The Mail Bag
Europa League qualification
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Whilst a place in Europe is now definitely assured, we should be aware that if we lose the Cup Final and drop below 6th in the League, we'll have to play an extra qualifying round.
Initially, I had thought that we would just assume the place of the FA Cup winner and be in the final qualifying round but I have it on good authority that this is not so.
We will probably be motivated to maintain our league position by prize money anyway but it is also important to avoid an early start to what will hopefully be a very demanding season.
Philip Guyers, Posted 26/04/2009 at 18:24:56
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Philip, you are correct. For those who are interested:
a) If we win the FA Cup, finish 5th or 6th we will enter in the 4th qualifying round with the two legs played on Thu 20 Aug and Thu 27 Aug.
b) If we lose the FA Cup and finish 7th or below we will enter in the 3rd qualifying round with the two legs played on Thu 30 Jul and Thu 6 Aug.
It will make a three-week difference and make us play two extra games.
a) If we win the FA Cup, finish 5th or 6th we will enter in the 4th qualifying round with the two legs played on Thu 20 Aug and Thu 27 Aug.
b) If we lose the FA Cup and finish 7th or below we will enter in the 3rd qualifying round with the two legs played on Thu 30 Jul and Thu 6 Aug.
It will make a three-week difference and make us play two extra games.
I agree Philip. But it?s a bit early to worry about this, we have a 6-point lead on Fulham AND a better goal difference. I don?t see Fulham picking up any points at Chelsea next Saturday and that should virtually end their chances of catching up with us. City, Spurs and West Ham are all too far behind, they would need to win all their matches (our goal difference is better than all these clubs') and I just don?t see that happening.
Moreover, we will pick up some points before the season ends. We are in 6th place since what, November? We?ll end 6th for sure. No worries.
Moreover, we will pick up some points before the season ends. We are in 6th place since what, November? We?ll end 6th for sure. No worries.
I am pretty sure David Moyes will be aware of this already.
Hmmmm....The OS says that, no matter what happens now, we will go into ONE two-legged play off match...
Are they wrong?
Are they wrong?
According to Uefa.com:
If we finish 6th we have to play 4 matches to reach the group stages.
Does this mean as runners up in the FA Cup we effectively go through as the winners into a one play off game?
I am assuming that baed on the OS also
? The victorious sides from those 40 ties progress to the third qualifying round, which also includes the domestic cup winners from the associations ranked 16 to 27, the domestic league runners-up from the associations ranked 16 to 18, the third-placed league side from the associations ranked 10 to 15, the fourth-placed side from the associations ranked 7 to 9, the fifth-placed side from the association ranked 4 to 6 and the sixth-placed side from the associations ranked 1 to 3. Again, these two legs are played home and away.
? The winners of these 35 ties are joined in the play-off round by the 15 losing teams from the Uefa Champions League third qualifying round. Also entering the competition at this stage are the domestic cup winners from the associations ranked 1 to 15, the third-placed league sides from the associations ranked 7 to 9, the fourth-placed team from the associations ranked 4 to 6 and the fifth-placed teams from the associations ranked 1 to 3.
? The 37 victorious sides from these two legs qualify for the Uefa Europa League group stage, which also includes the ten losing sides from the Uefa Champions League play-off round and the Uefa Europa League holders.
If we finish 6th we have to play 4 matches to reach the group stages.
Does this mean as runners up in the FA Cup we effectively go through as the winners into a one play off game?
I am assuming that baed on the OS also
? The victorious sides from those 40 ties progress to the third qualifying round, which also includes the domestic cup winners from the associations ranked 16 to 27, the domestic league runners-up from the associations ranked 16 to 18, the third-placed league side from the associations ranked 10 to 15, the fourth-placed side from the associations ranked 7 to 9, the fifth-placed side from the association ranked 4 to 6 and the sixth-placed side from the associations ranked 1 to 3. Again, these two legs are played home and away.
? The winners of these 35 ties are joined in the play-off round by the 15 losing teams from the Uefa Champions League third qualifying round. Also entering the competition at this stage are the domestic cup winners from the associations ranked 1 to 15, the third-placed league sides from the associations ranked 7 to 9, the fourth-placed team from the associations ranked 4 to 6 and the fifth-placed teams from the associations ranked 1 to 3.
? The 37 victorious sides from these two legs qualify for the Uefa Europa League group stage, which also includes the ten losing sides from the Uefa Champions League play-off round and the Uefa Europa League holders.
Dear All - Definitive answer below from the UEFA website:
The victorious sides from those 40 ties progress to the third qualifying round, which also includes the domestic cup winners from the associations ranked 16 to 27, the domestic league runners-up from the associations ranked 16 to 18, the third-placed league side from the associations ranked 10 to 15, the fourth-placed side from the associations ranked 7 to 9, the fifth-placed side from the association ranked 4 to 6 and the sixth-placed side from the associations ranked 1 to 3. Again, these two legs are played home and away.
? The winners of these 35 ties are joined in the play-off round by the 15 losing teams from the UEFA Champions League third qualifying round. Also entering the competition at this stage are the domestic cup winners from the associations ranked 1 to 15, the third-placed league sides from the associations ranked 7 to 9, the fourth-placed team from the associations ranked 4 to 6 and the fifth-placed teams from the associations ranked 1 to 3.
? The 37 victorious sides from these two legs qualify for the UEFA Europa League group stage, which also includes the ten losing sides from the UEFA Champions League play-off round and the UEFA Europa League holders.
? The losing finalist for the domestic cup competition will still be entitled to be entered for the UEFA Europa League should the domestic cup winners qualify for the UEFA Champions League.
Dates:
Third qualifying round, 1st leg 30.07.2009
Third qualifying round, 2nd leg 06.08.2009
Play-off round, 1st leg 20.08.2009
Play-off round, 2nd leg
I read this as two games (i.e. Play Off round only) because we play Chelsea in the final. Is that right???
The victorious sides from those 40 ties progress to the third qualifying round, which also includes the domestic cup winners from the associations ranked 16 to 27, the domestic league runners-up from the associations ranked 16 to 18, the third-placed league side from the associations ranked 10 to 15, the fourth-placed side from the associations ranked 7 to 9, the fifth-placed side from the association ranked 4 to 6 and the sixth-placed side from the associations ranked 1 to 3. Again, these two legs are played home and away.
? The winners of these 35 ties are joined in the play-off round by the 15 losing teams from the UEFA Champions League third qualifying round. Also entering the competition at this stage are the domestic cup winners from the associations ranked 1 to 15, the third-placed league sides from the associations ranked 7 to 9, the fourth-placed team from the associations ranked 4 to 6 and the fifth-placed teams from the associations ranked 1 to 3.
? The 37 victorious sides from these two legs qualify for the UEFA Europa League group stage, which also includes the ten losing sides from the UEFA Champions League play-off round and the UEFA Europa League holders.
? The losing finalist for the domestic cup competition will still be entitled to be entered for the UEFA Europa League should the domestic cup winners qualify for the UEFA Champions League.
Dates:
Third qualifying round, 1st leg 30.07.2009
Third qualifying round, 2nd leg 06.08.2009
Play-off round, 1st leg 20.08.2009
Play-off round, 2nd leg
I read this as two games (i.e. Play Off round only) because we play Chelsea in the final. Is that right???
I checked this on the UEFA site- 5th place in England and Cup Winners (or runners up if Cup winners are in the CL) go to the play-off round (ie, home and away game before group stage) and 6th goes into 3rd qualifying round, then play-off, then group stage. It doesn?t mention anything about ?if the Cup runners up finish below 6th? etc.
The OS refused to confirm we had qualified for Europe until it was mathematically certain Chelsea were in the CL next year through league placing, so to have both official sites stating we are in the play-off round, NOT the 3rd qualifying round, makes me believe this is the case, until this ?good authority? becomes clear.
Jamie
Everything that you say seemed correct to me until I went to the excellent site that details which clubs have qualified for Europe next season:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/qual2009.html
You will see from this that Everton have qualified through the FA Cup but they suggest that we could be in either the 3rd or 4th qualifying round. I e.mailed the site to query this and was informed that, in the event of the Cup winners being in the Champions League, the runners-up are still allowed in but the order of priority with the other two qualifiers is determined by league position.
This did not seem right to me so I e-mailed back to ask what evidence there was to support the above. I was given the following link:-
http://www.uefa.com/multimediafiles/download/regulations/uefa/others/70/22/70/702270_download.pdf
These are more detailed regulations and are for the 2008/09 UEFA Cup as these detailed regulations have not yet been finalised for the Europa League. The relevant section is 1.04 and I think a rule such as this is unlikely to change. This seems a pretty good authority to me.
Everything that you say seemed correct to me until I went to the excellent site that details which clubs have qualified for Europe next season:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/qual2009.html
You will see from this that Everton have qualified through the FA Cup but they suggest that we could be in either the 3rd or 4th qualifying round. I e.mailed the site to query this and was informed that, in the event of the Cup winners being in the Champions League, the runners-up are still allowed in but the order of priority with the other two qualifiers is determined by league position.
This did not seem right to me so I e-mailed back to ask what evidence there was to support the above. I was given the following link:-
http://www.uefa.com/multimediafiles/download/regulations/uefa/others/70/22/70/702270_download.pdf
These are more detailed regulations and are for the 2008/09 UEFA Cup as these detailed regulations have not yet been finalised for the Europa League. The relevant section is 1.04 and I think a rule such as this is unlikely to change. This seems a pretty good authority to me.
Jamie, The first authority is at the following :-
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/qual2009.html
This shows that we have qualified but can start in either the 3rd or 4th qualifying round. I challenged the administrator of the site to provide evidence to support this and he gave me the following link to the detailed competition regulations :-
http://www.uefa.com/multimediafiles/download/regulations/uefa/others/70/22/70/702270_download.pdf
These relate to the 2008/09 UEFA Cup but a rule like this is unlikely to change. It is section 1.04 that is relevant here.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/qual2009.html
This shows that we have qualified but can start in either the 3rd or 4th qualifying round. I challenged the administrator of the site to provide evidence to support this and he gave me the following link to the detailed competition regulations :-
http://www.uefa.com/multimediafiles/download/regulations/uefa/others/70/22/70/702270_download.pdf
These relate to the 2008/09 UEFA Cup but a rule like this is unlikely to change. It is section 1.04 that is relevant here.
Jamie - FA cup runners up get nothing. You have been misinformed. I spoke to the FA last week who confirmed this categorically.
Although the UEFA site mentions this as an entitlement, it is down to the national association and in England the extra UEFA place available (if Chelsea win the cup & qualify for the champions league) will go to 7th place in the EPL and not to the cup runners up.
Basically it is worth finishing 5th because we get more prize money and we start the Europa trail 3 weeks later. I think David Moyes is similarly motivated.
Although the UEFA site mentions this as an entitlement, it is down to the national association and in England the extra UEFA place available (if Chelsea win the cup & qualify for the champions league) will go to 7th place in the EPL and not to the cup runners up.
Basically it is worth finishing 5th because we get more prize money and we start the Europa trail 3 weeks later. I think David Moyes is similarly motivated.
So we?re saying that FA Cup Runners up to CL-qualified winners get the 3rd qualifying round and the play-off round spots would be granted by our lovely and fair-minded FA to 5th and 6th placed teams, assuming we?re not either of those? But that?s just mean...
This is giving me a headache. I say we get it sorted by winning the pot, finishing 5th and let the rest have a bun fight for what?s left. At least me and all the season ticket holders with 408 extra match credits, cousins who impersonated the friend of the vet who treated the communication officer?s dog will be there to see the day at Wembley!
I?ve been looking at the fixtures of the 3-4 teams behind us and it looks highly unlikely that we?ll be caught by any of them. If we pick up 3 points in the remaining 4 games, that should pretty much be it.
COYB! FTRS!
COYB! FTRS!
It is still in our hands so to speak. We play West Ham, Spurs and Fulham in the run in and they are three of the teams just below us. Including Man City they are indeed the 4 teams below us as it stands.
Let's hope Villa can slip and drop some points. They have Hull next so unlikely... they have Newcastle on the final game which could be fruity... Keep the faith! COYB
Let's hope Villa can slip and drop some points. They have Hull next so unlikely... they have Newcastle on the final game which could be fruity... Keep the faith! COYB
We should be going for 5th regardless of Uefa rules etc.
More prize money, the feeling that we have not gone backwards in the League ( although we will almost certainly not reach 65 points like 07-08 ) and forcing Villa into another early start next season will help us keep above them as the season unfolds.
Oh, and it will also shut those mouthy Brummies up too! :)
We need at least 9 points from the last 4 matches and it is possible although none of our games are easy either.
More prize money, the feeling that we have not gone backwards in the League ( although we will almost certainly not reach 65 points like 07-08 ) and forcing Villa into another early start next season will help us keep above them as the season unfolds.
Oh, and it will also shut those mouthy Brummies up too! :)
We need at least 9 points from the last 4 matches and it is possible although none of our games are easy either.
Alan ? Sorry to keep going on about this but it is you who have been misinformed about the FA Cup runners-up.
I spoke to someone at the FA myself today and they confirmed that the runners-up will get the place.
As further support for my argument, how did Millwall in 2004 and West Ham in 2006 get into the Uefa Cup? I can?t see the FA changing their rules since then and further devaluing their own prestige competition.
In the end I agree with Matthew that this will be irrelevant as we are pretty certain to finish at least 6th anyway.
I spoke to someone at the FA myself today and they confirmed that the runners-up will get the place.
As further support for my argument, how did Millwall in 2004 and West Ham in 2006 get into the Uefa Cup? I can?t see the FA changing their rules since then and further devaluing their own prestige competition.
In the end I agree with Matthew that this will be irrelevant as we are pretty certain to finish at least 6th anyway.
Its not that complicated.
A) FA Cup runners up definitely qualify for the Europa League
B) England’s two ’best’ qualifiers go into the 4th qualifying round and thus only play 2 games to get to the group stage.
C) England’s ’third best’ qualifier goes into the 3rd round, and plays an extra tie, starts earlier etc.
D) Winning the FA Cup makes you one of the two ’best’, as does finishing 5th in the league. Only being runner up in the FA cup ranks you below both 5th and 6th in the league, quite rightly in my opinion.
A) FA Cup runners up definitely qualify for the Europa League
B) England’s two ’best’ qualifiers go into the 4th qualifying round and thus only play 2 games to get to the group stage.
C) England’s ’third best’ qualifier goes into the 3rd round, and plays an extra tie, starts earlier etc.
D) Winning the FA Cup makes you one of the two ’best’, as does finishing 5th in the league. Only being runner up in the FA cup ranks you below both 5th and 6th in the league, quite rightly in my opinion.
Finally, a proper answer which makes sense! Thank you Mike Allison.
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1 Posted 27/04/2009 at 09:05:12
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