As one of those recent fans from abroad, all I can reply to this is that Everton needs to remain Everton. For example, if Everton were Liverpool FC, I would not be their follower.

You may pick up some front runners and shirt sales, but consider whether you fancy quantity over quality. What I’ve heard in these parts is that Evertonians do not choose, but are chosen. This would be consistent with my experience.

I hope your premise is not that Everton must become something that is not Evertonian to become a world football superpower. If that is your position, I would disagree. Let’s see what the future brings - remember, the status quo looks most impermeable just before it breaks.

Every supporter of every club wants their club to win matches and ultimately trophies, however, Everton FC are cursed or blessed with a need from many of its supporters to win and to win with style.

Given the economics of modern day football, winning trophies is more of a challenge than it was in the 1980s. I even think many Evertonians would forgive not winning trophies if the team played with adventure and panache, but the need to stay in the PL has made the game more defensive and less easy on the eye. The pragmatists are winiing the battle and to a certain extent the war.

Look at this season?s PL: none of the top 4 have set the pulses racing on a regular basis, all are difficult to beat and hard-working with pockets of inspiration showing now and again.

But Everton and those other clubs outside the elite 4 cannot continue to languish and become the also-rans forever as the game itself will suffer. Look at Formula 1, not my favourite sport, but it was becoming all too predictable and thus boring until the credit crunch forced them to alter their rules and now we have a more competitive sport, albeit until the big teams re-assert themselves and circumvent the new rules.

Football, in my opinion, needs to rediscover what it is meant to be, a game between two teams who, on any given day, can win or lose based on their skill levels and not by the size of their sponsor.

Having said that Everton FC are required to win and win with style ? on April 19th at Wembley I?m sure none of us will care how we do it as long as we win and progress to win the final as well.

Hi Rezzie

You typed this "I hope your premise is not that Everton must become something that is not Evertonian to become a world football superpower. If that is your position, I would disagree."

That is part of my point I guess - if we win consistently enough to become that ’football superpower’ how would it change Everton FC? Several people seem to hold similar opinions to you - that they fear real success would change something and make Everton unsupportable by those people - but what is it you fear will change??

This sounds alarmingly like we don’t actually want to win consistently & we are happy with things the way they are - but with maybe a few silver pots thrown in.
Surely that isn’t being the best - Nil satis and all that?

This sounds alarmingly like we don?t actually want to win consistently & we are happy with things the way they are ? but with maybe a few silver pots thrown in. Surely that isn?t being the best ? Nil satis and all that?

Not at all. The whole point of Nil satis is keeping the standard at the top. Will more money and more wins change Everton and their supporters? Yes. They will be happier. Are they happier having put the RS away in the FA Cup? Absolutely. Will that change the essence of what it is to be Evertonian? I?m not person to answer that ? those who were here in 70 and 85 and 95 and all the years between, good and bad, are the people to answer that. My gut feeling is that it will not.

Imagine this club as Premier League or Champions League winners. We just don?t know what the future holds, for good or bad, I just know I love watching this team play good football and win. If they play bad football and win, I like it better than when they play good football and lose.

I?m an American, and I think Vince Lombardi was right ? winning is not the most important thing, it?s the only thing. That said, his teams were beautiful to watch, and unstoppable ? you knew exactly what was coming, and you didn?t have a prayer of stopping it.

The playing of the game wasn?t a matter of aesthetics, though ? it was all about having a comprehensive theory of the game, exercising the will to stay true to that theory, and mastering consistency of execution. It doesn?t matter what kind of football you watch ? these principles are just as true of both. This is what drew me to this team, and this is what will keep me here.

I think Rezzie?s broached an important philosophical point ? my reading of Nil Satis Nisi Optimum has always been that winning is important, but no more important than the manner of the victory. When the champagne bottles have been drained, you don?t want to hear the words "cheats", or "boring", or any of their ilk. The 80s side were praised for their football, and their attitude, and not just by their fans.

The last trophy winners have been stuck with the epithet of the Dogs of War, and I?ve come to hate that term, because the implication has always been that from round three they kicked teams out of the cup. In fact this was Everton?s first resurgence in the post-Sky era, and it?s a measure of how fast things had changed that from the quarter-finals onwards Everton were the underdogs in a new era in which underdogs were a bit of a pain in the hole for the people raking money in from the game.

This was the year when the Dream Final was to be United v Spurs (notwithstanding that Spurs had been kicked out of the Cup then re-instated under threat of legal action). Everton ruined all that by accounting for both of them. Not by kicking the knee-caps off them, but by taking the ball off them and putting it in their net.

The Da was born the year after the 1933 cup win, and was nearly thirty before he saw them win the League Championship. He?d seen them relegated, promoted, "play some truly woeful football", but he was a season-ticket holder in ?63, because they were His Team.

He stuck with them because he was stuck with them. As ? because of him ? am I. They?ve given me and him some truly woeful Saturday, Monday and Wednesday nights, but they?ve given us great joy.

We?ve sat together in the pub in mute misery, shaking our heads at the mention of Brett Angell, or Bernie Wright, or Rod Belfitt. We?ve sat in the same pub dissecting how exactly Trevor Steven got round that defender, and debating whether he knew that shot was going in the roof of the net, or Row P.

We?ve been through Moores, Carter, Johnson and Kenwright, but only briefly, because that?s not taking place on grass, and there?s sod all either of us can afford to do about them.

Ironically, although it was undoubtedly an ad-man?s confection for a club that has a tenuous hold on its soul, the Theatre of Dreams is a term that applies to every ground in the country, from Goodison Park to (apologies to Taunton folk) Taunton. It?s about eleven men running onto a pitch surrounded by people who wish they were wearing those shirts ... well, OK, wish we were running onto that pitch while we were wearing the shirts.

Speaking of wearing, Tony Marsh can be, but even when I disagree with him, I admire his rage. It?s a coherent, eloquent anger, unlike some of the neanderthal name-calling that litters the broadsheet blogs.

In summation, to bring this maundering to an end, I?m trying to work out how being an Evertonian has affected my life, and I think it boils down to ? and I think I?ve cited Sam Beckett before ? ?Try. Fail. Try Again. Fail better.?

And if I can dare to put a gloss on the great man ?Never give up. Never go down?.

My opinion on the original article is that it is bollocks, I apologise but I will explain why I think this way.......

Every club's supporters shout about the actions & characteristics that they particularly agree with and like or that the club excel in, they also use that to batter down other clubs' achievements whilst debating with other clubs fans normally.

For example, our rivals over the way have (unfortunately) been severely more successful than we have in the last 30 years, so we use the obvious arguments of our history, our local fanbase etc and more recently our lack of average/poor foreign players and managers in comparison with them as they would anhilate us if we got down to it & compared trophies, finals, success etc.

To suggest that a team's fan, especially nowadays, have any influence over the club's attitude and the way it is run, and has always been run, is pathetic & irrelevant. Our opinions are the most vocal yet the least important, never forget that.

We would jump at the chance to have Asians, Scandinavians, Yanks & all comers wanting to support our great club as it would mean that we have achieved the success on the pitch that all Evertonians crave! But, seeing as we don't have that, we will continue to support our team the way we have done for the last 100+ years and argue with rival supporters about the qualities of our club... for better or for worse!

It is pleasing to get responses that essentailly agree with my point ? winning comes first.

I lived through the awful 70s and the incredible disbelief of the first half of the 80s ? I want that success back and I believe we are getting there; but for injuries, this year we looked to have improved on last year. A Uefa Cup win is realistic at the very least.

No-one has replied in the way I had hoped. My original criticiser stated that my attitude was ?like that of a Liverpool fan? because I put winning first (at least that is how I read it). We now have here a group of Everton fans who believe that that is also the attitude of an Everton fan, but in the absence of winning trophies we have to ?pretend? that winning isn?t everything that makes a club great ? and that makes some sense to me when talking to an RS fan but these people were talking to an Evertonian i.e. me!

Perhaps that group of people have been defending not winning for so long now that they have started believing it themselves to some extent?

My message is to those who have responded here ? I am greatly comforted to know there are those with the same mindset as myself. My opinion is that Everton FC needs to make every effort to win once again ? making sacrifices, going into what manageable debt it can, taking calculated risk...

To those who still feel there are more important things that make up Everton FC than winning ? I believe you are setting the cart before the horse. We cannot become a museum piece and look backwards. Everton FC do tremendous things for various communities but those are peripheral issues compared with what a football club is about.

For Everton FC to rejoin the elite we will all have to experience some pain ? some of it financial, some possibly even logistical and some of it emotional ? but if, at the end of it all, we are in a better position to compete for the very top then that is a good thing.

"For a football team, what is more important than winning? "

1. Singing in the bath
2. Being picked to sit on the bench at England matches
3. Getting loads of money for doing very little.
4. Getting loads of money without having any talent. (See also Stars in Their Eyes, Big Brother etc.)
5. Being constantly in the ?media eye?.
6. Being spotted, regularly, falling out of London?s most chic nightclubs with 3 women on each arm or in the case of.....
7. Being relegated in the 93rd minute of the last match and going down a ?hero?.

I want to win every game, and win it in style.

I want to win every trophy there is to win, every season.

I want someone to come in who has got cash, and give us a world class 70,000 seater stadium, that will be full to the rafters.

I want us to be buying the Kaka?s, Messi?s of this world.

At the end of the day, isn?t that what we all want?

Having integrity and decency, is more important than winning to me. If being a winner meant behaving like Liverpool and being glory seekers, then I'd be happy to never win a trophy agian.

I would support Everton if they were in Coca Cola League 2 and lower. I get the feeling a lot of Liverpool fans wouldn't.

I couldn't support a team that cheated or behaved like Man Utd players hounding refs and diving doing what ever it takes to win, or a manager that talks complete crap all the time who is disrespectful like Benitez.

No i must admit, winning isn't everything to me; I think that's more of a Liverpool or Man Utd attitude and suppose that is why they are more successful ? because they will win at all costs.

Hi Ian; Yours is precisely the attitude that inspired me to write this thread ? I am trying to understand it and what you wrote explains a lot.

Yours is an attitude that inspired Corinthian values of fair play ? the good old gentleman versus players debate ? and I can see your point.

I would say that not many remember the dubious tactics when it comes to counting the trophies or the cash, but I fully respect your principles.

I do think that the tactics you describe can be a small part of building a winning mentality into a team ? those that expect to win and take defeat as a personal affront. The likes of Keane have taken that too far in the past BUT most successful teams have had such a character, and there is many a call for Moyes to sign just such a player every year ? the midfield general.

I was tempted to suggest that your attitude is one from the past, but instead I would say it is one to be cherished and supported as a guide to how to win well rather than just win ? a moral victory I guess.

So you have shown me something that is more important than winning, at least theoretically. I must say I would still rub my hands in delight if we did sign just such a character in the summer because I still want to win ? perhaps to show those ?cheaters? that they can?t have it all their own way.

Would I want Everton to win off the back of a dive or two? Probably not but professional sport is a very tough game and the boundaries of acceptability are pushed all the time. How many remember Keane kicking Man U to the top? How many remember him as a winner? Regrettably there is little room in the modern game for the purist, and I am sure that has been true since professionalism entered every game.

Graham
Your article refers to winning "games" as opposed to trophies. I assume you are referring to winning trophies. Whilst we all want to win trophies as often as possible, it cannot and should not be, the sole objective otherwise you adopt that crass mantra spouted by the RS namely:-

?Liverpool Football Club exists solely to win trophies? ? If that is the case, then LFC has ceased to exist for the last two (and hopefully, three) seasons.