You're 100% correct of course, Karl. Arsenal were perennial trophy winners until they moved; yes, they have a fantastic stadium ? totally different class to the one planned in Kirkby ? but they have been in steady decline on the pitch since the move... they are even struggling for a CL place and if they don?t get it, can they recover?

Just look at the record:
Leicester, sunk
Derby, sunk
Reading, sunk
Southampton, sunk
Boro, sinking
Sunderland, sinking
Bolton, rejected by their own fans ? like DK would be
City, laughing stock

These people who constantly tell us moving is the only solution would really enhance their argument if the could give us just one example of when a club moving actually proved to be a success.

Totally agree, I also read a report in one of the broadsheets last week that the need for corporate boxes in football stadia is set to demise, who does he think is going to fill ours with one of the poorest fanbases in the country ? crocky X5 driving teenage gangsters?

Now Dave Wilson I think there are other factors at play here.

Arsenal?s deprivation of trophies also coincided with the Abromovich revolution at Chelsea - I think this is a more proximate cause.

Sunderland and Middlesborough have both done better in terms of results and legaue position with new stadia than with their old grounds. As have Reading and Bolton.

Leicester and Derby are simply reverting back to their normal position. Occasionally top flight, mostly second division.

Southampton have run out of money and can?t get re-financing. Sadly this is likely to affect other clubs in the current envrionment. I do not know if the financing of their new stadium is a factor in this.

City may be a laughing stock but that status pre-dates their stadium move. I have big reservations about Kirkby but do not think there is any correlation between moving grounds and drops in performance on the pitch (except perhaps in the first few matches at the "new" home).

I come from a large family of match-going Blues, I also have a large circle of Evertonian friends; 2 will go to Kirkby, 2 are undecided, while a staggering 36, including myself have no intention of going anywhere near the place.

If these figures are replicated across the board, our great club will IMO cease to exist in the near future. I think it is quite shameful that Kenwright should be playing Russian Roulette with our great club.

Why should we be held to ransom by Phillip Green? I despair at Evertonians coming on this site saying we have no choice. I say bollocks to the lot of you!!! Can?t you see the bigger picture?

Re Paul Gladwell:

Interesting that you mention that the need for corporate boxes is set to demise.

I am annoyed that the club are having provisions to have them have them behind the goal in the home end as a future fit out.

Coupled with, or so I believe, our inability to sell out the current ones, there is a possibility that the ones behind the goal may never even be used.

Is it really worth sacrificing atmosphere on the off chance that we may one day sell out all executive boxes down the sides and behind the goals?

David, If Arsenal were runners-up to Chelsea I could accept your agument, but they weren?t. Clubs like Pompey, Spurs and Liverpool have all won trophies since Arsenal last did so the Abromovich factor isn't really the reason for the Gunners on the pitch demise.

Leicester were always in the Prem when they played at Filbert Street ? even getting to cup finals; Sunderland and /or Boro could quite easily go down and do you really believe Southampton would be in this position if they hadn?t spent millions on St Mary?s?

By the way, Coventry were one of the longest serving members of the top flight before they built their new stadium... whatever happened to them?

You and I both know what I?m doing here David, but I?ve thrown the question out ? Where is the success story? Show me a club who can say they are now significantly stronger for putting themselves into hock by spending millions for a new stadium.

The fact that nobody can makes the planned move to Kirkby just plain illogical.

DK is at best ill-thought-out and at worst a disaster waiting to happen. I for one will refuse to step foot in the Tescodome if it ever happens and there are thousands more like me. It has nothing to do with loyalty and all to do with not going along with Kenwright and his cronnies after they have conned us all.

Like I have said before, by going to a new ground in Kirkby to watch Everton, I would be giving it my blessing and I totally refuse to do so. You wouldn't go for a Bevy with someone who has just nicked your wallet would you?

Unless there is a major rethink, the club will be relegated within 3 years of the move. Will BK be bothered? NO WAY ? his pockets will be well lined by then...

Dave Wilson - I agree with the root of your argument and I too feel that Kirkby (especially in the current climate) can only bring financial woe to our club. However, you are a little free and easy with your facts. You blow away Dave Ellis?s argument swiftly with the throw away comment of other teams won things, but then you proceed to use flimsy arguments to back up what I feel is a valid point.

"By the way, Coventry were one of the longest serving members of the top flight before they built their new stadium... whatever happened to them?" ? I think you?ll find Dave that Coventry were relegated in 2001, some time before they moved to the Ricoh Arena in August 2005. You?re right about Leicester, but they were relegated in their last season at Filbert Street and Southampton haven?t been a good side in a very long time, St Mary?s or not.

Like I said, I feel you make a valid point about "success stories" but outside of the top 4, who can you really call a success story? I don?t think it?s as simple as you are trying to make it.

DK is a complete disaster from a project perspective. The club has no viable alternative and until placed in a corner by well meaning supporters and press alike BK wouldn’t even admit there was a plan B. Any project worth the paper it’s written on will have definitive alternatives and more importantly the ability to halt dead in it’s tracks if at ANY POINT in it’s lifespan it becomes no longer viable in relation to the owner’s business model. Surely the two glaringly obvious problems are that the club is an enabler for another company and not the other way around - Tesco need Everton to get a huge supermarket not Everton needing Tesco who would then join the area and build a supermarket and the red card of the global recession which should be duly and diligently analysed with worst case secenarios in mind.

How many season ticket holders have been hit by the recession and simply won’t be able to justify the expense of a season ticket? How many non season ticket holders but regular match goers simply don’t have the disposable income to keep going to the match as often as they do now or even at all? How many match going supporters who just about manage to juggle their finances to get to Goodison will be able to incur the additional costs to go to an out of town stadium with the additional travel and parking costs?

As far as the corporates are concerned I still can’t see the logic attracting corporates in their masses to a stadium with no additional nearby attractions for post match activities with Liverpool or Manchester offering both and those corporates would only increase with on field success which is reliant on spending which Kirkby simply doesn’t give the club.

You?ll probably find that these clubs have suffered because they have shit managers or because decent managers have left them.

Leicester where doing well because of Matin O?Neill, Bolton with Allardyce,
Saints and City have been messed around by too many managers,
Reading where the most successful they?ve ever been at the time of the new ground, they faltered when the money dried up and Coppell got fed up.

Sunderland and Boro will always be yoyo clubs, always have been.

The key to us making it if we go to Kirkby or stay where we are is up to Moyes. The money has dried up in football, it's going to be down to the staff at all clubs to get their acts together and start earning their wages.

Admittedly in the ballot I did vote for the move to Kirkby but now I have serious reservations. Although I don?t think moving to a new ground will affect us on the pitch, something about it now just doesn?t feel right.

It would please me no end for us to build a new ground in the city but does anyone believe this is gonna happen without Tesco? I don?t.

And as for boycotting us if we move to Kirkby?? What a load of bollocks!! If it happens, let's take it on the chin and get behind the team! COYB!!

Andrew, if it happens you say take it on the chin, I say if it’s going to happen then we should fight to improve it.

Plan A is to stop it. Plan B needs to be to improve it just in case it happens.

A lot of what you say rings true, but listing Arsenal as a club suffering from the move. They are actually a very well run club looking beyond the next year or two. The total cost of their current squad is only the 9th most expensive in the league so being 4th is quite an achievement. Incidentally our squad is the 12th most expensive which tells you how well we are doing too.

The fact is, Arsenal are careful with money, and it won?t be long before they consistently reap the rewards. They are certainly not in demise, just in transition. Unfortunately, I don?t think you can call what is happenign to us a "transition". Shame.

COYB

The link that so many of you make between getting a new stadium and doing badly is fascinating.

So this is nothing to do with club or team management, it?s just down to new stadiums? What utter drivel. Southampton are run by a slippery idiot, who reversed his company into the club (a bizarre transaction in the first place) and has no empathy with the club, nevermind its fans. But even Southampton were doing OK when they had Gordon Strachan or Davey Jones in charge of the team.

Then Reading (sunk, apparently, according to Dave Wilson). Get real will you. This club have spent almost their entire existence outside of the top division. Their stadium was funded by a rich & devoted chairman and is a deliberately modest venue. They were unfortunate to drop out of the EPL due to a serious injury crisis, but are sitting rather well in the championship and can easily return this season. Possible the best team in the Championship. Sunk? don?t talk bollocks.

Then Sunderland. Also sunk? Well, not yet they?re not. Their stadium, and indeed the club, is reasonably funded. The stadium gives them a revenue stream they could only have dreamed about a decade ago and their fans love it. They are middle/lower table but won?t go down. The also have new investors and an excellent chairman. How the fuck are Sunderland sunk?

Then we have Derby. Now I need some help here too. Their stadium is almost full for every game, despite them having done none too well of late. Hmm. They only came up from the Championship a couple of years ago. Very unexpectedly & rather prematurely. Their manager & team were not god enough. Nor was the replacements of Paul Jewell etc. They now have a good, intelligent young manager who has them winning some games and playing good football. Many people fancy them for a challenge next season. Right now most Derby fans are happy and optimistic. But you say they?re sunk?

Then we have the fabulous Bolton. A team with a small but newish stadium that many on here see as the vile model for a new EFC stadium. Also sunk? Well, they came up from the second division and held their own in the top division for a long time, and still do. They get small gates and in no way can be compared to Everton in terms of fan base or recent history. To call them sunk is to spout drivel upon drivel. But hey, why use facts when you can avoid them?

Then he labels Man City, not as sunk, but as a laughing stock. Well, they play in an excellent new stadium out of town and it?s more or less full all the time. They have recently been acquired by a very rich man who wants to transform them into a big club. They are also run by a prick of a CEO who has marginally less acumen than taste and who has rattled a few cages. It?s not how I want Everton to be. But to label them a laughing stock is facile. I disapprove of their model, but they will be challenging very soon. So yeah, major laughing stock.

As for the comparison with Leicester, just how ridiculous do you want your argument to get? Just take a look at their average league, position, attendance for the last xx years and maybe the penny will drop. You may also wish to examine how they were doing when, for once, they had a good manager (O?Neill).

And Arsenal have been in steady decline since they moved too apparently. So nothing to do with the change over of players like Henry, Hleb etc & Wenger building a new team, nor the bad injuries. All down to a beautiful new stadium that is full every game and generates a fortune for them.

I can't get my head around why some people are so capable of separating wheat from chaff and somehow keep hold of the chaff. New stadiums do not cause decline. Poor management on & off the pitch, bad performances, not winning enough games. Now they cause decline.

By your arguments, Everton will have to stay at Goodison for ever. Despite its appalling facilities and the unavoidable & unaffordable cost of upgrade, & the huge upheaval.

It?s the easiest thing in the world to say no, maintain a closed mind and just throw stones at new ideas. Had that philosophy taken root early on we?d all still be grunting in caves and there?d be no football in any case.

To all cavemen of the world... enjoy.

If the theory is right , we can at least take comfort from knowing that the Shite will be playing Crewe and Cheltenham Town in a few years time.

Here is my two pence worth!

I?m an Everton fan but I live near Darlington, hence when I was younger, about 16, I started going to the Darlington home matches in the mid 90s. For any of you that don?t know they used to have a little stadium called Feethams.

Now Feethams was perfect, it had it?s own aura about the place, the fans loved it and every home game was packed in and the atmosphere for a attendance of 3,000 was brilliant, the noise used to echo off the tin roofs and their record at home was exceptional, claiming many big scalps in the cups over the years and getting to a Wembley play-off final twice.

My point is I used to go for the atmosphere and the day out as it was a 5-minute walk from the town centre, so was easy access to and from, and great for having a few pints before and after too.

Now they moved to a new excellent 27,000 seater stadium I think it is, excellent facilities, on the edge of town which many need buses or taxi?s to get to. I haven?t been for years as the atmosphere is terrible. As you can imagine, 3,000 spread out in a large stadium doesn?t create much atmosphere, they have one side of the ground constantly closed as there is no point opening it.

Fans aren?t going anymore, prices have increased to pay for stadium which includes pies, pints also. The team has deteriorated, who wants to play in a passionless stadium every week? And if you do not know, they are in administration at the moment and in desperate need of a buyer or face going under.

They are losing money every week, I heard they need at least 6,000 fans a week just to break even, when they were averaging 3,000. Bad management which has ruined the club, people thinking too far ahead.

Be careful what some if you wish for!!!

Tony Marsh ? hang on a minute. Whilst I agree with your prediction, the newly brewstered BK will be distraught (remember IN HIS HEAD it won?t be anything to do with him).

I can?t imagine him missing out on the chance to go on MotD to tell everyone how terrible it is and what a big blue he is and about Dave Hickson and how we?ll be back and how we?ve got ("which I gave the club before selling"!) a great set up/stadium to build from ad infinitum/nauseum. His performance will be like he?s playing the Mum at the end of Blood Brothers!

"It?s the easiest thing in the world to say no, maintain a closed mind and just throw stones at new ideas."

Alan you mentioned about Southampton?s Chairman having no empathy with the fans. Well consider this: A number of faults have been reported to Everton with the new stadium with ways to rectify them.

Refer to your above sentence for Everton?s actions.

Neil, The intention wasn't to "blow away" David's argument, I just pointed out that the Abromovich factor wasn't the reason for Arsenal's on-pitch demise. It was that they chose to pay for a stadium rather than replace, Vierra, Pettite, Bergkamp...

You say Liecester were relegated at Filbert Street, but I can tell you now, I distinctly remember big Dunc getting his marching orders for wanting to strangle Fruend at the Walker Stadium.

When Coventry committed themselves to the Rioch, they stopped buying the standard of player that would keep them in the Prem. Sure, they survived a couple of years, just, but it was one or the other.

When a young Wayne Rooney warmed up down the line at St Marys, Southampton were in a healthy position, but like the others had to pay for the place and were no longer able to afford Prem-standard players.

Everton will be no exception; our team is decent enough but we can afford precious few signings and struggle to strengthen now. We don't have Mega-rich people backing us like Sunderland or Boro. Be of no doubt ? if we commit to DK we will die a not very slow death... just like the rest of them.

Alan Kirwin - I don?t think anyone is saying no for a reason. I think even the people who want to move to Kirby have a few doubts in their mind. Look at Spurs new plans for a stadium for gods sake, it?s everything that ours isn?t. We all know Kirby is not right, the ones who think it is are ?hoping?.

Yes, Goodison is in need of a facelift or we do need to move. But out of the city to a shite excuse of a stadium that we will probably have to live in for the future of EFC is not the answer! I don?t remember many complaints about the Kings Dock, no because we knew it was right.

Alan Kirwin, well done sir, that?s another Cassandra shot down in flames.

Lee Robinson, interesting story. Two things spring to mind. Darlington, from what you are saying, went from 3,000 to 27,000, whereas Everton are going from about 36,000 to 50,000. So that is not comparable.

However, I do take the rest of your points. In particular, you said about fans going to Feethams to enjoy the atmosphere. Yet Everton have failed to do anything to improve atmosphere for a regular match at Goodison and have designed Kirkby in such a way that it will inhibit the atmosphere. Why? I don?t know.

Alan Kirwin, back with the insults I see.

If you can't see that nearly every club who have ever moved have made a simple choice, spend money on the stadium or on the players/ manager, then you are indeed the cave dweller.

Last time I posted, there were one or two people who posted in response, inferring I was long-winded.

KEIOC!

(hope that?s more to your liking).

Peter - You're right, 27,000 seater stadium was ridiculous, but to pay for the new stadium they still needed a higher turnover of supporters than they were getting; this will apply to Everton surely. I just can?t see how moving out of a vibrant city to Kirkby will do this, especially as it?s more dificult to get to.

I am also really not keen on the new design.

Dave - I am not going to pick holes in your arguments again cos it’ll go o forever. I actually see some merit inwhat you are saying but feel that the evidence you use is sketchy at best. You are right about big dunc at the walkers, but look it up... they were relegated in their last season at Filbert Street. Shit! That means they came back up whilst in the new stadium, doesn’t that go against the grain of the original argument.

My point is you present your oopinion as fact - "I just pointed out that the Abromovich factor wasnt the reason for Arsenals on pitch demise. it was that they chose to pay for a stadium rather than replace, Vierra, Pettite, Bergkemp" - In your opinion Dave. This is only their 3rd season at The Emirates and they are still in the FA Cup and Champions League, so again I feel they are a weak example of your point.

For me this is tin-pot logic. Make the facts fit your argument, which, as I stated before, I thought had some merit to begin with. Mainly because I feel that a new stadium is a massive financial risk at any time, never mind in the current climate. Of course it will affect the club’s ability to spend money on players and subsequently if the club don’t achieve as much then it can be blamed on the stadium. It doesn’t prove it is the cause. Teams with plenty of money have had poor seasons (Tottenham, Newcastle).

Anyway, we’ll agree to disagree on that point, but one thing we do agree on is the uncertainty and risk of entering into such a large financial gamble at this time.

Dick Fearon

Alan Kirwin claims most derby fans are optimistic, I have one sitting next to me ? he?s suicidal. He names managers who kept their clubs healthy ? they have been relegated

He says I said Sunderland were sunk - I didn't

He also claims I said Bolton are sunk - again I didn't

If you want to applaud a post by someone who's spent a long long time boring the arse off everyone refuting claims he THOUGHT he?d read, feel free.

Why do the clueless always invade the best threads?

Dave Wilson

I too know Derby fans, several in fact. I repeat my assertion, they are optimistic and happy. They believe that they will prosper under Nigel Clough and, if they do ever go up again, will have a better chance of staying there.

As for you dancing on a pin head over the precise wording on 2 of the many clubs you listed, well, here’s what you actually said.

Just look at the record
Leicester, sunk
Derby , sunk
Reading, sunk
Southampton, sunk
Boro, sinking
Sunderland ,sinking
Bolton, rejected by their own fans - like DK would be
City. laughing stock.

So, Sunderland are only sinking. Compared to what? But really sorry that I mistook the mention of Bolton on your list for being a negative one. Can’t think how the word "sunk" became embedded.

Utterly facile post. Pure opinion, no content. The quality of this thread owes zero to your clueless intrusion.

Lol ? don?t get into debates with Dave Wilson, he?s tenacious, he won?t give up... he battered me in one last week sometime!!

As much as it grates me to agree with Dave, he?s spot on.

Trying to refute the suggestion that new stadiums do not have a negative effect on teams without due consideration of the causal fiscal imbalance in team improvement ? is silly to say the least.

A few ingredients you may wanna throw into the cauldron are ? a complete lack of internal funding, the wholesale removal future revenue streams, fan disapproval and the current financial climate...

If you give that pot a stir ? the logic will not come out any other way ? our team WILL be affected.

But then again, you could choose to ignore this logic and get lost in an inconsequential handbag throwing contest that completely ignores the causal factors and the impact of a stadium move.

Alan, Derby is a good example of a crappy out of town new stadia build. The Baseball ground was intimidating and atmospheric, Pride Park is a shed on an industrial estate, sharing car park space with MFI and a Frankie and Bennys amongst others. MFI gone under now too... hhmm.

You are debating the anti Kirkby posters so I assume you are a ’yes man’. Kirkby will be comparable with Pride Park (though god knows the word pride will not be associated with it) so for the record, you’d swap Goodison for something like that? Everton is about the emotions... our history, tradition, Z Cars and so on and so forth.... Kirkby does not fit. Maybe if we are lucky, a group of school kids will take to banging on the back of the stand during the game to generate ’atmosphere’ ala Pride Park... cant wait.

I wont step foot in the Tescodome.

Saints owners in administration

The business is heavily in debt after spending more than £30m on the 32,000-seat St Mary?s Stadium, which they moved to from The Dell in 2001, before being relegated from the Premier League in 2005.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/southampton/7976473.stm

Ben Jones

You my friend were worth crossing swords with



Alan kirwin

having spent an eternity refuting what you thought I said why do you feel the need to send a copy of what I actually did say ? guess what ? I already know, please stop embarrasing yourself its getting uncomfortable



Neil
yes we’ll have to agree to disagree, I know Leicester went down at Filbert street - coincidently the big fella got his marching orders that season too - the point I was making, is . . like Derby Southampton, Sunderland and Reading. Leicester believed playing top flighjt football for the first time in a shiny new ground was proof they were heading in the right direction . . .they were all relegated (sunk). coincidence ?
and yes your right, it is only my opinion that Arsenal chose to move into a new ground rather than replace world class stars, but I think its a pretty fair to suggest they couldnt do both.

The clueless (Kirwins) will wait patiently for their success story - though it could be a while - then they’ll shout it from the roof tops, conveniently forgrttting all the crashing falls suffered by the clubs who overstretched themselves

In many ways this ongoing,painful debate could be called "between a rock and a soft place". The "rock" is of course the cold,stark reality of trying to finance a club in the Premier League whose supporters aspire to much more than just surviving. The "soft place" is leaving a stadium which is our football spiriitual home full of wonderful memories and tradition. Am I alone in almost finding this debate too painful to make a decision on ? In essence, I feel that there is a paradox here in that I find both sides of the argument convincing. When my heart and my head are in conflict all I feel is a aense of profound sadness and uncertainty.

Here?s my view on a slightly different angle:

One of the things I despise most in the world of sport is lazy journos. Have you noticed that whenever Arsenal?s stadium is discussed, it?s accompanied by adjectives such as ?marvellous? and ?modern?. Whenever anyone refers to, say, Coventry?s Ricoh Arena, it?s ?bland? and ?soulless?.

If we ever move, we will be labelled as such, because it?s easier for journos to spout the standard line about clubs, without much regard to reality. Do you think if we and them across the park built identical stadiums, they would be described identically? No, of course not. Ours would be ?cheap?, ?bland?, ?economical? whilst theirs would be ?exciting?, ?electrifying?, etc?

Spurs, being media darlings, also fall into the favoured media camp, hence the buzz about their proposed plans. I think that some of our fans tend to get swept along with this.

Even if we did share a stadium (which seems the only sensible long term view in my eyes), I bet the papers would manage to attribute all the negatives to us, while all the plaudits would go to our good friends in red.

I think DK is dead and we should hold fire for a small number of years before planning anything too ambitious. The whole smell around football and it?s finances smells far too to base anything on at the mo.

Incidentally, Lee, I lived in Darlington and fondly remember going to Feethams every fortnight. I don?t quite remember it being packed every week but I did see them play Everton in the League cup in the early 70s ? crowd of 15,000 as opposed to 2,500 for a normal match. Now that was packed.

Leicester City, Derby, Southampton, Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Manchester City are all within reasonable walking distances of their home city centres, including main line railway stations. Bolton Wanderers is approximately half as far from its urban home centre as DK is for Everton. Would the board of BWFC have been quite so eager to move to Horwich if there were another league club of similar status in Bolton? I wonder which division Everton would be playing in, say, forty or fifty years after a move to Kirkby?

Keith
We will then be playing in Sub-sector B of the Europa Super- League ( North- Peninsular Section )

Re Michael Evans, while I appreciate and understand your turmoil, it is wasted.

Whether we move or not will happen regardless of whatever you decide. If we move I’m sure that you’ll find a way of accepting it.

However, point is, 2 things can happen. 1 We don’t move. 2. We do.

Outcopme 1, nothing an individual can do at the moment.

Outcome 2. Yes there are things you can do. You can push the board for a better stadium, push them for improvements.

Whether it happens or not is out of all our hands.

I’m glad to see that you have considered the matter so deeply, Peter.

If Goodison was filled to the rafters every week and there was a waiting list for executive boxes, then a move to a new ground would make perfect economic sense.

Unfortunately none of the above apply therefore moving is a ridiculous gamble that doesn?t need taking, especially at this point in the economic cycle.

I would really like to know ? BK apart ? who is pushing the agenda? ? because it only seems to be a lose-lose situation for the club and its fans.

Peter Johnson could not have done a better job of taking Everton away from their roots and therefore sacrificing the heritage and tradition of the club. Would so many have stood back and left PJ to it? I very much doubt he would have had as easy a ride as our esteemed owner.

BK is like the losing gambler who keeps making stranger and stranger bets in order to recoup his losses. Bill, please just cancel the whole idea of moving as we won?t catch up with you in charge, even if you managed to build a replica of Wembley in Kirkby for free!

All you have done is to divide the true sponsors of the club and you are in danger of losing more supporters than you gain.

Dick
Remind us Cassandras again...how will EFC moving to Kirkby affect your match-going experience?

Anthony Dyer - Couldn’t agree more mate!

We don't need to consider what has happened to other clubs... we need to consider the move to DK on its own merits and I for one cannot think of any.

1. GP is rarely full despite our consistent performance on the pitch.
2. GP is not about to fall down or be closed down.
3. As well as being further out of the "Capital of Culture" City, Kirkby has no transport or infrastructure to handle 40,000 fans ? let alone 50,000.
4. The opportunity of making money out of "Alternative" events has been reduced by KMBC.
5. The design and standard of stadium are appalling but what do you expect on the cheap?
6. The numbers don't even stack up ? which is probably why EFC won't release them.
7. The interest cost alone will be around £7 to £10 million a year before any extra profit is generated by the "theoretical" extra income.
8. It will require a monumental increase in ticket prices to make money thereby reducing attendances even further than the fans who will not or cannot (due to transport problems) go.

In summary what is the logic of going to a soulless stadium of poor design and quality built on contaminated land about 10 miles out of the City with poor transport and parking facilities and expect your customers to pay significantly more for it so that your mates can enjoy a handsome profit on their dealings??

RIP Bill Kenwright and EFC.

One more time everybody (anybody!): if Kirkby is going to be such an OBVIOUS financial diasaster for Everton as a business (no fans, low take-up of corporate facilities, probable relegation etc. etc.) - how on earth could it possibly make a killing for Bill Kenwright?

Neil Pearse,

Once Everton are in a new ground with corporate facilities etc, the share value of Everton increases by a minimum of 50million.

I think that would do me quite nicely-you?

Just a ponit regarding the "laughing stock" that is Citeh. I watched MOTD the other week and The city Of Manchester Stadium looked awful, half empty and lacking in atmosphere.Then I checked the attendance... 40,137 (home to Villa) in a stadium that holds just under 48000. We didn’t have that many when we beat the RS in the Cup and we only had 32000 against Villa. We haven’t had a full house all season so why do we need a 50000 seat stadium in the back of beyond? (with apologies to all Kirkby fans)

Since the the start of the DK never ending debate which has been going on for what seems years now there has been ample time for "keioc" to put alternative "realistic proposals" forward for consideration and this does not appear to be the case. The last presentation was full of emotion and sentiment , including suggestions to meet with Liverpool city council to look at possible alternatives. I am a yes voter and have been so since day one and to date have seen nothing to change my opinion. The reality is that if the move to Kirby does not go through Dave Moyes will move on and the future of Everton football club will reside in the football league

Daavith - Why will someone pay £50M more for a business with (presumably on your view) more debt, lower attendances, underutilised facilities, an alienated fan base, and the real chance now of relegation? Would you pay £50M more for such a business?

Frank McGregor - as a yes voter have you considered pushing for a better stadium?

No voters are busy trying to stop a move so it’s up to the yes voters to push for more quality. As I’m sure you know quality does not necessarily mean expense, it just requires some thought. There is zero thought in that stadium.

For example, as you believe that this will be the chance to close the gap on Liverpool and Man U, shouldn’t you be fighting for a stadium that has the potential to one day reach their size?

No doubt, you would like a stadium to have atmosphere, so you could fight for removal of the boxes from behind the goals, or the removal of away fans from behind the goals, for example. This is not a trick question by the way.

Do we have to go through all this again Neil?

Actually Neil, the question that was asked but not answered with any degree of clarity at the inquiry concerned the nature of the subsidy? Perhaps,the 50 million pound question should take another form. Cheque/creditcard or cash?

Save your breathe Daavith Neil’s a "financial expert"

Frank

Fair enough, if that's you view, fair play to you, but can I ask if you would purchase a season ticket for Kirkby ?

The reason I ask is that I know for a fact that the few people posting on this thread arguing in favour of DK, The likes of Neil Pearce, Alan Kirwin and Dick Fearon are not match goers, they will argue that they have moved away and can no longer make it... that's reasonable enough, but it disgusts me that they have the temerity to come on here and argue the merits of moving to a stadium they will not be going anywhere near, they?ll still only see the pitch on MotD

The strange thing is, if a match goer says he won't be renewing his season ticket if we go to Kirkby, he is vilified... absolutely fucking priceless.

Everyone will be guaranteed a seat at DK, they can pick and choose matches, which in turn means season tickets sales will plumet ? at least that's what it means to anyone with an ounce of sense.

Although funding a new stadium must have some short term detrimental impact on the ability of a club to buy new players, it’s surely WHERE you build the new stadium that has the longer lasting effect. Building the Stadium of Light must surely ENHANCE Sunderland’s potential for success in the long term and the atmosphere there is generally very good. However, moving Bolton to the Reebok has probably done little for Bolton’s longer term prospects - out of town, soulless area - no real connection with the former club.

Sometimes you do really need to move on to move upwards. Yes, we do need a new ground, no, it shouldn’t be in Kirkby.

As for new stadia and success stories, well I know it’s relative but at this point in time, surely Wigan, despite loads of empty seats, are doing far better at the JJB than they ever would have done at Springfield Park?

As for Tottenham, it’s got to be a good move in the long run, surely - the difference is that their new ground will be developed alongside the old one. And I’m sure that Arsenal’s brief lack of silverware will be rectified in the near future.

Dave and Derek, Thanks for your response, I agree that every effort should be made by the club to listen to the concerns regarding the facilities and transportation issues and address the concerns to the satisfaction of the paying fans. From my experience, most projects of this type change from the concept stage to the finished product to satisfy the majority of the people concerned. I would also be open to realistic sites within the city if one was forthcoming. Life is a compromise and both sides should be open to what is best for the club and not take entrenched positions.

Question for all you anti-Kirkby people... would you like to redevelop Goodison Park now? Answer, I expect is yes. So next question is, where does the money come from to do that? Seriously, give me some cold hard answers to that question?

Do we have someone else other than Tescos willing to spend a bunch of money to help us build a new stadium? No. You see it?s a Catch-22, we need investment and whilst we are still at Goodison nobody in their right mind is going to come in and want to buy us because they know they wouldn?t only have to buy the club and pay for new players to come in and take us to that next level, but oh yeh they would also have to pay for a new stadium! And they aren?t going to do it!

You have to give something to get something, what would you rather have, Tesco buys us a stadium in Kirkby which attracts a big time investor who pumps money in to help us get to that Champions League level on the pitch. Do you think the Abu Dhabi boys would have had an interest in City if they had still been at old Maine Road and we?d have been at a new stadium in Kirkby... chances are they wouldn?t.

I suppose if the Kings Dock stadium had come off you?d have been crying as well... oh what's that, you wouldn?t because it would have been in the "boundaries" of Liverpool! It?s 4 miles away for gods sake, anyone who says they wouldn?t go is a joke... support the team come rain or shine, never mind where they play.

As I say, ideally it would be great to redevelop Goodison, but nothing has ever been viably shown financially to say it could happen, so get over it. Suck it up and move on and let's hope it shows Everton in a new light so we can attract some big time investment.
Oh yeh and Tony Marsh....you?re a idiot, where do you get this Everton will be relegated in 3 years from? It?s miseries like you that are holding this club back.

Alan Kirwin... SPOT ON.

We should do all we can to stay in L4. Unfortunately costs go up - not down - we need action now... in fact we needed it 5 years ago. Not a single viable alternative has been offered by anyone opposed to DK. The LCC what a joke. Ground share will remain my choice for many reasons.

Joe Matchlen
Where is the money coming from for DK? Tesco aint paying a single cent for "our" stadium there. We have to fund it ourselves. Answer your own question, wheres that money coming from??

Are you simple minded? DK represents an increase in the value of EFC to investors via the share price, nothing else. No more fans. More debt. Lower gates. BK is working 24/7 for investors, but to no avail, maybe when he has a gleaming new stadia to show off with a value greater than that which we paid for it (WE have to pay for it - and that extra value comes from the free land given to us by KBC) he might be able to sell up to some cocky americans who aint got a clue, ala Hicks and Gillett. Who are the winners???? FFS.

DK is a dangerous and backward move. It pains me that it is on the table, but that some fans cant see the truth of it is incredulity. Look up the word Propaganda.

Joeynkoo, did you close your eyes and ears when details have come out for DK? Everton?s costs are £10 million for the move, the rest does come from what Tesco pays for the rest of the development! If we didn?t have the confidence to get that money then the club wouldn?t have even pursued this whole thing you dope!

It?s easier to find £10 million than it would be for the estimated £200 plus million to redevelop GP. How they plan to get that £10 million, I don?t know, but neither do you because you and I ain?t privy to those discussions. But if you were talking with your wife about buying a new home that you had seen, would you go thru the whole expense and time of getting surveys done, paying legal fees etc etc if you didn?t have the money for the new house already in place?! No you wouldn?t and neither would Kenwright. He has his faults but being a total and utter cretin isn?t one of them. At the end of the day, I?m sure he has made more money than you ever have and ever will, so he?s not a total cretin!

Also, Everton's share price isn?t going to go thru the roof because of a new stadium, it may increase but not to a point where it would stop a big time investor from taking us seriously with regards to a purchase... which was the whole point of my argument. You want Kenwright out! but in the next breath you don?t want some cocky Americans with money to buy us...THEN WHO WOULD BE GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU, JOEYNKOO...the Queen?

If the Abu Dhabi boys had come knocking, would you have said, "Oh no, not some cocky arabs."?Tell me your plan for getting a new owner and investment, come on, tell us if you have all the answers!

Joe,

I believe that £10 million you have suggested is now up to £78 million as the costs keep rising. So the £10 million may have been achieveable but £78 million???

Also the original post was relating what affect the new stadium would have on the team on the pictch. So as far as I see it the if it was £10 million or £78 million it would be coming from funds used on the squad. I think BK had actually said this would not happen but I cannot see the money coming from elsewhere so at least some will come from the football side and therefore will affect what team goes out on the park each year!!!

And Craig, if you look at my original post, my point was that to get long term improvement on the field would take considerable investment from a new owner, which will only come with a new stadium being the final attractive carrot to serious money men... you may not want to admit it, but it's the truth... otherwise someone would have bought us by now.

We aren?t going to break into the Sky 4 by having the small chest of funds we seem to have every summer... can we put up with another summer of Moyes saying we don?t have any money for more players!?

To get rid of Kenwright and get serious money to affect the team on the pitch at this immediate time means having to move to the only option that is on the table and that's move to Kirkby... sad fact, but the truth. That?s how my post relates to the original post.

I repeat the question that you out-of -continenters won’t answer...
How will EFC moving to Kirkby affect your match-going experience
Joe Matchlen...it’s not the fans who should be providing alternatives and plans b, c, d etc...its the people who allegedly run our club, the passers-through - we, the fans, are not paid to do it - grow up!

Good god, Phil, you stay at GP at all costs brigade need to make your minds up... one breath you say that the board and BK have no idea what they are doing and then in the next you wash your hands of making any suggestions and say it's their job!!! In that case then be quiet and don?t come on this post and let the board get on with going to Kirkby.

If you think that as an organisation they wouldn?t do what is best for the business then you are stupid... why would BK shoot himself in the foot by not taking the best offer that is out there?... oh thats right, there aren?t any and Kirkby is the only one.

As I say, if you have no interest in trying to come up with options cause ?it?s not your job? then toddle off to bed and don?t worry yourself about what's going on in this post mate.

Can any one of the pro DK-ites explain to me and others how the Fuck we will benefit financially?!?

The whole thing is an ill-considered Tesco-led propoganda excercise to benefit everyone but EFC.

WE don't need alternatives: GP as it stands will be more profitable than Kirkby and will give us the time to develop the team and a better proposal than DK.

Argue that one if you can!!

Jay, If you read Joe Matchlen’s response to my post I believe he is suggesting the financial benefit will come from a sugar daddy who will buy us when the stadium is built.

David - the only reason I keep ’raising again’ the question of how Kenwright will make a killing from a business decision which in your opinion is an obvious fianncial disaster is - I have never yet received an answer.

If Kirkby is so bad financially for the club (and for the sake of argument here, I will agree with you all that it is), why would this lead anymore to pay MORE to buy the club? It makes no sense, and I have never received an answer. Would you pay MORE David for an obvious financial train wreck?

The importance of this is that, if you believe we are simply going to Kirkby to line Bill’s pockets, you manage to neatly sidestep all the real issues and the difficult choices that we actually face in the real world. Like: we desperately need to do something to improve our situation; no-one is likely to buy and invest in us if we stay in GP; there are no other new build options in Liverpool that we can actually afford...

Believing that Bill is an evil man and it is all his fault is simply a way of avoiding some painful truths. Kirkby is not at all ideal, but it is on the agenda for us because we need to do something and we cannot afford anything else.

A sentence last week that broke my heart, from a spokeswoman for Hicks and Gillett: "We are fully commited to delivering a world class stadium in the city of Liverpool, not like other clubs who are content to build outside the city on a motorway stop." This brief answer was like a stake through my royal blue heart.

Well, that’s me told, Joe!
The Board have poured scorn on each and every alternative offered by supporters, people who don’t have the funds available to EFC and Tesco. (If you’re a long-term reader of these posts, you will know that; if not, have a shufty through the backlog)

BK and Co have dismissed any suggestions from any person or organisation while hiding behind this ’exclusivity agreement’
I believe this move is ill-conceived and will do lasting damage to the club - you can see already how it’s polarised the fanbase
There have been many posters on this site offering detailed alternatives, particularly regarding step-by-step refurbishment of Goodison
My point is if supporters can do it, why can’t this Board. Simple answer is they don?t want to - they see a short-term fix to plaster over 20+ years of financial mismanagement and are blinkered to all else
This isn?t just about ’business?, football is different, passionate and emotive ? what other organisation has 35,000 customers totally devoted to them?
As for the questions you raise, put them to Bill, not me
Personally, I haven?t got the expertise or cash to do a full project initiation and analysis report. Does that mean I can?t have a say?mate?

This subject is so boring now that I don?t even read the reports in the Echo anymore, it's taken over everything. However, one thing does stand out to me and that is that new grounds & football clubs don?t mix, look at the lists that various people have qouted above.

Just one last thing though, this continued promise of new ground equals vast amounts of other revenue is bollocks, if we all have new stadiums why will people all of a sudden start going to these facilties? We can just about pay our mortgages & pay for season tickets!!

STAY WERE WE ARE! COYB

I think Joe Machlen more than adequtely displays the acumen and naivety of the ’Yes’ crowd..

They’re still reading (and believing) both Philip Green’s and Fat keith’s press releases from 2 years ago...even though they’ve been proven to be a pack of lies.

It’s actually embarrassing that we’ve been through a public enquiry on this issue and none of these people seemed to have bothered digesting any of the material..starting with the DTZ report...

And yet they’ll stilll come on here making themselves look like fools...and be none the wiser.

Pointless.

Joe Machlen thank you for another enlightened post from the pro Kirkby side. Just to put the record straight from us anti?s, who actually care enough to have taken notice of what was said in the enquiry, the figure Everton must raise is £150m. £78m directly by the club. The means of raising this could not be explained at the enquiry. And the remainder by the famous enabling funding which nobody at the enquiry could either explain or understand.

Now back to the original post the sad thing in it all is that Spurs all along have listened to the fans. When originally mooted to move to the fringes of London the board pointed out that taking the club away from its home and fan base would kill the club. Right up to this week when the design had been changed at the request of supporters.

Remember the same team was involved in both Spurs and Kirkby projects. One was described as ?Fit for a club of this stature.? The other as ?Affordable?. If in any doubt which is which Kirkby is being built by the same people as St. Mary?s.

I like the majority of season ticket holders I know will never set foot in the place.

Just like to echo Tom Coleman’s points about Tottenham listening to the fans and changing the design because of them.
This is a sign that a club cares about the fans, will the club listen to us if we ask for changes? No chance, they couldn’t care less, batten down the hatches till its built, ride the tirade of abuse. They couldn’t care less.

We are getting a third rate stadium with no thought into it with a number of errors that the club are aware of. br />
Don’t be fooled by Elstone’s recent PR exercises it’s just an attempt to look like he’s listening, he’s not.

Joe ?

I really shouldn?t let myself take the bait but what the heck. There are some facts known about DK, not a lot ? thanks to the exclusivity deal with Tesco, but what we do know is the following:

First quote for DK ? effectively free
Second quote for DK ? bout £10m squire
Third quote for DK - £78m
Fourth quote for DK - ?????
Tesco will not give us a single penny FACT. They are simply offering us the chance to use their contractors at their preferential rates for us to employ to construct the stadium.
Bellefield cannot be sold to build a new housing estate, which the club was banking on to the tune of around £10m I think.
The stadium is going to be a medium quality build. What?s GP at the moment? Latest news I read is that DK may be reduced to a 40,000 capacity. What?s GP at the moment?

Lick your finger Joe, stick it outside the window and let me know which way the economic breeze is blowing. If you lack completely stimulus response then I?ll tell you. The fact people and businesses have been borrowing money they can?t afford to repay is the major reason we are in this downturn at the moment. The banks are calling in their debts and suddenly folks are saying, erm, I can?t afford to, I thought we could just be in debt forever. One word for you Joe ? SOUTHAMPTON. Is Rupert Lowe a cretin? Did he set out to go into administration or was he trying to get richer but ballsed up?

Yes, BK is a richer more successful man than me ? I think most people contributing to this site are! But does being an Evertonian and ex corrie actor make you a good Chairman? Does being richer than little old me make you a success? Fans in the stands please, business folks running the club.

Everton?s value will rise once we get the keys to DK. This is because we will have an asset which is worth more than that which it cost us to acquire. We are getting a lot of free land from KBC. We are getting better than market rates for construction thanks to Tesco ? and that?s all we can thank them for. BK is under the impression that the asset value and the worth of the business sitting in a brand new stadium will attract a new owner. He also thinks distancing ourselves from the shyte will also help. These facts alone point to him being a numpty. Yes I want BK out, no I don?t want cocky Americans though a Lerner would be ok. Sorry Joe, I love my club and I?m a little bit choosy as to who owns it and how its run. Stupid I know because it really has nothing to do with me, but it?s called an opinion.

Abu Dhabi would be an interesting one, and I?ll be honest I?m not sure how Id feel. We can post stuff about it should it ever happen. As for me having all the answers I aint. I have opinions, and in my opinion, with the facts we have to date, the following 2 immutable truths are clear: 1. DK is a disaster for Everton Football Club and its supporters; 2. BK is a clown.
Ps. £200m to redevelop GP?? Can you post a link to the source you got this figure from please? Thanks.

Quote of the thread......." I?m sure he has made more money than you ever have and ever will, so he?s not a total cretin!"


I would’ve though that the more money someone has...then the more likely they are to be a total cretin. A generalisation of course....but one that stands up to scrutiny - more than most other sweeping statements.

Dave Wilson, Like others of your persuasion, when facts disprove your argument you get all personal. I may not be a current match-goer yet my 25 years on the Goodison terraces plus an undying emotional attachment to Everton gives me every right to voice an opinion on the clubs future. Distance from the city allows reasoned and dispassionate views on the matter.

With my match-going experience limited to trips back home it matters not if it is Goodison or Kirkby. My concern is the club's long-term future. In the beginning, I preferred anywhere bar Kirkby but sadly, not one realistic alternative has been put forward.

Realistic alternatives? I wasn't aware Kirkby was even realistic itself?
When trained architects tell us that building a 50k+ stadium on the loop using inexpensive bridging techniques is written off as simply "not viable". Yet building a smaller stadium for an ever growing cost, outside of the city, and asking 40% of the match-going crowd to a) cycle or b) walk 2 miles to and from the ground is deemed as realistic, I really have to laugh.

Problem is EFC only wants one move and has not bothered with the alternatives. Hence the flippant disregard for anything outside of Kirkby.

Spurs? new stadium looks truly impressive; they?ve even designed it like an old-fashion ground ? as in the seats are closer to the pitch than any other new build stadia around. All to help the atmosphere. Something which has been badly missing from sterile Reebok, JJB, City of Manc, St Marys Stadium, Kirkby Dome designs. Spurs even said that the recession has helped lower construction costs.

They really are on the ball (off the field) at that club.We on the other hand are a fucking joke.

Neil, read Joeynkoo's post for your answer, which many people have given you on this website.

Simple fact ? the majority of Goodison is a dump ? come and sit in the Upper Bullens, or has obstructed views. I have a good seat but then again I have been a season ticket holder for over 30 years in the same spec. Spurs have a multimillionaire backer who though not in the Abramovich league is wealthy ? we have BK... no dosh ? and the rest of the board won't put therer hands in their pocket even though they have dosh!!

I would love to stay at GP but the ground is awful ? it's second division class. Kirkby may not be the best in the world but at least it will offer some improved facilities for the normal fan as well as those for the prawn sarnie brigade.

Alan Kirwin, some good posts! Don’t worry about Dave Wilson, he always twists facts to suit his opinion. He’d argue that black was white, you know what I mean?!

As for all of those who say they won’t go if we move, so what? I’ll be going (Dave Wilson, I go to every home game and most away and cup games, am I okay to comment??) because I won’t cut my my nose off to spite my face. Well in Tony Marsh, you enjoy watching repeats of minder on UK Gold, me and my mates will enjoy going to watch our team, as we’re supporters, support them through thick and thin, etc. But it’s sound as you and the others (every Evertonian apparently lol) are men of principal.

Jay Harris, you bang on about GP. How shit are many of the views?? Maybe that’s why it’s often not full. I had to move seats during the cup games (I have a seat in the LB, good view). Every time I was moved elsewhere, the view was awful, lots of posts in the way - and this was NOT an obstructed view according to the club, fucking hell, I wouldn’t fancy an obstructed view ticket!! I’m okay as I have a decent seat, but I wouldn’t fancy sitting where I was every week.

Neil, they never answer that question when you ask it, so it’s probably not even worth asking.

Re Joe Kawalski, just want to pick up on your last point about the prawn sandwich gang.

Everton are planning to put them behind the goal in the home end with external seating. This is the equivalent to putting them at the back of the Gwladys Street, and giving them the last 2 rows of the Gwladys Street.

Fans such as myself like to stand up and sing but if we do we?ll be in their way. It always unnecessarily splits our home support in 2 behind the goal. This is a a nightmare outcome for those Evertonian singers out there, and could easily lead to more alienation amongst our fan base when we move.

There?s no reason why they can?t scrap the corporates from behind the goal altogether or double the boxes on the sides.

Fans have asked Everton about this, but they couldn?t care less about the atmosphere there. Tottenham changed their design, why wont we?

Well said Joe and Damian, my heart doesn’t want to leave GP but it’s not up to standard for a team of Everton’s standing. I pay full price for a seat in the main stand and can’t even see the Park end penalty spot thanks to a column in the way. Ladies have to queue for ages for sub standard toilet facilities in the most expensive stand for goodness sake. I’ve seen the KEIOC site and their videos on redeveloping GP and admire their dedication and initiative, but just when I’m being seduced by it all the issue of funding comes up and gets completely skated over with nebulous phrases but no real plan or concrete proposals.

Tony Marsh for goodness sake realise the easiest thing in life to be is a "knocker". Crticism is SO easy, it’s having to take resposibility to actually do something that’s difficult. BK may be many things, business genius or moron - it’s up to you and of course he’s going to look after his investment, but one thing you can’t doubt is he has this club’s best interests at heart.

As a postscript I actually have a gut feeling DK may not get through the inquiry. Where we go then I have no clue, but have heard a rumour re a docks site down Bankhall but funding still a major issue even if the site comes free.

He’s been answered many times Damian and there is an explanation on this thread, but he ignors them and never provides facts and figures as to why Kirkby financially is the a good option for Everton FC mind you the club struggle with this too now!!

Damien, you?re right there are some awful seats at GP and the facilities are a bit dated. I had a season ticket for the Park End where the views are no problem but at Xmas I had some friends over and got restricted views in the back corner of the Main Stand. It wasn't ideal but I stll enjoyed the game and had to crank my neck a few times.

However compare that to the potential Kirkby experience. You take twice as long to get there then sit twice the distance from the pitch in a crap design with no atmosphere.

The answer is simple for me. Do away with the restricted views (-4,000 seats) and create another tier at the Park end (+8000 seats).

The cost = about £15 to £20 million to give us a 46,000 (50,000 if you leave the restricted views).

Damian et al,

A lot of the yes people on here seem to take delight that through and through blues wont be going to the Tescodome. I am one, I wont go near it and Everton will lose my custom. It?s as grave and as serious a decision any Evertonian can make, to stop going to support them. Why then are so many fellow blues like yourselves revelling in that fact? Surely you realise not following Everton for an Evertonian is the absolute limit and we would not go to such lengths if our concerns over DK were not of the highest magnitude. There must be something wrong. Yet every concern the anti DK posters raise, is met with usually ?well what plan you got instead then?? DK is a disaster, it has the potential to cripple us but not the potential to turn us into anything more successful than we are now. Even if it is full every week ? which I don?t think it will be ? it wont unable us to compete financially with the Chelski?s, the Arse, Man Shitteh or Man Ure?s of the league.

Neil et al,

Very simplistically, DK will make EFC a more valuable club for the seller, as described above. We borrow £78m to acquire a new stadia purportedly worth £150m. It?s simple math. Assets £150m; Business £40m; liabilites (£100m), balance sheet £90m. BK then tries to find investors based on the club being worth £90m or thereabouts. Problem is, we don?t have £90m sat in the bank, that?s on paper, we would have a bank account at (£100m).

So what if BK cannot find a new mega rich owner that can handle such a liability, who wants to buy a football club, has heard of Knowsley and wants to compete in the vicinity of the shyte, what then? It gets scary. We operate with massive debts that need servicing. That means we need to do 3 things: divert cashflow from other parts of the business; reduce outgoings and generate more income. In real terms that means less money on players in the future, reduce wage bill by selling players and increase prices across the board, from tickets to a pint of Chang. Quality on field goes down, attendance dwindles due to higher costs both getting there and once there, and stay away fans. Less income instead of more. It?s a cycle that once you are in is tough to get out. What else can we do to generate income? Sponsorship possibly? We sell the naming rights to everything, we are now Tesco Everton and soon for a few more quid just Tesco FC. Hey, it?s the only viable thing to do.

At what point are we not Everton anymore? Is it just the name? Is it the motto? Is it our location? Is it us lot the fans? Is it GP? Or is it all of it combined? DK ends with administration, and if a buyer still can?t be found??? Woolworths. Of course, this is just my opinion and may go some way to explain why I am so concerned about the DK proposal.

Call me old-fashioned but I prefer the smell of prawn sandwiches to pot any day and I don’t even like prawns.

Jay, you said you’d get rid of the approx. 4000 seats (obstructed views). That’s bollocks. Officially there might be that many obstructed views, but there are thousands upon thousands more that are officially not an obstructed view (someone said recently it could be 20 000 odd seats) but are a really poor view e.g. the seats in the LB I described before and the seats someone said were in the UB, Main Stand, etc, etc, etc. So you plan doesn’t add up to much at all. Have you got a plan that gets rid of every post? If not, as much as I love the place (I’ve loads of great memories), then I’m not interested. My view is fairly good (though I can’t see near one of the corner flags - see how poor it is, when I consider my seat to be great, yet I still can’t see part of the pitch), but I’m being considerate, I don’t want friends, other Blues who attend to have shit views. Why should people have to crank their necks for £30? If the views were better then more people would probably go, better atmosphere, more money for the club, more enjoyment for the fans.

You also mention that it will take twice as long to get there. It might for you, it could be a shorter journey for others. I’ve moved away from the area now and it takes me 2-3 hours, so I’m not so bothered if there’s a bit extra. No atmosphere? You think there will be no atmosphere, you don’t know that. The same goes for Joe Ludden. You think it will be a disaster, you don’t know that, unless you boys can see into the future? Who knows, maybe you have great foresight?! Joe also mentions that we still won’t be able to be on a par with Man U, etc in a financial sense, no shit sherlock!

As for us ’revelling’ in the fact that some of you won’t go (oh sorry, is it that everyone won’t go - according to some of TW, propeganda!!), we don’t at all. What some of us are bored of is people who keep harping on about how they won’t go. Constantly moaning, all the time. It’s almost as if they think their threats might suddenly make the club change their minds. Also, I find it strange. I support Everton. I might not want to go to Kirkby, but I’ll watch my team wherever they play, that’s what a loyal supporter does. Life brings about change, sometimes we don’t like it, but we can’t fuck off everything we love just because we don’t agree/are pissed off with the change. You make out we’re supposed to really care that you won’t go, but to be honest I’m not arsed, I’m not going to lose sleep over it. It’s your choice, you live with it. Me personally, I’ll be going wherever we play and won’t be spitting my dummy out. If you loved the blues that much...you’d go.

Anyway, let’s hope we stuff the pie eaters. COYB.

Damien
let me tell you.
Ive supported EFC for over 50 years and have stood/sat in every part of the ground.

The only statement thats UTTER BOLLOCKS is that GP has 20000 restricted views or are we counting the person in front of your seat’s head as an obstructive view.

Secondly I HAVE NEVER SAID "I wont be going to Kirkby" if we go there.

I.Because I believe its such a half baked scheme it will never happen and more importantly I bleed blue as much as any other Evertonian except for Bill Kenwright who apparently produces Blue Bullshit aswell.

The reason most of us say it will be souless is because we go to away games and experience the Reeboks of the world which a blind man can see is exactly what is being proposed for Kirkby.

Do any of you pro Kirkby supporters honestly believe that someone is giving us something for nothing. If not then tell me what standard of stadium you are likely to get for 100 million when other prem clubs are spending around 400 million building new stadiums.

Before you even say we cant afford that I would say we cant afford Kirkby but you are pushing for that.

Sorry Joenkyoo, Rich et al - Your answers are financial nonsense, simply because a business is worth what someone will pay for it, not what its accounting assets happen to say. If you were right, then if I donated free helipads to build on the roofs of every McDonalds, they would automatically be worth more. They wouldn’t. Because even though they would now have more assets, their businesses would be no better (wouldn’t sell any more burgers!).

The question remains the same. Bill only makes more money from Kirkby IF SOMEONE IS PREPARED TO PAY HIM MORE. But Kirkby - as you say - is going to destroy Everton as a business - SO WHY ON EARTH WOULD THEY PAY MORE FOR IT??

Or to make it simple: would you Rich or you Joenkyoo pay more for Everton FC because of Kirkby? If so - WHY?? And if not - WHY NOT??

The real problem here is that rather than facing uncomfortable facts about our situation, you have chosen instead simply to villify Kenwright. You are like Daily Mail readers who have decided that it is easier simply to blame Gordon Brown for the world recession. Rather than to actually deal with the real and more complicated issues. Certainly beats thinking I suppose.

Damien wilde and Dick Fearon

Let me say this again, maybe you might then be able to determine the difference between fact and opinion
I said : Derby, Southampton, Reading. Leicester etc . . all went down in the first top flight season in their shiny new stadium
I also said Arsenal have the not replaced the world class stars and havent won a thing since they moved, all of that is irrifutable fact, do you understand that ? NOT OPINION, FACT.
Damien Wilde if your such a pasionate fan, were are you when other topics are disgussed ? are you Ruperts love child ?

Alan Kirwin, made an fool of himself by spending half his day disputing points I had’nt even made, that was funny though - how embarrasing for him - even stranger were his "facts" that you speak about and even praise ?
"Reading unfortunately got relegated because of injuries"
Southampton was run by a "slippery idiot"
Derby got promoted prematurely . . , good post ? these are the ramblings of an idiot

Facts ? you guys wouldnt recognise a fact if it bit you on the arse

I’ll give you a fact : I invited all you yes men to offer up an example where a club has moved moved and its been a success . . . . well ?
Damien Wilde perhaps when you’ve finished trying to work out what "facts were twisted" you’ll be the first . . . I wont hold me breath

Oh Neil... you always bring this arguement back to ordinary businesses and standard business rules for profit-making enterprises.

Step back and look how football clubs operate... THEY DON?T MAKE A PROFIT, in fact, most of them LOSE MONEY!! Their only value IS their asset value. And prestige or something else that makes these crazy loons pay mllions for the privilege of ownership.

Just doesn?t make sense does it?

Unless... unless... unless... the long-term value of the asset appreciates!!! (Known in some circles as... ?investment?) Even better if the short-term value of the asset appreciates ? exactly what the value of EFC Co Ltd assets is set to do if DK gets the green light and the "free" injection of £78M of whatever...

It?s so simple: Bill sells up before that happens, he gets £X per share; Bill sells up after that happens, he gets £Y per share.

You do the maths:

£Y >> £X.

Neil,
Marvellous stuff - It’s got some legs this divison, hasn’t it? I wish I was as certain of anything as you are about everything
Anyway, you’ve really put the cat among the pigeons, last thing on a Friday too!

My company are currently tin discussion with McDonalds to create on their larger buildings, microlight landing sites - flxwing for ’standard’ apex roofs and flexwing for flat
Now, own up...who’s the mole, who tipped you off?

Damian,

Agreed our kid, lets stuff them pie eaters, although I fear a draw (I?m a glass half empty person obviously!!) COYB!!

Yes I will not go to Kirkby, but I will also give up EFC and football altogether if the move goes ahead (apart from playing it). Understand for a second, next year marks 100 years stint between my Grandfather, Father and now me going to Goodison? and I?m a brummie. I live breathe and shamelessly wear Everton every single day, but if DK goes ahead its over. It?s like a death in the family. You have to live on, but it?s over. Just for a second think about why someone like me would say that. What?s so wrong with DK? Why would I end it? I need answers to the fears I have, but no one at Everton are talking. That just makes it worse. If DK is our salvation, why haven?t we got an open forum at the club championing it and allaying our fears? Instead we have exclusivity, £78m price tags, medium quality build, 40,000 capacity? unconnected stands.. rumours and gesticulation? not open and frank discussion. No acceptance of alternatives. DK or bust is the official line. Sorry, but that?s crap.

I think all yes voters have the best interests of EFC at heart, as do all no voters. The fact that yes voters have no regard for why Evertonians, just like you, are prepared to give up the club, something as inherently unnatural as suicide, staggers me. We are not just moaners, never happy. We see DK for the BK lottery that it is. We fear losing GP, a ground so steeped in history it holds more records than most clubs! We fear leaving the city, the impact it will have on the fan base, and moreover, the emotive feeling that we were here first, but we are leaving the city now. It?s an emotion, but that is what EFC is all about.

The facts on the table, in my opinion, point to DK being a disaster. There are no hard facts available that I have found that shows that DK is going to benefit our club. If there are, please let us know what these FACTS are. Not hopeful capacities, hopeful construction costs, but hard evidence. Nothing exists that shows DK is a nailed on guarantee to succeed, but there are a lot of hard facts that suggest it won?t. It?s too big a gamble with the most valuable of things ? Everton FC. Use the data and facts at hand to peer into the future, and it shows DK will, as you admit, not let us compete with Man Ure, but the other side of the coin is it could quite possibly be the end of the show. I can?t watch us die like that, hence I leave before it gets too hard to watch.

Michael - It really doesn’t matter how many times you say it, what a real human being will pay for Everton FC in Kirkby will not be determined by its paper accounting value. No businessman but a cretin would base what he would pay on such a thing.

Again I ask you: Would you Michael Kenrick, if you had the money, pay more for Everton FC because of Kirkby? On your own argument, you have to answer ’Yes’. It’s ’worth more’ now, isn’t it? Now tell me why. You have just acquired a business which, on your own argument, is going to require you to pump more cash into it and get less cash in return than if you had bought it in GP. Are you a masochist or something?

Phil Bellis - Brilliant business idea!! Every McDonalds is now worth more, and someone will pay more for them because they now have more assets. Even if no aircraft ever lands on them (there is a bit of a ’transport problem’, apparently....). Fantastic!

Guys - you really can’t have it both ways. If Kirkby is an obvious financial disaster for Everton FC - it is a financial disaster for its major shareholder, one William Kenwright. It really is, unless we are bought by a moron. If you are right, Bill should sell now - before he destroys the value of the club by moving it to Kirkby.

Neil, Turn the questions around.

Ask yourself why BK is trying to do it? We can all see whats in it for Tesco, but whats in it for Bill?

Ask yourself why he is prepared to cause all this pain and misery amongst Evertonia.

Ask yourself why he is hellbent on a move he knows is splitting the club asunder and will see good lifelong blues like Joey and Marshy disappear.

Ask yourself why he is prepared to put such an enormous financial millstone around whats left of the clubs neck, almost guaranteeing no new stars will be coming. Ask yourself why he is prepared to gamble with the very existance of our club

Then come back and tell us there?s nothing in it for him.

It?s good to see that this subject still ignites Evertonian passions - and so it should.

Neil Pearse. I think I can give you an answer to your question. It basically falls under the word Potential.

Before I explain more fully I would like to say that I have no personal gripe with BK. Generally, his heart is in the right place and he is an Evertonian and relegation etc would not mean nothing to him as Tony Marsh thinks.

However, I believe his heart rules his head too much and that?s why he thinks it will all turn out right in the end.

Basically, I think the line of thought is that by moving to DK the Club will be POTENTIALLY more attractive to a big (probably foreign) investor. That has more to do with this investor seeing Everton as a shiny new plaything rather than a viable business. He / The Board also believe that there is more POTENTIAL for the Club to grow, more POTENTIAL then for the Club to gain a bigger profile and of course it does mean that there is POTENTIALLY a bigger cash-in price for the current owners.

Of course this is their belief based upon what I believe to be a number of huge mis-judgements (primarily the remote location in relation to the City Centre and nothing to do with Councils etc, and the alienation of a large sector of what is a loyal and ageing fan base) and that is their belief.

My post relates to the facts at other Clubs. Spurs are trying to create something wonderful by working in tandem with their community and all the goodwill that will bring whilst Southampton are a great example of what seemed like a good idea draining the financial life out of the Club. Leicester went into Administration too didn?t they and look where they are.

BK sees only the good Potential, but sadly your head must rule your heart here and the numbers do not stack up. The more sane approach is gradual redevelopment, even though we have waited 15 years longer than most, or surely the best one in the long run which is a Ground Share in Stanley Park.

Potential Disaster a la Dave Wilson or Potential Heaven a la Neil Pearse. I?d bet the reality is somewhere in between. In 10 years time we?d be in the Top half of the Premier League with Alan Stubbs as Manager, playing to about 35,000 every week ....in a pretty soulless Kirkby. We can do all that now at Goodison without the risk at all and keeping the traditions alive and when all is said and done Football and clubs like Everton are based on tradtions above all else.

Dave Wilson - Fair enough, good questions.

But the obvious answer is very simple: he genuinely believes that, in our current difficult situation, on balance this is in the best interests of Everton Football Club.

Is it impossible that he genuinely believes this in your view?

Neil,

You are bang on lad, you are right. I wouldn?t pay more for EFC at Kirkby than at GP. Unfortunately that?s because I have some accountancy and business training. Has BK?? He is sitting on a loss as it is, he wants out ? he?s public about it ? but he can?t. He is desperate, and he thinks, because he is a moron, that DK will improve his position to sell. Of course it won?t, it will cripple his position and the club. But BK is financially illiterate, he doesn?t believe this and he thinks it?s his ?out? after 9 years on duty. Make a few quid on top too. No one will buy us when we are out of the city and with £100m debt. Then what? What is Blue Bill?s plan B? Or are you, for the record, saying that BK intends to stay for the long term post DK go ahead??? Does he not intend to sell up after DK?

Your helipad suggestion is flawed ? unless the other post bout the microlights is true. Flawed because helicopters have nothing to do with burgers, hence no addition to the realistic asset value. It?s what?s known in lay terms as a waste of money. Or putting make up on a pig. It?s still a fecking pig. Double the size of the drive thru, that?s an asset, that helps selling burgers. Unless of course you are selling as many burgers as you can already, and no matter how big your extension, there are no more customers coming to pay?.

Karl - I’ve believed a lot of things about moving to Kirkby, but never for sure that it was POTENTIAL HEAVEN. If only! I do think you are right that Kirkby may attract a richer new owner for the club. More than staying in GP will. So somebody else apart from Bill will have to believe that Kirkby is good for the club.

Dave Wilson - Hi mate, came on again just to see how this post had progressed and clearly it has descended into the usual entrenched arguments that usually turn up on the stadium agenda, but I was surprised to see that the debate we were having is still going on.

Like I said to you before, I feel that the root of your argument (which I think is that DK is financial suicide right now) is correct. However, I still feel that your evidence to back it up is flawed. By your reasoning it would not be right for anyone to build a stadium EVER (based on current examples) because they would have to sacrifice transfer money to pay for the stadium. No shit! Surely that’s a tough decision that cannot be put off forever.

So many who post always boil it down to pro and anti Kirkby, but I read some posts and all I see is that the author is questioning the argument or "facts" that others use to back up their argument. That doesn’t mean (as with you and I) that they don’t in essence agree with the main point, just that they don’t feel the content used to reinforce the argument is valid.

Neil Pearse for example may well be pro kirkby (or not?), but I think he is entitled to challenge peoples’ argument (read assumptions) about specific parts of the issue. This is where, for me, these debates break down. If you are not prepared to have your argument challenged (not referring to you Dave as we have had a good debate) then why bother getting involved. I hate nothing more than seeing the words "end of" in a post, as clearly it is not the "end of".

For the record, so nobody is in doubt about my stance on this matter, I feel that Kirkby can be nothing other than a financial albatross for EFC in the current climate, and that’s without even bothering with transport issues, mid-level design or exactly what it will cost.

One of the things that irks me the most is when people use an argument to back up their point of view, but when the same argument rubbishes their alternative they cannot accept it. For example money. It doesn’t matter whether we are talking about Kirkby, redevelopment of Goodison or another site in the city, all of them (IMO) would be a massive risk right now and would OBVIOUSLY affect the club’s ability to compete financially in the transfer market. There will never be a time when it doesn’t affect the club’s financial clout! So when would it be right to think about a stadium? Never?

I believe that whether you think we need a new stadium, or you think we need to develop GP, now is clearly not the time to do it.

Joeynkoo - I think we are now in some measure of agreement. You believe, like I do, that if Kirkby is the financial disaster you think it will be, then Bill is wrong that he will make more money from it. Of course he won’t, he will make less. You disagree with Michael’s incorrect view about asset valuation. Only, as you so rightly put it, the "financially illiterate" would believe that businesses become more valuable when you make them obviously worse. Thank God for that!

I do disagree with you and others that Kirkby is so obviously stupid financially. As even you yourself admit earlier, Tesco gets us cheaper construction than we could get elsewhere, and Knowsley give us free land which no-one else has yet offered us. And it does seem possible as many of you antis actually do seem to believe, that Kirkby will make us more attractive to a richer investor.

Of course, I totally agree with you all that if as a result of moving to Kirkby our attendances collapse - then of course it will be a terrible move. But I guess that is where reasonable people can disagree and opinions can differ.

Neil McK - I agree, we get bogged down with breaking down the arguments that support points, but how else do you attribute the worth of a point other than to discuss what validates that point? There are precious little facts on the table, so we find ourselves arriving at conclusions, not seeing them from the owners of our club.

"So when would it be right to think about a stadium? Never?".

A saying goes: The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago.

By the way, Joeynkoo, your recasting of my McDonalds argument suits it perfectly.

If you double the size of your McDonalds drive thru (and add a new roof etc. etc.), you increase the paper asset value of your McDonalds outlet. Does this, as Michael and others claim, make your outlet automatically worth more? Of course not.

To compare with anti views on Kirkby - if the McDonalds now has less customers, and sells less burgers ratther than more, and also has to service the additional debt payments on the new construction, your business is now WORTH LESS. You have stupidly created a more than worthless asset, and would have been better off leaving the drive thru as it was. Only a fool would now pay more for the business.

And to remove all remaining doubt - the business is STILL worth less, even if Tescos generously paid for half of the costs of constructing the new bigger drive thru. We now have higher interest costs, less customers, and lower revenues, and would have been better off staying just as we were.

You anti Kirkby guys should love this argument! Tescos have generously helped McDonalds to make a very foolish investment. The LAST thing they have done is to make the McDonalds outlet worth more.

Asset valuation is key Neil, Michael is not wrong about it. We will be a more valuable proposal post DK, but we will also carry a huge serviceable debt. BK thinks that DK+EFC= Sell off for more bucks and an escape from where he is ? running a club on fumes.

Unfortunately, DK is a financial disaster, but just like a poker player who is freaking out, BK is ?tilting? right now. He sees DK as his only out, and he is going after it with all his chips (and ours). He is becoming ?pot committed? and that means anything other than DK is just not an option. He firmly believes that moving EFC away from the shyte and into a new stadium means some idiot will suddenly ignore the massive debt and dwindling support. Of course no one will. BK and Everton lose out big time. He just wont accept that right now because the alternative is?. There isn?t one.

Please answer this though, do you believe BK aims to sell the club after we move to Kirkby? Or do you believe he wants to stay? Because if he wants to leave, why??? DK is turning us around, supposedly financially positive, surely he should stay and reap the rewards, as a business man and Evertonian? He doesn?t intend to stay after DK, DK is designed to create an exit via a sell off. Why would anyone sell up just as soon as they made the deal of the century? That doesn?t make financial sense.

Neil ? the McDonalds franchise is worth more, but the business carries a larger liability. The larger drive thru is an attraction to a would-be buyer like KFC or Burger King ? it?s an asset and valued as one, rightly or wrongly, or the books of the business as it is specifically business related and has a viable value to increase sales.

However, like you point out, it's not making anymore profit for the site because you are maxed out on burger sales pre development. Supply and demand. So it is a BAD investment, and the costs have to be covered by the business, who in turn are forced to hand those costs on to the customers.

Fast forward a year or two, throw in a recession, and you have boarded up windows, an empty site and KFC directors congratulating each other on a good decision not to take it over.

Joeynkoo - let’s give up on the asset valuation thing. If you think people pay more for obviously worse busineses...! Would you pay more for the silly McDonalds’ drive thru?? But okay, life is short. (But would you be prepared to buy my house for more than its currently worth if I can get Tescos to pay for half of a new roof which will probably collapse at some point soon and destroy the building? I promise you that when you buy the asset valuation will be higher.)

Onto your more serious point. Of course I don’t know whether BK wants to sell, but I certainly can believe that he will. Obviously he’s found that it’s hard to sell while we are at GP. Any new buyer knows that the first thing he will have to do is invest a lot in upgraded or new facilities.

Why sell with a better business proposition? Simple. He does not have the cash to take the business forward in the current Premiership environment. The business is worth more to someone with more money than it is to him. To continue our analogy - he’s just like someone who’s upgraded his burger shop and then sells it to McDonalds.

Joeynkoo - "the business is worth more but carries a larger liability". Come again?? Liabilities are netted off what anyone will pay for a business, so this makes no sense.

Your KFC / Burger King analogy is also inaccurate. As I have pointed out endless times, our stadium asset in Kirkby would be essentially illiquid. It cannot at all easily be acquired by eg another football club, or knocked down to build houses, or turned into a bowling alley. So EVEN MORE SO the increase in asset value is irrelevant. The value comes from what the asset generates, not from the asset itself (as always actually - that’s what assets are worth).

Neil, Point taken, You're right of course, the decision to move/ redevelop can't be put off forever, but for a club to go ahead and sacrifice funds needed to attract the standard of player that?ll keep them in the top flight, many things have to be in place ? a club needs the know the gamble is minimal.

Yes I played with facts, especially were Arsenal are concerned. When they come through the other side of this, they will be in a very strong position... But did Arsenal really take much of a gamble? They had 30,000 people waiting to buy season tickets, they knew they could fill their stadium. They also had a golden crop of youngsters that they believed would still be good enough to bring CL revenue to the Emirates.
Spurs don't have the same calibre of youngsters but they do have a 25,000 waiting list for season tickets, they also seem to have stacks of money coming from all directions, so theirs will not be a huge gamble.

It's all about timing, Neil, the clubs I listed may come back, who knows, but they chose to invest in new homes at the wrong time. Everton are in very real danger of getting it horribly wrong too.

Trouble is, if we get it wrong, there will be no way back. We don't have a waiting list for season tickets, we don't even have a big enough squad now, let alone one that?ll see us through the difficult period and, worst of all, the club's plans to move outside the city are deeply unpopular.

This isn't a measured gamble, its suicide

Neil, I answered this already: ?But would you be prepared to buy my house for more than its currently worth if I can get Tescos to pay for half of a new roof which will probably collapse at some point soon and destroy the building? I promise you that when you buy the asset valuation will be higher? ? Firstly your house WOULD BE worth more with a new roof and secondly no I wouldn?t. Would anyone?

Unfortunately you paint a good picture of DK. It is precisely that which BK is banking his and our future on. Some numpty buying EFC for a more inflated price post DK than at GP. Of course no one will. The carrot is the inflated value of the business based on the larger asset value to liability. The stick is no one would be able to make a profit from us unless they invested millions upon millions after the initial buyout. Which means we both agree that if DK goes ahead BK is buggered and wont find a buyer. We then can skip back to my previous post regards what happens then?. It ends with the word Woolworths.

Joeynkoo - Something is worth what someone will pay for it. Do you agree with this?

Your view that my house would be ’worth more’ but no one would pay for it is simply a contradiction. Your view quite clearly is that "of course no one will" pay Bill more for Kirkby (unless they are a financial illiterate like you think Bill is). Therefore, Everton with Kirkby is not ’worth more’ than Everton without. "If DK goes ahead BK is buggered and won’t find a buyer". So how can it be ’worth more’?

I certainly paint a better picture of DK than you (although you pointed out the lower construction costs and the free land...). As I have said many times, I think the major problem is transportation. IF, a big if, that can be overcome, then I see no reason why Kirkby will not generate higher revenues than GP and attract a richer owner who will invest more in the club.

Having said all that, I think a ground share is a MUCH better idea.

Neil as its Friday night and a movie and a bottle of white beckons, I will end our little debate by agreeing with you that a groundshare is by far the most economical and sensible solution (other than redeveloping GP!!! hehehe)

I’ll not be at Wigan, but have tickets for Villa away and the semi, so if you see a numpty walking around in this seasons home shirt emblazoned with Joeynkoo and number 77 on the back, tap me shoulder and I’ll let you buy me a pint :)

COYB!

Neil: "Tesco gets us cheaper construction than we could get elsewhere, and Knowsley give us free land which no-one else has yet offered us. And it does seem possible as many of you antis actually do seem to believe, that Kirkby will make us more attractive to a richer investor."

Isn?t that what we've been saying? Does that not mean this deal should be a good thing for BK?s bottom line? BK stands to benefit from DK ? Why do you keep denying it?

Why don?t we take the £78 million we don?t have and stick it on a 50/1 outsider in the National?

Because that?s effectively what Bill?s doing... what?s so hard to understand about the mutual exclusivity of winning and losing?

If we attract an investor we win ? and so does bill. If we don?t, we loose.

That's not the worst idea I?ve read on this thread. It?s certainly better than Billy's plan.

I?ve just had my bet on C Swan's horse Offshore Account.Billy wont get 50s but he will still get 40/1 with some bookies if he hurries and the name will definitely appeal to him.