We have to make it at least something to do with Everton... but unfortunately we cannot boast anyone quite like Cloughy in our history.

Catterick was stern but much more refined ? almost middle class... Kendall was perhaps in a similar mould to Catterick in some ways but never came over that strong, did he? Joe Royle was perhaps too soft for his own good, despite unleashing the Dogs of War on to an unsuspecting Premier League...

I guess I'm not convinced that management has changed so much... but our managers obviously have.

I read ’Psycho’, the Stuart Pearce autobiography recently and he mentioned that although he didn’t particularly like Cloughie, every player (to a man) was shit scared of him. Some of his (Clough’s) antics were out of the very top drawer but the game has changed so much that someone like him would not survive today - not a slight on the great man, just a sad indictment of the way the game has gone.

Sean, The same can be said of Bill Shankley, rumours had it at the time, that he wanted more control at his club. But failed, and the rest is history. Unlike today, a certain manager at the same club, has gained full control of all signings and got rid of the man who was in his way.

I could not care less whether it works or not, but there has been change.

I just wonder what "Old Big Head" would have made of it.

The definition of Legend is:

?1. An unverified story handed down from earlier times, especially one popularly believed to be historical.
b. A body or collection of such stories.
c. A romanticized or popularized myth of modern times.
2. One that inspires legends or achieves legendary fame.?

So, I?ll accept Clough qualifies as he is very much a romanticized figure of mythical proportions far exceeding the truth.

I remember having a ferocious argument one time at university in Clough?s heartland of the east midland?s over the fact that I would not name him in my five greatest managers in the British game of all time. I qualify this by accepting that he is a good manager who achieved some remarkable feats. But when starts to consider putting him ahead of Shankly, Paisley, Ferguson, even our Howard Kendall hold your horses a second. Anyway that?s another point.

I would also like to invite some older Evertonians to share their views as to why this man was so hated on Merseyside. The guy hated scousers with a passion, and we returned the favour. This was not just down to his despicable comments about US (they were not limited to Liverpool fans but the city as a whole) and his subsequent refusal to take the comments back until he was on his last legs.

As for people not being like him. Joe Mourinho anyone? He is easily as quotable and furthermore has achieved remarkable success at Porto akin to that of Forest. Also lets not forget Peter Taylor (not the former England U21 manager). Clough won 1 FA Cup without Taylor at his side. He floundered at Leeds (watch the film) and was arguably tactically inept which is why Forest floundered so baldy as the game became faster and more technical. Clough was more motivational than tactical.

Also, Ronaldo, Rooney and the rest would not have put up with Clough these days. They would simply leave and go to another club and achieve success there. Clough was not great at dealing with players with egos almost as big as his. His record at Leeds highlights this. Particularly, his constant comparsions of his players to himself and the fact they were not quite as good as him. Ask our very own Duncan McKenzie.

Finally, I do accept that most of what he says was firmly tongue in cheek. He made his comments to boost his profile and to keep himself in the press. He was a flawed genius. He was no Mother Theresa. And probably drank away the best of his talent leading to almost 20 years of floundering without a trophy (save for the FA Cup in the Gazza final).

Cloughie, one of the game?s great characters. But not liked in these parts and his comments are not so easily forgotten.

Sean - I think the game has changed so much in the last thirty years that it is difficult to imagine how Cloughie would cope these days.

There is little doubt that that his style centred around controlling his players and injecting a great deal of discipline. That said, akin to most geniuses, Cloughie was prone to a contradictory nature and it was interesting to hear Martin O?Neill and John Robertson admitting that they craved Clough?s approval, almost as though he was their Father.

Ironically his own son Nigel revealed that his Father never congratulated him on reaching a cup final or achieving his first England cap. Fascinating stuff but whether the great man, as you put it, would have had the patience to manage the mega stars of today is questionable. But that said, perhaps he would have found a different way of going about it.

On another point: Michael, in relating management styles to EFC you say that JR was "too soft for his own good". I think we would all agree that Royle?s record as a manager stands up (4th in TW rankings) but I never perceived him as being "soft" in any of the roles he had in management. I?m interested in your opinion and what you base it on?

Stephen, Clough never won the FA Cup, but taking Derby and Forest to league titles, two European Cups with Forest back to back, I think a European semi-final with Derby and great football by getting the best out of a lesser budget, plus his own self, yup, legend of the game.
Didn’t see the programme, but will watch it on tinternet later.

While we’re on managers, who on earth put together ToffeeWeb’s section on David Moyes? It’s verging on disgraceful!

http://www.toffeeweb.com/club/managers/moyes.asp

"Moyes does not possess the mindset to win games; he possesses the defensive don?t get beat approach - and that will never challenge the better teams. We might stifle them and draw a few games and even win the odd one, when they are less than focussed, but would they fear us in terms of losing to us? I think not."

And what’s all this about Moyes needing to win a cup every year to prove he can compete at this level? If he won a cup every year there would be an invetigation into match fixing. After all, how often does a club that is the 12th biggest spender in the league win consecutive cups?!

Maybe it’s just me, but I think we need a fair reappraisal of the man who, as Toffeeweb concedes, has transformed Everton from perennial relegation candidates into a top 6 club.

Stephen, Just for the record, our best ever manager, Mr Kendall, has a record that pales into insignificance against Brian Clough?s.

He won back-to-back European Cups for god sake.

Clough is a legend yes, but a flawed manager shown out by his barren years at Forest, eventually taking them down.

Winning back to back European Cups is an amazing achievement, but it was also done at a time when English clubs were falling over silver european pots, even the likes of Ipswich and Villa were winning their first and only european silverware. And its not like he wasnt splashing the cash - Francis the first £1m signing (what landmark equilivant would that be in today’s game? The first £100m player?)

I couldnt see the likes of messers Ferguson or Wenger taking their respective clubs down. Yes the game has changed since Clough’s day, the game was changing during his tenure at Forest and he failed to adapt with it. The game has massively changed since Ferguson took the helm at Man Ure, but he has changed and adapted to it.

Clough a legend yes, but his managerial record is tarnished in ways other managers are not. If only Kendall didnt have stints 2 and 3 I might be able to tie this back to Everton! And on that note, I have no idea why we are biggin up Clough on TW! IMO.

What hit me about football up to and including the Clough era was how the league was much more open. Several clubs were in with a shout of winning something - even the likes of Derby and Forest. I think Sky / commercialism (though sadly inevitable) is ruining the game as, since advent of Premier League, the prevailing trend has been for the moneyed clubs to dominate. Everton are the nearest club to challenge that model. Let’s hope we achieve that soon.

Clough is probably the greatest manager of all time considering what he won and what resources he had with the teams he controlled.

We constantly hear how great Moyes has done with his resources but Cloughie had far less and achived so much more.

I will always love Cloughie though simply for punching Roy Keane in the face.

Clough the manager, what about Clough the PLAYER! I saw him many times, an old fashioned center forward, no one was ever going to break Dixies 60 goals record, but only for injury Cloughie was on the road to a very high haul at some stage in his career, great header of the ball, both feet as good as one another, good control, and more skill than given credit for! He used to make me smile at some of his antics and comments both as a player and manager. This is how i remember him. The only other footballers i remember better than him are Dave Hickson and of course Bally, but thats because i am a Blue. Ahhh! Memories

Joeynkoo - i only posted the topic because i was so impressed with the documentary and thought it might be a nice change to talk about something different for once.

Obviously, we have had great managers over the years, but after watching the programme last nite, it just opitomised how much the respect in the game has wandered over the years......

for example.....Tom Huddlestone coming out in the paper yesterday and saying he will need to move from spurs for ’regular team football’. I mean, who the hell does he think he is?

If he had of done that during Clough’s day, he would have been out (and rightly so).

Tommy Coleman, Clough?s achievements are there for all to see, whereas Moyes is still in the game so to speak. Make the comparisons when Moyes has done, not before.

Also, with regard to your comment about the ?lack of funds? achievement, the game back then was not as ?money-driven? as it now is, and therefore it was easier to achieve what Clough did on a shoestring (not easy, easier than doing the same thing today). Also, the game is constantly changing and new variables added to the mix constantly... which makes most ?comparisons across the spectrum of time? is speculation at best...

The skills that Clough had (mainly motivational) were suited to his time, and whilst it still has a major place in today's game, there are too many other factors involved which ?The Great Man? didn?t have to contend with. But then, maybe he would have tailored his approach if he managed today... see, speculation at best.

I don’t read ’Football books’ so I never really got a complete grip on what happened at Leeds but at the time it did not surprise me that Cloughie did not last long there.

Leeds were the ugliest bunch of brutes ever to disgrace a football pitch (despite having a few great players) So much so that they reminded me of a travelling gang of pugilists, led by their gangleader, Don Revie. Older Blues (like me!) may recall the game at Goodison (was it in 64?) when Leed’s sole tactic was to kick us off the pitch. Unfortunately, we had a few lads in those days who could dish it out too which they did and both teams ended up getting dragged off the pitch by the referee for a cooling off period.

This was how Leeds played. Whatever we think of Cloughie’s personality his teams, Derby and Forest, played sweet football. I don’t think he would have continued to promote Leed’s belligerent style and this is why they (the players) who had grown so used to their ’system’ could not accept Cloughie’s more cultured approach, nor his attempts to ’discipline’ the club out of their thugishness.

In my opinion, Brian Clough was the best English manager of all time. What he did with two provincial clubs was phenomenal and the fact that he ’took them down’ (as somebody mentioned above) had less to do with him than the changing nature of the game.

He spoke plain English too; and told it how it was and therefore he was never popular with the FA and that is why a thug like Revie got the chance to manage England (and didn’t the shithouse let his country down!!) before he (Cloughie) did and is why he was never recommended for the Knighthood his achievements deserved (considering Fergie got one for achieving less at the time he got it!)

He never forgot his roots either ( a bit like Ferguson in that respect) and he had a typical working class outlook on life that often got him in trouble when moving in the upper echelons of society as famous people sometimes have to do.

I for one will always remember him fondly. Not only as a great player, an even better manager, but as a plain speaker who had the courage to upset powerful people to his own detriment. I also remember him joining the picket line during the Miner’s strike....maybe another reason why he never got the Knighthood!

I admit to a damp eye when Cloughie died, whatever his views about scousers, I had a lot of respect and detached affection for him as a man and a character in the game of football. Football needs the likes of him, and look at what we have today....Rio Ferdinad saying earning £120,000 a week is boring!. Cloughie will be spinning in his grave.

I can?t say for the RS why he was hated but I think for us it went back to the first time he brought a team to Goodison. It was Derby in their Second Division winning season and we played them in the League Cup.

They were clearly fired up by Clough to beat the "fancy Dans" and played some great football for 20 minutes or so. Then Jimmy Husband through on goal was taken out with a knee high studs up assault by their "legend" Dave Mackay. It was sickening. Husband went off on a stretcher and was out for quite a while.

The rest of the game and the replay at the Baseball Ground were just brawls. Clough refused to acknowledge that there was anything wrong and was very dismissive of any questioning. We all hated him after that.

Forgot to mention.... anybody who has the DVD of the Rotterdam Cup Winners Cup Final, listen to Cloughie’s commentary. It puts the shite we hear today to shame.

I will always remember his comment after the game when talking about English Clubs winning European trophies...’nobody has done it better than Everton’..... despite two of his Clubs having already done it!

That was the measure of the man.

Micky,
Yes I do remember that game. In fact I was in the old Park End stand right above were Mackay assassinated Jimmy Husband. But Dave Mackay had always been like that, he was a dirty bastard at Spurs in his heyday and to be fair I think Everton were partly responsible for the subsequent brawls.

But I know what you mean.

Just a small point to those who have referred to the book and film "The Damned United. This is fiction based on true events, so don’t use it as too much of a basis for comments about Clough.

Great manager, strange bloke. Don’t compare what he did on a shoe-string with what Moyes has done, it’s a pointless comparison with no validity. He struggled to adapt to the modern game and this eventually led to the booze.

Good shout Stephen Ferns about Peter Taylor. Much of the credit for Clough’s achievements should be shared with Peter as they were clearly a close partnership. However, as with many people close to him Clough pushed him away and they never did make up before Clough died. Also, your point about Clough’s opinion of Liverpool was born of contempt and jealousy, just like with Leeds. He hated Leeds because they were winning, called them cheats and said they kicked their way to every trophy. His dislike of Leeds Utd (and Don Revie) was also well documented, which is why it was a shock when he got the job. Like I said, strange character.

Has noone mentioned that he could have become Everton manager in 77 after Bingham was sacked. I have a newspaper cutting which reports him as odds on for the job and has him quoted as saying he wants it. Forest were a second division team at the time and looking unlikely to get promoted. 2 years later they were European champions and we had Gordon Lee,

Is right Geoff, when Bingham got the push, the whole city seemed to think Clough was signed sealed and delivered.
I think Lee was doing well at the time, if memory serves me right he had "little Newcastle" up to fourth, but It was a major shock when he was suddenly a genuine contender.
I wouldnt mind seeing a "sliding doors" type of film, showing us what happened, had it been Clough who got the nod

I would add my voice to those who say Clough was the greatest ever top-tier manager. Simply because he twice created championship winning sides out of misfits, has-beens and journeymen.

Howard Kendall did something similar in '85 but BC did it with two unfashionable clubs and won the European Cup to boot.

There was no bigger character in the 70s and 80s than Cloughie. He bestrode English football like a Colossus and had more humour and wit in his little finger than SAF has in his entire bag of miserable bones.

He wasn?t always right with his comments, but he could make people laugh out loud at the things he said (calling Poland?s goalkeeper "a clown" for instance).

I?ll always remember seeing a game at Old Trafford in the 1980s when Manyoo were 2:0 up against Forest at half time. Cloughie must?ve said something to his boys in the interval ?cos afterwards Forest came out and battered the home side, running out winners three to two!

It?s sad to note we?ve probably seen the last of his kind. And fair do?s, Peter Taylor had a very big part in his success. RIP both.

Stephen as much I love Howard Kendall, Cloughs record is more impressive:

Derby County:
Football League Second Division 1967-1968
Football League First Division 1971-1972

Nottingham Forest:
European Cup 1979, 1980
European Super Cup: 1979
Football League First Division 1977-1978
League Cup 1977-1978, 1978-1979, 1988?1989, 1989-1990
Charity Shield: 1978

The only thing with Kendall is that there can be a big "What if"?? And thanks to our lovable neighbours and the Heysel disaster, it's a question we will always ask.

First and foremost, I do not watch ITV full stop. I would rather put my head in a lion’s mouth than watch a minute of the god awful avalanche of crap the "people" serve up on that station.

But, personal feelings aside, you cannot argue that Old Big head was the greatest manager never to manage the national side. He applied for the vacancy in 1977 but Ron Greenwood got the nod if memory serves. He put together a formidable team from that time on to the early 80’s when Forest lifted the European Cup twice, and a decade later went on to other minor trophies but were still a very good side with players such as Gary Crosby, Stuart Pearce, Neil Webb and Ian Woan who enjoyed successes in the League Cup, Simod Cup and almost won the FA cup against an average Tottenham side.

One thing I always remember reading is that once he was found by his son Nigel laying face down in a ditch near his rural residence a year or two after retirement and said that he sometimes does this. This was at a time when there were questions asked about his mental health, and general well-being. He is of course, no longer with us and I for one will say that he deserves what some may call legendary status as a manager, but I know that it rankled with him to his last breath that he never won the F.A cup as a manager.

Also, one thing supporters may not be aware of is after an Everton vs Forest game in the 1980’s Clough accused then manager Kendall of being a "Young Pup".

Asked to comment Howard said ,"Sorry I can’t say anything, I’m a hush puppy".

I remember the Clough Bingham thing too. I think the then bosses at Everton and England bottled it due to his outspoken ways.

Say what you like, he knew how to put a team together and get them wound up. He got promotion with 2 different teams and won the old 1st div with 2 different teams and don’t forget his 2 Euro cups.

He once phoned down to the boot room for some tea.

Allegedly

New Apprentice: what do you mean bring you some tea.

BC; don’t you know who I am?

New apprentice: do you know who ’ I ’ am??

BC: no

New apprentice: Well get your own fuckin tea then and hangs up

As some geniuses do he fell over the fine line that separates genius from madness