The Mail Bag
Moyes and the Sky four
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Interested reading all the comments after Saturday. A lot has been written on these pages about the tactics and way we play against the Sky 4 under Moyes in the past. It is hard to argue we don't play differently against the likes of Arsenal, Chelski etc... but what is the reason?
Many suggest Moyes and his negative tactics but Ican not disagree more. For me, we have too many players who bottle playing their own games against these teams. On Saturday we played 'hoofball' for large parts of the game. But I do not believe that Moyes sends his teams out to play that way.
I think it's the likes of Hibbo, Pip, Jobo and to some extent Cahill who panic and tend to hoof it, much to the displeasure of Moyes. I noticed at the West Ham game Yobo hoofing it and Moyes gave him a rollocking. So who do you think is to blame... Moyes or the players?
Alex Newman, Posted 04/06/2009 at 09:04:22
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Michael Kenrick
Moyes.
Players
Players.
I very much doubt Moyes sends the side out saying...
"Lads..as soon as you get that ball in our half, launch it downfield so Saha & the Yak can chase some aimless balls.
Then get back in formation and wait for the other side to bring it back".
Better quality players are more likely to close down space early leaving it more difficult for our lot to show for the ball and once the options are limited for the defense, it gets hoofed.
A classic example was Man U versus Barca in the Champs final. United were allowed no space because Barca pushed up on them as soon as they had the ball, forcing them to hoof it.
If we were to get more quality in the middle, I’d imagine we’d see less of this nonsense.
"Lads..as soon as you get that ball in our half, launch it downfield so Saha & the Yak can chase some aimless balls.
Then get back in formation and wait for the other side to bring it back".
Better quality players are more likely to close down space early leaving it more difficult for our lot to show for the ball and once the options are limited for the defense, it gets hoofed.
A classic example was Man U versus Barca in the Champs final. United were allowed no space because Barca pushed up on them as soon as they had the ball, forcing them to hoof it.
If we were to get more quality in the middle, I’d imagine we’d see less of this nonsense.
Both are at fault. The players for not believing in their own ability and Moyes for not threatening to bench them.
I definitely think it’s the players and their lack of belief in themselves and their team-mates. Against Chelsea in the FA Cup, once Hibbo and Ossie were getting done over on our right side, I think this had a detrimental effect (confidence wise) on the entire side. In my opinion, the two mentioned above, and perhaps Howard and Lescott tend to lack that edge when we play the better sides. I’m not saying we should get rid (especially in the case of the latter two), maybe it’s just an inferiority complex that they need to overcome. In summary, we need more players like Cahill, Jagielka, and Rodwell who I think have full confidence in their own abilities.
Moyes.
Even if you prescribe to it’s the players, Moyes is the manager and coach and ultimately takes credit / criticism for what they do. Either way, Moyes.
Even if you prescribe to it’s the players, Moyes is the manager and coach and ultimately takes credit / criticism for what they do. Either way, Moyes.
"Cahill! Hoof it once more, and you’ll take Gosling’s place on the bench!"
That must be some threat to behold.
That must be some threat to behold.
Rappers
I think Liam has it about right, and this is obviously an area which has to be improved if we are to make progress.
I had a look at the results against the clubs who finished above us and compared them to Villa’s.
Everton - W0 : L4 : D4 : F5 : A9 : Pts 4
Villa - W1 : L4 : D3 : F6 : A15 : Pts 6
So lots of room for improvement, but its not impossible to imagine that strengthening in midfield with the consequent support in attack could pay real dividends.
I had a look at the results against the clubs who finished above us and compared them to Villa’s.
Everton - W0 : L4 : D4 : F5 : A9 : Pts 4
Villa - W1 : L4 : D3 : F6 : A15 : Pts 6
So lots of room for improvement, but its not impossible to imagine that strengthening in midfield with the consequent support in attack could pay real dividends.
Can’t overlook the fact the Sky Four generally have more quality in terms of players -- the players and Moyes may be doing the best they possibly can, but sometimes the opposition just prevents you from playing the way you want.
And sometimes not -- I thought we played very good football at Stamford Bridge.
And sometimes not -- I thought we played very good football at Stamford Bridge.
Maybe something to do with the fact that the top teams tend to have a very organised ?pressing defence? that makes it much harder to play from the back. Chelsea probably being the best exponents of it in the league.
The biggest problem I see is that the players just don?t seem to believe they can win, and for me, that?s down to Moyes.
You can?t just say it?s because they?ve got better players, think of all the cup upsets over the years, it?s down to belief, the manager has to get it his players heads that they are not playing demigods, as Moyes constantly tells the media, they are playing 11 other men.
I used to play at a decent level myself and after I hung my boots up one of my ex-teammates who was now managing a team asked me how he could improve his team.
You?ll be amazed at my response: Get better quality players.
How you can expect us to consistently beat SQUADS who cost £300 million plus to put together is beyond me.
WHY do the SKY 4 consistently BE the top 4 ... because they have all the money and therefore the best players.
THe only way to combat this is instead of buying great players create best players but this is now becoming more difficult, a la Rooney ? as soon as they get noticed, the SKY 4 are talking to the agents.
Look at Ramsey; promising talent but done nothing ? goes to Arsenal reserves.
Moyes has it just about right.
Grow your own talent in the "Everton Way" and get them on long term contracts.
Grow team spirit and stay competitive.
We have certainly become more competeitive recently but WILL NOT consistently challenge the top 4 until we get some better quality in the team and the SQUAD.
You?ll be amazed at my response: Get better quality players.
How you can expect us to consistently beat SQUADS who cost £300 million plus to put together is beyond me.
WHY do the SKY 4 consistently BE the top 4 ... because they have all the money and therefore the best players.
THe only way to combat this is instead of buying great players create best players but this is now becoming more difficult, a la Rooney ? as soon as they get noticed, the SKY 4 are talking to the agents.
Look at Ramsey; promising talent but done nothing ? goes to Arsenal reserves.
Moyes has it just about right.
Grow your own talent in the "Everton Way" and get them on long term contracts.
Grow team spirit and stay competitive.
We have certainly become more competeitive recently but WILL NOT consistently challenge the top 4 until we get some better quality in the team and the SQUAD.
Moyes. Simple put Neville at Right Back, Fuck off Hibbert and play Rodwell. Then we will see the difference.
The fans are to blame.
Jagielka might be a great defender but he hits more long aimless balls than anyone . . . .and we’ve just voted him player of the year
Jagielka might be a great defender but he hits more long aimless balls than anyone . . . .and we’ve just voted him player of the year
Coz Moyes goes for safety first: if in doubt, boot in out...
Hoofball... apart from the School of Science 1971, our 85-86 team was the greatest balanced team I've ever witnessed in a blue shirt with Derek Mountfield who always put the ball in the stands for the team to re-group and defend. He scored approx 14 goals from centre-half position; when in doubt, put it out.
Nobody is to blame. We are the 5th best football side in the country so we have better players than15 other teams and can keep the ball better than them, where as the top 4 have better players than us and so do to us what we do to every other team.
Why does somebody always have to be blame? Why cant people except that for the moment the top 4 are better than us so more often than not they will beat us unless they have an off day of get bad decisions againt them or if we are lucky in some way.
When Moyes has 11 top players that he can call on without having to carry players in the team then we will be able to compete and have more chance of winning. The fact is Chelsea knocked Arsenal out the FA Cup Liverpool out the CL and should have beat barcelona, so it should be no great shock to people that we were beaten by a side that had its strongest 11 on the pitch where as we were missing our 3 best players.
I have faith that under Moyes the team will continue to improve and we will get closer every year untill we eventually break the top 4 and then anything can happen. Please stop pointing the finger its pointless.
Why does somebody always have to be blame? Why cant people except that for the moment the top 4 are better than us so more often than not they will beat us unless they have an off day of get bad decisions againt them or if we are lucky in some way.
When Moyes has 11 top players that he can call on without having to carry players in the team then we will be able to compete and have more chance of winning. The fact is Chelsea knocked Arsenal out the FA Cup Liverpool out the CL and should have beat barcelona, so it should be no great shock to people that we were beaten by a side that had its strongest 11 on the pitch where as we were missing our 3 best players.
I have faith that under Moyes the team will continue to improve and we will get closer every year untill we eventually break the top 4 and then anything can happen. Please stop pointing the finger its pointless.
Ian Tunny "Why does somebody always have to be blame?"
Ian, I totally agree. I?m not looking to blame anyone... that was definitely an incorrect turn of phrase... i just wondering what people's thoughts were.
I think many people have got it right... we just don?t quite have the players, the Sky 4 do. They have the ability to press teams. For me, I?m made up with how we are doing. just many always look to blame and I can't agree with anyone who suggests Moyes is to blame.
I blame the midfield as much as the defence, quite often its only pienar who’s prepared to come looking for the ball and take it in tight situations, thats were weve missed arteta. Teams are also playing a high back line against us knowing weve got no pace upfront therefore compressing the midfield giving less options for the defence.
The likes of Fulham, Hull, Tottenham, Stoke etc have all gained 3 points when playing some of the sky4. While we havn’t, we manage draws at best at the moment.
Why?
Well, when the sky4 play teams such as Hull, Fulham etc they expect to win, and thus don’t try/concentrate as much as they would against bigger teams. Most of the time it is still enough for victory, but there is always the occasional shock.
When they play Everton, they know that they must play well. They know they need to work hard, concentrate for 90 minutes and they do indeed do this.
So when you have someone like Essien, Lampard, Carrick, Fabregas, Gerrard trying their hardest against Osman and Phil Neville, we will be fortunate to beat them.
However, with 2 new midfielders and a right back, our first 11 we be equal to that of Arsenal and Chelsea.
Moyes does try and play the ball along the ground most of the time, however when a player is under pressure and the team is finding difficulty keeping ball in midfield, then hoofing it up is the natural reaction.
It is a frustrating tactic, especially when used constantly, but it can also lead to goals, and must also be seen as a tactic.
Why?
Well, when the sky4 play teams such as Hull, Fulham etc they expect to win, and thus don’t try/concentrate as much as they would against bigger teams. Most of the time it is still enough for victory, but there is always the occasional shock.
When they play Everton, they know that they must play well. They know they need to work hard, concentrate for 90 minutes and they do indeed do this.
So when you have someone like Essien, Lampard, Carrick, Fabregas, Gerrard trying their hardest against Osman and Phil Neville, we will be fortunate to beat them.
However, with 2 new midfielders and a right back, our first 11 we be equal to that of Arsenal and Chelsea.
Moyes does try and play the ball along the ground most of the time, however when a player is under pressure and the team is finding difficulty keeping ball in midfield, then hoofing it up is the natural reaction.
It is a frustrating tactic, especially when used constantly, but it can also lead to goals, and must also be seen as a tactic.
Please tell me this publication can be relied upon for once http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/2465852/Liverpool-facing-ruin.html
Fran ? I think you make a good point. We used to get regularly battered by virtual second string Sky 4 sides. We now play against their strongest line-ups who are up for one of their toughest games and either draw or lose by the odd goal.
Nobody has a decent record against the Sky 4 ? that's why they are the Sky 4.
Nobody has a decent record against the Sky 4 ? that's why they are the Sky 4.
Its everyone’s fault!
Moyes: For not taking action against those guilty.
Defence: For.....well, playing those hoofballs in the first place.
Midfield: For either not coming deep enough to collect the balls from the defence or for smashing it up themselves when they do run back
Attack: For actually chasing and sometimes winning those aimless balls
Supporters: For cheering when our strikers win those aimless balls
Come on lads, our players are better than those below us in the tables and thats why, we tend to now play a more pleasing passing game against them and their players look like headless chickens. The SKY 4 have better players than us, and hence, when they start playing, all our players gets a case of Hibbertitis (noted in medical journals as a disease where a footballer runs about the field doing nothing of use).
Moyes: For not taking action against those guilty.
Defence: For.....well, playing those hoofballs in the first place.
Midfield: For either not coming deep enough to collect the balls from the defence or for smashing it up themselves when they do run back
Attack: For actually chasing and sometimes winning those aimless balls
Supporters: For cheering when our strikers win those aimless balls
Come on lads, our players are better than those below us in the tables and thats why, we tend to now play a more pleasing passing game against them and their players look like headless chickens. The SKY 4 have better players than us, and hence, when they start playing, all our players gets a case of Hibbertitis (noted in medical journals as a disease where a footballer runs about the field doing nothing of use).
For me anyway, Jagielka is a lot more composed on the ball than Yobo is at the back. Yobo hoofs it 9 times out of 10. Jags has a bit more footballing ability and tends to play/pass it out of defence when possible to do so.
Midfield is the other problem. If Arteta isn’t there to receive the ball in the middle of the park from Yobo/Jags/Lescott, then your options are cut off straight away. Phil Neville does accept the ball in that position, but most of the time he then hoofs it.... Talent in the middle of the park will stop this. Arteata and hopefully if we get Mouthinho in the middle would go a long way to solving this problem that crops up every so often for us....
Midfield is the other problem. If Arteta isn’t there to receive the ball in the middle of the park from Yobo/Jags/Lescott, then your options are cut off straight away. Phil Neville does accept the ball in that position, but most of the time he then hoofs it.... Talent in the middle of the park will stop this. Arteata and hopefully if we get Mouthinho in the middle would go a long way to solving this problem that crops up every so often for us....
A lack of quality players, but even with quality Moyes's tactics would be questionable.
Obviously Moyes. If he’s not dictating the way his teams play, why is he the manager?
Of course, most of this thread assumes that ’hoofball’ is always wrong. I don’t agree. Given the vast difference in quality between our players and those of the Top 4, playing a quick passing game and committing players high up the pitch would most likely be suicidal.
It’s too easy to say, but with roughly comparable squads, West Brom just got relegated playing a passing game and Stoke easily stayed up playing hoofball. Allardyce saved Blackburn’s bacon by going back to hoofball.
This topic is not at all as easy as most make it sound. We play hoofball some of the time because it is the most likely way we will get results. If Moyes got more talented players, he would play it a lot less.
Of course, most of this thread assumes that ’hoofball’ is always wrong. I don’t agree. Given the vast difference in quality between our players and those of the Top 4, playing a quick passing game and committing players high up the pitch would most likely be suicidal.
It’s too easy to say, but with roughly comparable squads, West Brom just got relegated playing a passing game and Stoke easily stayed up playing hoofball. Allardyce saved Blackburn’s bacon by going back to hoofball.
This topic is not at all as easy as most make it sound. We play hoofball some of the time because it is the most likely way we will get results. If Moyes got more talented players, he would play it a lot less.
Lack of quaility players
Alex; I quite agree, I don’t think Moyes deliberately sends the team out to play hoof-ball but the problem rears its ugly head because the players freeze & don’t have the confidence to accept responsibility. Once a player doesn’t want the ball it gives his team mates little option other than to "hoof" the ball.
Interestingly, there was an article in The Mail (don’t buy the rubbish, read it on line!) written by a young blue who was one of the mascots on Saturday. She’s only 12 (as I remember) but she still noticed just how nervous the Everton players were before kick off, especially Pienaar. And I think that nervousness translates onto the pitch with a lack of self belief.
But all is not lost. The more the team get accustomed to playing in these big matches the more relaxed they’ll become, and in theory, the better they’ll play. In addition, we can also look forward to Jack Rodwell establishing himself and in him we have a player who always looks to play the ball on the ground to a team mate.
One final point. Alex Newman, haven’t you got finals coming up? Get back to your books or I’ll tell your dad!
Interestingly, there was an article in The Mail (don’t buy the rubbish, read it on line!) written by a young blue who was one of the mascots on Saturday. She’s only 12 (as I remember) but she still noticed just how nervous the Everton players were before kick off, especially Pienaar. And I think that nervousness translates onto the pitch with a lack of self belief.
But all is not lost. The more the team get accustomed to playing in these big matches the more relaxed they’ll become, and in theory, the better they’ll play. In addition, we can also look forward to Jack Rodwell establishing himself and in him we have a player who always looks to play the ball on the ground to a team mate.
One final point. Alex Newman, haven’t you got finals coming up? Get back to your books or I’ll tell your dad!
I think that, by and large that the way a football teams plays reflects the way in which they train during the week and that is dictated by the manager and his coaching staff.
Therefore teams that adhere to a strictly passing game eg, Man Utd, Arsenal, Spurs, West Ham, WBA will place greater emphasis on that aspect in training and as a result will play their passing to either their benefit or detriment because thats what their accustomed to.
Teams which play more long balls and don?t have the lions share of possession during games aren?t going to look as competent or assured on the ball and are more likely to "hoof" the ball when under pressure.
Therefore teams that adhere to a strictly passing game eg, Man Utd, Arsenal, Spurs, West Ham, WBA will place greater emphasis on that aspect in training and as a result will play their passing to either their benefit or detriment because thats what their accustomed to.
Teams which play more long balls and don?t have the lions share of possession during games aren?t going to look as competent or assured on the ball and are more likely to "hoof" the ball when under pressure.
Some excellent points. Let’s remember no team this season has seriously outclassed us. Some teams have had more possession but done little with it (notably the RS). To have won on Saturday, which was very possible, we needed everyone to play to their max. They didn’t. We have seen over the last few weeks some excellent approach play- even without Arteta- but have had trouble scoring. We still need a centre forward who can score regularly. Where would Liverpool be without Torres?
But credit to the lads - I’d rather be one of Bills Boys than Abramovitchs bitch.
But credit to the lads - I’d rather be one of Bills Boys than Abramovitchs bitch.
I think that we have played less hoofball this season than anytime in the last 20 years. That's because we have the best team we?ve had for the last 20 years.
When we played Chelski, the early goal made us nervous and them fired up, from then on we were on the back foot, they pressed us, we panicked and, hey presto ?hoofball.
Who gives a shit?
We’re getting better as we get better players who are more composed on the ball. Laying blame really doesn’t help
We’re getting better as we get better players who are more composed on the ball. Laying blame really doesn’t help
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