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Neville without Arteta?
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In the past there was a "strong consensus" (diplomatic wording), with which I agreed, that our captain was a capable RB but should NEVER wear a blue shirt in midfield again.
However, a major, if not the major, turning point this season was Arteta being moved to centre-mid with PN alongside. The view is that this works as PN has no pressure to be creative and can concentrate on organisational/motivational skills (in which he is excellent) and he can just play it simple.
Now that Mikel is injured, what are people's thoughts on whether PN can be effective in midfield now that that we don't have a creative force alongside him?
Damian Kelly, Posted 03/03/2009 at 10:04:29
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Whilst not putting him in quite the same bracket as Arteta, Osman is quite capable of doing a job there ? in fact he?s better in the centre than out wide.
Neville is good organiser and defends well but cannot cross a ball or pass a ball with any accuracy. With Rodwell playing the holding roll and passing with ease it is hard to find a role for PN even with Arteta out. With so many injuries though, it's all hands to the pumps and we don't have the luxury of being picky, do we?
That’s our next manager you are talking about, I’ll have you know!
I think we need Osman in the middle too to add some creativity in that area of the pitch to help overcome the massive injury blow to Arteta. However, the problem of doing this is who are we going to play right mid instead of Osman for the rest of the season??!!
Dan Gosling seems to be the only real alternative and does Moyes really want to play Gosling regularly in every match for the rest of the season? Alternatively Anichebe could be given a chance there when he comes back from injury, but the likelihood is Osman may stay there to accomodate playing both Fellaini or Rodwell in the team whilst Neville may return to right back while Hibbert is injured.
Dan Gosling seems to be the only real alternative and does Moyes really want to play Gosling regularly in every match for the rest of the season? Alternatively Anichebe could be given a chance there when he comes back from injury, but the likelihood is Osman may stay there to accomodate playing both Fellaini or Rodwell in the team whilst Neville may return to right back while Hibbert is injured.
I’m still not convinced.
Neville hasn’t done much wrong in terms of his midfield stint....covering the wingers when they go foward and passing the ball sideways...like Neil Lennon...
However, I think Rodwell brings so much more to this position..he has a bit of guile and can do the simple things well.
Just because Neville hasn’t done much wrong doesn’t mean he has been outstanding in that position. He simply hasn’t been. People are confusing his influence as a captain with his influence as a player...But the problem is with Hibbert paying so well, then we might need to keep him in midfield to keep out captain on the pitch...and in my opinion, thats to our footballing detriment...but then again..so is leaving him out...
It’s a problem.
Neville hasn’t done much wrong in terms of his midfield stint....covering the wingers when they go foward and passing the ball sideways...like Neil Lennon...
However, I think Rodwell brings so much more to this position..he has a bit of guile and can do the simple things well.
Just because Neville hasn’t done much wrong doesn’t mean he has been outstanding in that position. He simply hasn’t been. People are confusing his influence as a captain with his influence as a player...But the problem is with Hibbert paying so well, then we might need to keep him in midfield to keep out captain on the pitch...and in my opinion, thats to our footballing detriment...but then again..so is leaving him out...
It’s a problem.
Tony Marsh, just wandering off the thread a bit, apart from Everton my other fave subject is music. I have noticed on a lot of music sites I have visited lately there are a lot of posts by a guy called Tony Marsh: very, very acidic and entertaining ? I just wondered, is it you?
Neville can't play in midfield without Arteta, simple as that in my opinion. Arteta is a world class centre-mid, which allowed Neville to mop up and do nothing else. Although I?d rather bring him on slowly, we really need Rodwell to regain fitness.
Also, though we weren't particulary good on Saturday, we looked a lot better when Osman came on and Neville moved to defence (even though he wasted a lot of crossing opportunities). Also, despite the constant criticisms of him, we lost our shape as soon as Fellaini was taken off and may well have only saved the 3 ponts thanks to a superb piece of skill from Saha.
Also, though we weren't particulary good on Saturday, we looked a lot better when Osman came on and Neville moved to defence (even though he wasted a lot of crossing opportunities). Also, despite the constant criticisms of him, we lost our shape as soon as Fellaini was taken off and may well have only saved the 3 ponts thanks to a superb piece of skill from Saha.
I think Neville is more effective on the right linking up with Tony Hibbert when he’s fit.
I think Ossie is only effective in the middle with a 5 man MF as he does get knocked off the ball too often.
For Blackburn I would play Gosling at RB,Neville Ossie Rodwell(if fit) Fellaini Pienaar as MF and Tiny up front.
Or give Gosling A rest and Give Jacobsen a run out.
I think Ossie is only effective in the middle with a 5 man MF as he does get knocked off the ball too often.
For Blackburn I would play Gosling at RB,Neville Ossie Rodwell(if fit) Fellaini Pienaar as MF and Tiny up front.
Or give Gosling A rest and Give Jacobsen a run out.
Funny no-one mentions any more how much we miss Lee Carsley? He was the reason Neville looked poor in midfield.
In my opinion Neville is a better centre midfielder than Rodwell and a better right back than Hibbert.
Personally I?d play him centre-mid with Osman and leave Hibbert at right back.
Personally I?d play him centre-mid with Osman and leave Hibbert at right back.
Strange how Fellaini is now missing from debates about midfield formations. When he was booked in the Hull game we were doomed!! Bearing in mind injuries and form etc I?d play Neville & Osman in the middle on Wednesday with Fellaini on the bench. Jacobsen/Yobo/Jags are not first or even 2nd choices at right back but should be up to doing a job at Ewood.
I concur with Jay Harris, I think we should play Cahill upfront with Fellaini just behind, this is where Fellaini was at his most effective and had his best spell of form (before the shite games).
Apparently Fellaini has been playing with a hairline fracture in his vertebrae or rib. I think it must have affected his performances. And also, people seem to forget that he is only 21.
This for me is a no brainer.
Everton are a much more solid unit with a defined defensive midfielder in the team.
Since Neville moved into that role we have hardly lost a game.
Neville-Casley was far too limited, but Neville-Anyone works fine, particularly with Cahill as thew auxillary forward off the back of Jo.
For me, Neville in midfield makes a huge difference... look at all the chances west brom created when he moved to RB.
I think Neville is better a RB but the needs of the team come first and the team is better if he plays in the holding role - tomorrow and always until we buy another defensive midfielder.
Everton are a much more solid unit with a defined defensive midfielder in the team.
Since Neville moved into that role we have hardly lost a game.
Neville-Casley was far too limited, but Neville-Anyone works fine, particularly with Cahill as thew auxillary forward off the back of Jo.
For me, Neville in midfield makes a huge difference... look at all the chances west brom created when he moved to RB.
I think Neville is better a RB but the needs of the team come first and the team is better if he plays in the holding role - tomorrow and always until we buy another defensive midfielder.
When PN was playing ?badly? in midfield, the whole team were playing pretty poor, so I don?t think all the blame should be put to him. He is a better player with Arteta though, who wouldn?t be?
I would like to see DM rest both Rodwell and Fellaini in the hope they will be 100% for the weekend. Neville and Osman can do a job for us against Blackburn.
I would like to see DM rest both Rodwell and Fellaini in the hope they will be 100% for the weekend. Neville and Osman can do a job for us against Blackburn.
Gosling's "actual" position is not right-back, although he played there a few times for Plymouth. He is an attacking midfielder and I see him as a right winger as he is fast. The only way he beats his man is knocking it forward and beating the defenders for pace, which he is very good at. Definitely an attacking player. So rule him out as a right-back on Wednesday.
I get a little nostalgic when watching that guy, Fellaini. He reminds me of Claus Thomsen. I know, that can be a little harsh on the great Dane, but in his defence he is both a little bit faster and also a lot better tackler than Screetch.
However, it would be wrong to say that Fellaini is the slowest person associated with the club. I presume that the kit manager Jim Martin is the slowest one, then comes Fellaini and then Bill Kenwright. I actually think that former physio Les Helm has had faster runs on the pitch than the Belgian international.
Perhaps Mr Helm is not that good in the air, as Fellaini, but he compensates that with much more experience. And nobody can make excuses that Les Helm is still 21. We can only hope Fellaini turns out to be that player Moyes thought he could be. But until then, we can try playing Andy Holden instead.
The dirty work in midfield still needs to be done and there is no player in the squad better able to do this than Pip. Rodwell may eventually be employed regularly in the defensive midfield role but he lacks the necessary experience at the moment.
Really can?t believe the negativity about Neville on this thread. He has been almost player of the season for us. It?s not his fault our main creative force is injured and it wasn?t his fault that the whole team, particularly defence, was misfiring early season.
He has been excellent at RB and extremely good (contrary to popular myth) in midfield. His influence as captain, which IMHO is excellent and vital to the team, simply underlines his importance to us.
Or perhaps I?m one of those people who simply confuse his influence as captain with his influence as a player. Perhaps we should make a case to the FA for having a captain on the bench. Perhaps we should make Rodwell captain. Then again...
He has been excellent at RB and extremely good (contrary to popular myth) in midfield. His influence as captain, which IMHO is excellent and vital to the team, simply underlines his importance to us.
Or perhaps I?m one of those people who simply confuse his influence as captain with his influence as a player. Perhaps we should make a case to the FA for having a captain on the bench. Perhaps we should make Rodwell captain. Then again...
All the musings may be irrelevant now as Hibbo is out for 4 weeks. Jags didn't cover himself in glory at RB and is MUCH better in the middle (of defence) and similarly Yobo looked way out of position when he played there. Not sure how good this Jacobsen is and not convinced Moyes trusts him. It's either Neville or Jacobsen at RB and, after an early season stutter, I would say at the moment we need Neville in midfield so the RB slot goes to Jacobsen for Wednesday and we?ll see how he goes for the weekend.
Alan
I must be reading a different thread to you as I read a lot of positivity about Neville on this thread.
I feel he has suffered criticism in the past but on the whole I think most supporters feel he?s done a decent job this year, surprisingly mostly in MF, and I think most posters on this thread reflect that.
I think the unfortunate is poor Fellaini who, even though playing with an extremely painful back, seems to be the scapegoat this week.
I must be reading a different thread to you as I read a lot of positivity about Neville on this thread.
I feel he has suffered criticism in the past but on the whole I think most supporters feel he?s done a decent job this year, surprisingly mostly in MF, and I think most posters on this thread reflect that.
I think the unfortunate is poor Fellaini who, even though playing with an extremely painful back, seems to be the scapegoat this week.
Yes he is... But on a positive note. If he learns how to run, shoot, jump, tackle and dribble, he could be a good player... I mean, he is ooooonly 21. And as some people use to mention the fact that he doesn?t speak English as an excuse for his shortcomings, I am sure that once he has learned the language, he will automaticly transform into a fast version of Carsley with the same technique as Arteta. He will also have the same jumping ability as Cahill and with a stronger force than Ferguson on top of a canonball hard shot as Barry Horne. I know this because I have read articles on this forum.
I also know that the reason that AVDM never plays, is because he has a large arse... not that I can confirm that, but so they say anyway. But if we should get rid of every player that comes with a big rear end, I suppose Yakubu would be the first to leave.
Sorry but I have to defend Yak’s rather large behind. Being a center forward, the backside works wonders in sheilding the ball and I can’t only blame the constant squatting, bumping centerbacks, and rotating in circles protecting the ball that eventually results in large arses. And you wondered why AJ was forced down the wings eh? The greatest arse of them all? Alan Shearer.
Can?t agree with Jay Harris on the team for tonight. Would defo play Jo against Blackburn as he is ineligible for Sunday, maybe even rest Cahill cos given our luck he?ll get injured tonight. Bring him on if need be late on, same with Saha.
Gosling isn?t a RB so I wouldn?t put him there either but agree on giving Jacobsen a run out plus an extended appearance for VDM might be an idea.
Gosling isn?t a RB so I wouldn?t put him there either but agree on giving Jacobsen a run out plus an extended appearance for VDM might be an idea.
I love reading Kevin Spencer’s views, it makes me thankful for my education.
This is a pretty interesting post, with a wide variety views. Personally, I believe:
- From what I have seen this season, Neville can’t play CM in a 4-4-2 unless Arteta is playing. Neville is best employed as a defensive shield breaking up the opposition’s play. In a 4-4-2, this needs Neville’s CM partner to have an all rounded game, combining creativity, passing, positional sense and the odd goal. I do not believe we another midfielder in our squad who has the same rounded game as Arteta.
- 4-4-2 without Arteta and with Neville as CM and Jo as CF is abit problematic. From what I have seen, Jo’s game is not to stretch defences - he tends to come short more often and try and link up play from there. This worked a treat with Arteta. However, the game against West Brom for example got pretty compressed when he did this, and given that Neville wasn’t in the side to thread passes, it meant there was enormous pressure on the other three midfielders to find a pass. Gosling to me, for the first time, looked under real pressure and it was not until Ossie came on that we managed to produce link up play. I also noticed that Saha’s arrival stretched the game alot more as his game is much more direct than Jo’s. Baines seemed to have much more space and joy when Saha came on.
Hopefully, Jo will show alot more confidence and try and turn defenders and stretch the game. If he does that, it puts less pressure on our midfield and means that Neville can concentrate on what he is very good at - breaking up play.
- From what I have seen this season, Neville can’t play CM in a 4-4-2 unless Arteta is playing. Neville is best employed as a defensive shield breaking up the opposition’s play. In a 4-4-2, this needs Neville’s CM partner to have an all rounded game, combining creativity, passing, positional sense and the odd goal. I do not believe we another midfielder in our squad who has the same rounded game as Arteta.
- 4-4-2 without Arteta and with Neville as CM and Jo as CF is abit problematic. From what I have seen, Jo’s game is not to stretch defences - he tends to come short more often and try and link up play from there. This worked a treat with Arteta. However, the game against West Brom for example got pretty compressed when he did this, and given that Neville wasn’t in the side to thread passes, it meant there was enormous pressure on the other three midfielders to find a pass. Gosling to me, for the first time, looked under real pressure and it was not until Ossie came on that we managed to produce link up play. I also noticed that Saha’s arrival stretched the game alot more as his game is much more direct than Jo’s. Baines seemed to have much more space and joy when Saha came on.
Hopefully, Jo will show alot more confidence and try and turn defenders and stretch the game. If he does that, it puts less pressure on our midfield and means that Neville can concentrate on what he is very good at - breaking up play.
The evidence is building for Amit’s opinion that Neville is useless in centre midfield without a high quality creative player beside him.
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1 Posted 03/03/2009 at 14:44:47
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