Not much new in there Gerry, but I agree with you on the bollocks flying around that passes for transfer gossip, so let's see if anyone is roused by your call...

I agree wit your post, Gerry. What are our options then as fans?

There are two possible outcomes over Kirkby:

1. It happens;
2. It doesn?t.

Fans therefore need two plans ? one for each scenario. (We can?t criticise Everton for no Plan B if we don?t have a Plan B either!)

1. For now, I don?t know... is all we can do sit and wait 'til the results of the inquiry and hope it falls through?

2. Fight the club over the cheap and thoughtless design to try and get a better stadium.

Out of your three other problems you identified, I?m not sure if we can take action over any of them. Perhaps look for solutions in transport problems... I don?t know.

Gerry

Kenwright is hellbent on making this move and only government intervention or failure to raise the necessary £80-90 million will stop him.I?d love to know if this proposed move still has support. We live in a very different world than the one we lived in when the ballot was held. Clubs like Southampton and Coventry also believed the only way to maintain top-class football was to move, but neither have ever recovered from the financial burden.

In the short time since Evertonians voted for DK, Derby and Reading and Middlesborough have all sank. Sunderland and Hull have escaped by the skin of their teeth, while teams like Villa, Fulham and West Ham (not to mention ourselves) had their best seasons for years. Coincidence? Maybe... but also conclusive evidence that moving to one of these shiny new stadiums offers no guarantees of success.

I can understand a club wanting to move to a bigger and better home if they have a huge waiting list for season tickets, but we don?t, we don?t even have a waiting list. Television Money is what really counts, not gate revenue (unless your talking about an extra 20-25,000 extra fans).

There?s a feelgood factor around the club at the moment, season ticket sales are up and things on the pitch are improving season on season. Blue Bill has probably never been so popular, I?m amazed he can even contemplate jeopardising everything we have been building, by pressing ahead with this deeply unpopular plan?

Scrap Kirkby, if we?ve got £80-90 million to spend, let's spend some of it on players good enough to secure regular CL football and all the rewards that go with it. Maybe then, when we have the horse before the cart, we could look at the ground situation

Not much new, but that doesn’t mean that Gerry isn’t spot on. Everton refuse to discuss options, because of the tie-in with Knowsley and Tesco. Only when that is resolved will a proper dialogue be possible.

I support the three alternatives which have been pursued by KEIOC and others. It is worth reminding everyone of these. They are:

Plan A - Redevelop and expand Goodison, on a multi-phased basis linked with a long-term business plan, keeping much of the historic fabric and character. First phase expansion of the Park End could begin without delay, as soon as the long-term plan is accepted.

Plan B - Develop a new 60,000-seat stadium for EFC and major city centre events on the Loop site, on Scotland Road, comparable to the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff. This is technically feasible but would require an injection of new capital funding to achieve a viable first phase, not easy in the current climate, but surely worth some serious effort.

Plan C - Sharing a stadium with LFC on Clarence Dock [or possibly in Stanley Park]. This could have separate sliding pitches for both teams and a retractable roof. Financially this would be attractive. Indeed, such a stadium might be offered free of charge to both clubs, if the right funding agreement with both a private developer and public bodies could be reached. Even Wembley would make money if it had two top five clubs in residence. But, of course, it is not money that is the obstacle to such a scheme.

This debate will re-ignite as soon as there is a final rejection of the wretched Destination Kirkby proposal. Until then, it seems, we will all have to be patient. So, back to the transfer gossip...

Partly a gut feeling... but mostly also because of one or two things I?ve heard through grapevine ? and also by putting 2+2 together from what certain people have said recently ? but I think this proposal has already been approved. Apparantly Tesco were given the go ahead to re-route the Knowsley brook by KMBC over a month ago... KMBC were given permission by... wait for it... the GONW to allow it to happen. Interesting that the brook only needs to be re-routed if the stadium element of DK got approved...

Watch this space!!!

Trevor, I believe your Plan A is the only option. I?ve always felt that there is one simple reason why Kirkby would mean disaster. We don?t fill Goodison now and I know many Evertonians who will not set foot in Kirkby. Quite simply, it would be the end for our club.

Incidentally, it would be interesting if any contributers to ToffeeWeb who voted for Kirby have now changed their minds. It was nice to forget about it for most of last season but it looms menacingly nearer...

Maybe there is something in this:
Ahmed acquires 60% of a leading English football club.

Jason... what people? What have they said? Don?t come on here doing the forum equivalent of sheep-worrying... Spit it out, man! They could reroute the Alt for all I care.

Hugh... can?t see Bill giving up his trainset to an ?honorary chairman? so my guess it?s a big club like Burnley or Stoke!

Playing Devil?s Advocate

1. Support will dwindle! ? How do you know?
2. Design of the stadium is cheap-looking, no thought has been put into it! ? Personal Opinion, others may like it.
3. It will move us away from our roots! ? We have already moved once before! And say we move to Speke or Bootle, they are still outside of Liverpool.
4. It will not bring any more money into the club ? for that, we need at least 48,000 per game! ? Again, How do you know?

It was somewhat ironic to hear BK eulogising about ’Downtown’ in a BBC Radio Two programme about the songwriter Tony Hatch the other day.

Phil, It is probably the Shite; but who knows, In the words of Mark Twain "Truth is stranger than fiction"...

I can see BK giving up his chair role for another title such as President or Executive Chairman. If it is Everton, then this could be a win-win situation, were a supporter remains as a shareholder and possibly on the executive and the main financier becomes a guiding figure.

I know for one thing... these Arabs are not going into the Premier League to waste money. But, like I say, it's probably the Shite.

If DK is really the best the current Board can offer the club, then the sooner this scheme & the present incumbents are gone the better. I hope that, when it all falls through, the Board have the good grace to admit to the enormity of their mistake in ever considering this option. Let?s get things right on the pitch & then redevelop Goodison Park as necessary when we can afford to do so.

Tony Williams, you commented on No 2. Design of the stadium is cheap-looking, no thought has been put into it.! ? saying ?Personal Opinion, others may like it?.

I take it you?re not aware that the designers have failed to consider how atmosphere is to be generated there. If we do become successful there, then to compete with our rivals we have to knock down the stadium in order to have any decent expansion.

The corporates behind the goal will have to stand up when the regular fans in front of them stand in order to see. We do not even have full home support behind bot goals. These are facts ? not personal opinion. There is not even the most basic of thought that?s gone into this, which shows how much they care about what happens to the club after they?ve moved.

Here, has anyone else seen this anywhere, and has anybody got an idea which leading Premier League club it could be, wouldn't it just be great if it was us, aye!!

An unnamed Premier League club has been bought by a member of the ruling family in the United Arab Emirates, the WAM news agency claimed on Sunday.

The report claims that Sheikh Ahmed bin Saqr al-Qassimi has bought a 60 percent share in a top-flight club and that the details of the deal will be announced officially in the coming days.

Sheikh Ahmed, the report goes on to state, will be made honorary chairman of the club once the takeover is complete.

If true, the unnamed Premier League club would become the second English side to be Middle East owned after Abu Dhabi?s Sheikh Mansour purchased Manchester City.

Another Abu Dhabi investor, Sulaiman al-Fahim, who was instrumental in the takeover of Manchester City, has also launched a bid to buy Portsmouth.


Well, we can all dream aye!!!

Blackburn Rovers, I reckon.

Sorry lads, been to the pub, father's day and all that!

My love for Everton is no greater or lesser than yours, but I believe if we move to Kirkby town, that would be the biggest mistake in Everton's history. Kenwright lied to the fans when the ballot was held, all Everton fans know this, promises he did not deliver, ie the Kings Dock, and the infamous Fortress Sports Fund.

My alternative would be to move to the Loop on Scotland Rd or Stanley Dock, which would put Everton FC 10 mins walk from the town centre, this would make the city ours.

I have supported Everton since 1966, Alan Ball was and still is my hero. I have told my best mate, Obe, who I have stood with and in later days, sat beside in the lower Gwladys St since we were kids, I will not go to Kirkby, even though it will break my heart not to be able to see the royal blue jerseys play. I would rather give up up my season ticket than see MY beloved team play in that Tesco Dome in Kirkby.

Guys, more on the mystery UAE takeover from the Telegraph:

"A spokesman for al-Fahim denied Portsmouth was al-Qassimi?s target, while a source close to Anfield?s owners denied Liverpool was the club in question. "

We dont fill Goodison now because as a venue it is 30 years behind the times. Yes, it provides atmosphere and it has priceless history, but how can we possibly expect people to spend £35 a pop on thousands of tickets with obstructed views and tiny wooden seats? Build a new ground with great views of the WHOLE pitch, and where you don't have to stand in piss and you will get more fans.

I don't believe Kirkby is the future either. However, I just cant see us rebuilding Goodison unfortunately. The surrounding areas aren?t commercial enough either for an investor. Something like the loop with better links to the city centre would probably be more attractive.

You can build a new stadium to have resemblances of traditional footy stadiums and not the common "Dome" build ala Boro, JJB, ManCity, Derby, Southampton, and Kirkby. Check out Spurs? plans for their new stadium ? its very impressive with the focus on generating atmosphere within the stadium. That is what we should aim for.

In fact look at the German new stadia -they are awesome. Mostly all new builds (or totally rebuilt) with huge capacities and superb atmospheres (Schalke, Stuttgart, Hamburg, Cologne, Nurnberg)... seriously we what need has already been done a dozen times by other clubs. Don't delude ourselves that we we want and expect is impossible. Remember our motto???

Whoever argued that the Kirkby drawings didn't look cheap or generic is utterly wrong. Forget the night shots with fireworks, it's crap, its just a slightly bigger JJB sharing a car park with Tescos. The future of Everton FC... I truly hope not!

Philip Martin, just to pick up on a small point you mentioned, the thing we need to be concious of when suggesting that we should follow the German?s example of stadia, as it is done for atmosphere, is that they have terracing, we don?t.

So what works there for atmosphere won?t necessarily work over here.

We therefore need to focus on how atmosphere works for a non-terraced stadium. That?s where Everton have gone wrong when trying to emulate Koln?s stadium.

Peter Benson,
Actually some of the German Stadia are capable of switching from Terracing and Seating depending on the competition (or if Germany are using it). See link below describing The Vetlins Arena;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veltins-Arena

The reason Everton went wrong in emulating Koln?s stadium was by designing it:

a) Completely generic looking and finished to the lowest quality.
b) Building it outside of the City on a Supermarket car park.

Apart from the above, our board did a great job.

Yeah, kombi terracing Phil, regular league games are all terracing; international matches, possibly CL games, go with the seats but the seats are designed so that fans can continue to stand anyway.

Atmosphere is very much determined by whether fans stand up or not. German stadia take this into account and are far ahead in the customer services of this.

You stand up in the Kirkby design and what happens? ? the corporates can?t see the match. Stand up in the upper tier then you have a safety risk. In fact the reason the upper tier is maximum steepness is to prevent fans from standing. It?s a joke of a design.

Until Kirkby is officially dead in the water, then we have to consider the possibility that it may yet happen, we therefore have to put pressure on Everton to give us something better stadium-wise.

I agree Peter. The Board have so far failed to deliver with regards to a new home. They have made serious errors along the way and being tied into an exclusivity deal with Tesco seems to be a huge problem. How can they possibly explore and deliver the best proposal for EFC if they are legally tied to one option?

The whole Kirkby design and agenda stinks. It will split the fanbase and send this club into the depths of mediocrity.

All we can do now though, Phil, is to fight the design, ask for a better stadium ? they have to change it. I haven?t a clue whether Kirkby will go ahead, I am not aware of what I can do as an individual to prevent it. All I know I can do is fight the design. A garage in Kirkby is better than a shed in Kirkby!

Jobs, Jobs ....Jobs.

Kirkby will happen. Whether we like it or not.

Ciaran - do you mean the jobs that will be gained in Kirkby or the ones that will be lost in Walton?

PS: Sorry I can?t do that little accent thing on the ?a?.

HaHa, A very pertinent point Mr Ruane... however, the idea of ?new jobs? will be far too tempting a soundbite for the beaurocrats to pass up...

ps: ctrl, alt a.

I don't think there will be many jobs lost in Walton, possibly 200-300 part time at most but, with the RS building a 75,000 stadium in the middle of Stanley Park (and therefore closer to County Road), then hardly any jobs should be lost. Meanwhile, in Kirkby, there?s a gain of 2,000-3,000 jobs.

As Ciarán said, it's Jobs, Jobs, Jobs and more jobs ? whether we like it or not ? and at a time of great recession and credit crunch.

Jason Byrne - Are you SURE of those figures!?

The reason I ask is because on Day 14 of the enquiry, Knowsley?s own CEO stated that the scheme is not being looked at as a job opportunity; indeed, it was later stated by the applicant's own regeneration specialist that little over 300 jobs were being guaranteed in the town, many part-time and menial.

Once job losses in surrounding areas are taken into account, up to 300 in Walton alone according to the same witness for the applicants, [Day 16 of the inquiry], the employment impact on the region as a whole would be neutral, at best.

Rather than "Jobs jobs jobs!", it looks more like robbing Peter to pay ?Paul?*

*BK, Earl, Woods etc

Jason... you?re at it again, now you?re picking figures out of the air to add to your 2 + 2 and Marvin Gaye. Name names! who?s giving you these insights? You surely don?t believe the LFC Echo or the Pravda site?

Can’t argue with the detail EJ...however I would assume that there will be hell of a lot of work (rather than jobs) created for the building industry...and I would assume that will be a huge factor in the decision.

Maybe I’m an old Marxist cynic but capitalism generally gets what capitalism wants

Someone please please show me how common it is for public inquiries to reject large scaled proposals akin to this one! I am very afraid Everton may actually pull this off.