The Mail Bag
Priorities (next season)
Comments (67)
I've read a number of articles or comments on TW dismissing the merits of the new Europa League, and indeed the Uefa Cup. Some people suggest that it should take bottom priority after the league and 2 domestic cups.
Having also read the negative ramblings of H Redknapp Esq on the same subject, questioning the very worth of a 2nd stream European competition against the FA & Carling Cups, and witnessed Martin O'Neill's (in my view) wasting of an opportunity in this season's Uefa Cup, I think it's worth putting things into proper perspective.
I have no doubt whatsoever that, if we can't make the Champions League, we should try to get in and then to win the Europa League. Here's why:
1. You have to win the FA Cup or the Carling Cup just to qualify for it. Thus to decide that it's more important to win a qualifying competition than the main event flies in the face of logic.
2. It gives the team increasing exposure to the continental game & different tactics. This can only be good for the club's development & preparation for the Champions League.
3. It provides opportunity for squad players and younger players to get more games, and often against challenging opposition. Again, this can only have a positive effect.
4. It brings increased revenue. Whilst it may not be in 8 figures like CL group stage onwards, it is still more revenue from TV & gates.
5. Progression in Europa brings increasing exposure and recognition for the club. This is fundamental if we are to grow. Whilst many will sneer at the Norwegians who come over to Anfield, there are only so many match-going Evertonians in the city.
6. European nights are brilliant. The club brilliantly managed our last campaign,with reduced prices to attract bigger crowds. Playing under the lights is special.
7. Fans, and players, love travelling to new & interesting destinations to follow the team. Last year's campaign was fabulous and everyone was deflated when it ended.
Personally I think the idea of a 2nd domestic cup, in the current packed fixture list, is a nonsense. Bollocks to the Carling Cup.
As far as I am concerned, our priorities next season should be 1 - Premier League; 2 - Europa League; 3 - FA Cup, 4 - Carling Cup. After finishing in the top 4, the next best thing I want to see a year from now is Phil Neville hoisting the Europa Cup at the Hamburg Arena in front of 20,000 Evertonians and then dancing the night away in the beer palaces.
Alan Kirwin, Posted 27/04/2009 at 20:26:02
Comments
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1: "Thus to decide it's more important to win a qualifying competition than the main event flies in the face of logic" ? You win the Premier League and you qualify for the Community Shield... so by your cockeyed logic the Community Shield is a more important trophy than the League? Or the Super Cup more important than the CL? ... Hmmm.
2: "Gives exposure to continental game and tactics" ? I must remember that next time we play some Scandinavian pub team.
3: This is the funniest: "Provides opportunities for squad players and younger players to get more games" ? Great, we?re down to the bare bones - again - let's have even more games!
4: "It brings increased revenue from TV and gates" ? We just about broke even last year, Chanel 5 will get no-one rich - or watched for that matter - and we virtually had to give tickets away to attract a crowd. The FA cup will net the club £5.5 million if we win it.
6: ... Na fuck it, this is the weakest argument yet for playing in this Micky Mouse of a competition.
2: "Gives exposure to continental game and tactics" ? I must remember that next time we play some Scandinavian pub team.
3: This is the funniest: "Provides opportunities for squad players and younger players to get more games" ? Great, we?re down to the bare bones - again - let's have even more games!
4: "It brings increased revenue from TV and gates" ? We just about broke even last year, Chanel 5 will get no-one rich - or watched for that matter - and we virtually had to give tickets away to attract a crowd. The FA cup will net the club £5.5 million if we win it.
6: ... Na fuck it, this is the weakest argument yet for playing in this Micky Mouse of a competition.
You, Mr Kirwin, may want to see 20,000 Evetrtonians dancing the night away in Hamburg, yes that would be nice... but the rest of us have a much bigger fish to fry. I want to see a million people give our boys the sort of tumultuous reception they deserve when they return to the city in triumph with a proper cup in a few weeks time.
Dave Wilson, are you saying that the Cup Winners Cup was not a ?proper cup? in 1985?
We should remember that teams that win trophies are the ones that are recorded ? not those who finish 2nd, 3rd or 4th, regardless of how difficult the Premier League is.
We should remember that teams that win trophies are the ones that are recorded ? not those who finish 2nd, 3rd or 4th, regardless of how difficult the Premier League is.
Dave Wilson -
1. Comparing the charity shield to a European competition is just daft, behave.
2. Or when we play Zenit, Fiorentina or AZ?
3. The more games thing is the only negative, but if we want to be up there with the best, we need to handle it, so let?s start handling it now.
4. There is, apparently, more prize money in the Europa league next season.
6. We all want the FA Cup but if it is followed by a Europa Cup next season, all the better.
So we?d gain nothing from the opportunity to play sides like Deportivo, Benfica, Sampdoria, Galatasaray, PSG, Shalke, Feyenoord, Valencia, Ajax or Milan?
If it?s so far beneath us to play, say, a top-4 Belgian side, how come we didn?t walk those games?
European exposure can only be a good thing for Everton and it?s up to Moyes to build a squad capable of playing these games. Money or not, that?s his job.
1. Comparing the charity shield to a European competition is just daft, behave.
2. Or when we play Zenit, Fiorentina or AZ?
3. The more games thing is the only negative, but if we want to be up there with the best, we need to handle it, so let?s start handling it now.
4. There is, apparently, more prize money in the Europa league next season.
6. We all want the FA Cup but if it is followed by a Europa Cup next season, all the better.
So we?d gain nothing from the opportunity to play sides like Deportivo, Benfica, Sampdoria, Galatasaray, PSG, Shalke, Feyenoord, Valencia, Ajax or Milan?
If it?s so far beneath us to play, say, a top-4 Belgian side, how come we didn?t walk those games?
European exposure can only be a good thing for Everton and it?s up to Moyes to build a squad capable of playing these games. Money or not, that?s his job.
It comes down to two camps I feel. The pro-Europa Cup camp feel it is in itself important enough to win that and therefor should be prioritised. The second camp against the Europa Cup feel it is not prestigious enough to concentrate your efforts on when your paper thin squad needs all the help it can get to challenge the top four.
I?m in the second camp. If you?re Man City and you?ve got no chance of CL football, fair enough, go for it. But I don?t want to see this competition getting in our way in the pursuit for 4th and that is where we need to be looking now.
Uefa Cup is important, very much so.
Why, for one I am not gonna buy all this bullshit that only Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal are important. Sky and Co will try and demean football, and have been doing so for years, with the idea that finishing 4th and winning prize money is more important than silverware. The media say it's bullshit so I ain't gonna believe them, they have an agenda.
2nd, it will give vital experience to our team. While Cahill, Lescott, Jags, Arteta and Co are good players, having to adapt to a Euro style match will make them better players. If we go to CL now, a good chance we will be humiliated and end up in the Uefa cup anyway.
3rd, Exposure, people in Europe do pay attention to the cup, while it is very big in growing footballing nations in old Soviet states. There is a world outside England, one much more appreciative of real football.
4th, players want to play in it. While it may not bring riches, players want to feel like a success, so being in and winning a Euro cup gives them that;
5th, improves our chances of signing better Europeqn players.
6th, I want to watch Everton as much as possible, the joy of watching Euro football, Everton winning is something I want to enjoy.
7th, Whoever remembers who finished 4th?
8th, Apparently the FA Cup is mickey mouse also, FUCK THAT!
Why, for one I am not gonna buy all this bullshit that only Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal are important. Sky and Co will try and demean football, and have been doing so for years, with the idea that finishing 4th and winning prize money is more important than silverware. The media say it's bullshit so I ain't gonna believe them, they have an agenda.
2nd, it will give vital experience to our team. While Cahill, Lescott, Jags, Arteta and Co are good players, having to adapt to a Euro style match will make them better players. If we go to CL now, a good chance we will be humiliated and end up in the Uefa cup anyway.
3rd, Exposure, people in Europe do pay attention to the cup, while it is very big in growing footballing nations in old Soviet states. There is a world outside England, one much more appreciative of real football.
4th, players want to play in it. While it may not bring riches, players want to feel like a success, so being in and winning a Euro cup gives them that;
5th, improves our chances of signing better Europeqn players.
6th, I want to watch Everton as much as possible, the joy of watching Euro football, Everton winning is something I want to enjoy.
7th, Whoever remembers who finished 4th?
8th, Apparently the FA Cup is mickey mouse also, FUCK THAT!
Anyone who thinks the Europa League is not worth entering is an idiot. The whole point of football is to try and win things whatever the competition.
Dave Wilson,
I bet that if we had failed to qualify for the Europa League this year you would have been one of those ?impossible to please? fans on here slagging off Moyes for failing to get into the competition.
Getting into the Europa League has to be our realistic target each year - that we continue to compete against 4 of the best teams in Europe should be applauded but to EXPECT us to finish in the top 4 is un-realistic.
A lot of what Alan says is right, partucularly the points about getting acustomed to european football and raising our profile.
Finally, ask the likes of Arteta, Lescott, Jagielka whether they believe qualification to the Europa League to be important and that should give you one of the main reasons we need to qualify...
I bet that if we had failed to qualify for the Europa League this year you would have been one of those ?impossible to please? fans on here slagging off Moyes for failing to get into the competition.
Getting into the Europa League has to be our realistic target each year - that we continue to compete against 4 of the best teams in Europe should be applauded but to EXPECT us to finish in the top 4 is un-realistic.
A lot of what Alan says is right, partucularly the points about getting acustomed to european football and raising our profile.
Finally, ask the likes of Arteta, Lescott, Jagielka whether they believe qualification to the Europa League to be important and that should give you one of the main reasons we need to qualify...
Fran, I?d like the memory of playing CL football... and it won?t be until we break the top four that we can challenge for the title. The Europa Cup is a second rate cup for second rate teams. We don?t need the profile of the club being raised through this cup as being in the Premier League does that more than enough.
If you want an agenda, then it would be the recent expansion of this tornument that means more and more games are played by these lower placed teams which numbs their attack on CL qualification thus allowing an improved chance of status quo for the top teams in Europe... or am I being silly?
Dave Wilson - you have a seemingly bottomless supply of semi-contentious vaccuous drivel. Why do you bother to pollute TW threads with it?
Only a half-wit would mention the Community Shield in the way you do. It is merely a season-opening game where the entire proceeds go to charity. Only an idiot would view the Community Shield as a competition that one seeks to qualify for. It is a consequence, not an ambition.
For most I’d say pull your head out of your arse and see what’s happening. For all our benefit, yours is best left where it is.
Please give my regards to the 1950’s.
Only a half-wit would mention the Community Shield in the way you do. It is merely a season-opening game where the entire proceeds go to charity. Only an idiot would view the Community Shield as a competition that one seeks to qualify for. It is a consequence, not an ambition.
For most I’d say pull your head out of your arse and see what’s happening. For all our benefit, yours is best left where it is.
Please give my regards to the 1950’s.
Nick, Zenit had their profile raised!!!
It?s actually second tier teams not second rate, and by your statement Everton are second rate. I wonder, do you look at the Champions League and wish you supported one of those teams?
As for your agenda theory yes you're being silly AGAIN.
I couldn’t agree more.
I think winning any European trophy is surely a plus for us and to try and attract players and get us on to that next champions league level.
Whats the point in us winning the FA Cup if we dont want to win the competition it gets us in to??
I think winning any European trophy is surely a plus for us and to try and attract players and get us on to that next champions league level.
Whats the point in us winning the FA Cup if we dont want to win the competition it gets us in to??
What’s better: winning the Europa League or getting knocked out in the group stages of the Champions League?
I know what I’d prefer: the trophy!
I know what I’d prefer: the trophy!
The only problem with having your profile raised like Zenit, is that you lose your top players to bigger clubs.
Let?s keep this simple - those who slag off the Europa/Uefa Cup then don?t go to these matches!
I?m 26 years old. I was at Wembley in 95 when we won the FA Cup but since then we?ve done nothing. Why do people think we?re better than the Europa Cup?
I want to see Everton win trophies. That?s what people remember, not who finishes 4th in the league. Simple.
Regardless of what anyone thinks the status of the cup is would all Evertonians not want to see Everton playing in Europe on a Thursday night live on channel 5 or even go to it?
Don't give me anymore rubbish about its status! Anyone who would rather not be in it must be off your fecking rocker.... I love the opportunity to watch any Everton European football and am proud to be playing in it! It beats the bad old days of struggling to stay up on the last day of the season and for my money beats being mid table with nothing extra to play for!
Anyone saying they would rather not be in it must crave the satisfaction it gives them of being rubbish and having something to moan about each week! I for one enjoy bigging my team up and would much prefer or 6th place status and Europe football.....
GET A GRIP LADS.
Don't give me anymore rubbish about its status! Anyone who would rather not be in it must be off your fecking rocker.... I love the opportunity to watch any Everton European football and am proud to be playing in it! It beats the bad old days of struggling to stay up on the last day of the season and for my money beats being mid table with nothing extra to play for!
Anyone saying they would rather not be in it must crave the satisfaction it gives them of being rubbish and having something to moan about each week! I for one enjoy bigging my team up and would much prefer or 6th place status and Europe football.....
GET A GRIP LADS.
To suggest that we stifle our effort in any game is an abomination.
What a load of crap.
What a load of crap.
Yeeeup, all those world class players clammering to play for Zenit... If we had a squad big enough for the task go for it, but our players are knackered and they weren’t in it for long this year...
And yes, we are second rate. If we’re unable to win the league then that’s what we are...
And yes, we are second rate. If we’re unable to win the league then that’s what we are...
Richard Parker ? Alan Kirwin has an unfortunate habit of making a fool of himself by raging about something he THINKS he?s read (oops he?s done it again) don't fall into the same trap mate. Read what I said, at no time did I suggest the Community Shield could be compared to a European trophy, I merely exposed the stupidity of Kirwin's logic by applying it elswhere, let me expose the stupidity of that logic again. Man United are "world champions" they qualified for the tournament by winning the CL, by applying this cockeyed logic, the CL would be the lesser of the two trophies. I can give a million more examples from other sports, but you?ll already be aware of them.
David Ush ?No mate I?m not saying that at all, but these days the Wafer cup is so obviously second best and progress in the lesser competition almost certainly puts paid to qualification for the big one.
Mike Jovic ? Go ahead and make that bet, you?ll lose
Alan Kirwin ? LOL Perhaps you might want to adress the points I made, rather than the ones you think I made.
David Ush ?No mate I?m not saying that at all, but these days the Wafer cup is so obviously second best and progress in the lesser competition almost certainly puts paid to qualification for the big one.
Mike Jovic ? Go ahead and make that bet, you?ll lose
Alan Kirwin ? LOL Perhaps you might want to adress the points I made, rather than the ones you think I made.
Dave Wilson,
You say you would not be one of the fans on here slagging Moyes off for not qualifying for as you put it the ?second rate? competition.
If that is the case what are you going on about ? a totally irelevant thread. Why can't people like you be grateful for the fact that we are improvig rapidly, qualifying for Europe almost every year and now improving our cup form?
Maybe a return to the dark days of relegation battles and such like would please you ? it would at least give you something worthwhile to moan about as opposed to this nonsense!
You say you would not be one of the fans on here slagging Moyes off for not qualifying for as you put it the ?second rate? competition.
If that is the case what are you going on about ? a totally irelevant thread. Why can't people like you be grateful for the fact that we are improvig rapidly, qualifying for Europe almost every year and now improving our cup form?
Maybe a return to the dark days of relegation battles and such like would please you ? it would at least give you something worthwhile to moan about as opposed to this nonsense!
Dave Wilson, you are full of crap. Thank God Moyesy doesn?t share your logic. What is the point battling all season to finish in a European place, or winning the FA Cup for that matter, to then not take advantage of the European Cup competition that qualifies us for?
I for one will treasure my memories from Nuremberg and hope we get many more trips like that next season. More importantly, I bet the players feel the same...
Mike Jovic ? You see thats were the likes of you and me differ, we?ve already qualified for the Uefa Cup for the past few seasons ? I want our progress to continue, and I think we have the team to do it. You seem happy to languish in the second rate tournament, regardless of the fact that it hinders our chances of CL qualification. Fair enough, but some of us are more ambitious.
Danny Broderick ? I?m really pleased you treasure your memories in Nuremberg... I do too, but you won't mind if some of us more ambitious types fancy Madrid, Barcelona or Milan?
Danny Broderick ? I?m really pleased you treasure your memories in Nuremberg... I do too, but you won't mind if some of us more ambitious types fancy Madrid, Barcelona or Milan?
Dave Wilson, You have to do well in the Uefa cup to have a chance in the Champions League. If we would have been regulars in European competions like the Uefa Cup, I don't think Villarreal would have got the better of us in the Qualifying round of the CL.
Just look at the winners of the Uefa Cup in the past 12 years: Bayern, Inter, Zenit, Porto, Valencia, CSKA, Sevilla and the REDSHITE to name a few and they have all gone on to be quite consistent in the CL if not win it. It's a progression that we need to have to start to contend with the Sky four on performance and raising the profile of our club. If we would have been European regulars, even in the Uefa Cup, we may well have Arshavin scampering around Goodison.
I have a feeling of deja-vu! Didn?t we have this same discussion the other week?
There?s one thing I don?t get though....
If Dave Wilson is right that we have the team to get into the Champions League but that participating in the Uefa/Europa Cup could scupper that, then why didn?t we qualify for the Champions League this season? We weren?t in the Uefa long enough for it to scupper anything!
Somebody above mentioned an anti-Europa Cup Camp. If that really exists then why don?t the both of them, Nick and Dave, just decide not to attend any Europa games and leave the 45,000 of us in the pro camp to it?
Sorted!
There?s one thing I don?t get though....
If Dave Wilson is right that we have the team to get into the Champions League but that participating in the Uefa/Europa Cup could scupper that, then why didn?t we qualify for the Champions League this season? We weren?t in the Uefa long enough for it to scupper anything!
Somebody above mentioned an anti-Europa Cup Camp. If that really exists then why don?t the both of them, Nick and Dave, just decide not to attend any Europa games and leave the 45,000 of us in the pro camp to it?
Sorted!
Dave Roberts ? We didn't qualify fior the CL because we had a nightmare start to the season, not helped by the fact that... well, we didn't qualify for the CL.
And we didn't qualify last year because, although at one stage we were clear of the shite we ran out of players... because this Mickey Mouse Cup drained us, still, at least we broke even, that should please you
As for the 45,000 in the pro camp... I?ll stick to the facts mate, feel free to keep dragging figures out of the fucken air.
Andrew ? I think you?ll find you need to be in the CL to see Arshavin in Europe these days.
And we didn't qualify last year because, although at one stage we were clear of the shite we ran out of players... because this Mickey Mouse Cup drained us, still, at least we broke even, that should please you
As for the 45,000 in the pro camp... I?ll stick to the facts mate, feel free to keep dragging figures out of the fucken air.
Andrew ? I think you?ll find you need to be in the CL to see Arshavin in Europe these days.
Dave Wilson
So, we didn’t qualify for the Champions League because we had a nightmare start to the season..... because we didn’t qualify for the Champions League!
Well I never!
So it’s not only the Uefa Cup that prevents us qualifying for the Champions League...... not qualifying for the Champions League prevented us qualifying for the Champions League too!
And as for the nightmare start, here was I thinking it had everything to do with Moyes undermining confidence by not signing his contract and having to play a load of kids.
Just shows how wrong we can be eh?
So, we didn’t qualify for the Champions League because we had a nightmare start to the season..... because we didn’t qualify for the Champions League!
Well I never!
So it’s not only the Uefa Cup that prevents us qualifying for the Champions League...... not qualifying for the Champions League prevented us qualifying for the Champions League too!
And as for the nightmare start, here was I thinking it had everything to do with Moyes undermining confidence by not signing his contract and having to play a load of kids.
Just shows how wrong we can be eh?
Dave Wilson
Just so that you do not misunderstand me.
There is one thing I agree with you about. This team IS on the verge of being eminently capable of regular qualification for the CL. In my view we need a little bit of additional quality in two positions (maybe three) and a bigger squad. This is what the ’big four’ have over us now, a little bit of additional quality and bigger squads.
Accordingly, we won’t get where we want to be by ditching competitions (that we could win) but by getting that little bit of quality and a little bit of investment and a bigger squad by raising the profile of the club and giving the players a bit of European experience....... not to mention providing the supporters (or most of them) with a good measure of enjoyment along the way. That is what the game is all about.
After all, why is it that the same clubs qualify for the CL year after year? They may have to adjust their priorities here and there like Manure did in the FA Cup, but they don’t ditch competitions. Man Utd wanted to win last week and they believed they could. The ’big four’ qualify every year because they do have that lit bit extra. That is what we should strive for THAT and not take the O’Neill/Redknapp route and end up with nowt! That is the road to nowhere.
Just so that you do not misunderstand me.
There is one thing I agree with you about. This team IS on the verge of being eminently capable of regular qualification for the CL. In my view we need a little bit of additional quality in two positions (maybe three) and a bigger squad. This is what the ’big four’ have over us now, a little bit of additional quality and bigger squads.
Accordingly, we won’t get where we want to be by ditching competitions (that we could win) but by getting that little bit of quality and a little bit of investment and a bigger squad by raising the profile of the club and giving the players a bit of European experience....... not to mention providing the supporters (or most of them) with a good measure of enjoyment along the way. That is what the game is all about.
After all, why is it that the same clubs qualify for the CL year after year? They may have to adjust their priorities here and there like Manure did in the FA Cup, but they don’t ditch competitions. Man Utd wanted to win last week and they believed they could. The ’big four’ qualify every year because they do have that lit bit extra. That is what we should strive for THAT and not take the O’Neill/Redknapp route and end up with nowt! That is the road to nowhere.
Dave Roberts ? It's very simple really but you very obviously need it explaing to you.
Ready? Davey Moyes would have signed his contract in a heartbeat if we?d have qualified for CL. We didn't because we ran out of players. We ran out of players because we?d exhausted the squad playing in a second rate tournament, broadcasted by a second rate TV company, involving second rate teams. Can you understand that? do you think you might ever be able to get your head around these facts? ... No? OK ? I?m out.
Ready? Davey Moyes would have signed his contract in a heartbeat if we?d have qualified for CL. We didn't because we ran out of players. We ran out of players because we?d exhausted the squad playing in a second rate tournament, broadcasted by a second rate TV company, involving second rate teams. Can you understand that? do you think you might ever be able to get your head around these facts? ... No? OK ? I?m out.
we have to take all competionns serouisly but i believe we will need six new players at least to compete rember we are more than likely to lose avm, possiably castillo,jacobsen,and maybe nuno. in my eyes we need two 10 mill players =(mouthino downing) plus another winger ,right back (micah richards)and a striker (vagner love) would love to sign those players but i know we wont
All well and good Alan but where are all the extra players going to come from that we will need to compete not only on the domestic front but also a European campaign.We are have a small squad now and need at least 4 players just to tread water next season.An extended Europa run will see us needing another 4.So gtell me how will we do it?
The reason the Uefa,Europa is derided ans shunned by players manger and fans alike is because it a shambolic poorly thought out competition which offers virtually no financial incentive.Add to that all the CL cast offs popping in for the knolckout stages and the whole thing becomes a farce.
Clubs around Europe who qualify for the Europa should boycott it untill the revenue being made is increased other wise it aint worth the hassle.
The reason the Uefa,Europa is derided ans shunned by players manger and fans alike is because it a shambolic poorly thought out competition which offers virtually no financial incentive.Add to that all the CL cast offs popping in for the knolckout stages and the whole thing becomes a farce.
Clubs around Europe who qualify for the Europa should boycott it untill the revenue being made is increased other wise it aint worth the hassle.
Agreed with just about every word of the original post (I still think you?re wrong about the FA Cup runners-up but that?s on the other thread).
Of course we all want to be in the Champions League but the Europa League is where we are now. Giving up on ?lesser? competitions to concentrate on getting into the Champions League is a nice theory but doesn?t necessarily work in practice. Just ask Aston Villa!
Of course we all want to be in the Champions League but the Europa League is where we are now. Giving up on ?lesser? competitions to concentrate on getting into the Champions League is a nice theory but doesn?t necessarily work in practice. Just ask Aston Villa!
To win the Europa Cup next season you have to play 19 games ! That?s half a season extra, we wouldn?t be in the FA Cup final this year had we got past Liege in the qualifying rounds this season.
I just wish they would change the format. They have updated it this coming season to be more like the CL. That?s fine when you have the resources of a Sky 4 club, so it makes it a bit of a "Catch 22" situation for me. The downside is all those extra games, and god knows where we would be in the league with more first team injuries.
On the flipside, we need to raise our co-efficient to save being drawn against another Villarreal if we do qualify for the CL.
Many players quote European football as a reason for joining clubs. The main reason for me though would be experience in Europe and exposure. Our fan base is dwindling, and FA Cup finals etc. will only bring us more fans in the long run, as well as European success.
I just wish they would change the format. They have updated it this coming season to be more like the CL. That?s fine when you have the resources of a Sky 4 club, so it makes it a bit of a "Catch 22" situation for me. The downside is all those extra games, and god knows where we would be in the league with more first team injuries.
On the flipside, we need to raise our co-efficient to save being drawn against another Villarreal if we do qualify for the CL.
Many players quote European football as a reason for joining clubs. The main reason for me though would be experience in Europe and exposure. Our fan base is dwindling, and FA Cup finals etc. will only bring us more fans in the long run, as well as European success.
Two reasons why I am in favour of this cup.
Firstly, our embarrassing performance in 2005, after we finished fourth, shows that we weren’t ready for the step up to European competition. Playing in the UEFA cup / Europa league will give us that leg up so that if / when we do finish fourth again we will be much better prepared to progress this time.
Secondly, its bloody good fun! Anyone who went to Nuremberg last year will tell you what a great crack it is to support Everton away in Europe. Its great for the fans and God knows we deserve it.
Firstly, our embarrassing performance in 2005, after we finished fourth, shows that we weren’t ready for the step up to European competition. Playing in the UEFA cup / Europa league will give us that leg up so that if / when we do finish fourth again we will be much better prepared to progress this time.
Secondly, its bloody good fun! Anyone who went to Nuremberg last year will tell you what a great crack it is to support Everton away in Europe. Its great for the fans and God knows we deserve it.
If Everton qualify for, or enter any competition then the aim must be to win it. Anything less is a victory for mediocrity and a lowering of standards which then pervades the entire club, "Nil Satis Sour Grapes". If Everton ever get into the position of winning, in one season, every competition they enter then I would be extremely disappointed if we didn’t try to win them all, despite the attitudes of other "giant/worlds richest" clubs to not only to those running these competitions but also to their fans.
Dave Wilson
You’re starting to make it up as you go along now so stop, you are beginning to look and read as paranoid. I also have my theory as to why Moyes prevaricated about the contract and it had nothing to do with not qualifying for the Champions League. But it’s only a theory. Did he personally tell you his reasons? If not what you say is meaningless twaddle. We haven’t qualified this year have we but he is staying isn’t he?
When I need you to ’explain’ something to me I will let you know. Otherwise I will stick to my own judgement which makes more sense.
Nice to see the anti group has another member! Tony Marsh!! Well....doesn’t that say it all.
You’re starting to make it up as you go along now so stop, you are beginning to look and read as paranoid. I also have my theory as to why Moyes prevaricated about the contract and it had nothing to do with not qualifying for the Champions League. But it’s only a theory. Did he personally tell you his reasons? If not what you say is meaningless twaddle. We haven’t qualified this year have we but he is staying isn’t he?
When I need you to ’explain’ something to me I will let you know. Otherwise I will stick to my own judgement which makes more sense.
Nice to see the anti group has another member! Tony Marsh!! Well....doesn’t that say it all.
From what I observed, those anti-Europa or UEFA cup teams did not gave up their places when they qualified.
Dave Roberts ? I love it when the insults come, shows the paucity of your argument. No Moyes did not tell me personally he would have signed if we were in the CL, but then again Robinho didn't tell me he only joined City for the money, like the rest of the grown up world I kinda knew though. If stating the blindingly obvious makes me Paranoid, ignoring it certainly makes you a naive fool
ps: Nice cheap shot at Marshy, class, pure class.
ps: Nice cheap shot at Marshy, class, pure class.
Treating the uefa cup with indifference certainly helped Villa in their march towards the top four.
I can honestly see both sides to this but surely attempting to win a trophy takes priority over finishing 4th in the league. I personally would take a europa cup and 5th next season over a qualifying place in the champions league but I do understand the argument the other way.
Sadly, I am old enough to remember the days when Everton were capable of not only winning cups but also the 1st division title as it was then.
While I appreciate the youngsters on Toffeeweb might be happy winning any sort of trophy, I want to see Everton win the Premiership, qualify for Champions League & go on to win it.
Sounds preposterous to some I know, but if you aim low, you cannot achieve greatness.
Please feel free to say I live in the past but I will only be happy when Everton are world-beaters once again.
While I appreciate the youngsters on Toffeeweb might be happy winning any sort of trophy, I want to see Everton win the Premiership, qualify for Champions League & go on to win it.
Sounds preposterous to some I know, but if you aim low, you cannot achieve greatness.
Please feel free to say I live in the past but I will only be happy when Everton are world-beaters once again.
The Europa cup is a total farce with a flawed format that awards hardly any income. We will still have a small squad next season and, in my opinion, any half decent cup run in this competition will basically mean us surrendering any fight for the top four. It will, at the very least, jeopardise our chances. I agree it’s a ridiculous state of affairs, and how absurd have things become that we now aim to finish fourth in our league but football is all about money now. Until this mickey mouse cup offers some serious cash or loses the amount of games played then I suggest we boycott it to raise awareness of just how dumb a competition it is.
Just my opinion like.
Just my opinion like.
If Everton are to progress we have to take any European football on offer... personally I would use the Carling cup as an opportunity to play the kids (we have some damn good ones so lets use the Carling cup in the same way as Arsenal).
FA cup is a bit more tricky especially as holders you’d want to put in a good shift defending the cup. But I would still put the Europa league above that with the league, and CL qualification, above that.
I say that fully acknowledging the flaws of the Europa cup, primarily the continued ’dropping down’ of the failed CL teams into the last 32. That really has to stop.
FA cup is a bit more tricky especially as holders you’d want to put in a good shift defending the cup. But I would still put the Europa league above that with the league, and CL qualification, above that.
I say that fully acknowledging the flaws of the Europa cup, primarily the continued ’dropping down’ of the failed CL teams into the last 32. That really has to stop.
ok well really if people think that the Uefa cup is stupid then why are you supporting everton? this is great for us starting off small and eventually we will get bigger and bigger. so c’mon you blues!
Dave Wilson, this is ridiculous... would you rather us not being in the Europa league at all? At least Tony Marsh thinks his points through, and I respect his opinions, NOT YOURS!!
Tony Marsh: I see your point with the league.. it is very poorly thought out but they’ve changed the format this season. I say judge then... apparently there will be a bigger financial insentive.. ya never know. I think you more than a lot here remember the European nights last season... I’ll never forget them.. so at least the UEFA cup has done something right
Tony Marsh: I see your point with the league.. it is very poorly thought out but they’ve changed the format this season. I say judge then... apparently there will be a bigger financial insentive.. ya never know. I think you more than a lot here remember the European nights last season... I’ll never forget them.. so at least the UEFA cup has done something right
Ben Jones
Lets just put this idiotic article to bed and we’ll see who actually thinks things through here.
The most annoying part of this piece is Kirwin wants to prioritise the Europa Cup over the FA cup.
In the FA cup; at least 4 of the best teams in Europe will be fighting for it . In the Europa : teams that couldnt even win the league in countries like Iceland, Wales and Finland qualify
In the FA cup : If we win six matches we win the cup and NET 5.5 MILLION. in the Europa : Play dozen squad draining matches . . .to break even
The FA : is the oldest with the finest tradition. The Europa :comes out rehashed for the umpteenth time again next year . . .because it keeps failing
The FA : gives you nights like the Gosling derby. The Europa . . .well unless you were on the piss in Nuremberg or somewhere nobody remembers what it brings . . Are you getting my drift ? do you think maybe its you who hasnt thought this through ?
1 The article claims you have to win the FA cup or Carling to qualify for the Europa cup . . absolute nonsence, Simply untrue
2 It also claims it brings increased revenue. Again untrue, unless you can actually win it or at least get to the final most clubs - us included - make nothing. Kirwin claims it will increase our exposure. again not true, the Prem is watched by a world wide audience . . .the Europa cup is not, the fact that its on chanel 5 gives you a measure of its popularity .
The article says fans and players love to travell to these places, well I’ve spoken to a few players on this and they hate a lot of these destinations, besides some of these grounds are so small we only get a few hundred tickets, agian fine if your on the lash, but lets not pretend its a football thing.
As for your respect for my views . . .Having read your post I’ve decided to try to soldier on without it
Lets just put this idiotic article to bed and we’ll see who actually thinks things through here.
The most annoying part of this piece is Kirwin wants to prioritise the Europa Cup over the FA cup.
In the FA cup; at least 4 of the best teams in Europe will be fighting for it . In the Europa : teams that couldnt even win the league in countries like Iceland, Wales and Finland qualify
In the FA cup : If we win six matches we win the cup and NET 5.5 MILLION. in the Europa : Play dozen squad draining matches . . .to break even
The FA : is the oldest with the finest tradition. The Europa :comes out rehashed for the umpteenth time again next year . . .because it keeps failing
The FA : gives you nights like the Gosling derby. The Europa . . .well unless you were on the piss in Nuremberg or somewhere nobody remembers what it brings . . Are you getting my drift ? do you think maybe its you who hasnt thought this through ?
1 The article claims you have to win the FA cup or Carling to qualify for the Europa cup . . absolute nonsence, Simply untrue
2 It also claims it brings increased revenue. Again untrue, unless you can actually win it or at least get to the final most clubs - us included - make nothing. Kirwin claims it will increase our exposure. again not true, the Prem is watched by a world wide audience . . .the Europa cup is not, the fact that its on chanel 5 gives you a measure of its popularity .
The article says fans and players love to travell to these places, well I’ve spoken to a few players on this and they hate a lot of these destinations, besides some of these grounds are so small we only get a few hundred tickets, agian fine if your on the lash, but lets not pretend its a football thing.
As for your respect for my views . . .Having read your post I’ve decided to try to soldier on without it
ALAN KIRWIN
Great post Alan, many valid points.If it is not important getting in these cup competitions then what is the point of having a football club.
Its about progress and exposure in the right ways that will carry this club forward, I am surprised yet again at the negativity of some of the "morbid" who ripped into your reasoning, but it makes a good debate, and make this Toffeeweb so good
On a different note and threaded before.
PRIOITIES - A right side midfielder please, a cert from David Moyes, but who ??
Great post Alan, many valid points.If it is not important getting in these cup competitions then what is the point of having a football club.
Its about progress and exposure in the right ways that will carry this club forward, I am surprised yet again at the negativity of some of the "morbid" who ripped into your reasoning, but it makes a good debate, and make this Toffeeweb so good
On a different note and threaded before.
PRIOITIES - A right side midfielder please, a cert from David Moyes, but who ??
Danny Moore - you’re 100% right - the Europa league is a stepping stone to bigger and better things! COYB
AGREED!!!
Martin Berry
Nobody ripped into Kirwins reasoning - there wasnt any.
I challenged the obvious untruths in his article
If you believe, you have to win a cup to qualify for the Europa cup OR that we get more exposure in the Europa cup than we would in the prem, OR we have the numbers to cope, OR the Europa cup actually generates TV revenue, OR that players enjoy travelling to some of these places on a Thursday, OR that the club managed the last campaign superbly - a statement only someone who never goes near GP could make - or that this trophy should be prioritised over the FA cup, then fine, all I can say to that is, Your knowledge of our club is about on a Parr with Mr Kirwins . . . bet you’ve both got Wembley tickets
Nobody ripped into Kirwins reasoning - there wasnt any.
I challenged the obvious untruths in his article
If you believe, you have to win a cup to qualify for the Europa cup OR that we get more exposure in the Europa cup than we would in the prem, OR we have the numbers to cope, OR the Europa cup actually generates TV revenue, OR that players enjoy travelling to some of these places on a Thursday, OR that the club managed the last campaign superbly - a statement only someone who never goes near GP could make - or that this trophy should be prioritised over the FA cup, then fine, all I can say to that is, Your knowledge of our club is about on a Parr with Mr Kirwins . . . bet you’ve both got Wembley tickets
The Europa Cup is not a stepping stone to greater things, it is a mine strewn field laid out to maintain the status quo. If you are not one for conspiracy theories, the competition certainly in effect stifles teams threatening Champion League quotas. There is a reason why the Bolton’s and Villa’s de-emphasised the Cup: It was the rational thing to do. Man City had nothing else to play for so they also did the rational thing and gunned for it. If we had gone deep into the competition this year I can guarantee we’d be chasing Fulham and West Ham, and not trying to crawl past the corpse that is Villa into fifth.
Now what do they do with the Europa Cup/League? More games, and they still have the temerity to continue the shower of shite of the CL also-rans polluting the Last 32. Those who say winning Cups is what is remembered, and no one remembers who finishes 4th are missing the point . We cannot hope to compete, to be truly great again, until we break up the hegemony of the SKY 4, and that is by at first finishing consistently 4th, then onwards from there. Do I like this state of affairs, of course not. I absolutely despise it, but that is the lay of the land. Barring outside investment, we can never break into the top 4 with a small squad fighting on so many fronts, and we can never afford a larger squad until we can tap into Champions League monies. Classic Catch-22, unless Everton can surgically strike a place into the top 4. The Europa Cup is a mere bauble that will only serve to derail Everton from what should be her true goal.
Now what do they do with the Europa Cup/League? More games, and they still have the temerity to continue the shower of shite of the CL also-rans polluting the Last 32. Those who say winning Cups is what is remembered, and no one remembers who finishes 4th are missing the point . We cannot hope to compete, to be truly great again, until we break up the hegemony of the SKY 4, and that is by at first finishing consistently 4th, then onwards from there. Do I like this state of affairs, of course not. I absolutely despise it, but that is the lay of the land. Barring outside investment, we can never break into the top 4 with a small squad fighting on so many fronts, and we can never afford a larger squad until we can tap into Champions League monies. Classic Catch-22, unless Everton can surgically strike a place into the top 4. The Europa Cup is a mere bauble that will only serve to derail Everton from what should be her true goal.
If Liverpool, AC MIlan, Bayern Munich take this cup seriously when they have not qualified for the CL (in last 8/9 years) then we should. All fans like Dave Wilson & Tony Marsh are entitled to thier opinions but I honestly reckon that thier pessimism is clouding thier views on this one.
So, Will, Villa " de-emphasised " the uefa cup and became a corpse.
I can see the attraction to your argument !
I can see the attraction to your argument !
The sole reason for the rebrand of the Uefa Cup was to make it more like a CL2 with 12 groups of 4 with 6 games and the top 2 going though, the TV rights are sold as a package like the CL not on a game by basis like it is now which will increase the amount of money it generates (my money is on a Satanta / Channel 5 share deal which is better than us being shuved on ITV3).
Also if you look how Newcastle struggled in the CL every year they were in it, yet the Shite have taken to it like a duck to water, granted they have had European managers who like eurpean football (and let not forget Newcastle are shite) but them being it for a few seasons and then winning it has helped them massively.
Also if you look how Newcastle struggled in the CL every year they were in it, yet the Shite have taken to it like a duck to water, granted they have had European managers who like eurpean football (and let not forget Newcastle are shite) but them being it for a few seasons and then winning it has helped them massively.
Simply put they changed the format to further ensure the big boys stay at the top. To think a team gets about 15 million from being in the Champions League group stages yet the team who wins the Uefa Cup gets about 3 million tells you just how corrupt it really is. With that being said The Sky 4 must have lapped it up when Villa put out a reserve and got knocked out and then imploded. In the space of 2 weeks Villa had lost it all- Fa Cup, Uefa Cup and 4th spot. That is just what they want which is why I for one would take the Uefa Cup seriously. Untill teams actually go on strike and refuse to play in the competition then we may as well be serious about winning it.
By playing a weak side Villa basically conceded defeat to the Sky 4 by showing their desperation to break in. Nothing wrong with that accept it is exactly what the darling teams want and inevitably get. Oh and 1 final thing could anyone help me on this please. Sky talk as though football started in 1992 with the start of the Premiership- would anyone mind telling me how many titles The Shite have won during that time? Because according to Skys logic that would mean Blackburn Rovers are a bigger football club. You can’t have it both ways I’m afraid satellite boys.
By playing a weak side Villa basically conceded defeat to the Sky 4 by showing their desperation to break in. Nothing wrong with that accept it is exactly what the darling teams want and inevitably get. Oh and 1 final thing could anyone help me on this please. Sky talk as though football started in 1992 with the start of the Premiership- would anyone mind telling me how many titles The Shite have won during that time? Because according to Skys logic that would mean Blackburn Rovers are a bigger football club. You can’t have it both ways I’m afraid satellite boys.
Dave Wilson
I will say again because you obviously dont understand. There are only so many competitions that you can win, regardless of how you merit there standings. We strive to impove and therefore qualify and try to win, that is why have a football club.
Players complaining about travelling to far of venues, part and parcel of a well paid job, many of us have to do that sometimes, thats why there playing football, they love it and want to win things, unless you want the rules to allow us only to play at home
As for revenue from the Europa, ok its not a pot of gold, but UEFA know the problems and hopefully the money will improve. Also theres the kudos of Everton in Eurpope, the fact it attracts better players who want to play in European cup competitions, sometimes its the not the hard cash but the spinoffs that reap other rewards.
And David you are right on one thing, I dont go to Goodison at all now because I live abroad, but i do as much "on the ground" in Asia to promote Everton FC as I can. I even drink Chang everynight, despite my doctors advice, to help swell (if not my stomach) the coffers of Chang brewery, to indirectly help Evertons finances ! And ....
Just because I am not a season ticket holder doesnt mean that i am any less knowlegeable, vocal in my support of the club or from a lower "supporter" caste.
Get that brasso ready for polishing all those trophies
I will say again because you obviously dont understand. There are only so many competitions that you can win, regardless of how you merit there standings. We strive to impove and therefore qualify and try to win, that is why have a football club.
Players complaining about travelling to far of venues, part and parcel of a well paid job, many of us have to do that sometimes, thats why there playing football, they love it and want to win things, unless you want the rules to allow us only to play at home
As for revenue from the Europa, ok its not a pot of gold, but UEFA know the problems and hopefully the money will improve. Also theres the kudos of Everton in Eurpope, the fact it attracts better players who want to play in European cup competitions, sometimes its the not the hard cash but the spinoffs that reap other rewards.
And David you are right on one thing, I dont go to Goodison at all now because I live abroad, but i do as much "on the ground" in Asia to promote Everton FC as I can. I even drink Chang everynight, despite my doctors advice, to help swell (if not my stomach) the coffers of Chang brewery, to indirectly help Evertons finances ! And ....
Just because I am not a season ticket holder doesnt mean that i am any less knowlegeable, vocal in my support of the club or from a lower "supporter" caste.
Get that brasso ready for polishing all those trophies
Martin
I was merely addressing your belief that I was ripping into the "reasoning" of the article
I didnt see any reason in the article - feel free to point it out - I saw only falsehoods and inaccuracies.
I believe this cup to be a a handicap in our quest for better things, but I appear to be in a minority. so I wont be trying to change anyones mind, I know I cant. Enjoy your Chang . . . and the Europa cup
I was merely addressing your belief that I was ripping into the "reasoning" of the article
I didnt see any reason in the article - feel free to point it out - I saw only falsehoods and inaccuracies.
I believe this cup to be a a handicap in our quest for better things, but I appear to be in a minority. so I wont be trying to change anyones mind, I know I cant. Enjoy your Chang . . . and the Europa cup
Thank you, Peter, for pointing out my spelling error. I likely should have used a zed in there!
Actually, I have been swayed. Next season I believe 17 more matches will waft us up, as if on a soft pillow, to the heady heights of, say, nestling nicely between Arsenal and Liverpool. Liverpool, finishing a poor fifth, will then have to finance that worrying debt with the riches that come with Europa League participation.
Actually, I have been swayed. Next season I believe 17 more matches will waft us up, as if on a soft pillow, to the heady heights of, say, nestling nicely between Arsenal and Liverpool. Liverpool, finishing a poor fifth, will then have to finance that worrying debt with the riches that come with Europa League participation.
I have had not had my name officially changed to w. Ah, for a editor function!
Although you’ve liste the Prem as number one priority, it is unlikely it will be if we’re competing in the Europa. The Europa will have diastrous effects on our league form.
Like last season Alan?
When our best run of form timed with our games in the Uefa cup group stages? Lke then?
When our best run of form timed with our games in the Uefa cup group stages? Lke then?
Dave Wilson - or perhaps just Wilson, as it seems we’re on surname only terms (you an authoritative teacher by any chance?); you’re clearly on an emotional precipice here. What’s the problem exactly?
Oh and if you check, you will see that winners of the FA & Carling cups qualify for the Europa tournament. Why on earth do you keep suggesting otherwise?
Other than that I’d just say try and adopting some manners and restraint when commenting on here, or anywhere else for that matter. You’re a very rude man.
Oh and if you check, you will see that winners of the FA & Carling cups qualify for the Europa tournament. Why on earth do you keep suggesting otherwise?
Other than that I’d just say try and adopting some manners and restraint when commenting on here, or anywhere else for that matter. You’re a very rude man.
JL Slap - How very rude of you to introduce a fact into this de-generating debate. Nice one :-) You a fan of Garry Richardson by any chance?
Dave has a point, if the Europa cup is such a prestigious trophy to win, why do they have to keep re-inventing it, to try and make it popular?
Alan Kirwin
I contested the accuracy of the other points you raised - thought thats what TW was about
In your reply you were your usual vicious insulting loutish self . but you picked on the wrong fella
I dont really need any advice from you in manners.
I contested the accuracy of the other points you raised - thought thats what TW was about
In your reply you were your usual vicious insulting loutish self . but you picked on the wrong fella
I dont really need any advice from you in manners.
Alan Kirwin
BTW,
"You claimed you have to win the FA cup or the Carling cup to qualify" than ask your self how we managed to be in it for th past two season ? . . . . .Penny dropped ?
BTW,
"You claimed you have to win the FA cup or the Carling cup to qualify" than ask your self how we managed to be in it for th past two season ? . . . . .Penny dropped ?
we came in 4th because we are a great team and we’ll stick together, and any cup is important no matter what it is!
This year, Moyes should aim to get any transfer dealings done as early as possible, preferably before everyone fucks off on their summer hols. I don't think it does the club or the fans any good to drag things out 'til the eleventh hour on the last day before the window shuts.
Out: VDM, Jô (unless we can get him cheap or on a year's loan), Castillo, Turner
In: Moutinho, Jenas , a.n.other (left sided winger)?, GK?
A year's extension: Jacobsen, Valente
If we keep Jo, let Anichebe go out on loan
Get them signed up ASAP, get them all touring and training together and hit the ground running when the season kicks off. Don't forget the season will start early with qualifying rounds of the Europa League in July and August. The season we signed AJ, we signed him early and got the season off with a flyer.
We don't want the repeat of last summer with all its uncertainty.
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