The Mail Bag
The Media, Moyes and Everton
Comments (50)
Having read the article by James Lawton in the Independent, through the link on the Toffeeweb homepage, I was initially pleased that our team, club and manager were getting the praise they deserve for their recent fine run of form. It is, afterall, not everyday that our beloved blues are given such long and flowing coverage in the national media.
However, having had some time to reflect on the article I feel that perhaps my initial pleasure was misplaced. The article firmly focuses on David Moyes and his abilities and progress as a manager. The Everton board are described as limpets clinging on to the valuable commodity that is the manager. The intonation here is surely that Moyes is bigger, or at least has the potential to be bigger, than Everton Football Club.
Limpets and barnacles are the unwanted, yet difficult to dispatch, creatures that slow down great sailing ships and reduce their capabilities. I am sure the analogy is not lost on a national journalist. Indeed, how often in recent times have we heard after the 2 minute highlights of our matches the pundits say something along the lines of ?it?s amazing what David Moyes has done with/at Everton?.
The club itself is seen as lacking in pedigree, so devoid of all positive virtues that it needs a ?Moyesiah? to save it. Perhaps it is merely a symptom of our times that the individual is seen as having the ultimate responsibility for success or failure. The systems that the club operates are relegated to secondary importance. We only need to look as far as last Saturday to find in the Guardian the recent stereotype of ?plucky little Everton? being perpetuated.
I am not writing to criticise Moyes but rather to see if fellow Everton fans fear that our club and its reputation are being sidelined as Moyes?s is enhanced in the anticipation that he will move on to Manchester United.
Ben Jones, Posted 18/02/2009 at 08:29:38
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I fear if one day Man Utd come knocking, he may well take the Rooney route (wouldn't that be fun them two working together again?); however, let's just enjoy the journey we are on at the minute and who knows where it may take us?
Whilst he has been excellent for Everton, we have been around a lot longer than Davie Boy and who's to say our next manager doesn't take us to the next level? Speaking of our next manager... Tim Cahill, anyone?
Ben Jones, you really have hit the nail on the head !
I read the article with growing pride, but left me with a sense of unease, but couldn’t really put my finger on it.
IMO, it has worked both ways. Moyes has been able to grow his reputation riding on a club management that has given him time to deliver and overcome his shortcomings. At the same time, Moyes has helped the club from the dark relegation threatened days to a consistent top-6 contender.
Imagine if Moyes had moved to Newcastle instead of Everton - he would have probably been sacked within 6 months, his reputation in tatters.
It would be churlish not to recognise the support that Moyes has received from the Board (arguably, to serve their own ends). And to be fair to Moyes, he has consistently recognised the support that he has received from BK and the board.
I read the article with growing pride, but left me with a sense of unease, but couldn’t really put my finger on it.
IMO, it has worked both ways. Moyes has been able to grow his reputation riding on a club management that has given him time to deliver and overcome his shortcomings. At the same time, Moyes has helped the club from the dark relegation threatened days to a consistent top-6 contender.
Imagine if Moyes had moved to Newcastle instead of Everton - he would have probably been sacked within 6 months, his reputation in tatters.
It would be churlish not to recognise the support that Moyes has received from the Board (arguably, to serve their own ends). And to be fair to Moyes, he has consistently recognised the support that he has received from BK and the board.
Ben, I applaud your article and agree that by implication the club is being damned with faint praise (or none at all). Although to be fair the whole Everton package is getting good press in fair minded media of late.
It was clearly Kenwright who chose Moyes. It was Kenwright who stuck with Moyes despite us finishing 17th and setting a new club record for bad results. It was also Kenwright who stuck with Moyes after we began the season with 8 defeats & just 1 goal in the first 9 league games, and lost 5-1 to a mediocre Romanian side.
So despite the current (very understandable) euphoria, it patently has not been all plain sailing and all upside with David Moyes with the club holding him back. We have also continues to break our transfer record (it?s bigger than Arsenal?s) and keep upping wages to keep our players.
As for Phil Harper
"If it wasn't for Moyes, Bill Kenwright would possibly have overseen the first relegation in 50 years and I don't even want to think about where we'd be now."
What?
"When we have an owner who truly has the clubs best interests at heart and can capitalise on our fantastic tradition and support then we may shake off the tag of being 'lucky' to have David Moyes.
So according to you Kenwright does not have Everton?s interests at heart & without Moyes we?d be relegated & into oblivion (as we, erm, nearly were with Moyes).
Wake up Phil & stop spouting such nonsense.
It was clearly Kenwright who chose Moyes. It was Kenwright who stuck with Moyes despite us finishing 17th and setting a new club record for bad results. It was also Kenwright who stuck with Moyes after we began the season with 8 defeats & just 1 goal in the first 9 league games, and lost 5-1 to a mediocre Romanian side.
So despite the current (very understandable) euphoria, it patently has not been all plain sailing and all upside with David Moyes with the club holding him back. We have also continues to break our transfer record (it?s bigger than Arsenal?s) and keep upping wages to keep our players.
As for Phil Harper
"If it wasn't for Moyes, Bill Kenwright would possibly have overseen the first relegation in 50 years and I don't even want to think about where we'd be now."
What?
"When we have an owner who truly has the clubs best interests at heart and can capitalise on our fantastic tradition and support then we may shake off the tag of being 'lucky' to have David Moyes.
So according to you Kenwright does not have Everton?s interests at heart & without Moyes we?d be relegated & into oblivion (as we, erm, nearly were with Moyes).
Wake up Phil & stop spouting such nonsense.
This is not a dig at David Moyes, as I think he has been a revelation here at the club, but ’if’ he were SO good, why are we not first? or even in the top 4?
It is not like Ferguson walked into a big club when he took over at United. He had to work for it. David Moyes is on a similar path here at Everton. The better Moyes GETS the better Everton will get.
David Moyes would be silly to leave for a top 4 club, to have all the high profile pressures of demanded successes. You only have to look how Scolari a ’world class’ manager coped.
Here at Everton Moyes is seen/thought to be handing a ’top 10’ club. So if he has a bad season he will not be sacked, or even frowned upon. He will (hopefully) learn from his mistakes and come back stronger. Just like Sir Alex at his own club.
It is not like Ferguson walked into a big club when he took over at United. He had to work for it. David Moyes is on a similar path here at Everton. The better Moyes GETS the better Everton will get.
David Moyes would be silly to leave for a top 4 club, to have all the high profile pressures of demanded successes. You only have to look how Scolari a ’world class’ manager coped.
Here at Everton Moyes is seen/thought to be handing a ’top 10’ club. So if he has a bad season he will not be sacked, or even frowned upon. He will (hopefully) learn from his mistakes and come back stronger. Just like Sir Alex at his own club.
Sir Alf Ramsey summed it up succinctly when he said that managers get too much criticism and too much praise.
Moyes has done very well for us and likewise we have done well for Moyes, whilst at Preston the only way he would have managed in the premier league would be through promotion, we took him as frankly none of the usual suspects would have touched us, we where a mess ! so we chanced on a lower division manager and it paid off. I think that our first bit of sucess came about by chance , ie lack of strikers so we played Tommy in a 5 man midfield and it worked, i also feel that some of our great buys weren’t first choice but came about through others turning us down, the emergence of Rooney and the money from his sale was also fortunate.
Now before people start thinking i’m a Moyes basher i am not, i rate him highly, but i am also realistic enough to know that luck has played a hand in our development.
As for the top clubs going for him i doubt that they would go for someone with as little european experiance and the fact that he has not won anything, if David was to go abroad ala Kendal to gain experiance i’m sure he would not get the lengh of tenure he would need. The only clubs that could tempt him and would want him might be the Glasgow giants. That is unless he wins the UEFA cup next season.
Now before people start thinking i’m a Moyes basher i am not, i rate him highly, but i am also realistic enough to know that luck has played a hand in our development.
As for the top clubs going for him i doubt that they would go for someone with as little european experiance and the fact that he has not won anything, if David was to go abroad ala Kendal to gain experiance i’m sure he would not get the lengh of tenure he would need. The only clubs that could tempt him and would want him might be the Glasgow giants. That is unless he wins the UEFA cup next season.
@ Brett
"It is not like Ferguson walked into a big club when he took over at United. He had to work for it..."
You’re avin a larf, surely! Man U were probably a bigger club in the 2nd Division than most of those they left behind in the 1st when they were relegated.
Yes he had a dodgy few years, and came very close to the sack, but he was still able to go out and buy players like Pallister (an act for whic he was pilloried by some).
The point you make tho’ is correct. Managers need time, and then some more!
"It is not like Ferguson walked into a big club when he took over at United. He had to work for it..."
You’re avin a larf, surely! Man U were probably a bigger club in the 2nd Division than most of those they left behind in the 1st when they were relegated.
Yes he had a dodgy few years, and came very close to the sack, but he was still able to go out and buy players like Pallister (an act for whic he was pilloried by some).
The point you make tho’ is correct. Managers need time, and then some more!
At least get my name right Alan. I am obviously not saying we would be relegated now if Moyes left, but we were headed for relegation with a pitiful team in March 2002, and would have gone down had not Walter Smith recommended David Moyes to Bill Kewright on his way out. You mention the transfer record being broken repeatedly, but look at the bigger picture. The net spend over the last few years has been about the 12th highest of the Premiership clubs, despite FOUR top six finishes. Why the discrepancy? Because the chairman and board do not know how to generate money, other than selling off assets. Everton have a very large fanbase in the UK, (I know loads just in Cardiff) but most of us struggle to find any Everton merchandise to buy. BK and company have spent 4 years so wrapped up in Kirkby that they can’t be bothered trying to get the Everton Brand out there in the shops making money. Apparently there’s not even a shop in Liverpool? Unbelievable.
Sorry Alan, but we are where we are despite Bill Kenwright and not because of him. And the balance sheets alone tell us that.
Sorry Alan, but we are where we are despite Bill Kenwright and not because of him. And the balance sheets alone tell us that.
Only continued improvement or the chance of success, plus off field development is what matters. No matter who the manager is. You only have to look at Portsmouth, Black burn, Sunderland and unbelievable Chelsea,
Spot on Phil!
If BK have had any money he wouldbe fired Moyes and brought somebody else in. The fact that he had no money to pay him off meant he couldnt. Which worked out well for "Patient Billy" becauseMoyes has always turned things around.
If only BK could manage the off pitch departments as succesful Moyes manage the staff on pitch
If BK have had any money he wouldbe fired Moyes and brought somebody else in. The fact that he had no money to pay him off meant he couldnt. Which worked out well for "Patient Billy" becauseMoyes has always turned things around.
If only BK could manage the off pitch departments as succesful Moyes manage the staff on pitch
The issue I attempted to address in my first post was the media obsession with praising Moyes and belittling the club. I was concerned by focus placed on the individual. Yet it would appear as if our own fanbase cannot see the club management, both off field on the playing side, as a cohesive whole. Moyes and Kenwright always present a united front yet the media seek to separate Moyes achievement from the club and it would appear a number of our own seek to separate Bill Kenwright from the clubs success. I would simply like to see more focus on the club as the dominant entity as opposed to personalities. That is after all how you build the brand.
Ben Jones, good post and equally salient addition above. You cannot separate Kenwright from our current success, equally you cannot know that "If BK had any money he would?ve fired Moyes". Speculation presented as fact doesn?t make it so, and life?s a bit more complicated than Moyes:good Kenwright:bad.
Not that I suppose anyone would even agree with that...
Not that I suppose anyone would even agree with that...
?I was concerned by focus placed on the individual?
As you say in your post, Ben, that?s basically a sign of the times we are in. The story of one man (or one woman) achieving great things is more exciting/uplifting/easier-to-grasp than the idea of a collective group struggling through together.
As you say in your post, Ben, that?s basically a sign of the times we are in. The story of one man (or one woman) achieving great things is more exciting/uplifting/easier-to-grasp than the idea of a collective group struggling through together.
Phil (Harmer)
Apologies for the misspelling. With regards to our net spend since whenever, you will find that Arsenal’s is close to, or possibly even lower than ours. You will also find that Arsenal’s record fee paid is less than ours. You will also find that Spurs is way higher than Arsenal’s and, in recent years, way higher than Chelsea’s.
So simply looking at net spend is close to irrelevant. You chose to give zero credit to Kenwright for anything. You are not alone on this forum. Yet I’m afraid you are spouting myopic rubbish. I can sympathise (a lot) with our screw-ups on marketing & brand, but that doesn’t disguise Kenwright;s contribution in steering the cub from basket case to regular attendees at the top table.
Under different stewardship Moyes would have been sacked on 3 or 4 separate occasions, regardless of our financial position. Under others he would never have been hired. We may also not have had the focus on youth that Kenwright not only spoke of but delivered with our scouting network and facilities at Finch Farm.
No-one is denying that things could be better off the pitch,or even on it occasionally. But please dont get your head too far up there to fail to see the contribution that others have made. Before Kenwright took over we were relegation favourites every year. We aspired to mediocrity. Our teams were invariably old and tired. Our youth system, Jeffers aside, was crap.
To suggest that Everton’s only upside in the last 6 years is solely down to Moyes is patent nonsense. He deserves all the plaudits going for what he has done. But nobody can do it alone.
Like I say, I agree that our merchandising record is nothing short of abysmal. But if you fail to allow Kenwright ANY credit whatsoever for our successes, I’m afraid your logic is beyond me in making him personally responsible for our failures. Perhaps you could explain this discrepancy?
I’d just like to reiterate that I thought Ben’s article & follow-up to be illuminating & thoroughly objective.
Apologies for the misspelling. With regards to our net spend since whenever, you will find that Arsenal’s is close to, or possibly even lower than ours. You will also find that Arsenal’s record fee paid is less than ours. You will also find that Spurs is way higher than Arsenal’s and, in recent years, way higher than Chelsea’s.
So simply looking at net spend is close to irrelevant. You chose to give zero credit to Kenwright for anything. You are not alone on this forum. Yet I’m afraid you are spouting myopic rubbish. I can sympathise (a lot) with our screw-ups on marketing & brand, but that doesn’t disguise Kenwright;s contribution in steering the cub from basket case to regular attendees at the top table.
Under different stewardship Moyes would have been sacked on 3 or 4 separate occasions, regardless of our financial position. Under others he would never have been hired. We may also not have had the focus on youth that Kenwright not only spoke of but delivered with our scouting network and facilities at Finch Farm.
No-one is denying that things could be better off the pitch,or even on it occasionally. But please dont get your head too far up there to fail to see the contribution that others have made. Before Kenwright took over we were relegation favourites every year. We aspired to mediocrity. Our teams were invariably old and tired. Our youth system, Jeffers aside, was crap.
To suggest that Everton’s only upside in the last 6 years is solely down to Moyes is patent nonsense. He deserves all the plaudits going for what he has done. But nobody can do it alone.
Like I say, I agree that our merchandising record is nothing short of abysmal. But if you fail to allow Kenwright ANY credit whatsoever for our successes, I’m afraid your logic is beyond me in making him personally responsible for our failures. Perhaps you could explain this discrepancy?
I’d just like to reiterate that I thought Ben’s article & follow-up to be illuminating & thoroughly objective.
Both Phils
Absolutely agree 100%.
THe only reason EFC are getting ANY positive media is because of Moyes and the players.
Just read what Joe Jordan says about Moyes to realise he is a totally dedicated and ambitious manager who brings pride and dignity to the club.
Compare that to Kenwright who has made us a laughing stock with his incompetence at board level and constant stream of lies and bullshit.
Half our fans are still "watching this space" for the investment he has been seeking "24/7" for the LAST 8 years.
And this constant blind pursuit of Kirkby will be the death of Everton as we know and love them.
The same people who say he appointed and stuck by Moyes don't also make the point that he stuck by Walter who he "Spoke to every day".
NOW that was when we had serious relegation worries!!
Absolutely agree 100%.
THe only reason EFC are getting ANY positive media is because of Moyes and the players.
Just read what Joe Jordan says about Moyes to realise he is a totally dedicated and ambitious manager who brings pride and dignity to the club.
Compare that to Kenwright who has made us a laughing stock with his incompetence at board level and constant stream of lies and bullshit.
Half our fans are still "watching this space" for the investment he has been seeking "24/7" for the LAST 8 years.
And this constant blind pursuit of Kirkby will be the death of Everton as we know and love them.
The same people who say he appointed and stuck by Moyes don't also make the point that he stuck by Walter who he "Spoke to every day".
NOW that was when we had serious relegation worries!!
Alan Kirwan
whilst I admire your steadfast defence of Kenwright I believe your trust is totally misplaced.
We operate with a tiny squad compared to Arsenal who regrettably have a much bigger name than us now because of they're early success in the Premier League.
We have only broken the transfer record twice which was only achieved through selling a number of players (including Rooney, Johnson, McFadden, Beattie etc.) and by taking the club to record debts.
Besides his constant stream of lies Kenwright has also had 4 chief execs in 8 years including appointing Wyness (With well known dubious history on his CV) and concerned shareholders so much that 2 EGMs have been called for due to serious concerns regarding the way the club was being run during his reign.
The bottom line is that Moyes has had less to spend net on average per year than any top 12 club manager despite inheriting a team of has beens or never was?s.
If Kenwright had achieved at operaqtions level a fraction of what Moyes has achieved we really would be going places.
As has been stated by many posters Moyes has achieved despite Bill Kenwright not because of him.
whilst I admire your steadfast defence of Kenwright I believe your trust is totally misplaced.
We operate with a tiny squad compared to Arsenal who regrettably have a much bigger name than us now because of they're early success in the Premier League.
We have only broken the transfer record twice which was only achieved through selling a number of players (including Rooney, Johnson, McFadden, Beattie etc.) and by taking the club to record debts.
Besides his constant stream of lies Kenwright has also had 4 chief execs in 8 years including appointing Wyness (With well known dubious history on his CV) and concerned shareholders so much that 2 EGMs have been called for due to serious concerns regarding the way the club was being run during his reign.
The bottom line is that Moyes has had less to spend net on average per year than any top 12 club manager despite inheriting a team of has beens or never was?s.
If Kenwright had achieved at operaqtions level a fraction of what Moyes has achieved we really would be going places.
As has been stated by many posters Moyes has achieved despite Bill Kenwright not because of him.
"Kenwright who has made us a laughing stock with his incompetence at board level and constant stream of lies and bullshit."
You must be ?avin? a laugh.
Laughing stock?
The RS and their owners are the farcical definition of laughing stock. United fans still hate their oddball billionaire owner who has plunged the club into collosal debt. Chelski will live or die at the whim of an increasingly bored looking Russian. City?s owners chuck money around but the club are still shite and top players still publicly give them the finger.
Nah, for all BK?s faults that may be apparent to us, Kirkby being the biggest, in the eyes of the media and other fans I?ve come across, Everton get nothing but praise for having a local boy and fan for a chairman, who knows not to pull the trigger on his manager at the drop of a hat.
Criticise him by all means but from the outside looking in BK is a credit to EFC.
You must be ?avin? a laugh.
Laughing stock?
The RS and their owners are the farcical definition of laughing stock. United fans still hate their oddball billionaire owner who has plunged the club into collosal debt. Chelski will live or die at the whim of an increasingly bored looking Russian. City?s owners chuck money around but the club are still shite and top players still publicly give them the finger.
Nah, for all BK?s faults that may be apparent to us, Kirkby being the biggest, in the eyes of the media and other fans I?ve come across, Everton get nothing but praise for having a local boy and fan for a chairman, who knows not to pull the trigger on his manager at the drop of a hat.
Criticise him by all means but from the outside looking in BK is a credit to EFC.
It is so very strange that when Aston Villa are praised and hyped it is as a Club not just O?Neill or Lerner, when LFC are in crisis it is almost always glossed over as a Hick-Up or a bout of Spanish Craziness.
The media cannot or will not EVER praise Everton Football Club , maybe it?s because we are an archetypical Scouse club and those with anti-Merseyside sentiments find it impossible to praise the club.
If we don?t put a trophy in the cabinet and miss out on Europe those same journos can re-hash the ?cash-strapped? small club routine whilst remaining true to David Moyes and trotting out what a fantastic job he has done at such a little club. If we win the FA Cup we will have yet again overachieved thanks to the mastery of David Moyes. If West Ham get past Boro, expect the southern journos to go overboard about Zola and his Happy Hammers.
By the time Sir Alax steps down, I believe Everton will have already have broken into the top 4. I think Moyes would prefer to carry on his good work and finish the job. I would imagine he has a great relationship with his players and staff and his loyalty would prevent him moving on.
In any case, I think it would be Moyes's ambition to create his own dynasty with his own team made in his own image and try to surpass the achievements of Sir Alex and Shankly, who probably have had the most influence on Moyes.
In any case, I think it would be Moyes's ambition to create his own dynasty with his own team made in his own image and try to surpass the achievements of Sir Alex and Shankly, who probably have had the most influence on Moyes.
For the people who always critisice Bill Kenwright (the guy who nearly bankrupt himself to buy EFC) I have two questions:
1. Who has BK ever stopped from giving money to EFC?
2. Who has BK ever stopped from buying EFC? I personally don?t think he has done either but the people that do must come up with names and figs. They seem to do so with every other rumour!!!
Have Everton finally appeared on the media radar as a real threat to the Sky 4? This artical in the Daily Mirror suggests it has:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/columnists/dan-silver/2009/02/17/why-david-moyes-is-the-only-man-who-can-stop-a-domestic-clean-sweep-for-manchester-united-115875-21130696/
As a Blue for forty-three years, who?s lived in Liverpool, Bristol, Barcelona, Toulouse, Dublin and now the wilds of Meath, and who?s had fevered conversations about Everton with the natives of every one of those locales, I think I can confirm that outside perception of Everton is NOT that of a "small club". The reason El Gordo?s ?small club? comment aroused such comment was that it was so out of kilter with perceived reality.
And the reason Moyes and Kenwright are currently coming under such approving scrutiny is that ? post-credit crunch ? the grandes dames of the Premiership are starting to feel chill winds whistling beneath their skirts, and remembering they are wearing no knickers.
Consequently, with the Everton youth policy starting to bear fruit in the shape of Rodwell, Baxter and company, Moyes and Kenwright are starting to be cast as visionaries. I?m not suggesting that either of them foresaw the financial collapse of western civilization (such as it is) ? just that they knew Everton would have to batten down the financial hatches. This is now looking visionary, rather than just prudent.
To paraphrase Rudyard Kipling, if you can act sensibly when the rest of the Premier League are buying, hiring and firing on a monthly basis, and calling press conferences that make themselves look like prongs, then you?ll get a reputation for good sense.
It ain?t rocket science.
And the reason Moyes and Kenwright are currently coming under such approving scrutiny is that ? post-credit crunch ? the grandes dames of the Premiership are starting to feel chill winds whistling beneath their skirts, and remembering they are wearing no knickers.
Consequently, with the Everton youth policy starting to bear fruit in the shape of Rodwell, Baxter and company, Moyes and Kenwright are starting to be cast as visionaries. I?m not suggesting that either of them foresaw the financial collapse of western civilization (such as it is) ? just that they knew Everton would have to batten down the financial hatches. This is now looking visionary, rather than just prudent.
To paraphrase Rudyard Kipling, if you can act sensibly when the rest of the Premier League are buying, hiring and firing on a monthly basis, and calling press conferences that make themselves look like prongs, then you?ll get a reputation for good sense.
It ain?t rocket science.
Ben, unfortunately your piece is a very selective misreading of James Lawton?s original article. You give the impression that Lawton gives all the credit to Moyes, and none to the Board. You might try to read it again ? this is far from the case. For example, you will find that Lawton says of the Board: "Thet are entitled to at least some of that distinction... of looking like absolute paragons of good football sense".
Like many other very positive articles on our club recently, the club as a whole, including Kenwright, are getting very wide praise for being very sensibly and stably run.
The Mad Kenwright Haters will no doubt continue in their collective insanity. Most other people, both in and outside the club, can see that it would be absurd not to give some credit to Kenwright and the Board for creating the stable platform on which Moyes and the players have so ably built. Especially in comparison to the majority of clubs in the Premiership whose Boards have created the exact opposite of stability ? much to the cost of their clubs.
Like many other very positive articles on our club recently, the club as a whole, including Kenwright, are getting very wide praise for being very sensibly and stably run.
The Mad Kenwright Haters will no doubt continue in their collective insanity. Most other people, both in and outside the club, can see that it would be absurd not to give some credit to Kenwright and the Board for creating the stable platform on which Moyes and the players have so ably built. Especially in comparison to the majority of clubs in the Premiership whose Boards have created the exact opposite of stability ? much to the cost of their clubs.
Is this the same stability that totally wrecked our pre-season and start to the season with everyone and his dog calling for somebody?s head because we were a "Laughing stock" who couldn?t make one decent signing, who had just had our 3rd recent chief exec resign and whose chairman and new mouthpiece insist on DK at all costs despite the protests of a large number of Evertonians.
Oh some of you guys are so fickle.
By all means let's enjoy our current success and be grateful for the confidence it is breeding amongs players and fans but DO NOT paper over the cracks in the boardroom.
Oh some of you guys are so fickle.
By all means let's enjoy our current success and be grateful for the confidence it is breeding amongs players and fans but DO NOT paper over the cracks in the boardroom.
Alan Kirwin good article and response to the anti-Kenwright faction. Sorry, Phil Hamer, I can?t agree with your assesment and Jay Harris, your post is rubbish...
Jay Harris
Sorry mate, you’re talking nonsense. And you still haven’t answered my question about why you hold Kenwright personally responsible for all our failures, but give him no credit whatsoever for our successes.
You, and you Kenwright hating fraternity need to seriously wake up. I almost wish that we’d get some faceless billionaire to turn our club into a circus act, just to prove how stupid your philosophy is. But I feel too much for my club (sorry, our club) and prefer the way we currently do things, and the chairman who is far from perfect but closer to it than almost any other chairman I can think of.
Sorry Jay, you’ve latched on to a Kenwright witch hunt and are very misguided. Would you prefer Peter Johnson? or do you have a list of Arabian Evertonian billionaires who have the money and empathy to do whatever it is you think is necessary to move on?
What is it exactly that you want from the board / club / chairman? Apart from getting rid of Bill Kenwright that is.
Sorry mate, you’re talking nonsense. And you still haven’t answered my question about why you hold Kenwright personally responsible for all our failures, but give him no credit whatsoever for our successes.
You, and you Kenwright hating fraternity need to seriously wake up. I almost wish that we’d get some faceless billionaire to turn our club into a circus act, just to prove how stupid your philosophy is. But I feel too much for my club (sorry, our club) and prefer the way we currently do things, and the chairman who is far from perfect but closer to it than almost any other chairman I can think of.
Sorry Jay, you’ve latched on to a Kenwright witch hunt and are very misguided. Would you prefer Peter Johnson? or do you have a list of Arabian Evertonian billionaires who have the money and empathy to do whatever it is you think is necessary to move on?
What is it exactly that you want from the board / club / chairman? Apart from getting rid of Bill Kenwright that is.
It?s very interesting that the Bill-haters I know are exactly the ones who were calling for Moyes?s head when he was struggling, and who are now giving him all the credit for our latest revival. Also, some of this current success is certainly built on the youth set up, now based at the beacon academy of Finch Farm. We never hear Blue Bill take credit for this, but if he can?t, then who can?
Sick to death of hearing stick about Bill. We?re having another good season, we broke the transfer record again in the summer, our youth set-up is the envy of the country, and other ?big money clubs? are struggling. So, what?s the problem with Bill again?!?
BK told the players at Moyes?s darkest hour, amid reports of having lost the dressing room, that "I?ll be here as long as David Moyes is here". So, yeah, Bill CAN take a lot of credit for Moyes, just as he took the blame when things weren't going so well.
Bill haters should put up or shut up - simple as!
Phil said "the chairman and board do not know how to generate money, other than selling off assets. Everton have a very large fanbase in the UK, (I know loads just in Cardiff) but most of us struggle to find any Everton merchandise to buy. BK and company have spent 4 years so wrapped up in Kirkby that they can?t be bothered trying to get the Everton Brand out there in the shops making money. Apparently there?s not even a shop in Liverpool?"
Wow, nice research, you met loads of Evertonians in Cardiff eh? Can?t believe we?re not richer than Man U off the back of that! As it happens, Bill managed to negotiate a deal with the UK's biggest sports outlet JJB, making us their number one club re merchandise, even though we?re not a ?big 4?.
He took over the club in deeply serious financial trouble, and it?s now one of the very few clubs that actually manages to break even without a sugar daddy ? even though he is still actively seeking one out.
By the way, what assets has he sold off? You mean you preferred Bellefield to Finch Farm?
Phil, get off Bill?s back. Without him, we?d have gone bankrupt in the Second Division with agent Johnson selling off whatever was left.
Devil?s advocate, guys, but I?m pretty sure the emergence of youth this season has been through necessity rather than choice. Luckily we have decent kids coming through but surely they had to be played rather than were selected as we are potless as a club and simply couldn?t buy the squad players we need?
Alan, in response to the anti-Bill defences, he surely must be held accountable for the way the off-field activities are being ran? The bread and butter football that the fans know is under the control of DM. We all should now know that the lion?s share of income generation is off-field activities as quoted over and over at various stages of the DK inquiry ? yet he has still failed to deliver. He is ultimately responsible for Everton as a business and that business is failing with increasing debts and reliance on next year?s Sky money every season.
The Man Utd fans that despise their owner must be so upset at their continuing success on and off the field, Villa fans must be gutted at Randy Lerner?s stewardship and their current position? The Man City and RS situation are equally opposite poles of badly run business ? irrelevant of money, they are being ran badly; Man City, the board trying to choose players rather than the manager; and the RS, a power struggle between Benitez and the chairman.
Alan, in response to the anti-Bill defences, he surely must be held accountable for the way the off-field activities are being ran? The bread and butter football that the fans know is under the control of DM. We all should now know that the lion?s share of income generation is off-field activities as quoted over and over at various stages of the DK inquiry ? yet he has still failed to deliver. He is ultimately responsible for Everton as a business and that business is failing with increasing debts and reliance on next year?s Sky money every season.
The Man Utd fans that despise their owner must be so upset at their continuing success on and off the field, Villa fans must be gutted at Randy Lerner?s stewardship and their current position? The Man City and RS situation are equally opposite poles of badly run business ? irrelevant of money, they are being ran badly; Man City, the board trying to choose players rather than the manager; and the RS, a power struggle between Benitez and the chairman.
@ Pete Jones
Speaking of poor research I can find a pot and am now looking for a kettle!
JJB recently identified the description of their own client base as wearing tracksuit bottoms and being on the dole. Them being the UK’s biggest, does not make them the UK’s best. BK (principally it was actually KW) put all of these eggs into that basket, resulting in the closure of the city centre store and the one in Birkenhead (that was opened from time to time on a periodic basis - never understood the point of that or the message it sent to our fanbase, let alone others). JB have undertaken market research and decided, in spite of the RS’s presence in the city centre’s Liverpool One, Everton would not have the sales to justify having a stand alone store. Of course we wouldn’t as long as we are willing to lie down and not even represent ourselves. Even as a loss leader it is a must, surely. How the Hell are we supposed to get new support if we make it difficult to get people wearing the shirts?
We were selected to be sold in JJB stores but ONLY in the Merseyside area so we are not even remotely competing with the Sky 4 in that respect. I recently moved from Peterborough to Chelmsford and can testify that you will not find Everton kits in JJB, or any other sports store, in either city. It is difficult to find our merchandise in London for God’s sake! Newcastle, Tottenham & West Ham are the easiest non-Sky 4 teams to buy merchandies out of their own geographical areas in my experience. I believe that argument can now be firmly put to bed.
Next, we repeatedly break the transfer record. Correct, but as a previous poster points out, we pool the sale of several players from what is already pretty much the most threadbare squad in the Premiership to fund a single purchase. This is not sustainable and those who imply it is the way forward are clearly being duped by the big money but oblivious to the squad implications. I cannot dispute it seems to be working well for us but we cannot keep depleting our resource.
A monumental cock up is that of Bellfield. Yes Finch Farm is incredible and no doubt the envy of most British clubs but it is rented and we sit on land that we own but, because of our other ’all eggs in one questionable basket’ that is DK we cannot use the land as we wish to make some money back.
Ironically, I support BK just as you do and think the BK haters are unfair in not giving him due credit for the successes. However, I needed to make a point of order as you (in my opinion rather harshly) accuse somebody else of poor research and yet are clearly guilty of very much the same. Nobody is 100% right or 100% wrong - except, perhaps KW and thankfully we are well rid of that one!
Speaking of poor research I can find a pot and am now looking for a kettle!
JJB recently identified the description of their own client base as wearing tracksuit bottoms and being on the dole. Them being the UK’s biggest, does not make them the UK’s best. BK (principally it was actually KW) put all of these eggs into that basket, resulting in the closure of the city centre store and the one in Birkenhead (that was opened from time to time on a periodic basis - never understood the point of that or the message it sent to our fanbase, let alone others). JB have undertaken market research and decided, in spite of the RS’s presence in the city centre’s Liverpool One, Everton would not have the sales to justify having a stand alone store. Of course we wouldn’t as long as we are willing to lie down and not even represent ourselves. Even as a loss leader it is a must, surely. How the Hell are we supposed to get new support if we make it difficult to get people wearing the shirts?
We were selected to be sold in JJB stores but ONLY in the Merseyside area so we are not even remotely competing with the Sky 4 in that respect. I recently moved from Peterborough to Chelmsford and can testify that you will not find Everton kits in JJB, or any other sports store, in either city. It is difficult to find our merchandise in London for God’s sake! Newcastle, Tottenham & West Ham are the easiest non-Sky 4 teams to buy merchandies out of their own geographical areas in my experience. I believe that argument can now be firmly put to bed.
Next, we repeatedly break the transfer record. Correct, but as a previous poster points out, we pool the sale of several players from what is already pretty much the most threadbare squad in the Premiership to fund a single purchase. This is not sustainable and those who imply it is the way forward are clearly being duped by the big money but oblivious to the squad implications. I cannot dispute it seems to be working well for us but we cannot keep depleting our resource.
A monumental cock up is that of Bellfield. Yes Finch Farm is incredible and no doubt the envy of most British clubs but it is rented and we sit on land that we own but, because of our other ’all eggs in one questionable basket’ that is DK we cannot use the land as we wish to make some money back.
Ironically, I support BK just as you do and think the BK haters are unfair in not giving him due credit for the successes. However, I needed to make a point of order as you (in my opinion rather harshly) accuse somebody else of poor research and yet are clearly guilty of very much the same. Nobody is 100% right or 100% wrong - except, perhaps KW and thankfully we are well rid of that one!
I have to disagree with your original post, Ben! In the last few days since the Villa and probably since the Liverpool cup win, I have read praising articles on Lescott, Arteta, Cahill and Jagielka in the national press. All the players don't need confidence boosts but it will help them to read these. Moyes deservedly gets credit as to should Kenright who stuck with him through the bad times.
Something I look at with promise is that each year we add to the squad, even if it isn't 'til the last minute of each transfer window, and each season, bar the odd slip-up, we seem to be getting closer to the top four. I do think Moyes will be offered the Man Utd job and I think will think very long and hard about it. But as long as we keep improving and keep our big name players both current and future on big contracts then DM may think he has a chance to push on to succeed in the PL.
I hope for one he stays for another 10 years at least but I think in 2-3 years time the team from down the East Lancs will come calling and that could be a defining moment in Everton's modern day history.
Lee
The JJB tie-in and our marketing in general is widely regarded as ridiculously poor, that?s true of pro & anti Kenwright people.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with leasing land, and particularly for commercial operations. The vast majority of businesses lease for solid commercial reasons. It avoids the wasting of valuable capital and is extremely tax advantageous.
Bellefield is not a cock-up. In many objective eyes the refusal of planning permission is nonsense. It?s not as though Bellefield is a beautiful Victorian park that we are planning to savage. It is private & secluded land not currently available for public use. EFC?s plans for Bellefield were well considered and, commercially, both correct and smart.
I am bored to tears of reading the same tedious whining old records about Kenwright this, Kenwright that, bla bla bla. Anybody would think that this man has come in and converted a successful football club into relegation fodder (it?s the other way round) and that he?s taken the club for everything he can get, asset stripped it and faced the bank calling in our debts because we?re a basket case (that was Peter Johnson, from whom Kenwright rescued the club & mortgaged his house to do so).
I guess it?s like life in general. Some people just need to blame someone for everything bad & give no credit when things aren?t too bad. The grass is not always greener, despite what the doom sayers think, EFC is an admired institution by many intelligent & informed observers.
Sadly, it is clearly going to take some rich, but detached, wanker to buy Everton and start making bids for Messi etc, before the anti-Kenwright mob begin to appreciate what they had. Too many people know the price of everything, but the value of nothing.
I?ll wager that if you sat down with reasonably intelligent fans from Spurs, Newcastle, West Ham, Chelsea and others, and asked them which club do they admire the most then you may be surprised at the answer.
And the reason I?m so confident is that I already know these guys and for sometime we have been the club (note! not just Moyes, but the club) that they perceive as ticking all or most of the boxes. The value of a chairman who patently has the club's best interests at heart, despite not being a billionaire, who stands by his managers through thick and thin (and we have had thin), is not lost on these guys.
What a pity it is completely lost on some Evertonians who still think we are somehow deserving of more of everything. The saddest thing of all will be the day that we start re-filling the trophy cabinet and reclaiming a place at the top table. I can just see the posts now, FA cup winners, CL semi finalists, etc and still they shout that it?s all Kenwright?s fault and if it wasn?t for him then we?d......what?
I hope Robert Elstone is able to transform our branding & marketing. And I desperately hope that the stadium issue is resolved somehow to our true advantage. If it is then it goes without saying that Kenwright will get no credit for appointing Elstone or for finally delivering on something that has been on the table for a lot longer than he?s been chairman.
This is the best I have felt as an Evertonian for over 20 years and I can assure you it is not all down to David Moyes. EFC has a good chairman, a good CEO, a good manager, a good youth academy and a good scouting network. We?re going places as a club. I?m happy because, whilst it could be better, it could be one hell of a lot worse. Just ask Spurs fans how they have enjoyed having all that money available... and the expectations & intolerance that are part of the same package.
The JJB tie-in and our marketing in general is widely regarded as ridiculously poor, that?s true of pro & anti Kenwright people.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with leasing land, and particularly for commercial operations. The vast majority of businesses lease for solid commercial reasons. It avoids the wasting of valuable capital and is extremely tax advantageous.
Bellefield is not a cock-up. In many objective eyes the refusal of planning permission is nonsense. It?s not as though Bellefield is a beautiful Victorian park that we are planning to savage. It is private & secluded land not currently available for public use. EFC?s plans for Bellefield were well considered and, commercially, both correct and smart.
I am bored to tears of reading the same tedious whining old records about Kenwright this, Kenwright that, bla bla bla. Anybody would think that this man has come in and converted a successful football club into relegation fodder (it?s the other way round) and that he?s taken the club for everything he can get, asset stripped it and faced the bank calling in our debts because we?re a basket case (that was Peter Johnson, from whom Kenwright rescued the club & mortgaged his house to do so).
I guess it?s like life in general. Some people just need to blame someone for everything bad & give no credit when things aren?t too bad. The grass is not always greener, despite what the doom sayers think, EFC is an admired institution by many intelligent & informed observers.
Sadly, it is clearly going to take some rich, but detached, wanker to buy Everton and start making bids for Messi etc, before the anti-Kenwright mob begin to appreciate what they had. Too many people know the price of everything, but the value of nothing.
I?ll wager that if you sat down with reasonably intelligent fans from Spurs, Newcastle, West Ham, Chelsea and others, and asked them which club do they admire the most then you may be surprised at the answer.
And the reason I?m so confident is that I already know these guys and for sometime we have been the club (note! not just Moyes, but the club) that they perceive as ticking all or most of the boxes. The value of a chairman who patently has the club's best interests at heart, despite not being a billionaire, who stands by his managers through thick and thin (and we have had thin), is not lost on these guys.
What a pity it is completely lost on some Evertonians who still think we are somehow deserving of more of everything. The saddest thing of all will be the day that we start re-filling the trophy cabinet and reclaiming a place at the top table. I can just see the posts now, FA cup winners, CL semi finalists, etc and still they shout that it?s all Kenwright?s fault and if it wasn?t for him then we?d......what?
I hope Robert Elstone is able to transform our branding & marketing. And I desperately hope that the stadium issue is resolved somehow to our true advantage. If it is then it goes without saying that Kenwright will get no credit for appointing Elstone or for finally delivering on something that has been on the table for a lot longer than he?s been chairman.
This is the best I have felt as an Evertonian for over 20 years and I can assure you it is not all down to David Moyes. EFC has a good chairman, a good CEO, a good manager, a good youth academy and a good scouting network. We?re going places as a club. I?m happy because, whilst it could be better, it could be one hell of a lot worse. Just ask Spurs fans how they have enjoyed having all that money available... and the expectations & intolerance that are part of the same package.
Alan, Pete,
You defend BK, but WHAT has he done in the last 8 years???? He employed DM ? granted. But that was 7 years ago! Since, his strategy has been to borrow money off personal friends. What a friggin joke. When they wouldn't lend him anymore (this summer), he was in the shit.
You defend BK, but WHAT has he done in the last 8 years???? He employed DM ? granted. But that was 7 years ago! Since, his strategy has been to borrow money off personal friends. What a friggin joke. When they wouldn't lend him anymore (this summer), he was in the shit.
As chairman he employs the CEO and therefore takes full responsibility for corporate/marketing and commercial performance on this club. Let's not fuck about, our performance in these areas is fucking atrocious. No amount of "but he loves the club", "he?s one of us", "he has good intentions" compensates for the fuck-ups in this area of our club. Moyes has been successful despite our amateur off-pitch team.
Someone said in a previous post that the RS would rather have someone like BK than those Yanks. Yes, those Yanks are a joke, but given they bought Torres, Babel, Kuyt, Keane etc they have some ambition. No way RS would want Billy "£5M net spend, Hello Sir Phillip, can I have my pocket money for the next season?" Kenwrong.
Jay, BK sacked Walter didn?t he?
Alan, Well said.
Alan, Well said.
Everyone, All seem to agree that Moyes is honest,truthful and principled. Moyes says that he trusts BK so what is the issue? Surely Moyes is in the best position to judge.
@ Alan
Did you actually read the whole of my submission before going on your spleen-venting spree? I thought not. Try again, eh?
Also, I do not, nor have I ever, questioned the validity or corporate value of leasing over purchasing. I did, however, clarify a previous confusion over the allegation of ?selling the family silver? where Bellefield was concerned. It was, in my opinion ? note I offer opinions as just that rather than ramming them down the throat of others disguised as fact ? an error to presume LCC would allow the necessary permissions without suitable investigations, particularly when being so blatantly at odds with them on the stadium issue.
Now that I have clarified this minor confusion, perhaps you will take my suggestion an re-read my prior post stating that overall I actually support BK. I consider him to be a great asset to the club, in spite of errors I believe he has made and times I have had reservations. Please be careful to whom you direct your generic ?I am sick of people like you...? whinges at next time. Deep breath and prepare to receive next rant.....
Did you actually read the whole of my submission before going on your spleen-venting spree? I thought not. Try again, eh?
Also, I do not, nor have I ever, questioned the validity or corporate value of leasing over purchasing. I did, however, clarify a previous confusion over the allegation of ?selling the family silver? where Bellefield was concerned. It was, in my opinion ? note I offer opinions as just that rather than ramming them down the throat of others disguised as fact ? an error to presume LCC would allow the necessary permissions without suitable investigations, particularly when being so blatantly at odds with them on the stadium issue.
Now that I have clarified this minor confusion, perhaps you will take my suggestion an re-read my prior post stating that overall I actually support BK. I consider him to be a great asset to the club, in spite of errors I believe he has made and times I have had reservations. Please be careful to whom you direct your generic ?I am sick of people like you...? whinges at next time. Deep breath and prepare to receive next rant.....
Lee
Dear me. I did read your post in full. I suggest you follow your own advice and read mine. If you do;
You will note that there is only one issue on which I disagree with you, namely Bellefield. IMHO and in the opinion of a number if qualified commentators, EFC’s plans & expectations are wholly reasonable. Your use of the term "cock up" is, in my view, unfair.
I noted your support or ambivalence regarding Kenwright. This I am very surprised that you took offence to my views therein. They are considered views aimed at persistent mal-contents who’s sole contributions are focused on slagging off Kenwright.
Your extraordinary vituperous response to that post Is surprising & confusing. And given the aggressive interpretation it places on my "rant" as you call it, there is more than a whiff of rank hypocrisy.
So we disagree on Bellefield. What’s the problem?
So you’re not anti Kenwright. Again, what’s the problem?
Sounds like almost violent agreement to me. My post was 99% not aimed at you. Perhaps a re-reading will help.
Dear me. I did read your post in full. I suggest you follow your own advice and read mine. If you do;
You will note that there is only one issue on which I disagree with you, namely Bellefield. IMHO and in the opinion of a number if qualified commentators, EFC’s plans & expectations are wholly reasonable. Your use of the term "cock up" is, in my view, unfair.
I noted your support or ambivalence regarding Kenwright. This I am very surprised that you took offence to my views therein. They are considered views aimed at persistent mal-contents who’s sole contributions are focused on slagging off Kenwright.
Your extraordinary vituperous response to that post Is surprising & confusing. And given the aggressive interpretation it places on my "rant" as you call it, there is more than a whiff of rank hypocrisy.
So we disagree on Bellefield. What’s the problem?
So you’re not anti Kenwright. Again, what’s the problem?
Sounds like almost violent agreement to me. My post was 99% not aimed at you. Perhaps a re-reading will help.
Good thread I think, and partly because it has clarified what this Kenwright debate is about.
On the one side are people (I include myself in this, Alan too) who think that Kenwright is far from perfect, can be very legitimately criticised (e.g. over merchandising), but think that he should get SOME CREDIT where credit is due. That?s all. SOME CREDIT. Despite some hiccups, he has created a very stable club which (like it or not) is praised in the media and is the envy of many other fans.
On the other side are fellow fans who will give NO CREDIT WHATSOEVER to Kenwright for anything good whatsoever that has happened at the club over the last decade ? picking Moyes, sticking by him, Finch Farm, youth support, finding money for major new signings, not indeed selling us to some fly-by-night new owner simply to line his own pockets etc.. Indeed, from the more extreme cases is the view that Kenwright is almost uniquely villainous and despicable.
Of course the rest of the footballing world would simply be stunned and amazed by this thread. In a world of boardrooms and owners including those at Liverpool, Newcastle, Portsmouth, West Ham, Spurs, Man City... to read the constant and extreme villification of Kenwright and the Everton Board would leave them wondering whether certain supporters had simply taken leave of their senses. Or could tell something with some pretty positive features when it was right in front of their eyes.
On the one side are people (I include myself in this, Alan too) who think that Kenwright is far from perfect, can be very legitimately criticised (e.g. over merchandising), but think that he should get SOME CREDIT where credit is due. That?s all. SOME CREDIT. Despite some hiccups, he has created a very stable club which (like it or not) is praised in the media and is the envy of many other fans.
On the other side are fellow fans who will give NO CREDIT WHATSOEVER to Kenwright for anything good whatsoever that has happened at the club over the last decade ? picking Moyes, sticking by him, Finch Farm, youth support, finding money for major new signings, not indeed selling us to some fly-by-night new owner simply to line his own pockets etc.. Indeed, from the more extreme cases is the view that Kenwright is almost uniquely villainous and despicable.
Of course the rest of the footballing world would simply be stunned and amazed by this thread. In a world of boardrooms and owners including those at Liverpool, Newcastle, Portsmouth, West Ham, Spurs, Man City... to read the constant and extreme villification of Kenwright and the Everton Board would leave them wondering whether certain supporters had simply taken leave of their senses. Or could tell something with some pretty positive features when it was right in front of their eyes.
Neil Pearse,
I guess I?d fall into your second category of fans. However, my argument is that, yes, BK employed DM. But that was 6-7 years ago, IMO he has been simply unsuccessful ever since. Yes, he stuck by Moyes when times were tough, but had he had any cash then he may have sacked Moyes. Who knows. Luckily DM proved his worth and made Bk look astute.
I guess I?d fall into your second category of fans. However, my argument is that, yes, BK employed DM. But that was 6-7 years ago, IMO he has been simply unsuccessful ever since. Yes, he stuck by Moyes when times were tough, but had he had any cash then he may have sacked Moyes. Who knows. Luckily DM proved his worth and made Bk look astute.
Finch Farm, while a success, is simply a youth academy. Other clubs like Arsenal, West Ham, Utd, RS, fucking Crewe Alex all had youth academies many years before us. So you can hardly class that as some revolutionary new concept nutured by BK. It was something that has to be done at every self-respecting top club. As for finding money for new signings, how does borrowing cash from your mates class as successful?
Imagine any major company owner admitting to running his business on funds borrowed from personal friends because they were unable to attract investment normally. As the Glazers and Lerner have proved, not all foreign investors are fly by night investors. Not having a ?local? owner does not mean your club goes down the shitter.
For me theres been to many letdowns; Small (bottom 8 Premier League sized) transfer budgets, Kings Dock, Kirkby, Wyness, Fake transfer bids, Closing all EFC stores, "Watch this space",Trevor Birch, Sports Fortress Fund, "Goodison is crumbling", "I wouldnt sell Rooney for £50M"...etc etc
Phil, we disagree, and I see your post as simply another attempt to avoid giving any credit to Kenwright at any cost. Whatever absurd assumptions you have to make. Let?s take a few examples directly from your post.
"Had he had any cash he may have sacked Moyes". This is silly. First of all, what you say implies that Kenwright really WANTED to sack Moyes ? but he couldn?t afford to. Any evidence for this belief? Any reason not to believe that Kenwright was sticking by Moyes because he thought he was a good manager for Everton who would come good? On the cash point, any payoff to Moyes was scarcely going to be huge, so if Kenwright thought Moyes was likely to relegate the club (it seems he didn?t), this is not a consideration.
"Luckily DM proved his worth and made BK look astute". Again, you are betraying your cast iron unshakeable anti-Kenwright assumptions out of your own mouth. Just read what you wrote again. Why not assume that BK stuck by Moyes because he thought he was a good manager and, on this ground at least, he IS astute?
"As for finding money for new signings, how does borrrowing cash from your mates count as successful". So, if Kenwright buys Yakubu and Fellaini with his own money, or with money perhaps from Barclays, that?s okay? But if he is well-connected and persuasive enought to get money from his friends, that isn?t? Can you explain that one to me? The reality is ? wherever he got the money from ? Yakubu and Fellaini are now Everton players, and surely that?s what counts? No? (I trust you will be writing to Bill to tell him that you would rather we didn?t buy Jo or Moutinho this summer if the money comes from Philip Green.)
Your blinkered and churlish attitude to Kenwright is shown again on your comments on Finch Farm and the youth academy. Kenwright gets no credit because we should have had one already anyway. Phil: we didn?t have one; now (under Kenwright?s stewardship) we have arguably one of the best in the country. Like the players ? isn?t that what counts?
Phil, I admire your exercise in heroism here. Because you have already decided that Kenwright is guilty on all counts, and can get no credit for anything, you have to try REALLY hard to explain away all good things that have happened under his period in office. You didn?t at least go for the most obviously silly example quoted here: that Kenwright deserves no credit even for selecting Moyes, because Walter Smith recommended him. (So Kenwright was legally bound to accept all Smith?s recommendations??)
Why not make your life a little easier? Why not acknowledge that ? at least on a few counts ? Kenwright has actually been a positive force at our football club? Is it that hard?
"Had he had any cash he may have sacked Moyes". This is silly. First of all, what you say implies that Kenwright really WANTED to sack Moyes ? but he couldn?t afford to. Any evidence for this belief? Any reason not to believe that Kenwright was sticking by Moyes because he thought he was a good manager for Everton who would come good? On the cash point, any payoff to Moyes was scarcely going to be huge, so if Kenwright thought Moyes was likely to relegate the club (it seems he didn?t), this is not a consideration.
"Luckily DM proved his worth and made BK look astute". Again, you are betraying your cast iron unshakeable anti-Kenwright assumptions out of your own mouth. Just read what you wrote again. Why not assume that BK stuck by Moyes because he thought he was a good manager and, on this ground at least, he IS astute?
"As for finding money for new signings, how does borrrowing cash from your mates count as successful". So, if Kenwright buys Yakubu and Fellaini with his own money, or with money perhaps from Barclays, that?s okay? But if he is well-connected and persuasive enought to get money from his friends, that isn?t? Can you explain that one to me? The reality is ? wherever he got the money from ? Yakubu and Fellaini are now Everton players, and surely that?s what counts? No? (I trust you will be writing to Bill to tell him that you would rather we didn?t buy Jo or Moutinho this summer if the money comes from Philip Green.)
Your blinkered and churlish attitude to Kenwright is shown again on your comments on Finch Farm and the youth academy. Kenwright gets no credit because we should have had one already anyway. Phil: we didn?t have one; now (under Kenwright?s stewardship) we have arguably one of the best in the country. Like the players ? isn?t that what counts?
Phil, I admire your exercise in heroism here. Because you have already decided that Kenwright is guilty on all counts, and can get no credit for anything, you have to try REALLY hard to explain away all good things that have happened under his period in office. You didn?t at least go for the most obviously silly example quoted here: that Kenwright deserves no credit even for selecting Moyes, because Walter Smith recommended him. (So Kenwright was legally bound to accept all Smith?s recommendations??)
Why not make your life a little easier? Why not acknowledge that ? at least on a few counts ? Kenwright has actually been a positive force at our football club? Is it that hard?
Neil
Stop being so bloody reasonable you bastard! :-) I fear you (and I) are wasting our time.
In a world of opinions it is unfortunate to know that one can share a deep affection with someone (for Everton) and yet be bombarded by the same person with such myopic malevolence and perpetual discontent & anger. I think it?s just plain sad that some people have great difficulty seeing the good in anything, always looking for bogey men and always wanting more.
The reality is that the chances of Everton being sold or invested in are so infinitesimal for the foreseeable future that we just have to crack on. Christ knows what the Phil Martins, Jay Harrises et al will make of things if we continue in the present vein. Any upside will of course have nothing whatsoever to do with the chairman, whilst all of the downside will be his personal responsibility.
The fact that such illogical rubbish still flows from the Kenwright haters says all there is to say. It?s their nonsense, leave them to it.
Stop being so bloody reasonable you bastard! :-) I fear you (and I) are wasting our time.
In a world of opinions it is unfortunate to know that one can share a deep affection with someone (for Everton) and yet be bombarded by the same person with such myopic malevolence and perpetual discontent & anger. I think it?s just plain sad that some people have great difficulty seeing the good in anything, always looking for bogey men and always wanting more.
The reality is that the chances of Everton being sold or invested in are so infinitesimal for the foreseeable future that we just have to crack on. Christ knows what the Phil Martins, Jay Harrises et al will make of things if we continue in the present vein. Any upside will of course have nothing whatsoever to do with the chairman, whilst all of the downside will be his personal responsibility.
The fact that such illogical rubbish still flows from the Kenwright haters says all there is to say. It?s their nonsense, leave them to it.
Phil
Your concerns are over. I understand that BK has found our much sought -after billionaire. Sir Allen Stanford is dropping the agreed purchase price off in a large perspex box by helicopter at the next home game. And more good news.... BK has agreed a deal with David Blaine who is going to sit in the box, unfed, for the rest of the season.
Your concerns are over. I understand that BK has found our much sought -after billionaire. Sir Allen Stanford is dropping the agreed purchase price off in a large perspex box by helicopter at the next home game. And more good news.... BK has agreed a deal with David Blaine who is going to sit in the box, unfed, for the rest of the season.
Neil,
I guess you overlook every shortcoming the man has and just deem him a "positive force at our club".
I never said BK was 100% incompetent. I distinctly remember saying apart from employing Moyes he has done very little... "Yes, BK employed DM. But that was 6-7 years ago" ? oh yes, I did say that!
I guess you overlook every shortcoming the man has and just deem him a "positive force at our club".
I never said BK was 100% incompetent. I distinctly remember saying apart from employing Moyes he has done very little... "Yes, BK employed DM. But that was 6-7 years ago" ? oh yes, I did say that!
My problem is not with that fact he borrowed money from friends but that EFC was ENTIRELY dependent on this. At least if he went to a bank or another outside investor (or someone who has a tiny bit of interest in Everton) and got cash. It would show
a) we have a business worth investing in.
b) he is capable of attracting outside investment into EFC.
Chrlish attitutde? Neil you are blinkered to say the see least. The phrase "looking 24/7" ring any bells? How do you explain somebody looking for investment "24/7" for 7 bloody years but still borrows money from his mates to keep us out of trouble until next years TV money arrives? Fellaini was purchased with the Sky TV money plus sales of AJ and McFadden. Again hardly brilliant economics.
I?ve never demonised BK ? as your reply suggests. I?ve simply argued that he has some major failings. Simply saying because Finch Farm was completed under his stewardship, OR because he didn't sack Moyes means he a positive force is ridiculous.
Again:
Rooney sale (for £20M)
"24/7"
"Watch this Space"
Wyness
Kirkby
Poor commercial stragey
Non existent marketing presence
"Wow"
No substantial outside investment during his 8 year reign....
I?m bored of arguing. This is my view Neil. I never said BK deserves absolutely no credit. Merely he doesn?t deserve much. He?s been a passenger at the club rather than a driving force behind it. If it weren't for Moyes unveiling gems every other year, we?d be in massive merde. And some how then the sun wouldn't shine quite so brightly from Sir Bill's a-hole.
Peter,
How witty, your retort really has put me in my place. I will now erect a Kenwright shrine in my bedroom.
Alan,
Exactly how is BK responsible for our good form? Does he choose or coach the players. Does he do the Teamtalks? Does he even drive the team bus?
[[...heads hits brick wall]]
How witty, your retort really has put me in my place. I will now erect a Kenwright shrine in my bedroom.
Alan,
Exactly how is BK responsible for our good form? Does he choose or coach the players. Does he do the Teamtalks? Does he even drive the team bus?
[[...heads hits brick wall]]
Peter Howard
I rest my case. No doubt you would have bitten Stamford’s hand off before this week, just to get rid of Bill Kenwright.
If the irony of this is lost on you then, as in all things, be careful what you wish for because it may just come true.
If you want your wishes realised, with billions, average left backs on £100k per week, 19 year olds asking for £65k per week after 10 appearances, grotesque bids for superstars, then there’s a club just down the East Lancs that’s perfect for you.
Enjoy the circus.
I rest my case. No doubt you would have bitten Stamford’s hand off before this week, just to get rid of Bill Kenwright.
If the irony of this is lost on you then, as in all things, be careful what you wish for because it may just come true.
If you want your wishes realised, with billions, average left backs on £100k per week, 19 year olds asking for £65k per week after 10 appearances, grotesque bids for superstars, then there’s a club just down the East Lancs that’s perfect for you.
Enjoy the circus.
Alan
...erm.... I think my irony was lost on you.
...erm.... I think my irony was lost on you.
Phil Martin
Where did I say anything, nevermind exactly, about Bill Kenwright being responsible for our good form?
Are you actually reading these posts or just making up your own arguments?
Also check out the meaning of the word "demonise".
Also to suggest that you have only pointed out that Kenwright makes some mistakes, but not on everything, is to re-write your own words. Everything, and for the avoidance of doubt that’s EVERYTHING, you say about Kenwright is critical. You hold him responsible for just about every problem, or what you think is a problem. And yet you give him no credit whatsoever for anything. Oh yes you said, with blinding perspicacity, that he recruited Moyes. That appears to be the basis on which you claim to be fair & objective.
Oh yes, I loved the but about Finch Farm "was completed under his stewardship" - your words. Clearly Finch Farm just happened without any input whatsoever from Kenwright. I mean, it’s a good thing, right? So someone else must have done it. Do you really believe in these fairy stories?
It’s boring, it’s illogical, it’s unrealistic, it’s churlish. And somehow I suspect it is never ending.
Shame we didn’t have TW under Johnson’s supreme stewardship. I for one would have paid to see the views of you & your Kenwright hating chums on that one.
Where did I say anything, nevermind exactly, about Bill Kenwright being responsible for our good form?
Are you actually reading these posts or just making up your own arguments?
Also check out the meaning of the word "demonise".
Also to suggest that you have only pointed out that Kenwright makes some mistakes, but not on everything, is to re-write your own words. Everything, and for the avoidance of doubt that’s EVERYTHING, you say about Kenwright is critical. You hold him responsible for just about every problem, or what you think is a problem. And yet you give him no credit whatsoever for anything. Oh yes you said, with blinding perspicacity, that he recruited Moyes. That appears to be the basis on which you claim to be fair & objective.
Oh yes, I loved the but about Finch Farm "was completed under his stewardship" - your words. Clearly Finch Farm just happened without any input whatsoever from Kenwright. I mean, it’s a good thing, right? So someone else must have done it. Do you really believe in these fairy stories?
It’s boring, it’s illogical, it’s unrealistic, it’s churlish. And somehow I suspect it is never ending.
Shame we didn’t have TW under Johnson’s supreme stewardship. I for one would have paid to see the views of you & your Kenwright hating chums on that one.
Phil, ever heard the phrase ?damning with faint praise?? You say you are not 100% against Kenwright, but then say that you can only find ONE thing to give him credit for ? hiring Moyes seven years ago! (Okay, you are not as extreme a Kenwright Hater as some, since you do not give the credit for that to Walter Smith.)
But it?s not much, is it Phil? Your view is that every other success at the club since then ? including retaining Moyes ? is of no credit to Kenwright whatsoever. I think that is just silly.
Your litany of the Kenwright ?sayings? is frankly pathetic. We all know he is a bit theatrical, but anyway what did you want him to publicly say on some of these? "Rooney is for sale at about £25M if someone puts in a good offer"? "We are not interested in investment"? "I?ve no hopes that we?ll get any new players in"?
Anyway, I should probably follow Alan?s advice and give up in the face of such entrenched hatred. As Alan suggests, how reasonable is it in the end to believe that everything bad that has happened at Everton over the last ten years is solely Kenwright?s fault, and everything good that has happened is solely to someone else?s credit? It isn?t. It?s silly.
But it?s not much, is it Phil? Your view is that every other success at the club since then ? including retaining Moyes ? is of no credit to Kenwright whatsoever. I think that is just silly.
Your litany of the Kenwright ?sayings? is frankly pathetic. We all know he is a bit theatrical, but anyway what did you want him to publicly say on some of these? "Rooney is for sale at about £25M if someone puts in a good offer"? "We are not interested in investment"? "I?ve no hopes that we?ll get any new players in"?
Anyway, I should probably follow Alan?s advice and give up in the face of such entrenched hatred. As Alan suggests, how reasonable is it in the end to believe that everything bad that has happened at Everton over the last ten years is solely Kenwright?s fault, and everything good that has happened is solely to someone else?s credit? It isn?t. It?s silly.
@ Alan Kirwin
I am not a hypocrite and, as such, would not advise you to do something I have not done myself. Your note initially referring to me at no point indicates it ceased to do so. Therefore, not one part of my retort is invalid or, in my view, unjustified. Re-read yet again anyone?
Also, how can you interpret a correction of inaccuracies as abivolence towards our chairman? Bizarre. For me to say I fully support him, in spite of occasional concerns and disagreeing with some standpoints and you to call that ambivolent is utterly desperate.
Furthremore, your basis for perceiving our disagreement on Bellefield is skewed. I do not contest that it was flawed as a business proposal or unreasonable as a plan. I simply stated (and reiterated) that it was foolhardy to rely on the support of a council the club were very publicly at odds with. May I suggest a mug of Horlicks and a long lie down for you. You seem very stressed.
Goodnight.
I am not a hypocrite and, as such, would not advise you to do something I have not done myself. Your note initially referring to me at no point indicates it ceased to do so. Therefore, not one part of my retort is invalid or, in my view, unjustified. Re-read yet again anyone?
Also, how can you interpret a correction of inaccuracies as abivolence towards our chairman? Bizarre. For me to say I fully support him, in spite of occasional concerns and disagreeing with some standpoints and you to call that ambivolent is utterly desperate.
Furthremore, your basis for perceiving our disagreement on Bellefield is skewed. I do not contest that it was flawed as a business proposal or unreasonable as a plan. I simply stated (and reiterated) that it was foolhardy to rely on the support of a council the club were very publicly at odds with. May I suggest a mug of Horlicks and a long lie down for you. You seem very stressed.
Goodnight.
Phil, You said: "Exactly how is BK responsible for our good form? Does he choose or coach the players. Does he do the Teamtalks? Does he even drive the team bus?
[[...heads hits brick wall]]"
I?m not sure if you realise but everyone in a club/organisation contributes. No, BK doesn?t do the teamtalk, but he got us the man that does. No, he doesn?t coach the players, but he got us the players that are coached. Our good form is done to having good players, a good manager, a stable club, etc. Who contributes towards that? Amongst many others - BK.
[[...heads hits brick wall]]"
I?m not sure if you realise but everyone in a club/organisation contributes. No, BK doesn?t do the teamtalk, but he got us the man that does. No, he doesn?t coach the players, but he got us the players that are coached. Our good form is done to having good players, a good manager, a stable club, etc. Who contributes towards that? Amongst many others - BK.
Even the guys or girls who sell the tickets (which help to pay players wages), the dietician, whoever, they all contribute. You know, if some cardiac surgeon did some great work on you, is it solely down to him? Or could the people who prepared theatre, the nurses, human resources who helped to hire the people, the people in admin, the commisioners of the acute trust and the PCT who gave the okay for funds, etc. - did they contribute to it all? Or are the NHS cardiology units ran smoothly just by so many cardiologists? Think about it lad.
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When we have an owner who truly has the club's best interests at heart and can capitalise on our fantastic tradition and support, then we may shake off the tag of being ?lucky? to have David Moyes.