I'm glad they have forgotten. It was embarrassing in the end. First, the kopite bastards stole our thunder yet again by getting back into the competition they should have for once been excluded from, albeit the bastards actually won it.

Then, when it comes our turn to shine, we stagger and stall at the qualification stage, dropping down on a highly dubious refereeing decision, only for us to totally blow it in Bucharest. That was us "breaking into the top 4"... you're havin' a laff aren't ya.

So much for the great European adventure ? it was at best cringeworthy and at worst a total embarrassment to be filed under the questionable label: "we weren't ready".

And if you admit that we are doubtful of overtaking Villa, then aren't you saying they're right? Rather than all this hot air, can't we just wait and see what the final table says?

Good post Terry. Don’t listen to what Michael says - he proper has a go sometimes, when it is totally unjustified.

We are close to breaking into the Sky 4 and look at our next 6 or so league games compared to Villas next 6 games - if we do as well as we are capable of in these games then its gonna be an interesting end to the season. We can definitely catch Villa. COYB

I?m with you Graham. If we win all 6 games then we will be up with Villa. YOUR DAD!

Terry, agree with Graham.
Good post and definetly don?t listen to MK he changes his tune to suit himself.
Early season people were asking to give Moyes and the team a chance and wait till the end of the season before making a judgement, he was vehemently opposed to this suggestion saying we should comment on the now.
Seems he?s changed his tune - yet again!

Nick, here?s the philosophy: (1) As far as judging Moyes on his performance in every game or at any stage of the season, based on how his teams have performed, we?re up for it. That is an ongoing process; it?s based on experiencing the event first, second or third hand.

(2) No amount of second-guessing and soothsaying about future outcomes matters one iota. It?s what the final table says that matters.

So, is it based on something that has already gone down, Or something that hasn?t happened yet? I think you are unwisely conflating the two.

Michael
How dull would this site be if we all just stopped talking and waited to see what actually happened!

To get back to the post : Villa -Schmilla. Tonight they struggled against ring-rusty Russians tonight. Overstretched and could crumble. Haven’t heard O’Neill’s comments yet - unlucky perhaps?

The media? Expect nothing from them and you won’t be disappointed. The top end opinion is swinging round to us, but the tits on page 3 brigade - which includes ITV & Sky - will serve up the same old garbage. And the pictures are actually better in The Guardian.

ps - Wagner Love & Moyes were mentioned together a few times in the commentary. Jo wasn’t - but he’s here for a while at least.

Michael, I agree with you that we should comment on what we see every week. I also agree that it is the final table that matters and that is my point. Some of the posts early doors were quite rightly critical of the manager, individuals and the team.

Some of the posts ? some of yours included ? were not constructively critical they were completely over the top. If you remember there was a lot of silly and extremely ill feeling posts among fellow supporters that were quite nasty.

Keith, it?s just about keeping it real, that?s all. There?s plenty on here that fits the bill, don?t you think?

Nick, you're getting way off topic but, for what it's worth, I think you are totally wrong. People voiced their opinions based on what they saw. It's only over the top if you don't agree, but I think everyone who was critical of Moyes and the players at the beginning of the season was bang on the nail. They had an atrocious start... or have you forgotten that already?

Now please, if you want to continue this, submit it as a new thread. But it had better be worth publishing!!!

I don't mind all the talking about Villa. Let's just get on with our own job of catching them and progressing in the cup and I truly believe that they will start to slip after a very poor performance against us and a lucky draw against CSKA.

I happen to think that Villa have a stronger squad than us. Only to be expected given relative spending over last two years.

Going off-topic and all Champ Manager for a bit, the perenially-linked Wagner Lurrrrve looked a proper player tonight. Absolutely worked his socks off as a lone striker but quality too.

Don’t you mean catching Arsenal?

Michael - this is real enough for me thank you.

I?ve wandered off into some terrible places lately, encountering things called Marcelaproust and worse, and when I get back home to TW I might still be a bit strident.

Villa? May have a stronger squad in numbers. When their ?world class? players can?t knock in a simple chance, and lay down and die when tackled, I?ll take Moyes?s boys any day.

Isn?t the irony of all this Jason fucking Cundy? How has that fat overrated nothing of a footballer managed to carve a career out spouting his moronic opinions about football? He made Ruddock look good in the Spurs team. The real disgrace here is sky charging us all money to sit and listen to crap from total nobodies like Jason Cundy.

Somebody has got to get a grip on this these morons they should be banned, ask yourself this has anyone ever listened to Townsend/Cundy/Gale/Shearer/Walsh or any other of these prats and thought, good point, intelligent insight, well researched??? Keane was spot on: turn your TV off, don?t buy crap papers, and talk to the bloke in the pub instead.

Quite simply... who cares. Unlike Villa... No expectations, no pressure.

Points are won on the pitch not in the media. So I?m happy supporting the invisible men.

Stuart, regarding the beginning of the season debacle, it seems as though because of were we are now all is forgotten / forgiven. I have been one of Moyes and the teams strongest supporters (as opposed to the way the club has been run, different issue) but even I was at a point of calling for Moyes head after some of the games and comments we had to endure in the first couple of months. The fact is at the time he showed little confidence in himself, the team or the club. That is when questions are asked about continued commitment to the cause.

He pulled his finger out and I am glad he did, I am glad he performed by getting the team to perform. But the fact is it shouldn’t have happened and if it had of continued then he would have fallen. He did nothing to engender his own credibility with the contract issue and we can only guess at some of the issues that got us were we were then. But I am glad he sorted it otherwise he HAD to go...

Life is about performance and timing.. where have I heard that before.. I guess the longer the issue continued the less likely you are to turn it around.. it must have been a close run thing..

What a load of tosh this article is!

I don’t want the Blues to be the flavour of the month, not only does it pile extra pressure on the team but it gives them extra reason to poo poo us when the wheels fall of the wagon. It happened with Hull earlier this season and it may well happen with Villa.

Moyes and the boys have made a good attempt to rectify a faltering start to the season...don’t get carried away, there’s very little chance we will win 6 in a row (believe me, I’d be over the moon if that were to happen), so yes...Villa are best placed to break the 4 up. If you think otherwise you need to take your blue-tinted specs off.

The important thing is is that the team, despite its depleted state, looks stronger than when we last usurped the Reds and appears to have a better playing style. It’s essential that if we do make it to the top 4 places that we don’t blow it like last time...I’m sure we’d maker a slightly better fist of it this time but I’d rather we see how Feb/March pans out before demanding that the media jump on our bandwagon.

’dubious refereeing decision’ Michael? The guy was bought, was a disgrace throughout both legs and retired straight after... hmmmm go figure.

Christine,

Every team has a bad spell at some point in the season. It doesn?t mean you should be calling for the manager's head. Early in the season when we strung together a few poor results I had every confidence in Moyes to turn it it round. And up to now he has done exactly that.

Fickle?

Everton have just got to concentrate on their own game. We have an easier run in on paper as Villa have yet to play all of the big teams, and like I have said on a previous post, Villa are looking like they are beginning to believe the media’s hype. O’Niell after every game saying how brilliant they were, despite the result, moaning about decisions that went against them, but not for them (e.g Petrov against us). He even had the nerve to comment on the players VILLA had missing against us!!! We are by no means out of it, we just have to keep on going like we have been the last few weeks! COYB!!

Since DM arrived at Goodison how many times have Villa been ahead of Everton in the final league table?

Well if Jason Cunty says it, it must be true because he won everything as a player, played for England 396 times and has been a top four manager for the last 10 seasons.

Twat

Media exposure is important (even if a double-edged sword). If Everton were as highlighted in the media here (in South Africa) as the red teams and Chelsea, I might be able to buy some replica kit (whether official and horrendously overpriced or fallen off a truck) for my kids. As it is, I’m facing an uphill battle strying to stop my eldest from going over to the dark side!

On another note, I am dubious about whether Villa have a better squad than us. Other then Laursen, their defence is crap. As far as I’m concerned, the two form teams in the Premiership at the moment are Man U and us. No question. And I’d rather have a stuttering start and good finish (we’ll wait and see) than a good start only for the wheels to come off around about this time of year, as we’ve seen in the past.

Couldn?t give a flying fig about what the media say about us. What do they now, they are uaually failures at anything to do with sport or were that good at it they think their views should be listened to even if they are daft/boring/nonsense.

I would disagree about the Champions League games being an embarrassment, we were beaten by the semi finalists and a corrupt ref.

The aftershock of that was an embarassing defeat to Bucharest followed by.... everyone seems to forget, us beating them at home, OK the tie was effectively over but we still went out with a win.

Anyway old news and back to the point, let all the nobodies say what they want, it is the table at the end of the season what counts not the thought of the budding Nostradamuses.

Christine,

It wasn?t exactly a shock that we started badly. We had loads of injuries (Moyes?s fault???), etc. Defenders playing in midfield, 16-year-olds up front, new players taking a while to settle in, etc. The side was completely disjointed.

I remember at the time my Sister and Dad banging about how poor we were and how worried they were. Admittedly, we were poor, but because of the reasons already mentioned. I said to them that we were disjointed because of said reasons and that once players were back from injury and new players settled, we?d be fine, which is what happened.

I know, we have injuries now and are still doing okay. But we?ve kept our key players fit (Cahill and Arteta), players who weren?t playing well sorted themselves out (with the help of Moyes et al) e.g. Lescott and because we started to win a few, confidence shot up, a massive factor.

So, next time we have a bad spell (for whatever reason), don?t suddenly think ?let?s get rid of Moyes? as he?s proved that he?s done/doing a good job.

As for Villa, I think 11 points may be too much to catch, but you never know. I think we are a better side than them though. Don?t get be wrong, they are decent, but various factors has seen them pull away. We?re now showing we are a better side (outplayed them with half a side and completely outplayed them in the league game, unlucky there) but it may be too late. We?ll see. It?ll be fun finding out, looking forward to going to Villa!

Also it is nice to see Villa doing well. Like us a good traditional outfit, not like some of the gobshites above. COYB.

Interesting that everybody seems to be obsessed with catching Villa, what about Arsenal, Chelsea and dare I say the red shit across the road? I think it would be great for English football if either us or Villa make it, absolutely fantastic if we both do it.

The Sky 4 are absolutely dependant on Champions League football ? nothing short of that is viewed as a disaster, what we need in this league is for those 4 positions to be broken year on year so that the money is spread around therefore making the Premier League more competitive.

Both Villa and us are now close enough to make them uncomfortable, I for one hope that Villa go and win on Sunday, if we beat the barcodes then we will only be 6 points behind Chelsea!

I am one of the first few here couple of weeks back to suggest we can overtake Villians. I got shot down. But my confidence is still strong. Villian has a much more difficult run-in. All it takes a couple of losses and they will be shaken. We have a good geninue run. Each match we’re getting stronger. The defence is getting tighter, the attack getting sharper, and in between the midfield getting quicker and cannier. Whoa I am getting high and need another fix. Thrash Newcastle.

I completely agree with Michael ? this is all pie in the sky; catching Villa?? They?re 11 points ahead of us!!

We should be concentrating on catching Arsenal before we worry about Villa......oh and the small matter of Chelsea!

Another thing ? good luck to Villa, they deserve their plaudits the same way we did when we were up there ? don?t begrudge them the praise; we all want the top 4 monopoly broken so you should be backing them not whinging about us not getting any coverage ? we?re 6th so it has bugger all to do with us.

PS I do of course hope Villa fail if it means us getting up there.

Fuck ?em, let everyone keep banging on about Villa and keep putting pressure on them to break in the top four, that just leaves us to go get on with our buisness un noticed. Deep down it probably drives our squad on the fact that no-one is talking about us and only Villa when it comes to qualifying for the Champions League. No-one expects us to compete for a place in the Champions League so there?s no pressure on us to achieve it so if we carry going about are business the way we are at the moment... then who knows?!!

We need to distinguish the difference between finsihing 4th in one season and ?breaking the big 4?. While it is possible (as we proved a few years back) to finish 4th. It isn't possible to ?break? the top 4 without cash. I don't mean lots of cash, but enough to go out and buy better players year after year ? WITHOUT selling good players first.

Sure, Villa and EFC have a chance of 4th this year, but given Villa have Lerner and therefore a much larger transfer and wage budget. They are (unfortunately) more likely to challenge the current sky 4 regularly in the future. Even if we got 4th and Villa finished 6th, they would still have more funds to spend. That is the difference! To break the ?top 4? IMHO you need to be regularly competing for top 4 places and challenging for every major trophy every year ? as they currently do. Just by finishing 4th once in a while does not mean you have broken up the top 4.

Thank you Jason Broome - who cares?
Everton’s success is for the enjoyment of Evertonians only. The more we are ignored by the media, the less I care what they say.

Who is Jason Cundy? Better still, don’t listen to TalkSport.

Villa?
We?ll reel them in...

I used to care about our media profile but no more. The Goodison PR machine is puerile and long may that last. Do we really want talk in the press about how great a manager Moyes is or how great our players are? Look how we?ve re-acted over Rodwell?s contract for fear of him being poached after his profile was raised in the press.

I agree with Matt Dee and Harvey Smith keep our success to ourselves. In fact if you even spot a journalist within a 100 yards of Goodison steer him towards the RS!

Some one here thinks that in the long run, we need cash for larger and wage budget to break in to the top 4. Tell that to the rich clubs languishing in the bottom. We need cash to run the club better, to improve the academy, to attract new young players. And you don?t need loads of cash to do these.

Whenever something good happens at Everton it's always the manager or players who receives credit. If we win the cup this year (I hope), I guarentee you they will only say well done Moyes and not Everton.

People must remember that it was EVERTON FC who hired David Moyes when nobody knew who he was.

Mark Stone........

This fickle arguement really pisses me off. All members of the IMWT brigade are feeling pretty fuckin pleased with themselves at the moment & rightly so. Personally I?m not that patient, under Moyes I?ve repeatedley seen great performances followed by desperate ones, total football followed by anti-football, hope followed by despair. Like many others I thought he could take us no further. Now we?re having another upturn, which I would normally expect to be followed by a slump.

But dare I say it I?m now also feeling optimistic because the injuries & suspensions that normally cause us to revert to type have not affected us at all. Instead of crumbling we seem to be getting stronger. Suddenly we have options, suddenly we have a squad, suddenly we have a manager who?s no longer afraid of his own shadow. I?m not fickle I just refuse to tolerate shite & I will also give credit where it?s due.

MK is right in real terms we just weren?t ready in ?05 coupled with then top 4 were at the time rock solid.

The whole top4 thing has move on, only United have the credentials now and how will they do when SAF goes.

The RS, well the name says it all AND debt real debt not our pittance. CFC, the world has turned since the special one came on the scene, all is not happy in W London. The Arse. I don?t care what anybody say funding the Emirates and their fall from perfection ARE RELATED, with a little help from Henry and Viera going over the hill and out of the club.

All that has happened is that the journo?s know a bandwagon when they see one and this will run and run.

There is, as the say ROOM AT THE TOP.

Damian / Mark I don?t believe for one second that we just a bad spell at the start of the season and that the injuries et al where the cause. I don't believe you should chuck a manager when they are having a bad spell as they all do, the PL is particularly bad for this. But the start of the season was a a complete and utter balls up as a club!

The ball was dropped in quick succession by BK, watch this space, by DM announcing we weren?t ready to play PL games (astounding!), by the TEAM looking so pissed off with the manager, the club's financial commitment, lack of transfers and the eye off the ball by DM mainly because of his contract, the uncertainty and the appalling lack of communication...

Need I go on? That wasn?t a bad spell... that was bad management by the club and by the manager. He got his act together thank goodness but everyone of us knows that if he hadn?t then he would have been gone.

We are sixth and I am pleased about that, but I also recognise that we could have been 4th if it wasn?t for dropping the bundle for at least a month.

David Moyes is admired because he gets the best out of any team he picks, usually that is. That's his trademark. But for whatever the reason that didn?t happen and I suspect Moyes was on the verge of going before the season started and that's why we weren?t prepared. End of story.

Christine, you said, "everyone of us knows that if he hadn?t then he would have been gone." We finished 4th bottom and he didn?t go then, so I don?t think he would have gone, even if it didn?t improve. I think (as he was after the bad start) he would have been given a further chance as I?ve said, evidence suggests that even with a bad spell, he?ll pull through and do a good job.

Behind the scenes? As always, we don?t know, we can only guess. I think it?s safe to say though (as you said) that it was bad management, coupled with some bad luck. But, now we see good management and that?s why some of us weren?t worried and why Moyes is given chances. End of story.

As for maybe being 4th if we?d not had the bad start. Maybe. But who knows? So many ifs and buts in football. As in any job, unexpected challenges creep up when everything is going smoothly, you then have to have the ability to sort it (whoever?s fault it was) ? and Moyes, the players and the club as a whole has done that. Good luck to them. COYB.