The Mail Bag
Definition of a fraudster
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One who deceives, a trickster.
Can we start another thread (as it?s unfair to David Nichols) there again it may take a book to debate all the deceipt and tricks BK has performed.
"The money for Kings Dock is ringfenced"
"The cheque will be in the bank in the morning"
"I would not sell Rooney for £50 million"
"I have been looking for investment 24/7"
"The council would not give us planning permission for Stanley Park"
"I want to sell the club to a billionaire"
"The directors of EFC do not want to sell their shares"
"I watch videos of the players we are about to buy and I go Wow!"
"Watch this space"
Et cetera... DISCUSS!
Jay Harris, Posted 06/06/2009 at 15:14:13
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Kenwright is skint, even though we earned £50M from telly rights last season (where's that going)? Destination Kirkby???
We won't sign anyone of note and a last-minute rush on the last day of the window is inevitable.
PLEASE learn form what's gone before and stop the Bullshit FM game. It is starting to annoy me.
As Tony Marsh pointed out, our signings won?t be until August 31. So, in other words, we might as well pay no attention to transfers until the morning of September 1st. And what about all these clubs getting takeovers? But Everton of course still have what we have. And why? Because of Kenwright. His way of doing things is this:? "Please can you buy us out but give me the full running of things." ? And then they reply with a big FUCK OFF!
So you really think that someone will buy out your club and then let you call the shots? Kenwright is a shithouse, full stop. And to top it all off, he said Moyes was the greatest Everton manager in his lifetime. Remember this is the same bloke who was around when Harry Catterick and Howard Kendall managed us.
If Moyes was that great then he would have realised long ago that our right side was the weakness. If Moyes was that great he would never have taken off a forward in the Cup Final when we are chasing the game. Moyes is tactically inept and Kenwright is a lying gobshite.
James Boden - Moyes didn?t strengthen the right side probably because Osman and Hibbert can do a an adequate job there. At the time on the left we had Killer and Naysmith...now tell me just who is better really... That is why we bought Baines and Pienaar first, it?s team building by numbers sure, but to be honest that?s what we have to do at Everton because of the cast situation
The league now is a completely different animal to what it was in Kendall's time (all of them) and Harry Catterick's time as well; Kenwright might, might be right. Moyes has had a lot of ground to make up given the limits he has had I think he has done a sterling job. Don't forget the Manures of this world didn?t have half the problems we have had, if it weren?t for Peter Johnson, and the previous chairmen appointing inept managers and sanctioning stupid spending sprees...
The Cup Final, Saha did absolutely fuck all apart from score in the first 30 seconds, he was playing in the right corner flag area. I have seen my doddering granddad run more than he did. To be fair, if you ask me I would have taken him off at half time, Saha hasn?t got it and will never be a first team starter at Goodison Park; he will remain on periphery... he?s due for the glue factory.
The league now is a completely different animal to what it was in Kendall's time (all of them) and Harry Catterick's time as well; Kenwright might, might be right. Moyes has had a lot of ground to make up given the limits he has had I think he has done a sterling job. Don't forget the Manures of this world didn?t have half the problems we have had, if it weren?t for Peter Johnson, and the previous chairmen appointing inept managers and sanctioning stupid spending sprees...
The Cup Final, Saha did absolutely fuck all apart from score in the first 30 seconds, he was playing in the right corner flag area. I have seen my doddering granddad run more than he did. To be fair, if you ask me I would have taken him off at half time, Saha hasn?t got it and will never be a first team starter at Goodison Park; he will remain on periphery... he?s due for the glue factory.
James, that sort of talk is not welcome by many on TW as it's to near the truth for comfort. Kenwright is a fraudster but lots out there refuse to accept it.
Let's not forget BK was part of the Johnson/Finch regime but appears to have learnt nothing. Smoke and mirrors are still the order of the day and we fans never get the truth, regardless of the subject matter at hand. Kings Dock, DK, tickets, transfers ? you name it, Bill spins it.
Let's not forget BK was part of the Johnson/Finch regime but appears to have learnt nothing. Smoke and mirrors are still the order of the day and we fans never get the truth, regardless of the subject matter at hand. Kings Dock, DK, tickets, transfers ? you name it, Bill spins it.
I?ve seen some moronic and offensive posts on here, but James Boden?s takes some beating. Moyes is manager of the year for a reason! People in the game rightly respect what he has achieved. And he couldn?t have achieved it without the faith and support of Kenwright. The coming transfer window won?t be easy, but I think you?d be a fool not to credit Moyes and Kenwright with the ability and determination to pull more rabbits out of the hat and strengthen the squad as they?ve done in previous years.
Tony Marsh, is James Boden one of your minnions? FFS James get a grip, Moyes is the best thing that has happened to our now fallen mess of a club.
He has worked wonders on budgets where other managers with other teams fail miserably.
Yes, he makes mistakes but he is still learning and earning his wings. But to have us more consistent than we have ever been in the Prem is fantastic.
I do agree with you on Kenwright, it's time for him to go.
He has worked wonders on budgets where other managers with other teams fail miserably.
Yes, he makes mistakes but he is still learning and earning his wings. But to have us more consistent than we have ever been in the Prem is fantastic.
I do agree with you on Kenwright, it's time for him to go.
Could somebody please tell me what the supposedly greatest Everton manager in history has ever won?
If Moyes was a good tactician, we would have won something long before now. As great a motivator as he may be, the fact is tactically he hasn?t a clue.
What next? ? people on here will be comparing him with the likes of Brian Clough, Don Revie and Matt Busby...
James, do you actually believe that? A great tactician can win anything even if they have dross to work with?
As has been said many times, you can?t polish a turd... well you can but all you end up with is a polished turd.
You show me the last time a manager with a not too great side won anything of note? (And before you say Harry at Pompey for the FA Cup, there is always an exception to the rule, an aberration.)
You can be one of the best tacticians in the world but if the dopes you employ cannot instigate your plans you are screwed.
Moyes is not the best out there, we all know that, but your repetative, "What has he won?" does him a disservice, as that can be said for about 95% of all the other managers in English Football.
As has been said many times, you can?t polish a turd... well you can but all you end up with is a polished turd.
You show me the last time a manager with a not too great side won anything of note? (And before you say Harry at Pompey for the FA Cup, there is always an exception to the rule, an aberration.)
You can be one of the best tacticians in the world but if the dopes you employ cannot instigate your plans you are screwed.
Moyes is not the best out there, we all know that, but your repetative, "What has he won?" does him a disservice, as that can be said for about 95% of all the other managers in English Football.
Tony Williams, the other 95% of managers aren't being hailed as a Messiah or the greatest thing since sliced bread by other fans at their respective clubs.
I know Moyes has made some progress this season and he will once again be held back by BK but DM still has many flaws which people tend to ignore because of our good League position.
Would so many of our fans be so quick to forgive Moyes for his continued inclusion of Hibbert and Osman if we where in a relegation battle? The answer is no, he would be crucified on a weekly basis.
Basic errors are still occurring, as they were 7 years ago. Blind spots for certain players, poor tactical nous, slow with subs, etc etc. Moyes is decent but relies too much on the same 'as you were' method. There are never any suprises to try and outfox other mangers and in the end we get what we got at Wembley last week.
SUSSED OUT BIG TIME.
I know Moyes has made some progress this season and he will once again be held back by BK but DM still has many flaws which people tend to ignore because of our good League position.
Would so many of our fans be so quick to forgive Moyes for his continued inclusion of Hibbert and Osman if we where in a relegation battle? The answer is no, he would be crucified on a weekly basis.
Basic errors are still occurring, as they were 7 years ago. Blind spots for certain players, poor tactical nous, slow with subs, etc etc. Moyes is decent but relies too much on the same 'as you were' method. There are never any suprises to try and outfox other mangers and in the end we get what we got at Wembley last week.
SUSSED OUT BIG TIME.
James Boden and the return of Tony Marsh.
Basically, during a rather successful season its all quiet on teh anti-Moyes front. Ok his tactics can be questioned game to game, and the usual stuff, but hey Alex Ferguson has periods in a season when his decisions are questioned, but no1 ever says he?s shite, because look at the facts. same with Moyes whilst football is being played, so James and Tony are quiet.
Then, the season is finished, no football to distract people, so these people come on a start saying Moyes is shit at this and that and if any old bloke from the pub could have achieved what he has, and if he knew the difference between a good player and a bad one we?d have won the treble 5 times in the last 7 years, but we havn?t and its because Moyes is shit. FACT!
You moan we dont win silverware, BUT, you are the exact same people saying ?WHAT THE FUCK IS THE POINT IN THE LEAGUE CUP OR EUROPA CUP, we should cencentrate in finishing 4th?
Winning cups is difficult, but we look like are were getting there, and we where unfortunate that we had Hiddinks Chelsea in the Final, not Millwall, West Ham, Pompey.
Yes, BK is an arsehole, 95% of people aggree, and its frustrating that we dont have investment. But look at the Redshite, they sold to so-called billionaires and now they are rite fucked (lets all prey for administration and 10points deducted). City were very lucky to escape after the fiasco of their first takeover. So be lucky that BK hasnt sold to anyone who would sack Moyes and bing in Mancini or some shite manager like that.
Most people also look at transfer speculation with tongue in cheek, its a bit of banter while the football season has finished, harmless. Bit like when you talk about what celeb you would prefer to shag Jennifer Aniston or Angelina Jolie, the one cunt you hate in the pub is the one who goes "why does it matter, you wont fuck her anyway"...great fun that is.
But, your annual moaning of MOYES IS SHIT, is FAR FAR FAR more boring than discussing potential transfer targets.
Basically, during a rather successful season its all quiet on teh anti-Moyes front. Ok his tactics can be questioned game to game, and the usual stuff, but hey Alex Ferguson has periods in a season when his decisions are questioned, but no1 ever says he?s shite, because look at the facts. same with Moyes whilst football is being played, so James and Tony are quiet.
Then, the season is finished, no football to distract people, so these people come on a start saying Moyes is shit at this and that and if any old bloke from the pub could have achieved what he has, and if he knew the difference between a good player and a bad one we?d have won the treble 5 times in the last 7 years, but we havn?t and its because Moyes is shit. FACT!
You moan we dont win silverware, BUT, you are the exact same people saying ?WHAT THE FUCK IS THE POINT IN THE LEAGUE CUP OR EUROPA CUP, we should cencentrate in finishing 4th?
Winning cups is difficult, but we look like are were getting there, and we where unfortunate that we had Hiddinks Chelsea in the Final, not Millwall, West Ham, Pompey.
Yes, BK is an arsehole, 95% of people aggree, and its frustrating that we dont have investment. But look at the Redshite, they sold to so-called billionaires and now they are rite fucked (lets all prey for administration and 10points deducted). City were very lucky to escape after the fiasco of their first takeover. So be lucky that BK hasnt sold to anyone who would sack Moyes and bing in Mancini or some shite manager like that.
Most people also look at transfer speculation with tongue in cheek, its a bit of banter while the football season has finished, harmless. Bit like when you talk about what celeb you would prefer to shag Jennifer Aniston or Angelina Jolie, the one cunt you hate in the pub is the one who goes "why does it matter, you wont fuck her anyway"...great fun that is.
But, your annual moaning of MOYES IS SHIT, is FAR FAR FAR more boring than discussing potential transfer targets.
Tony Marsh. "but DM still has many flaws which people tend to ignore because of our good League position."
Because League position is what matters.
McDonalds is a shit business and their manging directors must have shit for brains, but people dont notice beasue of their massive profits.
What, you dont like his hair or something.
Of course he has some flaws, of course he does.
My girlfriend has flaws, but if everytime I spoke to her I said, ?hairs a bit messy?, ?you dont do that right?, ?why you wearing that shit?, ?your a bit stupid sometimes arent you?, I wouldnt have a girlfirend.
Moyes has flaws, but he has many many positives, WHICH YOU NEVER RECOGNISE
Because League position is what matters.
McDonalds is a shit business and their manging directors must have shit for brains, but people dont notice beasue of their massive profits.
What, you dont like his hair or something.
Of course he has some flaws, of course he does.
My girlfriend has flaws, but if everytime I spoke to her I said, ?hairs a bit messy?, ?you dont do that right?, ?why you wearing that shit?, ?your a bit stupid sometimes arent you?, I wouldnt have a girlfirend.
Moyes has flaws, but he has many many positives, WHICH YOU NEVER RECOGNISE
Bad day Tony? Why don?t you go home and kick the cat? Infinitely preferable to hearing you vent you?re mealy mouthed negativity on these pages yet again!
We?re less than a week into the close season man, we?ve already signed two intriguing youth prospects, tied up some core players to long-term deals and appear to be making quiet enquiries and in-roads into the transfer market elsewhere. Yet already you?re bleating about what a failure the summer?s going to be.
Blimey, just imagine we had lifted the FA Cup the other week, how on earth would you have coped?
We?re less than a week into the close season man, we?ve already signed two intriguing youth prospects, tied up some core players to long-term deals and appear to be making quiet enquiries and in-roads into the transfer market elsewhere. Yet already you?re bleating about what a failure the summer?s going to be.
Blimey, just imagine we had lifted the FA Cup the other week, how on earth would you have coped?
I have to agree with Tony Marsh.
Please stop all this FM rubbish.
Everton are terrible at negotiating anything let alone a transfer! expect to see free transfers if any and the odd loan that no one will have heard of, a la Castillo!
Please stop all this FM rubbish.
Everton are terrible at negotiating anything let alone a transfer! expect to see free transfers if any and the odd loan that no one will have heard of, a la Castillo!
Was Alex Ferguson SUSSED OUT, or were Barcelona simply the better team? Chelsea have Lampard, one of the best goal scoring midfielders in the world, Drogba, Anelka, Essien, Malouda. They never SUSSED us out, they where simply better.
Moyes admits he has alot to learn, he doesn?t claim to be the best, but potentially he is. He does show tactical knowledge. Hence the losses of Yak and Arteta were managed after a couple of games, he developed new ways of playing. His tactics will continue to develop as he learns, he is potentially a very very good manager, there is a reason he has won numerous personal accolades.
There is a reason he is being linked with Utd, not becasue of what he has done, but what people can see he is capable of doing.
No manager is perfect, but name a BETTER manager, who would come to Everton or is doing a better job than he is currently. Bet you can't.
Moyes admits he has alot to learn, he doesn?t claim to be the best, but potentially he is. He does show tactical knowledge. Hence the losses of Yak and Arteta were managed after a couple of games, he developed new ways of playing. His tactics will continue to develop as he learns, he is potentially a very very good manager, there is a reason he has won numerous personal accolades.
There is a reason he is being linked with Utd, not becasue of what he has done, but what people can see he is capable of doing.
No manager is perfect, but name a BETTER manager, who would come to Everton or is doing a better job than he is currently. Bet you can't.
Good post, Fran, fully agree. You only have to look at how well Chelsea stifled Barcelona in the 2nd leg of the Champions League semi-final.
Did Kenwright say Moyes was the greatest Everton manager ever? Not so sure he did.
Anyway, I think Catterick and Kendall would have struggled in today's Premier League with the odds so stacked against everybody but the Sky4. Don?t forget the old League was far more open in the seventies and eighties when teams like Forest, Villa and Derby were able to win it. It's a different game now where money just doesn?t talk, it shouts!
Anyway, I think Catterick and Kendall would have struggled in today's Premier League with the odds so stacked against everybody but the Sky4. Don?t forget the old League was far more open in the seventies and eighties when teams like Forest, Villa and Derby were able to win it. It's a different game now where money just doesn?t talk, it shouts!
I've been reading these articles on the TW for along time now, and I have come to the conclusion that a couple of people write shite on it to spark a reaction from other people (T Marsh and his bitch Boden). I have come this conclusion because there is no way a proper Evertonian would write such pure and utter crap.
I frankly find it quite staggering that, just a week after the season has finished ? a season in which we finished fifth again, against all odds, and got to the Cup Final, against all odds ? Marsh and his cronies are already back on the anti-Moyes bandwagon.
Here?s a thought chaps - why not take some time to enjoy the progress that has been made, and the recognition we are finally starting to get in parts of the media? Oh, and if you don?t like all this ?FM bullshit?, dont read and/or post on a fucking thread that is about a player we are rumoured to be signing! Some of us enjoy the speculation, the discussion etc. about who we might sign.
Ah, I get it now, Simon ? in order to be a PROPER Evertonian, you must not be critical of the manager or the Chairman on any subject whatsoever... Bollocks, mate.
It's head-in-the-sand fans like you that hold us back. As long as there are Simon Dixons and Fran Mitchells knocking about, BK is safe in his job forever, regardless of how many times he fucks us over.
I said above Moyes is doing a decent job but the chairman is a conman, if you can't see that then that's your problem, not mine.
It's head-in-the-sand fans like you that hold us back. As long as there are Simon Dixons and Fran Mitchells knocking about, BK is safe in his job forever, regardless of how many times he fucks us over.
I said above Moyes is doing a decent job but the chairman is a conman, if you can't see that then that's your problem, not mine.
Haha... depth? We don?t even have enough to field a team in a Cup Final. We are in need of a left back, a right back, an enforcer in CM, an outside mid and a fit striker. Moyes has done a great job to steady the ship over the years he has been here - fine. That is old news by now. Now it?s time to get in some players who will help us get to the promised land. Fair play to Os, Hibbo, even Baines ? but they should be on their way (even though we will keep Baines). Castillo can?t do it either.
The only problem is that Moyes is attracted to a certain type of player and personality. He will not go for the ?twitchy - eyed? footballer ? one who might bend a rule or two, grown his hair a little long (yeah, I know we have Fro Magnon Man), or piss in the flower bed. Every team needs at least one or two of these types of players to achieve the right balance. We have a great team made up of the same player: hard working, huff and puff attitude who, when it comes to figuring their way out of a cul-de-sac, become mindless and predictable. That?s a great foundation but we need more.
True - Moyes has brought many more smiles than frowns during his Dictatorship - but me thinks it?s time for an injection of talent that isn?t the same boring song. Only then will we reach the top drawer.
Read the question you were supposed to be talking about. Is M'Bia the new Carsley? You never even mentioned the name Carsley. Instead, you went of on your normal rant. BK's a crook and Osman is shit! The question wasn't what do you think of BK and Osman.
"Head in the sand Evertonians holding the club back " ?
I truly dread to imagine what sort of state we?d be in if Tony Marsh had his way.
Give it a rest Tony. Go and see a doctor about that temper.
I truly dread to imagine what sort of state we?d be in if Tony Marsh had his way.
Give it a rest Tony. Go and see a doctor about that temper.
The constant reoccuring debate over Moyes and Kenwright is one which randomly crops up everwhere on this site. Firstly, to the anti-Moyes people, I certainlty agree Moyes is poor tactically and sometimes quite negative. However, if you look at how far Everton has come under Moyes's tenure can only show the man has done something spectacularly right. This is of course immense signings and transfer dealings in the market (maybe only Arsene Wenger better).
A superb tactician would have been useless when we fell 2-1 down to Chelski in the cup final as he would not have bought the quality signings to even get him there.
As for Kenwright, forgive my ignorance but can somebody explain why they call him "Black Bill". Don't know too much about this argument. Enlighten me anybody!
Kenwright out, Mike Ashley in!!
Sinmon Dixon: I?ve been reading these articles on the TW for along time now, and I have come to the conclusion that a couple of people write shite on it to spark a reaction from other people (T Marsh and his bitch Boden). I have come this conclusion because there is no way a proper Evertonian would write such pure and utter crap.
Simon, you get a ban from ToffeeWeb until you straighten yourself out, and I?ll explain why.
Firstly, never ever come on this website and state what a "proper Evertonian" would do or write or say. That is totally unacceptable.
Secondly, to denigrate another Evertonian?s opinion by claiming it is a wind-up or has been submitted to spark a reaction flies completely in the face of what this forum is intended to provide, and is therefore also totally unacceptable.
Thirdly, calling James Boden "bitch". Taotally unacceptable.
To participate in this fourm, you need to respect the fact that other Evertonians are providing their opinions, and you need to accept that they may differ from yours.
Let me know when you?re ready.
How can people say the has been no improvement under Moyes? S Watson, Weir, Naysmith, Gravesen, Campbell, Pembridge, Gemmil. Who do we have now finishing in top half every season? Arteta, Cahill, Jags, Yak, Baines Lescott, Pienaar plus all the kids Gosling and others we have signed. Not improved much.
To be fair Michael, whilst no one can deny Simon spoke out of turn he does have a point.
The general vibe of TW would be described by its supporters as "realistic" but it can be overly negative to the outsider looking in.
This is a site that I have a lot of time for, due to the quality of its layout and its constant stream of daily Everton news.
However you must yourself admit that a lot of the opinions posted on this board seem to be intentionally sensationalist. For a man who seems to like to keep things real, I don?t understand why your site has so many contributors who offer opinions bordering on conspiracy theories than being backed up with factual knowledge and rational opinions.
I can understand after a match and during it, emotions run high, but take this thread for instance. It is about a report only made by Setenta with regards to use signing a new player. The thread does not seem to remain centred around its main topic for long, ie. the quality or need for the player, but instead turns to conspiracy theories about how the club conducts its business and transfer dealings!
I think Simon has basically finally snapped and offered a view espoused by other Evertonians that there is an unintentionally negative vibe to the posts on this site, which is a shame considering it is otherwise a site of the highest calibre. I?m not one who subscribes to the idea of a "proper Evertonian", but you shouldn?t single handedly dismiss Simon from this site for what was a comment made in the heat of the moment.
The general vibe of TW would be described by its supporters as "realistic" but it can be overly negative to the outsider looking in.
This is a site that I have a lot of time for, due to the quality of its layout and its constant stream of daily Everton news.
However you must yourself admit that a lot of the opinions posted on this board seem to be intentionally sensationalist. For a man who seems to like to keep things real, I don?t understand why your site has so many contributors who offer opinions bordering on conspiracy theories than being backed up with factual knowledge and rational opinions.
I can understand after a match and during it, emotions run high, but take this thread for instance. It is about a report only made by Setenta with regards to use signing a new player. The thread does not seem to remain centred around its main topic for long, ie. the quality or need for the player, but instead turns to conspiracy theories about how the club conducts its business and transfer dealings!
I think Simon has basically finally snapped and offered a view espoused by other Evertonians that there is an unintentionally negative vibe to the posts on this site, which is a shame considering it is otherwise a site of the highest calibre. I?m not one who subscribes to the idea of a "proper Evertonian", but you shouldn?t single handedly dismiss Simon from this site for what was a comment made in the heat of the moment.
We know the likes of Tony Marsh have made similar remarks but they have received warnings. Surely it would only be fair for Simon to be treated on an equal playing field? After all we are all Evertonians. Born not manufactured.
David, I think I?d prefer to discuss the topic of the tread. M?bia is someone whom I?ve only seen glimpses of. If he is the type of player many say he is i.e. a tough tackling midfielder then he gets the thumbs up from me. I think that is exactly what we?re missing and for me was a major weakness throughout the season.
How many times did we have to field a five man midfield in order to compensate for the lack of a strong physical presence in the middle. Speculation still prevails regarding Mutinho but if we have a fully fit Arteta I?m not so sure we need a player like Mutinho. I?d much prefer we went after an outstanding right-sided midfielder as a priority.
How many times did we have to field a five man midfield in order to compensate for the lack of a strong physical presence in the middle. Speculation still prevails regarding Mutinho but if we have a fully fit Arteta I?m not so sure we need a player like Mutinho. I?d much prefer we went after an outstanding right-sided midfielder as a priority.
Tony Marsh... oh my god, you have an interesting take on things, wrong but interesting.
Michael, you take no action against James Boden for the foul and abusive language he directed against Kenwright, then you suspend Simon Dixon for his reaction to it.
Shame on you.
Shame on you.
Oh and Fran, thanks ? you talk a hell of a lot of sense whenever you post, I agree!
First of all before I or Tony Marsh wrote on here Lescott possibly going to City was mentioned on this thread. Did that have anything to do with the question?
I said that Moyes is a great motivator and I really mean that. But I believe his tactics are costly. I don?t care what anybody says about Saha being fucked- if that was the case then take him off at 1-1. Once we were behind it was shit or bust and Moyes made a suicidal decision I believe.
If he didn?t fuck about with his contract over the summer then we may have broke into the top 4. I was one of the people who said Arsenal were there for the taking and they still are but at the start of the season Moyes may as well have not bothered turning up. But, despite this dire start to the season in which we didn?t sign a player till the end of August... and one where 18 goals were conceded in the first 8 league games... and we were knocked out of Europe and the League Cup at first attempt, many of the fans wouldn?t have any criticism levelled at Moyes. And then his biggest fan of all gives him 5 more years.
As for the person who said that Kenwright never said Moyes was a our greatest manager ever. Well, before the build up to the Cup Final, he said that in his lifetime Everton would never have a better manager. And he was alive and well when Catterick and Kendall managed us.
So people say that we would struggle now with either of them two. So I suppose what Alex Ferguson did for Aberdeen was just a fluke. What Matt Busby did for Man United, Brian Clough for Derby and Forest, Revie for Leeds, Nicholson for Spurs and even Shankly for the Kopites were average achievements because today is so much better. Why? Because Sky said so.
As for Kenwright, considering that he promised big name signings and great stadiums, why shouldn?t we moan when he fails us? He has lied to the fans he claims to think the world of. The only way he would ever sell the club is if he still gets to dictate things. He opened his mouth about how great Moyes was before we had even won anything ? he should have kept his mouth well and truly shut.
The problem I have with many fans is not that they think Moyes has done a good job. That does not bother me. It is the reactions if someone so much dare says anything negative about Moyes or Kenwright. How that Simon Dixon can complain about anything when he is calling me names because I had the audacity to be critical of our managers tactics or our chairman's lies is beyond me. The likes of myself, Marsh and Kenrick have been called plenty of names before because we thought our manager or chairman deserved criticism.
And regarding The Europa Cup, well Tony Marsh has said fuck it but that is one occasion I have to disagree with him because staying in the competition breeds confidence and I want a trophy more than anything else. See ? there for all to see ? I just disagreed with Tony Marsh. But for the most part, I totally agree with him and no matter what others think, I do believe he is a real Evertonian because he genuinely does love the club no matter how critical he may be of the men at the top. That Michael Kenrick let?s us do all this is a credit to him. And that is that.
James you state "The problem I have with many fans is not that they think Moyes has done a good job. That does not bother me. It is the reactions if someone so much dare says anything negative about Moyes or Kenwright"
I don?t care about the Kenwright issue, I just don?t get involved with that, as much as a Blue he is, he winds me up no end; however, as I mentioned previously, you constantly repeat the mantra, "Moyes is shit" or "What has he won?" that is what a lot of posters react to, not your questioning of tactics in a game, it is the sweeping generalisation you often type.
I have no doubt that Marshy is a "real Evertonian" but his constant negative views when we are having a poor spell and his frequent vanishing act when we are doing well show him to be of a certain mentality. He cannot praise Moyes when he does something well but by heck he can reel off plenty of posts and articles when we have our off days. It is about balance, I am an optimistic person but I can moan with the best of them when things go wrong, however I will not just sit in wait for a rant, I will get involved in the "feel good" threads also. That is why Marshy gets so many people criticising him and on the other end of the spectrum why Doddy (the lunatic) also gets so much grief.
Michael obviously loves Marsh?s posts as it must cause a mini explosion in the bandwith usage when poeple see his name on an article.
I don?t care about the Kenwright issue, I just don?t get involved with that, as much as a Blue he is, he winds me up no end; however, as I mentioned previously, you constantly repeat the mantra, "Moyes is shit" or "What has he won?" that is what a lot of posters react to, not your questioning of tactics in a game, it is the sweeping generalisation you often type.
I have no doubt that Marshy is a "real Evertonian" but his constant negative views when we are having a poor spell and his frequent vanishing act when we are doing well show him to be of a certain mentality. He cannot praise Moyes when he does something well but by heck he can reel off plenty of posts and articles when we have our off days. It is about balance, I am an optimistic person but I can moan with the best of them when things go wrong, however I will not just sit in wait for a rant, I will get involved in the "feel good" threads also. That is why Marshy gets so many people criticising him and on the other end of the spectrum why Doddy (the lunatic) also gets so much grief.
Michael obviously loves Marsh?s posts as it must cause a mini explosion in the bandwith usage when poeple see his name on an article.
A proper Evertonian is one who can praise the manager, the players, the chairman, the board et al when they do something good, and offer constructive criticism when they mess up.
Unfortunately on this site there are some people who never praise certain elements of the club, prefering to stay quiet when those parties are doing good things.
Equally there are people who seem unable to accept any criticism of the club at all.
DM is not a God, but he is a damn fine manager who is improving all the time, and I don?t see many better options out there right now. Next BK is not Satan in disguise, he does what he thinks is right, just because his idea of right is not the same as yours (or mine), doesn?t make him evil.
Oh, and Michael, if you wish to punish people thats fine, as long as you are consistent. I have read many posts at least as bad as Mr Dixon against the pro Moyes brigade but you don?t suspend them, is this because you agree with them. Kind of like a referee in a match concerning the big 4.
Unfortunately on this site there are some people who never praise certain elements of the club, prefering to stay quiet when those parties are doing good things.
Equally there are people who seem unable to accept any criticism of the club at all.
DM is not a God, but he is a damn fine manager who is improving all the time, and I don?t see many better options out there right now. Next BK is not Satan in disguise, he does what he thinks is right, just because his idea of right is not the same as yours (or mine), doesn?t make him evil.
Oh, and Michael, if you wish to punish people thats fine, as long as you are consistent. I have read many posts at least as bad as Mr Dixon against the pro Moyes brigade but you don?t suspend them, is this because you agree with them. Kind of like a referee in a match concerning the big 4.
Here?s a problem for you thread moaners to think about:
"Moyes is tactically inept"
"Moyes is shit"
Which of these statements comes from the pro-Moyes brigade? And which from the anti-Moyes brigade?
The possibility that Moyes is indeed tactically inept has some merit and might be considered a worthy topic of discussion for some Evertonians.
But instead we get "Moyes is shit" from the likes of Fran Mitchell. It?s false chacterizations like "Moyes is shit" that do my head in. Sort yerself out please.
"Moyes is tactically inept"
"Moyes is shit"
Which of these statements comes from the pro-Moyes brigade? And which from the anti-Moyes brigade?
The possibility that Moyes is indeed tactically inept has some merit and might be considered a worthy topic of discussion for some Evertonians.
But instead we get "Moyes is shit" from the likes of Fran Mitchell. It?s false chacterizations like "Moyes is shit" that do my head in. Sort yerself out please.
And for balance, some have raised this question of abusing the lead custodian of our club, with statements like "Kenwright is a shithouse".
Personally I hate that phrase and would never use it. So perhaps I should show James Boden the yellow card for using it? Thing is, in some circles calling someone a shithouse is okay if that person is deemed to have wronged you. And there is a section of the Everton fanbase that firmly believes Kenwright has wronged them. I?d prefer people not to use the phrase, but I?m not going to ban them for doing so.
I?m sadly okay with using the perhaps equal phrase "Kenwright is a liar" because there is no doubt about that, his lies have been cited many times on here, and denying them is a bit like denying the Holocaust. I wish he wasn?t a liar but what can you do? Oh, yes... live in denial, I suppose!!!
Such strong criticism of Kenwright will continue to irk those who believe he has done well for the club and who are prepared to ignore these little foibles of his, hence the polarization whenever this topic is discussed. I?d plead for all of you to step back and recognize the breadth of different views shown on here for what they are. You are not going to agree with all of them. At the other end of the spectrum, if we all actually agreed on everything, what exactly would we talk about?
I appeal to you all to show both tolerance and restraint. There is no need for name-calling, either of each other or of our chairman, manager, staff, players, etc. Please recognize and accept that being a football fan embraces the fullest range of emotions ? from blind fanatical support to visceral tribal hatred ? and a million shades in between. Keep it civil, and please respect that fact that other Evertonians have different opinions; by coming on here, you agree to share in hearing those opinions, no matter how different they are from your own.
Respect! (Oh damn.. I said it!)
Personally I hate that phrase and would never use it. So perhaps I should show James Boden the yellow card for using it? Thing is, in some circles calling someone a shithouse is okay if that person is deemed to have wronged you. And there is a section of the Everton fanbase that firmly believes Kenwright has wronged them. I?d prefer people not to use the phrase, but I?m not going to ban them for doing so.
I?m sadly okay with using the perhaps equal phrase "Kenwright is a liar" because there is no doubt about that, his lies have been cited many times on here, and denying them is a bit like denying the Holocaust. I wish he wasn?t a liar but what can you do? Oh, yes... live in denial, I suppose!!!
Such strong criticism of Kenwright will continue to irk those who believe he has done well for the club and who are prepared to ignore these little foibles of his, hence the polarization whenever this topic is discussed. I?d plead for all of you to step back and recognize the breadth of different views shown on here for what they are. You are not going to agree with all of them. At the other end of the spectrum, if we all actually agreed on everything, what exactly would we talk about?
I appeal to you all to show both tolerance and restraint. There is no need for name-calling, either of each other or of our chairman, manager, staff, players, etc. Please recognize and accept that being a football fan embraces the fullest range of emotions ? from blind fanatical support to visceral tribal hatred ? and a million shades in between. Keep it civil, and please respect that fact that other Evertonians have different opinions; by coming on here, you agree to share in hearing those opinions, no matter how different they are from your own.
Respect! (Oh damn.. I said it!)
Steve Pugh: Very close to the line... Please, just DROP this "proper Evertonian" bullshit. There is no such thing. Do not even attempt to define it because, by doing so, you give the concept itself credence: it has none.
You do not set the rules: we do. There is no requirement for so-called "balance" from individual contributors, who are free to contribute as they wish, provided they abide by our Conditions of Use.
You do not set the rules: we do. There is no requirement for so-called "balance" from individual contributors, who are free to contribute as they wish, provided they abide by our Conditions of Use.
If they always want to be rosy and optimistic, that?s fine... but they must be able to accept that others will take a different view. Similarly, if they want to critique and point to flaws, that?s fine too... in the knowledge that it will provoke the starry-eyed firestorm.
What is not fine is contributors who want tell other contributors what they should be contributing. That is what you are doing and that is not on.
ps: Cite one post where a pro-Moyes person has been so abused, as you claim, and I will take action.
No one will ever claim the Everton crowd has no passion for life and the game. Take a moment to enjoy what we have guys, a top 5 finish two years in a row on nickels. Debate all you want ? it?s healthy. But save the insults for the team across town. Kenrick and TW provide a great service to us, and it?s free.
Any subsequent insults to this post and I will export the entire population of Mississippi to Merseyside.
Any subsequent insults to this post and I will export the entire population of Mississippi to Merseyside.
Just a thought...
We are not allowed to abuse fellow posters because they are fellow Evertonians. This can result in a ban. Last time I checked Kenwright was a fellow Evertonian. Explanation?
We are not allowed to abuse fellow posters because they are fellow Evertonians. This can result in a ban. Last time I checked Kenwright was a fellow Evertonian. Explanation?
I would like to apologise to James for the remark I made. I would also like to thank Ric Wallace for his excellent post. He got across the point I was trying make. Also I apologise to Michael Kenrick and I would like to congratulate him on the TW. It's a superb site.
I accept the apology Simon. I understand that wasn?t intended in that matter, even if you did think I was wrong for having similar views for Marsh. As for an apology to Kenwright... well, considering I feel lied to and there are several reasons too, by someone who supposedly cares for his fans, then I will not apologise. But that is just me.
James Boden. Saying in his lifetime Everton would never have a better manager is totally different from saying Moyes is the greatest manager of all time.
?Would never have a better manager" is future tense, meaning that in the rest of Kenwright?s lifetime he is unlikely to see a better manager. It doesn?t include anything that has gone before.
;-)
Its gonna be a long summer lads, let's bask in the satisfaction of what was a memorable season for at least another week, like.
Its gonna be a long summer lads, let's bask in the satisfaction of what was a memorable season for at least another week, like.
Tony Marsh said "PLEASE learn form what?s gone before and stop the Bullshit FM game. It is starting to annoy me. "
Mike Kenrick said "What is not fine is contributors who want tell other contributors what they should be contributing."
I love the site Michael but think you are definitly stricter with the rules with the so called pro Moyes brigade than you are with the anti-Moyes.
Mike Kenrick said "What is not fine is contributors who want tell other contributors what they should be contributing."
I love the site Michael but think you are definitly stricter with the rules with the so called pro Moyes brigade than you are with the anti-Moyes.
For what it's worth, I can see both sides of the argument and can see that there are sensationalist comments from both sides but, if you are going to start warning people, it should be fair on both sides.
I don?t know if this Tony Marsh is for real, it?s hard to believe that he is, but maybe.
However, ?Kenwright is a fraudster? is the sort of thing that should end him in court, and I?m just wondering if Michael and Lyndon have considered their editorial position if obviously defamatory statements are hosted on this site?
We?re all entitled to our opinions but if we express them then we are subject to the laws of the land.
However, ?Kenwright is a fraudster? is the sort of thing that should end him in court, and I?m just wondering if Michael and Lyndon have considered their editorial position if obviously defamatory statements are hosted on this site?
We?re all entitled to our opinions but if we express them then we are subject to the laws of the land.
Jaysus!!! What a thread.
No one has really come back at Fran saying who could Everton get right now, that would come, that we could afford and who would improve us??? Lots of Moyes bashers out there so why was there not a flood of answers? Good question, Fran.
Moyes is not going, he will be here next season, does everyone agree with that? Then let's now shut the fuck up and get on with it. With our own home grown and two good young lads on the way we are on the right track.
No one has really come back at Fran saying who could Everton get right now, that would come, that we could afford and who would improve us??? Lots of Moyes bashers out there so why was there not a flood of answers? Good question, Fran.
Moyes is not going, he will be here next season, does everyone agree with that? Then let's now shut the fuck up and get on with it. With our own home grown and two good young lads on the way we are on the right track.
Michael. If you are banning people for going to far in their posts why let Tony Marsh call BK a "fraudster". What proof is there? He may be a good or bad Chairman, but fraudster is, to me, over the top.
Robert Davis, firstly, no-one is banned for "going too far", whatever that means. The reasons are quite specific, as stated already.
As for the ?fraudster" issue, James Boden asked, As for Kenwright, considering that he promised big name signings and great stadiums, why shouldn?t we moan when he fails us? ? I think that?s the problem here.
No-one has countered that Kenwright is not a liar. Is "fraudster" different? Better? Worse? Sounds like a question of semantics to me... hardly a banning issue, sorry.
It is interesting that when certain statements were made on this and other websites about the previous CEO, the Club?s Head of Communications came down on us in double-quick time, demanding their removal.
As I?m sure you know, plenty of statements similar to the one you cite have been made about the Chairman but have not caused the same reaction. What more is there to say?
As for the ?fraudster" issue, James Boden asked, As for Kenwright, considering that he promised big name signings and great stadiums, why shouldn?t we moan when he fails us? ? I think that?s the problem here.
No-one has countered that Kenwright is not a liar. Is "fraudster" different? Better? Worse? Sounds like a question of semantics to me... hardly a banning issue, sorry.
It is interesting that when certain statements were made on this and other websites about the previous CEO, the Club?s Head of Communications came down on us in double-quick time, demanding their removal.
As I?m sure you know, plenty of statements similar to the one you cite have been made about the Chairman but have not caused the same reaction. What more is there to say?
Why bother discussing it? You seem to have made your mind up that BK is the devil already. Shall we hope and pray that a couple of yanks buy his shares or maybe a crooked ex-Thai prime minister takes us over, or even some Russian mafia cartel.
The world is full of bullshitters but I would rather have an Evertonian bullshitter at the helm than somebody who would sell us out and leave us in a bigger financial crisis than you could possibly imagine.
The world is full of bullshitters but I would rather have an Evertonian bullshitter at the helm than somebody who would sell us out and leave us in a bigger financial crisis than you could possibly imagine.
It never ceases to amaze me how much bitterness individuals can store up inside them?
I am certainly not a BK groupie and everyone winces at times when you hear or see him on, or in the media, but, he ain?t the devil incarnate that some contributors make him out to be.
Now if you you want to find an example of not one but TWO shysters, just look across the park and see Laurel and Hardy dragging a club further and further into debt.
Not only that, they are repaying the money they borrowed from RBS from within the coffers of their own club! Classic, absolute classic.
Instead we get the same old regulars repeating soundbites from four or five years ago, give us all a break will you and count your blessings you weren?t born a red.
I am certainly not a BK groupie and everyone winces at times when you hear or see him on, or in the media, but, he ain?t the devil incarnate that some contributors make him out to be.
Now if you you want to find an example of not one but TWO shysters, just look across the park and see Laurel and Hardy dragging a club further and further into debt.
Not only that, they are repaying the money they borrowed from RBS from within the coffers of their own club! Classic, absolute classic.
Instead we get the same old regulars repeating soundbites from four or five years ago, give us all a break will you and count your blessings you weren?t born a red.
Robert Davis, I wrote the thread heading in response to your post. I don't think there can be any doubt about BK EARNING the title "Bullshit Billy".
I have no doubt he is a Blue like the rest of us and does have some endearing qualities (How else could he have got rich mugs involved in EFC?) but I personally cannot stand liars and of that there is no doubt. Give me a Tony Marsh anytime who says what he feels and feels what he says.
IMHO ? and I know there are many who disagree with me ? Moyes has succeeded despite Kenwright not because of him. What other chairman would change the Articles of Association of the club so that the small shareholders (and there are many of them) could no longer get their opinion across in public?
What other man would backstab his friend and investor (Paul Gregg) by manipulative stories in the media to blacken his character whilst untruly claiming to have £15 million investment (Fortress Sports Fund) "Going in the bank in the morning"?
What sort of man tells the council for 2 years that he has the money "ring-fenced" for the Kings Dock development and then cannot even come out and tell the truth that at the last minute HE tried to borrow the money off Paul Gregg, who was willing, if BK gave some of his shares as security, and that BK would not do this.
These actions are unforgivable by a Blue but by a Chairman they are appalling. And now, because of our relative success, the man is a God in some people?s eyes.
I just don't understand.
I have no doubt he is a Blue like the rest of us and does have some endearing qualities (How else could he have got rich mugs involved in EFC?) but I personally cannot stand liars and of that there is no doubt. Give me a Tony Marsh anytime who says what he feels and feels what he says.
IMHO ? and I know there are many who disagree with me ? Moyes has succeeded despite Kenwright not because of him. What other chairman would change the Articles of Association of the club so that the small shareholders (and there are many of them) could no longer get their opinion across in public?
What other man would backstab his friend and investor (Paul Gregg) by manipulative stories in the media to blacken his character whilst untruly claiming to have £15 million investment (Fortress Sports Fund) "Going in the bank in the morning"?
What sort of man tells the council for 2 years that he has the money "ring-fenced" for the Kings Dock development and then cannot even come out and tell the truth that at the last minute HE tried to borrow the money off Paul Gregg, who was willing, if BK gave some of his shares as security, and that BK would not do this.
These actions are unforgivable by a Blue but by a Chairman they are appalling. And now, because of our relative success, the man is a God in some people?s eyes.
I just don't understand.
And what division would we be playing in without David Moyes? We were going down hill fast, surly we're getting better?
"Would so many of our fans be so quick to forgive Moyes for his continued inclusion of Hibbert and Osman if we where in a relegation battle? The answer is no, he would be crucified on a weekly basis."
Are we in a relagation battle? No! So the point in saying this is.....? Just a bit confused in your thinking.
Are we in a relagation battle? No! So the point in saying this is.....? Just a bit confused in your thinking.
Re the use of ?shithouse? ? wouldn?t use it myself (unless of course the person I?m talking about IS a shithouse).
Can we please have a thread just for Mr Marsh and Mr Boden so they can slag off Moyes, the club, other Evertonians, the ground, Kirkby, Kenwright and anything else that takes their fancy on their own.
The rest of us can appreciate we as a club are moving in the right direction. The team is unrecognisable and almost the complete opposite of the slow, aged, talentless bunch we had when Moyes took over.
The rest of us can appreciate we as a club are moving in the right direction. The team is unrecognisable and almost the complete opposite of the slow, aged, talentless bunch we had when Moyes took over.
Ok he has strengthened our team in every area except the right hand side, is that because Moyes thinks Hibbo and Ossie are world class? No, it's because other areas were far more desperate and those 2 guys will do a job and I think will be very good squad players in the future.
If we finish top 4 next season and then have a good champs league run, say to the quarter finals some will still be here saying Moyes is shite he still hasn?t won anything.
These things don?t happen overnight. Even with billions to spend I dont think Man City will finish Top 4 next year, I think we?ve got more chance we just need to stick together and keep this fantastic club of ours moving in the right direction.
If we keep improving as we have over the last couple of years, trophies will come ? we just have to keep believing.
So, Tony and James, from me and many others ? as the old saying goes ? if you don?t have anything good to say, don?t say anything!
Michael K - I know that I shouldn’t rise to Tony Marsh and his groupies and I know that doing so gets me into trouble with you but nevertheless, I think that there is a clear distinction between "liar" and "fraudster". and for you to prented otherwise is shameful.
To be a liar is not neccesarily a criminal act or offence but to commit a fraud is. As such, to assert that Bill K is a fraudster crosses the line for me.
Do you or the posters in question have any evidence that Bill K has commited fraud? If so, have you presented it to the authorities and can you enlighten us all as to what the fraud was and what action the authorities have or will take against Mr Kenwright for this fraud? If he is a fraudster then I’m also surprised that he reamins a company direcotr as it is not possible for a convicted criminal to hold the position.
Finally, you have said that in some circles it is ok to call somone a shithouse if you think they have wronged you. Therefore, will you accpet it if other contributiors refer to Mr Marsh and his kabaal with this phrase going forward if they feel wronged by them?
Consistency is all I ask for- something which if Mr Moyes had found for us at home this year would have seen us finish top 4!
To be a liar is not neccesarily a criminal act or offence but to commit a fraud is. As such, to assert that Bill K is a fraudster crosses the line for me.
Do you or the posters in question have any evidence that Bill K has commited fraud? If so, have you presented it to the authorities and can you enlighten us all as to what the fraud was and what action the authorities have or will take against Mr Kenwright for this fraud? If he is a fraudster then I’m also surprised that he reamins a company direcotr as it is not possible for a convicted criminal to hold the position.
Finally, you have said that in some circles it is ok to call somone a shithouse if you think they have wronged you. Therefore, will you accpet it if other contributiors refer to Mr Marsh and his kabaal with this phrase going forward if they feel wronged by them?
Consistency is all I ask for- something which if Mr Moyes had found for us at home this year would have seen us finish top 4!
Jay - A question: why did you choose NOW to launch this whole ’BK is a liar’ thing again? Why?
There is nothing in your original post that I haven’t read you posting on here a hundred times. It’s all been gone through. Most of your examples are now pretty old, most indeed five years plus. If you confined yourself to say the past two years, you’d hardly have a post at all. Why are we doing this again?
Some think BK is the devil, some don’t. Personally (but I’ve also posted this at least a dozen times before) I think that Bill says stupid things sometimes to please people, or says ’untrue’ things for quite sensible reasons (eg the Rooney comment to push his price up if he goes). I think that he has created stability at the club, and that has been a big part of our recent success. But let me stop there.
Why are we doing all this again Jay? Please tell me.
There is nothing in your original post that I haven’t read you posting on here a hundred times. It’s all been gone through. Most of your examples are now pretty old, most indeed five years plus. If you confined yourself to say the past two years, you’d hardly have a post at all. Why are we doing this again?
Some think BK is the devil, some don’t. Personally (but I’ve also posted this at least a dozen times before) I think that Bill says stupid things sometimes to please people, or says ’untrue’ things for quite sensible reasons (eg the Rooney comment to push his price up if he goes). I think that he has created stability at the club, and that has been a big part of our recent success. But let me stop there.
Why are we doing all this again Jay? Please tell me.
By the way Michael, on all this ’abuse of fellow posters’ stuff - firstly, I don’t get too worried about it, it’s all part of the free speech on this great site.
But there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that you are quicker to come to the defence of the anti Moyes / Kenwright people than the other side. I have been strongly abused on many occasions over Kirkby and Kenwright (on many occasions with people repeatedly ascribing to me views that I just don’t hold), and you have never once come to my defence. Although I do remembered being censured myself on a couple of occasions.
I’m fine about it, and I think I can take care of myself. But I don’t perceive you as even-handed because I don’t think you are. And actually I’m not even bothered about that. You started and run this fabulous site, and you have your own views. That’s fine. You don’t generally stop me or others saying what we want, so no problem. But you are not neutral, so I’m not sure why you pretend you are.
But there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that you are quicker to come to the defence of the anti Moyes / Kenwright people than the other side. I have been strongly abused on many occasions over Kirkby and Kenwright (on many occasions with people repeatedly ascribing to me views that I just don’t hold), and you have never once come to my defence. Although I do remembered being censured myself on a couple of occasions.
I’m fine about it, and I think I can take care of myself. But I don’t perceive you as even-handed because I don’t think you are. And actually I’m not even bothered about that. You started and run this fabulous site, and you have your own views. That’s fine. You don’t generally stop me or others saying what we want, so no problem. But you are not neutral, so I’m not sure why you pretend you are.
Finally! Kenwright is an easier target, although you really would think that some people would have a bit of perspective given the ownership of other clubs (Newcastle, Liverpool, Man Utd, W Ham, Portsmouth, Fulham etc. etc.) - but there we go.
But the strength and virulence of the Moyes criticism is simply silly. Of course he makes mistakes, he is a young manager, and also as it happens a human being. We should obviously have a good debate about these mistakes, and in no way should give him a free pass.
But he has managed a team which has been clearly ’best of the rest’ for the last two years, on less resources than at least half a dozen teams below us. He has been voted Manager of the Year by his fellow managers a record three times. He is a fantastic motivator who has attracted and retained some fine players. And he is transparently one of the most honest and decent men in football.
The bitter and angry tone of the criticism of Moyes says much more about the people who make it than it does about Evertpn’s current manager.
Think for just one moment guys. Imagine a supporter of another club wandering onto this site by accident and finding people saying that Kenwright is a crook and Moyes is shit. They would think some people had taken leave of their senses.
But the strength and virulence of the Moyes criticism is simply silly. Of course he makes mistakes, he is a young manager, and also as it happens a human being. We should obviously have a good debate about these mistakes, and in no way should give him a free pass.
But he has managed a team which has been clearly ’best of the rest’ for the last two years, on less resources than at least half a dozen teams below us. He has been voted Manager of the Year by his fellow managers a record three times. He is a fantastic motivator who has attracted and retained some fine players. And he is transparently one of the most honest and decent men in football.
The bitter and angry tone of the criticism of Moyes says much more about the people who make it than it does about Evertpn’s current manager.
Think for just one moment guys. Imagine a supporter of another club wandering onto this site by accident and finding people saying that Kenwright is a crook and Moyes is shit. They would think some people had taken leave of their senses.
Michael Kenrick said: "As I?m sure you know, plenty of statements similar to the one you cite have been made about the Chairman but have not caused the same reaction. What more is there to say?"
I’ll tell you what more there is to say.
Why do you think Everton came down on you like a ton of bricks when people abused the former CEO? Because the former CEO was an unpleasant, ruthless man who didn’t like people giving him a hard time - anywhere.
Why do you think it doesn’t happen when people abuse Kenwright? Because Kenwright is a good, honourable man who would never cause trouble in the Everton family just to protect his reputation - his feelings for Everton are too strong for that.
I’m afraid Michael’s editorial comments in this thread are the last straw for me. Glorious website though this is, I will not be returning. Michael repeatedly bans and "yellow cards" decent people on here who justifiably feel a need to stand up to the bile that’s thrown around - and he simply encourages the likes of Marsh and Boden to say whatever they like. It’s become ludicrous and, with real regret, I’ll be hearing from my fello Evertonians elsewhere from now on.
Just in case MK cares, I’ll say this: I, like thousands of others, love the idea of good, honest debate. What we get here is simply spiteful. When I see statements from Boden like "Moyes is tactically inept and Kenwright is a lying gobshite" - and the editor instead bans somebody from the site who stands up for two decent men - I know it’s time to move on!
I’ll tell you what more there is to say.
Why do you think Everton came down on you like a ton of bricks when people abused the former CEO? Because the former CEO was an unpleasant, ruthless man who didn’t like people giving him a hard time - anywhere.
Why do you think it doesn’t happen when people abuse Kenwright? Because Kenwright is a good, honourable man who would never cause trouble in the Everton family just to protect his reputation - his feelings for Everton are too strong for that.
I’m afraid Michael’s editorial comments in this thread are the last straw for me. Glorious website though this is, I will not be returning. Michael repeatedly bans and "yellow cards" decent people on here who justifiably feel a need to stand up to the bile that’s thrown around - and he simply encourages the likes of Marsh and Boden to say whatever they like. It’s become ludicrous and, with real regret, I’ll be hearing from my fello Evertonians elsewhere from now on.
Just in case MK cares, I’ll say this: I, like thousands of others, love the idea of good, honest debate. What we get here is simply spiteful. When I see statements from Boden like "Moyes is tactically inept and Kenwright is a lying gobshite" - and the editor instead bans somebody from the site who stands up for two decent men - I know it’s time to move on!
I read back again and Tony, I must come back to you on one thing. ’Sussed out’ in the Final? Do you have any perspective at all?
We were beaten by the most expensively assembled team the world has ever seen, with possibly the best manager in the world. But for some odd refereeing decisions, they might well have been champions of Europe. They certainly outplayed the much praised eventual champions.
We lost by the odd goal to them, despite being without our best three players, and gave up less chances to them than in their recent matches with Liverpool, Arsenal and Barcelona.
On the Hibbert / Osman thing: it is still not at all clear that any of the alternatives we actually had were any better. Hibbert has on a number of occasions completely stifled even Ronaldo, so it is actually quite surprising that he was so destroyed by Malouda (and he was very unlucky with the card).
You talk as if it is some sort of disgrace, obviously showing that the manager is a moron, when we don’t beat a virtually full strength team with vastly greater resources than ours. That’s just stupid.
The biggest tactical mistake made in the week of the Cup Final was Ferguson’s midfield against Barcelona. Do you think he’s shit and should go?
We were beaten by the most expensively assembled team the world has ever seen, with possibly the best manager in the world. But for some odd refereeing decisions, they might well have been champions of Europe. They certainly outplayed the much praised eventual champions.
We lost by the odd goal to them, despite being without our best three players, and gave up less chances to them than in their recent matches with Liverpool, Arsenal and Barcelona.
On the Hibbert / Osman thing: it is still not at all clear that any of the alternatives we actually had were any better. Hibbert has on a number of occasions completely stifled even Ronaldo, so it is actually quite surprising that he was so destroyed by Malouda (and he was very unlucky with the card).
You talk as if it is some sort of disgrace, obviously showing that the manager is a moron, when we don’t beat a virtually full strength team with vastly greater resources than ours. That’s just stupid.
The biggest tactical mistake made in the week of the Cup Final was Ferguson’s midfield against Barcelona. Do you think he’s shit and should go?
I’m with Brian... I’ve had enough of the drivel that is spouted on here and the way it is seemingly encouraged by the editorial team. It just depresses me.
Can anyone point me in the direction of a more upbeat website where I can bury my head in the sand and maybe have the odd FM style debate without getting slagged off?!
Can anyone point me in the direction of a more upbeat website where I can bury my head in the sand and maybe have the odd FM style debate without getting slagged off?!
FREE SIMON DIXON!!!
To be honest, he’ll be much better off not coming on here anyway. In what has been our best season in 14 years, I’m disappointed the consistent coverage this site gives to such negativity.
I’m with Brian and Jimmy, I’m out of here. Don’t forget to turn the lights out Michael!
To be honest, he’ll be much better off not coming on here anyway. In what has been our best season in 14 years, I’m disappointed the consistent coverage this site gives to such negativity.
I’m with Brian and Jimmy, I’m out of here. Don’t forget to turn the lights out Michael!
James, I think almost everything you wrote was utter rubbish, but perhaps I realised that you simply don?t know much about football when you said "Arsenal are there for the taking". Seriously, do you watch football matches?
This is a team featuring Fabregas, Walcott, Arshavin, van Persie, Eduardo, Clichy - none of whom we would have a hope in hell of being able to buy or pay their wages. They are also managed by one of the most experienced and very finest managers of the past twenty years of world football.
But they are just ?there for the taking?.... !!!
We really are not living two decades ago, and we have no divine right to win any prize going. Marsh and Boden - why don?t you rejoin us in the real world? The one in which coming fifth is actually an achievement (ask Newcastle, Spurs and indeed Villa); and in which we are not (unfortunately) about to easily roll over Arsenal one week and Chelsea the next.
This is a team featuring Fabregas, Walcott, Arshavin, van Persie, Eduardo, Clichy - none of whom we would have a hope in hell of being able to buy or pay their wages. They are also managed by one of the most experienced and very finest managers of the past twenty years of world football.
But they are just ?there for the taking?.... !!!
We really are not living two decades ago, and we have no divine right to win any prize going. Marsh and Boden - why don?t you rejoin us in the real world? The one in which coming fifth is actually an achievement (ask Newcastle, Spurs and indeed Villa); and in which we are not (unfortunately) about to easily roll over Arsenal one week and Chelsea the next.
It doesn’t take long does it. I haven’t finished reflecting on an extraordinarily good season under a variety of challenging circumstances and in they wade.
I presume that, had we won the cup, such tediously repetitive drones would not have been aired quite yet. But we lost that one game against a rather good team and the tsunami of misery cometh. What on earth has Kenwright done this time?
Moyes makes errors, Kenwright makes errors, Alex Ferguson makes errors, Benitex makes errors, Gilletee & Hicks make errors, Abramovic makes errors, I make errors, you all make errors. Maybe Jesus or Nelson Mandela didn’t. Should we appoint one of them as chairman?
Which chairman does Messrs Harris & Marsh think we should be aspiring to? Which club do they think we should be aspiring to based on whatever they think is relevant, league pos, cup success, stability, whatever? Instead of a million darts, how about an answer?
Have we not done this to death a million times with exactly the same words every single time? Does it get any more enlightening or helpful? Of course not.
Michael K - your own leanings in this area lead to an unacceptable imbalance in the frequency & tone of your interventions. Personally I think you should either scrap such threads all together (perhaps for a short while, just to consider our best domestic season for 2 decades), or let anything go. This should be 50/50 or zero.
Fact is, those with views such as my own (and I won’t extend the approbrium by re-stating them AGAIN here) are bored to bollocks having to encounter such crap. Jay Harris’ article is, frankly, the single worst post I think you have ever had. It is lazy, unstructured, ill-founded, irrelevant, unnecessary and utterly out of context to the current state of club & team.
The fact that some contributors view such intones (and the occasional one from Tony M) as overtly abrasive and confrontational for the sole purpose of provocation is not surprising. The fact that you shout down such analysis, yet publish such a lazy & provocative bile dump for a post in the first place does you no credit.
Just my opinion of course, which I believe is the raison d’etre of TW. No offence intended to anyone.
I presume that, had we won the cup, such tediously repetitive drones would not have been aired quite yet. But we lost that one game against a rather good team and the tsunami of misery cometh. What on earth has Kenwright done this time?
Moyes makes errors, Kenwright makes errors, Alex Ferguson makes errors, Benitex makes errors, Gilletee & Hicks make errors, Abramovic makes errors, I make errors, you all make errors. Maybe Jesus or Nelson Mandela didn’t. Should we appoint one of them as chairman?
Which chairman does Messrs Harris & Marsh think we should be aspiring to? Which club do they think we should be aspiring to based on whatever they think is relevant, league pos, cup success, stability, whatever? Instead of a million darts, how about an answer?
Have we not done this to death a million times with exactly the same words every single time? Does it get any more enlightening or helpful? Of course not.
Michael K - your own leanings in this area lead to an unacceptable imbalance in the frequency & tone of your interventions. Personally I think you should either scrap such threads all together (perhaps for a short while, just to consider our best domestic season for 2 decades), or let anything go. This should be 50/50 or zero.
Fact is, those with views such as my own (and I won’t extend the approbrium by re-stating them AGAIN here) are bored to bollocks having to encounter such crap. Jay Harris’ article is, frankly, the single worst post I think you have ever had. It is lazy, unstructured, ill-founded, irrelevant, unnecessary and utterly out of context to the current state of club & team.
The fact that some contributors view such intones (and the occasional one from Tony M) as overtly abrasive and confrontational for the sole purpose of provocation is not surprising. The fact that you shout down such analysis, yet publish such a lazy & provocative bile dump for a post in the first place does you no credit.
Just my opinion of course, which I believe is the raison d’etre of TW. No offence intended to anyone.
Jay, because I am tired of reading the same thing on Toffeeweb over and over again, let?s look at the things you posted.
Let me first make a general point. It may be that you live Jay in some nice Boy Scout world in which people always tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, even when they are in the public eye, and when telling the truth could damage the organisation they represent. In the real world ? if you do indeed ever live in it ? you would realise that constant truth telling is not exactly the norm. If you wish to set up a monastic community of truth tellers, withdrawn from the world, I would be happy to send you a supporting donation.
But let?s take your examples one by one.
"The money for Kings Dock is ringfenced" VERY SENSIBLE THING TO SAY. BK DOESN?T KNOW WHETHER WE ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO RAISE THE MONEY - BUT IT WOULD CERTAINLY NOT BE IN THE INTERESTS OF EFC FOR HIM TO SAY THIS OUT LOUD AND SINK ANY POTENTIAL DEAL.
"The cheque will be in the bank in the morning" THIS CERTAINLY PUZZLES ME! IT?S POSSIBLE BK WAS TRYING TO EXERT PRESSURE TO GET THE PAYMENT. OR IT?S POSSIBLE HE WAS RATHER FOOLISHLY SAVING FACE. OR IT WAS ALL PART OF SOME BUSINESS SHENANNIGANS THAT WE DON?T ACTUALLY KNOW THE FULL STORY ABOUT.
"I would not sell Rooney for £50 million" VERY SENSIBLE COMMENT INDEED, THE SORT OF THING SAID BY FOOTBALL OWNERS AND MANAGERS EVERY DAY. IT?S CALLED MAXIMISING THE PRICE OF ONE OF YOUR ASSETS.
"I have been looking for investment 24/7" A SILLY LUVVY EXAGERRATION, BUT COULD WELL BE TRUE THAT BK HAS BEEN LOOKING FOR THE RIGHT TYPE OF INVESTMENT. HE ACTUALLY DID SECURE SOME OF IT THROUGH SOME OF HIS PALS. IT BROUGHT US A NUMBER OF RATHER GOOD PLAYERS.
"The council would not give us planning permission for Stanley Park" MAYBE THEY WOULDN?T WHEN WE ASKED? AFTER ALL, IT IS CLEARLY OF VERY DOUBTFUL LEGALITY THAT LFC ARE PLANNING TO BUILD ON IT.
"I want to sell the club to a billionaire" THIS IS PROBABLY TRUE, SO NOT SURE WHAT IT IS DOING IN THIS LIST AT ALL. HE DIDN?T SAY "any billionaire".
"The directors of EFC do not want to sell their shares" THAT WAS NOT TRUE AND WAS SAID AS A NECESSARY PART OF THE KIRKBY SUBMISSION. HARDLY A BIG DEAL EVERYONE KNOWS WHY THEY HAD TO SAY IT..
"I watch videos of the players we are about to buy and I go Wow!" WHAT?S WRONG WITH THIS ONE? WE DO BUY PLAYERS, AND MAYBE BILL WATCHES VIDEOS.
"Watch this space" FELLAINI.
So, despite Jay?s investing most of his life to prove that BK is a despicable liar ? obviously he isn?t. The examples he gives are almost all not lies, or explainable as in the likely best interest of Everton Football Club. And they are all pretty old.
If you want a real lie which is causing dreadful damage to a club just near us, try Gillet and Hicks, "We are not doing a Glaser". Well, they have, loading hundreds of millions of crippling debt on the LFC balancesheet.
Read The Guardian?s current assessment of the financial performance of Premier Leadge clubs. We are one of the most financially sound and least indebted clubs in the League ? surprising, given that we apparently have a selfish criminal for an owner (although he doesn?t even take any money as Chairman, many others do)..
Just give up boys, the facts just aren?t there. Let there be strong and appropriate criticism Kenwright and Moyes when merited (I think they are utter fools if we sign Owen, so there?s me giving it a go). But they really aren?t examples of criminality and ineptitude.
Let me first make a general point. It may be that you live Jay in some nice Boy Scout world in which people always tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, even when they are in the public eye, and when telling the truth could damage the organisation they represent. In the real world ? if you do indeed ever live in it ? you would realise that constant truth telling is not exactly the norm. If you wish to set up a monastic community of truth tellers, withdrawn from the world, I would be happy to send you a supporting donation.
But let?s take your examples one by one.
"The money for Kings Dock is ringfenced" VERY SENSIBLE THING TO SAY. BK DOESN?T KNOW WHETHER WE ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO RAISE THE MONEY - BUT IT WOULD CERTAINLY NOT BE IN THE INTERESTS OF EFC FOR HIM TO SAY THIS OUT LOUD AND SINK ANY POTENTIAL DEAL.
"The cheque will be in the bank in the morning" THIS CERTAINLY PUZZLES ME! IT?S POSSIBLE BK WAS TRYING TO EXERT PRESSURE TO GET THE PAYMENT. OR IT?S POSSIBLE HE WAS RATHER FOOLISHLY SAVING FACE. OR IT WAS ALL PART OF SOME BUSINESS SHENANNIGANS THAT WE DON?T ACTUALLY KNOW THE FULL STORY ABOUT.
"I would not sell Rooney for £50 million" VERY SENSIBLE COMMENT INDEED, THE SORT OF THING SAID BY FOOTBALL OWNERS AND MANAGERS EVERY DAY. IT?S CALLED MAXIMISING THE PRICE OF ONE OF YOUR ASSETS.
"I have been looking for investment 24/7" A SILLY LUVVY EXAGERRATION, BUT COULD WELL BE TRUE THAT BK HAS BEEN LOOKING FOR THE RIGHT TYPE OF INVESTMENT. HE ACTUALLY DID SECURE SOME OF IT THROUGH SOME OF HIS PALS. IT BROUGHT US A NUMBER OF RATHER GOOD PLAYERS.
"The council would not give us planning permission for Stanley Park" MAYBE THEY WOULDN?T WHEN WE ASKED? AFTER ALL, IT IS CLEARLY OF VERY DOUBTFUL LEGALITY THAT LFC ARE PLANNING TO BUILD ON IT.
"I want to sell the club to a billionaire" THIS IS PROBABLY TRUE, SO NOT SURE WHAT IT IS DOING IN THIS LIST AT ALL. HE DIDN?T SAY "any billionaire".
"The directors of EFC do not want to sell their shares" THAT WAS NOT TRUE AND WAS SAID AS A NECESSARY PART OF THE KIRKBY SUBMISSION. HARDLY A BIG DEAL EVERYONE KNOWS WHY THEY HAD TO SAY IT..
"I watch videos of the players we are about to buy and I go Wow!" WHAT?S WRONG WITH THIS ONE? WE DO BUY PLAYERS, AND MAYBE BILL WATCHES VIDEOS.
"Watch this space" FELLAINI.
So, despite Jay?s investing most of his life to prove that BK is a despicable liar ? obviously he isn?t. The examples he gives are almost all not lies, or explainable as in the likely best interest of Everton Football Club. And they are all pretty old.
If you want a real lie which is causing dreadful damage to a club just near us, try Gillet and Hicks, "We are not doing a Glaser". Well, they have, loading hundreds of millions of crippling debt on the LFC balancesheet.
Read The Guardian?s current assessment of the financial performance of Premier Leadge clubs. We are one of the most financially sound and least indebted clubs in the League ? surprising, given that we apparently have a selfish criminal for an owner (although he doesn?t even take any money as Chairman, many others do)..
Just give up boys, the facts just aren?t there. Let there be strong and appropriate criticism Kenwright and Moyes when merited (I think they are utter fools if we sign Owen, so there?s me giving it a go). But they really aren?t examples of criminality and ineptitude.
Is David Moyes beyond criticism? It seems that many posters on this site believe so. He has made us best of the rest and deserves credit for that. Under him we have played some awful, cautious, fearful football and why should any Evertonian be attacked for saying so?
Jimmy Rimmer- get yerself over to bluekipper mate.
Much more fun than reading some of these pathetic comments.
Much more fun than reading some of these pathetic comments.
If BK has really been searching for investment 24/7, why have Sunderland, Portsmouth and Man Cty managed to secured it, and we havent been close? None of these clubs have any history, prestige etc. Much as I like BK as an Evertonian, it just doesn't stack with reality. He's not letting go of "his toy".
His friends call him Billy Liar. Says it all!
He could've raised the money for the Kings Dock when he raised the £30m from the Bear Stearns securitisation that stopped us going bust but choose not to. If he was planning to get the money from Gregg is unclear but the fact is he cocked up and then lied about it. Bullshit Bill to his non-friends.
To me, he?ll always be the guy that was too incompetent to get something great for the club done.
He could've raised the money for the Kings Dock when he raised the £30m from the Bear Stearns securitisation that stopped us going bust but choose not to. If he was planning to get the money from Gregg is unclear but the fact is he cocked up and then lied about it. Bullshit Bill to his non-friends.
To me, he?ll always be the guy that was too incompetent to get something great for the club done.
I want Peter Johnson back, he was a saint, that?s what we need back at the helm again. While we?re at it, I want to move back to Bellefield and sell that atrocity that is Finch Farm. Also I want to live in a perfect world where we have an abundance of funds for everything... actually, I can?t be bothered to finish this, I?m gonna go and buy my Man City top.
Seriously, I understand both viewpoints, but i?m just not going to participate in the same, endless arguments with the same opinions regurgitated again and again. After a while it just becomes a little boring.
Seriously, I understand both viewpoints, but i?m just not going to participate in the same, endless arguments with the same opinions regurgitated again and again. After a while it just becomes a little boring.
Alan K - You’re spot on with your analysis.
I can’t understand why the editor does this - it certainly doesn’t add to the crediblity of this site. Mention Toffeeweb to many Evertonians and you’ll get the inevitable shake of the head and comments about ’doom and gloom’ ’miserable bastards’ and that ’nut case gobshite Tony Marsh...’
If it was a debate - it would be fine... but it isn’t. It’s the editor giving us his version by proxy and censoring or marginalising any opinion he doesn’t happen to agree with.
It’s a pity - this has the potential to be such a good site - as it is, it’s a perfect example of how a shit editor can fuck up the best of publications... and is the reason why so many very good writers don’t last very long on here and move on to other stuff and sites.
I can’t understand why the editor does this - it certainly doesn’t add to the crediblity of this site. Mention Toffeeweb to many Evertonians and you’ll get the inevitable shake of the head and comments about ’doom and gloom’ ’miserable bastards’ and that ’nut case gobshite Tony Marsh...’
If it was a debate - it would be fine... but it isn’t. It’s the editor giving us his version by proxy and censoring or marginalising any opinion he doesn’t happen to agree with.
It’s a pity - this has the potential to be such a good site - as it is, it’s a perfect example of how a shit editor can fuck up the best of publications... and is the reason why so many very good writers don’t last very long on here and move on to other stuff and sites.
@ Alan Kirwin. Having waded through this thread (becoming thoroughly depressed in doing so) I was determined to make a relevant comment but you said it all.
Reflections on a magnificent season and hope for the next have been tainted by this diatribe of negativity instigated by a truly puerile post from Jay Harris.
It neither stated an opinion or asked a question. It was inane and worthless.
Reflections on a magnificent season and hope for the next have been tainted by this diatribe of negativity instigated by a truly puerile post from Jay Harris.
It neither stated an opinion or asked a question. It was inane and worthless.
Don?t know if this will get posted as I was banned by an impartial editor early season for just suggesting we should wait a while before slagging Moyes and Kenwright. Then most of the mails were calling for their heads but as one of only a few asking for moderation, I was sent off.
First post back since then as I said I would wait till the end of the season. I rest my case. Bit of a waste of time as the slagging boys are back with a vengence on this impartial site
What short memories some people possess! We?ve just completed the most successful season in our modern history and they are queing up to throw bricks at the Chairman and Manager ? both architects of the wonderful recovery path our club is on!
I know these people are not truly representative of the general view amongst our following but in the light of our progress their bitterness appalls me.
Terry " I think to pretend to offer a forum for debate that is balanced " Last time I looked, there were more posts on here backing BK and Moyes, so isen’t your statement wrong? Any of the other posts I have read, that have a dig at anything Everton, there is always more replies from the pro - camp, if what you say about Michael is true, why is this always the case? he allowed yours, even though you call him a shithouse.
I agree Brian. The forum that Michael offers is balanced. His editorial input isnt but hey its his game so he can make the rules. Personally I believe that it would make it a better site if as editor he stayed more neutral (as Lyndon tends to do) but easy for me to say when the only effort I generally make regarding the site is to read it for a few minutes (ahem) every day.
Also to be fair, Jays content and Michael’s first editorial input made it pretty clear what the content of the thread was going to be - I dont see the point in then deliberately reading it to be offended, its easy enough to ignore it and skip on to another item as there is plenty of other content to read.
Also to be fair, Jays content and Michael’s first editorial input made it pretty clear what the content of the thread was going to be - I dont see the point in then deliberately reading it to be offended, its easy enough to ignore it and skip on to another item as there is plenty of other content to read.
What Jay Harris forgot to add:
EGM 2008, shareholder to Kenwright. "Sir, is this move to Kirkby for the benefit of Phillip Green?"
Kenwright to shareholder: "No"
Shareholder to Kenwright, "Are you sure?"
Kenwright to shareholder: "I?ll state here and now that Phillip Green has no intention of purchasing any part of the retail at Kirkby."
EGM 2008, shareholder to Kenwright. "Sir, is this move to Kirkby for the benefit of Phillip Green?"
Kenwright to shareholder: "No"
Shareholder to Kenwright, "Are you sure?"
Kenwright to shareholder: "I?ll state here and now that Phillip Green has no intention of purchasing any part of the retail at Kirkby."
Fact: Arcadia, Phillip Green?s company, have applied for units at Destination Kirkby. Another whopper by Barrymore?s best mate....
IMO what messrs Michael and Lyndon are trying to do is allow debate " A debate is a formal discussion in which opposing views are expressed".
The problem is that TRUE debating is an artform that requires skills that we rarely possess.True debate should be about listening to and accepting the right of someone else to have an opposing view without trying to suppress or deny that expression.
Trouble is that we care about the club so much that we think OUR views represent ABSOLUTE TRUTHS.I don’t mean this to sound pious on my part - I’m as guilty as the next person on this !
Is the site completely impartial ? Well since Michael and Lyndon are human beings I don’t see how it can possibly be completely impartial. Possibly Michael leans more towards the views espoused by Marsh and Boden. However, there is a balance of sorts in that Lyndon I think is more complimentary of the work of Moyes.
What I think makes this site so interesting is that somehow it just about keeps the lid on the boiling cauldron of vastly contrasting views. That gives it an edgy, visceral feel which is compelling. We may wish that certain people would not contribute because their views oppose ours.
How boring and bland would that be ?
The problem is that TRUE debating is an artform that requires skills that we rarely possess.True debate should be about listening to and accepting the right of someone else to have an opposing view without trying to suppress or deny that expression.
Trouble is that we care about the club so much that we think OUR views represent ABSOLUTE TRUTHS.I don’t mean this to sound pious on my part - I’m as guilty as the next person on this !
Is the site completely impartial ? Well since Michael and Lyndon are human beings I don’t see how it can possibly be completely impartial. Possibly Michael leans more towards the views espoused by Marsh and Boden. However, there is a balance of sorts in that Lyndon I think is more complimentary of the work of Moyes.
What I think makes this site so interesting is that somehow it just about keeps the lid on the boiling cauldron of vastly contrasting views. That gives it an edgy, visceral feel which is compelling. We may wish that certain people would not contribute because their views oppose ours.
How boring and bland would that be ?
In defence of Michael - I think as Brian W points out, there are loads of posts from the so-called ’Pro’ camp. No problem there. Hell, I was even allowed to post in favour of KIrkby time and again!
But then there is all this weird and incomprehensible philosophisizing around who is allowed to say what, and what the boundaries are, or who has crossed them.
And then it is balatantly obvious to everyone that Michael is much tougher on the Pros than the Antis - which makes his pretence to be neutral look silly, especially since the Antis are usually the most agressive and abusive.
My suggestion? Just let us all use this space to have all our wonderful arguments, without trying to impose various rules of one sort or another. And then spending half our time arguing about what the rules are and who broke them!
Maybe we could all agree that you are not allowed to say that a fellow Toffeewebber is not ’a proper Evertonian’. But apart from that - as long as we are not infringing the laws of the land - just let it all go...
And then Michael - if you want to throw your own opinions in (we know them anyway!) - just go for it.
But then there is all this weird and incomprehensible philosophisizing around who is allowed to say what, and what the boundaries are, or who has crossed them.
And then it is balatantly obvious to everyone that Michael is much tougher on the Pros than the Antis - which makes his pretence to be neutral look silly, especially since the Antis are usually the most agressive and abusive.
My suggestion? Just let us all use this space to have all our wonderful arguments, without trying to impose various rules of one sort or another. And then spending half our time arguing about what the rules are and who broke them!
Maybe we could all agree that you are not allowed to say that a fellow Toffeewebber is not ’a proper Evertonian’. But apart from that - as long as we are not infringing the laws of the land - just let it all go...
And then Michael - if you want to throw your own opinions in (we know them anyway!) - just go for it.
I am with Neil on this one, delete/censor personal insults and the reference to "proper Evertonians" but let the rest go. If the thread is going pear shaped and too far off topic then a quick post reminding people what they are supposed to be discussing.
I have been in pre-mod now since the Man City game because I attacked Marsh's predictable post, well over a month. Marsh attacks pro-Moyes posters every single times he posts. Balance is nice but I do feel you need to loosen the reins slightly, as it seems too much like a dictatorship sometimes on here.
Hope this gets posted and hopefully the 6 week "yellow card" can finally be lifted.
I have been in pre-mod now since the Man City game because I attacked Marsh's predictable post, well over a month. Marsh attacks pro-Moyes posters every single times he posts. Balance is nice but I do feel you need to loosen the reins slightly, as it seems too much like a dictatorship sometimes on here.
Hope this gets posted and hopefully the 6 week "yellow card" can finally be lifted.
Reading this thread has been quite depressing. For what its worth I think Kenwright could sell if he really wanted to. He said numerous people fly in and speak to him about investment and dont come back. Why?
What does he say to them?
As for Moyes. I think he has done very well but I think in the important big games such as Chelsea semi at home last year and the final, he loses his bottle. Goes negative and we end up not attacking and inevitably concede and dont look like scoring. Started the semi with one up front at home even though we were behind and didnt go two up front until two behind with the tie lost.
In the final with 15 to go and 2-1 down he swapped a forward for a forward instead of going for it. Just played hoof ball for Saha. No width- no outlet.
His substitutions are poor. If we are drawing away he wont make attacking changes.
What does he say to them?
As for Moyes. I think he has done very well but I think in the important big games such as Chelsea semi at home last year and the final, he loses his bottle. Goes negative and we end up not attacking and inevitably concede and dont look like scoring. Started the semi with one up front at home even though we were behind and didnt go two up front until two behind with the tie lost.
In the final with 15 to go and 2-1 down he swapped a forward for a forward instead of going for it. Just played hoof ball for Saha. No width- no outlet.
His substitutions are poor. If we are drawing away he wont make attacking changes.
I cannot believe people are having a go at DM.
I don't go along with him being the greatest manager we have had but he is certainly the third best behind HK an HC. The gap between us and the top 4 is probably the biggest it has ever been and money does talk these days. Yes, he has made mistakes but show me a manager who hasn't ? ask Man Utd fans about Fergie and the ones over the age of 20 will tell you of signings like Ralph Milne, Terry Phealen, Neil Webb etc etc. We could always have a load of over-the-hill 30-year-olds playing out of position, a la Walter Smith....
But getting back to what the issue is really about: Bill Kenwright. He come on to the board in 1988, I think, and this big Evertonian who always has the wellbeing of the club at heart sat back and joined in with the other masons... sorry, directors letting our club (then League Champions) slip into being just another average team, happy at finishing mid-table or staying up.
He sat on the board when Dr Marsh would sooner play 18 holes than be at the game. Marsh was chairmen and then did nothing when agent Johnson did his best to destroy us. To be fair to Walter Smith, it was him standing up to Johnson, not BK, that eventually forced Johnson to sell.
BK then become Chairman with the help of life-long friend Paul Gregg. That friendship soon came to an end, as did Lord Grantchester's seat on the Board ? an Evertonian with a lot more wealth than BK. Rumor has it Grantchester did not share BK's vision for us and would not pump any money in while BK was in power.
Then, who can forget Fortress Sports Fund buying us out? Chris Samulsen at the AGM? To this day, I still believe he was an out-of-work theatre luvie BK hired to bullshit us. To this day, BK has never told us what happend to the Fortress Sports Fund...
We then sold the best young talent we ever produced. In BK?s defence, I do think Rooney wanted to go as much as BK wanted the money, but still think we sold him for less than we should have.
BK now has another lifelong friend on the Board ? Captain Lollywood [Robert Earl] who has entertained us with Rocky. But how long before they fall out? Possibly in next few months when the Destination Kirby verdict is given.
I could go on and on... "I am talking to potential buyers everyday from all over the world" blah blah blah. I for one feel BK is living his dream ? being the owner of HIS football club ? and will not give it up. He is our very own modern day Doug Ellis ? full of Bullshit.
Ian Edwards, didn't you actually notice we made it to the Cup Final and did you watch the game? We were outclassed. Moyes could have substituted to his heart's content but would it have made a difference? I doubt it.
Let's just judge Moyes on what he has done. There are only 4 clubs who have done better this season. Would you rather Hawwy Wednap, Steve Bruce, The FSW or some reject from the toons?
Let's just judge Moyes on what he has done. There are only 4 clubs who have done better this season. Would you rather Hawwy Wednap, Steve Bruce, The FSW or some reject from the toons?
6 posts up ^.
Michael Evans = Nail-on-head.
Michael Evans = Nail-on-head.
As always BK has supporters divided on opinion. Is he "Blue Bill" or "Billy Liar"? Everyone is entitled to their opinion and the likes of Neil Pearse and Alan Kirwan are good Evertonians who make valuable contributions to this site.
However, I must restate my opinion that there are numerous examples old and new of BK telling lies and I for one cannot stand liars. Neil and Alan can both toe the party line as much as they want but I reserve my right to criticise any time I want. That is my prerogative as a human being and Evertonian of longstanding.
I appreciate as much as anyone the strides David Moyes and the team have made on the pitch and Elstone is a major improvement on his predecessor; however, it grieves me that there is total confusion and uncertainty at board level that I think the time is right to criticise.
Are we for sale or not?
Do we have a decent transfer kitty or not?
Do we have an alternative to Kirkby or not?
These questions need answering sooner rather than later.
To Alan Kirwan I would say, If you would have kept up with ToffeeWeb, you would know that this was not intended to be an article submission, it was a response to another poster on another thread and I felt it was detracting from that thread and suggested the editors start a new thread. I make no excuse for my opinion but just wanted to respond to your "lazy" insinuation.
However, I must restate my opinion that there are numerous examples old and new of BK telling lies and I for one cannot stand liars. Neil and Alan can both toe the party line as much as they want but I reserve my right to criticise any time I want. That is my prerogative as a human being and Evertonian of longstanding.
I appreciate as much as anyone the strides David Moyes and the team have made on the pitch and Elstone is a major improvement on his predecessor; however, it grieves me that there is total confusion and uncertainty at board level that I think the time is right to criticise.
Are we for sale or not?
Do we have a decent transfer kitty or not?
Do we have an alternative to Kirkby or not?
These questions need answering sooner rather than later.
To Alan Kirwan I would say, If you would have kept up with ToffeeWeb, you would know that this was not intended to be an article submission, it was a response to another poster on another thread and I felt it was detracting from that thread and suggested the editors start a new thread. I make no excuse for my opinion but just wanted to respond to your "lazy" insinuation.
Sean McNally, as for telling others to go to Bluekipper as it's much more fun than this pathetic site, well how many more times do you want to read REDSHITE in a foriegn language? Real grown up stuff that is, mate, has me in stiches every time I see it.
I’ll respond to some of the issues raised...
Chris Leyland:
I suggest you read the definition of "fraudster" offered by Jay Harris at the top of this thread. It does not require the criminal act(s) of fraud you are looking for. The fact is that some Evertonians believe he is a "fraduster". That’s not my fault or the fault of ToffeeWeb. Exposing this opinion to Everton fans who cannot accept it IS our fault, and I hold up my hand for that. Sorry.
Regarding calling other another Evetonian a shithouse on here because their opinion differs from yours, No, I do not consider that to be acceptable under the Conditions of Use in which you enter the debate on here between your fellow Evertonians.
Having a different opinion from you is very different from someone wronging you. Some Evertonians beleive Bill Kenwright has wronged them. That’s not my fault or the fault of ToffeeWeb. Exposing this viewpoint to Everton fans who cannot accept it IS our fault, and I hold up my hand for that. Sorry.
Consistency? I agree 100%. Moyes could have and should have had us finishing in the top 4 this season.
Chris Leyland:
I suggest you read the definition of "fraudster" offered by Jay Harris at the top of this thread. It does not require the criminal act(s) of fraud you are looking for. The fact is that some Evertonians believe he is a "fraduster". That’s not my fault or the fault of ToffeeWeb. Exposing this opinion to Everton fans who cannot accept it IS our fault, and I hold up my hand for that. Sorry.
Regarding calling other another Evetonian a shithouse on here because their opinion differs from yours, No, I do not consider that to be acceptable under the Conditions of Use in which you enter the debate on here between your fellow Evertonians.
Having a different opinion from you is very different from someone wronging you. Some Evertonians beleive Bill Kenwright has wronged them. That’s not my fault or the fault of ToffeeWeb. Exposing this viewpoint to Everton fans who cannot accept it IS our fault, and I hold up my hand for that. Sorry.
Consistency? I agree 100%. Moyes could have and should have had us finishing in the top 4 this season.
Neil Pearse:
Don’t blame Jay for starting this when he cited the litany of lies from our Leader. His post was more in context when the other thread spinning out of an M’Bia discussion and a number of people insisted this was off-topic and should be in a separate thread.
Your claim that these issues are "old" suggests that perhaps the message is getting through. We have seen him drop the utterly ridiculous 24/7 lie. You seem to do the same thing though: No-one (other than you) has said BK is the devil. Why do you need to make such incorrect statements as part of your debate?
Regarding defense of posters being abused, as I’ve stated, it’s about breaking our Conditions of Use, not whether the poster is pro-Moyes or anti-Moyes. My perception differs from yours, though: I think in general it is some of the pro-Moyes contributors who are quicker and more vociferous in directing their bile at fellow Evertonians who are actively contributing to this website. It’s pretty easy to snipe and that’s what a number of them come on here to do, not to debate any issues at all. I’m tempted to take a firmer hand with people posting who have no intention of participating.
I understand that the debate is exposing them to viewpoints they consider to be intolerable. I don’t have much of a solution to that because I am loath to close down threads that generate interest and discussion, just because some Evertonians don’t like the subject matter. I personally can’t stand FM nonsense threads (like Tony Marsh!), but I reluctantly post them.
You and others state you are bored with the subject of this thread and have seen it all before... yet you still contribute! In fact, many of you start the ball rolling by bitching and moaning about how horrible other people’s viewpoints are, leading you to abuse them! But I think these threads can flush out some very interesting perspectives ? I for one would like to hear a hell of a lot more from Lee Daly!!!
Regarding my neutrality as Editor, this tends to obfuscated by two ideals: neutrality towards contributors, and neutrality toward the issues they raise. The former I strive for; the latter... No.
I have my opinions about Everton FC, I’ve never been shy about voicing them and will continue to do so (although I do so far less these days than I did in the past as running the website has come to absorb most of the time available).
Don’t blame Jay for starting this when he cited the litany of lies from our Leader. His post was more in context when the other thread spinning out of an M’Bia discussion and a number of people insisted this was off-topic and should be in a separate thread.
Your claim that these issues are "old" suggests that perhaps the message is getting through. We have seen him drop the utterly ridiculous 24/7 lie. You seem to do the same thing though: No-one (other than you) has said BK is the devil. Why do you need to make such incorrect statements as part of your debate?
Regarding defense of posters being abused, as I’ve stated, it’s about breaking our Conditions of Use, not whether the poster is pro-Moyes or anti-Moyes. My perception differs from yours, though: I think in general it is some of the pro-Moyes contributors who are quicker and more vociferous in directing their bile at fellow Evertonians who are actively contributing to this website. It’s pretty easy to snipe and that’s what a number of them come on here to do, not to debate any issues at all. I’m tempted to take a firmer hand with people posting who have no intention of participating.
I understand that the debate is exposing them to viewpoints they consider to be intolerable. I don’t have much of a solution to that because I am loath to close down threads that generate interest and discussion, just because some Evertonians don’t like the subject matter. I personally can’t stand FM nonsense threads (like Tony Marsh!), but I reluctantly post them.
You and others state you are bored with the subject of this thread and have seen it all before... yet you still contribute! In fact, many of you start the ball rolling by bitching and moaning about how horrible other people’s viewpoints are, leading you to abuse them! But I think these threads can flush out some very interesting perspectives ? I for one would like to hear a hell of a lot more from Lee Daly!!!
Regarding my neutrality as Editor, this tends to obfuscated by two ideals: neutrality towards contributors, and neutrality toward the issues they raise. The former I strive for; the latter... No.
I have my opinions about Everton FC, I’ve never been shy about voicing them and will continue to do so (although I do so far less these days than I did in the past as running the website has come to absorb most of the time available).
Brian Richardson:
Your intolerance of other people’s views, characterizing them as spiteful, epitomizes the problem. A little maturity would allow you to see past the odd generalization to address the issues being raised but you seem determined not to do that.
Your intolerance of other people’s views, characterizing them as spiteful, epitomizes the problem. A little maturity would allow you to see past the odd generalization to address the issues being raised but you seem determined not to do that.
You say you are in favour of god, honest debate but your record on here clearly shows otherwise. You consistently mischaracterize and that is certainly not part of honest debate. I banned Simon Dixon because he broke our Conditions of Use. He apologised. He is reinstated. It would be appreciated if you do post again that you would emploty a little more honesty yourself.
Kevin Sparke:
Your comments really annoy me because they are so astonishingly wrong ? take this piece of shit for example: It?s the editor giving us his version by proxy and censoring or marginalising any opinion he doesn?t happen to agree with.
It’s a debate coming from other Evertonians, for fuck’s sake, it features opinions from across the specturm, just as this thread does, proving the lie to your dispicable assertions. Your failure to recognize this and your insistence on making blatantly false statements says it all, I’m afraid.
Your comments really annoy me because they are so astonishingly wrong ? take this piece of shit for example: It?s the editor giving us his version by proxy and censoring or marginalising any opinion he doesn?t happen to agree with.
It’s a debate coming from other Evertonians, for fuck’s sake, it features opinions from across the specturm, just as this thread does, proving the lie to your dispicable assertions. Your failure to recognize this and your insistence on making blatantly false statements says it all, I’m afraid.
Marsh, I was addressing Jimmy Rimmer, not you.
Sarcasm about being grown up? Your posts point to kids talk pal. 90% of people on here know the stuff you write is trash. I think you do it for your own amusement.
Plus, i didn’t hear Jags complaining about picking up his ’Bluekipper’ player of the season award....
Sarcasm about being grown up? Your posts point to kids talk pal. 90% of people on here know the stuff you write is trash. I think you do it for your own amusement.
Plus, i didn’t hear Jags complaining about picking up his ’Bluekipper’ player of the season award....
John Milligan:
You are a liar. You were never banned. You posted in December and again in February. That was after you said you would not be commenting again.
I’ll repeat what I said then because you seem to have a selective reading problem and serious recall issues. The following was in response to you condemning fans for commenting on this forum back in November, and suggesting that they should save their assessments until the end of the season:
So you were never banned, and in fact you continued to post. A retraction would be appreciated.
You are a liar. You were never banned. You posted in December and again in February. That was after you said you would not be commenting again.
I’ll repeat what I said then because you seem to have a selective reading problem and serious recall issues. The following was in response to you condemning fans for commenting on this forum back in November, and suggesting that they should save their assessments until the end of the season:
We really don?t need such gratuitous jibes that demean the opinions of the rest of us, and twist my words to suggest I am excluding you (the truth is it was YOU who suggested abstinence for others, lest you have forgotten already!).
I don?t have much time for anyone who wants to set their own particular limits to the discussion on these pages. This is a free forum for those who wish to debate a wide range of Everton-related issues... NOW! ? not store it all up until the end of the season. You can participate or not: it?s your choice.
So you were never banned, and in fact you continued to post. A retraction would be appreciated.
Rubbish; Michael and you know it, the job of an editor is to encourage the flow of debate not to determine its direction. If I was the only person who made the point that you are very selective regarding your editing and who you gate-keep you might have some credibility and I?d take back my assertions. You direct the debate like some second class ringmaster constantly highlighting and focusing upon the negative. You allow all sorts of bile and unsubstantiated assertions from one camp; give a free reign to some posters to abuse others ? but let there be a kick back and you?re on it like a ton of bricks ? you present hearsay and character assassination as if it were fact; and constantly give the impression that any view that does not tally with your own is a minority view.
As a result it is your input that unbalances this website and encourages a consistent flow of negativity that is not allowed to stand up to the scrutiny of debate ? debate? You know what? that would really be nice on here.
As a parting shot ? tell me how many people who have written for Toffeeweb no longer bother ? come on; you?ve a long history.
Now tell us why most of them packed in?
As a result it is your input that unbalances this website and encourages a consistent flow of negativity that is not allowed to stand up to the scrutiny of debate ? debate? You know what? that would really be nice on here.
As a parting shot ? tell me how many people who have written for Toffeeweb no longer bother ? come on; you?ve a long history.
Now tell us why most of them packed in?
Kevin, as you were indeed one of those writers, I guess you?ve already answered your own question.
But back to the blantant lie you stated ? and have indeed restated ? that I direct the debate.... I just want to show you an example of an assessment of David Moyes as manager that was posted on here a while back... something that I no doubt "directed", as you claim:
Gosh, who could possibly have written that? Surely not someone who was free to think and write and contribute to this website as they saw fit? It must have been "directed" by the Editor, I guess that can be the only explanation...
Absolute tosh as you well know. All of what you claim is completely false. We publish a very wide spectrum of opinions with no direction whatsoever in terms of content. How do youi explain the plethora of so-called "positive" posts on here if even 1% of what you claimed was true? I would not allow any of it, surely?
As you know full well, I clamp down on abuse as deemed necessary, most of it stemming from intolerant people like who who seem to be unable to accept that other fans should be free to voice their opinions if you happen to disagree with them.
Please stop mischaracterizing me and stop mischaracterizing this website.
But back to the blantant lie you stated ? and have indeed restated ? that I direct the debate.... I just want to show you an example of an assessment of David Moyes as manager that was posted on here a while back... something that I no doubt "directed", as you claim:
I have to admit that after 6 years at the helm his sides take very little to knock their confidence from retaining possession with good accurate and crisp passing and they seem to very quickly lose faith in the midfield area of the pitch, with the inevitable consequence of the appearance of the dreaded hoof-ball. I?m forced to question why is this?
Now, we?ve not exactly been passed over by the ?injury fairy? and have a patched up look about us... but don?t the players all train together, they should be able to find a man with short passing more often than not? I used to put our sometimes erratic performance in possession down to lack of quality players and have cited the gulf between the spending power of the ?big four? plus Spurs, Newcastle and Villa as the reason we hardly ever play exciting attacking passing football ? but if Tony Mowbray can get a team costing less than £10 million to play attractive passing football? why can?t David Moyes?
We won on Saturday, we won with two moments of class finishing and very poor defending from the opposition... but make no mistake about it, we won despite our failure in the aesthetic football department and not because of it.
Gosh, who could possibly have written that? Surely not someone who was free to think and write and contribute to this website as they saw fit? It must have been "directed" by the Editor, I guess that can be the only explanation...
Absolute tosh as you well know. All of what you claim is completely false. We publish a very wide spectrum of opinions with no direction whatsoever in terms of content. How do youi explain the plethora of so-called "positive" posts on here if even 1% of what you claimed was true? I would not allow any of it, surely?
As you know full well, I clamp down on abuse as deemed necessary, most of it stemming from intolerant people like who who seem to be unable to accept that other fans should be free to voice their opinions if you happen to disagree with them.
Please stop mischaracterizing me and stop mischaracterizing this website.
Michael Kenrick: I?m actually sympathetic to some of the abuse you?re getting in this thread. But, come on now, comparing the denial of Kenwright?s "lies" to Holocaust denial? That?s not only fundamentally incongruous, it?s just flat-out insensitive.
I can?t believe that as the site?s editor you?d think it pertinent to use the words "Holocaust" and "Kenwright" in the same sentence... A little perspective, please. As much as we all love Everton on this site, remember: it?s only a football club.
...and by "sympathetic to some of the abuse", I meant sympathetic to *you* for having to field such abuse... just to clarify.
Thanks for the sympathy, Bill. And I’m surprised it took someone so long to come back on that little slip of mine, considering our cabal of PC monitors.
I quite liked Neil Pearse’s creative justification for all the lies ? the end justifies the means...
Um, it’s hardly a matter of political correctness, Michael - more a matter of not comparing fibs about the running of EFC to mass genocide. You know, genuine human suffering and injustice... PC monitors indeed!
Wow, what an epic thread - and clearly one which needed it’s own post rather than being tagged onto the M’Bia post. My general position sits generally somewhere in the middle on mosts subjects on TW, because I tend to agree with many things written by either camp. While I’ve had the occasional sharp end from Michael (admittedly generally when trying to be positive), I think it’s great that he input’s his own views. Both Michael and Lyndon are fans themselves and they don’t always share the same viewpoint, but that’s what this site is all about. We are all Everton fans on here, but by allowing comments which simply allow the discussion to evaporate into simply a slanging match of name calling between those with opposing views would effectively end up with each thread being this long but with lots of "Your mum" etc... but perhaps Bluekipper’s multilingual RS photos might be useful to keep the "debate" fresh.
I can’t beleive the amount of shit MK’s been given really for insisting that people try and articulate themselves by not just insulting posters. If you’re uncomfortable reading potentially negative content, then please fuck off to the official site or somewhere else. That said, didn’t this all start when Mr Marsh expressly told everyone what to think until the season starts up again on a thread discussing the potential purchase of a player... perhaps if you don’t want to read FM posts, avoid them or do the same - the official site will have pics of them wearing the shirt if it becomes a reality.
PS Please don’t actually go TM!!
I can’t beleive the amount of shit MK’s been given really for insisting that people try and articulate themselves by not just insulting posters. If you’re uncomfortable reading potentially negative content, then please fuck off to the official site or somewhere else. That said, didn’t this all start when Mr Marsh expressly told everyone what to think until the season starts up again on a thread discussing the potential purchase of a player... perhaps if you don’t want to read FM posts, avoid them or do the same - the official site will have pics of them wearing the shirt if it becomes a reality.
PS Please don’t actually go TM!!
Phew! As I?m in NZ, I can come on here while you lot back home are catching your Zzzzz?s after what looked like a very late night of heated debate!!!
I see by about midnight it was all getting very personal! Now that's a shame cause 90% of threads on TW are usually healthy well argued onions and views.
Bill, I think we can forgive MK for the comparisons between the ?H? and Everton ? I think most people would be a bit stressed by midnight if you're trying to run a website ? and the mail threads that have degenerated into a slagging match and the original point has been well and truly lost!!
From reading on down, I believe the main bone of contention is that some people believe that webites use TW as a platform ? simply to express anti-Everton views, encouraged and manipulated by the editor. I really don?t think this is the case. Michael has been running this site for years now and the whole purpose of TW is to encourage a wide range of opinions and arguments from a vast spectrum of Evertonians.
I see by about midnight it was all getting very personal! Now that's a shame cause 90% of threads on TW are usually healthy well argued onions and views.
Bill, I think we can forgive MK for the comparisons between the ?H? and Everton ? I think most people would be a bit stressed by midnight if you're trying to run a website ? and the mail threads that have degenerated into a slagging match and the original point has been well and truly lost!!
From reading on down, I believe the main bone of contention is that some people believe that webites use TW as a platform ? simply to express anti-Everton views, encouraged and manipulated by the editor. I really don?t think this is the case. Michael has been running this site for years now and the whole purpose of TW is to encourage a wide range of opinions and arguments from a vast spectrum of Evertonians.
In that sense, if Tony Marsh believes Everton FC could be run better as a club, then he is entitled to this view ? just as Simon Dixon/Doddy are entitled to believe that Moyes and BK are running the club to its full potential. With those 2 opposing views a healthy and well argued and most importantly intelligent debate can then be developed.
But to be honest, lads, if your debate and argument basically consists of "MK, you're a wanker, Marsh, you're a tosser, and Dixon you're a knob end ? it doesn?t make pretty reading and just sounds moronic. All thats being achieved is that you're slagging off your fellow Evertonians and insulting the guys that provide the very platform that we can all debate on!
Remember this: If Tony Marsh posted his views and we all agreed with him, this website would be boring and pointless. If Richard Dodd / Simon Dixon posted their views and we all agreed, this website would be boring and pointless. What's really boring and pointless however is everyone lashing out at those they disagree with, lashing out at the Editor with accusations of driving an anti-Everton debate.
Most of the threads are kept balanced ? the problem arises where certain webites are able to express their views in a more articulate manner with sound arguments ? and opposing webites, unable to achieve this, resort to slandering instead of intelligent argument.
That said ? and I think its fair to say I do believe that everyone, including MK and the team are still feeling a touch raw after last weekend ? and is a major contributing factor to the above thread.
Well I hope by morning back home you have all calmed down and we can get on with doing what we usually do best on this website!! It's one of the best fan websites out there, I think we can all agree on that ? so let's not drag it through the moronic mire!!!!!! COYB!!
Sam Higgins, good sensible post. Nice to know someone actually gets it! Unfortunately, there is a whole swath of readers who only access the site on a weekday (from their work computers?), so the midnite lull is just the calm at the eye of the storm, I?m afraid. Hopefully, if they feel they must contribute, it will be in an intelligent and non-abusive manner with something that has not already been said above.
By the way, I have to apologize to you for not responding to a post you made on this thread back in April, and on a very similar topic! Shameful to admit I did not actually read your post at the time, and so did not reply to the concerns you had.
By the way, I have to apologize to you for not responding to a post you made on this thread back in April, and on a very similar topic! Shameful to admit I did not actually read your post at the time, and so did not reply to the concerns you had.
Ha ? I see I was getting a bit arsed off at the time with Mr Marsh which is kinda hypocritical; however, I think this was because from my point of view I couldn't see what the team were doing wrong ? for me, they were definitely playing for the badge in the last few months, not the wage packet.
I think it's important to point out, though, that a lot of contributors don't usually get this petty and I'm pretty sure the cup loss is still fresh with everyone. Give it another week and it?ll be better...
And as for Tony Marsh. Well to be honest he is actually one of Toffewebs most important contributors ? if not the most important, because whatever you think of him and his views, he does get dam good debate going in any thread he posts on. And every good debate needs its antagonist.
I think it's important to point out, though, that a lot of contributors don't usually get this petty and I'm pretty sure the cup loss is still fresh with everyone. Give it another week and it?ll be better...
And as for Tony Marsh. Well to be honest he is actually one of Toffewebs most important contributors ? if not the most important, because whatever you think of him and his views, he does get dam good debate going in any thread he posts on. And every good debate needs its antagonist.
Also, and again, I'm no Marsh fan, believe me ? but you will notice he does not pick out individuals and attack them ? he always argues from his point of view.
And back to the original post... Well personally I think BK is good for the club ? others don't ? well may the debate continue...!
Michael,
"Moyes could have and should have had us finishing in the top 4 this season."
What planet are you on?
Are you really saying that David Moyes could and should have ensured Everton got 73 points (a significantly higher total than any season in recent memory) whilst deprived of the services of his top striker (indeed any striker for a while), top midfielder and top defender for varying periods of the season??
Your comment is laughable.
"Moyes could have and should have had us finishing in the top 4 this season."
What planet are you on?
Are you really saying that David Moyes could and should have ensured Everton got 73 points (a significantly higher total than any season in recent memory) whilst deprived of the services of his top striker (indeed any striker for a while), top midfielder and top defender for varying periods of the season??
Your comment is laughable.
I just can't believe theres SO much negativity after a good solid season ? solid defense, our left side is sorted, potential world stars with Rodwell, Felliani, all key players on long-term contracts (at a minimum will bring premium money for these players if sold) AND only 3 players away from really challenging top 4! Yes there has been some negative things but reading this site you?d have thought we were bloody Newcastle fans!
I simply cannot accept ANY criticism aimed at Moyes. It is just farcical ? the people who think this are simply either 1) the type of people who moan/whine regardless ? they are never happy whatever and have the same outlook in general life (pessimistic, not very happy individuals!) or, 2) know absolutely NOTHING about football.
I do believe though that BK does deserve to be questioned. Yes, he loves the club as much as anyone of us, I truely think that, and in his own way I do think he actually believes he's doing the right things for EFC (DK etc) but my concern is I question the man's capacity to make the right decisions ? you might intend to do what's right, Bill, for EFC but that doesn't mean they are really what's best for EFC.
Anyway, agree with other people, if you want more of a ?balanced? view, without the over the top negativity and subsequent depression that follows, then go to bluekipper and read The Final Reckoning: Season 2008-2009 By Mickey Blue Eyes ? accurate, plenty of banter, and generally a good read.
I simply cannot accept ANY criticism aimed at Moyes. It is just farcical ? the people who think this are simply either 1) the type of people who moan/whine regardless ? they are never happy whatever and have the same outlook in general life (pessimistic, not very happy individuals!) or, 2) know absolutely NOTHING about football.
I do believe though that BK does deserve to be questioned. Yes, he loves the club as much as anyone of us, I truely think that, and in his own way I do think he actually believes he's doing the right things for EFC (DK etc) but my concern is I question the man's capacity to make the right decisions ? you might intend to do what's right, Bill, for EFC but that doesn't mean they are really what's best for EFC.
Anyway, agree with other people, if you want more of a ?balanced? view, without the over the top negativity and subsequent depression that follows, then go to bluekipper and read The Final Reckoning: Season 2008-2009 By Mickey Blue Eyes ? accurate, plenty of banter, and generally a good read.
Talking about fraudsters, a message about our chairman, Kenwright. In the last couple of weeks, Kenwright has made comments that there is no-one out there looking to buy football clubs. Since this statement, Sunderland, West Ham and Portsmouth have been bought, and now Newcastle are up for sale today. So much for Kenwright looking 24/7 to sell our club. When will this man stop spinning a web of lies, and when will the fans wake up and stop listening to all his bullshit?
Dave Jeanrenaud, It’s my opinion that, had Moyes been on task at the start of the season, this team, injuries un all, could have achieved enough to put us in 4th place. Other posters support this contention based on points gained since Man Utd, etc. There is no need to be offensive because you have a different opinion.
Think about it this way: If you’re so overjoyed about how we finished 5th playing good football from Man Utd (League) to Man Utd (Cup), how much more overjoyed would you be had we done that for the full season? Especially as the 2½ months lost were primarily down to David Moyes abrogating his responsibilities as Everton Manager. That’s the real concern here ? Why should I be happy about that?
Think about it this way: If you’re so overjoyed about how we finished 5th playing good football from Man Utd (League) to Man Utd (Cup), how much more overjoyed would you be had we done that for the full season? Especially as the 2½ months lost were primarily down to David Moyes abrogating his responsibilities as Everton Manager. That’s the real concern here ? Why should I be happy about that?
Mike Davies: I simply cannot accept that you cannot accept ANY criticism aimed at Moyes. He effectively abandoned his duties from July to October... In the interests of "balance", I?ll keep repeating that for those like you who seem to have forgotten.
And what?s with this dismissal of other people?s opinions because they must "know absolutely NOTHING about football"??? How fucking childish is that??? Henceforth, that will be added to the abuse list and I will take action against anyone using the phrase in the way you have. It is absolutely of no value to make such assertions.
And what?s with this dismissal of other people?s opinions because they must "know absolutely NOTHING about football"??? How fucking childish is that??? Henceforth, that will be added to the abuse list and I will take action against anyone using the phrase in the way you have. It is absolutely of no value to make such assertions.
Michael,
If you genuinely think that we should have finished in the top 4 last season then you are beyond help. With expectations like that you are destined to remain a very dissatisfied Evertonian.
I will humour you however by looking at the points we dropped during the period you question. Under normal circumstances I would have expected us to beat Blackburn, Portsmouth and Newcastle at Goodison. That makes an additional 8 points. We did of course win at Stoke during that period (as so few others did during the season) but we will ignore that.
The additional 8 points takes us to 71 for the season which of course still falls short of 4th place.
Tell me again why we SHOULD have finished in the top 4 last season Michael?
We do of course all aspire to breaking into that top 4 and who knows with a few astute signings in the summer and a little better luck with injuries we may get there next season.
It’s grossly unfair toward David Moyes to suggest he should have done it last season with one hand tied behind his back.
If you genuinely think that we should have finished in the top 4 last season then you are beyond help. With expectations like that you are destined to remain a very dissatisfied Evertonian.
I will humour you however by looking at the points we dropped during the period you question. Under normal circumstances I would have expected us to beat Blackburn, Portsmouth and Newcastle at Goodison. That makes an additional 8 points. We did of course win at Stoke during that period (as so few others did during the season) but we will ignore that.
The additional 8 points takes us to 71 for the season which of course still falls short of 4th place.
Tell me again why we SHOULD have finished in the top 4 last season Michael?
We do of course all aspire to breaking into that top 4 and who knows with a few astute signings in the summer and a little better luck with injuries we may get there next season.
It’s grossly unfair toward David Moyes to suggest he should have done it last season with one hand tied behind his back.
Michael thanks for replying. But can you answer the question? The definition of fraudster given at the top of this thread isn?t right, I accept the fact that under a definition of liar then BK probably falls into the bracket but fraudster crosses the line for me and does this great website a disservice to print such bile.
As for your comment:
"Regarding calling other another Evertonian a shithouse on here because their opinion differs from yours, No, I do not consider that to be acceptable under the Conditions of Use in which you enter the debate on here between your fellow Evertonians".
What club does does BK support? Last time I looked it was Everton but it is ok to call him a shithouse on here? I think if people give it out then they should take it back. Again this refers to my point on consistency on this forum.
As for your comment:
"Regarding calling other another Evertonian a shithouse on here because their opinion differs from yours, No, I do not consider that to be acceptable under the Conditions of Use in which you enter the debate on here between your fellow Evertonians".
What club does does BK support? Last time I looked it was Everton but it is ok to call him a shithouse on here? I think if people give it out then they should take it back. Again this refers to my point on consistency on this forum.
Whenever I predicted a summer of discontent last week.... I didn?t think it would manifest itself so soon.
Dear God.
Dear God.
What is the most comments any article ever written on TW has received? I think this could be the one!
P.S. We all lie - it’s part of being human. And we all make mistakes too. Perhaps we should have Sam Worthington as manager as he’s half machine so can erase these human deficiencies from his package?
P.S. We all lie - it’s part of being human. And we all make mistakes too. Perhaps we should have Sam Worthington as manager as he’s half machine so can erase these human deficiencies from his package?
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The comment below from Tony Marsh caused a perhaps inevitable off-topic "scouse Wedding" thread spin-out that has (by request) now been moved over here. Most of the postings pre-date Jay's comment above... Enjoy!!!