially for some one as high in the game. I believe he is better than Alonso but then I am biased, and don?t mind admitting it!

It will be interesting to see what happens if somebody does die, or ends career, would he still be overlooked? Probably, but it would appear to me, not for football reasons. I just wonder if someone high up in the Spanish FA doesn?t like his family or something. And just maybe it is this particular person who needs to die!

Its simple, he can?t get in the Spain squad for the same reason I can?t get in the Everton squad.

He?s not good enough.

(I'm carrying an injury though...)

Ian, one more thing mate. It?s not just Arteta who Alonso is keeping out the Spanish side, he also gets in ahead of Fabregas, which takes some doing, because Fabregas is top quality, but I suppose Arteta is better than Fabregas as well?

We have in Arteta a great player, who is only going to get better, and I would put money on it, that it won?t be long before he is in the Spanish set-up, and with the quality of players he will have round him, it can only benefit us more.

Arteta and Alonso are completely different players, Arteta works harder, scores more - now - and can beat a man. and is faster
Alonso is sometimes slow and imobile, but he has a superb range of passing and his style compliments the other Spanish players.

Of course Arteta is the better player, who in their right mind would want a straight swap? Mikky desperately want to play for Spain, but I?m afraid he?s in direct competition with Xavi and Inesta, not Alonso.

Dave, that's been my point every time we have this discussion. Nobody in world football at the moment is better than Xavi & Iniesta, Spanish or otherwise!!

Brian, first of all, if you read my first post, you will see I put Arteta behind Fabregas and it is clear to everyone Fabregas is better than Alonso too, so I don't know why Alsons gets in ahead of Fabregas ? perhaps the same reason he gets in ahead of Arteta, or perhaps because he has more experience. Yes, Alonso has played at the highest level winning the Champions League but I think that has more to do with a player called Gerrard than it does Alonso.

Your other point: you say, "So, does that mean he?s not good enough against top quality opposition? Wouldn?t he come up against that calibre of player/team at international level?" ? As I said, Man U is an overall better side than us and will dominate posession everytime, so it is difficult for Arteta to do what he is best at as he can't get the ball. The other top 3 sides including Liverpool have enough overall quality and ball winners like Mascherano and Gerrard to compete and give the ball to Alonso.

All I will say is if you put Alonso in Everton's team with Hibbert behind him and Osman and Anichebe in front of him and put Arteta in Liverpool's side with Gerrard and Torres in front, I think you'll see where I am coming from. Arteta would have a lot more of the ball and have great movement and pace from Torres... and where do I begin with what Gerrard would offer a player like Arteta, even Danny Murphy looked half decent with Gerrard backing him up.

The style of play and the understanding of the Spanish midfield is fantastic; unfortunately, I don't think Arteta would or could improve that midfield... now England's midfield is crying out for a player like Arteta ? we have no one like him; Spain have many.

The other point is [many others have made this already] Arteta doesn?t shine when we play the Manures etc. This is due to 1/ We don't have the ball enough 2/ The better teams close Arteta out [or foul him ? check stats for most fouled] as they realise he is the one to stop. To get into the Spanish side he must produce against the better teams like Manure [I use them as in the last period of games they are the only ones to dominate us].

I think he?s great and would rather have him in our side than Alonso, but for Spain Alonso fits their system better.

Ian, one thing we both agree on, is that Arteta is a quality player, and at the end of the day, that’s all what matters.

I can understand why Arteta does not get in the Spanish side as they are arguably the best side in the world at the moment. However; what I cannot fathom is why he has NEVER made a squad not even for a friendly or a training camp.


He has been at Everton for 4 seasons and in all that time, regardless of his at times imperious form, he has never had a look-in. Spain are brilliant now but they have not been at this standard during Arteta?s time with us. Yet not once has he been called up, anyone can see why he does not make the first XI but to not make the squad in four years is incredible.

Arteta has alot going against him. He doesn’t play for a top side, he’s not watched week in week, he?s played most of his career outside of Spain and he?s been used as a wide player for the majority of his time here, I don?t think he?s ever been seen as a winger.

He?s only been playing centre midfield for nearly three months so it?s not really long enough to judge and compare, especially against midfielders who have played centrally for most of there careers. If he keeps playing the way he is playing though then they have to think about him, he?s been excellent. Just keep it up Mikel!

Arteta and Alonso aren?t that different, Arteta should be competing with Alonso and Senna and not Iniesta and Xavi. He?s not an attacking midfielder, he is a deep lying central midfielder. Even alongside Neville he plays deep and dictates the game from a withdrawn position, similar to Alonso.

He has continually out assisted and out scored Alonso in English football, he?s more versatile and arguably has a far more rounded game. I?d struggle to find an attribute Alonso has over him bar long range passing. Arteta basically betters him in most areas in my opinion and I have no doubts he?s just as good if not better.

He just needs to keep it up really, keep playing well in his natural position. Playing in the Uefa cup and pulling the strings will no doubt help. Hopefully he gets his chance one day.

Connor, Does merely playing in the same position make two players comparable? Would you compare say Scholes to Mascherano or Arteta to Carsley? I don't think you would, yet all four play in deep lying midfield roles for their clubs.

Arteta and Alonso are not comparable, if you take out Alonso?s ability to see and execute a long-range pass, you're left with very little else, but that's where he fits in, he brings variety to the team. Spain have about half-a-dozen players who are equally comfortable on the ball and can play a wonderful short game, Arteta is definitely one of them and could easily play in Iniesta?s or Xavis?s more advanced role.

But they like to hit Torres and Villa from deep too, that's were Alonso comes in and let's be honest, Arteta couldn't do this ? not as well anyway ? and will probably never be asked to. Senna doesn't have Arteta's ability either, but reads a game as if he was given the script in advance.

Arteta can be brilliant on his day, he has more ability than Alonso and Senna put together, but they are specialist, and I feel that it?ll take at least a couple of injuries for Mikky to get his chance.

Arteta is Basque, I believe. Don't know whether this has any bearing on his position in the team, but with the regional and other real and bitter rivalries in that country, who knows?

In the past it was often noted that Spain underperformed due to the fact that they lacked unity. May be totally irrelevant...

Dave Wilson, I class the likes of Carsley and Mascherano as defensive midfielders whereas the likes of Alonso, Arteta, Carrick and Pirlo are deep lying playmakers who dictate the game from a withdrawn position.

So, yes, I would say they can be compared, obviously there not all the same (every player is different) but their function is the team is the same, they are there to link defence to attack and control the game from that deeper position. How they do that doesn?t really matter, every player has different attributes and will go about things in different ways.

I do see your point though, Alonso?s long-range passing is hard to come by and it does bring variety to Spain?s game. It probably will take a few injuries for Mikel to get his chance sadly, he?s just got to keep it up and hope for the best.

Alonso is also Basque, so it can’t be that.

Connor

Yes, you're right to distinguish the difference between a defensive midfield player and a deep lying playmaker, although they occupy the same areas of the pitch (play in the same position, if you like) as you point out, they are there to perform completely different roles.

Arteta has played in a more advanced role, but spent 90% his time at GP out wide; while this proves he?s more versatile than the other Spanish players, they have caught the managers eye making the positions their own.

We?re in agreement, he?s good enough alright, but while the Spanish are sweeping all before them, the manager would be crazy to alter anything.

What is the advantage for Everton if he does play for Spain ? He would just get injured or showcased for other big sides to poach.

Shhhhhh ...... be quiet and don’t make an issue out of this OK ? It’s not ’a problem’.

I love our Mikky, however, he does have limitations. When it comes to the so called big 4, he has in my opinion, not been able to demonstrate he?s top drawer. I just wonder if the Spanish selection also realises Mikkys limits. BUT I STILL LOVE HIM TO BITS.

COYB

Arteta is the better footballer (than Alonso) and he’s unlucky not to be capped given his form.

But Spain have a system and he’s obviously not seen as a ’fit’ for it... what we saw this week is that Alonso does ’fit’ that system very well.

If he doesn’t feel the need to move just so he can move up the pecking order then I’m happy for him not to get picked for Spain. A tiny first team doesn’t need it’s players playing more games.