Some nice stats there, Brian. For me, the issue is not whether we would have done better or worse without David Moyes: the issue is whether we should have done better WITH him.

And your interesting statistics only serve as another painful reminder of how abysmal our home form was under Moyes for the first 2½ months of the season. Home form that, if it had been on track, would have definitely gotten Everton into the top four THIS season just ended. That is what Moyes could have (and I argue, should have) achieved.

I know, I know... coulda woulda shoulda... but in this case I think it is justified. Just a good job for Moyes it happened in 2008 and not 2009 ? otherwise it might have seriously jeopardised his third LMA award as Manager of the Year!

As far as I see, this article states the possibilities open to us. It doesn?t highlight negative; but that's my opinion.

However, Michael, I am sorry but I think your question, "the issue is whether we should have done better WITH him", is completely and utterly pointless. We cannot answer such a question. As events cannot be repeated.

All you're doing is encouraging argument. Radio shows like Talksport are full of this stuff, and sorry to say it's completely pointless.

I sure you tell me that this site is for openly debate EFC and I obviously agree but people ARE harping on far too much about "if & buts".

Anoraks or not, statistics are always welcome, even more so when the club is involved.

It’s a lazy sunday afternoon so forgive me if I won’t stretch the grey matter too much, but without much thought you would have to say that Moyes has proved a significant factor in refreshing the club’s fortunes since his arrival seven years ago. Granted, there were some lows along the way, bumpy roads if you will, but all said, Mr Moyes report thus far warrants a A+, or maybe that is being a touch generous, but for now let’s say what a fine job he has done since the departure of Walter.

I had no idea that we would reach the FA cup final this year, to lose to a side the calibre of Chelsea, who were, 45 seconds away from beating the eventual Champions of Europe, is no disgrace. Moyes said so himself that it won’t be long now, he even promised to a degree that Everton would reach silverware again either this season or the next, and while half of that has not come to pass, you would not berate his comments as next season approaches. I don’t expect Lescott, Cahill or other big names to be taken from us pre-season, so with the sqaud we have and other names to come back into the fold, the future looks promising.

it is just a shame we couldn’t beat Blackburn, Portsmouth, Newcastle at home early in the season and then we may of had a chance of getting 4th, but every team can look back on games and say we could/should have won there.

I think we should be congratulating David Moyes for the achievements over the season, losing only 4 away games all season is a fantastic result. The defence (consisting of Hibbert) were outstanding most of the season.

Also we have mention our goalkeeper who broke the record for the most clean sheets in a season. The major achievement that DM has all the back four and the goalkeeper on lengthy contracts which must bode well for the future. It's just refreshing that all our top stars are wanting to stay at Goodison. Not so long ago our stars were leaving due to no ambition. DM & BK must be doing something right.

Well, I think the original posting was a good piece of positive news...purely a statistical point of view but there is nothing wrong with that (hey...you can?t argue with facts!).

Michaels response was..."typical".

Personally...I thought the season was FANTASTIC....I think Moyes is brilliant and I love listening to Bill Kenwright...okay he hasn?t got a pot to piss in (at least as far EFC are concerned) but I?d much prefer him to that slimy Russian guy staring down from the stands with that stupid grin on his face!! Or the Evil Duo who can?t afford to even take a piss from across the road, or the argy-bargy-secret goings on behind Arsenal who won?t spend money that they do have, or don?t have... who knows (or cares)..... and as to Man City.... I know I?m bias but I do think there?s something wrong when a club can be taken over and they simply have no limits as to what they can spend... this includes Chelsea too. Yes, I?m slightly envious of the money but I?m not envious at all of the type of ownership these other clubs have.

This just makes me all the more proud of what DM and BK and the Lads in Blue have achieved this season...and when our virtually new signings come back (The Yak, Arteta, Anichebe, Jagz) we?ll be a force to be reckoned with next season...I?m convinced of it!

One more thing: people on here argue about our poor form in the beginning of the season (i.e. the Blackburn and Portsmouth results to mention just two) and I?ve done the same too but the argument implies that we "should" have a perfect season.... nobody has a perfect season.... the season is over 38 games and if we should do that then why shouldn?t other clubs do that?

My point is is that the season ? given all the challenges (some self-inflicted for sure) ? was actually quite remarkable. Just pipping Villa by one point to get 5th (again) was monumental alone, let alone an FA Cup Final appearance!!

Keep up the good work DM and BK!!!
(And don?t sell Lescott!)

So, David Marsden, we cannot debate about the season just gone because it is pointless? Well, of course events cannot be repeated... I think most of us understand that. But that’s not the point. The point is about continually learning from the mistakes and improving to the point where we get to where we all want us to be. We won’t do that if we lose eminently winnable games at home ? something to think about for next season perhaps?

I believe we lost them mainly because Moyes was way off task at that point after a dreadful summer in which he was actively looking for another job! Of course it can’t be changed but the missed opportunity still irks me somewhat... and will continue to do so, especially when people post such reminders.

Every team looks back and wonders what if, Liverpool will moan about the home draws, Arsenal will look back on a home defeat to Hull and away defeats to Stoke were they should have done better or throwing away a 2 goal lead against spurs. It happens it evens itself out over 38 games good and bad runs of form, We are the 5th best team in the country and given our injury problems and lack if finance that was a fantastic achievement. Lets just enjoy it and not play what if.

.........and I suppose the impressive away record was also because Moyes was way off task Michael?

Sometimes I get the impression that Mr Kenrick has a love-hate relationship regarding all things Everton. He hates the Club and loves his own opinion.

I think Toffeeweb has become more important to him than the Club (maybe it always was!) Constructive criticicism I can live with even if it’s persistent...but this constant negativity just grinds.

Michael Kenrick.
What evidence do you have that DM ’was actively looking for another job’ last summer. Did Moyes take you into his confidence? Or is this a merely a figment of your imagination, something you suspect but which you think we should all accept as true merely because you state it?

Tom Fearon, I think the evidence was there for all to see, unless of course you reject such a notion, as it seems you do. I can only suggest you go back and review some of the stories in the media from last summer. Of course they don’t explicitly state that... but what else was he doing?

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/everton-fc/everton-fc-news/2008/10/12/sir-bobby-robson-convinced-me-to-stay-at-everton-says-david-moyes-64375-22017846/

Never said he was looking for a new job, only that he thought he may have been at Everton for too long.

?cuz the media is always right, that's why we signed Shawn Wright Phillips last summer for £10m!!!!

Everton To Land Zigic & Wright-Phillips? Toffees Vie With Aston ...

Wow, MK....you outdid yourself on that one!

"Of course they don?t explicitly state that"...so in other words you cover yourself by that statement... for crying out loud...stop being so frigging negative... Moyes was simply holding out for a better contract and who the hell can blame him for that?

I didn?t see one frigging word about him being interested in moving, any specific club mentioned, or any club interested in him. Total BS.........now I admit the situation was a mess and it was a factor that fucked up our pre-season but he was NOT actively looking for another club... not one mention of that at all!

And you also said: "learning from the mistakes"... if anybody has done that it?s Moyes.... leave the guy alone... is he perfect? No. Would we swap him for anybody else? No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Michael Kenrick
You constantly fail to distinguish between evidence and supposition. If you have evidence then produce it.

Thanks Tony for finding the relevant story.

So, if you think you’ve been somewhere too long, what’s the first thing you do? Start thinking about getting another job? Especially if you are holding out on a new contract.

It’s very clear Moyes went through some sort of crisis last summer, which rubbed off mightily in the form of a disastrous pre-season and a rather poor first 2½ months to the season. It certainly helps me to understand why that happened if he was seriously considering moving on... which he very clearly was.

Tom Fearon, use your noggin, lad. We?re not in a Court of Law, we never get the full story. We?re fed crumbs from which we have to piece together what may really be going on.

If you?re asking for evidence after reading that story then you simply don?t want to believe the obvious. I can understand that... he was the Everton Manager after all. And to contemplate leaving when he was being offered that massive contract!?! Shocking, I know.

I?d prefer not to believe it either, but there you are... Should I stop believing it just because you don?t like the idea?

Michael, you are right in that everyone is entitled to their opinions.

i also happen to agree with you that something happened last summer to un-settle DM and that had a negative impact on the start of the season.

However, I fail to see how Moyes can be subjected to the criticism he receives from yourself and others like Tony Marsh.

Moyes has his faults but what he has achieved at Everton over 7 years is beyond criticism. You evidently believe we could do better than a manager who has produced 4 European qualifications in 7 years on a shoestring budget.

I would like to know exactly who you would like as manager of Everton should Moyes resign tomorrow ? and please, make the names feasible...

??There has been much debate regarding the achievements of David Moyes this past season, with supporters and opponents divided about whether our beloved Everton would have done better or worse without him??

What?? I don't see how we could have done any better with another manager to be honest ? surely no one thinks that.

Moyes didn?t actually fared better towards the end of the season. I mean we were on par with Arsenal on points. We were leading them 1-0 until the last minute. We were 3-1 up against Villa and then let in 2. We scored an early goal against Portsmouth and then again let in 2. And we can?t beat the worst away then at home. We should have taken 4th place regardless the poor start. Moyes is great but not the greatest.

Mike Jovic, for me, it?s not about replacing Moyes with some other manager; never has been. I don?t believe I have ever called for his removal. Neither do I believe that what he has achieved at Everton over 7 years is beyond criticism.

What I have called for is more improvement, a faster progression, less awe of the Sky 4, a more balanced approach to our play that emphasizes both defense AND attack, not defence at the expense of attack, which still (after 7 years) seems to be the order of the day.

I try to live in the real world, so I don?t do hypothetical very well (although some wisearse will no doubt point out the above are hypothetical... they are not: they are within the realm of the possible... for Moyes and for Everton... NOW!). Moyes is not going to resign tomorrow. If he did, Bill Kenwright would be faced with the task of naming a successor, not me. Perhaps David Moyes would suggest someone on his way out the door!!!!

Michael Kenrick.
No, you should not stop believing what you like about DM merely because I have challenged you to produce evidence. You can hypothesise to your heart?s content. However, others might wonder why you are unable to produce any factual basis for your firmly held belief. Did you train as a tabloid journalist?

Michael, thanks for your reply.

I do agree with some of your ?complaints? regarding our play. I along with other ?Moyes supporters? recognise that he has faults ? I am forever pulling what little hair I have left out at his reluctance to make substitutions.

However, I believe every manager has their faults. I bet there are Man United fans who will find something to criticise in SAF. My point is that Moyes has done remarkably well to transform Everton's fortunes on what amounts to virtually no money ? you never seem to recognise that in your postings, it is always a negative critical piece.

You are right in saying that debate is necessary to improve and we should not rest on what we have ?achieved? to date under Moyes. However, I feel a little more acknowledgement of what Moyes HAS done for our club would give your analysis more credibility, especially given that as editor of this excellent website you have a major voice.

Yes, I agree Moyes has his faults but I also think he has done an excellent job as Everton manager, the team has improved, the club is respected once again and we are progressing. I don't believe we could have a better manager at this time, that is what I am saying.

I do wish some people on here would get a grip and stop splitting hairs to the n-th degree.

If Moyes was at school his report would say, "Came 5th in class, could have done better if he applied himself more, particulary prone to day dreaming and stubborness at the start of the year".

Moyes has done well this year but went AWOL for two months when his head was clearly somewhere else. Something or someone (BK / board / Green & co / someone not opening the purse as DK was called in..) it clearly pissed him off badly.

If you remember, people were calling for him to go, and frankly at that point, with some justification.

He got his act together, thankfully and what was a dreadful start became a very good end. I think the problem Moyes had was with the club, its finances and the lack of availble funds made available to him (to do his job).

It really does get to me that there are so many people who, because we get to a cup final, think everything to do with the club and all its ills are suddenly irrelevant. Nothings changed in the boardroom regarding finance or Destination Kirkby. On a cold evening in November when a decision is announced it will seem like Wembley was just a faint memory and pale into insignificance should we find ourselves staring at a future out of the city, off the East Lancs... but then BK has all these wonderful people who voted for it (well, another version of it).

Only the other day, Ian Ross stated that for the past 3 years (no less) EFC have ignored all other possibilities and just concentrated on Kirkby... now forgive me if I am wrong but that means the vote was what??

Michael is completely correct and I understand why he gets annoyed with those who blindly see only today and not what has gone before or what will happen again. History always repeats, it's a lesson we should remember. We learn by what has gone before. Hopefully DM has and builds on a good season to make a great one.

Why are so many people in deniel about the obvious? The reason we started the season so badly was because Moyes was stalling on his new contract, this clearly affected him and the team. It clearly cost us around 10 points, therefore a chance at 4th spot. Why is this so difficult to accept?

And why is being critical of Moyes with the mistakes he makes taken so badly? We basically want the same thing, we all want to see improvements in Moyes which will therefore see improvements in Everton.

Moyes could have and probably should have done better last season. Honest, non-negative appraisal.

With the injuries and the poor start, 5th was pretty impressive, but the buck MUST stop with Moyes for the start to our season. Something happened, I won?t speculate what, but Moyes clearly wasn?t on top of things at the start of the season. I?d be amazed if anyone can event try to argue with that.

What he did since the United match is nothing short of amazing; a cup final and best of the rest again, when we?d practically wasted the first quarter of the season.

But that first quarter of the season shouldn?t have happened. We can?t re-write history and it?s too late to change what has happened. But it had bloody well better not happen again and I think that Moyes is smart enough to not let it happen again.

I couldn?t agree more with Michael?s sentiments, that now the season is over, it should be analysed, so that we learn and improve.

And 5th place is not fantastic, it is decent and honestly, I now expect it as a minimum. I don?t care about money, we?re in this position and Moyes knows what he has to work with and I think he has enough resources to fend off Spurs and Man City next season. Man City?s mega-bucks might knock us off the perch in time, but it shouldn?t happen next year.

Nothing is beyond criticism. Everton need to progress certainly. I would imagine that right now teams like Barcelona are seeing how they can strengthen their position for next year. So, not only do we need to progress ? we have to progress at a faster rate than those above and below us.

As for Moyes at the start of the season. Whatever the truth is, there was certainly a negative impact on the team that could have been avoided. That needs to be learnt from most assuredly. Another thing to be learnt is to get the incomings and outgoings of players (in fact any staff) done sooner rather than later to give them a period to bed in before they are thrust into competitive games.

As for the comments about being in awe of the Sky 4 and more attacking expansive style (if founded on the bedrock of a tight defence), I am in total agreement. Mind you, domination of ?lesser? teams and consistently performing well against teams of a similar level should also be demanded.

Apart from that, all I want is our first Premier League title and the Europa League and FA Cup and the League Cup. ;)

I agree that Moyes’s posturings at the start of the season cost us a few points, but then we might have lost games we won later down the track. It’s all hypothetical - no one can say that if we’d have beaten Blackburn on the opening day that Yakubu wouldn’t have had a celebratory dinner out with the missus, choked on an olive and missed the next game against West Brom, meaning he wouldn’t have scored the second goal, which means we might have drawn the game! It’s madness to say we would have finished in 4th if only we’d had a better start to the season as that rejects every single rule we know about life, i.e. that every thing we do has a consequence and events cannot be taken in pure isolation.

Also - re: Moyes and his contract stalling, I thought the generally accepted reason was not that he was looking for another job, but that he wanted an escape clause in there in case Man Utd came knocking. Got no proof about that, but that was my understanding anyway. I don’t think that Moyes was actively searching other employment last summer.

Yes, Moyes must take some slack for the start of the season but why are the players seemingly getting off scott free.

Our back five was the reason for fifth the season before but they started the new season like strangers, Lescott got into the England set up playing left back but was absoultely dire at the start, possibly due to his surgery. We shipped goals at an alarming rate. You can place a proportion of blame on Moyes but you have to also look at the defence and place a lot with them also.

If you review the posts in the early stage of the season there were posts calling for Howard?s head and rumblings about cashing in with Lescott.

The mood was not good, the pre-season a farce but you cannot place the whole blame on Moyes for that start, the players must take their share also.

Tony Williams.
Much as I like Moyes, I think it was the players and not him that got their act together last season.

It all started badly with a tonking at Cambridge in a friendly, many senior players missing (injury, Yobo?s brother kidnapped, Olympics etc), Carsley gone... then AJ was sold against his wishes and we started against Blackburn with no new players, a pissed-off Manager refusing to sign a contract and a couple of 16-year-olds plus 17-year-old Rodwell playing and players all out of position with Jags in midfield, Arteta out wide, no Cahill etc, etc.

What must morale have been like in that dressing room? Saha, Fellaini and Castillo came in and that was it.

Not much improved until 3 fairly late in October after the Man Utd game and 3 fairly forunate wins followed before that shocker at Wigan.

It?s quite well documented now that some of the 6,000 Evertonians present stayed behind after that game and gave the players and Moyes a right good verbal going over as they left the JJB. That I think was the turning point.

I was at Spurs the following Sunday and I remember talking to an Evertonian on the train wondering if Moyes had a future at Everton. But, that afternoon, despite losing Yak and Saha to long-term injuries we played with Arteta in central midfield and showed what we could do and won the game quite comfortably.

The players seemed to feed off that and despite the Villa last-minute disaster (remember Moyes was gesturing at the Street End and throwing his coat on the floor in disgust when WE scored!) something had changed. People like Cahill and Neville stepped forward, Lescott became a colussus again and we just stopped conceding goals and began winning games.

Remember Moyes has said more than once how impressed he was with the players' attitude. How they had surprised him. He may not have said they inspired him, but I think they did and then he got his desire back again and the rest has been pretty damned good.

All conjecture I know, but that?s my take on it.

If you?re going to be miserable, come on guys, do it properly, take us back to the great days of Walter Smith and Peter Johnson. Live in the past properly. Don?t just remind us of a poor start to a great season and ask us to sigh.

While you?re at it, I?m looking forward to next season. We?ve got the best squad we have had for ages and so much better than two years ago, it?s hard to recognise.

Brian, hard to believe all this sorrow followed your fascinating stats ? hard to believe our great teams never lost fewer away games than we did this year, even allowing for 42 games. It shows what we have to do to win the Prem in a couple of years ? lose no more games in a season than we have done away games until now.... hmmm

Never mind ? bring on next season!