The Mail Bag

Born... not Manufactured

Comments (38)

It was interesting to read David Moyes's comments recently that he had given his plan to the board for next season and if cash was as scarce as this season then we would be lucky to stay in the top ten.

We have all gone on in varying degrees of positiveness about the "Everton Way" and "Youth development" as the way forward in the absence of funds and I have to say it's been a pleasure to see Rodwell, Anichebe and Gosling develop this season. However, I don't think any among us has the confidence that we have another "Rooney" on our hands at any stage of development on our books at the moment. Kissock is a great talent but looks to be another Ossie ie, too lightweight for the Premier League.

And that for me is the rub. The best players are born not manufactured. You can develop kids so far but the difference in a top class player is usually natural ability within themselves. Ferguson, although I hate saying it, was amongst the first to identify this and sent people around the country poaching all the top class kids when he first came to United.

So how do we find these players?

I thought the "Everton way" was a step in the right direction but that required players to come to the club's camp for trials amongst thousands of others, thereby diluting the chance of finding raw natural talent.

The one area I question with EFC is our scouting network. Steve Bruce at Wigan has unearthed some South American gems from setting up a scouting network there. I also believe with our South African connections there must be opportunity there and not forgetting Russia where there is definitely lots of talent.

Based on the opportunities for first team action, EFC has to be an attractive proposition for a kid but we need to be out there spreading the Everton gospel and scouting network which I don't believe we are.
Jay Harris, Liverpool     Posted 26/03/2009 at 17:50:47

back Return to the Mail Bag

Comments

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer


Lee Rogers
1   Posted 27/03/2009 at 04:44:14

Report abuse

What about Jose Baxter ? he's supposed to be a massive talent.
Chris Keightley
2   Posted 27/03/2009 at 07:36:31

Report abuse

Baxter!! You are having a laugh ? too lightweight, not really been considered this season... will end up playing Championship football, as will Anichebe, Vaughan, Kissock, Agard etc.
Gavin Ramejkis
3   Posted 27/03/2009 at 08:01:24

Report abuse

Our scouting system is criminal and you have to question if it really exists, if some tin pot outfit like Wigan can find three or four players for buttons who turned out to be worth a fortune you really need to ask yet again why Everton is ran so shabbily.
Paul O'Hanlon
4   Posted 27/03/2009 at 09:27:15

Report abuse

Under Moyes I?ve always had the feeling that our scouts mainly focus on talent within the UK. He?s very rarely gone in Europe and picked a gem so effectively as he has from the lower leagues in Britain.

And whatever scout told him Fellaini was a £15m central midfielder needs showing the door! Handful up front... yes, box-to-box or playmaking midfielder? ... No!
Patty Beesley
5   Posted 27/03/2009 at 09:35:24

Report abuse

What happened to Everton getting the sole rights to the Football Manager database with a view to obtaining the best European talent?
Mark Stone
6   Posted 27/03/2009 at 09:38:47

Report abuse

Chris, Baxter has suffered injuries this season which is why he’s not been in and around the first team more. Add to that ... he’s 16!
Stan Sheppard
7   Posted 27/03/2009 at 09:44:25

Report abuse

I think Gavin is right. Wigan got Valencia from El Nacional, Palacios and Figueroa from Deportivo Olympia all for undisclosed fees. Each player had come on an inital loan deal with a view to a permanent transfer at the end of the season.

According to the press, all of these players had been doing the rounds in Europe trying to impress clubs in France, England and Spain. For whatever reason we lost out.

DM has done well picking gems from the Championship but our what could a Valencia or Palacios do for our midfield?
Martin Berry
8   Posted 27/03/2009 at 09:51:45

Report abuse

The comments so far show little knowledge of how Everton's scouting is run. If any of you "bothered?" to read the Ray Hall article in the Post, then your comments may have been different! He?s the Academy Manager, just in case any of you don't know, and that article would make you proud of the way Everton's scouting and develoment of youngsters has progressed, and is going in the right direction

In the UK we have one of the best scouting networks available ? added to that, probably the best training facilty in the country at Finch Farm which will attract top youngsters, but it may take time for these youngsters to come through the system.

As for the comments about Baxter, he's only 16, for god's sake ? give him a break and time somebody, also I found a comment about Vaughan being a Championship player completly ludicrous.

The Fellaini scout to be shown the door? ? the lad's 20 and doing remarkably well in his first season, make your comments about him at the end of the next season, when he has had a fair crack. This lad will get stronger, fitter, wiser and only better, in a few years he could be unplayable, so don't go slagging him off already.

As for South American imports, rarely do you drop lucky, they need a lot of time to adapt, Castillo is Ecuador's first name on their teamsheet for his country, but not on Everton's ? does that not tell you why?

Moyes is looking British and it is paying dividends, look at our defence! Also if Fifa put a foreign number cap on your first 11, you won't be looking at South Americans or anybody else beyond this land.

Enough said.
Billy Dean
9   Posted 27/03/2009 at 10:10:13

Report abuse

Signing Palacios and Figueroa was nothing to do with Wigan’s scouting network. Arsene Wenger recommended those players to Steve Bruce when he was Birmingham manager. And they signed Valencia after he had just had a decent World Cup in Germany so he was hardly an unknown.

Unearthing these gems really is not so easy. That’s why no club does it on a regular basis. There’s a lot of risk involved. For every Palacios there’s a Segundo Castillo.

It looks like our youth setup is coming along nicely. We’ve got some decent kids coming through and there will be more in furture. There have been numerous examples of kids choosing to join us over the likes of Man U and the RS cause they know they’ll get a chance here. In 5-10 years we’ll have one of the best youth set ups around
Peter Laing
10   Posted 27/03/2009 at 10:29:08

Report abuse

Why is everyone bigging Steve Bruce up ? He looks like Les Dawson with a blue rinse. Every time I see him on the touch line I expect to see Alec Gilroy in toe, doing that impersonation of the two fat ladies. On a serious note - Wenger has been doing this for year’s on the continent with the French / Dutch ex colonies in African. For some reason Everton keep it British and considering the state of the current England team and the lack of quality player’s progressing through the England U21’s such a narrow minded system is fundamentally flawed.
Kev West
11   Posted 27/03/2009 at 11:20:20

Report abuse

What has happened to our Football Manager database of players?! Surely Moyes just needs to take his laptop on holiday with him this summer and we will have the cream of the world landing on our door step??
Kevin Gillen
12   Posted 27/03/2009 at 11:15:47

Report abuse

Absolutely right with Martin Berry. We are one of the only teams developing their own talent. British players who make the top tier of the game come at a premium. The comment about Jose Baxter above is criminal. I will wager a considerable sum that he will make it in the Premiership. Rodwell will be a future England captain. The Rooney money saved this club from lower table ignominy. Coming 5th and 6th every year in this league is a considerable achievement. The battle with the top four was lost years ago and it is not in my opinion within our gift to change that, it is far more likely that one of the top four will eventually give it away, most likely as a consequence of the credit crunch. We have scouted and brought in some talented youth but so few youngsters make it and they are not easy or cheap to recruit. It is a big gamble to buy a youth at 14 or 16 and know that he will make it at the top level.
Ian Tunny
13   Posted 27/03/2009 at 10:59:35

Report abuse

Let's be realistic and fair, Everton have brought more of their youth into the Premier League than most other teams. Some people only want to see the negatives and avoid the truth on here.

Jay you make out as if, if you're not great when you're young, you never will be; well, there are a few nearby examples which flaw your argument. You don't seem to take into account players' stages of development and growth rate.

I know a couple of people who were at school with Steven Gerrard, who said some people didn't think he was going to make it as late as 17-18 because he was too small; it was similar for David Beckam, who also developed quite late physically.

At our own club we have let the likes of Jags, Baines, Nugent and Johnson from Man City go because they weren't thought to be good enough because of their late development.

People on here need to learn to be patient, and for someone to write of Baxter as a Championship player at 16 is ludicrous. I am glad Moyes has the foresight and has learnt from the past and is willing to keep hold of players like Kissock a bit longer than maybe we would have in the past.
Larry Bird
14   Posted 27/03/2009 at 12:12:23

Report abuse

Agree fully with Martin. Moyes's ploy to develop young British talent is definitely the way forward.

As for our inferior scouting network: Arteta, Cahill and Pienaar combined cost about as much as Portsmouth paid for David Nugent?? Not bad scouting if you ask me...

Moyes and his team are turning Everton around. We used to be relegation fodder year on year, now we are disappointed if we finish outside the top 6. This is a slow process but we are doing it the right way and instilling a great team spirit along the way.

We have, in my mind, potentially the best back 4 in the league, a keeper who is prone to the odd mistake but still the best stopper we have had since big Nev and some very good striking talent. The gap is in midfield but over the next few years as Fellaini, Rodwell, Gosling develop I think we will see huge improvement here too.

If Bill can lay his hands on a few quid this summer I do think we need a midfield general. More of a Keane than a Moutinho. Phil Neville has done well there this year, always gives 100% but is limited.

Overall, Moyes, and his development of the club, is a credit to the game.
Gareth Mercer
15   Posted 27/03/2009 at 12:24:13

Report abuse

You clearly only know about Baxter what you have seen over the past year or so, because he will certainly not end up a Championship player (injuries excepting).

Did you know he broke several tournament goalscoring records between the ages of 9 and 15, most of which were previously held by a chap called Michael Owen. He has been developing nicely in the background and could, I said COULD, be a world class player.

To write him and many others off so early is a disgrace, and shows up the depth of your knowledge and support for the mighty toffees. Everton FC is not just a senior squad, why don?t you scratch beneath the surface of our wonderful club, you might learn something.

Its not only Baxter by the way, watch out for Jake Bidwell, Ross Barkley, Eunan O?Kane, Shane Duffy, Hope Akpan. Not saying they will all make it, but they are clear signs that the future is bright in our academy. They are not the only ones either.
Jamie Barlow
16   Posted 27/03/2009 at 12:41:14

Report abuse

I can’t believe what some of you are saying. Our youth set up is fantastic. Look at the players we had involved in the England games midweek. Baxter, Rodwell, Gosling, We’d be right in the shit if it wasn’t for the likes of Rodwell,Anichebe and even Gosling. Some of you have also forgot that Hibbo and Ossie were also products of our youth. As for signing these foreign players from abroad, whats wrong with signing British, or British based players. Moyes has got a quite good record of taking players from the lower leagues and turning them into great players. Cahill, 1.5 million. Jags and Lescott about 4 million each. Yobo, 4 million. Lets not forget the magician cost only 2.8 million. All these players would cost over 10 million to buy off us, so whats the problem. One last thing, lay of Wiggy for fuck sake. He’s 21 and its his first season in England. He’ll come good, don’t you worry.
Jamie Barlow
17   Posted 27/03/2009 at 12:41:14

Report abuse

I can’t believe what some of you are saying. Our youth set up is fantastic. Look at the players we had involved in the England games midweek. Baxter, Rodwell, Gosling, We’d be right in the shit if it wasn’t for the likes of Rodwell,Anichebe and even Gosling. Some of you have also forgot that Hibbo and Ossie were also products of our youth. As for signing these foreign players from abroad, whats wrong with signing British, or British based players. Moyes has got a quite good record of taking players from the lower leagues and turning them into great players. Cahill, 1.5 million. Jags and Lescott about 4 million each. Yobo, 4 million. Lets not forget the magician cost only 2.8 million. All these players would cost over 10 million to buy off us, so whats the problem. One last thing, lay of Wiggy for fuck sake. He’s 21 and its his first season in England. He’ll come good, don’t you worry.
norman merrill
18   Posted 27/03/2009 at 12:39:10

Report abuse

Well said Gareth Mercer, there is some fine young talent coming thru, the Academy, as with all youngsters, some do fall by the wayside.
But the earlier comment about Jose Baxter, was out of order.
Like all 16yr olds he is keen, but he has real ability, and given the correct
coaching the boy will be hopefully a future star at Everton.
As Gareth has mentioned there are more in the youth set up,
So just let the coaches do their job, and hope they make it.
Jason Heng
19   Posted 27/03/2009 at 13:57:40

Report abuse

Is our youth set up really that great? Why does the Academy league table say something else? (I?m asking from geniune state of ignorance about the state of affairs)

http://www.evertonfc.com/match/league-tables.html?team=8135
Seamus Murphy
20   Posted 27/03/2009 at 13:53:05

Report abuse

Chris Keightly - what have you seen of Jose Baxter that you can call a judgement like that on him at 16 years of age? And to lump Vaughan into the championship as well? ludicrous.
Your comment smacks of pure ignorance to be honest.
Paul McCann
21   Posted 27/03/2009 at 14:05:54

Report abuse

Jason,

Because several top quality youngsters qualified to play in the youth sides are in and around the first team. You can’t be in two places at once.
Chris Keightley
22   Posted 27/03/2009 at 14:31:50

Report abuse

Seamus, I'm a scout, the players I quoted that were Championship standard are, in my honest opinion, just that. Yes, like Osman they could craft a career playing with Everton but the original statement is "Born, not manufactured" ? there have been few through our academy that have set the world alight... in fact, one. And as a Blue I'd rather not waste type on him!!!
Trevor Lynes
23   Posted 27/03/2009 at 15:11:47

Report abuse

Since DM joined us we have consistently emptied out all our youngsters season after season and we have ’bought’ back Jags and Baines..I reckon he was FORCED to play the kids this season due to the playing staff being decimated. He was in the USA when Wyness bailed out so we definitely panicked and grabbed Felli at over the odds dosh !! Our bench looked like a CRECHE at the start of the season and the kids played because we had no one else...FACT !! Luckily we have seen Rodwell and Gosling do well but I believe it was more luck than management.
I am not knocking DM who has done wonders with a frankly mediocre squad further hurt by injuries to many senior players..EFC have been fantastic especially in defence, but I am certain that the kids were not played according to any pre conceived planning...it was forced on us because of the dearth of senior players fit and available to play.
The organisation and planning at the start of the season was ’OSTRICH’ like.
Justin Holland
24   Posted 27/03/2009 at 15:30:53

Report abuse

Wigan?s Valencia was signed from Villarreal on loan then made permanent. It was not one of of his scouting network gems!!!
James Smith
25   Posted 27/03/2009 at 15:40:35

Report abuse

Our concentration on British-based and English-speaking foreigners is more to do with Moyes’ shaping of squad harmony/ease of integration rather than a poor foreign network - he will only sign players he thinks are of the right mentality, and it’s a given that it’s harder to carry out the scrupulous background and personality checking he does of players that he signs if they’re from a foreign country - added to that, we’ve seen how hard it’s been for Fellaini to adjust, and Castillo/Kroldrup have somewhat failed at that transition...bringing in English-speakers/those with a work ethic helps in that regard (Pienaar, Arteta, Yobo...), and obviously for a lot of Moyes’ period we’ve not been able to spend our transfer money on players who won’t be ready for a season, Mauro is the first really in that regard.
Eric Myles
26   Posted 27/03/2009 at 16:21:40

Report abuse

Paul O’Hanlon
"Under Moyes I?ve always had the feeling that our scouts mainly focus on talent within the UK. He?s very rarily gone in Europe and picked a gem so effectively as he has from the lower leagues in Britain

’scuse me but didn’t Arteta, Pienaar, Fellaini, Van Der Meyde, Valente, Fernandez, Jacobsen, DaSilva, Castillo all come from European clubs?
Billy Dean
27   Posted 27/03/2009 at 16:41:12

Report abuse

Chris Keightley,

Are you a boy or venture scout?



Jason Heng,

The league table doesn’t tell the entire story. That team may not be top of the table, but if there are players in that team capable of developing into first teamers then that is of primary importance.

The fat twat in charge of the shite sacked Steve Heighway (ex-shite youth director) cause he focused too much on winning trophies and not enough on developing the players.
Tommy Gourlay
28   Posted 27/03/2009 at 17:24:36

Report abuse

@Jason Heng

Another reason the youth team isn’t doing as well this year as last year is maybe because - due to the first team injuries - reserve players have been pulled up to the first team, and so a lot of youth players have been pulled up to the reserves prematurely, and so [younger/lesser quality] youth players have been pulled into the youth team.
Ian Tunny
29   Posted 27/03/2009 at 17:42:51

Report abuse

Chris Keightley, you can't be a very good scout if that's what you think of Baxter and Vaughan. You weren't the same expert scout responsible for getting rid of Jags and Baines, costing the club £10m? Your not the same scout that discovered Fellaini who most on here dont think is good enough?

As you're a man in the know and have such expert knowledge about judging young talent, could you tell us the next big talents to look out for, or who you have scouted and spotted?

What ever your ability to spot talent I think it's crazy to write off a 16-year-old, considering the amount of players written off who have since blossomed, and equally the players overhyped such as Fredi Adu, Jamain Pennant, Pongolle and Le Tallec, Wayne Routledge who was rated higher than Wayne Rooney when both at youth level etc, etc.

16 is far too young to judge a player and say he is a Championship player or equally say he's a future England captain, like some have said about Rodwell after only 2 good games.
Jay Harris
30   Posted 27/03/2009 at 19:37:55

Report abuse

Chris Keighley thank you for being one of only a few posters to get my point. I was NOT criticising the youth development program. I was not criticising DM?s ability to spot a good player whether he?s English or Chinese doesn't matter to me.

I was merely asking the question how do we find the players that make the difference ? the Rooneys, Ronaldos, KakaS etc. without waiting to pay a huge fee once they are established.

Martin Berry, I thought Ray Hall had been put in charge of the "Everton Way" program which as I said was a step forward but was limited due to the fact it relies on kids turning up for trials with hundreds of others.

Can you expand on the scouting network details that the rest of us haven?t got a clue about? As far as I am aware ? and I am not saying this sarcastically ? it is a few agents not scouts.
Ian Tunny
31   Posted 27/03/2009 at 20:29:05

Report abuse

Jay, just because you haven't heard about ways in which Everton do their scouting doesn't mean they dont exist, one of which is a scheme a friend of mine set up, who is a massive blue, he has just come back from india with Robbie Earl, helping to coach and scout but also helping in the community.

http://www.kensingtonvision.org/kensingtonvision/Channels/Sport/2386.htm
Matt Thomas
32   Posted 27/03/2009 at 20:40:52

Report abuse

Lads, lads, lads... there is nothing wrong with our scouting or coaching. 10 years ago, when Franny Jeffers broke into the first team squad at 16 years of age, Kenny Dalglish (the then Newcastle manager) wanted to pay £650,000 for him, citing EFC?s scouting as the best in the Premier League... and in the next 5 yrs we will see proof of this.

Having seen the likes of Franny, Rooney, Ossie, Hibbo, Mark Hughes (no, not that one!), Michael Ball, Richard Dunne and Phil Jevons come through (to name a few) and all still be involved in the game proves the point. Ray Hall also recentley said the current crop of youngsters are the best he?s seen in years ? and that's some statement from a man not reknowned for going overboard.

It could be staggering to think the next gem like Rooney may already be here ? just be patient and hope and pray we don't go like the shite at Anfield and start bringing kids from abroad who struggle to settle but cost the club thousands in bringing them here only to move them on again... Keep the faith in Moyes we trust!!!

Jay Harris
33   Posted 27/03/2009 at 20:59:49

Report abuse

Ian, that?s very interesting and great for the kids and the community but ? and I don't want this to sound negative ? what has it got to do with Everton apart from your pal who is a blue?

I know there are lots of intiatives out there mainly aimed at helping communities and keeping kids on the straight and narrow but my point is: What can EFC do to identify and get another "Rooney"?
Ian Tunny
34   Posted 27/03/2009 at 21:16:29

Report abuse

Let's face it, Rooney was a one-off... or at least 1 in a 100 million. All Everton can do is have as many eyes out there as possible like my friend and his academy with some sort of experience at spotting talent and be the first to approach them and get them signed up. Then they can only hope with the help of the best possible coaching and training that they can one day make it into the 1st team.

If they do, then it would be a big achievement because so few do actually make the grade. To say, "How can we identify and get another "Rooney"? is more difficult than it seems because they are not only hard to come by but it's also hard to compete for their signature.

I heard from a scout whose 14-year-old nephew is a Blue and was playing for Everton but Blackburn have offered him £500 a week, and he's only 14! Is it right for Everton to go down that route?

Will Leaf
35   Posted 27/03/2009 at 21:08:35

Report abuse

Decisions have to be made at every stage of a youth player?s development. You cannot keep everyone, there are only so many positions and funds available. Some go on to develop beyond our prior expectations, Jags and Baines, some leave due to reasons beyond our control, such as Michael Johnson.

It would be interesting to see how much Everton invests in youth development all told per annum. The £27-30 million odd for Rooney and the £10 million for old "Fox in the Box" alone likely amply covers Everton?s all time youth expenditure. Make no mistake, we are envied by other clubs for our youth structure, and it is the likes of Everton and Villa that hold the future for the England team. In addition, these players are more likely to fight the Everton way, and mesh cleanly into the team spirit Moyes has moulded. You simply cannot maintain such team spirit, and it has won us many points this season, by bringing together such and such player from Equador, and such and such player from Darkest Peru.

Anyway, main point is that our youth setup is the last thing that should make you unhappy.
Dennis Karanikolopoulos
36   Posted 27/03/2009 at 21:18:38

Report abuse

Just read this article. A young player scouted by all Bundesliga clubs, Man U and Arsenal, has a dad who's a mad Everton fan and wants to join us. What is the club waiting for? Come on Moysie, get in there mate!!!

http://www.tribalfootball.com/aachen-winger-lewis-holtby-makes-come-and-get-me-plea-everton-235082

One for the doubters.... Young Gun wants Everton!

Adam Wightman
37   Posted 28/03/2009 at 03:05:18

Report abuse

When we signed 15-year-old Femi Orenuga from Southend United last month he stated:

"When I went to Everton I saw how many youth players had gone through into the first team and I think I will have a better chance with them than some of the other teams who were interested."

Maybe it helps show that our youth scouting system is working
MARTIN BERRY
38   Posted 28/03/2009 at 11:43:45

Report abuse

Well done to my fellow correspondents for some excellent threads, regardless of how you sit on this one, certainly lived up a bit.

© ToffeeWeb